Whip Rules

[snappit]

What are the rules regarding use of the whip in the US? I was quite horrified by Soumillon on Thunder Snow. Counted 18 strikes. Here in Britain that would have got him a long suspension. Here in flat races jockeys can only use 7 (8 in jumps) strikes and leave time between each for the horse to respond.

[GMB@BP]

What are the rules regarding use of the whip in the US? I was quite horrified by Soumillon on Thunder Snow. Counted 18 strikes. Here in Britain that would have got him a long suspension. Here in flat races jockeys can only use 7 (8 in jumps) strikes and leave time between each for the horse to respond.

There are some rules, mostly that will get you a "atta boy" from the bettors.

[chadk66]

they need to leave the whipping between the jockey and the trainer/owners.

[MadVindication]

I'm sure he was expecting to get whipped bad himself if ThunderSnow finished off board.

I don't know the standards but I think 18 straight would be an infraction. Frankly I'm surprised jocks can even count them. I can't even count and run at the same time.

[mountainman]

Occasionally, I invoke something on the show I call the 'no trip, no whip' rule. Meaning not only that no jock committing tactical error, checking without need, breaking on his mount's mouth, or otherwise butchering the ride should strike the horse, but that , in some cases, the horse should hit him.

Not a fan of sticking. Have seen too many horses amidst strong , unprompted moves dig their heels in and stop running when the rider starts swinging.

[castaway01]

The main thing with the whip is the bad optics of it, especially in 2018. The rest of it gets too complicated to really interpret---some guys look like they're abusing a horse but aren't hitting that hard, others really are overboard and dirty but don't get caught, some horses respond to it while others stop. In all, the game would be better if there was no whip, just because it's another thing the stupid little humans involved are doing to the horses, mostly to cover their own riding mistakes. Still, because "whipping" is seen by many bettors as "effort", that's never going to happen.

[bobphilo]

The main thing with the whip is the bad optics of it, especially in 2018. The rest of it gets too complicated to really interpret---some guys look like they're abusing a horse but aren't hitting that hard, others really are overboard and dirty but don't get caught, some horses respond to it while others stop. In all, the game would be better if there was no whip, just because it's another thing the stupid little humans involved are doing to the horses, mostly to cover their own riding mistakes. Still, because "whipping" is seen by many bettors as "effort", that's never going to happen.

I realize that it's a minority view but I agree that the whip should be banned altogether. Without the whip the advantage would go to the horses that are more competitive and run on their own courage. What's the downside with that?

I know a lot of jocks don't want to give up the whip but IMO that is because they are very sensitive to the unfair criticism that they are not true athletes but mere passengers on the horse. They want to be seen trying. They spend years learning how to use the whip and don't want to give it up.

There is also the argument that the whip can be an aid in steering horse out of trouble but the fact is that more trouble is caused by horses swerving to avoid the whip than it ever prevents.

There are also moral problems with the whip. T-Breds are very competitive animals who sometimes keep running on 3 legs and a stump when they break down. Kent Desormeaux tells of one race when his horse was slowing so he laid into him with the whip. It sped up briefly and then dropped dead of a heart attack.

I can tell you that when I ran track in college when I was in agony from fatigue in the stretch if the coach had come up behind me and hit me with a whip he would be going home with the whip where the sun don't shine. Too bad horses cannot do the same with their riders.

[bobphilo]

I'm sure he was expecting to get whipped bad himself if ThunderSnow finished off board.

I don't know the standards but I think 18 straight would be an infraction. Frankly I'm surprised jocks can even count them. I can't even count and run at the same time.

I recall that Espinoza hit American Pharoah something like 30 times in the stretch in the Derby. He had recently been suspended at Santa Anita for whipping a filly so hard that she came back with bleeding wounds on her side and hindquarters.
That's just wrong.

[bobphilo]

they need to leave the whipping between the jockey and the trainer/owners.

That's great unless you get jockeys /trainer/owners who don't care what they think they have to do to win. That's like saying that we should leave using performance enhancing drugs to the trainers. There has to be authority to set and enforce the rules.

[bobphilo]

I have a friend in Oklahoma who breeds race horses. She always buys back any horse she sells when its racing days are over so they can retire in peace. Some of the horses she buys back come back with scars on their flanks from whipping.

[Bullet Plane]

Probably should be some rules for it...

Negative public opinion could hurt the sport.

[bobphilo]

Monty Roberts, the original Horse Whisperer has argued against the use of the whip. He cites studies done with a radar speed gun, like they use to time Baseball pitches and Tennis serves, show that horses tense up and actually slow down when hit with the whip.

Anybody who has run track knows that the secret to running faster is to relax opposing muscles. Ask Usain Bolt.

Anybody who rides knows that the riding crop is best used with just a flick of the wrist. Not a violent swing like jockeys use

[chadk66]

That's great unless you get jockeys /trainer/owners who don't care what they think they have to do to win. That's like saying that we should leave using performance enhancing drugs to the trainers. There has to be authority to set and enforce the rules.Racing existed perfectly fine for well over 100 years without whip rules. It's nothing more than a publicity stunt. And it'll just cause more use of electronic devises.

[chadk66]

Monty Roberts, the original Horse Whisperer has argued against the use of the whip. He cites studies done with a radar speed gun, like they use to time Baseball pitches and Tennis serves, show that horses tense up and actually slow down when hit with the whip.

Anybody who has run track knows that the secret to running faster is to relax opposing muscles. Ask Usain Bolt.

Anybody who rides knows that the riding crop is best used with just a flick of the wrist. Not a violent swing like jockeys useapparently Monty hasn't watched much racing :pound:

[bobphilo]

Racing existed perfectly fine for well over 100 years without whip rules. It's nothing more than a publicity stunt. And it'll just cause more use of electronic devises.

Yes, racing has existed for more than a hundred years and some horses have been abused for all the years. Slavery also existed for thousands of years and the world went on just fine - except for the slaves.

I can't believe you would condone just letting abusive trainers and jockeys mistreat their horses as much as they wanted with no rules to protect the animals. I guess you think ALL trainers are perfect angels that care for their horses first. Gee, racing must be the only business without bad people.

[bobphilo]

apparently Monty hasn't watched much racing :pound:

Actually, he has watched a lot of races and spoken to many jockeys and trainers all over the world. He is a recognized authority known for his understanding of horses.

[chadk66]

Yes, racing has existed for more than a hundred years and some horses have been abused for all the years. Slavery also existed for thousands of years and the world went on just fine - except for the slaves.

I can't believe you would condone just letting abusive trainers and jockeys mistreat their horses as much as they wanted with no rules to protect the animals. I guess you think ALL trainers are perfect angels that care for their horses first. Gee, racing must be the only business without bad people.those types of things sort themselves out.

[chadk66]

Actually, he has watched a lot of races and spoken to many jockeys and trainers all over the world. He is a recognized authority known for his understanding of horses.
I have known him and his credentials for quite some time. Ask him how many thoroughbreds he has ridden. He needs to stick to quarter horses. And you might ask him why he wears spurs

[MadVindication]

I recall that Espinoza hit American Pharoah something like 30 times in the stretch in the Derby. He had recently been suspended at Santa Anita for whipping a filly so hard that she came back with bleeding wounds on her side and hindquarters.
That's just wrong.


It is. I've seen horses urged by scrubbing run just as well or better than when urged with the whip. I don't know anything about training horses, but intuitively I think a stimulus from a whip is just as likely to take energy from an animal than urge them and that could be making otherwise good race horses tire/lose interest. When jockeys have to hand ride horses because of whip rules there is the same result. Jockeys can whip horses and see no response. So why the whip.

I think use of the whip is much like lasix, it's perceived that lack of either would lose competitive advantage. With few horses running without whip we can't see a proper comparison. If we'd see horses without whips win the big races like KD and BC it could change things. But that can't happen if so many aren't willing to train their horses without them.

One day the whip might be seen as archaic. Obviously not that I think the whip is so bad that I would boycott horse racing. Since there is not much done about whip abuse instances, I consider tossing the whip a step in progress.

People use to think breaking a horse aggressively was the only way. And breaking methods have progressed from the atrocity it used to be. It's hard to imagine people treated horses that way regularly.

http://thinklikeahorse.org/images/horsedown.jpg

[MadVindication]

Monty Roberts, the original Horse Whisperer has argued against the use of the whip. He cites studies done with a radar speed gun, like they use to time Baseball pitches and Tennis serves, show that horses tense up and actually slow down when hit with the whip.


I really enjoyed his autobiography. It was hard to see the images of horse breaking back then he included. It's amazing that he endured the conflict with his father to stand up for his beliefs and change the way horses are trained. He's a hero.

[bobphilo]

those types of things sort themselves out.

Only when people who care speak up and act to end abuses. That's why we have rules to protect both people and animals

[bobphilo]

Here's an excerpt from Roberts' book on the whip in racing. Very thoughtful stuff.

https://www.montyroberts.com/book-excerpts/the-whip-in-racing/

[bobphilo]

I have known him and his credentials for quite some time. Ask him how many thoroughbreds he has ridden. He needs to stick to quarter horses. And you might ask him why he wears spurs

Roberts' has had great success in working with racing T-Breds. Here is how he turned around a race horse who was so violent he was banned from the track.

https://www.montyroberts.com/book-excerpts/blushing-et-and-the-hallway-system/#more-406

Here's a list of of race horses he has worked with in both the U.S. and Europe.

https://www.montyroberts.com/horses/outstanding-performers/

I suspect that Roberts wears spurs as part of a western outfit. If he uses them in riding they may be used by an experienced rider if used with the lightest touch. In my riding I used a crop, but only with a flick of the wrist. Not the violent swings from the moon that so many jockeys use with the whip. Barbaric.

[Robert Fischer]

I don't know enough about the usefulness of the whip in urging a horse, or the necessity of a whip to guide a horse.

I can't form a strong opinion on this.

[chadk66]

The problem lies in people thinking the whip is only used to make horses go faster. Maybe we should ban them completely.

[thespaah]

I recall that Espinoza hit American Pharoah something like 30 times in the stretch in the Derby. He had recently been suspended at Santa Anita for whipping a filly so hard that she came back with bleeding wounds on her side and hindquarters.
That's just wrong.

Those are rare occasions. And a ban on whips would be throwing out the baby with the bath water.
I cannot stand this idea that if so much as one.....Results in this knee jerk reaction which is effect is kowtowing to the lowest common denominator.
Rules can be put into place to limit whip use to a reasonable level Canada has done just that. And they enforce the rules.
No reason why it cannot be done here in the US.
Again, another instance where support for a US National Racing Authority should govern the sport. Such an entity could govern racing across the board with ALL tracks using the same rules and regulations

[bobphilo]

The problem lies in people thinking the whip is only used to make horses go faster. Maybe we should ban them completely.

We should. The argument that whips are used for guiding horses in racing is debunked by the fact that there is far more trouble caused by whipping than prevented.

Trevor Denman has stated, "It would be a good idea if every time there was a disqualification, the newspaper should read that, “the horse ducked from the whip and interfered with the progress of another horse and was thus disqualified.” Trevor suggested that an extremely high percentage of disqualifications were caused by using the whip. Further, he said that if the bettors could understand that, they would be less apt to insist that jockeys use the whips to verify that they are trying.

[MadVindication]

Here's an excerpt from Roberts' book on the whip in racing. Very thoughtful stuff.

https://www.montyroberts.com/book-excerpts/the-whip-in-racing/

I think this part says a lot:


An Interesting Fact:
Barbaro ran the last 1/4 mile of the Kentucky Derby with the fastest time over that 1/4 mile since Secretariet without ever feeling the whip of jockey Edgar Prado.

Prado never touched Barbaro with his whip, never asked him to do anything more than was necessary. His gentle handling of Barbaro had more to do with humane rather than competitive considerations, Prado says. “If he’s running real hard, why should he be punished?” he says. “I’m a horse lover more than anything else.”

_____________

Here is an article with a good example of how people judge jocks for "not trying" if they don't bring out the whip:

McLaughlin Defends Rosario’s Ride on Frosted By Bill Finley

After finishing a troubled third aboard 2-5 favorite Frosted (Tapit) in Saturday’s GI Woodward, Joel Rosario has come under criticism for his ride and particularly his tactics in the stretch. Rosario never went to the whip on Frosted and seemed to be only mildly encouraging him, which some saw as him being overconfident. But trainer Kiaran McLaughlin told the TDN Sunday that he had no major issues with Rosario’s ride.

Frosted finished third, beaten a head by Shaman Ghost (Ghostzapper) and another head by stablemate Mubtaahij (Ire) (Dubawi {Ire})

“He never hit him but he doesn’t like to be hit,” McLaughlin said. “He’s never hit him in the past, if you go back and look. He just does not respond to the whip. He dislikes it. I don’t think things went well for us and I know it looks bad, but it looks worse than it really is because people do not know he doesn’t like to be hit.”

The Equibase chart caller obviously felt Rosario gave it a lackadaisical try as the footnote noted that Frosted…”remained confidently handled advancing mildly five wide through the far turn under his own power, angled eight wide into upper stretch, lugged in, straightened away not switching leads immediately, had the rider apply the mildest of hand rides rallying to catch on to the top trio a furlong from home the outermost of the quartet, drifted in under overconfident handling…”

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/mclaughlin-defends-rosarios-ride-on-frosted/

[CheckMark]

The problem lies in people thinking the whip is only used to make horses go faster. Maybe we should ban them completely.

We should sign a petition for people to say ya or nay to banning whips at all tracks. Maybe pa would be in help (not). It’s just not fun when I see the jocks beat up and lash on natures best animal alive.

[bobphilo]

Even if a horse first responded to the whip, after being hit repeatedly after already running as fast he can he starts to think, "I'm doing my best and and you keep hitting me, so screw you".

[bobphilo]

I remember there was once a leading NYRA rider who used to wail away at his horses so repeatedly that he earned the nick name Chop Chop Chavez. He was actually proud of this name since his brutality was perceived as "trying".

If you put a whip in a jockeys hand he will use it, and often abuse it to be called a "strong rider". Ban the damn thing and let the more competitive horses win on their own courage. I thought racing was supposed to "improve the breed".

[snappit]

Personally I have no problem with the whip being banned except for correctional and safety use. We will still have winners and losers. If you hit any other animal with a whip there would be a public outcry yet we allow it on horses. The whip rules have been tightened considerably over here in the UK over the last few years. I also believe the whip over here is different to that in use in the states. We use an air cushioned whip which if used correctly apparently shouldn't cause pain. However, a big issue is how the public perceive it. Public perception is important to the continuation of racing. The rules themselves are going the right way although I think the penalty for incorrect use could be more. Britain's most high profile horse race is The Grand National over jumps and the prize fund is £1 million and attracts large viewing figures from people who wouldn't normally watch racing. On the flat the Derby, although not as high profile as the Grand National, attracts a purse of £1.5 million. The penalties perhaps won't deter because of the possible rewards. Maybe we should look at disqualification.

UK rules. http://www.thepja.co.uk/members-info/regulatory/useofwhip/

Interesting study on use of the whip.https://www.theguardian.com/science/punctuated-equilibrium/2011/feb/14/6

[bobphilo]

Personally I have no problem with the whip being banned except for correctional and safety use. We will still have winners and losers. If you hit any other animal with a whip there would be a public outcry yet we allow it on horses. The whip rules have been tightened considerably over here in the UK over the last few years. I also believe the whip over here is different to that in use in the states. We use an air cushioned whip which if used correctly apparently shouldn't cause pain. However, a big issue is how the public perceive it. Public perception is important to the continuation of racing. The rules themselves are going the right way although I think the penalty for incorrect use could be more. Britain's most high profile horse race is The Grand National over jumps and the prize fund is £1 million and attracts large viewing figures from people who wouldn't normally watch racing. On the flat the Derby, although not as high profile as the Grand National, attracts a purse of £1.5 million. The penalties perhaps won't deter because of the possible rewards. Maybe we should look at disqualification.

UK rules. http://www.thepja.co.uk/members-info/regulatory/useofwhip/

Interesting study on use of the whip.https://www.theguardian.com/science/punctuated-equilibrium/2011/feb/14/6

The whip in racing has negative correctional or safety value. As Trevor Denman (who has called thousands of races) has said, the whip in racing has caused more problems with safety, interference and DQs than it prevents.

You are correct about the U.S. being far behind the UK in regulation of whip use. You're also right about, with purses being so high, we may have to deal with whip abuse like we do with drugs and go with disqualification.

Case in point, Victor Espinoza was suspended for days after the filly he rode came back bleeding from his whip. A few weeks later we see him striking American Paroah over 30 times in the stretch of the Kentucky Derby. If trainers see their horses taken down for whip abuse they will likely stop using abusive jockeys.