Arizona Downs

[Threechimes]

Wanted to get a take on why this group bought old Yavapai Downs. For anybody not familiar with this story here is some background. Earlier this year 2018 a group bought Yavapai Downs which to my knowledge has been dormant since 2010. They paid 3.3 million for the property . They have done some nice renovations to the existing grandstand inside and outside. The track itself is in disarray . Going to need resurfacing and there is no tote board . Northern Arizona racing has failed many times . I would actually say that Arizona racing in a whole is a complete failure unless your cup of tea is 2-4k claimers.

I've been down there for simulcasting a few times now and it actually is a great outlet for such activities but I'm 100% failing to see the bigger picture. Casinos in Arizona are run by the Native Americans and there is zero chance this place would get a casino. Sports wagering is also a huge Longshot in Arizona and if it did come to fruition the existing Native casinos would be a favorite to control it. Any new forms of gambling offered by the state has to be approved by the casinos or they can severly cut there tax obligations to the state.

Arizona got rid of dog racing and Harness racing is banned from the state . You can't even watch harness racing through tvg as they block it out. So back to the question at hand . What am I missing here? There is zero chance this place ever turns a profit on horse racing alone . They are currently fighting with Turf Paradise and won't share signals . So betting on Turf Paradise is not even an option while sitting at Arizona Downs . Also to make matters worse . Santa Anita and Gulfstream will not be offered at any Arizona Downs off tracks because the Stronach group has a partnership with Turf Paradise.


I wish them luck but this place is destined to fail without some serious thought into how they can interest people in a market that has never succeeded.

[MONEY]

According to Wikipedia,
"In 2018, the facility was purchased for $3.22 million in bankruptcy court by J&J Enterprises, LLC. It was announced on June 20 that the facility would reopen under the new name of Arizona Downs, with the intent to resume simulcasting later in the summer and live racing in the summer of 2019.[1] Arizona Downs has expanded its footprint in Arizona by opening off track betting locations in Flagstaff, Lake Havasu City and two OTB sites in Phoenix."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_Downs

[Threechimes]

Also I must note that two out of the three times I've been there . About Ten people total including employees where in the building. So why invest in a Horse track when most owners are attempting to sell tracks?

The saddest part of Arizona Horse racing is are bordering state New Mexico is flourishing with many tracks . Yet we are relegated to Turf Paradise? A run down building with no upside. Once again please explain to me who is going to want to race for non inflated purses in 100 degree weather and monsoons .

[GMB@BP]

Also I must note that two out of the three times I've been there . About Ten people total including employees where in the building. So why invest in a Horse track when most owners are attempting to sell tracks?

The saddest part of Arizona Horse racing is are bordering state New Mexico is flourishing with many tracks . Yet we are relegated to Turf Paradise? A run down building with no upside. Once again please explain to me who is going to want to race for non inflated purses in 100 degree weather and monsoons .

Not sure 100 degrees would be the norm in the summer.

I think its a good question. With the indian casinos controlling gambling in the state, even likely in the near future when gambling becomes legal everywhere, its hard to envision this is a move with that in mind.

Racing should be able to flourish here, there is perfect near year round weather between the valley and mountain tracks. The demographics should support it. But with the takeout rates the highest in the country there is no reason for anyone to play these tracks.

[craigbraddick]

I work there, work closely with the owners and am surrounded by about 75 people in the OTB here at the moment. We have just opened 4 OTB'S across the state in the last four weeks and are very much looking forward to our meet in 2019. Check out our FB page: www.facebook.com/arizonadownsracetrack

Regards,

Craig.

[craigbraddick]

Wanted to get a take on why this group bought old Yavapai Downs. For anybody not familiar with this story here is some background. Earlier this year 2018 a group bought Yavapai Downs which to my knowledge has been dormant since 2010. They paid 3.3 million for the property . They have done some nice renovations to the existing grandstand inside and outside. The track itself is in disarray . Going to need resurfacing and there is no tote board . Northern Arizona racing has failed many times . I would actually say that Arizona racing in a whole is a complete failure unless your cup of tea is 2-4k claimers.

I've been down there for simulcasting a few times now and it actually is a great outlet for such activities but I'm 100% failing to see the bigger picture. Casinos in Arizona are run by the Native Americans and there is zero chance this place would get a casino. Sports wagering is also a huge Longshot in Arizona and if it did come to fruition the existing Native casinos would be a favorite to control it. Any new forms of gambling offered by the state has to be approved by the casinos or they can severly cut there tax obligations to the state.

Arizona got rid of dog racing and Harness racing is banned from the state . You can't even watch harness racing through tvg as they block it out. So back to the question at hand . What am I missing here? There is zero chance this place ever turns a profit on horse racing alone . They are currently fighting with Turf Paradise and won't share signals . So betting on Turf Paradise is not even an option while sitting at Arizona Downs . Also to make matters worse . Santa Anita and Gulfstream will not be offered at any Arizona Downs off tracks because the Stronach group has a partnership with Turf Paradise.


I wish them luck but this place is destined to fail without some serious thought into how they can interest people in a market that has never succeeded.

Well, I work here...and there are lots of plans for the future with experienced and respected racetrack management in position who are more than up to the task. There is a lot more going on than meets the eye right now and we hope to have the simulcast situation sorted shortly.

Dennis Moore will be overseeing the track renovation early in 2019. You can see early work on it at www.arizonadowns.com

If you have any specific questions, feel free to email me: britishracecaller@gmail.com and I will direct them to the right people for you.

Disclaimer: What i post does not represent the official views of Arizona Downs.

[Tom]

Good luck, Craig.
Nice of you to keep the players updated. :ThmbUp:

[Threechimes]

Well, I work here...and there are lots of plans for the future with experienced and respected racetrack management in position who are more than up to the task. There is a lot more going on than meets the eye right now and we hope to have the simulcast situation sorted shortly.

Dennis Moore will be overseeing the track renovation early in 2019. You can see early work on it at www.arizonadowns.com

If you have any specific questions, feel free to email me: britishracecaller@gmail.com and I will direct them to the right people for you.

Disclaimer: What i post does not represent the official views of Arizona Downs.



Population between Prescott and Prescott Valley is around 88,000 total. We sit 92 miles from Phoenix with 1.6 million . What you are saying Craig is that because they have great management that some how they will reinvent the wheel?

The track itself sits way out in the middle of nowhere at the very least the old track in Prescott was basically downtown and did attract a good crowd but I digress that was 20 years ago. I would be interested to hear some of the ideas they have to fill seats at the track. I read they plan on racing 2 days a week? That is a huge problem right there . If they race on Saturdays and Sundays that could attract people to the facility but would severely destroy any simulcast revenue because competing against a better racing product on the weekend would be utter disaster . If they chose to race during the week say Tuesday and Wednesday . Nobody would come to the facility yet they would garner a good portion of the hard core track dollar if timed correctly between class D east coast tracks.

I assure you the weather will be a problem for them . Prescott Valley from June through August will have day time highs in the 90's with high humidity . I just fail to see any upside with this project. Yeah OTB's are great and they will end up with around 20-25 of them but they make no money. Paying a teller $12.00 an hour and having to lease the space or share the revenue when three guys are wagering $20.00 each is not a millionaire maker.

Yes I can understand you have 75 people at track today . Its Breeders Cup Day . I still say with 75 people they lose money today . That's before any horses are brought and operating costs sky rocket

[GMB@BP]

Population between Prescott and Prescott Valley is around 88,000 total. We sit 92 miles from Phoenix with 1.6 million . What you are saying Craig is that because they have great management that some how they will reinvent the wheel?

The track itself sits way out in the middle of nowhere at the very least the old track in Prescott was basically downtown and did attract a good crowd but I digress that was 20 years ago. I would be interested to hear some of the ideas they have to fill seats at the track. I read they plan on racing 2 days a week? That is a huge problem right there . If they race on Saturdays and Sundays that could attract people to the facility but would severely destroy any simulcast revenue because competing against a better racing product on the weekend would be utter disaster . If they chose to race during the week say Tuesday and Wednesday . Nobody would come to the facility yet they would garner a good portion of the hard core track dollar if timed correctly between class D east coast tracks.

I assure you the weather will be a problem for them . Prescott Valley from June through August will have day time highs in the 90's with high humidity . I just fail to see any upside with this project. Yeah OTB's are great and they will end up with around 20-25 of them but they make no money. Paying a teller $12.00 an hour and having to lease the space or share the revenue when three guys are wagering $20.00 each is not a millionaire maker.

Yes I can understand you have 75 people at track today . Its Breeders Cup Day . I still say with 75 people they lose money today . That's before any horses are brought and operating costs sky rocket

Prescott Downs was a dangerous place to ride.

I believe Pat Day may have got his first win there.

Not sure why you are so negative about their endeavor. Its not easy to make it horse racing, at any venue.

I hope it works out for them, no matter how tall the odds are.

[craigbraddick]

Threechimes:

Thank you for your comments.

Many thanks,

Craig.

[craigbraddick]

Prescott Downs was a dangerous place to ride.

I believe Pat Day may have got his first win there.

Not sure why you are so negative about their endeavor. Its not easy to make it horse racing, at any venue.

I hope it works out for them, no matter how tall the odds are.

Thanks for your good wishes GMB@BP!

Regards,

Craig.

[Threechimes]

Prescott Downs was a dangerous place to ride.

I believe Pat Day may have got his first win there.

Not sure why you are so negative about their endeavor. Its not easy to make it horse racing, at any venue.

I hope it works out for them, no matter how tall the odds are.


Not trying to be negative although I do see how it can be perceived that way. My questions are basic in nature and I am trying to sort out what the value is here. It could be as simple as 4 super wealthy guys who just want to own a track or as interesting as they have some sort of inside knowledge on how to do something many have attempted but failed at

[craigbraddick]

Not trying to be negative although I do see how it can be perceived that way. My questions are basic in nature and I am trying to sort out what the value is here. It could be as simple as 4 super wealthy guys who just want to own a track or as interesting as they have some sort of inside knowledge on how to do something many have attempted but failed at

And you wouldn't expect someone who works for them to discuss that on an internet forum. There are plenty of on the record answers to those questions by going through the minutes of commission meetings. However, I am not going to discuss future plans until they are public knowledge. And I am sure that is the same for your employer or your position if you are the owner of your own company.

Regards,

Craig.

[Threechimes]

And you wouldn't expect someone who works for them to discuss that on an internet forum. There are plenty of on the record answers to those questions by going through the minutes of commission meetings. However, I am not going to discuss future plans until they are public knowledge. And I am sure that is the same for your employer or your position if you are the owner of your own company.

Regards,

Craig.


That's the funny part . I would expect someone who works for them to certainly explain to me why I should give them my wagering dollar as opposed to the otb that's within walking distance of my front door or why I should even leave my house and use TVG.

Sadly enough I don't think you do work for them. What I think is you are running handicapping contests and making yourself visible by announcing races off the television in the hopes that they will give you your tenth shot at an announcing job in the states .

If you did work for them you wouldn't have put the disclaimer at the end of your post.

What I hope would happen here would be a discussion on possible motives for buying and reopening a track that has not failed once but twice. So while I will respect your opinion Craig I sort of suspected you to pop in here and give your two cents .

[GMB@BP]

That's the funny part . I would expect someone who works for them to certainly explain to me why I should give them my wagering dollar as opposed to the otb that's within walking distance of my front door or why I should even leave my house and use TVG.

Sadly enough I don't think you do work for them. What I think is you are running handicapping contests and making yourself visible by announcing races off the television in the hopes that they will give you your tenth shot at an announcing job in the states .

If you did work for them you wouldn't have put the disclaimer at the end of your post.

What I hope would happen here would be a discussion on possible motives for buying and reopening a track that has not failed once but twice. So while I will respect your opinion Craig I sort of suspected you to pop in here and give your two cents .

not true

troll it up new guy.

[Threechimes]

not true

troll it up new guy.


I'm not trolling . I don't believe he is working for them . Does he have an office there? Does he get a paycheck? Or is he an independent contractor getting some sort of menial pay to run handicapping contests for fifteen guys?

Trolling would be way different. Either way it's a complete failure as of today. Hmmm let me invest 10 million in a stand alone racetrack in the middle of the high desert and lose money . Solid choice. I think I'll continue wagering at the ADW and get my rebates . Same old non thinking that has ruined racing .

We have discussions on why we should be closing all the C-D tracks in this country . Create bigger pools and better quality racing . Yet here we have a track ready to race cheap claimers for a ham sandwich.

This isn't the field of dreams

[GMB@BP]

I'm not trolling . I don't believe he is working for them . Does he have an office there? Does he get a paycheck? Or is he an independent contractor getting some sort of menial pay to run handicapping contests for fifteen guys?

Trolling would be way different. Either way it's a complete failure as of today. Hmmm let me invest 10 million in a stand alone racetrack in the middle of the high desert and lose money . Solid choice. I think I'll continue wagering at the ADW and get my rebates . Same old non thinking that has ruined racing .

We have discussions on why we should be closing all the C-D tracks in this country . Create bigger pools and better quality racing . Yet here we have a track ready to race cheap claimers for a ham sandwich.

This isn't the field of dreams

well he was calling races in southern arizona in the past, not sure why its such a stretch to think he would call them there. but if you say he is a liar I guess I gotta go with it.

[Threechimes]

well he was calling races in southern arizona in the past, not sure why its such a stretch to think he would call them there. but if you say he is a liar I guess I gotta go with it.

Yes he calls Rillito Park which is basically a meet run to cater to the University students in the racetrack industry program . Possibly he calls some of the other rodeo meets in the state . County fairs? .

All I'm saying is I don't believe he is an actual employee of the track at the moment. Could he be? Sure I suppose so. I truly didn't want to take this to the level but claiming you are an employee and then disclaimers saying you don't speak for the track is contradicting.

If this track truly wants to succeed it needs to LISTEN to guys who wager consistently and not think that just because they plopped a track in the middle of no where people will show up. We all know no matter what that there product will not be appealing to most professional wagerers in this country . High take outs and small pools with cheap horses does not spell success in the simulcast world .

[GMB@BP]

High take outs and small pools with cheap horses does not spell success in the simulcast world .

you just described racing in arizona for the past 25 years.

[Threechimes]

you just described racing in arizona for the past 25 years.

LMAO! You are correct I did. So that goes back to the original question lol. Why take a small cheap market and break it in half ?

Turf Paradise handled around 100 million in 2017. After purses and payroll and such do you think they made money? If they did it was no way more than 3 million .


Now take the same racing product and put it up against the other track options from May to September twice a week.


Turf Paradise only survives because they race in the winter and on off days .

[GMB@BP]

LMAO! You are correct I did. So that goes back to the original question lol. Why take a small cheap market and break it in half ?

Turf Paradise handled around 100 million in 2017. After purses and payroll and such do you think they made money? If they did it was no way more than 3 million .


Now take the same racing product and put it up against the other track options from May to September twice a week.


Turf Paradise only survives because they race in the winter and on off days .

well, better to keep them in state then all of them heading to Canterbury and New Mexico.

[toddbowker]

Well, Corey Johnson is part of the ownership group and he managed to figure out how to make money with Kentucky Downs.

You also have a top executive in Ann McGovern running the place, and Dennis Moore is a great trackman, so if he's doing the track you can rest assured it will be great and safe for horses.

But what do they know? I'm sure Threechimes could run the place better .... :/

[Threechimes]

Well, Corey Johnson is part of the ownership group and he managed to figure out how to make money with Kentucky Downs.

You also have a top executive in Ann McGovern running the place, and Dennis Moore is a great trackman, so if he's doing the track you can rest assured it will be great and safe for horses.

But what do they know? I'm sure Threechimes could run the place better .... :/


If I was forced to run it . I'm sure I could do as good a job or better. Why? Cause I have been in this business for 30 years and many things need to change . If indeed they want to change the fate that awaits them and this investment.

[rrpic6]

.

If you did work for them you wouldn't have put the disclaimer at the end of your post.


Note disclaimer at the bottom of all my posts. Covering one's own ass on a Blog is priority #1.


RR

[Threechimes]

.




Note disclaimer at the bottom of all my posts. Covering one's own ass on a Blog is priority #1.


RR

Disclaimer: My posts reflect my own opinion . Yet I have to be careful so in the event my employer should see my opinion I would not want to get fired from one of the crookedest corporations ever Penn National Gaming .

[rrpic6]

Threechimes: 12 posts in your long career on PA. I predict a short shelf life.


RR

[craigbraddick]

Threechimes:

As for attracting more business, of course that is hugely important. It is a new business going through an exciting time. I have shown you links to what we are currently doing to build the business and answered your questions as best I can. From my personal viewpoint, we couldn't have better people in management and ownership than we do right now.

Right now we are all working hard to provide a more comfortable and enjoyable OTB experience for our customers than they have had in the past as we continue to head forward. Everything is a process and there are so many good people working together. We are very thankful for the customers who choose to play with us and are looking forward to offering them and the AZ horse racing industry a lot in the future. We want to develop relationships with serious horseplayers so they feel their needs are listened too and catered for.

In a previous post, I included an email address you can contact me at and I would be happy to meet you in person at the track and show you around or at any of our OTB's if that is easier for you. You mention about listening to horseplayers...I listen to them in person, through our FB page, and in person at our OTB's. I sit down, listen to them, answer questions as best I can, I educate newbies and try to get people excited about the sport and the fun involved with it.

I look forward to meeting you in the future.

Many thanks,

Craig.

Disclaimer: My views do not represent the views of Arizona Downs.

[wisconsin]

If I was forced to run it . I'm sure I could do as good a job or better. Why? Cause I have been in this business for 30 years and many things need to change . If indeed they want to change the fate that awaits them and this investment.


The bigger question is:

Why do you care?

Did they blow you off when you applied for a job there?

[Threechimes]

Threechimes: 12 posts in your long career on PA. I predict a short shelf life.


RR


I'd be a 1/9 Favorite across the country by implementing one simple rule change in horse racing . All Breeds. The first track to implement this rule change will become the industry standard and most profitable track in the world.

Disclaimer: I won't share the idea here because you would steal it . 😁

[Threechimes]

The bigger question is:

Why do you care?

Did they blow you off when you applied for a job there?

Uhm???? No. But nice attempt . My time is worth way more than what they could afford to pay me.

So why do I care? I'm fairly sure I've explained all that in previous posts but to reflect on the question . I care because the whole thing makes zero sense . Should I care that four guys bought the place and thought bringing back racing was a brilliant idea. Probably not.

Now that they are bringing it back and are set to race within six months . Is it that much to ask a few questions? Like what will be different. If venture to guess nobody here that bets serious money cares about a four star restaurant 8 miles from the nearest town. They are going to be racing two days a week is a VIP room that important?

Are they going to actually try and charge admission? That's a failure idea.

I don't doubt the talent of the people on board . What I doubt is that they have any fresh ideas to bring to the table . If your resume shows you ran a bunch of different tracks and everybody liked you there that's superb . On the other side of that coin is the question why are you here ? If you brought fresh ideas to your old jobs and they where solid ideas and you evolved with the sport your old jobs would be your current job.


Just a few thoughts

[JustRalph]

craig

I figured it out. The new track will be indoors.............great idea

[Threechimes]

Here is a little information for you guys to chew on. When I walk into a Casino OTB in Nevada . I ask for a copy of the racing form . They give it to me for free . Why? Cause they know me and understand completely the theory of customer service. They don't charge me $6.50 for the form. They don't charge me for drinks and they usually throw me a meal and every few days a room. They do this because of a relationship built bewteen customer and business. It doesn't matter if I bet $20.00 that day or $20,000.00 they treat me the same.

So if you tell me that on opening day . There is no admission fee. My books are free. Drinks are free a food comp is waiting. Basically it costs me nothing before I make my first bet and I'd say that's a business going for it. If I walk through that door and offer you 20% of every dollar I wager I'd say you better offer me something in return to do that.

[Threechimes]

craig

I figured it out. The new track will be indoors.............great idea


Nope but interestingly enough that's been tried . 😁

[ultracapper]

That's the funny part . I would expect someone who works for them to certainly explain to me why I should give them my wagering dollar as opposed to the otb that's within walking distance of my front door or why I should even leave my house and use TVG.

Sadly enough I don't think you do work for them. What I think is you are running handicapping contests and making yourself visible by announcing races off the television in the hopes that they will give you your tenth shot at an announcing job in the states .

If you did work for them you wouldn't have put the disclaimer at the end of your post.

What I hope would happen here would be a discussion on possible motives for buying and reopening a track that has not failed once but twice. So while I will respect your opinion Craig I sort of suspected you to pop in here and give your two cents .

WOW!!! Did the tone of this thread take a HARD backhanded turn.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

This has been an interesting thread.

The OTBs in Arizona that are owned and operated by turf are horrible. I have yet to see the Arizona Downs locations but judging by some of the stuff Craig posts they look much nicer then what is there. I appreciate what Craig is doing, so Craig don’t let some internet race track executive tell you otherwise.

There is much more at stake here that I’m sure will come out at some point. Think about it. Why in the world would anyone want to open a defunct track in a state like Arizona given the economics of it all? The other shoe will drop.

I hope the group succeeds and I’m sure will.

[spiketoo]

The OTBs run by TP are not horrible. As with everything you need to choose wisely and I'd recommend one of the entities in Scottsdale.I spent the BC on a completely redone patio at KODonnells where it was a nice fall 80 degree day.. Its clean, has a teller and a few machines.

[craigbraddick]

Hey Spiketoo!

Consider it a personal invitation but please some out to one of our new OTB's maybe the one at Connolly's or at Bull Shooters. I would be happy to meet you there and discuss what we can do to enhance your playing experience and listen to your ideas to improve what we can do moving forward.

Regards,

Craig.

[spiketoo]

Much obliged Craig but obviously location is a big factor for me. I have 3 TP OTBs in Scottsdale w/n 10 miles of me currently.

[Threechimes]

This has been an interesting thread.

The OTBs in Arizona that are owned and operated by turf are horrible. I have yet to see the Arizona Downs locations but judging by some of the stuff Craig posts they look much nicer then what is there. I appreciate what Craig is doing, so Craig don’t let some internet race track executive tell you otherwise.

There is much more at stake here that I’m sure will come out at some point. Think about it. Why in the world would anyone want to open a defunct track in a state like Arizona given the economics of it all? The other shoe will drop.

I hope the group succeeds and I’m sure will.



Internet executive lol! You just asked the same question I've asked ten times but in a different way. The question you asked has faith attached to it.

[Threechimes]

Much obliged Craig but obviously location is a big factor for me. I have 3 TP OTBs in Scottsdale w/n 10 miles of me currently.

Here is the problem they face . Thank you for posting . This guy has three otbs within ten miles of his front door. Also I'm sure he has an internet connection. So offering to meet him at one of your otbs is simply not enough to entice him . Now offer him a 5% rebate on live bets made at your otb and I'd guess he would show up.

If they had some new idea on how to attract new blood into the offtracks they would have implemented it already . You simply can't saturate an already thin market with new locations and expect people to stumble into the game.

Now I've heard rumors about a players club. That's great if it is a substantial rewards system and not a penny on the dollar type casino program. In all reality if this was done correctly they could put turf Paradise out of business . I'd be fine with that since they can't even agree to share signals .

[Threechimes]

This has been an interesting thread.

The OTBs in Arizona that are owned and operated by turf are horrible. I have yet to see the Arizona Downs locations but judging by some of the stuff Craig posts they look much nicer then what is there. I appreciate what Craig is doing, so Craig don’t let some internet race track executive tell you otherwise.

There is much more at stake here that I’m sure will come out at some point. Think about it. Why in the world would anyone want to open a defunct track in a state like Arizona given the economics of it all? The other shoe will drop.

I hope the group succeeds and I’m sure will.



MPJ: The reason most of TP off tracks are a complete failure is they gave up a long time ago caring about the player. My off track is in a busy bar . There is a teller and a self serve machine. There is no place to sit and five total televisions. So if ten tracks are running you can watch up to five. One of the televisions has been broken for a year. It has a bad picture. What does it tell you as a horse player that instead of replacing a $250.00 TV . They decided to let it go . LMAO!!!.

When the bar is busy on Friday and Saturday I assure you it's the last place you would want to watch and wager at. Turf Paradise is a complete abomination of what a track should be. They run 8 races with an average field size of 7-8 horses . Half of the field can be tossed due to misclassification or age. Usually it's a match race between 3/5 and 8/5 . On the off chance a horse fires at decent odds . The pick 3-4 wagers still have zero value because of small pools.

Arizona Downs has the opportunity to shut Turf Paradise doors if they chose to do things correctly or at the very least force them into a competition war for the dwindling wagering dollar in this state.

[Track Collector]

Here is a little information for you guys to chew on. When I walk into a Casino OTB in Nevada . I ask for a copy of the racing form . They give it to me for free . Why? Cause they know me and understand completely the theory of customer service. They don't charge me $6.50 for the form. They don't charge me for drinks and they usually throw me a meal and every few days a room. They do this because of a relationship built bewteen customer and business. It doesn't matter if I bet $20.00 that day or $20,000.00 they treat me the same.

So if you tell me that on opening day . There is no admission fee. My books are free. Drinks are free a food comp is waiting. Basically it costs me nothing before I make my first bet and I'd say that's a business going for it. If I walk through that door and offer you 20% of every dollar I wager I'd say you better offer me something in return to do that.


The key word here is Casino OTB, and you happen to be a lucky beneficiary. Those spinning bandits that require almost no thinking to play sure do bring in a lot of revenue. I suspect that if your place only had an OTB with no other lucrative forms of gambling revenue, you would not be getting free drinks and a racing form by wagering $20 per day. Customer Service can not operate in a vacuum outside of an understanding of sound business practices.

[Threechimes]

The key word here is Casino OTB, and you happen to be a lucky beneficiary. Those spinning bandits that require almost no thinking to play sure do bring in a lot of revenue. I suspect that if your place only had an OTB with no other lucrative forms of gambling revenue, you would not be getting free drinks and a racing form by wagering $20 per day. Customer Service can not operate in a vacuum outside of an understanding of sound business practices.

I agree to disagree. Let's actually break this down further . How many tracks in the USA have casinos attached to them? How many of those tracks give out the racing form or program free? None!

Let's look at the fresh blood market horse racing should go after. The young guys betting sports. Of I want to bet a football game. I can go online and get all the information I need to make a betting choice for FREE. Player and team and weather and trends etc etc is all available to me for free. I make my choice bet $110.00 to win $100.00

Now let's look at racing . If I want information I have to pay $6.50 for it . If I bet the same even money wager at the track . Now I'm paying 24% to make the same wager . Not to mention I have to beat a certain amount of other horses and trainers and who is juiced and who is not . I have to beat the jockeys or jockey who makes a bad decision. So beyond all these variables why the hell would I pay 24% to do that?


So please make a case for why anybody would do that who is new to the game. They won't . So how do we convert a certain amount of players to the game each year to grow the player pool?

Well the first thing is to get rid of all the crusty old non thinking idiots that run the game. No matter how you slice it you have to cut your take . You have to give people a logical and sound reason to wager.

The way you explain it is why should we give things out if we have no casino . Because nobody who is new to the game is going to buy information . Why? Cause they probably are not coming back. Holding race seminars for new players is stupid. It's way too confusing for them and half of them would need a ten week course . Racing has always made the huge mistake of trying to cater to the Average fan . When what they should be doing and done is cater to the guy who is there every day. The guy who knows guys who can be converted into hard core players.

Let's face facts . Hard core race gamblers are not fans . Me personally could care less about Derby's or Cups . Horse of the year awards . Blah! . I don't give a shit about horses getting hurt or jockeys getting hurt. The only thing as a Gambler I care about is the next soft spot I can find to wager my money on. Positive expected value .

I'm the guy that keeps this game running . I'm the guy who puts $200.00 into the pool on a Monday afternoon. There are many guys like me out here . But as long as the tracks decide to give grandma a buffet for playing $20.00 in penny slots and not guys like me . Then my wagering dollar goes to people who earn it . Like the ADW that offer me rebates and the sports books who give me a form and comps .


So to answer the question . For a track to charge me for a racing form is pathetic. Give it to me and I'll wager that $6.50 ten times over . Make me pay for it and I don't show up.

[sour grapes]

id call you a loser degenerate gambler if you dont care if the jockey or horses get hurt.i agree to a new gambler to fork over the money just to get in to wager is ridiculous and once the older patrons die off there will be no one left.

[Zman179]

WOW!!! Did the tone of this thread take a HARD backhanded turn.

You are NOT kidding!

[Threechimes]

id call you a loser degenerate gambler if you dont care if the jockey or horses get hurt.i agree to a new gambler to fork over the money just to get in to wager is ridiculous and once the older patrons die off there will be no one left.


This an opinion and you are entitled to it. Yet trainers run and race hurt and crippled and sick horses everyday at D tracks . Do you call them losers? Do you call track management losers when they turn a blind eye to race fixing? To you call jockeys who go wide on the turn and whip right handed to make it appear they are trying losers? How about the state commission that takes bribes from owners and trainers ? Are they losers?

This game is chock full of people you call losers . When you step into a racetrack 99% of staff and customers are losers .

So while the opinion you hold is fine with me . I simply don't care if a horse snaps a leg or drops dead with a heart attacks during a race and furthermore I could care even less about the passenger said horse has with him.

You seem like the type of person who would get scammed and then not call the police because you are afraid .

[ubercapper]

The people that run the track are very good business people. Corey Johnson, for example, understands all the various groups - stakeholders, constituents and the betting customer. Corey is a handicapper, horse owner, bettor and plays in contests. He has managed Lone Star, manages Kentucky Downs and now is one of the principals at Arizona Downs. C J (his son, who owns horses, bets and plays in contests) is also one of those in charge of Kentucky Downs and helped put it on the map.

My best guess (and I have NO inside information) is the first step is to run a meeting, perhaps two, three or more, and help the circuit, also establishing a brand name for Arizona Downs.

Then at some point they will attempt to establish Historical Horse Racing (HHR). If the pari-mutuel regulations in Arizona are similar to other states, they will be able to get HHR at Arizona Downs. Of course there will be court challenges, but in only a couple of states have those challenges succeeded. When legislators see the $$ flowing into the state treasury in pari-mutuel taxes and corporate taxes, they will get on board.

My belief is they're playing the long game just like they did at Kentucky Downs.

[Threechimes]

The people that run the track are very good business people. Corey Johnson, for example, understands all the various groups - stakeholders, constituents and the betting customer. Corey is a handicapper, horse owner, bettor and plays in contests. He has managed Lone Star, manages Kentucky Downs and now is one of the principals at Arizona Downs. C J (his son, who owns horses, bets and plays in contests) is also one of those in charge of Kentucky Downs and helped put it on the map.

My best guess (and I have NO inside information) is the first step is to run a meeting, perhaps two, three or more, and help the circuit, also establishing a brand name for Arizona Downs.

Then at some point they will attempt to establish Historical Horse Racing (HHR). If the pari-mutuel regulations in Arizona are similar to other states, they will be able to get HHR at Arizona Downs. Of course there will be court challenges, but in only a couple of states have those challenges succeeded. When legislators see the $$ flowing into the state treasury in pari-mutuel taxes and corporate taxes, they will get on board.

My belief is they're playing the long game just like they did at Kentucky Downs.


That sounds like a fine plan run by people who are somewhat in touch with the market . You do understand that historical race machines only work in a market like Kentucky that has ZERO existing casinos? You could drop 300 historical race machines into Arizona Downs today and you would still hear crickets .

There is no market here for those. We have full blown casinos every 50 miles in this state . The tribes that run those casinos will never allow it. The law in Arizona is clear . Any new forms of gambling introduced has to be approved by the collective tribal casinos or they can cut there tax obligations to the state itself . Don't think for a second that the state of Arizona would allow there racetracks that contribute next to nothing in revenue to do something that would put a single penny of that at risk.

We are talking about a state that has banned harness racing . Do you understand? Dog racing is gone . The projected yearly tax revenue on sports gambling to the state is projected to be 2.3 million. Do you see how small a number that is?

There is a huge difference between running a 3 week boutique meet in the birth place of horse racing with blue blood full fields and top jockeys as opposed to running a 90 day meet in the high desert with cheap claimers and apprentice jocks and has beens

[spiketoo]

And let's just add that AZ did not allow online ADW wagering forever. Then they did a few years back. Then they changed their mind.

Gaming Div of Racing is an absolute joke here yet no gambler is laughing...

[Threechimes]

And let's just add that AZ did not allow online ADW wagering forever. Then they did a few years back. Then they changed their mind.

Gaming Div of Racing is an absolute joke here yet no gambler is laughing...



100% : Arizona gave up control of the gaming industry when the Native American casinos promised them all the tax revenue with zero investment.

This group has got themselves into a track with zero upside. While they may be able to turn a profit with perfect post time placement on perfect days . Yet for some reason I see them competing on a day like today against the Fingers Lakes and Portland Meadows of the racing world .

Certainly this will fail!

[PaceAdvantage]

Are you claiming you live in or near Arizona?

Cause if you are, I claim you are a liar.

[Threechimes]

Are you claiming you live in or near Arizona?

Cause if you are, I claim you are a liar.


Considering you run this site. Would it be so hard to see my IP where I log in from. Calling me a liar is classy . I live 8 miles from this new project called Arizona Downs . What else would you like me to tell you about Arizona and the pathetic state of racing here?

[Otis11]

Pardon me for derailing the arguments. :)

Curious, what is the rationale for AZ not allowing harness racing?

[Threechimes]

Arizona
Arizona residents are only able to wager on tracks offered by Turf Paradise. You will not be able to wager on any tracks in Arizona or any harness tracks.

Arizona residents are not able to wager online. You may access your account online for handicapping, video streaming, and deposit/withdrawal purposes, but wagers must be placed through our automated telephone wagering system, which is available at 1-888-884-9243. You will not be able to access your account on mobile devices, such as smartphones and tablets.

Arizona residents may not cancel Win wagers $300 or over. Win wagers $299 and below may be canceled online or by calling our Customer Relations department at 1-888-752-9884. All other wager types are subject to TVG's standard wager cancellation policies.

I can't find the reason . I am still looking . I know I had read before why but as you can see above. Those are the laws TVG has to abide by. There is no place in Arizona that you can go and wager on Harness Racing. TVG blocks out all tracks so I can't even watch it without going to the actual tracks websites .

Simply put it makes no sense . There use to be a Harness track in Phoenix . It raced 2 years in the mid 60's and finally was demolished last year . It sat there for 53 years unused????

http://www.phoenixtrottingpark.com/history/


As I stated before the Indian Tribes have a strangle hold on all gaming in this state .Nothing new as far as gaming is coming to the tracks without there approval. End of story

[Tom]

Sad how the game is strangled by idiot states left and right.

This is a prefect reason why I fully support off-shore and illegal bookmaking. If you accept the risk, screw the states and their revenue.

[spiketoo]

Arizona
...
As I stated before the Indian Tribes have a strangle hold on all gaming in this state .Nothing new as far as gaming is coming to the tracks without there approval. End of story

Actually I'm not sure the tribes had a whole lot to do with with ADW fiasco that lasted for all of a couple years or so. Had a convo with the GM of TP and really it was just the sheer lack of volume coming from AZ churn. Think he said TP got like 5% or so from ADW bets but they can get 15% from their OTBs. If this really is true not sure what kind of volume they projected that could make up this diff.

Someone here actually said they had OTBs in a couple of the tribes casinos back in the 90s or so.

FTR, I use ADWs here in AZ. If they get pissy I just use a VPN. They don't seem to mind what state account funding comes from.

[Threechimes]

Actually I'm not sure the tribes had a whole lot to do with with ADW fiasco that lasted for all of a couple years or so. Had a convo with the GM of TP and really it was just the sheer lack of volume coming from AZ churn. Think he said TP got like 5% or so from ADW bets but they can get 15% from their OTBs. If this really is true not sure what kind of volume they projected that could make up this diff.

Someone here actually said they had OTBs in a couple of the tribes casinos back in the 90s or so.

FTR, I use ADWs here in AZ. If they get pissy I just use a VPN. They don't seem to mind what state account funding comes from.

Agreed about ADW and tribal council's . I guess what I am saying is Arizona Downs is hanging it's hat on Historical race machines and Sports wagering. It has been proven twice that the current wagering public in Prescott and Prescott Valley and surrounding areas can not support a stand alone race track . They simply will not be able to garner enough interest in the sport itself . Certain days i'm sure will be busy but a 90 day meet racing 2-3 days a week without additional revenue will bleed money for sure. I had said I have been there and I like what they have done to the place. Super simulcast room geared for the player but the times i have been there . More employees than customers.

[PaceAdvantage]

Considering you run this site. Would it be so hard to see my IP where I log in from.Exactly.

Speaking of classy...kettle meet pot.

[Threechimes]

Exactly.

Speaking of classy...kettle meet pot.



Huh: Not exactly sure what that is suppose to even mean . Possibly you don't care for my opinions on certain subjects. Saying I am a liar about living in AZ makes you look like an idiot

[AstrosFan]

Huh: Not exactly sure what that is suppose to even mean . Possibly you don't care for my opinions on certain subjects. Saying I am a liar about living in AZ makes you look like an idiot

:headbanger:

[spiketoo]

Just noticed they look like they're gonna have live racing starting in late May.

Nothing disparaging Crag, but the condition book looks like all the nags from down here at TP will be the main forte there. Any intel on what your takeout is going to be?

[craigbraddick]

Just noticed they look like they're gonna have live racing starting in late May.

Nothing disparaging Crag, but the condition book looks like all the nags from down here at TP will be the main forte there. Any intel on what your takeout is going to be?

Hi Spiketoo!

I chose to leave AZD at the end of January as I am now fully involved in writing, calling races and doing TV work for National Steeplechase Association events as well as doing social media work for related entities in the steeplechasing world.

Speaking of which of May 24 and May 25, there is a huge steeplechase at Fair Hill in MD and on May 25, there will be wagering available. Anyone on Paceadvantage who would like to come out, send me a PM and I will ensure they are well taken care of.

Thanks,

Craig.

[GMB@BP]

Michael Wrona calling the races there this summer.

I will be up there for a day and will take in the races, should be fun.

[deelo]

Michael Wrona calling the races there this summer.

I will be up there for a day and will take in the races, should be fun.

That's a pretty good get. Rrrracing.

And I didn't read this entire thread so maybe it's already been addressed. But is the opening post mistaken? Arizona Downs is having a Gulfstream Park contest tomorrow so clearly they aren't blocked from Stronach Properties right?

[spiketoo]

That's a pretty good get. Rrrracing.

And I didn't read this entire thread so maybe it's already been addressed. But is the opening post mistaken? Arizona Downs is having a Gulfstream Park contest tomorrow so clearly they aren't blocked from Stronach Properties right?

Best I can tell looking at their simul schedule is that they can show TSG tracks at their main plant but not at any of the offsite OTB locales.

Guess the Turf Paradise mob won that one.

[Run Nicholas Run]

I used to drive down from Goldfield and go for the full week of racing when it was four days and the saturday to tuesday format worked well, but now
only two days of weekend races according to the condition book Ill take a pass
and wont even attempt to go , will only be one season of racing anyway you can tell this will be a FLOP, you know things will be bad if Carl the truth williams - truth is he sucks , and donnie french are getting mounts as go to riders.
Dennis Collins is injured, Vince G retired and Miguel Hernandez trains in NM.
Tony Maiucci and Joe Durigon coming back to ride,and now this guy Mike Wronga calling instead of bringing back Boomer Wry?

[12/ALL/ALL]

I wish the people involved with Arizona Downs nothing but the best of luck. Having said that, it is my firm belief that the racino business model is the only one that would work at this kind of track. Since this will never happen in Arizona, I fear that success is unlikely. This is the state of the game that all of us love in 2019 as old horseplayers like me die and are replaced by young casino gamblers. It's all very sad.

[Thomas Roulston]

Is there going to be a turf course?

It is a huge boost to have one in the 21st Century - especially in an arid or semi-arid climate, where few races would be taken off the turf.

[spiketoo]

Ugh. Just got their takeouts from them.


WPS 19.75
EXA 21.75
TRI/SUP 25.8
DBL 21.8
PK3/4/5 25.8

[biggestal99]

Ugh. Just got their takeouts from them.


WPS 19.75
EXA 21.75
TRI/SUP 25.8
DBL 21.8
PK3/4/5 25.8


I'd play it on the exchange for 12% commission on winning bets like I did on Turf Paradise.


Allan

[schorses]

Did they change anything about the track surface or dimensions or is it the same as when it was Yavapai?

[46zilzal]

Michael Wrona calling the races there this summer.

I will be up there for a day and will take in the races, should be fun.

I truly wish he would replace the fellow currently yelling out the play by play at TUP......Brand X

[46zilzal]

Is there going to be a turf course?

It is a huge boost to have one in the 21st Century - especially in an arid or semi-arid climate, where few races would be taken off the turf.

In the early to middle summer heat? surely you jest

[spiketoo]

In the early to middle summer heat? surely you jest

Don't confuse with PHX and TP. Prescott elevation is about 4000' above PHX. Avg summer temps are just about a few degrees above DM and SAR.

[46zilzal]

Don't confuse with PHX and TP. Prescott elevation is about 4000' above PHX. Avg summer temps are just about a few degrees above DM and SAR.

AND I have been to all 4....I just about passed out several times at both Del Mar and Saratoga

[biggestal99]

Don't confuse with PHX and TP. Prescott elevation is about 4000' above PHX. Avg summer temps are just about a few degrees above DM and SAR.


well lets see I went to the accuweather website and looked up historical averages on August 3 (mid summer). all tracks racing that day



Prescott Valley, AZ 87
Oceanport, NJ 84
Saratoga Springs, NY 80
Del Mar, CA 75


Allan

[spiketoo]

Did TheGoogle (thx Prez Bush) and this is what I came up with - as evidenced above, YMMV.

Avg Aug Temp
Prescott 85
DelMar 83
Saratoga Springs 82

[elhelmete]

Did they change anything about the track surface or dimensions or is it the same as when it was Yavapai?

This is a first...first post, member for 8 years!:headbanger::headbanger:

[GMB@BP]

well lets see I went to the accuweather website and looked up historical averages on August 3 (mid summer). all tracks racing that day



Prescott Valley, AZ 87
Oceanport, NJ 84
Saratoga Springs, NY 80
Del Mar, CA 75


Allan

With little to no humidity I should point out.

[castaway01]

With little to no humidity I should point out.

And little to no rain from April to June, which is probably the main issue with the cost/expense of keeping a turf course alive and functioning that makes it not worth it.

[DGroundhog]

Well, Corey Johnson is part of the ownership group and he managed to figure out how to make money with Kentucky Downs.

You also have a top executive in Ann McGovern running the place, and Dennis Moore is a great trackman, so if he's doing the track you can rest assured it will be great and safe for horses.

But what do they know? I'm sure Threechimes could run the place better .... :/

OMG that is hilarious. Even Todd has had enough of the chronic complainers.

I feel liberated now.

It's laughable (and quite pathetic) that people actually trying to bring racing back are being criticized. I guess everybody should let the sport die and then you will all be happy?

Best of Luck, AZ Downs! I will be playing a few races just for the haters.