CBS 60 Minutes no stranger to forged documents

[ElKabong]

http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110005611

......."60 Minutes" may have a sterling reputation in journalism, but it has been burned before by forged documents. In 1997 it broadcast a report alleging that U.S. Customs Service inspectors looked the other way as drugs crossed the Mexican border at San Diego. The story's prize exhibit was a memo from Rudy Comacho, head of the San Diego customs office, ordering that vehicles belonging to one trucking company should be given special leniency in crossing the border. The memo was given to "60 Minutes" by Mike Horner, a former customs inspector who had left the service five years earlier. When asked by CBS for additional proof, he sent another copy with an official stamp on it.

CBS did not interview Mr. Camacho for its story. "It was horrible for him," says Bill Anthony, at the time head of public affairs for the Customs Service. "For 18 months, internal affairs and the Secret Service had him under a cloud while they established that Horner had forged the document out of bitterness over how he'd been treated." In 2000, Mr. Horner admitted he forged the memo "for media exposure" and was sentenced to 10 months in federal prison. "Mr. Camacho's reputation was tarnished significantly," Judge Judith Keep noted.

Mr. Camacho sued CBS and eventually settled for an undisclosed sum. In 1999 Leslie Stahl read an apology on the air: "We have concluded we were deceived, and ultimately, so were you, the viewers."


If it turns out that the Killian memos are indeed forgeries, the Internet will have played an invaluable role in exposing the fraud much faster than the 18 months Mr. Camacho had to twist in the wind. Free Republic, a Web bulletin board, raised early warning signals about the memos within hours of last Wednesday's "60 Minutes" broadcast. Powerlineblog.com, a site run by three lawyers, reposted those comments, which were amplified by indcjournal.com. Then design expert Charles Johnson, who blogs at littlegreenfootballs.com, retyped one of the memos using Microsoft Word and showed them to be a perfect typographic match.

A defensive Dan Rather went on the air Friday to complain of what he called a "counterattack" from "partisan political operatives." In reality, traditional journalism now has a new set of watchdogs in the "blogosphere." In the words of blogger Mickey Kaus, they can trade information and publicize it "fast enough to have real-world consequences." Sure, blogs can be transmission belts for errors, vicious gossip and last-minute disinformation efforts. But they can also correct themselves almost instantaneously--in sharp contrast with CBS's stonewalling.

[Lefty]

Dan Rather's Bush Hating goes back to the old man. When GH Bush ran against Dukakis, Rather "grilled" the old man about the non existent "October Surprise" and Bush's denial wasn't good enough for the Rather as he continued yelling at him. Yeah, old Dan a "journalist alright" He's even been known to attend Dem fundraisers. Objective? I think not.

[Secretariat]

Wait a minute Lefty..you got the damn liberal ACLU defending Rush on his drug charges? Is Rush a lib?

[Lefty]

What the hell has the ACLU got to do with Rather yelling at Geo H Bush? And no, I am not responsible for that. Guess you don't remember perky Katie Couric "browbeating" Dole either when he said that not everybody that smokes gets addicted.
The mainstream news is seriously pro dem and the truth is finally revealing itself. to the general public. Whose arse being bitten now?

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Lefty
What the hell has the ACLU got to do with Rather yelling at Geo H Bush? And no, I am not responsible for that. Guess you don't remember perky Katie Couric "browbeating" Dole either when he said that not everybody that smokes gets addicted.
The mainstream news is seriously pro dem and the truth is finally revealing itself. to the general public. Whose arse being bitten now?

lol...calm down, just having some fun with you...I do remember that Rather - Bush I incident...if I rember there wasn't any yelling, he just cut the feed...

As for Katie Couric, on "The Greatest Generation" station NBC, I think old Bob can handle a little browbeating from a girl after those Senate fights...

I can tell you though, with the exception of CBS, I beleive most of the stations are really pretty conservative.

Disney owns ABC and if you look at Stephanopolus's show, he has George Will, (used to be Cokie Roberts) and generally conservatvies on his show. And Jennings used to be a pretty impartial commentator, but since the Disney purchase -q quite cautitious - only reporter on ABC I respect is Koppell, even though I disagree with him a lot, I get the sense he's trying to get to the truth.

NBC - a very conservative station...I watched a show on there which was nothing but a bash Kerry event...every person on it was conservative...all five..I think even Cokie came over to bash...And the McLaughlin group is conservative...Tim Russert generally is very tough on dem interviews and throws softball questions to Repubs...And Brokaw means well, but he does not have a real investigative background...

And CBS, Bob Schieffer is a very fair interviewer. CBS is knows for doing actual investigative journalism (stemming back to 60 Minutes roots) rather than rpeating waht is in White House Press Releases, or saying what Karl Rove wants them to say....Rather is willing to go into the trenches for a story, and Cronkite and Murrow were legends.

CNN - Turner is a Republican and CNN has always tilted a bit to the right. I do like C-SPAN though, and PBS attempts to be fair with Jim Lehrer.

FOX - Shameful, an embarassment. There reporting is like a partisan poltical ad for the right. Owned by Murdoch, who owns the NY Post -and we all know what their reporting is like...

[ElKabong]

Peter Jennings- we know about weepy Pete. He shed a tear for crissakes on the air when announcing algore was finally throwing in the towel.

Bob Scheiffer, TCU grad who many alums don't want him speaking on campus b/c of his liberal slant.

Rather, a Bush family hater from the word go. He needs to go to Pensacola to chase Ivan so I can laugh at him some more.
FOX is balanced. You get both sides of the arguement there. Name another Hannity Colmes type show where one doesn't work directly for a party (i.e., Carvelle and Bagala).

[ElKabong]

If there's any one single thing that will knock down the old media tv networks down a few notches, it's the way the swiftboat vets have been ignored by them. Rathergate will just add salt to their wounds.

The swifts have proven beyond a doubt that (1) Kerry was wrong about being in Cambodia for xmas 1968 (a point he made on the senat efloor while being the drama queen he's now being outed as), and (2) Kerry's first Purple heart was rec'd w/o merit, (3) his combat "v" on his ssm/ bsm is fraudulent and is being reviewed by the Navy. The former secty of the Navy has said "no one gets a combat "v" for that medal."

Compare that to CBS with their parade of spares on 60 minutes...Paul O'Neal, Bob Woodward, Dick Clarke, Joe Wilson, etc, etc...and of course, Rathergate.....yet no interviews of John O'Neill, the author of the #1 bestseller for the past few weeks about Kerry's checkered career in the Navy (active and reserves).

NBC= The Yesterday Show has Kittylitter Kelly on 3 days this week for a tabloid book she wrote that is supposedly more fiction than her hatchett job on the Reagans....3 days, lol....Seymour Hersh is on for his new book....Where's John O'Neill? His book is kicking ass.

ABC..The aforementioned petey jennings..., and Terry Moran can't give enough BAD news on the Bush trail, yet he ignores the improving economy all of a sudden. When it was flailing he couldn't say enough about it.

They're outed. PBS/ npr too. Only sure bet going is that their ratings over the next 12 months will go down even further.

[Lefty]

sec, elk said it all and rather well, pun intended.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Lefty
Dan Rather's Bush Hating goes back to the old man. When GH Bush ran against Dukakis, Rather "grilled" the old man about the non existent "October Surprise" and Bush's denial wasn't good enough for the Rather as he continued yelling at him. Yeah, old Dan a "journalist alright" He's even been known to attend Dem fundraisers. Objective? I think not.


I thinks he has attended a lot more bars than fund raisers. He srikes me as the kind of guy that sits at the end of the bars, shouting crap at the younger guys at the other end until the go down and kick his butt. And then the bartender laughs and tell the old guy to get out and not come back.
Hehehe....RamadanRather......the question is, drunk or stupid????

[Secretariat]

Well, since you guys have been unable to refute CBS and they're sticking to their story, I guess it is now time to try and refute USA Today which revealed two documents that they have located that CBS did not have, which pretty much confirms CBS's story.

Also I see that US News and World Report is now also questioning Bush's service.

Are you still into that silly superscript stuff...lol...you guys will focus on anything, except dealing with what you got here. A guy who screwed up when he was young. Didn't fulfill his Guard obligations, and went AWOL.

And guess what, even with all of that, I could care less. Cause it don't mean squat except to say he was a party boy when he was young.

I think his record pre-911, and his "miscalcuation" (as Bush himself said) in Iraq says it all. Oh, and the war on terrorism which was unwinnable one day, and the next became suddenly winnable.

The guy is an embarassment. Flip Flopper in Chief.

[Lefty]

What the Dems don't get is that the election is about the last 4 yrs and not about what either candidate did or didn't do way back then. The focus of the story has been directed at Rather and CBS and no matter how it turns out, won't hurt Bush in the least. Another giant leftwing miscalculation.

[ElKabong]

Sec,

If you go AWOL you all but lose hope of getting an Honorable Discharge. GWB rec'd his, so you can try to convince yourself of whatever you like. Documentation calls your bluff on this one....too bad.

Also, it's not "just" superscript or any one thing else. It's the signatures, the fact Staudt was out of the service for 18 months on the fake doc's date, the fact Killian's widow says Killian would never type anything himself, the fact that Killian's son said any officer would NEVER type a document titled "CYA" b/c only bad things can happen to his career if done so, the fact Killian's son says the signatures on the ("new") documents are not his dad's, the fact Killian's son said he gave CBS two names of living fmr ANG pilots that could answer any and all questions concerning GWB's attendance during teh time in question yet they never were contacted, the fact that General Hodges said he was duped by CBS in their presentation, the fact that other Texas ANG officers say the documenst are fakes from their knowledge of Killian's lingo, that the lingo on the docs are more Army/ Navy and less USAF, the fact that someone outside Killian's family would have documents from his "personal" file........and on and on.

Rather hasn't proven shit b/c he can't. He's reaching for straws now just as he did w/ GHWB.

Sec, of all the posters with supposed Military experience I've seen post about Kerry, GWB and the swiftboat vets, you may very well be the least knowledgeable poster I've come across. You post the same links over and over and over...You post as if 9-11 never happened, never will be attacked again. You have no clue of his post war treasonous acts. You just whistle and skip thru the graveyard all the while your boy kerry goes farther down the toilet.....your loss, not mine.

Stay focused on that ANG record....it took you far in 2000, it'll take you far again, ROTFLMAO.

[ElKabong]

http://peterduncan.net/CBS_Documents.html

As LSBETS said earlier, this is a fine site for Forgerygate info. Scroll down to Part 2 (signatures). No way can anyone say these two signatures on th eseparate doc's are of the same person.

All other info is damning to CBS as well, but the "human factors" just don't add up for CBS here. Not one ANG member from GWB's chain of command in Tx will agree with CBS on the documents. They all agree CBS has fake documents.

[ElKabong]

More on signatures on teh fake CBS documents....I asked someone here to downsize this file (signatures of diff documents) but it was still too big to download here.....scroll down half teh page to look at 5 diff doc's signatures.

The CBS docs are fakes. Simple as that. The sigs are on the 6th post down the page.

http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8664&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

[Larry Hamilton]

In the early 70's, I was a platoon sergeant in a student company. The students were soldiers who had just completed a 2 month basic training and were now reporting for duty to learn a military skill. This skill training produces an occupation, commonly referred to as an MOS (Military Occupation Specialty). Because the young soldiers were just two months from home and many could not take the discipline, AWOL was frequent. It is a subject that has been dwelt upon at great length here with one major omission. The term AWOL is a temporary classification. After being listed as AWOL for 30 days, their classiication automatically is changed to DESERTER.

Do you know any deserters who received an honorable discharge?

[Secretariat]

No, but the DC sniper John Mohammad received an honorable discharge.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by ElKabong

The CBS docs are fakes. Simple as that. The sigs are on the 6th post down the page.

http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8664&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

lol...you're quoting the Swift Boat Vets to disprove something...gotta love it....

What about the USA Today docs Elk, kinda quiet on those

[ElKabong]

Haven't seen the usa today docs, sec. Why don't you post em up for me.

As a friend of mine said "what are the odds someone 'finds' new documents 50 days before the election?...About the same odds someone could get 3 purple hearts in less than 4 months of action and walk away in perfect health".

And John Mohammed has "what" to do with this election??

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by ElKabong
Haven't seen the usa today docs, sec. Why don't you post em up for me.

As a friend of mine said "what are the odds someone 'finds' new documents 50 days before the election?...About the same odds someone could get 3 purple hearts in less than 4 months of action and walk away in perfect health".

And John Mohammed has "what" to do with this election??

Exactly...An honorable discharge has nothing to do with this election.

I thought you'd have the usatoday docs....Ok, I'll get them for ya.

Was gonna respond to your other post, but now you make me do this.

Yes, I keep putting the same stuff up, because you do. THe same old computer forgery conspiracy stuff which is ludicrous without the originals, and for every expert source you quote I've got I've got one with a refutation.

Heres' a couple of links to keep you busy while I go refind them:

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/11/Decision2004/Did_Bush_camp_err_on_.shtml

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0212-06.htm

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Secretariat
No, but the DC sniper John Mohammad received an honorable discharge.

This is why you are considered a horses ass. This kind of comment is so stupid and is off the relevance scale so far you just turned left at innane and moved into silly.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Secretariat
lol...you're quoting the Swift Boat Vets to disprove something...gotta love it....




The thread gave 5 diff doc's signatures....Yes, whoever posted it on swiftvets made the point. You're too ignorant or arrogant to acknowledge the most simple truths. Not my problem.

I see the swift site posters (not the org itself) dug up a 2/28 spot rep that Kerry left off his website. No wonder Kerry didn't post it on his site. It doesn't match the description he gave in his book or recent interviews.

What a loser.

[Secretariat]

JR,

My point is it is not relevant whether he had an honorable discharge or not. We don't even know for sure. So what was my point. Muhammad did. It certainly should not have qualfied him to be Commander in Chief.

Now elk, despite your insults, it took about a minute to find the USA Today different docs than CBS.

I'm linking to a blog because it is discussed there, but it links directly to the USA Today Webpage for the two diff docs that they have that CBS does not. Have fun. you'll have to do a search on the page for the info below which has the link to USA Today. I couldn't make it to easy for ya. Besides if you linked me to a swift boat site, you gotta go to this one.

http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/

"Why does USA Today have two more purported Killian memos than CBS News has revealed?

Via AllahPundit and several emailers, my attention has been drawn to this odd six-page .pdf file — containing memos purportedly created by the late Col. Jerry Killian — that is posted on USA Today's website. That website also maintains this page entitled "President Bush's military records" that contains links to many other sets of .pdf scans.

In addition to the four memos on the CBS News website — dated, respectively, May 4, 1972; May 19, 1972; August 1, 1972; and August 18, 1973 — the odd USA Today .pdf file contains, at its first and fifth pages respectively, memoranda dated February 2, 1972, and June 24, 1973, that are NOT posted on the CBS News website and were NOT referenced in the "60 Minutes" broadcast last Wednesday. "

[JustRalph]

washingtonpost.com Highlights

Expert cited by CBS didn't verify papers
Says he only examined officer's signatureBy Michael Dobbs and Howard Kurtz

Updated: 11:22 p.m. ET Sept. 13, 2004The lead expert retained by CBS News to examine disputed memos from President Bush's former squadron commander in the National Guard said yesterday that he examined only the late officer's signature and made no attempt to authenticate the documents themselves.

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"There's no way that I, as a document expert, can authenticate them," Marcel Matley said in a telephone interview from San Francisco. The main reason, he said, is that they are "copies" that are "far removed" from the originals.

Matley's comments came amid growing evidence challenging the authenticity of the documents aired Wednesday on CBS's "60 Minutes." The program was part of an investigation asserting that Bush benefited from political favoritism in getting out of commitments to the Texas Air National Guard. On last night's "CBS Evening News," Rather said again that the network "believes the documents are authentic."


• Bush's records keep trickling out

A detailed comparison by The Washington Post of memos obtained by CBS News with authenticated documents on Bush's National Guard service reveals dozens of inconsistencies, ranging from conflicting military terminology to different word-processing techniques.

The analysis shows that half a dozen Killian memos released earlier by the military were written with a standard typewriter using different formatting techniques from those characteristic of computer-generated documents. CBS's Killian memos bear numerous signs that are more consistent with modern-day word-processing programs, particularly Microsoft Word.

"I am personally 100 percent sure that they are fake," said Joseph M. Newcomer, author of several books on Windows programming, who worked on electronic typesetting techniques in the early 1970s. Newcomer said he had produced virtually exact replicas of the CBS documents using Microsoft Word formatting and the Times New Roman font.

Newcomer drew an analogy with an art expert trying to determine whether a painting of unknown provenance was painted by Leonardo Da Vinci. "If I was looking for a Da Vinci, I would look for characteristic brush strokes," he said. "If I found something that was painted with a modern synthetic brush, I would know that I have a forgery."

Laura Bush weighs in
Meanwhile, Laura Bush became the first person from the White House to say the documents are likely forgeries. "You know they are probably altered," she told Radio Iowa in Des Moines yesterday. "And they probably are forgeries, and I think that's terrible, really."

Citing confidentiality issues, CBS News has declined to reveal the source of the disputed documents -- which have been in the network's possession for more than a month -- or to explain how they came to light after more than three decades. Yesterday, USA Today said that it had independently obtained copies of the documents "from a person with knowledge of Texas Air National Guard operations" who declined to be named "for fear of retaliation."

It was unclear whether the same person supplied the documents to both media outlets. USA Today said it had obtained its copies of the CBS documents Wednesday night "soon after" the "60 Minutes" broadcast, as well as another two purported Killian memos that had not been made public.

A detailed examination of the CBS documents beside authenticated Killian memos and other documents generated by Bush's 147th Fighter Interceptor Group suggests at least three areas of difference that are difficult to reconcile:

• Word-processing techniques. Of more than 100 records made available by the 147th Group and the Texas Air National Guard, none used the proportional spacing techniques characteristic of the CBS documents. Nor did they use a superscripted "th" in expressions such as "147th Group" and or "111th Fighter Intercept Squadron."

In a CBS News broadcast Friday night rebutting allegations that the documents had been forged, Rather displayed an authenticated Bush document from 1968 that included a small "th" next to the numbers "111" as proof that Guard typewriters were capable of producing superscripts. In fact, say Newcomer and other experts, the document aired by CBS News does not contain a superscript, because the top of the "th" character is at the same level as the rest of the type. Superscripts rise above the level of the type.

• Factual problems. A CBS document purportedly from Killian ordering Bush to report for his annual physical, dated May 4, 1972, gives Bush's address as "5000 Longmont #8, Houston." This address was used for many years by Bush's father, George H.W. Bush. National Guard documents suggest that the younger Bush stopped using that address in 1970 when he moved into an apartment, and did not use it again until late 1973 or 1974, when he moved to Cambridge, Mass., to attend Harvard Business School.

One CBS memo cites pressure allegedly being put on Killian by "Staudt," a reference to Col. Walter B. "Buck" Staudt, one of Bush's early commanders. But the memo is dated Aug. 18, 1973, nearly a year and a half after Staudt retired from the Guard. Questioned about the discrepancy over the weekend, CBS officials said that Staudt was a "mythic figure" in the Guard who exercised influence from behind the scenes even after his retirement.

• Stylistic differences. To outsiders, how an officer wrote his name and rank or referred to his military unit may seem arcane and unimportant. Within the military, however, such details are regulated by rules and tradition, and can be of great significance. The CBS memos contain several stylistic examples at odds with standard Guard procedures, as reflected in authenticated documents.

In memos previously released by the Pentagon or the White House, Killian signed his rank "Lt Col" or "Lt Colonel, TexANG," in a single line after his name without periods. In the CBS memos, the "Lt Colonel" is on the next line, sometimes with a period but without the customary reference to TexANG, for Texas Air National Guard.

An ex-Guard commander, retired Col. Bobby W. Hodges, who CBS originally cited as a key source in authenticating its documents, pointed to discrepancies in military abbreviations as evidence that the CBS memos are forgeries. The Guard, he said, never used the abbreviation "grp" for "group" or "OETR" for an officer evaluation review, as in the CBS documents. The correct terminology, he said, is "gp" and "OER."

In its broadcast last night, CBS News produced a new expert, Bill Glennon, an information technology consultant. He said that IBM electric typewriters in use in 1972 could produce superscripts and proportional spacing similar to those used in the disputed documents.

Any argument to the contrary is "an out-and-out lie," Glennon said in a telephone interview. But Glennon said he is not a document expert, could not vouch for the memos' authenticity and only examined them online because CBS did not give him copies when asked to visit the network's offices.

Thomas Phinney, program manager for fonts for the Adobe company in Seattle, which helped to develop the modern Times New Roman font, disputed Glennon's statement to CBS. He said "fairly extensive testing" had convinced him that the fonts and formatting used in the CBS documents could not have been produced by the most sophisticated IBM typewriters in use in 1972, including the Selectric and the Executive. He said the two systems used fonts of different widths.

'Content analysis'
On last night's "CBS Evening News," Rather said "60 Minutes" had done a "content analysis" of the memos and found, for example, that the date that Bush was suspended from flying -- Aug. 1, 1972 -- matched information in the documents. He also noted that USA Today had separately obtained another memo from 1972 in which Killian asked to be updated on Bush's flight certification status.

CBS executives have pointed to Matley as their lead expert on whether the memos are genuine, and included him in a "CBS Evening News" defense of the story Friday. Matley said he spent five to eight hours examining the memos. "I knew I could not prove them authentic just from my expertise," he said. "I can't say either way from my expertise, the narrow, narrow little field of my expertise."

In looking at the photocopies, he said, "I really felt we could not definitively say which font this is." But, he said, "I didn't see anything that would definitively tell me these are not authentic."

Asked about Matley's comments, CBS spokeswoman Sandy Genelius said: "In the end, the gist is that it's inconclusive. People are coming down on both sides, which is to be expected when you're dealing with copies of documents."

Questions about the CBS documents have grown to the point that they overshadow the allegations of favorable treatment toward Bush.

Prominent conservatives such as Rush Limbaugh are insisting the documents are forged. New York Times columnist William Safire said yesterday that CBS should agree to an independent investigation. Brent Bozell, president of the Media Research Center, called on the network to apologize, saying: "The CBS story is a hoax and a fraud, and a cheap and sloppy one at that. It boggles the mind that Dan Rather and CBS continue to defend it."

Staff reporters James V. Grimaldi and Mike Allen and researcher Alice Crites contributed to this repo

[ElKabong]

Well Sec, looks like fakes to me. The signatures are nowhere close to Killian's documents that are from files already released. PAGES 1 and 3 are not signed (the unsigned page 6 is forged, for sure), so I'll let the expert Dr Bouffard reply before posting.

So far Dr Bouffard has stated he thinks the CBS docs are forged. I know you'll try to drag out the taipeitimes (misrepresentation per Bouffard), but I've already called bullsh*t on that so don't try that weak sh*t anymore.

Btw, I see you haven't commented on any of the items of rejection I posted from people closer to this stuff than anyone else. Good for you. You're learning.

When the DNC relies on dead men's private files (and once again, WHERE did they get them) 50 days before an election, the public knows what's up.

Here's another PhD (link below) saying the CBS docs are fakes.....looks like the doubters greatly outnumber the CBS faithful. Sucks to be you and dan rather right about now.

http://www.flounder.com/bush2.htm

[Lefty]

sec, point is: Your obfuscation and misdirection is plain ridiculous. An honorable discharge has nothing to do with the election as you say; hell, none of this stuff has nothing to do with the election, like I've been saying. But the honorable discharge has EVERYTHING to do with the charges that he never completed his service. Try to keep on point. We get enough of this type of nutty obfuscation from lbj.

[ElKabong]

JR, you da man!

I heard WaPo had an article, this must be an update. This nails it shut!

Sec....The CBS ace experts for "proving" these (fakes) were authentic now include the handwriting expert who is now saying he CANNOT vouch for their authenticity, and General Hodges who says CBS duped him, and now states the CBS docs are "frauds".

This s/b fun as hell. Rather will be back on again defending his sorry assed fake story for the 3rd consecutive program on the CBS Evening lies.

Damn, the friggin WaPo puts the final torpedo in Rather's patched up innertube....who'da thunk it.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by ElKabong
Damn, the friggin WaPo puts the final torpedo in Rather's patched up innertube....who'da thunk it.

I think that may be the most significant part of this

The Washington Post has passed judgement in my opine.

[JustMissed]

You can stick a fork in this story, it's done.

Hope Dan Blather has a nervous breakdown and starts crying on the air.

JM

P.S. Please support Ralph Nader for President. If you don't like Bush and don't like lying Kerry, he's your man.

[Secretariat]

Elk,

Are you saying that USA Today docs are fake as well? THat somehow a different news org is in cahoots with CBS? These are different docs, and they appear to be standing by them as well.

[JustRalph]

they have basically admitted to using the same source. why couldn't both be fake?

[Secretariat]

JR,

Where do you see they are from the same source?

And sure, it's possible they coudl be fake. Remember Bush used fake documents to justify his invasion of Iraq in the State of the Union Niger uranium claim, so we're familir with forgeries being used politically.

As to whether these are real or not, bottom line is we just don't know. Regardless, we do know Bush still has not addressed the questions raised by the memos.

[ElKabong]

Sec,

We'll wait and see if Bill Burkett is the source for BOTH the CBS fakes and the USA today fakes. Burkett is going to have a hard time living this sh-t down. He's a fmr ANG member with an axe to grind and now is caught redhanded. Matt Lauer exposed him on NBC this morning on his kill shot interview w/ Kitty Kelly. (good for Lauer, it now looks like there's an OFFICIAL 60 minutes backlash going on with some of the Leftstream media, lol)

If you can add 2 + 2, this is the trail to sniff to find the fresh DNC dogsh-t, and Burkett and Jim Moore have their scent all over the place..

The connections so far on all recent things Bush- bashing are Bill Burkett, Jim Moore and (CBS) Mary Mapes. Might be more but these are the people that are going to have scopes up their asses long after the election.

You said it's "possible" the docs are fake, lol....It's a virtual certainty....CBS has lost ALL their "experts" now when it comes to trying to con the public there's a shred of integrity to the docs.

Burkett's a piece of work. He's a wingnut whose had 2 nervous breakdowns, and now he's tried to alter a NATIONAL ELECTION by providing fraudulent documents that serve no purpose but to slander a serving president....If he blows his head clean off his shoulders it's cool by me. He brought this all on himself. No one else told him to do it.....Did they?

Bush has his Honorable Discharge. That's all that matters. He's running on his record of political leadership, not his yrs in the ANG. Hopefully Mc Auliffe is still dumb enuff to try to make this dog hunt. It's giving us votes from the formerly undecided.

[JustRalph]

People on radio all over the country are talking about how the sources are the same. some "unnamed " USA today types have also leaked that they are the same. But they also are discussing the fact that USA today may be working in league with CBS and Rather to soften the blow on Rather.

[ElKabong]

JR,

Just as an aside, Burkett's name in connection to the present flap has come up on (1) the today show (2) wbap radio ft worth tx (3) mike medved (4) Newsweek, (5) Blogs galore...among others.

Burkett's tied into Jim Moore, who wrote a book that trashed GWB titled 'Bush's Brain and Bush's War for Re-election' (no bias there, huh?). Burkett was a source for that book. I believe Moore lives in Austin, which is where the first word was where those fake CBS docs came from originally.

There's a ton of sh-t on these two guys. Burkett originally made a half decent case for GWB's ANG record being scrubbed back in Feb, but has since been found to be less than honest.

Also one needs to remember that Mary Mapes (of CBS) rec'd the fake docs from "the source"....Mary Mapes also originally rec'd the Abu Garib photos for ABC from a "source" as well. Looks like the DNC goes to Mapes for Kerry's "bounces" in the polls....Worked on the Abu Garib story. Didn't work this time tho. Tough sh-t, Mary.

Here's Newsweek's article fingering Burkett.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5974040/site/newsweek/

Where did the documents come from? CBS won't say. But the trail pieced together by NEWSWEEK shows that in a sulfurous season like this one, the difference between obscurity and power is small, and anyone can get a hearing. A principal source for CBS's story was Bill Burkett, a disgruntled former Guard officer who lives in Baird, Texas, who says he was present at Guard headquarters in Austin in 1997, when a top aide to the then Governor Bush ordered records sanitized to protect the Boss. Other Guard officials disputed Burkett's account, and the Bush aide involved, Joe Allbaugh, called it "absolute garbage." Burkett may have a motive to make trouble for the powers that be. In 1998, he grew gravely ill on a Guard mission to Panama, causing him to be hospitalized, and he suffered two nervous breakdowns. He unsuccessfully sued for medical expenses.

[chickenhead]

very long transcript with this guy Burkett...interesting read. I've never heard of him before, I will go look now to see how he was discredited.

http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003249.html

[Secretariat]

Who knows whether Burkett is the source, and if the USA today and CBS one are the same? USA Today Editor said that is speculative. If it is Burkett, Guardsman Conn feels his integrity is impeccable.

Here's what the USA Today Editor said today:

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000629546

And Elk,here's a chance for you to make a quick 50,000:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/14/bush.texans/index.html

[ElKabong]

Looks like my punching bag named Sec is at it again...So much fun.

1) You think Conn is a good source to vouch for Burkett's integrity? Conn lived in Cedar Hill, Tx. Burkett lived near Abeline. For a good long while they had dinner "together". They lived 100 miles apart, Sec. How odd is that?

Burkett has had two mental breakdowns, yet you try make him into a pillar of integrity, LOLOLOOL.

2) The USA today documents: I noticed nowhere in that article that a name of a person who certiified the docs as authentic....How about posting these "experts" up for us, Sec...OH, MAYBE THEY DON'T WANT THEM TO BE QUESTIONED, like the CBS so-called experts were. Smart move b/c the cbs so-called experts pulled back and said they COULDN'T declare the docs as authentic.

In fact, if you saw the ABC evening news, Brian Ross interviewed TWO DIFFERENT forensic document specialists who both told CBS news "don't run this story" b/c they said flat out the docs were fakes.

3) The 50k is a trick question...Unfortunately for you and the DNC people can figure this one out on their own. When the war was winding down many ANG pilots were released from their duty ahead of schedule (ahem, so was John Kerry as a matter of fact). Bush asked to go to the Harvard Business School in Oct 73 and was approved. See the 2 docs below.

Here they are below...Clean...Legal....and an Honorable Discharge, to boot!

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/ANG22.gif

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc27.gif

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/Doc21.gif

I'm guessing the DNC tards are doing this as retaliation for the guy that is offering $10000 for anyone to dupelicate the CBS documents. There ya go, Secretary....10 easy g's for you to type up a doc just like Burkett's fakes, lolololol.

[Tom]

If the secret source that leaked these documents will not stand up and admitt it, how can anyone take him//her seriously?
It would be easy to provide the original docs for evaluation, unless there are no original docs.
The only conclusion one can logically make is they are fakes.
BTW, RamadanRather has been offered a job at the NY TImes. They think his fake news is much more interesting than the fake news they are used to printing. John Stewart is the alternate job candidate.

[ElKabong]

Now, straight from the typist's mouth....

Killian's secty was interviewed by the DMN. She said the docs are without a doubt, "fakes". She's no fan of GWB as a prez, but says the doc's are not authentic.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/091504dnpolnatguard.1185eb4ae.html

Former secretary says she didn't type memos

06:24 PM CDT on Tuesday, September 14, 2004


By PETE SLOVER / The Dallas Morning News



HOUSTON – The former secretary for the Texas Air National Guard colonel who supposedly authored memos critical of President Bush’s Guard service said Tuesday that the documents are fake, but that they reflect real documents that once existed.

Marian Carr Knox, who worked from 1956 to 1979 at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston, said she prided herself on meticulous typing, and the memos first disclosed by CBS News last week were not her work.

“These are not real,” she told The Dallas Morning News after examining copies of the disputed memos for the first time. “They’re not what I typed, and I would have typed them for him.” ...................

She said the typeface on the documents did not match either of the two typewriters that she used during her time at the Guard. She identified those machines as a mechanical Olympia, which was replaced by an IBM Selectric in the early 1970s.

CBS officials have defended their report. They have declined to say who provided 60 Minutes with the documents, other than that it was an “unimpeachable source” – or exactly where they came from, other than Lt. Col. Killian’s “personal file.” .........

Some news reports attribute the CBS reports to a former Army National Guard officer who has a longstanding dispute with the Guard and has previously maintained that the president’s record was sanitized.

Mrs. Knox also cited stylistic differences in the form of the notes, such as the signature on the right side of the document, rather than the left, where she would have put it.

[ElKabong]

After reading all the secty's comments, I have my doubts about her "account" now. I respect that she's in her 80s so don't think I'm picking on her.

First, she mentions that "billets" was used in the (fake) docs in lieu of "slots". She hinted someone from the Army must have gotten a hold of some of Killian's notes/ memos since billets is an "Army term"....This raises my doubts in that we used the phrase "billets" often for openings. She's wrong on that point.

Second, she notes that GWB needed to take a physical in May. That cannot be correct. You take your physicals on your birth month, thus GWB didn't HAVE to take a physical till July 31. I asked a guy that was in the Reserves if they had diff reg's on physicals, he said they were the same.

Just doesn't add up...Sorry.

Other stuff too, but those kinda stick out the most. No doubt more info will come out as time goes on, but those 2 errors in her interview just won't pass the test....

[ElKabong]

Well, well. Lookie here at Mr Burkett on 11/4/2000..!

http://www.onlinejournal.com/bush/110400Starr-Conover/110400starr-conover.html

Three days before the 2000 election Burkett hits the news with the same tired story he's rolling out today. Man, this is some funny sh-t.

If at first you don't succeed..., try some fraudulent doc's.

What are the odds that Burkett (and some DNC buds) rolls this stuff out only when it's election time, LOL....Yo, somebody from the DNC: "Please send in the Varsity. Your JV is exposed."

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Secretariat
.you guys will focus on anything, except dealing with what you got here. A guy who screwed up when he was young. Didn't fulfill his Guard obligations, and went AWOL.

.


I knew I'd find this sooner or later, Sec......I came up with a half dozen or more links like this 4 yrs ago when dems tried the same sh-t they're trying today.. Still won't work, dudes.

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/040216/bush.shtml

Former Dannelly worker: Bush not AWOL

By Eric Fleischauer
DAILY Staff Writer
eric@decaturdaily.com · 340-2435

Retired Master Sgt. James Copeland does not care so much whether people think President Bush went absent without leave in 1972, but one thing he hears bothers him plenty.

"Maybe the Bush family was well known in Texas, but we didn't know who he was here. He was just another guy in a flight jacket," Copeland said Sunday.

Copeland, who lives in Hartselle, retired from the Air Force on Jan. 31, 1980. He was the disbursement accounting supervisor, a full-time position, for Dannelly Air National Guard Base in Montgomery from Oct. 28, 1971, to Oct. 27, 1975. His office was less than 100 yards from the hangar where Bush performed drills.

Rumors say Bush went AWOL while assisting Winton "Red" Blount in an unsuccessful campaign for U.S. Senate focus on 1972 and 1973.

Copeland, 65, remembers meeting Bush on two occasions. He does not remember the precise dates. On one occasion, Copeland said, Bush and Lt. Col. John "Bill" Calhoun came to Copeland's office with a question about Bush's pay. Copeland is not sure, but he believes the question had to do with where to mail Bush's checks.

Bush was never a member of the Alabama National Guard, he just did his drills here. For that reason, Copeland thinks he referred the pay question to the paymaster for the Texas National Guard.

The other time Copeland remembers meeting Bush was at the base canteen. Bush was there drinking coffee or a soft drink, Copeland said.

Copeland stressed that Calhoun's account of Bush's service in Montgomery would be accurate because Calhoun was in a position to work with Bush during every drill. Calhoun told The Associated Press last week that he saw Bush every drill time, which was one weekend each month.

Not only was Calhoun in a position to know of Bush's service, Copeland said, but Calhoun "was an ethical and honest officer."

No easy treatment

The suggestion that he or anyone else gave Bush a break because of the family legacy bothers Copeland.

"You hear people saying that everybody (at Dannelly) knew the Bushes. Well, that's just a lie," Copeland said. "He was just another pilot. No one paid any more attention to him than to anyone else. There was no hoopla."

Copeland said Bush trained on an F-106 fighter plane in Texas, so he was not qualified to fly the planes at Dannelly. Dannelly had F-84 Thunderjets and, later, F-4 Phantoms.

The issue of whether Bush skipped his Air National Guard duties is not a new one.

Some Democrats have long questioned whether Bush continued his drills while absent from Texas for Blount's campaign.

Bush Press Secretary Scott McClellan said Friday that the White House is making no effort to locate people who could document Bush's service.

Joe Holcombe, 71, of Joppa worked with Bush on the Blount campaign. He told THE DAILY last week that he remembers Bush missing at least one campaign meeting because of his National Guard drills.

While Copeland said he thinks claims that Bush was AWOL are baseless, he said one thing puzzles him.

"All Bush would have to do to get proof of his Alabama service is pick up the phone and contact military records," he said. "It seems a little odd that he hasn't done that."

Copeland also is puzzled by dental records that Bush produced as evidence of his duties at Dannelly.

"We had no dentist at Dannelly Field," Copeland said. "The only dentists were at Maxwell (Air Force Base)."

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Who knows whether Burkett is the source, and if the USA today and CBS one are the same? USA Today Editor said that is speculative. If it is Burkett, Guardsman Conn feels his integrity is impeccable.

l[/url]


In the spirit of running up the score (ala Mike Leach, Switzer, and Lavell Edwards) on you Sec, here's George Conn dissing Burkett's story(s). I guess he doesn't think Burkett's integrity is "impeccable" afterall, eh?

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/02/13/doubts_raised_on_bush_accuser/

"I have no recall of that", Conn said. "None, zip, nada", of scrubbing GWB's docs.

Looks like Conn called Burkett a liar, Sec. Must have had a fight over some tofu and wine one night.

[Secretariat]

Phew...Elk, you're now rebutting yourself before you give anyone a chance to reply. Now, you're picking on 86 year old Secretaries.

Honestly, if I could remember something I typed 40 years ago I'd be amazed so let's go easy on her. She obviously didn't think much of GW when he was young, she does remember that from the article.

So we'll leave her out of it.

Ok, first, you're assuming Burkett is the source AND for both CBS and USA Today with no proof of that. So you proceed to denigrate Burkett without any verification he was the source. (I guess I could denigrate Rove if he was Novak's source for Plame, but then that source shouldn't be revealed, right?)

As to Conn, not all the info he told the Times was in your post as usual.

Here's a few different perspectives:

http://giveyoujoy.net/us/000962.html

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/02/con04070.html

And of course I said way back in the posts, I don't know if the docs are forgeries are not, and franky, neither do you. The issues in Bush's NG service are legit questions though since the Swift Boat nitwits have decided to make this election about Vietnam.

So, keep trying to find the word processor smoking gun Elk...as long as CBS isn't backing down and the WH isn't threatening lawsuit (after all the WH apparently gave the docs to USA today according to their editor..so maybe they're the source for USA Today?).

Now, let's talk about the economy and Iraq.

[JustRalph]

anybody see that word doc that was typed up by

littlegreenfootballs.com?

they typed the exact same doc in word with default values and put it on a clear sheet and laid it over top of the Dan Rather docs and it matched so perfectly it was incredible. Fox news duplicated it also. Dan Rather should be run out on a rail.........

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Phew...Elk, you're now rebutting yourself before you give anyone a chance to reply. Now, you're picking on 86 year old Secretaries.


As to Conn, not all the info he told the Times was in your post as usual.

Here's a few different perspectives:

http://giveyoujoy.net/us/000962.html

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/02/con04070.html



Sec,

First, the secty....I made it clear I was "not picking on her" b/c of her age. Go play yourself elsewhere.

Second, George Conn...Your two links fail to give a quote by Conn. Just opinions, and biased ones at that. I've already linked an article that states Conn said there was no scrubbing of GWB's doc's as Burkett said there was.

He basically called Burkett a liar on the subject of Burkett's fixation (bringing down GWB).

I'm sure you'd like to move on to other issues than Rathergate, but Terry McAuliffe just won't allow it, Sec. The dirty politics of his DNC is front and center and will remain that way for awhile. Deal with it. Rathergate, like Watergate, will mostly be about the coverup and the scope of the scandal, not necessarily the act itself.

[ElKabong]

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/bush_guard_documents_040914-1.html

Document expert says of CBS "I did not feel that they wanted to investigate it very deeply."



snippet---Two of the document experts hired by CBS News now say the network ignored concerns they raised prior to the broadcast of 60 Minutes II about the disputed National Guard records attributed to Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984.

Emily Will, a veteran document examiner from North Carolina, told ABC News she saw problems right away with the one document CBS hired her to check the weekend before the broadcast.

“I found five significant differences in the questioned handwriting, and I found problems with the printing itself as to whether it could have been produced by a typewriter,” she said.

Will says she sent the CBS producer an e-mail message about her concerns and strongly urged the network the night before the broadcast not to use the documents.

“I told them that all the questions I was asking them on Tuesday night, they were going to be asked by hundreds of other document examiners on Thursday if they ran that story,” Will said.

But the documents became a key part of the 60 Minutes II broadcast questioning President Bush’s National Guard service in 1972. CBS made no mention that any expert disputed the authenticity.

“I did not feel that they wanted to investigate it very deeply,” Will told ABC News.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by ElKabong
Sec,

I'm sure you'd like to move on to other issues than Rathergate, but Terry McAuliffe just won't allow it, Sec. The dirty politics of his DNC is front and center and will remain that way for awhile. Deal with it. Rathergate, like Watergate, will mostly be about the coverup and the scope of the scandal, not necessarily the act itself.

Can you plase provide a direct link between the DNC and CBS and Dan Rather? Put up or shut up. What you'e inferring is a criminal allegation without any substantiation as usual.

I am sure CBS will continue to defend their story, and I'm sure they'll continue to protect their source, as Novak did in the Plame incident, or as Woodward did during Watergate.

Newsmen get stories because they promise that confidentiality. If the source comes forward fine, but how can you ask a newsman to reveal his source if the source demands to remain protected.

Actually, I think this issue has hurt Kerry when in fact he had nothing to with bringing it up in the first place, and has never accused Bush of falsifying his guard records, OR endorsed the Killian memos. Personally, I think CBS got it right and those docs are real.

Why I want to go on to other things are relevant questions like PA asked about Bush's record on the environment while President, OR his decision to go to war with Iraq as President. I've spent way too many posts on your bizarre attempts to connect Rather's report to the DNC and Kerry. It is interesting how you continually denied the Swift Boat connection to the WH, but find these NG issues as some kind of absolute between Rather and the DNC.

I can tell you what "I" think for all its worth, which is Bush was AWOL, worked on scrubbing his NG records before the election to Gov. of Texas, was given preferential treatment to join the NG to get out of Nam, was given preferential treatment to work on a Senate campaign in AL. and failed to finish his Guard assignment in Boston. That's enough for me. And I've said with all of that over and over here, that while I find fault with his leadership about that, what is important is his record as President which is dismal. I am dismayed that he would choose a VP who said when asked about serving in Nam said "I had better things to do," and this man continually assaults Kerry's leadership?

Your focus is on attempting to prove the memos are forgeries. Mine is on the leadership questions surrounding Bush as President. I can understand why you focus on this NG issue. It keeps you from having to deal with the real Bush "miscalcualtions" (admitted by him or otherwise) which seem to occur on a daily basis.

I've wasted too much time with your hearsay. And I "take accountability" for my own blunder in that regard. Your posts lately have become just silly.

[Lefty]

sec, it was Kerry and the DNC that decided to make this election about Vietnam, not the swiftboat vets and how dare you call these vets nitwits. Getaholdofyourself.

[JustRalph]

I don't know why you have your shorts in a bind Sec..............the word I hear on radio is.............that Newsweek Magazine has already proven who the provider of the docs was and Rather is covering it up.........it will come out........the guy who provided the docs is a PO'ed former Pilot or such from the unit. He sued the Air Guard and lost over some disability or something..........no credibility at all. The kicker, he is supposedly a Kerry operative and fundraiser..........we shall see..........the plot thickens

[so.cal.fan]

Don't you think that....just maybe.......maybe.....Sen. Joe Lieberman would have been a more credible candidate to oppose GWB?
This is just a disgraceful campaign and has turned many of us off that would have voted Democratic.

[ElKabong]

Sec,


Every "expert" (outside of Dan Rather himself lol) contends these CBS docs are fakes. The fact the docs run the same lines as Bill Burkett's Nov 2000 story is damning enuff for me.

Bob Schieffer made a comment on Drudge.com that ought to be interesting down the road. If Schieffer says the docs could have come from a "Bush opponent", then I can think the DNC possibly had something to do with it.....read below.

"I think we have to find some way to show our viewers they are not forgeries,'' Schieffer, CBS' chief Washington correspondent and host of the network's "Face the Nation,'' said at a news conference in Sioux City. "I don't know how we're going to do that without violating the confidentiality of sources.'' .......'Though Schieffer discounted suggestions that Rather received fraudulent documents, he acknowledged the source could have been a Bush opponent.'

[JustMissed]

No linkage necessary.

Kerry goes down with Blather and McAuliffie like a sinking Swiftboat.

Blather hates Bush 41 and hates Bush 43 just as much if not more, no need to show any linkage.

Blather would not fart without the DNC signing off on it and he sure as hell would not do a hatchet job on President Bush without clearing it with DNC.

If you say otherwise your just a damn lying spinmaster.

What I'm loving about the story is the other news outlets won't let it die in the interest of "fair and balanced reporting".hehehe,
PLUS , they hate Blathers guts and secretly want him to go down.

Hey, I think Blather should be put on suspension til the truth is revealed. Ouch, that would hurt!

Hey DemLibs, everyone, and I mean everyone, has a relative, neighbor, co-worked,or friend that was in the National Guard-Guess what-nobody cares.

I bet James'Smeagle'Carvile and Billary Clinton can hardly keep a straight face around lying John Kerry. I bet during their planning sessions Carvile looks over to Hill and starts thinking, "I can't believe that dumb ass Kerry fell for the old Guard scam, what a loser".

Anyway, CBS is suppose to make a big announcement today regarding Forgergate. Hope someone will post it.

See ya,

JM

Hey, can't wait to see that lying psycho National Guard forger on The Factor.

[ElKabong]

CBS news announced that they had a statement due out at noon EDT (2 hrs ago) to address the Forgerygate issue. I'm almost certain they'll roll out more "we stand by our forgeries" line.

No, actually what will happen is Rather will announce, "I am a gay American. My Israeli assistant and I have been playing rubba rubba for quite some time, and I relied on him to vouch for the never-seen-before documents' authenticity."

[chickenhead]

Kerry has run the worst campaign I have seen in my admittedly short political life. Just the absolute worst...I keep hearing Lieberman, but I honestly don't think any of the guys in the primaries would have won, and I don't think Kerry will win.

[ElKabong]

Just Missed,

You're right on about Rather. Afterall his daughter is very involved in the Texas democrat party. The apple didn't fall far...She was thinking of running for Mayor in Austin, Tx. Very liberal, but that fits in quite well in Austin.

[Secretariat]

So far this thread has:

1. Accused CBS of being linked to the DNC and Kerry Camapign with no proof.

2. Named the source as Bill Burkett and then denigrated the man without even knowing if he was the source.

3. Asked for CBS to reveal their source while remaining silent on Novak's confidentiality on the Plame case.

4. Used Killian's secretary as a source, and then debunked her. She's gone on record that this was the kind of letter that might be written about guardsman Bush, but she can't remember typing it.

5. Have been thoroughly refuted over and again on the silly computer vs typewriter claims.

6. Have failed to address the issues CBS is asking Bush about.

7. Have not commented on the WH not addressing the questions which Rather has asked. No official denial.

Lefty as for the SW group, they are nitwits. Not for their service in Nam, but for their blatant denigration of a veteran for strictly political purposes.

You focus too much on this Elk, I am a little worried about you. The docs may be forged, they might not. Nothing has been conclusively proven. From the article below, it appears that Rather has seen the originals and CBS sticks by its claims. I had to laugh at a CNN report which said that "one" expert said they may be forgeries, and "some" remain unconvinced. What the heck does that mean? "One" and "some". Now that's news?

You may find this interesting:

http://www.observer.com/pages/frontpage1.asp

[JustRalph]

Hey Sec

You know there is a group online that has put up a 40k reward for anyone who can produce an IBM selectric or any typewriter from the year of this document, that can duplicate the Rather documents. Nobody has stepped up yet?

[ElKabong]

Sec,

If you think I focus too much on a network trying to push fraudulent documents on the voting publc, I think YOU need to focus more, Sec.

Almost all your points are either insignificant or false. As for Burkett, I have posted nothing that isn't found elsewhere. In fact his "friend" (Conn) said Burkett was wrong about any document of GWB's being "scrubbed" or anything of that nature.

Killian's secty did not say she didn't recall typing those CBS forged docs....She said she NEVER typed them.

Just Ralph stated that you can earn an easy 40k if you get soem IBM selectric and reproduce the cBS fakes....Hop to it and prove me wrong Sec, lol....THEY'RE FAKE.

Tell ya what, get Kerry to sign that SF 180 and then let's talk. GWB has answered these ANG questions in 1994, 1998 and 2000...Kerry hasn't answered sh-t.

Oh, NBC just did another slam job on cBS on the evening news.....Last nite it was Emily Will saying cBS didn't take her advice not to run the story b/c the docs are fakes, NBC interviewed Linda James today who also said the docs are fakes...

That's about every so-called expert CBS had to offer, they all are saying the cBS docs are fakes.

[ElKabong]

Not much left to say except "enjoy the heat, Dan Rather".

http://img41.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img41&image=60minbusted.swf

[Secretariat]

lol...elk...c'mon..answer the questions Rather asked....enough of this silly Word thing......

[ElKabong]

Yes, the cBS fakes were debunked by several "experts" that are calling out cBS. That's a matter of record. Brent Bozell has asked for an investigation as well as some on Capitol Hill. Rather is being viewed as a fraud.

So, when does Kerry sign the SF180, Sec? That first PH was given without merit. Where's the AAR? Where's the SpotRep? He was in a hurry to get the hell out of Nam, now he's in a hurry to lose the election, ROTFLMAO.


Just like 3/13 when he fled the action at Bay Hap river and "bugged out", he's fleeing the fight in the campaign. Everyone sees him for what he is. We'll play that game all day long.

[Tom]

Originally posted by chickenhead
Kerry has run the worst campaign I have seen in my admittedly short political life. Just the absolute worst...I keep hearing Lieberman, but I honestly don't think any of the guys in the primaries would have won, and I don't think Kerry will win.


I think this war criminal has hired Bahgdad Bob as his campaign advisor. :D

[Tom]

Originally posted by ElKabong
CBS news announced that they had a statement due out at noon EDT (2 hrs ago) to address the Forgerygate issue. I'm almost certain they'll roll out more "we stand by our forgeries" line.

No, actually what will happen is Rather will announce, "I am a gay American. My Israeli assistant and I have been playing rubba rubba for quite some time, and I relied on him to vouch for the never-seen-before documents' authenticity."


First, they changed it until 3:30 so that Rush would be off the air and could not comment on it. Then they said 5:30, so I guess Hannity would about done. Still nothing. Wonder why it takes so long to find out what the truth is?

[so.cal.fan]

"I think this war criminal has hired Bahgdad Bob as his campaign advisor".


LOL LOL LOL

That would be a great idea for a GWB ad, Tom......Baghdad Bob giving Kerry messages!

They need to hire you, Tom.........priceless.
:D

[Derek2U]

Tom i like you ... (I know good peeps) ... but why do you play
into these backward freaks' hands? I can't understand it?
You're reaching 6 million posts & I've yet to read a sensible word
in your last 500K. So what gives? Vote 4 BusH and be done with
it, thank Budha. Bush & Cheney are worried too but I'll let their
financial advisors know you're OK ... that ought 2 make BusH's
brain?? breathe easier. If I didn't like you as much I'd ride to
FL & ruff U uP ... in fact, Tom, I will write a RaPP song about
this. But 4 sure you are NOT boring like so many parrots here.
xx00 Derek

[Secretariat]

Now I see why you immediately retieved your support of the Secretary of Killian...On Sixty Minutes tonight she said "SHE" didn't type those documents, but wow, what she did say about Mr. Bush...

"All those things were true in the documents."

"There were other documents just like that"

When asked about sugar coating for Staudt, she said that's "exactly" what Killan felt.

But the comment that sticks out with me is her comment "Bush felt he didn't have to live by the rules."

She states that Bush blatantly disregarded a direct order to take a physical, and didn't fulfill his Guard obligations as well as got preferential treatment to get in the Guard..

This person was probably closer to Killian than anyone. Now go ahead Elk, pick on an 86 year old woman. That's about your speed.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Derek2U
Tom i like you ... (I know good peeps) ... but why do you play
into these backward freaks' hands? I can't understand it?
You're reaching 6 million posts & I've yet to read a sensible word
in your last 500K. So what gives? Vote 4 BusH and be done with
it, thank Budha. Bush & Cheney are worried too but I'll let their
financial advisors know you're OK ... that ought 2 make BusH's
brain?? breathe easier. If I didn't like you as much I'd ride to
FL & ruff U uP ... in fact, Tom, I will write a RaPP song about
this. But 4 sure you are NOT boring like so many parrots here.
xx00 Derek

Thanks 2U D....UROK in my book, too. I am eagerly awaiting the rap...hope it sells and you get to be king of bling. HEHEHE.

:D

[Derek2U]

good night gents I gotta rent a movie tonight I'm feeling Very
HollyWood .... call me i'm waiting by the phone. 212-426-****
LOL hey, maybe i'll reveal my last 4 digits 2 ya. lol

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Now I see why you immediately retieved your support of the Secretary of Killian...On Sixty Minutes tonight she said "SHE" didn't type those documents, but wow, what she did say about Mr. Bush...

"All those things were true in the documents."

"There were other documents just like that"

When asked about sugar coating for Staudt, she said that's "exactly" what Killan felt.

But the comment that sticks out with me is her comment "Bush felt he didn't have to live by the rules."

She states that Bush blatantly disregarded a direct order to take a physical, and didn't fulfill his Guard obligations as well as got preferential treatment to get in the Guard..

This person was probably closer to Killian than anyone. Now go ahead Elk, pick on an 86 year old woman. That's about your speed.


I won't pick on an 86yo lady, I'll just state the facts.

General Hodges and others in that group have stated that Staudt had "zero influence" in the ANG after his retirement, yet some secretary says he did.

Does CBS interview the General on the air, or some 86 yo secty?? Uh huh. :p

Killian's son was in that unit as a pilot (closer to his dad than the secty was), does he get interviewed or does some 86yo secty? Uh huh ,lol. :D

Killian's son gave Rather and Mapes the names of two pilots that could vouch for GWB taking the physical. Did they get interviewed on air, or did some 86 yo secty? HAAAAHAHAHAHHAA :) :D

"We're cBS. Our curtain has been pulled back".

[JustMissed]

I hope President Bush cuts her social security benefits and she has to eat cat food and cut her medication in half. I'm sure he'll wait til PayBack Day, November 3rd.

I thought she was very complimentary of George Bush.

She said he was always very nice to her and a Gentlemen.

She said she always thought he must have had wonderful parents because he was raised to be such a fine person.

She said she absolutely did not type those forged memos.

The truth is that all this is absolutely meaningless. Bush's air guard record is not on the table.

The big story is Dan Blather and lying John Kerry and Terry McAuliffith forging those documents in an effort to discredit George Bush.

It is hard to believe that a DemLib candidate would stoop so low to forge docs then I remember how Hilliary Clinton hid those Travelgate docs. How they forged that Vince Foster suicide note.
Wow. How CBS made up that stuff about General Westmoreland and then had to pay him millions in a liabilty suit. You can't put anything past them. Evil dooers, all of them.

WOW.

JM


;) ;)

[ElKabong]

JM,

Having some fun with tonites 60 minutes show at swiftvets.com.

Here Rather is interviewing an 86yo lady and not interviewing the following people.

General Hodges....Killian's son......2 pilots that would vouch for GWB's physical and attendance.........the three so-called document experts that cBS paid to weigh in on the authenticity of the docs that were on ABC, NBC saying the docs are fakes........Killian's wife.........1972-73 director of the ANG, Colonel Lively, etc, etc....

All would say Rather's agenda is wrong headed and false, thus weren't on air.

So who does Dan Rather run out there tonight for an interview on "60 minutes"?... An 86 year old woman!

Bwaaaaaahahahaha !!

Rather has become the laffing stock of the industry the past week but tonite he topped himself.

:D :D

[Tom]

Originally posted by Derek2U
good night gents I gotta rent a movie tonight I'm feeling Very
HollyWood .... call me i'm waiting by the phone. 212-426-****
LOL hey, maybe i'll reveal my last 4 digits 2 ya. lol



3654 :eek:

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by ElKabong
I won't pick on an 86yo lady, I'll just state the facts.

Killian's son was in that unit as a pilot (closer to his dad than the secty was), does he get interviewed or does some 86yo secty?



That little old lady surprised me. Quite lucid. She answered your point above quite clearly. She said it was his Killian's private file, and his son just wouldn't know those things.

Obviously, Killian's son, an RNC contributor doesn't want his father to have inadvertently brought down someone that he financially has supported in the campaign.

You focus on everything EXCEPT the content of the memos.

Why did Bush disregard a direct order? Where is the documentation for that physical? Why did he disregard it? Why did he not complete the rest of his guard assignment in Boston?

That said...I will repeat this. I could give a rat's ass about this. What bothers me is what Bush has done since 2001. Obviously, even Lugar and Hagle are now struggling with the disaster in Iraq, his ineptitide in expanding our deficits to the greatest of all time, the worst job loss of any President, the lowereing of the median wage adjusted for inflation, his promotion of outsourcing as "good" for America, and his environmental record described by the Sierra Club as the worst environmental record of any President.

I realize you're partisan, and I'm Ok with that. But Elk, he's the wrong man at the wrong point in history. He does swagger nicely, and occasaionally says the right words on the monitor, but four more years of this may wreak havoc on our children's future.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Secretariat
That little old lady surprised me. Quite lucid. She answered your point above quite clearly. She said it was his Killian's private file, and his son just wouldn't know those things.

Obviously, Killian's son, an RNC contributor doesn't want his father to have inadvertently brought down someone that he financially has supported in the campaign.

You focus on everything EXCEPT the content of the memos.

Why did Bush disregard a direct order? Where is the documentation for that physical? Why did he disregard it? Why did he not complete the rest of his guard assignment in Boston?

That said...I will repeat this. I could give a rat's ass about this. What bothers me is what Bush has done since 2001. Obviously, even Lugar and Hagle are now struggling with the disaster in Iraq, his ineptitide in expanding our deficits to the greatest of all time, the worst job loss of any President, the lowereing of the median wage adjusted for inflation, his promotion of outsourcing as "good" for America, and his environmental record described by the Sierra Club as the worst environmental record of any President.

I realize you're partisan, and I'm Ok with that. But Elk, he's the wrong man at the wrong point in history. He does swagger nicely, and occasaionally says the right words on the monitor, but four more years of this may wreak havoc on our children's future.


Coming next week: cBS will resort to Overdubbing "canned laughter" during Dan Rather newscasts when he reports on the election and 60 minutes.

Dan: Last week I reported on GWB not showing up for a physical in 1972 and trying to prove that he should lose the election on that mistake, alone (laughter). All my sources have turned on me like the Raiders did on coach Mike Clanaghan last year. They're calling me "the dumbest anchor in the business". (laughter)

After much barbs and heat I've taken for trying to think I could run a Jr High prank on the public, we're taking a new tact.

Tonight, we have a new witness entering the debate: a credible one. The eighty six year old former secretary of Jerry Killian is here to set my record straight for me since the Generals and Commanders of the Texas ANG won't lie to my favor."

This secretary will tell you that even though we at cBS committed/ allowed fraud, her boss of 30 years ago thinks GWB might have missed a physical. (laughter). Tell us your story, and please try to look at me this time and not side to side. It looks like you're trying to remember your lines (laughter).

[JustMissed]

Elk, I know what you are saying and no one wants to see Dan Blather get his due more than me but it is also very sad.

It is sad that lying John Kerry and Terry McAuliffith would drag a dead man's family, the Killian's through all this.

It is sad thay lying John Kerry and Terry McAuliffith would use a near senile newsman to promote their personal agenda while putting Blather's career in almost certain perail.

It is sad that Dan Blather would in an effort to CYA(Cover His Ass) would drag a poor 86 year old pool secretary on national TV and basicly say"Let's ignore the facts and we will just say your opinion is the 'Truth'."

It is sad that the good and decent people of the Demorcratic Party have been taken over by those so full of hate and anger that the party may be beyond redemption.

I'll be glad when November rolls around. Maybe we can start fresh and maybe the Dems can come up with a decent candidate by 2008.

JM

[JustRalph]

Several pilots in the unit have said that you don't get memo's or direct orders to get your physical. Especially when it isn't required for another month. That memo is crap and Bush did not disregard a direct order. Flight physicals are dated requirements and that memo was written long before Bush's birthday. The physical is due 30 days after his birthday, anybody else see a problem with that? This stuff is pure unadulterated Bullshit. Rather and CBS news never thought they would get caught on it. If a pilot misses a physical deadline the flight surgeon reports it to his commander. Then the crap hits the fan. Not a month before the physical is due. Bush has said he didn't take the physical because the unit didn't have any aircraft he was qualified to fly. It makes sense. When you get back to a unit that you can fly in, you just have to take the physical. End of story. Or even if you can't fly anything in the unit, you wouldn't say no to a physical ordered by a commander. The Dems next step is to imply he didnt' take the physical because he was afraid of drugs being detected. The problem with that is, the Air Force didn't institute that testing until the 80's ........so that won't work either.

The fact that Dan Rather is using "code words" like "Fail to obey a direct order" is his way of adding effect for Vets. Every veteran is familiar with that term. It is a criminal act under the Uniform Code of Military Justice to "fail to obey a direct order" Rather is using it for effect with veterans.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Secretariat


You focus on everything EXCEPT the content of the memos.

.


Why would I "focus" on the content of fake memos?

Have Kerry sign the SF180...If he has nothing to hide and all records are clean, it'll pull him outta the ditch he's in. It's the only thing that can save him now.

You and I both know Kerry has BAD sh_t he's hiding. Otherwise he'd have signed the 180 two months ago to put the swifts allegations to rest.

Ball's in Kerry's court. Has been for some time.

[JustMissed]

JR, you are a pretty good detective.

Do you know when George Bush's birthday is and also what is the date of the letter telling Bush to get the physical.

I have not seen this info anywhere else but I swear even the 86 year old secretary mentioned birthdate and physical.

This could be a smoking gun.

Bravo.

JM


;)

[ElKabong]

JR,

I left active duty in Oct79, never peed in a bottle. What you're saying is correct, at least in my case.

Killian's son did say that he gave Mapes the names of two pilots who could vouch for GWB's physical. Not sure if that meant they were in teh same situation as GWB (assigned to a unit w/o aircraft they'd trained for previously), or if he did indeed take one.

Every Vet I know understands Rather is trying to pull a cheap stunt and attempting to sway voters.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by JustMissed
JR, you are a pretty good detective.

Do you know when George Bush's birthday is and also what is the date of the letter telling Bush to get the physical.

I have not seen this info anywhere else but I swear even the 86 year old secretary mentioned birthdate and physical.

This could be a smoking gun.

Bravo.

JM


;)

JM,

I'd posted his birthday was in July...he had till 7/31 to take that physical.

The memo (i'm trying to locate it on the net) was in May if I'm not mistaken...he still had 2 months to take it.....like JR said, it's bullshit.

[JustMissed]

I googled July 6, 1946.

What was the date of the Kellian letter to Bush saying he was off flight status?

JM

[ElKabong]

JM,,

Here's the cBS fake memo...it's dated MAY 19 (page 1, paragraph 2 is the mention of GWB needing to take a physical).

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardmay19.pdf

[ElKabong]

This chit just keeps on getting better and better.....

Drudge reports that the FAKE cBS docs were originated from a Kinko's (copy center) in Abeline, Tx. His source is the Washington Post.

Burkett lives *where*, Sec??????

http://www.drudgereport.com/

[JustRalph]

The Pee Tests Started in around 83 if I remember right. As a supervisor I used to have to draw 4 names from a hat on our Security Force Shift at the end of the day. Those four guys were taken off post and I had to drive them to the base hospital and literally watch them Pee in the bottle with a nurse. Then Sign the label on the bottle with the nurse. It was tons of fun....;)

I remember some pilots getting nailed for taking caffeine tabs when this type of testing started. Then it was revealed that the Wing was providing them with the tabs........oops.........

[JustMissed]

I have been unable to find out exactly when an Air Guard pilot was suppose to take his physical?

Is it on his birthdate or exactly 1 year from his last physical.

I think we need to know this before we persue this angle any further.

JM

[ElKabong]

Most effing cool! This is falling apart for the dems much faster than I could imagine.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24635-2004Sep15.html

CBS Guard Documents Traced to Tex. Kinko's
Records Reportedly Faxed From Abilene

By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 16, 2004; Page A06

Documents allegedly written by a deceased officer that raised questions about President Bush's service with the Texas Air National Guard bore markings showing they had been faxed to CBS News from a Kinko's copy shop in Abilene, Tex., according to another former Guard officer who was shown the records by the network.

The markings provide one piece of evidence suggesting a source for the documents, whose authenticity has been hotly disputed since CBS aired them in a "60 Minutes" broadcast Sept. 8. The network has declined to name the person who provided them, saying the source was confidential, or to explain how the documents came to light after more than three decades.

There is only one Kinko's in Abilene, and it is 21 miles from the Baird, Tex., home of retired Texas National Guard officer Bill Burkett, who has been named by several news outlets as a possible source for the documents.

Robert Strong, who was one of three people interviewed by "60 minutes," said he was shown copies of the documents by CBS anchor Dan Rather and producer Mary Mapes on Sept. 5, three days before the broadcast. He said at least one of the documents bore a faxed header indicating it had been sent from a Kinko's in Abilene.

Strong's comments came as CBS News President Andrew Heyward in an interview acknowledged that there were "unresolved issues" that the network wanted "to get to the bottom of." Since the broadcast, critics have pointed to a host of unexplained problems about the memos, which bore dates from 1972 and 1973, including signs that they had been written on a computer rather than a Vietnam-era typewriter.

"I feel that we did a tremendous amount of reporting before the story went on the air or we wouldn't have put it on the air," Heyward said in an interview last night, while acknowledging "a ferocious debate about these documents."

Asked what role Burkett may have played in CBS's reporting of the report, Heyward said: "I'm not going to get into any discussion of who the sources are."

Burkett, who has accused Bush aides of ordering the destruction of some portions of the president's National Guard record because they might have been politically embarrassing, did not return telephone calls to his home. His lawyer, David Van Os, issued a statement on Burkett's behalf saying he "no longer trusts any possible outcome of speaking to the press on any issue regarding George W. Bush and does not choose to dignify recent spurious attacks upon his character with any comment."

In news interviews earlier this year, Burkett said he overheard a telephone conversation in the spring of 1997 in which top Bush aides asked the head of the Texas National Guard to sanitize Bush's files as he was running for a second term as governor of Texas. Several days later, he said, he saw dozens of pages from Bush's military file dumped in a trash can at Camp Mabry, the Guard's headquarters.

The Bush aides Burkett named as participants in the telephone conversation were Chief of Staff Joe M. Allbaugh and spokespersons Karen Hughes and Dan Bartlett. All three Bush aides and former Texas National Guard Maj. Gen. Daniel James have strongly denied the allegations.

Suspicions that Burkett could have been a source for the CBS documents first surfaced earlier this week when Newsweek magazine reported that Mapes flew to Texas to interview him over the summer. Yesterday, the New York Times reported that a CBS staffer, speaking on condition of anonymity, confirmed that Burkett was a source for the "60 Minutes" report but "did not know the exact role he played."

Yesterday reporters from several news organizations were camped near Blair, Tex., outside Burkett's home, which is on a working ranch, with a gate barring access to a one-story farmhouse and a pickup truck outside. At 6 p.m. Central Time, Burkett walked to the gate on his cane with a black dog by his side to collect his mail. He refused to answer questions over whether he provided the documents to CBS.

"Get out my way," he told the reporters. "You need to go home."

Earlier this year, Burkett gave interviews to numerous news outlets, including The Washington Post, alleging corruption and malfeasance at the top of the Texas National Guard, many of which have never been substantiated. He has also been a named source for several reports by USA Today, which reported Monday that it had independently obtained copies of the disputed memos soon after the broadcast.

[Secretariat]

I understand that Sixty Minutes II was not shown in some markets, such as Chattanoga, Oklahoma City, and some places in Virgina.

It is a shame as there was a wonderful interview with General Boykin, and Matthew Broderick, as well as an itnerviw with Mrs. Knox.

Since many of you are relying on hearsay by Elk on what Mrs. Knox might have said, and may have missed the interview, hereis a link with a transcript and video if you'd like to aovid your local censors.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/15/60II/main643768.shtml

[Tom]

I think the biggest fool on the internet has been outed today.
Dozens of SB Vets say one thing and they are all liars and, I qoute, "Shit bot vets." A man's wife and son say one thing and offer two other reliable people to talk to and he takes the word of an old secretary, who he even seems suprised that she was lucid.
This guy is either a plant or a moron. Or he is actually Ramadan Rather himself.
Whoever, whatever he is, it is not worth mentioning his name. OR wasting time replying to, since he is delusional and not only cannot accept the truth, he keeps denying it and side stepping it.
He is the mindless sheep that the DNC covets. I only hope he lives in a trailer park in Mobile.

[JustMissed]

Please read the whole article at drudgereport.com:

"By Howard Kurtz
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 16, 2004; Page A01

CBS anchor Dan Rather acknowledged for the first time yesterday that there are serious questions about the authenticity of the documents he used to question President Bush's National Guard record last week on "60 Minutes."

"If the documents are not what we were led to believe, I'd like to break that story," Rather said in an interview last night. "Any time I'm wrong, I want to be right out front and say, 'Folks, this is what went wrong and how it went wrong.' "


I LAUGHED SO HARD I FELL OUT OF MY COMPUTER CHAIR.

The gig over Dano, you're busted.

I'm sure we will hear tommorrow how the docs were forged and cBS got duped and how the forged docs don't mean Geoge Bush didn't do this or do that.

But you can't build a house on sinking sand and you can't build a news story on forged docs. Sorry Dan, you lose and lying John Kerry loses even more.

We don't even need any linkage to Blather and the Kerry campaign either. It is so obvious Ray Charles could see it.

I sent John Ascroft an email earlier asking him to look into criminal charges for forging U.S. Government documents.

Great detective work fellows. You did good.

JM

:)

[ElKabong]

"Pay no attention to the Dan behind the curtain!"

[Secretariat]

JM,

I spoke with John Ashcroft yesterday. He said your email address is blocked.

[ElKabong]

Just heard something interesting.....Someone @ cBS leaked the "Abeline source" info to the WaPost.... Reasons, (1) it will take some of the immediate heat off Rather and cBS, and onto Bill Burkett, and (2) it gives the appearance of cBS not openly naming their source.

This might be a reason why the "announcement" by cBS was late in coming....they were debating on whether to throw Burkett under the bus or take the blame themselves. Looks like they decided they effed up and decided to send Burkett down the road hanging onto the axle.

Too late for Rather. His career is stained. What a skidmark he's become.

[JustMissed]

Doing a little blogging tonight at rathergate.com.

Seems like Blathers' spin/cya tactic won't work.

The bloggers are out for blood and will be contacting the cBS/Viacom shareholders and boycotting the sponsors of cBS news and other programing.

Thank God Al Gore invented the internet.hehehe.

JM

:)

[Larry Hamilton]

Just a note and an observation. It took all day to set up the story. The truth would have taken 5 minutes.

[PaceAdvantage]

Isn't this the funniest crap you've ever heard? And Sec will still jump up and down and say the content of the fake memos is what's important!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????


ROTFLMAOBT

:D :D :eek: :eek: :D :D

[ElKabong]

Just when I thought this story couldn't get weirder...

Remember the 86 yo secty? The one that was "lucid"....She spoke tonite (and in interviews the past 2 days) on 60 minutes as if she knew Bush well, right???

Well why would she make this comment last week in the Houston Chronicle-- "Last week, Knox said she had no firsthand knowledge of Bush's time with the Texas Air National Guard...."

So, last week she had "no firsthand knowledge" of GWB's ANG time, yet tonite she looked like some half assed coached interviewee.....amazing.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2796630

[ElKabong]

some reading material for anyone interested....this all ties in pretty well, especially if you're somewhat familiar with Texas or southwest politics. I could post up dozens of links...I'll spare it. Amazing they thought they'd never get caught, it's as if they wanted to fail on purpose.


http://www.geocities.com/stoutdem/bb525.html

http://www.geocities.com/stoutdem/bb527.html

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/045912.php

and his lawyer, david van os....

http://www.vanosforsupremecourt.com/dvo_photo_album_campaign.htm

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/007814.php

[ElKabong]

What are the odds that Burkett's lawyer rubs elbows with none other than James Carville ???????

http://www.vanosforsupremecourt.com/photo_album/vanos_album_49.jpg

Yeah Sec, "there's no DNC involvement here everyone, just keep moving along"....

[JustMissed]

Here's the link to clinton and the same DemLib lawyer.

http://ace.mu.nu/

Wait til all the linkage of Kerry, Rather, Clinton, Carvile and the forger is public- Could be the biggest story of the campaign.

Too late to think sacrificing Blather will help.

The cat is out of the bag.

LMAO

JM
:)

[Secretariat]

Elk,

Aren't you gonna feel like an idiot if Burkett is not the source denigrating the man after suffering from the ravages of an illness he encountered while on duty in Panama?

It's your sick way, I guess, of denigrating another vet without any piece of proof it was him.

You are assured and attempt to link this somehow with the Kerry campaign, while dismissing any link of the Swift Boaters to the Bush campaign.

You attack an 86 year old woman who said to a national audience that the content contained in those memos was accurate. Yes, she said she didn't type it, but it was in Killian's private file, so perhaps he typed them himself. I have a secretary, but I do type my own memos on occasion espeically relating to things I want kept private.

You refuse to deal with the content of the memos, and even the WH does not question that, but instead focuses on misdirection from the real questions?

Why did Bush refuse to take a physical for Guard service, and why was he allowed to get away with it?

Why did he not fulfill his service in Boston?

Why does his commanding officer have absolutely no recollection of him in Alabama?

Why does Linda Allison remember a different GW Bush than I am hearing about on this board?

Sorry, don't have link so am using excerpts:

George W. Bush's missing year
The widow of a Bush family confidant says her husband gave the future president an Alabama Senate campaign job as a favor to his worried father. Did they see him do any National Guard service? "Good lord, no."

Salon.News
By Mary Jacoby

Sept. 2, 2004 | NEW YORK -- Before there was Karl Rove, Lee Atwater or even James Baker, the Bush family's political guru was a gregarious newspaper owner and campaign consultant from Midland, Texas, named Jimmy Allison. In the spring of 1972, George H.W. Bush phoned his friend and asked a favor: Could Allison find a place on the Senate campaign he was managing in Alabama for his troublesome eldest son, the 25-year-old George W. Bush?

"The impression I had was that Georgie was raising a lot of hell in Houston, getting in trouble and embarrassing the family, and they just really wanted to get him out of Houston and under Jimmy's wing," Allison's widow, Linda, told me. "And Jimmy said, 'Sure.' He was so loyal."

Linda Allison's story, never before published, contradicts the Bush campaign's assertion that George W. Bush transferred from the Texas Air National Guard to the Alabama National Guard in 1972 because he received an irresistible offer to gain high-level experience on the campaign of Bush family friend Winton "Red" Blount. In fact, according to what Allison says her late husband told her, the younger Bush had become a political liability for his father, who was then the United States ambassador to the United Nations, and the family wanted him out of Texas. "I think they wanted someone they trusted to keep an eye on him," Linda Allison said.

….

Personal history aside, Allison's recollections of the young George Bush in Alabama in 1972 are relevant as a contrast to the medals for valor and bravery that Kerry won in Vietnam in the same era. An apparent front group for the Bush campaign, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, has attacked Kerry in television ads as a liar and traitor to veterans for later opposing a war that cost 58,000 American lives. Bush, who has resisted calls from former Vietnam War POW John McCain, R-Ariz., to repudiate the Swift Boat ads, has said he served honorably in the National Guard.

Allison's account corroborates a Washington Post investigation in February that found no credible witnesses to the service in the Alabama National Guard that Bush maintains he performed, despite a lack of documentary evidence. Asked if she'd ever seen Bush in a uniform, Allison said: "Good lord, no. I had no idea that the National Guard was involved in his life in any way." Allison also confirmed previously published accounts that Bush often showed up in the Blount campaign offices around noon, boasting about how much alcohol he had consumed the night before. (Bush has admitted that he was a heavy drinker in those years, but he has refused to say whether he also used drugs).

"After about a month I asked Jimmy what was Georgie's job, because I couldn't figure it out. I never saw him do anything. He told me it basically consisted of him contacting people who were impressed by his name and asking for contributions and support," Allison said.

C. Murphy Archibald, a nephew of Red Blount by marriage and a Vietnam veteran who volunteered on the campaign from September 1972 until election night, corroborated Allison's recollections, though he doesn't recall that the Bush name carried much cachét in Alabama at the time. "I say that because the scuttlebutt on the campaign was that Allison was very sharp and might actually be able to pull off this difficult race" against the incumbent Democrat, Sen. John Sparkman, Archibald said. "But then no one understood why he brought this young guy from Texas along. It was like, 'Who was this guy who comes in late and leaves early? And why would Jimmy Allison, who was so impressive, bring him on?'"

Bush, who had a paid slot as Allison's deputy in a campaign staffed largely by volunteers, sat in a little office next to Allison's, said Archibald, a workers compensation lawyer in Charlotte, N.C. Indeed, when Bush was actually there, he did make phone calls to county chairmen. But he neglected his other duty: the mundane but important task of mailing out campaign materials to the county campaign chairs. Archibald took up the slack, at Allison's request. "Jimmy didn't say anything about George. He just said, 'These materials are not getting out. It's causing the candidate problems. Will you take it over?'"

While Kerry earned a Silver Star and a Bronze Star after saving a crewmate's life under fire on the Mekong River in Vietnam, by contrast, the Georgie that Allison knew was a young man whose parents did not allow him to live with the consequences of his own mistakes. His powerful father -- whom the son seemed to both idolize and resent -- was a lifeline for Bush out of predicaments. After Bush graduated from Yale in 1968, his slot in the Texas Air National Guard allowed him to avoid active duty service in Vietnam. The former speaker of the Texas state House, Democrat Ben Barnes, now admits he pulled strings to get Bush his coveted guard slot, and says he's "ashamed" of the deed. "60 Minutes" will air an interview with Barnes next Wednesday, but George H.W. Bush denounced Barnes' claims in an interview aired on CBS. "They keep saying that and it's a lie, a total lie. Nobody's come up with any evidence, and yet it's repeated all the time," the former president said, in what could just as well describe the playbook for the Swift Boat Veterans ads.

Yet, after receiving unusual permission to transfer to the Alabama Guard from Texas, Bush has produced no evidence he showed up for service for anything other than a dental exam. Later, Bush would trade on his father's connections to enter the oil business, and when his ventures failed, trade on more connections to find investors to bail him out. Linda Allison's story fills in the details about a missing chapter in the story of how George Bush Sr.'s friends helped his wastrel son. The Bush campaign, decamped to New York for the convention, did not return a phone call by late Wednesday.

….

The break happened not long after a boozy election-night wake for Blount, who lost his Senate bid to the incumbent Democrat, John Sparkman. Leaving the election-night "celebration," Allison remembers encountering George W. Bush in the parking lot, urinating on a car, and hearing later about how he'd yelled obscenities at police officers that night. Bush left a house he'd rented in Montgomery trashed -- the furniture broken, walls damaged and a chandelier destroyed, the Birmingham News reported in February. "He was just a rich kid who had no respect for other people's possessions," Mary Smith, a member of the family who rented the house, told the newspaper, adding that a bill sent to Bush for repairs was never paid. And a month later, in December, during a visit to his parents' home in Washington, Bush drunkenly challenged his father to go "mano a mano," as has often been reported.

Around the same time, for the 1972 Christmas holiday, the Allisons met up with the Bushes on vacation in Hobe Sound, Fla. Tension was still evident between Bush and his parents. Linda was a passenger in a car driven by Barbara Bush as they headed to lunch at the local beach club. Bush, who was 26 years old, got on a bicycle and rode in front of the car in a slow, serpentine manner, forcing his mother to crawl along. "He rode so slowly that he kept having to put his foot down to get his balance, and he kept in a weaving pattern so we couldn't get past," Allison recalled. "He was obviously furious with his mother about something, and she was furious at him, too."

….

More than a quarter century later, George W. Bush is running for reelection as a "war" president. At the Republican Convention, delegates pass out Purple Heart stickers mocking Kerry's Vietnam wounds as "a self-inflicted scratch," and George H.W. Bush, speaking on CNN, lauds the Swift Boat Veterans' claims against Kerry as "rather compelling." Karl Rove tells the Associated Press that Kerry's opposition to a war that Bush avoided had served to "tarnish the records and service of people who were defending our country and fighting communism." Barbara Bush tells USA Today: "I die over every untruth that I hear about George -- I mean, every one."

Linda Allison watches it all from her New York apartment. About George W. Bush's disputed sojourn in Alabama, she asks simply: "Can we all be lying?"

[ElKabong]

Hi sec,

1) no, I'm sure I'm correct. Burkett is involved.

2) the swiftboatvets have raised serious questions of Kerry's military record. In fact they've outed him as a fraud on many of Kerry's assertions, even now the US Navy is looking into Kerry's fraud medals and citations. Also note they were the ones that pointed out that Kerry's book and his testimonys and written docs don't match.

Compare that with the Texans without Truth (ben barnes, etc). They forge docs, they lie on natl tv, now they're ratting on each other (robert strong/ bill burkett).

3) you say I don't deal with the "content of the memos". Hey PA, look! You were right, Sec's jumping up and down about the content of fake memos, LOLOLOL.

4) The physical? You mean the one the FAKE document said he had to get done immediately even tho it wasn't due to be taken until July? LOLOLOL.

5) His CO might should have gotten out more, he might have met GWB just like these gents in the Bama ANG did.

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/040216/bush.shtml

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/13/elec04.prez.bush.texas.records/

Now sec, when is Kerry going to sign that SF 180? You know the heat will stay on till he signs it, LOL.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by ElKabong
Hi sec,

1) no, I'm sure I'm correct. Burkett is involved.

2) the swiftboatvets have raised serious questions of Kerry's military record. In fact they've outed him as a fraud on many of Kerry's assertions, even now the US Navy is looking into Kerry's fraud medals and citations. Also note they were the ones that pointed out that Kerry's book and his testimonys and written docs don't match.

Compare that with the Texans without Truth (ben barnes, etc). They forge docs, they lie on natl tv, now they're ratting on each other (robert strong/ bill burkett).

3) you say I don't deal with the "content of the memos". Hey PA, look! You were right, Sec's jumping up and down about the content of fake memos, LOLOLOL.

4) The physical? You mean the one the FAKE document said he had to get done immediately even tho it wasn't due to be taken until July? LOLOLOL.

5) His CO might should have gotten out more, he might have met GWB just like these gents in the Bama ANG did.

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/040216/bush.shtml

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/13/elec04.prez.bush.texas.records/

Now sec, when is Kerry going to sign that SF 180? You know the heat will stay on till he signs it, LOL.

Why do I bother? I've address all the other crap you've floated here, so I'll address the eyewitness. How old are you anyway? High school?

First, no one ever said George never showed in AL. Only that he went AWOL while working on the blount campaign there.

I beleive Copeland in your article who saw him "twice."

However, even he has his questions according to "your" article:

“While Copeland said he thinks claims that Bush was AWOL are baseless, he said one thing puzzles him.

"All Bush would have to do to get proof of his Alabama service is pick up the phone and contact military records," he said. "It seems a little odd that he hasn't done that."

Copeland also is puzzled by dental records that Bush produced as evidence of his duties at Dannelly.

"We had no dentist at Dannelly Field," Copeland said. "The only dentists were at Maxwell (Air Force Base)." “

And as for Calhoun:

I know you like the Houston Chornicle. Well ,they've debunked his story as well as the Brimingham News.

Here's the Birmingham News:

RECORDS, EX-OFFICER'S BUSH STORY DON'T JIBE

Military records released by the White House contradict a former Alabama Air Guard officer's account of President Bush's service at a Montgomery base.

And Josh Marshall's article referring to the Houston Chronicle article.

(February 14, 2004 -- 03:26 PM EDT // link // print)
I'M WAITING TO see what journalists are able to make of the president's Friday night military service record document dump. I don't have copies of them. So, like you, I'm waiting to hear what they find. Yesterday, though, there was a new development when one of the president's fellow Guardsmen, John B. Calhoun, came forward to say that he clearly remembered him showing up for his required drills in Alabama through the summer and fall of 1972.

"We didn't have the planes that he could fly," Calhoun told the Associated Press. "But he studied his manuals, he read flying safety regulations, accident reports -- things pilots do quite often when they are not getting ready to fly or if they don't have other duties."

Interestingly, though, as the Houston Chronicle notes this morning, the documents released Friday night show "Bush's transfer to the Alabama squadron wasn't approved until September 1972, months after Bush's presence as recalled by Calhoun."

Oops."

OK, we got a guy who saw him twice in Alabama, and a guy who has been discredited by the Birmingham News and Houston Chronicle, and we got Linda Allison whose account I have posted of party boy GW, and a commanding officer who can't remember him, and it appears nobody else over a years time that can remember him except a guy from the Blount campaign.

Man, pretty lame. I could get a lot of guys from the 70's to say what I was doring that time. Amazing, that someone with the Bush name can't find anyone to account for much of his time there.

I will say this. I can't prove he as AWOL. But my "opinion" was he was. You on the other hand KNOW Burkett is the source for CBS. It's called hubris my friend.

[ElKabong]

Sec,

Link those articles. I'd like to see them.

I go back to Killian's son providing CBS two pilots that could ansswer the questions that CBS' Mapes posed to him about GWB's service and the mysterious physical.....Apparently the two pilots weren't even contacted by Mapes or Rather.

But they did find a 86yo pool secty.

As for Rather's star witness (86yo lady), I heard Killian's son say she wasn't even Killian's secty. She was a pool secty that served a number of officers at the same time. He nicely discounted her story (as if it matters to you).

[JustRalph]

From Drudge

CBS CONCERN OVER VIEWERSHIP PLUNGE; RATHER RATINGS FADE IN MAJOR MARKETS

CBS executives on both coasts have become concerned in recent days that Dan Rather's EVENING NEWS broadcast has plunged in the ratings since the anchor presented questionable documents about Bush's National Guard service.

NIELSEN numbers released this week show Rather fading and trailing his rivals in every Top 10 city, other than San Francisco, with audience margins in some cities running more than 6 to 1 against CBS!

Executives fear many voters inclined to vote for Bush are now switching off Rather.

"The audience appears to [be] polarized," a top CBS source said from LOS ANGELES on Thursday. "Rightly or wrongly, we're being perceived as 'anti-Bush,' which I do not think is fair to Dan, who is a fine journalist... of course we do not like to see the ratings coming back the way they are this week."

In Philadelphia, the nation's #4 market, Rather pulled a 2.6 rating/5 share on Tuesday night against ABC's 13.3 rating/23 share and NBC's 4.0/7.

In Chicago, Rather hit a 2.3/5 to ABC's 9.2/20.

CBS trailed ABC by more than 2 to 1 in Los Angeles.

And in the nation's top market, New York, Rather finished not only behind NBC NIGHTLY NEWS and ABC WORLD NEWS TONIGHT -- but also pulled less audience than reruns of the SIMPSONS, WILL & GRACE and KING OF QUEENS.

Rather finished dead last in New York during the 6:30 pm timeslot among all broadcast channels tracked by NIELSEN on Tuesday.

[ElKabong]

At this rate, 60 minutes only sponsor for 2005 will be Kinko's :D

[schweitz]

Let's see---we have Burkett living in Travis County Texas and who hates Bush

----we have Burkett's lawyer living in Travis County Texas who says he has been to every Democratic Convention since 1972 and is a Democratic fundraiser

---we have Ben Barnes living in Travis County Texas who hates Bush and is a Democratic fundraiser

---we have a Travis County Texas Kinkos that sent the fax

---we have Dan Rather's Democratic daughter living in Travis County Texas

--- and we have Dan Rather as the guest speaker at a Travis County Texas Democratic fundraiser


Nope---I guess there isn't anything suspicious here.





:rolleyes:

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by JustMissed
Here's the link to clinton and the same DemLib lawyer.

http://ace.mu.nu/

:)


I did not eat that cheeseburger....

[JustMissed]

Thanks Elk for the photo of our former impeached president bill clinton.

Who is the guy with him?

Oh, I know, that is David Van Os, the attorney for the alleged Memo-Gate forger Bill Burkett.

Can't wait for the cBS evening news with Dan Blather.I wonder what he will be talking about tonight? hehehe

Later, I might watch a little cable news and see what's going on. Wonder what they will be talking about tonight?hehehe

Think I might go blogging for a while and get caught up on the late, breaking news.I wonder what they will be talking about?

I wonder where Dan Blather went to journalism school? I bet it was somewhere in Texas. I think I'll google ole Dano and check that out. I bet his old journalism professors are real proud of him.

See ya,

JM

[ElKabong]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1218004/posts

Helps to have a scorecard. Link shows a connection to all the aforementioned names.

[Tom]

I used to have just one litmus test for judging whether a person was a total lunatic....if they though OJ was innocent, he was a total lunatic and I would run the other way.
Now, thanks to Ramadan Rather, I have two tests. Tis is soooo funnny. Times is ticking away and the only time you ever see Kerry, he is defending himself and you never see Edwards.
These to loons are a lauging stock and their supporters make Halloween look like Sunday school.

[schweitz]

Originally posted by ElKabong
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1218004/posts

Helps to have a scorecard. Link shows a connection to all the aforementioned names.

Thanks El---grreat post.

[boxcar]

so.cal.fan wrote:

Don't you think that....just maybe.......maybe.....Sen. Joe Lieberman would have been a more credible candidate to oppose GWB?
This is just a disgraceful campaign and has turned many of us off that would have voted Democratic.

I'm not a DemRat, nor have I ever been. But if Lieb or Zell Miller were opposing Bush right now, I'd have to give very serious consideration to these kinds of Democrats.

But remember, SCF: These "kinds" of Democrats are really fish out of water in their own party because they're far, far to conservative for the Democratic Party of the 21st Century -- a party that is being driven to the Very Far Left by various Fringe groups within it.

Boxcar

[ElKabong]

Bill Burkett was a "source for information" for the movie F911....Nice!

http://www.ommp.org/guest/The%20true%20objective%20in%20Iraq.htm

snipped from credit at bottom of page---- Burkett was one of five subjects in James Moore's book, "Bush's War for ReElection," and one of the sources for information in the Michael Moore's film "Farenheit 911."

[JustRalph]

New Poll from Gallup shows Bush with a 13 point lead. Don't know if I believe that........but I did notice an interesting quote for the artice on the Drudge Report.

"Sen. Kerry is like Seabiscuit: He runs better from behind"


I was thinking he is like Seabiscuit too.......................





they share the same face....................

[betchatoo]

Originally posted by JustRalph
New Poll from Gallup shows Bush with a 13 point lead. Don't know if I believe that........but I did notice an interesting quote for the artice on the Drudge Report.

"Sen. Kerry is like Seabiscuit: He runs better from behind"


I was thinking he is like Seabiscuit too.......................





they share the same face....................

And then we have the Republican candidate who is the other end of the horse

[JustRalph]

Nice........!

[ElKabong]

Just heard Colonel ( General, whatever) Staudt on ABC news radio at the top of the hour say that there was never any pressure applied by him to the ANG after his release from the ANG.

Listen to your ABC radio affiliate at the top of hour for his comments... Basically calls CBS news a pack of liars.

Leaving for the track with a big smile on my face :).

[JustRalph]

seabiscuit

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/gen/lgseabiscuit2.jpg

[Tom]

Originally posted by JustRalph
New Poll from Gallup shows Bush with a 13 point lead. Don't know if I believe that........but I did notice an interesting quote for the artice on the Drudge Report.

"Sen. Kerry is like Seabiscuit: He runs better from behind"


I was thinking he is like Seabiscuit too.......................

And Kerry has a horse's ass behind him....Edwards!





they share the same face....................

[Tom]

someliberal talk show today was lamenting about how Gallop is a biased poll, that they only call conservative neighborhoods, yadda yadda yadda. They were dismissing the poll because the homeless were not contacted.
Uh, how do you call the homeless???:rolleyes: Squeegie-gram?

[boxcar]

JustRalph wrote:

New Poll from Gallup shows Bush with a 13 point lead. Don't know if I believe that........but I did notice an interesting quote for the artice on the Drudge Report.

[b]"Sen. Kerry is like Seabiscuit: He runs better from behind"

Drudge would have said it better with: Kerry is running his campaign with his behind! (I believe as El Rushbo does: This ain't gonna be as close as an election as many pundits make it out to be. I think Bush will win with a margin between 5 to 10%)


I was thinking he is like Seabiscuit too.......................
they share the same face....................

Geesh...why do you want to insult a great race horse!?

Boxcar

[kenwoodallpromos]

Owner refused to run seabiscuit off track- he was not good in the mud.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Kerry hasn't proved to be good in the mud either! :cool:

[ElKabong]

It's the story that just won't die :cool:

(1) just heard that Burkett is suing cBS. For what? Taking Burkett at his word, lol..

(2) Burkett now is fingering someone named Lucy Ramirez as the person he got the fake docs from. This dude is in full retreat mode. He's now playing the role of Lee Harvey Oswald ("i'm a patsy").


Llllluuuuucy, you a gonna git it now!

http://usatoday.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=USATODAY.com+-+CBS+backs+off+Guard+story&expire=&urlID=11705426&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitic selections%2Fnation%2Fpresident%2F2004-09-21-cover-guard_x.htm&partnerID=1660

"I didn't forge anything," Burkett said. "I didn't fake any documents. The only thing I've done here is to transfer documents from people I thought were real to people I thought were real. And that has been the limitation of my role. I may have been a patsy."