Past posting .....again

[JustRalph]

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/230109/nyra-refunds-wager-previous-pool-being-investigated

[AlsoEligible]

Confusing that they would own up to it this weekend, but not say anything about last weekend. Figured they would go all in one way or the other.

My suspicion is that last week’s incident may have been isolated to only TwinSpires, with only a few bets affected, so NYRA did nothing. And today was a network-wide issue (with NYRA themselves not locking the pool on time), so they had to refund.

That’s probably the worst case scenario, since it shows widespread failures all over the industry.

In the words of our President, maybe NYRA needs a total shutdown of these multi-track pick pools, until they figure out what the hell is going on.

[Andy Asaro]

We've heard over and over again that this stuff doesn't happen. :rant:

[Gorrex]

These "special" bets are the one way it can happen easily. Their post signal is not controlled by the judges in almost if not all cases. They rely on a tote operator to watch their logs for when the judge locks the race and the do the same on the extra event.

Not hard but normally that tote operator is watching TV or sleeping or something as they really don't do much the rest of their shift. Its an extraordinarily boring job most of the time.

To fix it they would need to tie the main first race to the special event and often times the two events aren't even on the same tote system as host....

Until they do that 100% of the time it's going to remain possible. Screaming at operators will work for a month or so but the job will remain the same.

[GMB@BP]

Confusing that they would own up to it this weekend, but not say anything about last weekend. Figured they would go all in one way or the other.

My suspicion is that last week’s incident may have been isolated to only TwinSpires, with only a few bets affected, so NYRA did nothing. And today was a network-wide issue (with NYRA themselves not locking the pool on time), so they had to refund.

That’s probably the worst case scenario, since it shows widespread failures all over the industry.

In the words of our President, maybe NYRA needs a total shutdown of these multi-track pick pools, until they figure out what the hell is going on.

Why is it confusing? Public relations nightmare, if they thought the problem was fixed then it would likely not come out for a long while in some buried report.

[turfnsport]

These "special" bets are the one way it can happen easily. Their post signal is not controlled by the judges in almost if not all cases. They rely on a tote operator to watch their logs for when the judge locks the race and the do the same on the extra event.

Not hard but normally that tote operator is watching TV or sleeping or something as they really don't do much the rest of their shift. Its an extraordinarily boring job most of the time.

To fix it they would need to tie the main first race to the special event and often times the two events aren't even on the same tote system as host....

Until they do that 100% of the time it's going to remain possible. Screaming at operators will work for a month or so but the job will remain the same.

Seriously? It is really that hard to find somebody competent to do this job with millions at risk?

It's typical of this industry. Basically run by morons.

[horses4courses]

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/230109/nyra-refunds-wager-previous-pool-being-investigated

Have you placed your last horse racing wager?

[Gorrex]

It's not that the people aren't generally competent. There is only so much waiting anyone can do without loosing track of something.

Almost everything is automated now to some degree with a splatter of yes no prompts that are supposed to trigger human double checking but generally are blown through because the system is so rarely wrong now. Automation isn't bad, but once you hit a certain threshold in it then it requires complete automation for any critical tasks.

Introducing a manual task that requires action into that mix is only asking for trouble at some point.


I know some tote companies can link the two events to post simultaneously. That should be a requirement for hosting these extra pools. If that is done then the main problem is removed.

[Dave Schwartz]

It's not that the people aren't generally competent. There is only so much waiting anyone can do without loosing track of something.

Almost everything is automated now to some degree with a splatter of yes no prompts that are supposed to trigger human double checking but generally are blown through because the system is so rarely wrong now. Automation isn't bad, but once you hit a certain threshold in it then it requires complete automation for any critical tasks.

Introducing a manual task that requires action into that mix is only asking for trouble at some point.


I know some tote companies can link the two events to post simultaneously. That should be a requirement for hosting these extra pools. If that is done then the main problem is removed.

This is quite an intelligent response. It really has to be extremely difficult to keep one's attention sharp through this process.

Of course, from the public's POV, it is seen as "YOU'VE ONLY GOT THIS ONE JOB!"

Of course, the customer has the right to expect that near-perfect integrity should be a high concern. Currently, it is not high enough.

[AltonKelsey]

No way this should be manual , it should be programmed to shut on the first leg at whatever track is hosting .


Barring that , have TWO people responsible for the shutoff. If they still blow it , you fire them both

[Tom]

Until they do that 100% of the time it's going to remain possible. Screaming at operators will work for a month or so but the job will remain the same.

I would suggest in that case, Best Practices would tell you to not offer the bet until you are capable of offering it properly.

This is a business, not a hobby.
It has nothing to do with the competence of the employees - they are operating within the system the management has provided for them.

This is 100% a management error.

[Tom]

Of course, the customer has the right to expect that near-perfect integrity should be a high concern.

In the real world, the goal is zero defects.
1 in a million is NOT acceptable.
Customers expect zero defects.

Has been that way for many years now.
Ahsin,n in the real world. :rolleyes:

[Suff]

This is quite an intelligent response. It really has to be extremely difficult to keep one's attention sharp through this process.

Of course, from the public's POV, it is seen as "YOU'VE ONLY GOT THIS ONE JOB!"

Of course, the customer has the right to expect that near-perfect integrity should be a high concern. Currently, it is not high enough.

Human error is a science for sure, but we are well past that.



100% of the integrity depends on a night watchman not going to the bathroom at the wrong time.:lol:


2002 Breeders cup debacle seems so far away., and here we are in 2018. Shouldn't these systems be airtight by now? There should be a series of technical stops that would prevent this.

Autotote insider fraud has its own wikipedia page. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Breeders%27_Cup_betting_scandal) U can google and find dozens of pari-mutuel pool fraud stories almost annually.


The 2002 Breeders' Cup betting scandal was an incident that arose when computer programmer Chris Harn to manipulate bets in the 2002 Breeders' Cup

[Dave Schwartz]

In the real world, the goal is zero defects.
1 in a million is NOT acceptable.
Customers expect zero defects.

Has been that way for many years now.
Ahsin,n in the real world. :rolleyes:

That is an unrealistic expectation.

[metro]

In the real world, the goal is zero defects.
1 in a million is NOT acceptable.
Customers expect zero defects.

Has been that way for many years now.
Ahsin,n in the real world. :rolleyes:

In the real world tracks should be more transparent with their tote system since they have the ability to track any wager....on track, simulcast, ADW, etc..

Make them open their books up to an independent investigator (HANA??) Let's really see what's going on within the last minute or so of wagering. Are the whales really responsible for all the late odds drops? Are wagers on horizontals being punched after a one leg or more has been completed?

They would never do it though. No news it good news when it comes to the nuts and bolts of pari-mutuel wagering.

[Suff]

What NYRA didn't report is that a similar two-track, Pick 4 wager six days earlier is being investigated for a similar issue.

More than anything, if its true, human error twice in a week...,... These are whats known as "dry runs".

[Suff]

If you read the Bloodhorse article , whereby NYRA acknowledged past-posting capability happened on October 13th. But no past-posted bet were actually made. That it was just an oversight.

To believe that, then you have to believe what else is in the article.

That a week earlier on Oct 7th, a twinspires.com bettor inadvertently discovered that he could wager into the Pick4 in leg 3. So he did so. Then he immediately canceled his bets and called bloodhorse.com?

wtf? really? That's Impossible to believe. That did not happen. Because if that happened then there is NO way in hell it happened again Oct 13th.

[PaceAdvantage]

Does anyone really think if the guy at the podium at the NYSE DOESN'T press that button, trading actually WON'T open or close?

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

It's 2018 racing industry. Time to get your SHIT together...

ENOUGH

[PaceAdvantage]

If you read the Bloodhorse article , whereby NYRA acknowledged past-posting capability happened on October 13th. But no past-posted bet were actually made. That it was just an oversight.

To believe that, then you have to believe what else is in the article.

That a week earlier on Oct 7th, a twinspires.com bettor inadvertently discovered that he could wager into the Pick4 in leg 3. So he did so. Then he immediately canceled his bets and called bloodhorse.com?

wtf? really? That's Impossible to believe. That did not happen. Because if that happened then there is NO way in hell it happened again Oct 13th.Excellent point. Meet Fuss...:ThmbUp:

[Gorrex]

In the real world tracks should be more transparent with their tote system since they have the ability to track any wager....on track, simulcast, ADW, etc..



They really don't have the ability to track every wager, not in any quick way at least and not without cooperation of lots of 3rd parties.

Tracks cannot see the actual wagers being made into their pools unless they request that information and most times its not searchable (lucky if its not just a printed PDF file).

There WAS a system being designed to do that, but it was expensive and relied on parties with no benefit from it to pay for it.

Tracks see total amounts bet from each source and most have 50+ sources betting into any one track. (and there could be sources betting into each of those)

The current systems are NOT transparent and never will be until they are rebuilt from the ground up. However again, that is extremely expensive, would take years and there is no one in this industry that I'm aware of willing to expend that many resources. (if they even have them)

Anyone here willing to pony up a few million dollars with an absolute guarantee you won't get it back? (tote providers dont really make much money)

[Gorrex]

Oh and just to be clear.. while I am arguing that no one currently will redesign and build a new tote system, I fully believe it can and needs to happen. The current totes have little motivation or resources to do it. The project will never make financial sense on its own, but it is really required to bring this industry up to date with technology, transparency and general accountability.

The benefits of it would be many, however none of them equate to more profits and thus why it hasnt already been done.

Some of you say it should be easy to design such a system.. on the top of it, it is. However when you add in that every state has different pricing rules, different tax rules, different testing metrics and all of the other hoops you would need to go through.. the base software is not the hard part. Not at all.

[cj]

Oh and just to be clear.. while I am arguing that no one currently will redesign and build a new tote system, I fully believe it can and needs to happen. The current totes have little motivation or resources to do it. The project will never make financial sense on its own, but it is really required to bring this industry up to date with technology, transparency and general accountability.

The benefits of it would be many, however none of them equate to more profits and thus why it hasnt already been done.

Some of you say it should be easy to design such a system.. on the top of it, it is. However when you add in that every state has different pricing rules, different tax rules, different testing metrics and all of the other hoops you would need to go through.. the base software is not the hard part. Not at all.

Horse racing is siphoning millions and millions of dollars from casinos. Surely a few of the dollars should be used to upgrade things like the tote and the timing system IMO.

[Tom]

That is an unrealistic expectation.

That is the STANDARD in the auto industry, the aerospace industry.....has been for years. It is not unrealistic. It is the way of life.

I once had to supply a corrective action on I was going to improve my part per million rate of 20.

The key to achieving it is to stop whining and making excuses and just do it.

The racing industry is a joke.

[burnsy]

It’s just the same old crap in every one of these complaint threads. When the guy says it’s post time. The tote should be locked. Before the first horse is even walked into position. If you get shut out, it’s your own fault.

No excuses, no well , this and that bull shit. The priority is not the welfare of the average betting public. The industry makes a thousand excuses and there are always the foolish sheeple that will abide and even stick up for it. They will call all of you “horse player” complainers. And act like you are the problem? How many businesses treat their most loyal customers that way? People that point out the big handle numbers, like that’s the only metric are a problem too. Odds don’t swing at the major tracks like that unless mucho coin is going in. So, who do you guys think they really give a shit about?

The answer is pretty ****ing clear when you see this crap happening. It isn’t the general public. They have to “show” that they have handle at all costs. To make the game look popular. And, more importantly, make $$$$$. If you are not betting thousands on these races. You are in a position of no leverage and laughed at as grumpy complainer , horse players. Simple collateral damage. You can bitch all you want , but until the tote is locked like I said it should be, these Jamokes can pour money in up TIL and it seems like past when it should be legal. Some even promise handle to get the best program. In gambling it’s not even fair or ethical. Oh yeah, and it only happens on the days they are catching it and reporting it. Give me a break! I fell off the pumpkin wagon yesterday!

[ZippyChippy423]

Past posting is a real thing. For anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. Even in the 1973 movie “ The Sting” it was mentioned so I’m sure the past posting cheat goes way back. The movie did not invent the term it just made it more known. Those guys years ago who worked for Autotote that hit a pick 6 we’re past posting all the time. Some of the batch wagering software in the last few decades i believe is involved in past posting.

[chiguy]

Does anyone really think if the guy at the podium at the NYSE DOESN'T press that button, trading actually WON'T open or close?

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

It's 2018 racing industry. Time to get your SHIT together...

ENOUGH


Everyone knows he has to press the button AND ring a bell.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Horse racing is siphoning millions and millions of dollars from casinos. Surely a few of the dollars should be used to upgrade things like the tote and the timing system IMO.

I think we can all agree that a tote upgrade is needed, but this might be something that the industry itself would have to own and figure out a way to fund. Sure, racing organizations that own tote companies, like Stronach with AmTote and Churchill with United could in theory fund with the subsidies they receive, but all of the companies would have to follow suit to see the benefit (same ITSP, ect). With it being fractured like it is and the margins they operate on, I don't see it happening unless something drastic is done. It is like anything else in the industry, would the investment provide incremental revenue justifying the expenditure OR stop handle degradation.

If they believed that an upgrade tote system would increase substantially increase handle, it likely would have been done already.

[cj]

If they believed that an upgrade tote system would increase substantially increase handle, it likely would have been done already.

It shouldn't matter if it increases handle. If the tote isn't secure, it needs to be upgraded. If it is relying on people to press a button, it should be upgraded. It is part of the business.

I'm sure plenty of businesses could be run cheaper and save money if they didn't care about securing our money and our information.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm sure plenty of businesses could be run cheaper and save money if they didn't care about securing our money and our information.The threat of lawsuits and federal law / fines are what motivates businesses to invest in securing money and information.

There isn't too much of that kind of threat looming over racing. If there were, you might see changes.

Meh...if they screw up, just refund the pool once in a blue moon...

[metro]

They really don't have the ability to track every wager, not in any quick way at least and not without cooperation of lots of 3rd parties.



After news of a big Pick-6 being hit you often hear the PR dept. from the host track saying the ticket was either purchased on track or give the specific simulcast venue or ADW provider in which the ticket was originated. Sure that takes some digging but they can get to it. That is 3rd parties cooperating.

I don't think anyone is calling for every wager to be scrutinized, just the ones that create headlines, like these recent NYRA examples or ones like the Firenze Fire price drop during the Dwyer Statkes back in July. IF they wanted to NYRA could make public every wager that was pass posted on the "Cross Country" Pick 4, or the ones that helped create that big, late, price drop on FF.

Sure, it takes some work to get to the pertinent data but it's not near the cumbersome process you seem to entail, especially considering you are looking only at a specific time frame, usually only no more than the last couple of minutes of the wagering process. Again, NYRA, or any wagering venue, could be far more transparent, but they won't. There is simply nothing good that will come out of it from their standpoint.

[Gorrex]

Compared to what it should be.. that really is a cumbersome process.

Why should the track have to call anyone to know what bet was made and when? (Every modern sports book can.. and most share data to some degree)

Why can't a track run algorithms on each wager BEFORE its accepted to compare wagering patterns on multiple sources and find trouble bettors or manipulation? (Every modern sports book can...)

Same simple reason.. it has financial value to them and it doesn't in a parimutuel environment.

[metro]

What is cumbersome about it?

I could call a person that works in the mutuel department at Keeneland and ask them how much their handle was from, as an example, Cantebury Park on Saturday. They could give me the amount almost immediately. With a slight delay they could tell me what they handled on the QE II race. With another slight delay they could tell me what they handled in the WPS pools on that race.

For the purpose of on track wagering they could tell me which tote machine handled the most money on the day, how much was handled on that machine within the last two minutes of wagering of a specific race, how much was accounted for by a specific bettor. See where I'm going?

Sure an upgrade to the system would make the process of tracking wagers more seamless, however the current system still does have that capability, regardless of how archaic the system may be. It can be done, every wagering dollar, regardless of the pool it is intended for, HAS to be accounted for, it IS every race track's, simulcast venue or ADW provider's livelihood.

[Dave Schwartz]

That is the STANDARD in the auto industry, the aerospace industry.....has been for years. It is not unrealistic. It is the way of life.

I once had to supply a corrective action on I was going to improve my part per million rate of 20.

The key to achieving it is to stop whining and making excuses and just do it.

The racing industry is a joke.


"Standard," perhaps. But never achievable.

Tom, I know you understand manufacturing. There is an expectation of less-than-perfection in every batch of components produced. And nobody can test every component before it is put into place.

Even if the expected failure rate is minuscule, and even if several components have to fail at the same time, occasionally the planets will line up to produce a failure.

In context... It doesn't matter how many safeguards are in place. Someone - even if it turns out to be the cousin of the brother-in-law of the best friend of the guy who designed the system - SOMEONE will say, "I've got an idea for how to outsmart the system," and get away with it until they are caught.

[Tom]

So your solution is to just allow this type of BS to happen?
How many times a day do the planets have to line up to account for all the timing failure we see?

Zero defects is not always possible, but the goal of having zero is mandatory. Racing is happy to just shrug off pretty much everything.

Racing is a joke.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

It shouldn't matter if it increases handle. If the tote isn't secure, it needs to be upgraded. If it is relying on people to press a button, it should be upgraded. It is part of the business.

I'm sure plenty of businesses could be run cheaper and save money if they didn't care about securing our money and our information.

Agree that it needs an upgrade, but also would imagine them looking to justify it.

[JohnGalt1]

I put in all bets before the first race I play. I will cancel 1-2 minutes before post time if my horse goes off below acceptable odds.


It is less stressful and simple than waiting to see if the 9-2 ML horse I want to bet will stay at 5-2 or higher.


The KISS system would work with the issue discussed.


Just lock the betting when the first horse enters the gate.


No need to change anything else. Since they won't anyway.


Simple.

[AlsoEligible]

It’s just the same old crap in every one of these complaint threads. When the guy says it’s post time. The tote should be locked. Before the first horse is even walked into position. If you get shut out, it’s your own fault.

I believe this is the correct answer. The reason that closing the pools currently requires manual intervention right now is because we're trying to sync it up with the gate opening. Moving it to when the first horse enters would be the same issue. Both of those are arbitrary conditions which are impossible to automate within the current systems. So we need someone watching with their hand hovering over a button, and slapping it when that arbitrary condition is met.

However, all of the totes can automatically lock at 0 MTP with no upgrades or new development needed. This is already implemented in every system as an emergency fail-safe...if the system detects that the stewards button is not connected to the system and the race is at 0 MTP, the pools automatically lock.

So just make that the standard. Countdown hits 0, pools close, totally automated. Tracks don't want to do it because they're afraid it'll hurt handle. I guess they think bettors are truly so stupid that they won't adjust...but I'm pretty sure they would.

It also has the added benefit of eliminating odds changing during the race. Between the timer hitting 0 and the race actually starting, the system will have ample time to calculate all of the last-second money and display final odds before the gate opens.

Locking at 0 makes all the sense in the world, and kills multiple birds with the same stone. So it's unlikely to ever happen.

Tracks cannot see the actual wagers being made into their pools unless they request that information and most times its not searchable (lucky if its not just a printed PDF file).

There WAS a system being designed to do that, but it was expensive and relied on parties with no benefit from it to pay for it.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the TRPB's transaction audit files, but if so that system was completed. All totes are sending a file to the TRPB at the close of every race, and those files contain the individual wagers from every source.

I don't know if the individual tracks have access to that system to query information. But the data is definitely available in a centralized database....it just needs to be properly utilized.

[Dave Schwartz]

So your solution is to just allow this type of BS to happen?
How many times a day do the planets have to line up to account for all the timing failure we see?

Zero defects is not always possible, but the goal of having zero is mandatory. Racing is happy to just shrug off pretty much everything.

Racing is a joke.

Of course, you are right. The integrity of the game is in doubt and the people in power are actually questioning the importance of that relative to cost.

Racing has illustrated their lack of concern at every integrity crisis that has arisen. For the good old boy thieves it is business as usual. Until that changes, racing can never be a major league sport.

... which of course means that racing will never be anything but expensive bush league.

If a guy cheats, he should be done for life from coast-to-coast.

They laugh at all of us bettors because we're the suckers that keep playing.

As for zero defects...
I'm simply being realistic about our chances of them improving anything.

Remember, as we (old school horse players) continue to age, the crowd and wagering will thin out. Once our generation has passed, the game will die completely.

God willing, I'll be around to see them turn out the lights.

[Gorrex]

The audit files are a start yes and I agree they can be utilized in numerous ways that they currently are not and the access to it is weak at best.

I was referring to the wager protocol or whatever it was called that has been batted around for countless years. If something like that was implemented well and all relevant sources had proper access it would be a game changer for all of these types of issues.

Though you do bring up another valid point... I doubt many people here know anything about the TRPB audit files, chrims audit files and other integrity initiatives that have been done. Doesn't help much with pereception to have something that no patron knows exists.

While racing still has many issues this is again a case of it not being nearly as bad as the perception of it.

[Suff]

Excellent point. Meet Fuss...:ThmbUp:

I actually butchered the facts as BH laid them out.

NO late wagers on the 10/7 pool. Except the twinspires bettor who did bet but canceled

Some late wagers on the Oct 13 pool, but none of the late bets were winners.



For the Oct. 13 pool, NYRA said it would refund all wagers. No such refunds have been made on the Oct. 7 pool, where NYRA officials said they found no evidence of wagers coming in after the start of the wager. In the Oct. 13 pool, NYRA said some wagers were made after the start of the first race, but they were not winning wagers




Spokesmen for the New York Racing Association and the New York State Gaming Commission both said in the days after the Oct. 7 wager that there was no evidence of past posting—wagers made after the start of a race or, in this case, the start of the first race in the sequence. On Oct. 14 NYRA director of communications Pat McKenna said no money came into the Oct. 7 pool late.

[turfnsport]

I actually butchered the facts as BH laid them out.

NO late wagers on the 10/7 pool. Except the twinspires bettor who did bet but canceled

Some late wagers on the Oct 13 pool, but none of the late bets were winners.

Whenever an issue like this comes up they always tell us "no late bets were winners."

I wonder.

[AltonKelsey]

O
God willing, I'll be around to see them turn out the lights.




I'd prefer they turn out the lights the day after I go.