What IF

[v j stauffer]

All thoroughbred racing was discontinued? And replaced by Arabian racing? What's the ONE thing you hate the most about our game? For me, by a landslide, it's when horses break down. In my 40 years on the track I've never seen an Arab pull up badly.

Once the transition was made almost all things would be very similar.

Breed the best to the best and hope for the best.

Horses would stay sounder longer and therefore stay in training for the fans to enjoy.

The owner would still invest big money if they had purses good enough to run at.

The best trainers would still command the biggest barns.

The best jockeys would still win the most races.

There would still be the Arabian versions of Zenyatta, Justify, Winx, et al

The competition would be just as dramatic. A thrilling nose bobbing whacker to the wire would get the blood pumping just the same.

The people would pump money through the windows just as before.

Only difference is the horses would be running much slower.

Being the best of the best can still be exalted whether they finish in 107 flat or 114.

That's it. I think we could replicate everything else.

What IF?

[thaskalos]

I, personally, can't visually distinguish a Secretariat from a $5,000 claimer... nor can I tell if a race finished in 1:14 instead of 1:08. If it would spare me the horror of watching these magnificent animals breaking down...I wouldn't care if I were betting on a field of mules. Assuming, of course, that I could still access the requisite speed and pace figures.

[bobphilo]

All thoroughbred racing was discontinued? And replaced by Arabian racing? What's the ONE thing you hate the most about our game? For me, by a landslide, it's when horses break down. In my 40 years on the track I've never seen an Arab pull up badly.

Once the transition was made almost all things would be very similar.

Breed the best to the best and hope for the best.

Horses would stay sounder longer and therefore stay in training for the fans to enjoy.

The owner would still invest big money if they had purses good enough to run at.

The best trainers would still command the biggest barns.

The best jockeys would still win the most races.

There would still be the Arabian versions of Zenyatta, Justify, Winx, et al

The competition would be just as dramatic. A thrilling nose bobbing whacker to the wire would get the blood pumping just the same.

The people would pump money through the windows just as before.

Only difference is the horses would be running much slower.

Being the best of the best can still be exalted whether they finish in 107 flat or 114.

That's it. I think we could replicate everything else.

What IF?

I agree that all the things you are saying is true. The problem would be that eventually, the same forces that cause the current problems with racing, the profit motive above all other considerations, would reemerge. Massive breeding to unsound stock, as long as they were fast long enough in their brief careers to win big purses and later earn even bigger bucks at stud and we would be back to where we started. The modern T-Bred is actually the evolution of the breed from its Arabian ancestor through selective breeding for speed alone. The modern T-Bred is a locomotive running on toothpicks. A freak of nature that would never have evolved or survived had it not been for selective breeding through artificial selection for speed alone by man. I was there to see Ruffian on the day of her last win in the CCA Oaks and the sad day of her fatal breakdown during her match race with Foolish Pleasure and noted how massive and powerful her body was compared to how skinny her lower legs were.

From a practical point of view, such a change would cause billions of dollars of Thoroughbred stock to be instantly worthless and the powers that be would never allow that to occur.

The only practical solution that could work would be that the industry, for it's own long term survival, would be to put strict soundness criteria upon all breeding stock. I believe the German Jockey Club requires that all horses must have raced for something like 2 or 3 years, drug free, to stand at stud. For this reason German-bred horses have a reputation for soundness and staying power. The problem is that the American, as well as other Jockey Clubs, to adopt similar measures for their survival at the expense of the huge amounts of money they are currently making. It would be like a reverse engineering of the modern thoroughbred back to its sounder Arabian ancestor.

Sadly, I fear the the long term survival of the sport and industry will run a distant 2nd to the lure of the big fast buck.

[bobphilo]

I, personally, can't visually distinguish a Secretariat from a $5,000 claimer... nor can I tell if a race finished in 1:14 instead of 1:08. If it would spare me the horror of watching these magnificent animals breaking down...I wouldn't care if I were betting on a field of mules. Assuming, of course, that I could still access the requisite speed and pace figures.

Some racks actually do have mule racing with pari-mutual betting. These big eared characters are surprisingly fast and lots of fun to watch.

[Dave Schwartz]

All thoroughbred racing was discontinued? And replaced by Arabian racing?

Vic,

IMHO, the game would die so fast that nobody would notice it. Worse, nobody would miss it.

Where we are today is that the game is dying not JUST because of dwindling stock, but it is a big part. Truthfully, the shortage of horses can be traced back to the changes in the 1986 (I think) tax laws when owning a tbred could be depreciated like a truck.

Your theory is based (I believe) on the idea that if we replace TBreds with Arabs people will still bet.

Since the primary problem is (as being discussed in a concurrent thread) the loss of old customers without replacements of new ones, I can only assume that changing the caliber of the livestock would make the death come more quickly.

I'd say that a Romanesque spectacle with lions vs. Republicans would probably have a better chance at drawing young people.

Dave

[Jeff P]

Of the two thoroughbreds are significantly faster than Arabians.

Vic is right though - Arabians are more durable than thoroughbreds.

Like Thask, if the industry did make the switch from thoroughbreds to Arabians, provided players had access to a similar level of data we currently have for thoroughbreds --

I'd be perfectly ok betting Arabians instead of thoroughbreds.

But if that happened --

What's the under (in months) before ringers start showing up in races? One month? (Two?)

By ringer I mean horses with papers that say they're Arabians - but DNA that says they're part thoroughbred.

Given that thoroughbreds are significantly faster than Arabians --

How long would it be before a track announcer somewhere makes an announcement like the following?

Track Announcer: Ladies and gentlemen may I have your attention please?

The conditions for tonight's eighth race state the race is for Arabians only.

But DNA test results for number three Quark's Little Dancer say she is 28% thoroughbred.

After much deliberation (and after consulting with the trainer) the stewards have decided that number three Quark's Little Dancer will now run for purse money only...


-jp

.

[bobphilo]

What's the under (in months) before ringers start showing up in races? One month? (Two?)

By ringer I mean horses with papers that say they're Arabians - but DNA that says they're part thoroughbred.


.

There already is pari-mutual racing for Arabians and the fact that all the horses have to be registered pure bred Arabs precludes the danger of part T-Bred ringers.

[Buckeye]

Vic,

IMHO, the game would die so fast that nobody would notice it. Worse, nobody would miss it.

Where we are today is that the game is dying not JUST because of dwindling stock, but it is a big part. Truthfully, the shortage of horses can be traced back to the changes in the 1986 (I think) tax laws when owning a tbred could be depreciated like a truck.

Your theory is based (I believe) on the idea that if we replace TBreds with Arabs people will still bet.

Since the primary problem is (as being discussed in a concurrent thread) the loss of old customers without replacements of new ones, I can only assume that changing the caliber of the livestock would make the death come more quickly.

I'd say that a Romanesque spectacle with lions vs. Republicans would probably have a better chance at drawing young people.

Dave

Are we talking horses or Politics here?

I'm confused.

[Buckeye]

Here's an idea, explain to the younger generation that horses are victims and don't really want to run.

Better yet, replace them.

Not the horses.

[Augenj]

Thanks for thinking outside the box, Vic. We need more of this.

However, after a few decades of breeding the fastest to the fastest, wouldn't Arabians evolve into the fragile animals that thoroughbreds have become? Not that I'll be around. :)

[bobphilo]

Thanks for thinking outside the box, Vic. We need more of this.

However, after a few decades of breeding the fastest to the fastest, wouldn't Arabians evolve into the fragile animals that thoroughbreds have become? Not that I'll be around. :)

As I said in my post, yes they would. I refer you back to my reply where that is what I said would happen.

They wouldn't if not for human intervention and selective breeding. Speed is not the only attribute for equine survival. Soundness is also very important. As I pointed out in my post, if left to natural election horses would have never evolved to be so fragile as the modern T-bred. People have developed the breed through selective breeding and artificial selection in breeding only for speed. The only strain of horses in existence now that is purely the result of natural selection is a sturdy pony-sized horse living in Asia similar to the zebra in size and structure.

[theiman]

How many Arabians are racing in the USA?

As far as I know there are no full card Arabian races carded at any track. Delaware has had a few in the past and Los Al used to have them, plus the CA Fairs. I think the last race on either Big Cap day or SA Derby Day at SA has a stakes race.

No supply, no racing fans or betting.

Here is the race schedule for 2018 for Arabian racing in the USA

https://34z5as1d9gu01m1geu13gzkc-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/racemeetcalendar.pdf

[ReplayRandall]

When Greyhound racing is all but extinct, what chance would all Arabian racing have?.....The appetite for any kind of racing, even motor sports, is in steady decline.

[Spalding No!]

All thoroughbred racing was discontinued? And replaced by Arabian racing? What's the ONE thing you hate the most about our game? For me, by a landslide, it's when horses break down. In my 40 years on the track I've never seen an Arab pull up badly.

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=SA&raceDate=11/01/2013&cy=USA&rn=11

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=SAC&raceDate=07/24/2015&cy=USA&rn=2

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=OTP&raceDate=07/05/2014&cy=USA&rn=3

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=CD&raceDate=06/14/2014&cy=USA&rn=10

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=DEL&raceDate=08/27/2012&cy=USA&rn=9

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=DEL&raceDate=10/26/2009&cy=USA&rn=11

[bobphilo]

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=SA&raceDate=11/01/2013&cy=USA&rn=11

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=SAC&raceDate=07/24/2015&cy=USA&rn=2

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=OTP&raceDate=07/05/2014&cy=USA&rn=3

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=CD&raceDate=06/14/2014&cy=USA&rn=10

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=DEL&raceDate=08/27/2012&cy=USA&rn=9

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=DEL&raceDate=10/26/2009&cy=USA&rn=11

While these are examples of Arabians sustaining racing injury, I don't know if that means that the incidence of injury is just as high in Arabs or these are just exceptions. I don't think v.j. was saying that Arabians are completely immune to injury. Only that he had never seen such an incident implying that this is likely less common in Arabian racing. I think v.j. can confirm this or not.

Plus I believe there was interbreeding of more fragile T-breds at one point in the racing Arabian population.

In addition, racing Arabians are also being bred for speed alone making them also susceptible to fragility.

[castaway01]

How many Arabians are racing in the USA?

As far as I know there are no full card Arabian races carded at any track. Delaware has had a few in the past and Los Al used to have them, plus the CA Fairs. I think the last race on either Big Cap day or SA Derby Day at SA has a stakes race.

No supply, no racing fans or betting.

Here is the race schedule for 2018 for Arabian racing in the USA

https://34z5as1d9gu01m1geu13gzkc-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/racemeetcalendar.pdf

Delaware averages about 1 Arabian race a day on a 9-race card. Sometimes they miss a day, occasionally they run two. They're always at the end of the card. If any other tracks run as many as Delaware, I haven't heard of it.

While horses breaking down is awful, Arabian horses do break down, and having slower but slightly more durable horses run all races would not "save" racing. As Dave pointed out, changing the tax laws so it's lucrative to breed horses would be the one thing that might give us full fields again.

[dilanesp]

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=SA&raceDate=11/01/2013&cy=USA&rn=11

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=SAC&raceDate=07/24/2015&cy=USA&rn=2

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=OTP&raceDate=07/05/2014&cy=USA&rn=3

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=CD&raceDate=06/14/2014&cy=USA&rn=10

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=DEL&raceDate=08/27/2012&cy=USA&rn=9

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=DEL&raceDate=10/26/2009&cy=USA&rn=11

Make any historical claim at all here and within 24 hours, Spalding will be here to refute it. :)

[ZippyChippy423]

I would have to agree with horses breaking down. Never liked Arabian racing because it’s like there is no pace or strategy ....simply come out the gate and run as far as you can in semi slow motion. Similar to pacers and trotters but more defined. I have never seen any exciting stretch runs and I’ve watched any of them at Delaware Park.

[v j stauffer]

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=SA&raceDate=11/01/2013&cy=USA&rn=11

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=SAC&raceDate=07/24/2015&cy=USA&rn=2

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=OTP&raceDate=07/05/2014&cy=USA&rn=3

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=CD&raceDate=06/14/2014&cy=USA&rn=10

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=DEL&raceDate=08/27/2012&cy=USA&rn=9

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=DEL&raceDate=10/26/2009&cy=USA&rn=11

As I said, "I've" never witnessed a Arabian horse pull up or break down due to unsoundness.

[Dave Schwartz]

My daughter used to have an Arab. They really are nice horses... but so small.

Truthfully, I don't miss owning horses. Between training, vet and farrier bills... and all that stall mucking. LOL

But I do kind of miss seeing the babies running loose in the back yard.

Could never own a racehorse, though. I get too connected to them as "people." LOL

[Spalding No!]

As I said, "I've" never witnessed a Arabian horse pull up or break down due to unsoundness.

You didn't watch the 2013 Breeder's Cup World Championship series or tune in to Churchill's "Downs After Dark" Stephen Foster card in 2014?

Well if you didn't, plenty of other people did. Those runnings of the President of the United Arab Emirates were televised nationally...

[v j stauffer]

You didn't watch the 2013 Breeder's Cup World Championship series or tune in to Churchill's "Downs After Dark" Stephen Foster card in 2014?

Well if you didn't, plenty of other people did. Those runnings of the President of the United Arab Emirates were televised nationally...

Spalding, If I'd watched it I would have said I HAVE seen an Arab either pull up or break down because of injury.

I'm not contesting your findings. I'm telling you my experiences.

[Spalding No!]

Spalding, If I'd watched it I would have said I HAVE seen an Arab either pull up or break down because of injury.

I'm not contesting your findings. I'm telling you my experiences.

Fair enough, but understand when you preface your post with your "40 years on the track" ostensibly you are implying you are--if not an expert--at least a casual observer of Arabian racing.

[Nitro]

Since we’re so deeply engaged in the age of robotics within so many sectors of our society, why not take this all a step further. Lets promote the concept of replacing all of the flesh-and-blood race horses (which some seem to think of as pets) with running robotic horses. You know: machines.
It would eliminate so many aspects and personnel in the game and make them all obsolete.

Yes there would of course be the Owners, but instead of trainers you would have both mechanical and electrical technicians tuning and maintaining these machines.

Instead of Breeders you would have manufacturing companies with designers, engineers and machinists producing them to the uniform specs of racing jurisdictions. Imagine exotically motorized light-weight sleek carbon fiber frames and bodies with enhanced sound effects.

Instead of Jockeys the Owners or their selected representatives could be sitting in the clubhouse with joysticks, cameras and video remote controlling the operation of their racing machines during every aspect of the race.

Even the start of every race could be more accurately controlled electrically and the actual race monitored more precisely.

Just imagine: No feed, no stalls, no drugs, no Vets, and perhaps even the introduction of harder racing surfaces to enhance the speed of these machines.

Corporate sponsors could get involved just as they do with NASCAR and other forms of racing.

And of course, from the player’s perspective they would have the ability to literally develop extremely accurate statistical performance racing data.

Just let your imagination run wild if you’re really willing to consider the replacement of the thoroughbred and its long and traditional part of our worldwide racing history.

[v j stauffer]

Fair enough, but understand when you preface your post with your "40 years on the track" ostensibly you are implying you are--if not an expert--at least a casual observer of Arabian racing.

I'm much more than a casual observer. As the voice of the Cal. Fairs for 20 years I called hundreds of Arabian races. To this day I'm still a fan of Arabian racing. Let's say I saw ONE pull up bad. It wouldn't change the premise of my initial post.

[ReplayRandall]

Instead of Jockeys the Owners or their selected representatives could be sitting in the clubhouse with joysticks, cameras and video remote controlling the operation of their racing machines during every aspect of the race.

Even the start of every race could be more accurately controlled electrically and the actual race monitored more precisely.

Just let your imagination run wild if you’re really willing to consider the replacement of the thoroughbred and its long and traditional part of our worldwide racing history.

Some of our fellow posters had your idea long ago....

The late Perry Tunks AKA Robert Goren, had as his signature, the following:

"Some day in the not too distant future, horse players will be betting on computer generated races over the net. Race tracks will become casinos and shopping centers. And some crooner will be belting out "there used to be a race track here"."

[PaceAdvantage]

As I said, "I've" never witnessed a Arabian horse pull up or break down due to unsoundness.And you've witnessed far, far, FAR fewer Arabian races then you have T-bred races...agree?

[bobphilo]

And you've witnessed far, far, FAR fewer Arabian races then you have T-bred races...agree?

Even so, I bet if he had witnessed the same number of Thoroughbred as Arabian races, he would have witnessed more breakdowns and/or injuries among the Thoroughbreds. I'm sure he would say he's seen a higher % of this in T-bred races.
T-breds are much more fragile than Arabs.

[bobphilo]

Since we’re so deeply engaged in the age of robotics within so many sectors of our society, why not take this all a step further. Lets promote the concept of replacing all of the flesh-and-blood race horses (which some seem to think of as pets) with running robotic horses. You know: machines.
It would eliminate so many aspects and personnel in the game and make them all obsolete.

Yes there would of course be the Owners, but instead of trainers you would have both mechanical and electrical technicians tuning and maintaining these machines.

Instead of Breeders you would have manufacturing companies with designers, engineers and machinists producing them to the uniform specs of racing jurisdictions. Imagine exotically motorized light-weight sleek carbon fiber frames and bodies with enhanced sound effects.




Instead of Jockeys the Owners or their selected representatives could be sitting in the clubhouse with joysticks, cameras and video remote controlling the operation of their racing machines during every aspect of the race.

Even the start of every race could be more accurately controlled electrically and the actual race monitored more precisely.

Just imagine: No feed, no stalls, no drugs, no Vets, and perhaps even the introduction of harder racing surfaces to enhance the speed of these machines.

Corporate sponsors could get involved just as they do with NASCAR and other forms of racing.

And of course, from the player’s perspective they would have the ability to literally develop extremely accurate statistical performance racing data.

Just let your imagination run wild if you’re really willing to consider the replacement of the thoroughbred and its long and traditional part of our worldwide racing history.

Reminds me of the episode of the "Twilight Zone" where Lee Marvin played Battling Maxo. A human who fights a robot who have replaced humans in boxing. I think there was a movie called "Blue Steel" with a similar theme.
On the Jetsons in the future robots have replaced humans in football.

Edit - Battling Maxo was the robot who Lee Marvin, his manager, impersonated when he broke down in order to still get the purse.

[biggestal99]

All thoroughbred racing was discontinued? And replaced by Arabian racing? What's the ONE thing you hate the most about our game? For me, by a landslide, it's when horses break down. In my 40 years on the track I've never seen an Arab pull up badly.

Once the transition was made almost all things would be very similar.

Breed the best to the best and hope for the best.

Horses would stay sounder longer and therefore stay in training for the fans to enjoy.

The owner would still invest big money if they had purses good enough to run at.

The best trainers would still command the biggest barns.

The best jockeys would still win the most races.

There would still be the Arabian versions of Zenyatta, Justify, Winx, et al

The competition would be just as dramatic. A thrilling nose bobbing whacker to the wire would get the blood pumping just the same.

The people would pump money through the windows just as before.

Only difference is the horses would be running much slower.

Being the best of the best can still be exalted whether they finish in 107 flat or 114.

That's it. I think we could replicate everything else.

What IF?

Might as well have sloth racing.

I want fast horses, not my little pony.

I love the thoughbred. It’s breeding to bad stallions that creates breakdown.

Breed every mare to monson and Nathaniel you eliminate the problem.

You need speed and durability.

Allan

[HHE10]

I know this one isn’t thoroughbred related but at my local racetrack (grand river raceway) they have this day where they have wiener dog races and that day probably gets more people out to the track than a normal race day. It’s pretty sad to see that people like to watch a 5 second sprint of wiener dogs and not to horse racing. They parking lots and full like very full. Like when I went over it was so packed I had to park across the street. And once the race is over everyone screams to get out of there. So sad to see :pout:

[Mulerider]

Some racks actually do have mule racing with pari-mutual betting. These big eared characters are surprisingly fast and lots of fun to watch.

You haven't lived until you've been on a big mule, in thick woods, that gets spooked by the sudden appearance of a herd of wild hogs.

[Hambletonian]

I have also never witnessed an Arabian break down. I remember hearing about a fatal incident at I believe Delaware Park and the story bing how devastated the community was since that was such a rare occurrence. Never seen a mule injured either for that matter.

I imagine more than anything it has to do with the simple fact that Arabians are more of a boutique industry. There is less incentive to rush them to the races, or medicate them to the gills and race them in less than optimal physical condition. And a full blooded Arabian has value off the track, probably more so than as a racehorse for the vast majority of them. Not too many thoroughbreds are worth more off the track than on.

[bobphilo]

I have also never witnessed an Arabian break down. I remember hearing about a fatal incident at I believe Delaware Park and the story bing how devastated the community was since that was such a rare occurrence. Never seen a mule injured either for that matter.

I imagine more than anything it has to do with the simple fact that Arabians are more of a boutique industry. There is less incentive to rush them to the races, or medicate them to the gills and race them in less than optimal physical condition. And a full blooded Arabian has value off the track, probably more so than as a racehorse for the vast majority of them. Not too many thoroughbreds are worth more off the track than on.

Yes, medication, steroids and performance enhancing drugs are a big part of the problem. It's also a question of anatomy. If you get to see and compare the legs of race horses with pleasure horses or police horses close up you will see what I mean by a big locomotive running on toothpicks at high speeds. Breakdowns are going to be inevitable, unless we do what the German Jockey Club does and not let a horse stand at stud that has not raced soundly without drugs for 2 or 3 seasons. Never happen here, though. Too much money to be made from breeding fast unsound horses.

[bello]

Irresponsible breeding has caused this problem and continues to make the thorobred more fragile.

The second item that make harness racing better is the durability of the standardbred. At yesterday Little Brown Jug races leading trainer Bob Mcintosh was interviewed and discussed how his wife turned his champion trotter into a show horse.

Harness horses can race 35-50 times a year and generally keep their form.

How many t'breds can race even 15 times a year. Very few and it is getting worse.
As an earlier poster said, horses that break down early and are bred continue to proliferate and worsen the problem.

[bello]

Weiner dogs are not mercilessly whipped down the lane. In this day and age people are sensitive to seeing animals whipped lie they are. The industry can also institute the round about whipping style they have overseas.

[bobphilo]

I have also never witnessed an Arabian break down. I remember hearing about a fatal incident at I believe Delaware Park and the story bing how devastated the community was since that was such a rare occurrence. Never seen a mule injured either for that matter.

I imagine more than anything it has to do with the simple fact that Arabians are more of a boutique industry. There is less incentive to rush them to the races, or medicate them to the gills and race them in less than optimal physical condition. And a full blooded Arabian has value off the track, probably more so than as a racehorse for the vast majority of them. Not too many thoroughbreds are worth more off the track than on.

Another thing about Arabian racing. Arabian horses are not allowed to begin racing until they are at least 3YOs and at least close to maturity.

[Mr.XXX]

Dang, VJS!
Seems like you need a leather hide, underneath a flak jacket, while deep inside a bunker and under the effects of an elephant tranquilizer... when posting.
Even "friendly fire" seems excessive. :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Even so, I bet if he had witnessed the same number of Thoroughbred as Arabian races, he would have witnessed more breakdowns and/or injuries among the Thoroughbreds. I'm sure he would say he's seen a higher % of this in T-bred races.
T-breds are much more fragile than Arabs.I never said they weren't. All I'm saying is, lack of observable events WILL skew the thought process on this.

[jimmyb]

Standardbreds are a sturdier breed, many race once a week and are on the track jogging or training daily, yet their numbers are dwindling as well.

[ReplayRandall]

Standardbreds are a sturdier breed, many race once a week and are on the track jogging or training daily, yet their numbers are dwindling as well.

Imagine that....Both Standardbreds and Arabians are sturdy breeds, yet the hybrid result of the two, the Thoroughbred, is not....Go figure.

[Mulerider]

Imagine that....Both Standardbreds and Arabians are sturdy breeds, yet the hybrid result of the two, the Thoroughbred, is not....Go figure.

Arabs routinely win international endurance races. However, the longest U.S. endurance race (https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-1976-great-american-horse-race-was-won-by-a-mule-named-lord-fauntleroy)(roughly 3,000 miles in 1976) was won by a mule, sired by a Thoroughbred. An Arabian was second.

[elhelmete]

I've never seen an octopus break down.

[Robert Fischer]

I've never seen an octopus break down.

The ink would make it tough for the stewards to maintain their standards of excellence.

[v j stauffer]

Dang, VJS!
Seems like you need a leather hide, underneath a flak jacket, while deep inside a bunker and under the effects of an elephant tranquilizer... when posting.
Even "friendly fire" seems excessive. :lol:

Nothing new X

[Buckeye]

When Greyhound racing is all but extinct, what chance would all Arabian racing have?.....The appetite for any kind of racing, even motor sports, is in steady decline.

That's right, everyone's a winner!

Competition is bad for you, SUBMIT to us and we'll take care of you.

Wait a minute, who wins then?

[Clydepuckett]

Sam Houston runs Arabians, maybe not daily, but frequently. They are the first races of the day, usually not more than two races.

Main thing I've noticed is they are merry go round races. Very little passing and certainly not in the lane.

Beautiful in the paddock

[v j stauffer]

Sam Houston runs Arabians, maybe not daily, but frequently. They are the first races of the day, usually not more than two races.

Main thing I've noticed is they are merry go round races. Very little passing and certainly not in the lane.

Beautiful in the paddock

I've seen that too. I think it would change and become much more interesting if there were more horses.

[v j stauffer]

And you've witnessed far, far, FAR fewer Arabian races then you have T-bred races...agree?

Completely needless post. :confused:

[bobphilo]

Irresponsible breeding has caused this problem and continues to make the thorobred more fragile.

The second item that make harness racing better is the durability of the standardbred. At yesterday Little Brown Jug races leading trainer Bob Mcintosh was interviewed and discussed how his wife turned his champion trotter into a show horse.

Harness horses can race 35-50 times a year and generally keep their form.

How many t'breds can race even 15 times a year. Very few and it is getting worse.
As an earlier poster said, horses that break down early and are bred continue to proliferate and worsen the problem.

In the old days Standardbreds would pull the family wagon during the week and race on the weekend. They would be driven to the county fair where they would race, Even now in races like the Hambletonian they will race in back to back heats. They were bred for soundness and in addition the trotting and pacing gates their hooves don't hit the ground as hard as T-Breds running which is why Stanandardbred tracks are not as deep as T-Bred tracks.

[dilanesp]

In the old days Standardbreds would pull the family wagon during the week and race on the weekend. They would be driven to the county fair where they would race, Even now in races like the Hambletonian they will race in back to back heats. They were bred for soundness and in addition the trotting and pacing gates their hooves don't hit the ground as hard as T-Breds running which is why Stanandardbred tracks are not as deep as T-Bred tracks.

30 years ago I went to a harness track in British Columbia which was basically crushed rock and sawdust. I was amazed that horses could run on it, but you are right, they don't hit the ground hard.

[clicknow]

What's the ONE thing you hate the most about our game?

easy for me: race day meds & meds for conditions that horses have not been diagnosed with, which then are just PEDs.

Given this mentality, I doubt that would change much if only Arabians raced. :(

[Inner Dirt]

Some racks actually do have mule racing with pari-mutual betting. These big eared characters are surprisingly fast and lots of fun to watch.


The summer California Fair circuit used to card an Appaloosa and a Mule race on each race day back when I lived there and used to attend them, don't know if they still do. That circuit is retracting, a lot of the fair stops don't have racing anymore.

[Inner Dirt]

I know this one isn’t thoroughbred related but at my local racetrack (grand river raceway) they have this day where they have wiener dog races and that day probably gets more people out to the track than a normal race day. It’s pretty sad to see that people like to watch a 5 second sprint of wiener dogs and not to horse racing. They parking lots and full like very full. Like when I went over it was so packed I had to park across the street. And once the race is over everyone screams to get out of there. So sad to see :pout:


It wasn't a very large venue, probably held a 1,000 people but the pig races at the Virginia State Fair were packed solid, full bleachers and a lot of people standing.

[CheckMark]

While we are on the "What if" subject here is a good one about racing in a virtual way. Thought this was a good idea along with Arabian racing.

https://standardbredcanada.ca/trot/september-2018/search-ultimate-customer-experience.html

[castaway01]

That's right, everyone's a winner!

Competition is bad for you, SUBMIT to us and we'll take care of you.

Wait a minute, who wins then?


Since there are competitions televised in virtually every field on 500 channels and all over the Internet these days---singing, dancing, living in the wild, cooking, video games, dog shows, and 100 major and minor sports---the idea people are avoiding competition or things involving it is...I mean you couldn't be much more wrong.

[Buckeye]

Since there are competitions televised in virtually every field on 500 channels and all over the Internet these days---singing, dancing, living in the wild, cooking, video games, dog shows, and 100 major and minor sports---the idea people are avoiding competition or things involving it is...I mean you couldn't be much more wrong.

Good news.

"People" are hard wired to compete.

Thanks for agreeing with my point.

[PaceAdvantage]

Completely needless post. :confused:How so?

You made the statement that you've never seen an Arabian horse break down, correct? Or something to that effect...

I simply pointed out that there are infinitely more t-bred races in the USA vs. Arabian (and outside of Delaware Park, where else do they run Arabians on a daily basis?)

Maybe if we ran the same number of Arabian races in the USA as we run t-breds, we're see more breakdowns? Horses running more often...more races...more horses...more meds...etc...etc...

All I'm doing is pointing out the statistics of the situation. Not claiming your theory is wrong. I'm sure you're 100% correct that Arabians are sturdier than t-breds....there are probably a lot more reasons for this other than they don't run as fast.

[airford1]

In time we would find a way to to inbreed the weakness into that breed by looking for SPEED with all disregard for the horse breaking down.

[v j stauffer]

How so?

You made the statement that you've never seen an Arabian horse break down, correct? Or something to that effect...

I simply pointed out that there are infinitely more t-bred races in the USA vs. Arabian (and outside of Delaware Park, where else do they run Arabians on a daily basis?)

Maybe if we ran the same number of Arabian races in the USA as we run t-breds, we're see more breakdowns? Horses running more often...more races...more horses...more meds...etc...etc...

All I'm doing is pointing out the statistics of the situation. Not claiming your theory is wrong. I'm sure you're 100% correct that Arabians are sturdier than t-breds....there are probably a lot more reasons for this other than they don't run as fast.

I don't know what percentage of TB races I've seen which have had a breakdown.

I do know what percentage of Arabian races I've seen with a breakdown. ZERO

Based on that if I had seen MANY more Arabian races the divide would become greater.

[devilsbag]

Nothing will generate interest in the sport like an Arabian horse winning the formerly Thoroughbred Triple Crown.

Imagine this Emirates Airlines Belmont Cup: "The first three-quarters of a mile in one eighteen and three-fifths. He is moving like he's on a tremendous magic carpet."

[classhandicapper]

I, personally, can't visually distinguish a Secretariat from a $5,000 claimer... nor can I tell if a race finished in 1:14 instead of 1:08. If it would spare me the horror of watching these magnificent animals breaking down...I wouldn't care if I were betting on a field of mules. Assuming, of course, that I could still access the requisite speed and pace figures.

I bet on mule races all the time, with my own speed figures. :lol:

[pandy]

If Arabian horses rarely break down, it would be fine with me to bet and handicap them instead of thoroughbreds.

[v j stauffer]

If Arabian horses rarely break down, it would be fine with me to bet and handicap them instead of thoroughbreds.

That was the original premise. Me too!

[tholl]

Long term solution, get rid of Grade One sprints/mile races. Make the focus on longer races for four-year-old and up. Get rid of Lasix.

[bobphilo]

Nothing will generate interest in the sport like an Arabian horse winning the formerly Thoroughbred Triple Crown.

Imagine this Emirates Airlines Belmont Cup: "The first three-quarters of a mile in one eighteen and three-fifths. He is moving like he's on a tremendous magic carpet."

I give you credit for cleverness but if all that people really wanted was horses that "move like a tremendous machine", they'd all switch to auto racing.
Most people can tell or care about the difference in time if the race is competitive. Arabians are already fast, beautiful and competitive enough to generate fan interest. If we could design robots that ran faster than horses would that replace horse racing among its fans?

[bobphilo]

I give you credit for cleverness but if all that people really wanted was horses that "move like a tremendous machine", they'd all switch to auto racing.
Most people can tell or care about the difference in time if the race is competitive. Arabians are already fast, beautiful and competitive enough to generate fan interest. If we could design robots that ran faster than horses would that replace horse racing among its fans?

Note: I am not advocating replacing T-Bred racing with Arabians. A more practical solution is to breed for soundness in T-Breds even if it means the horses would be a little slower.

[PaceAdvantage]

Based on that if I had seen MANY more Arabian races the divide would become greater.Not likely, since the ratio of t-bred to Arabian races you've seen is probably something like a gazillion to one.

That's my simple point.

Anyhoo....YEAH Arabians are sturdier and break down far less frequently. So do pack mules. Why not just skip Arabians and move to mules.

[v j stauffer]

Not likely, since the ratio of t-bred to Arabian races you've seen is probably something like a gazillion to one.

That's my simple point.

Anyhoo....YEAH Arabians are sturdier and break down far less frequently. So do pack mules. Why not just skip Arabians and move to mules.

Ok. Sure. Sounds good. That's an idea. Not my idea. But an idea nonetheless.

[Dan Montilion]

I bet on mules all the time. Past performances suggest they are thoroughbreds, come the 1/4 pole they turn into mules.

[Clydepuckett]

Make the focus on longer races for four-year-old and up. Get rid of Lasix.

The QH world says you suck.......lol. Two year olds rule that world.

Saying that as a former QH devoted handicapper that switched to TB.

I was good,too. Had a tip sheet service.

And then they allowed embryo transfers......my God. Full same aged brothers and sisters competing. What a sham.

[Augenj]

Sorry about adding fuel to the fire but...

Four racing fatalities in one week at Churchill
https://www.drf.com/news/four-racing-fatalities-one-week-churchill

[bobphilo]

Sorry about adding fuel to the fire but...

Four racing fatalities in one week at Churchill
https://www.drf.com/news/four-racing-fatalities-one-week-churchill

And one attempt (safer synthetic surfaces) that was actually working and reducing racing fatalities was abandoned for 2 reasons.

1) The poorly laid down track at Santa Anita was flooding after heavy rains because the idiots that installed the drainage system didn't know what they were doing.
The other California tracks that installed the new surface properly did not have this problem and fatalities decreased.

2) A lot of the bettors cared less about the lives saved than having to adapt to the new surface. Instead of bitching they should have grasped the opportunity to profit from a different type of racing for those clever enough to adapt.

[PaceAdvantage]

2) A lot of the bettors cared less about the lives saved than having to adapt to the new surface. Instead of bitching they should have grasped the opportunity to profit from a different type of racing for those clever enough to adapt.Hmmmm...are you citing the only instance sine the beginning of time when bettors actually had some sort of impact on racing management decisions? That can not be...that never happens.

In any event, me thinks you exaggerate a bunch...still more than a few tracks out there running with fake dirt. How did those players adapt?

[cj]

And one attempt (safer synthetic surfaces) that was actually working and reducing racing fatalities was abandoned for 2 reasons.

1) The poorly laid down track at Santa Anita was flooding after heavy rains because the idiots that installed the drainage system didn't know what they were doing.
The other California tracks that installed the new surface properly did not have this problem and fatalities decreased.

2) A lot of the bettors cared less about the lives saved than having to adapt to the new surface. Instead of bitching they should have grasped the opportunity to profit from a different type of racing for those clever enough to adapt.

I'd bet anything breeders had a lot more to do with the return to dirt than anything bettors said or did.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

If Arabian horses rarely break down, it would be fine with me to bet and handicap them instead of thoroughbreds.

Until Arapahoe Park decided to discontinue allowing Arabians and paints to show their stuff, a little research made those races very hittable. Now I have to go to one of the CA Fairs, Delaware, or Texas. Arabians tend to be formful. They also seem to be uninterested in doing a lot of passing in the stretch. I know people who bet hundreds into an Arabian race and would rather bet Arabians than thoroughbreds.

[Redboard]

And one attempt (safer synthetic surfaces) that was actually working and reducing racing fatalities was abandoned for 2 reasons.

1) The poorly laid down track at Santa Anita was flooding after heavy rains because the idiots that installed the drainage system didn't know what they were doing.
The other California tracks that installed the new surface properly did not have this problem and fatalities decreased.

….

I agree. Keenland had a wonderful synthetic surface and the handle actually went down when they went back to dirt.

But the synthetic surface experiment was doomed from the start for one reason: Churchill Downs wanted no part in it. The Kentucky derby is still the race that everyone wants to win.

[Redboard]

Thoroughbreds used to rarely break down . Steve Haskin has written that he never saw a breakdown until Ruffian, but we can’t really categorially say that there are more breakdowns in the 21st century, then there were “back in the day,” because these things were just swept under the rug and records were not kept, because, I guess, bad publicity and fear of litigation. So we went from “once in a blue moon” to “part of the sport.” You don’t need to be an marketing genius to figure out that it’s the number one issue that’s preventing horse racing from getting back into the mainstream and becoming popular again.

After the breakdown of Eight Belles in 2008, they created the Jockey Club Equine Injury Database, to study the issue and try to come up with a solution. Unfortunately not all tracks decided to participate (including the track that the OP works for) but it has helped and through their suggestions, the industry is claiming that their suggestions have reduced the catastrophic breakdown rate by 23% since 2009.

[bobphilo]

I'd bet anything breeders had a lot more to do with the return to dirt than anything bettors said or did.

I have no doubt that breeders did have a significant role in getting the tracks to revert back to dirt and yes, tracks often ignore bettors vocal complaints but they are very concerned with handle or what they, correctly or not, think affects that handle. A lot of disgruntled bettors were taking their action elsewhere or were threatening to and the tracks knew or were afraid of that. I don't have the exact figures for declining handle but the tracks had to be concerned with that.

[elhelmete]

I have no doubt that breeders did have a significant role in getting the tracks to revert back to dirt and yes, tracks often ignore bettors vocal complaints but they are very concerned with handle or what they, correctly or not, think affects that handle. A lot of disgruntled bettors were taking their action elsewhere or were threatening to and the tracks knew or were afraid of that. I don't have the exact figures for declining handle but the tracks had to be concerned with that.

Agreed.

And one can't ignore the financial meltdown which was playing out at the same time tracks were installing synth.

And botched installs at Santa Anita and Del Mar, two high-profile tracks.

[bobphilo]

Hmmmm...are you citing the only instance sine the beginning of time when bettors actually had some sort of impact on racing management decisions? That can not be...that never happens.

In any event, me thinks you exaggerate a bunch...still more than a few tracks out there running with fake dirt. How did those players adapt?

Tracks may not listen to peoples vocal complaints but they are very sensitive to loss of handle and what they fear, rightly or wrongly, affects that. I have already discussed with cj in an earlier reply.

I am not exaggerating the significant reversal of tracks in their decision to switch surfaces. Initially many tracks concerned with high fatalities and/or days lost due to the weather switched over to the safer all-weather surface. The CHRB even mandated that all major California tracks make this change. Then, in a dramatic reversal, tracks not only stopped changing over, but many, including many Cal. tracks reverted back to dirt. that is no exageration,

I also must point out that your use of the pejorative term "fake dirt" when referring to these surfaces indicates a bias in this issue and weakens the objectivity of your argument.

[PaceAdvantage]

Tracks may not listen to peoples vocal complaints but they are very sensitive to loss of handle and what they fear, rightly or wrongly, affects that. I have already discussed with cj in an earlier reply.

I am not exaggerating the significant reversal of tracks in their decision to switch surfaces. Initially many tracks concerned with high fatalities and/or days lost due to the weather switched over to the safer all-weather surface. The CHRB even mandated that all major California tracks make this change. Then, in a dramatic reversal, tracks not only stopped changing over, but many, including many Cal. tracks reverted back to dirt. that is no exageration,

I also must point out that your use of the pejorative term "fake dirt" when referring to these surfaces indicates a bias in this issue and weakens the objectivity of your argument.I don't claim to be objective.

Just curious why there are any such tracks in existence today? There are quite a few...even some places one would consider A-list tracks, like Woodbine and Arlington.

So your reasoning seems, to me at least, to be a little less than objective as well.

[bobphilo]

I don't claim to be objective.

Just curious why there are any such tracks in existence today? There are quite a few...even some places one would consider A-list tracks, like Woodbine and Arlington.

So your reasoning seems, to me at least, to be a little less than objective as well.

I never said there are no tracks with synthetic surfaces left. What I did say that was that there was a dramatic reversal in the trend towards switching to the surface (none) vs returning to dirt. That's not subjective but objective fact.

[pandy]

Santa Anita's fiasco definitely hurt the synthetic track movement. They really screwed it up. Hollywood Park's synthetic track seemed safer than it's dirt track and the racing was good.

[PaceAdvantage]

I never said there are no tracks with synthetic surfaces left. What I did say that was that there was a dramatic reversal in the trend towards switching to the surface (none) vs returning to dirt. That's not subjective but objective fact.But you claim the biggest reason being "unfeeling" handicappers who would rather see horses DIE, then be forced to handicap for a new surface.

How come this hasn't happened at the places that still have synthetic surfaces? Different set of handicappers? Not bloody likely, given the pervasiveness of simulcasting the last number of decades.

So how come some tracks didn't get hit with this "cold-hearted handicapper backlash?"

[bobphilo]

But you claim the biggest reason being "unfeeling" handicappers who would rather see horses DIE, then be forced to handicap for a new surface.

How come this hasn't happened at the places that still have synthetic surfaces? Different set of handicappers? Not bloody likely, given the pervasiveness of simulcasting the last number of decades.

So how come some tracks didn't get hit with this "cold-hearted handicapper backlash?"

Tracks still get a piece of the handle even they're bet by simulcast so they are effected by bettors. In any case, people bet for several reasons . It's not like all tracks were hit by the anti synthetic backlash equally and that thy all reacted to it equally and completely. What matters is the general trend. Why do you make my statements about what many are doing into all are doing.

[PaceAdvantage]

I am only wondering how you come to place a substantial amount of blame on handicappers for tracks abandoning synth surfaces.

Your reasons aren't adding up for me. I would think this would be a universal thing (at least in the USA). Not just some tracks abandoning due to handle drops or just plain capper whine.

Any push back from horsemen at any of these synth abandoners?

I refuse to believe handicappers could ever force a change at any racetrack anywhere for whatever reason...:lol:

[bobphilo]

Santa Anita's fiasco definitely hurt the synthetic track movement. They really screwed it up. Hollywood Park's synthetic track seemed safer than it's dirt track and the racing was good.

Right, the numbers show the same effect at other tracks that installed the safer surface. The main problem where there was a problem was at Santa Anita where it was not installed properly. With their defective drainage system it wouldn't have mattered if the surface was dirt, synthetic or moon dust. That failure was just an excuse to go back to dirt.

[bobphilo]

I am only wondering how you come to place a substantial amount of blame on handicappers for tracks abandoning synth surfaces.

Your reasons aren't adding up for me. I would think this would be a universal thing (at least in the USA). Not just some tracks abandoning due to handle drops or just plain capper whine.

Any push back from horsemen at any of these synth abandoners?

I refuse to believe handicappers could ever force a change at any racetrack anywhere for whatever reason...:lol:

So you think tracks don't care about handle and what they think are affecting it?

You mean that you don't see a major trend unless every single track in the country switched back to dirt? That's an impossible standard.

[dilanesp]

Right, the numbers show the same effect at other tracks that installed the safer surface. The main problem where there was a problem was at Santa Anita where it was not installed properly. With their defective drainage system it wouldn't have mattered if the surface was dirt, synthetic or moon dust. That failure was just an excuse to go back to dirt.

I certainly feel that had Santa Anita been compelled to do so by the state, they could have figured out the drainage issues.

Remember the same ownership operates GGF. No problems there.

[bobphilo]

I certainly feel that had Santa Anita been compelled to do so by the state, they could have figured out the drainage issues.

Remember the same ownership operates GGF. No problems there.

Good point. Makes you wonder just how much their hearts were into this change to begin with. Their attempts to solve this problem and save the switch to synthetic merely by changing the composition of the surface, when it was obvious the problem was the drainage system, were useless and a sham.