Gill-Shuman

[Figman]

What is up with this tandem? The owner is blaming Barry Schwartz for his two latest NY drug positives (Gill owned horses incurred 4 post race positives in 2004 at NYRA). As far as I know, NYRA has nothing to do with drug testing in NY. It is run by the NY Racing Commission which has a contract with Cornell University and NYRA is not even involved. And when Cornell University receives a shipment of samples, they have no idea what samples belong to what horses. So how can Barry Schwartz influence the results? This is crazy!
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=48644&subsec=1

[Tom]

Diversion?

[andicap]

how would a sedative make your horse run faster?

One of the horses in question won and the other lost.

Unless you want the horse to lose to set up a higher price next time. In which case did didn't work because one horse won.

Or would a sedative make a horse forget about his various aches without having a "valium" effect.

Who the hell can run faster after gulping some downers?


Calling Tom the trainer.

:confused:

[Tom]

Do they mask other drugs is what I was getting at.

[andicap]

I said Tom the trainer!!

D'oh!!!

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by andicap
how would a sedative make your horse run faster?

One of the horses in question won and the other lost.

Unless you want the horse to lose to set up a higher price next time. In which case did didn't work because one horse won.

Or would a sedative make a horse forget about his various aches without having a "valium" effect.

Who the hell can run faster after gulping some downers?


Calling Tom the trainer.

:confused:

ANDI

You can give a horse Banamine..that is a 48 hour drug (state rule florida)..Banamine is a painkiller along with a muscle relaxer, If you have a horse with any pain whether it be legs, or internel pain, This drug works well and is really a better drug over bute.The both of these drugs will make a horse sleepy..Banamine and bute can be masked with lasix if the drug is given closer then the rules of the state allow. I dont know the drug that they are talking about with Mr Gill,

[Figman]

Fluphenazine is a pretty strong tranquilizer. In NY, all their drug rules are based on time-out of administration before raceday and NY has a specific list of medications that can be used and when they can be administered byn a veterinarian. If the medication is not listed, then that medication can not be used within 7 days of a race. Only furosemide, also known as Salix (veterinary) or Lasix can be used on raceday. Other drugs are listed by name within the NY rules and can be administered 24 hrs. out, 48 hrs. out, 72 hrs. out, etc. depending on the drug. The NY rules based on the above regulate the use of medications only for the seven day period prior to raceday.

The research scientists advising NY, mainly at Cornell and Rutgers Universities, have determined how long a drug can remain in a typical equine's system. Both universities have horses on campus that are used for these determinations upon studying the copious records that are kept. This is why drug adminstrations to race horses in New York is based on the time out from raceday method. For example, a drug in a 48-hr. catagory, if administered more than 48 hours before raceday will have been expurged from the horses system and not come up as a post race positive test (PRP).

The latest GILL drug fluphenazine can be given two, three or more weeks prior to raceday, well outside that seven day pre-race timeframe, and still be detected by a good well-equipped lab from a submitted raceday sample. I don't know of another racing state that has a rule to cover such an occurence but NY does have such a rule.

The GILL-SHUMAN team may not have realized that NY has a rule that accounts for the administration of both fluphenazine and another long-acting drug reserpine with a special rule that is Rule # 4043.7 below. Of interest I've also included the NY-EPO rule that also has been a hot topic the past year:

Codes Rules and Regulations of the State of New York
9 Executive (E)
Chapter 1, Subchapter A : State Racing Commission
Thoroughbred Rules

4043.6 Erythropoietin and Darbepoietin

(a) A finding by the laboratory that the antibody of erythropoietin or darbepoietin was present in the sample taken from a horse shall establish that the horse is unfit to race in any subsequent race, subject to the provisions of paragraph b.

(b)Any horse that has been the subject of a finding by the laboratory that the antibody of erythropoietin or darbepoietin was present in the sample taken from that horse shall not be entered or allowed to race in any subsequent race until the horse has tested negative for the antibodies of erythropoietin or darbepoietin in a test conducted by the laboratory.

(c)Notwithstanding any inconsistent provision of this Part, a horse shall not be subject to disqualification from the race and from any share of the purse in the race, and the trainer of the horse shall not be subject to application of trainer’s responsibility based upon the finding by the laboratory that the antibody of erythropoietin or darbepoietin was present in the sample taken from that horse.

4043.7 Reserpine and Fluphenazine

(a) Notwithstanding any inconsistent provision of this Part, a finding by the laboratory that the drug reserpine or the drug fluphenazine was present in the sample taken from a horse shall result in the disqualification of the horse from the race and from any share of the purse in the race.

(b) The trainer of a horse which has been the subject of a finding by the laboratory that the drug reserpine or the drug fluphenazine was present in the sample taken from that horse shall not be subject to application of trainer’s responsibility based solely upon the finding by the laboratory that the drug reserpine or the drug fluphenazine was present in the sample.

[Dancer's Image]

Andicap posted...

how would a sedative make your horse run faster?

...that's my point in the other thread, (So Cal racing), other than EPO, I don't think these drugs we're talking about are performance enhancing (unless the horse has a medical condition which the drug treats).

[kenwoodallpromos]

So how can I use drug info to cash more tickets?

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Figman
Fluphenazine is a pretty strong tranquilizer. In NY, all their drug rules are based on time-out of administration before raceday and NY has a specific list of medications that can be used and when they can be administered byn a veterinarian. If the medication is not listed, then that medication can not be used within 7 days of a race. Only furosemide, also known as Salix (veterinary) or Lasix can be used on raceday. Other drugs are listed by name within the NY rules and can be administered 24 hrs. out, 48 hrs. out, 72 hrs. out, etc. depending on the drug. The NY rules based on the above regulate the use of medications only for the seven day period prior to raceday.

The research scientists advising NY, mainly at Cornell and Rutgers Universities, have determined how long a drug can remain in a typical equine's system. Both universities have horses on campus that are used for these determinations upon studying the copious records that are kept. This is why drug adminstrations to race horses in New York is based on the time out from raceday method. For example, a drug in a 48-hr. catagory, if administered more than 48 hours before raceday will have been expurged from the horses system and not come up as a post race positive test (PRP).

The latest GILL drug fluphenazine can be given two, three or more weeks prior to raceday, well outside that seven day pre-race timeframe, and still be detected by a good well-equipped lab from a submitted raceday sample. I don't know of another racing state that has a rule to cover such an occurence but NY does have such a rule.

The GILL-SHUMAN team may not have realized that NY has a rule that accounts for the administration of both fluphenazine and another long-acting drug reserpine with a special rule that is Rule # 4043.7 below. Of interest I've also included the NY-EPO rule that also has been a hot topic the past year:

Codes Rules and Regulations of the State of New York
9 Executive (E)
Chapter 1, Subchapter A : State Racing Commission
Thoroughbred Rules

4043.6 Erythropoietin and Darbepoietin

(a) A finding by the laboratory that the antibody of erythropoietin or darbepoietin was present in the sample taken from a horse shall establish that the horse is unfit to race in any subsequent race, subject to the provisions of paragraph b.

(b)Any horse that has been the subject of a finding by the laboratory that the antibody of erythropoietin or darbepoietin was present in the sample taken from that horse shall not be entered or allowed to race in any subsequent race until the horse has tested negative for the antibodies of erythropoietin or darbepoietin in a test conducted by the laboratory.

(c)Notwithstanding any inconsistent provision of this Part, a horse shall not be subject to disqualification from the race and from any share of the purse in the race, and the trainer of the horse shall not be subject to application of trainer’s responsibility based upon the finding by the laboratory that the antibody of erythropoietin or darbepoietin was present in the sample taken from that horse.

4043.7 Reserpine and Fluphenazine

(a) Notwithstanding any inconsistent provision of this Part, a finding by the laboratory that the drug reserpine or the drug fluphenazine was present in the sample taken from a horse shall result in the disqualification of the horse from the race and from any share of the purse in the race.

(b) The trainer of a horse which has been the subject of a finding by the laboratory that the drug reserpine or the drug fluphenazine was present in the sample taken from that horse shall not be subject to application of trainer’s responsibility based solely upon the finding by the laboratory that the drug reserpine or the drug fluphenazine was present in the sample.

I think I may have a theary into why this hors had a trank in his system
reserpine is a very long acting tranq,I have saw it given to a nervous,unruly,stall walker,weaver horses, This is another drug of choice for a horseman to calm his horse.I have seeen many trainers use this drug for young fillies and 2yos,or older horses that come to the track and are very skittish and unruly.If he did have this horse on the drug,This drug is given every 3 weeks or so to manage the horse,Every horse is different and some horses hold drugs in their systems longer then others,Im sure this was a oversite on the Gill teams people as this is a common drug used every day on the track. Acepromezine is also a drug of choice for a lazy horseman,Also see trainers use it to gallop tough horses in the morn,Kind of stupid if you ask me!.These 2 drugs should only be used..IMO..for emergency purposes and should never be abused

[Observer]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
...Acepromezine is also a drug of choice for a lazy horseman ... trainers use it to gallop tough horses ... Kind of stupid if you ask me! ...

Too many people are all about "quick fixes" instead of getting to the root of a problem, or spending extra time when needed .. and that does not just apply to the equine world.

[Dancer's Image]

McSchell posted...

reserpine is a very long acting tranq,

...Reserpine is an anti-hypertensive drug.

[CryingForTheHorses]

THanks Dancer!
When you use reserpine..10 mins after this shot..its a yellow color..The horse gets a sleepy look in his eye,acts like he is in lala land..The strange thing is..He or she will keep that sleepy-eyed look as long as 3 weeks...Ace Promazine works the same way but only for 1 hour.
I feel guys that train their horses on thes drugs are fools, There are a lot of old time ways to control horses.So much can happen.I worked for a old canadian trainer Andy Smithers,He used to take all the bad boys (colts) in the barn..Have the blacksmith take off theri front shoes an trim them short so their feet were tender ( like the quick on your finger). They didnt jump or play and galloped perfect.It also never hurt their feet and it made the foot better.By the time the feet stoped stinging,( 10 days) They were galloping perfect. I am a great believer in the wonders of medicine, And I am also a great believer in helping a horse all I can under the rules of racing.But for giving a horse the above mentioned drugs to train on.. I Think Not

[Tom]

"When you use reserpine..10 mins after this shot..its a yellow color..The horse gets a sleepy look in his eye,acts like he is in lala land..The strange thing is..He or she will keep that sleepy-eyed look as long as 3 weeks"

That exactly describes me and the track bar!:eek:

[CryingForTheHorses]

LMAO Tom
You know..Your avatar reinds me of a old broken down jock..Callous's on his ass and a far away look in his eyes

[kenwoodallpromos]

"By the time the feet stopped stinging, ( 10 days) They were galloping perfect."
Like I tell my wife when she gets a Dr's shot "It didn't hurt me a bit".
Beats castration.

[Dancer's Image]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
THanks Dancer!
When you use reserpine..10 mins after this shot..its a yellow color..The horse gets a sleepy look in his eye,acts like he is in lala land..The strange thing is..He or she will keep that sleepy-eyed look as long as 3 weeks...Ace Promazine works the same way but only for 1 hour.
I feel guys that train their horses on thes drugs are fools, There are a lot of old time ways to control horses.So much can happen.I worked for a old canadian trainer Andy Smithers,He used to take all the bad boys (colts) in the barn..Have the blacksmith take off theri front shoes an trim them short so their feet were tender ( like the quick on your finger). They didnt jump or play and galloped perfect.It also never hurt their feet and it made the foot better.By the time the feet stoped stinging,( 10 days) They were galloping perfect. I am a great believer in the wonders of medicine, And I am also a great believer in helping a horse all I can under the rules of racing.But for giving a horse the above mentioned drugs to train on.. I Think Not

thanx McSchell,
We're both learning a lot in this thread. I looked up Reserpine again and found this...

Why is this medication prescribed?

Reserpine is used to treat high blood pressure. It works by decreasing your heart rate and relaxing the blood vessels so that blood can flow more easily through the body. It also is used to treat severe agitation in patients with mental disorders.

....so the last part explains the tranquilizer effect of Reserpine. The trimming story is very interesting; we are very lucky as a forum to have you share your expertise with us! Thanks again!

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
thanx McSchell,
We're both learning a lot in this thread. I looked up Reserpine again and found this...

Why is this medication prescribed?

Reserpine is used to treat high blood pressure. It works by decreasing your heart rate and relaxing the blood vessels so that blood can flow more easily through the body. It also is used to treat severe agitation in patients with mental disorders.

....so the last part explains the tranquilizer effect of Reserpine. The trimming story is very interesting; we are very lucky as a forum to have you share your expertise with us! Thanks again!

WOW..I am learning a lot about this drug! Makes me not want to use it even more, Most drugs that they use on horses are used on humans,Dont know if they have studies on certain drugs effects on a horse,After I claim a horse,I wait a few days before assessng him as he may have different drugs in his system delaying his real personality.

[Suff]

Originally posted by Figman
What is up with this tandem? The owner is blaming Barry Schwartz for his two latest NY drug positives (Gill owned horses incurred 4 post race positives in 2004 at NYRA). http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=48644&subsec=1

He states that Scwartz and/or his office requested extra scrutinty of Gill's stock. I don't find that hard to believe. They do not want him in NY. Thats a Known fact. They would'nt give him stalls at Saratoga. He's the leading owner in the country and he can't get a few stalls? The NYRA backside has more than a few trainers with Bad urines on thier resume's as well. Its a double standard. I don't know enough about it to have a solid opinion. But I do know that Gill Claims ....and claims big... and thats a a bit of a no-no at many circuits. Especially the way he claims and drops. The industry does'nt like the guy... and I'm not so sure its for the right reasons.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Suff
He states that Scwartz and/or his office requested extra scrutinty of Gill's stock. I don't find that hard to believe. They do not want him in NY. Thats a Known fact. They would'nt give him stalls at Saratoga. He's the leading owner in the country and he can't get a few stalls? The NYRA backside has more than a few trainers with Bad urines on thier resume's as well. Its a double standard. I don't know enough about it to have a solid opinion. But I do know that Gill Claims ....and claims big... and thats a a bit of a no-no at many circuits. Especially the way he claims and drops. The industry does'nt like the guy... and I'm not so sure its for the right reasons.

IMO..Gill is great for the game!!
Calder changed their claiming rule because of Gill. All the big trainers were worried that he may claim them out and leave town.Horses are put in claiming races to be claimed. Not wanting to give this man stalls is uncalled for.He claims horses and does run them back several times and it give different people a chance to claim them back..It seems ok for anyone but Mr Gill to be able to claim a horse. This guy speands millions on the game and does deserve some credit! I also think the claiming rule is very wrong. If a man puts up his money to claim a horse, He should be allowed to take that horse and run him anywhere and any track he wants, Te claiming rule of not being able to race anywhere other then the track you claimed at for a period of 90 days is ludicrous IMO...Calders rule is not 90days but the end of the meet..I dont understand all the hoopla over this guy, Yes he has had a few x's on his resume but all in all his animals run good.I say welcome Gill and let him have stalls.

[Dancer's Image]

I agree with you, McSchell....the way the racing industry has treated Gill is shameful. Tell me, how did Calder change their claiming rule because of Gill?

[Figman]

OK guys...granted claiming is all part of the game. Now read this 4-part story; fast forward and add four 2004 NY drug positives, another one or two in Maryland and some earlier ones in New England and how do you say this outfit is "good for the game?"

http://tinyurl.com/44mg6

[Figman]

Nor can mortgage broker Mr. Gill play by the rules outside of the racing game!
http://tinyurl.com/69w5x

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
I agree with you, McSchell....the way the racing industry has treated Gill is shameful. Tell me, how did Calder change their claiming rule because of Gill?

Calder's meet runs from April to the end of Oct. The rule used to be if you claimed a horse you couldnt run him anywhere except in the state of Florida for a period of 90 days. Now they are telling us you cant run anywhere till the end of the meet..Crap if you ask me.

[Macdiarmadillo]

Same rule in Calif., been like that for a while. If you saw what looked like short layoffs for horses that Gill claimed in Calif. and took elsewhere, that was what that was about. Not a good deal for the breeders within the state if you ask me.

[CryingForTheHorses]

I myself think the 90 day rules is crap! A man that puts up his money should be alowed to run where he pleases,Would be better if you ask me, You would have a influx of different horses at different tracks instead of the same horses running in the same races every time you enter, Would also make breeders pay more attention to who is claiming what and where horses are needed.I realy dont think Mr Gill is looking to cheat as he spends thouands of dollars. Like I have said before, Horse are individuals and some hold different drugs longer then others. Different tracks have different drug rules The guys that are afraid of getting their horses claimed need to find something else to do.It would be great to claim a horse in NY then bring him to florida to run..I just dont see the harm.I also think a licenced owner that is in good standing and has run horses this year should be able to claim at any track he wants.This having to haverun a horse at he meet sucks. This is IMO

[kenwoodallpromos]

The answer was in the news lately- Gill is not enriching the breeders by buy expensive "Classic" offspring so breeders can enrich themselves- selling expensive offspring and stud service is what the industry wants. Will Gill pay $100,000.00 for Smarty Jones service, whom Beyers does not like the pedigree of?
In the eyes of the big shot breeders, owners and trainers, racing is propably being ruined by so many "cheap" horses winning the KY Derby the last few years.
I'm not surprised the industry hates Gill for only taking cheap stock and winning, showing up all the "blueblood" horses.
It does not seem to matter that Gill improves ALL his horses by automatically giving them myectomys.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by kenwoodallpromos
The answer was in the news lately- Gill is not enriching the breeders by buy expensive "Classic" offspring so breeders can enrich themselves- selling expensive offspring and stud service is what the industry wants. Will Gill pay $100,000.00 for Smarty Jones service, whom Beyers does not like the pedigree of?
In the eyes of the big shot breeders, owners and trainers, racing is propably being ruined by so many "cheap" horses winning the KY Derby the last few years.
I'm not surprised the industry hates Gill for only taking cheap stock and winning, showing up all the "blueblood" horses.
It does not seem to matter that Gill improves ALL his horses by automatically giving them myectomys.


Myectomys??????

Ken what on earth are you talking about?

[CryingForTheHorses]

Thankyou Ken!!
I have seen this done but never knew the medical name for it.When I worked for this trainer, He had had this vet come into the barn in Toronto,This vet had a scope on his shoulder and was scoping several horses after training hours..He wrote things down about each horse he scoped on a pad of paper.Next thing I knew he and his asst gave this horse a shot and down he went,I was utterly shocked when he slit this horses throat and started pulling this and that with forcips, He then said ok and left the stall..Told us to put furasin on the wound and keep jogging him..WOW!!. The next morning I put Lisa on him and had her jog him around the main track...Was the strangest thing.It was early november and you could see his breath from his nostrils but almost fell over when I saw his breath also coming out of the hole in his neck. Horse healed fine and did win races at gulfstream..Does it work?...Im sure it works on some horses.

[kenwoodallpromos]

An article in the DRF msaid Gill underm Shulman paid $500.00 to have it done to all they claimed- then others claimed back a much better horse!
Articles have said competitors complained that Gill was not purchasing young horses to race like other rich owners- and that was supposed to be behind the denial of space.
Of course, those paranoid would say myectomys is a good way to disguise drugs. LOL.

[Macdiarmadillo]

The surgery helps to varying degrees only about half the time, I have been told. Used to be more expensive, too, so most owners wouldn't pay for the procedure. Looks like an outpatient thing nowadays from McSchell's report!

[Suff]

Originally posted by Figman
OK guys...granted claiming is all part of the game. Now read this 4-part story; fast forward and add four 2004 NY drug positives, another one or two in Maryland and some earlier ones in New England and how do you say this outfit is "good for the game?"

http://tinyurl.com/44mg6

Fig

That whole Article starts with the premise of "these guys are Loud Mouths"

and "these guys don't fit".

I have a tremendous amount of respect for the game....and for you. However.... i think that your propensity for straightening the ship and your insular life with the insiders has tainted your views on Gill. He's no Uglier than the rest and furher.... NO ONE is risking more of thier own money than this guy...


I believe your penchant for the status quo has you biased here.

Suff

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Suff
Fig

That whole Article starts with the premise of "these guys are Loud Mouths"

and "these guys don't fit".

I have a tremendous amount of respect for the game....and for you. However.... i think that your propensity for straightening the ship and your insular life with the insiders has tainted your views on Gill. He's no Uglier than the rest and furher.... NO ONE is risking more of thier own money than this guy...


I believe your penchant for the status quo has you biased here.

Suff

Well said Suff!
Its very easy fo people to assume and point fingers when they havent got a stake in the claim.This man risks hs money every time he claims a horse, Just like I do and countless of other owners that claim and buy. I myself like a ready made horse rather then go thu the lengthly process of waiting for the 2yo's.But in reality you need to buy young horses to keep the game going. The amount of horse's run by the Gill stable far excedes the violations that this man has had. If Mr Gill was a cheat, His violations would be closer to his run ratio.Ill say this again. A man like Gill is a godsend to the game, Too bad there arent 100 more stables like him..

[Figman]

C'Mon McSchell,
This outfit doesn't even race full time at NYRA and they have four post race positives in 7 months of 2004! That's a terrible record in anyone's book.

Suff<
Just want all the horsemen competing with their God-given talents and that does not include their chemistry sets. In my opinion, therapeutic drugs are "ok" but "go-fasts" and tranquilizers don't belong in a horse's system on raceday.

[Suff]

Originally posted by Figman
C'Mon McSchell,
This outfit doesn't even race full time at NYRA and they have four post race positives in 7 months of 2004! That's a terrible record in anyone's book.

Suff<
Just want all the horsemen competing with their God-given talents and that does not include their chemistry sets. In my opinion, therapeutic drugs are "ok" but "go-fasts" and tranquilizers don't belong in a horse's system on raceday.

yes... but Fig.... You aint had a good word to say about gill/shuman for 2 years.....and.... yes... I know what you do for a living,,,, So i stand by opinion... Your crowd does'nt like that crowd....and thats that...

I really believe he's great for the game...


Start a list... "owners" that get press? None, They're all funny money or syndivates.... This guys just " wings".... and slings .... all his own dough,,, and everything yu got on him you could lay on Kimmel or dutrow or Sanfred Goldfarb or Scott lake,,, and et al....

I stand with Gill.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Figman
C'Mon McSchell,
This outfit doesn't even race full time at NYRA and they have four post race positives in 7 months of 2004! That's a terrible record in anyone's book.

Suff<
Just want all the horsemen competing with their God-given talents and that does not include their chemistry sets. In my opinion, therapeutic drugs are "ok" but "go-fasts" and tranquilizers don't belong in a horse's system on raceday.

Mr Figman,
Please explain what you mean by go-fasts?
These horses in question..The drug that is being called the tranqulizer is called Reserpine.Please research my other posts on this.This Im sure is a oversite on either vets, or trainers records as to when the horse had the drug and how long he was off it. NYRC has a lot of different rules pertaining to drugs and the tme limits in each horse differ.I dont know what you do for a living, I dont know Mr Gill,I think you are being a little harsh on a man who is hoping to win a race.NYRA already had made up their minds about giving him stalls befroe he even asked,Happened to him here,I would love to train for the guy cause he loves to win, Runs them where they can win and gives the people a chance to claim them back. What a game!!

[Figman]

There have been no reserpines called in NY in recent years.

The last two Gill-Shuman positives were for the tranquilizer fluphenazine while there were two other drugs called on the Gill trainers in NY earlier the Spring of 2004.

Neither was reserpine or fluphenazine. One positive belonged to Gill-Shuman and the other to Gill-Robb. I still say three difference drugs and four positives in a seven month period with limited New York starters far too much!

By the way "go-fasts" are what they call drugs in Australia/New Zealand that "hop up" an equine or cause the horse to go faster.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Figman
There have been no reserpines called in NY in recent years.

The last two Gill-Shuman positives were for the tranquilizer fluphenazine while there were two other drugs called on the Gill trainers in NY earlier the Spring of 2004.

Neither was reserpine or fluphenazine. One positive belonged to Gill-Shuman and the other to Gill-Robb. I still say three difference drugs and four positives in a seven month period with limited New York starters far too much!

By the way "go-fasts" are what they call drugs in Australia/New Zealand that "hop up" an equine or cause the horse to go faster.

Now that your on the subject of go-fast drugs, Im going to scold you!!
Its people like you and your perception of people doing illegal things to horses that are ruining the sport, Not trying to be a smarty, But think about it, You are just looking to dig up dirt on a guy who is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in the game, Hell, I have even heard other people say.."hope Gill claims him and Ill claim him back". Why dont you venture further and look at the whole picture of the Gill racing empire.There is nothing wrong with claiming horses period!! This man has done what others havent, Just because he isnt buying younger horses doest mean he is bad for the business. I do wish you would change your mind.. Thaks

[Suff]

Gill responded in a matter of fact way to the accusations that he cheats..

He said

"Look... I'm a very rich guy.. I don't need to make a dime in the Horse Racing Business and I'll still be rich. There is no Financial Incentive for me to cheat"

and Further

"If I'm cheating.. I'm pretty bad it. I win about 15% of my races.. Thats no more than many many other owners... ... You'd think I'd be winning more if I was cheating as much as I've been accused of"..

Honestly... I have no Idea if he cheats currently... If he ever cheated or occassionaly cheats.. . I did hear that he was using the Shockwave Machine in Florida last year.. But again, I don't know and he was never caught using it.

The reason I'm tempted to side with him is that I see what amounts to an Industry wide Conspiracy against the guy. And no one can say with a straight face that even if he has cheated or used performance enhancing drugs, he certainly is not any worse than many other Connections with Stalls in places that he can't get into.


I think its clear that the Primary reason he gets denied is His Business Practices....

[Suff]

This is a common medication used legaly in training... Correct? And if slightly over medicated will show up in small amounts on race day.



http://www.drf.com/news/article/59455.html

September 28,2004
Shuman hit for positive
By DOUG McCOY
Trainer Mark Shuman was suspended for 15 days and fined $500 by Delaware Park stewards on Monday after one of the horses in his care tested positive for a prohibited substance.

Highway Prospector, owned by Michael Gill, tested positive for the medication diclofenac after winning the $100,000 Vincent Moscarelli Memorial Handicap on July 24. After a hearing and the testing of a split sample, Delaware Park stewards suspended Shuman from Oct. 11 through Oct. 25.

Highway Prospector was disqualified from purse money in the Moscarelli and runner-up Don Six was awarded the $60,000 winner's share

[Dancer's Image]

The real question is why should Diclofenac be a prohibited substance in the first place?

Butazolidin was a prohibited substance some 36 years ago when my namesake was DQ'ed from the Kentucky Derby but now it is an allowed substance. Diclofenac is essentially the same as Bute, so why is it prohibited? These are both NSAID's, (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs) and will absolutely not provide any horse with an advantage, unless that horse has an inflammatory condition. And don't we want to treat inflammatory conditions in horses?

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Suff
Gill responded in a matter of fact way to the accusations that he cheats..

He said

"Look... I'm a very rich guy.. I don't need to make a dime in the Horse Racing Business and I'll still be rich. There is no Financial Incentive for me to cheat"

and Further

"If I'm cheating.. I'm pretty bad it. I win about 15% of my races.. Thats no more than many many other owners... ... You'd think I'd be winning more if I was cheating as much as I've been accused of"..

Honestly... I have no Idea if he cheats currently... If he ever cheated or occassionaly cheats.. . I did hear that he was using the Shockwave Machine in Florida last year.. But again, I don't know and he was never caught using it.

The reason I'm tempted to side with him is that I see what amounts to an Industry wide Conspiracy against the guy. And no one can say with a straight face that even if he has cheated or used performance enhancing drugs, he certainly is not any worse than many other Connections with Stalls in places that he can't get into.


I think its clear that the Primary reason he gets denied is His Business Practices....

Extra Corporeal Shock Wave Therapy (ECSW )

Suff, This is legal in the state of florida, rule states tht this may be applied by licenced Vet in good standing.Horses getting this treatment must be listed with the state vet within 24 hours of getting this treatment. I have heard of it but have never seen it done to a horse.

[Dancer's Image]

Suff or McSchell;
ECSW therapy? I've never even heard of it....WTF is it?

[Suff]

Someone will probably come along with a full explanation , but as far as i was told.

It's an Electronic therapy that is also used on Humans to ease Chronic Cartlidge , Tendon and Ligament Pain. In Animals, it is predominately done in Vetranarian Clinics by Authorized Vets....It masks pain in Horses. The Thing I heard about the Gill/Shuman team was that Gill Purchased a "portable" shockwave Machine. They're about as Big as a mid-size suitcase and run as much as 50 grand apiece. I heard they had the machine with them and Florida and were working on they're horses with it. It was completely 2nd hand information and I have no way of knowing if its true or just a guess by persons with an Axe to grind on them.
http://www.holisticjunction.com/categories/shockwave-therapy.html

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/horses/shockwavelaymandescrip.htm

[Dancer's Image]

Thanks again Suff...this is from your link....

Shockwave Therapy

What is SHOCKWAVE THERAPY? Shockwave Therapy is an alternative therapy for assisting chronic pain sufferers. Used on humans for over 25 years for urologic and orthopedic conditions, shockwave therapy have even been introduced to veterinary and equine medicine as well. Helping individuals suffering from a range of conditinos, including: golf or tennis elbow, stiff shoulders, calcaneeal spurs, joint calcification, chroinc tendon pain, and many other musculoskeletal disorders; shockwave therapy could possibly be the answer to help and healing.

Shockwave therapy is administered via an articulating head which is placed directly onto the area of treatments, where adjustments are fine-tuned to the specific therapeutic focus. Once adjusted, preset shockwaves are administered at low-energy levels; thus permitting anesthesia-free therapy.

Shockwave therapy treatments generally last 15-30 minutes each and usually are administered over a course of three (3) treatments - depending on individual patients.

Use beginning in the 1970s for kidney stone treatments, shockwave therapy has been scientifically proven to reduce pain and help in healing. To learn more about shockwave therapy or if you are interested in finding a practitioner who utilizes shockwave therapy, feel free to peruse our practitioner directory today at holisticjunction.com.

....of course I've heard of that in so far as treating kidney stones, the shock waves break up the stones which can then be passed (lithotripsy). And it further makes sense then that Shock Wave therapy could break up other calcifications in joints and/or tendons, which would be helpful to both horse and human.

And once again, why would this procedure be illegal?

[CryingForTheHorses]

Wow, Thanks Suff and Dancer!
When you ask a vet about this, You will never get what you just posted,I do know some vets at Calder do this but Im a hard-ass when it comes to this kind of thing,Maybe they did have a machine and for the life of me, Like Dancer wouldnt know why its banned or why you need to report that a horse had had the treatment,If there isnt any illegal drugs involved,And if it really helps,I dont see why it isnt allowed, Maybe Im missing something.Have any of you other guys had this done to your horse? Please fill me in..Have a horse I need to shock.!!

[karlskorner]

Sort of sums up this thread

www.drf.com/news/article/59455.html

[Dancer's Image]

Karl,
Try to keep up here with the discussion. Suff posted that same story yesterday. Now you can go back to sleep.

[Maxspa]

ALL,
Having owned and trained my own harness horses in 70's, I have an opinion to share. I raced a cheap claimer for five years. He received the best care possible. Oats, good hay, vitamin supplements, regular vet visits for worming, teeth checks and normal checks for sickness. In short, I raced my horses clean.
One of the problems with illegal substances is that if someone claims your horse and uses milkshakes or other banned methods there is a two fold problem. First of all, if the horse temporarily moves up the claiming ladder and wins then any claiming horse you train is marked with I can improve off this trainer's ability. Secondly this move can significantly affect the horse's physical wellbeing and his racing career could be shortened.
Most importantly, some trainers using their chemistry sets etc. have created an unfair, illegal racing sitauation that affects all of us horsemen, handicappers and fans. Credibility is a facet of racing that is necessary for the sport to continue, grow and attract new people, so I'm all for cleaning up the in house improprieties.
Maxspa

[kenwoodallpromos]

Cornell University website-
__________
Animal Health Diagnostic Laboratory - Laboratory Sections

Equine Drug Testing


The Equine Drug Testing program has been active at 7 tracks throughout New York, running a total of 64,704 samples for a long list of drugs. A total of 144 positive samples were detected in 1998-1999, from 46 different drugs. The program maintains a research program for developing and validating assay procedures to keep up with the demand for new and better means of detecting drugs in race horses.
_____________
I assume at least 1/2 of the positives were either honest mistakes by the vet or trainer or just over the allowable limits due to the time period involved.
Seems to me really cleaning up drugs would involve allowing less different drugs tio be used at all so trainers would have much less excuses.
Must be a bear for trainers to monitor all horses' drug use by both vets and barn.
Not to mention the contact high a horse can get from the jockey.
So why is beer legal for horses?
LOL.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Its very easy to blame the vet!
There is No excuse for not keeping drug records of the horses and watching them closely with your vet, All records of shots should be the same for the trainer and vet.I have seen vets give shots to horses and nobody is even around to witness what was given,I am a great believer in bearing witness to all that is done to my horses,These people that Mr Gill has working for him need to pay closer attention to drug rules.Lots of times, Like the other day, I will run a horse "clean" just to see.I also give them a few days after I claim then to see just what kind of personalty they really have after all drugs ave worn off,Im sure lots of horses are junkies from all the different drugs being used.NYRA has the strickest drug laws in the land Im told?.