Creativity + Big Purses= Kentucky Downs

[bello]

I was not able to be there in person this year but I have not missed a single race. Watching that is...not betting. Tough place to win for sure.

But what a great meet. Capped by a fantastic and creative mile and a half $10,000 starter allowance with a 50K purse. I believe starter handicaps and starter allowances for high purses are one of the best inventions in the game.

Drew 16 horses from a variety of different tracks.

That is how you draw horses.

Nice season swan song for a great race place!

[Parson]

I really like this track and it is so player friendly. If you have not been, you must. You can pack a chair and cooler. Admission is free so is parking.Lines are reasonable for the mutual clerks. The clerks are friendly and willing to help the novice.

The auto teller machines would be the only improvement I could recommend. They were difficult for me to use.

And I would be amiss if I did not mention being owner friendly. We did not have one ready to run there this year, but last year we ran 3 different times. They paid us 1k to ship in plus our purse money. And the purse money.....we all know how good that it is.

[bello]

Yep, maybe we even met there last year. I place my chair near the paddock anf never miss the walking ring. Met lots of owners who had horses in at some time during the day. Great conversation and comeraderie, even though I am not an owner, just a bettor and fan.

[ZippyChippy423]

I think the track itself especially the rails is/are very dangerous. Uneven surface and the track shape must make it a challenge on the horses and jockeys. I like the big fields and pools are great but it comes with a price. The races are more like a decathalon. Not my favorite track. Pass.

[craigbraddick]

Horses run on tracks like that all over the world every day and at distances sometimes exceeding 4 miles. Zippychippy, are you saying American trained horses are not up to it?

[Nitro]

From a player’s perspective you couldn’t ask for more: Great cards with big fields and generally good value.
As far as the track itself goes its not the pristine turf course found in Hong Kong, but I certainly wouldn’t describe it as “dangerous” what-so-ever.

BTW we’ve been posting some “Live” selections and having reasonably decent success:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147276&page=9

[bello]

From a player’s perspective you couldn’t ask for more: Great cards with big fields and generally good value.
As far as the track itself goes its not the pristine turf course found in Hong Kong, but I certainly wouldn’t describe it as “dangerous” what-so-ever.

BTW we’ve been posting some “Live” selections and having reasonably decent success:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147276&page=9

Missed the selection page. I'll join in today an make a fool of myself.

[Thomas Roulston]

But why didn't they let all 16 run? When the Breeders' Cup was held at Woodbine in 1996, their jockey club requested permission to run 20-horse fields in the turf races. The request was denied.

[bello]

But why didn't they let all 16 run? When the Breeders' Cup was held at Woodbine in 1996, their jockey club requested permission to run 20-horse fields in the turf races. The request was denied.
Sometimes it is a tote system issue and they cannot handle that many entrants. Also may be a starting gate positioning issue.

[Thomas Roulston]

Sometimes it is a tote system issue and they cannot handle that many entrants. Also may be a starting gate positioning issue.


If the tote can only accommodate 12 betting interests the track can always bring back the old-school mutuel fields. As for starting gates, don't Abu Dhabi, Dubai etc. use 16-horse gates? And with the increased handle that larger fields would bring, sooner or later the gate would pay for itself. Of course large fields would not be desirable if a race starts too close to the turn, but that's a separate issue entirely.

[thaskalos]

A 5-day meet, and everyone gushes over it as if it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Kentucky Downs markets itself as if it's a national industry leader, when the reality is that the track is nothing more than a racing novelty. Have they done anything to fix those funky camera angles this year? I go on HorseTourneys, and the Kentucky Downs tournaments practically DOMINATE that site. Everybody loves a gimmick, I guess. To me, it's an altogether forgettable experience...and I am glad that it's over before I can even take notice of it.

[Immortal6]

A 5-day meet, and everyone gushes over it as if it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Kentucky Downs markets itself as if it's a national industry leader, when the reality is that the track is nothing more than a racing novelty. Have they done anything to fix those funky camera angles this year? I go on HorseTourneys, and the Kentucky Downs tournaments practically DOMINATE that site. Everybody loves a gimmick, I guess. To me, it's an altogether forgettable experience...and I am glad that it's over before I can even take notice of it.

I've only been playing for about 2 years now, didn't play KD last year but played every day this year and I made a killing. I had something like a 1.70 roi thanks to some nice exactas. The track touts that it has full fields and the lowest takeout of any track, so who gives a crap if it's a novelty?

We are all entitled to our opinions, and mine is that racing needs more meets like this one. Everyone likes to bitch about small fields and high takeout so this meet should be a breath of fresh air to anyone that loves turf handicapping.

I will agree that they need to do something about the camera angle coming down the stretch however. So difficult to judge who is closing, who is fading, who is in the lead etc...

[dilanesp]

But why didn't they let all 16 run? When the Breeders' Cup was held at Woodbine in 1996, their jockey club requested permission to run 20-horse fields in the turf races. The request was denied.

That doesn't surprise me. If a top horse got in trouble in a 20 horse field, the BC would never hear the end of it.

[dilanesp]

A 5-day meet, and everyone gushes over it as if it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Kentucky Downs markets itself as if it's a national industry leader, when the reality is that the track is nothing more than a racing novelty. Have they done anything to fix those funky camera angles this year? I go on HorseTourneys, and the Kentucky Downs tournaments practically DOMINATE that site. Everybody loves a gimmick, I guess. To me, it's an altogether forgettable experience...and I am glad that it's over before I can even take notice of it.

As I have said in many conversations, not everything in horse racing is designed to please you.

If you don't like KD, there are other options.

[thaskalos]

As I have said in many conversations, not everything in horse racing is designed to please you.

If you don't like KD, there are other options.

Sorry...I didn't realize that this thread is for favorable reviews only. Carry on, counselor. :ThmbUp:

[GMB@BP]

A 5-day meet, and everyone gushes over it as if it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Kentucky Downs markets itself as if it's a national industry leader, when the reality is that the track is nothing more than a racing novelty. Have they done anything to fix those funky camera angles this year? I go on HorseTourneys, and the Kentucky Downs tournaments practically DOMINATE that site. Everybody loves a gimmick, I guess. To me, it's an altogether forgettable experience...and I am glad that it's over before I can even take notice of it.

I give them credit for the low takeout, other than that not sure what they are doing different, short meet with giant purses for a lot of inferior horses, of course its gonna draw well.

[Nitro]

A 5-day meet, and everyone gushes over it as if it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Kentucky Downs markets itself as if it's a national industry leader, when the reality is that the track is nothing more than a racing novelty. Have they done anything to fix those funky camera angles this year? I go on HorseTourneys, and the Kentucky Downs tournaments practically DOMINATE that site. Everybody loves a gimmick, I guess. To me, it's an altogether forgettable experience...and I am glad that it's over before I can even take notice of it.
What a sad and disingenuous commentary! Obviously your take on this meet has to go beyond just a “funky camera angle” or whatever gimmickry you might be referring to.
Why not just spit it out and admit your real reason for disliking the KD meet!

[linrom1]

Playing KD probably feels like it was playing in 1970s. Payoffs are humongous. Silly little P-4s payoffs are 4-5 times what they would be at NYRA.

They have real horses, real owners, real jockeys and real track management and not the bullshit that NYRA or Stronach present as horse racing while lining insiders and whales pockets.

[elhelmete]

Playing KD probably feels like it was playing in 1970s. Payoffs are humongous. Silly little P-4s payoffs are 4-5 times what they would be at NYRA.

They have real horses, real owners, real jockeys and real track management and not the bullshit that NYRA or Stronach present as horse racing while lining insiders and whales pockets.

For 5 days.

[GMB@BP]

For 5 days.

they would not be able to do this for anything more than that.

So the moral of this thread is that if we can run 5 day meets everywhere maybe its the model for racing?

[thaskalos]

they would not be able to do this for anything more than that.

So the moral of this thread is that if we can run 5 day meets everywhere maybe its the model for racing?

Yes...this is clearly something that our game could use a lot more of. :ThmbUp:

[Nitro]

they would not be able to do this for anything more than that.

So the moral of this thread is that if we can run 5 day meets everywhere maybe its the model for racing?

No, obviously the moral of this thread is that many of us appreciated a meet where the intention was solid grass racing that offered big fields and big value.

Perhaps this kind of meet could be lengthened if they only raced a couple of days each week to preserve the racing surface.

The model should be Hong Kong where they race 2 days a week at 2 different tracks 10 months of the year with 95% of their 800 some odd races being on the turf. Their grass surfaces are always in top notch condition. Even with heavy rains the drainage is excellent. And they never take races off the turf.

[dilanesp]

they would not be able to do this for anything more than that.

So the moral of this thread is that if we can run 5 day meets everywhere maybe its the model for racing?

Well, Europe has lots of short boutique meets.

[linrom1]

they would not be able to do this for anything more than that.

So the moral of this thread is that if we can run 5 day meets everywhere maybe its the model for racing?

That's 5 more days than I watch GP summer/fall meet! And likely 2-3 more days than I'll watch BEL.

[Nitro]

Once again the negativity on the PA forum comes to light which as far as I’m concerned is so far off from the general consensus it’s ridiculous!
Perhaps a few words from an outside source will offer some enlightenment to the sceptics.
https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/229575/another-record-handle-mark-for-kentucky-downs

Kentucky Downs, which features low takeout compared with other tracks, smashed its handle record for the sixth straight year, with a total of $36,421,722 wagered on the five-date meet.

All-sources betting of $7,021,553 Sept. 13 was a record for the closing card.

The meet total tops by 20% last year's $30,246,888. The betting record Kentucky Downs set in 2013 was $12,814,891 and this year's handle is number nearly 2 1/2 times that figure.
Kentucky Downs registered its highest betting day ever this year when $10,039,008 was wagered on Saturday, Sept. 8. It also recorded its third-highest ever when $7,313,857 was bet Sept. 12 on the card postponed from Sunday after significant rain hit the region.

Kentucky Downs doesn't charge admission, but the eyeball test suggested crowds were the highest ever. For the first time, the Finish Line Pavilion—expanded and upgraded from when it was the Finish Line Tent—sold out all five days, including the two Thursday cards.

"The meet was fabulous on just about all fronts," said Ted Nicholson, senior vice president and general manager of Kentucky Downs. "Even the negative from having to cancel this past Sunday because of the downpour soaking the area turned into a great day of racing on Wednesday. Every year we go back to the drawing board and try to figure out how we can do better, how can we accommodate even more of our guests, especially from out of town. This year it was the Finish Line Pavilion. Who knows what it will be next year? Clearly there is high demand for open-air dining near the finish line. It's a great problem to have.

"We have twin missions that we take very seriously: to take care of our on-track guests who create our unique atmosphere and also those wagering on our races through simulcast and online outlets. Obviously the majority of our handle of $36 million was bet offsite. It's a testament to all those horseplayers who love outstanding turf racing, full fields and great betting value with our low takeout on wagers. We're excited to see what 2019 will bring."

A record $10,233,665.60 was paid out to horsemen in purses and Kentucky Thoroughbred Development Fund monies, up from the then-record $8,625,396 last year.
Kentucky Downs figures to retain its leadership for having America's largest fields at 11.04 horses per race this meet with 552 starters for 50 races, up from last year's nation-leading 10.44 per race. The previous record was the 10.96 horses per race in 2016…..

Kentucky Downs by the numbers (from the track)
All Sources Handle 2018
Day 1: $6,205,874
Day 2: $5,825,797
Day 3: $10,039,008*
Day 4: $7,329,490***
Day 5: $7,021,553

2018 TOTAL: $36,421,722 (all-time record)
* Highest in track history
*** Third-highest in track history
All Sources Handle 2017
Day 1: $4,633,176.29
Day 2: $5,402,254.66
Day 3: $8,487,323.27**
Day 4: $6,044,717.15
Day 5: $5,679,416.31

2017 TOTAL: $30,246,888
** second-highest in track history
All Sources Handle 2016
Day 1: $4,603,239.82
Day 2: $4,019,637.14
Day 3: $5,769,505.23
Day 4: $4,487,790.40
Day 5 $3,660,588.63
2016 TOTAL: $22,540,761.22

Betting on Kentucky Downs since 2012
Year (dates) all-sources total
2018 (5) $36,421,722
2017 (5) $30,246,888
2016 (5) $22,540,764
2015 (5) $16,887,134
2014 (5) $15,880,755
2013 (5) $12,814,891
2012 (5) $7,570,731

Average field sizes since 2011
2018: 11.04 horses per race (552 starters in 50 races, a record)
2017: 10.44
2016: 10.96
2015: 10.60
2014: 10.20
2013: 9.90
2012: 9.57
2011: 8.76

[GMB@BP]

I already said congratz, its a nice meet with a great product.

Its just not viable for longer than 5 days. Those tracks actually probably hurt the local horseman more than they help since so many top outfits are shipping in to scoop up the inflated purses.

How many stables do they support for a long period of time? Meaning training there, living there, etc?

See they count on the other tracks to pay for their ability to race.

So its a great 5 days of racing, a viable long term strategy, dont see it.

[elhelmete]

I already said congratz, its a nice meet with a great product.

Its just not viable for longer than 5 days. Those tracks actually probably hurt the local horseman more than they help since so many top outfits are shipping in to scoop up the inflated purses.

How many stables do they support for a long period of time? Meaning training there, living there, etc?

See they count on the other tracks to pay for their ability to race.

So its a great 5 days of racing, a viable long term strategy, dont see it.

+1

I like their product a lot.

I almost made a trip out there as my sole gift to myself for my 50th birthday.

I think there is a lot of room for these ultra-boutique race meets as part of the American racing landscape.

I absolutely love the can-do and push the envelope attitude of the track management.

There are lessons in ALL of that that can be instructive for the rest of racing's leadership. They should pay attention.

But it's not a straight cut-and-copy for a number of reasons.

I became a racing fan in large part because I attended in person several times in my youth. If I had to chase a bunch of 5 day meets in remote parts of the country, I don't think I'd be the fan/player/sometimes-owner I am today.

[jay68802]

No, obviously the moral of this thread is that many of us appreciated a meet where the intention was solid grass racing that offered big fields and big value.

:ThmbUp:

I enjoyed the meet, good racing, and did not have to deal with Chad Brown winning almost every race. Stuck with playing a limited # of tickets and concentrated on Pick 3's and 4's. Was proud of myself for being alive to some very good payouts, but did not close the deal on any of them. Had 3 horses that made it slightly profitable. I much prefer this track to the marathon of short field races at Belmont and Gulfstream. The best thing was that I got a free new hat also. They have earned my wagering dollars, and will get them.
Handicappers should embrace this track, they are trying to earn your money, and that is more than you can say for any other track in the nation. And yes the funky camera angle got me also. I was thinking my horse wasn't going to get there and then they changed cameras and I realized he had more time.:D

[thespaah]

they would not be able to do this for anything more than that.

So the moral of this thread is that if we can run 5 day meets everywhere maybe its the model for racing?

This is the model used in Asia and Europe.
DUH

[GMB@BP]

This is the model used in Asia and Europe.
DUH

So I think horse racing checks in about 25th most popular sport in the US, its easily top 5 in those parts of the world.

The Queen of England has been to more Ky Derbys that last 50 years than the President of the US.

Its apples and oranges on both support and financial modeling.

If this is such a cash windfall as the article states why arent more tracks doing it? What, they dont like money too?

[thespaah]

+1

I like their product a lot.

I almost made a trip out there as my sole gift to myself for my 50th birthday.

I think there is a lot of room for these ultra-boutique race meets as part of the American racing landscape.

I absolutely love the can-do and push the envelope attitude of the track management.

There are lessons in ALL of that that can be instructive for the rest of racing's leadership. They should pay attention.

But it's not a straight cut-and-copy for a number of reasons.

I became a racing fan in large part because I attended in person several times in my youth. If I had to chase a bunch of 5 day meets in remote parts of the country, I don't think I'd be the fan/player/sometimes-owner I am today.

This is the model everywhere BUT North America.
Here we have extended meets. In the UK a race meeting may last two weeks.
In Japan and Hong Kong, meets last a few days.
In Japan and Hong Kong, every race program has Breeders Cup Day sized handles.
Avg on track attendance ( JRA figures for 2017)
22, 400. Avg on track handle per race card , $2.72 million. Average All sources daily handle ....$87 million. Average starters per race 14.1
http://japanracing.jp/_statistics/2017/s01.html
Now, Japan has casinos. Japanese people love to wager. They can wager on power boat racing. There are Pachinko machines everywhere. The reason i mention this is Japanese people have tons of gaming or gambling opportunities. So that excuse used by many here in the US doesn't wash.
So someone please explain how it is that a country with on quarter the land mass and one half the population can get 14 horses to start each race....AND get more people to be more money on the product.
And all track managements here can do is make excuses.
Could it be that we here in the US and Canada just aren't doing it right?

[GMB@BP]

This is the model everywhere BUT North America.
Here we have extended meets. In the UK a race meeting may last two weeks.
In Japan and Hong Kong, meets last a few days.
In Japan and Hong Kong, every race program has Breeders Cup Day sized handles.
Avg on track attendance ( JRA figures for 2017)
22, 400. Avg on track handle per race card , $2.72 million. Average All sources daily handle ....$87 million. Average starters per race 14.1
http://japanracing.jp/_statistics/2017/s01.html
Now, Japan has casinos. Japanese people love to wager. They can wager on power boat racing. There are Pachinko machines everywhere. The reason i mention this is Japanese people have tons of gaming or gambling opportunities. So that excuse used by many here in the US doesn't wash.
So someone please explain how it is that a country with on quarter the land mass and one half the population can get 14 horses to start each race....AND get more people to be more money on the product.
And all track managements here can do is make excuses.
Could it be that we here in the US and Canada just aren't doing it right?

You need to lay out all the dynamics of the places you mention. The cost to own, the cost to run, the taxes, etc etc. Insurance, etc. Feed.

How many tracks run in China?

How many run in Australia?

[Afleet]

This is the model everywhere BUT North America.
Here we have extended meets. In the UK a race meeting may last two weeks.
In Japan and Hong Kong, meets last a few days.
In Japan and Hong Kong, every race program has Breeders Cup Day sized handles.
Avg on track attendance ( JRA figures for 2017)
22, 400. Avg on track handle per race card , $2.72 million. Average All sources daily handle ....$87 million. Average starters per race 14.1
http://japanracing.jp/_statistics/2017/s01.html
Now, Japan has casinos. Japanese people love to wager. They can wager on power boat racing. There are Pachinko machines everywhere. The reason i mention this is Japanese people have tons of gaming or gambling opportunities. So that excuse used by many here in the US doesn't wash.
So someone please explain how it is that a country with on quarter the land mass and one half the population can get 14 horses to start each race....AND get more people to be more money on the product.
And all track managements here can do is make excuses.
Could it be that we here in the US and Canada just aren't doing it right?

Sha Tin only runs for a few days?

[dilanesp]

Sha Tin only runs for a few days?

When I was in Hong Kong, racing was twice a week, year round, either at ST or Happy Valley.

[Nitro]

When I was in Hong Kong, racing was twice a week, year round, either at ST or Happy Valley.

As I mentioned, Hong Kong uses 2 Tracks, Sha Tin (normally on the weekends) and Happy Valley (normally on Wed).
They run their meets from Sept to July (10 months) and provide over 800 races (95% on the Turf).
There are no claiming or Allowance races. They have 5 basic Classes as well as GR Stakes and the very occasional Griffin (Maiden) race.
The majority of their races are handicaps with horses carrying anywhere from 112# to !34# (in the same race).

A major factor for qualifying a horse to actually being permitted to run is to prove its capability in the racing trials they hold continually on dark days.

Another major difference between HKJC and other racing jurisdictions around the world is that they provide horse races strictly for the purpose of racing. They're not concerned about breeding at all.

[JohnGalt1]

Two weeks ago I responded to this thread and after writing a billion, (maybe hundreds of) words something blipped and lost the whole response. I will break this into a few parts in case it happens again.

***************


My favorite threads are about handicapping. I bet races to win money, I don't care who will be horse of the year. And I don't like thread where rudeness and incivility are displayed.

*******************


This may help some here with turf races. Where I have had some success with dirt races, my turf results were lackluster.

My results betting turf races has improved substantially in the last few years. My results are much greater betting grass races than dirt races.

Part of me hopes no one reads this, but I have picked up and learned from many book authors and some of you, and have incorporated many valid ideas into my handicapping. Methods from books, here and from other sources that don't work, I don't use.


Maybe you'll find something useful from my ramblings.

I retired 12/31/17 so winning is more important, if that's possible, than before.

The thread that vanished was my 5 day betting record at Kentucky Downs.

I will list only my win bets and record how they did. If I bet one horse it was $20/40 WP or $25 on two horses. I will not list the place on horses I bet WP.


The results---------

[JohnGalt1]

When I bet 2 horses to win the odds must warrant betting two. The odds should total 8 or more. 3-1 and 5-1, or 1-1 and 8-1, etc.

Sept 1---

Race 2---2 win--- 12.20
Race 3---1 wp--- 4.20
Race 5---1 wp--- 0
Race 7---2 wp--- 5.00

-$118.5

Sept 6---

Race 2--- 1 wp--- 0
Race 3--- 2 win--- 50.60
Race 5--- 1 wp--- 17.40
Race 7--- 1 wp--- 6.40
Race 8--- 2 win--- 0
Race 9--- 2 win--- 7.80
Race 10-- 1 wp---9.40


+$12,468.35


Sept 8


Race 6--- 1 wp--- 0 horse clipped heels, fell
Race 8--- 2 win--- 0

-$138.00

Sept 12

Race 5--- 2 win--- 3.60
Race 6--- 2 win--- 14.60
Race 7--- 1 wp--- 8.80
Race10--2 win--- 0

+$382.30


Sept 13---


Race 4--- 2 win---9.00
Race 5--- 2 win--- 0
Race 6--- 2 win--- 0
Race 7--- 2 win--- 5.40
Race 8--- 2 win--- 8.80
Race 10-- 1 wp--- 8.00

-$110.80

Summery and final comments next---

[JohnGalt1]

Before this meet I was +4,157.85.

Now am +16,757.70 betting Kentucky Downs life time.

I made win bets in 23 races and 15 horses won. Not all bets paid well, but a win is better than a loss. The $3.60 and $5.40 winners when I bet two horses meant the other bets were on much higher odds horses forcing me to eat chalk.


On 9/6 I cancelled a win bet on and eventual $8.00 winner in the 4th race because if it won I would complete large pick 3.


*****************


Now to how I improved my turf handicapping---

I ignore all dirt races, except for conditioning. If the last recent race was on dirt, look at it like a great work out.

I make all my own figures.

The first is Performance Class Rating from William L. Scott. It is a numerical class rating I find it much more reliable than earnings per start. It measures how the horse did in all turf races, if rating for a turf race,) against how many he raced against, (the larger fields, the better rating,) and the class in which it raced.


If one does not want to o it themselves Bris includes it in their All Ways program.

They do it like Scott wrote, but I tweaked it by using only final finish and making my own class comparison chart. This tweak allows me to now compare foreign pps with ours when I make my ratings.


Second is a form rating consisting of recency, running line, and stretch call.

Third is my pace figure. I make Hambleton figures because they are simple and reliable. Most important--- I don't use variants for turf races since most tracks run so few per day, maybe only one route and sprint. With 2 exceptions, off tracks I subtract one tick per variant point above average of turf variants, and Gulfstream I subtract one tick per variant point above average which lets me know or suspect if it was from a race with the rails out.

Important point--- when picking a pace line to make my figure, I learned from Michael Pizzolla's "Handicapping Magic" book to use all pace lines to find the best, most representative line.


Where I rely more on recent lines for dirt races, I used to usually use the most recent race for turf races to make a pace figure which led to many losses.


My bets generally are any horse that is in the top 3 PCR and Total Pace Rating with no form defects.


If a marathon--over 1 1/14 -- I don't make speed/pace ratings and rely on PCR, form and marathon distance breeding.


Even though it takes me longer to handicap turf races, because I have to look up breeding for horses with 2 or fewer turf races, and make multiple pace ratings to find the "best" I now have confidence when I handicap turf races.

I hope you find at least one useful nugget here.

[Suff]

I watched KD, bet a few. Odd course shape. Purses Crazy. It looked like Fair racing. Unorthodox camera angles. As a novelty it was worthy.

Perfect Kind. $235,000 2YO F
Finished nowhere in the 5th at Belmont today. 10/8/18
The lukewarm 7/2 favorite.
Maiden allowance 75K going a mile and 16th. Turf/Good.


I saw the KD race in the PP's and my curiosity spiked to see that play out today in New York
These races at KD are hand timed? So the 22.06 2nd quarter at KD is something the numbers players are betting into? Its real?

And the timeform 77/75 . Big $ Syndicates are planning bets at Churchill off these numbers? The 57 beyer is solid? Bet that baby!:) Look at numbers:ThmbUp:.

And the 135K purse?, That's class you can bet into?

[cj]

I watched KD, bet a few. Odd course shape. Purses Crazy. It looked like Fair racing. Unorthodox camera angles. As a novelty it was worthy.

Perfect Kind. $235,000 2YO F
Finished nowhere in the 5th at Belmont today. 10/8/18
The lukewarm 7/2 favorite.
Maiden allowance 75K going a mile and 16th. Turf/Good.


I saw the KD race in the PP's and my curiosity spiked to see that play out today in New York
These races at KD are hand timed? So the 22.06 2nd quarter at KD is something the numbers players are betting into? Its real?

And the timeform 77/75 . Big $ Syndicates are planning bets at Churchill off these numbers? The 57 beyer is solid? Bet that baby!:) Look at numbers:ThmbUp:.

And the 135K purse?, That's class you can bet into?

Use the fractional times from KD at your own risk. They are hand timed and it is basically an impossible task. I don't make pace figures for that track as I think it would be highly inaccurate and misleading.

That said, I've done well the last few years betting horses coming out of Kentucky Downs races. Theory is it gives the horses a conditioning edge. Whether that is the reason or not, it is working and has continued to work this year. Laurel and Belmont had a few stakes winners out of KD races this weekend, and Keeneland had at least one good priced winner that I remember.

[Suff]

Use the fractional times from KD at your own risk. They are hand timed and it is basically an impossible task. I don't make pace figures for that track as I think it would be highly inaccurate and misleading.

That said, I've done well the last few years betting horses coming out of Kentucky Downs races. Theory is it gives the horses a conditioning edge. Whether that is the reason or not, it is working and has continued to work this year. Laurel and Belmont had a few stakes winners out of KD races this weekend, and Keeneland had at least one good priced winner that I remember.

Hi Cj. I'm not trying to shine or shade on you at all. I hope you know that.

On talking horses yesterday the subject came up that the Belmont spring meet beyers were underweighted. Some players were adding to those selectively.

Then we had the The Great Saratoga Flood of 2018.

So my general point is that the entire 2018 is a high wire act when relying on numbers.

My very first take away from the very first race I saw at KD was "Uh-oh"...another edge to the sharks. I can't keep up.

[dilanesp]

Hi Cj. I'm not trying to shine or shade on you at all. I hope you know that.

On talking horses yesterday the subject came up that the Belmont spring meet beyers were underweighted. Some players were adding to those selectively.

Then we had the The Great Saratoga Flood of 2018.

So my general point is that the entire 2018 is a high wire act when relying on numbers.

My very first take away from the very first race I saw at KD was "Uh-oh"...another edge to the sharks. I can't keep up.

One thing to remember is that numbers are always just one component of a handicapping strategy. If I watch a race and am visually impressed with a horse's effort, I don't give a hoot about the number. I would think this is especially important in the scenarios you are talking about.

[Suff]

One thing to remember is that numbers are always just one component of a handicapping strategy. If I watch a race and am visually impressed with a horse's effort, I don't give a hoot about the number. I would think this is especially important in the scenarios you are talking about.

I use a combination of things to land on horses. My bankroll can be a big driver , my intuition, my reason and logic... It comes and goes what I use and how I weight them. I always bet the horses that I see. Without exception or regret.

[Suff]

And my personal opinion on KD is that its not helpful to me. If its good for racing , I am not smart enough to know? My Uniformed guess is No.

Its gets a lot of horses to Kentucky at the right time of the year.
Its strengthens the States stranglehold on Stallions and Mares now and forever.

That's good. What I get is larger fields? Fields with a 2 YO filly who runs a 22.06 on Grass. Has a Grade 1 Turf race this year run a 2nd quarter 22 anything? Maybe.. so don't correct me, but scant few. They are doing that at KD for 90 cents on the dollar.

[Thomas Roulston]

I liked KD better when they ran in the spring (late '70s/early '80s, as the Dueling Grounds).

And why not do both - one meeting in the spring and one in the late summer/early autumn?

[dilanesp]

I liked KD better when they ran in the spring (late '70s/early '80s, as the Dueling Grounds).

And why not do both - one meeting in the spring and one in the late summer/early autumn?

Boutique tracks have to be careful about killing the golden goose.

Especially since they have to convince horsemen to ship their horses there from other spots where they are stabled and running.

[cj]

Boutique tracks have to be careful about killing the golden goose.

Especially since they have to convince horsemen to ship their horses there from other spots where they are stabled and running.

They've been trying to get more dates but the Kentucky Racing Commission caters to Keeneland and Churchill, and they don't want Kentucky Downs getting more days.