So I asked Gary Stevens a question on twitter and his answer didn't surprise me

[Andy Asaro]

BTW anyone on twitter ought to follow Gary and his wife Angie. They are great.

I noticed that in a lot of his win he mentions the probable races shape and how that factored into his ride. So I asked the question.

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1036422282124488704


https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1036430359573889024

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1036609295297609728

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/GStevens_jockey/status/1036612756630167553

https://twitter.com/GStevens_jockey/status/1036603737295343616

[turfnsport]

That certainly does not surprise me. In fact, if you watch the races every day, it should be obvious to anyone. The depth of the jockey colonies at major tracks is drastically less than 15-20 years ago. And some of these guys don't do their homework.

Add the fact I am now watching each race on a 50 inch TV in HD compared to a 12 inch monitor in a box at the track 20 years ago. It is easy to see every mistake a jock makes now. That pretty much explains why my blood pressure is so much higher these days I guess.

[Andy Asaro]

That certainly does not surprise me. In fact, if you watch the races every day, it should be obvious to anyone. The depth of the jockey colonies at major tracks is drastically less than 15-20 years ago. And some of these guys don't do their homework.

Add the fact I am now watching each race on a 50 inch TV in HD compared to a 12 inch monitor in a box at the track 20 years ago. It is easy to see every mistake a jock makes now. That pretty much explains why my blood pressure is so much higher these days I guess.

I'd say the pace of the races the last 5 years have changed. The top jocks place their horses in the right spots early in the race.

[GMB@BP]

A friend of mine is a statistician in Florida and he is into golf and noticed there was not any real analytics in that sport about 7-8 years ago so he took up the charge and started putting some together. He now consults for a solid group of tour pros, writes for Golf Digest and is on the The Golf Channel.

I always thought it would be beneficial for both an agent and a rider to have a professional player who could provide them really good information about race shapes, trips, etc on horses in the field rather than trying to digest it all themselves, in an area, frankly that they are not experts in. Given the real money that is at stake seems like a small investment.

[turfnsport]

A friend of mine is a statistician in Florida and he is into golf and noticed there was not any real analytics in that sport about 7-8 years ago so he took up the charge and started putting some together. He now consults for a solid group of tour pros, writes for Golf Digest and is on the The Golf Channel.

I always thought it would be beneficial for both an agent and a rider to have a professional player who could provide them really good information about race shapes, trips, etc on horses in the field rather than trying to digest it all themselves, in an area, frankly that they are not experts in. Given the real money that is at stake seems like a small investment.

Back in the day I used to have one jockey agent that would stop by my box and pick my brain. (This was before video was so readily available). I was good friends with several other jockey agents (one still a very successful one) and they were not particularly good handicappers and they did not bet. When we were out after the races we rarely if ever talked shop. I was always amazed at how good they were at their jobs. I had the opportunity to take a leading jockey in MD and could have been taught by the best, but I knew there was no way I was getting up that early every morning.

I think today most are good handicappers and there is just so much info out there, the job is probably a lot easier.

[Tom]

I'd say the pace of the races the last 5 years have changed. The top jocks place their horses in the right spots early in the race.

You don't watch a lot of NYRA races, huh?
Home of the Boston Stranglers.:D

[Andy Asaro]

You don't watch a lot of NYRA races, huh?
Home of the Boston Stranglers.:D

Totally agree that it happens there more often than anywhere IMO

[cj]

Totally agree that it happens there more often than anywhere IMO

A lot of that has to do with the guy that controls the best horses there IMO, and often times more than one in the same race.

I think he instructs riders to go slow and save ground. Therefore, the best horses are not part of the pace. Longer priced horses make the front and of course are going to slow it down as much as possible trying to beat the favorites.

I'm not all that sure it is the best strategy. They go too slow many times and just make it a 200 yard dash to the wire where they don't have much of a head start over better horses.

[Andy Asaro]

A lot of that has to do with the guy that controls the best horses there IMO, and often times more than one in the same race.

I think he instructs riders to go slow and save ground. Therefore, the best horses are not part of the pace. Longer priced horses make the front and of course are going to slow it down as much as possible trying to beat the favorites.

I'm not all that sure it is the best strategy. They go too slow many times and just make it a 200 yard dash to the wire where they don't have much of a head start over better horses.

Makes sense to me.

[AndyC]

A friend of mine is a statistician in Florida and he is into golf and noticed there was not any real analytics in that sport about 7-8 years ago so he took up the charge and started putting some together. He now consults for a solid group of tour pros, writes for Golf Digest and is on the The Golf Channel.

I always thought it would be beneficial for both an agent and a rider to have a professional player who could provide them really good information about race shapes, trips, etc on horses in the field rather than trying to digest it all themselves, in an area, frankly that they are not experts in. Given the real money that is at stake seems like a small investment.

Richie Hunt?

[GMB@BP]

Richie Hunt?

yes, I have been friends with him for quite a while when we got back into golf about the same time during the recession, we are both TGM/MORAD students.

[v j stauffer]

Back in the day I used to have one jockey agent that would stop by my box and pick my brain. (This was before video was so readily available). I was good friends with several other jockey agents (one still a very successful one) and they were not particularly good handicappers and they did not bet. When we were out after the races we rarely if ever talked shop. I was always amazed at how good they were at their jobs. I had the opportunity to take a leading jockey in MD and could have been taught by the best, but I knew there was no way I was getting up that early every morning.

I think today most are good handicappers and there is just so much info out there, the job is probably a lot easier.

When I hustled I was surprised how rarely actual nuts and bolts handicapping came into play.

There were a few times I'd have to make choice based soley on who I thought would win. But not that often.

[classhandicapper]

I'm not all that sure it is the best strategy. They go too slow many times and just make it a 200 yard dash to the wire where they don't have much of a head start over better horses.

Personally, I think there's a sweet spot in slow paced races where if you go a 1/5th or 2/5ths faster and open up an extra length or two, that's better than the energy you save by backing it down further. But I am talking about very slow paces.

[cj]

Personally, I think there's a sweet spot in slow paced races where if you go a 1/5th or 2/5ths faster and open up an extra length or two, that's better than the energy you save by backing it down further. But I am talking about very slow paces.

I'm going to redboard, something I hope I rarely do...I bet the winner of the Baruch because I had a feeling this exact situation was going to play out. Voodoo Song was so much lone speed I knew the rider would throttle him back and keep the others in shouting distance, and they were 100% to outfinish him in that scenario. I bet the winner and hit the exact playing a key box with him and three others, not including the heavy chalk.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I think the most useful skill a jockey can have is the "clock in his head." When the trainer says, run a :49 half, I want someone who can do it.

[classhandicapper]

I'm going to redboard, something I hope I rarely do...I bet the winner of the Baruch because I had a feeling this exact situation was going to play out. Voodoo Song was so much lone speed I knew the rider would throttle him back and keep the others in shouting distance, and they were 100% to outfinish him in that scenario. I bet the winner and hit the exact playing a key box with him and three others, not including the heavy chalk.

Nice!

[GMB@BP]

Letting that speed out on the turf is tough, I feel better about it in socal than NY...either way dont take away what a horse does best and for Vodoo Song that is running others into the ground with real fractions.

[turfnsport]

When I hustled I was surprised how rarely actual nuts and bolts handicapping came into play.

There were a few times I'd have to make choice based soley on who I thought would win. But not that often.

Correct..That surprised me at first.

Sometimes on upcoming stakes I'd chime in who I thought would win and they would look at me like I was nuts. They usually picked the right ones.

[AltonKelsey]

Good call betting against Voodoo, but I don't think the ride had anything to do with it.



He didn't bring his A game today. Early part of the race was perfect, 4L lead soft fractions, when asked for more at the 1/2 , didn't really respond, so they got to him.



No ride wins today.

[Zaf]

His last race was very intense, probably took something out of him.

Z

[cj]

Good call betting against Voodoo, but I don't think the ride had anything to do with it.



He didn't bring his A game today. Early part of the race was perfect, 4L lead soft fractions, when asked for more at the 1/2 , didn't really respond, so they got to him.



No ride wins today.

Probably right, but I don't second guess myself when I win. Game is tough enough as it is.

To the broader point, true speed horses like him run best when they go fast early on turf. I hate that ride whether it mattered today or not.

[AltonKelsey]

I get it, but this horse is generally not a run off, can you imagine the stink if he opened up 10 L and folded , which is what he would have had to do to run 'fast'


Wasn't gonna happen , and yes, better to not second guess the win :rolleyes:

[cj]

I get it, but this horse is generally not a run off, can you imagine the stink if he opened up 10 L and folded , which is what he would have had to do to run 'fast'

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

[classhandicapper]

Back to the original point of the thread, every experience I've had with Eric Cancel has been positive. He looks at the PPs and comes to the paddock prepared. He gives 100% whether he's trying to get a horse home for the win or trying to get 4th instead of 5th. He follows instructions. He's willing to go into tight holes and difficult positions to gain an advantage. He doesn't win a lot of races yet, but imo if he's given a chance by the top owners and trainers and gets better horses to ride, I think he's going to be very successful eventually.

[bobphilo]

I'm going to redboard, something I hope I rarely do...I bet the winner of the Baruch because I had a feeling this exact situation was going to play out. Voodoo Song was so much lone speed I knew the rider would throttle him back and keep the others in shouting distance, and they were 100% to outfinish him in that scenario. I bet the winner and hit the exact playing a key box with him and three others, not including the heavy chalk.

That's just the situation in human track. Those with speed want a slower pace keeping them in contact with the front runners who they can outkick late. The front runners want a fast pace to take the sting out of the closesrs. This is the opposite of most dirt horse races where the front runners have a tendency to burn themselves out early and do better when they can slow the early pace.

[classhandicapper]

There's a tricky balance between going fast enough enough to burn out your competitors and going so fast you burn yourself out too. You want to go fast but stay in your comfort zone and hope that your competitors try to stay with you and take themselves out of their own comfort zone doing it.

[TonyK@HSH]

Back to the original point of the thread, every experience I've had with Eric Cancel has been positive. He looks at the PPs and comes to the paddock prepared. He gives 100% whether he's trying to get a horse home for the win or trying to get 4th instead of 5th. He follows instructions. He's willing to go into tight holes and difficult positions to gain an advantage. He doesn't win a lot of races yet, but imo if he's given a chance by the top owners and trainers and gets better horses to ride, I think he's going to be very successful eventually.

There is the issue- 'He follows instructions'. Many times jocks take the heat for questionable rides when they ARE simply following instructions. This business has changed over the past 20 years, no days owners want to be trainers and trainers want to be jocks. Trainers are often constrained on where to place horses and jocks are often constrained with riding instructions

TonyK

[pandy]

His last race was very intense, probably took something out of him.

Z

I expected Voodoo to bounce, but I had the two horse, who looked set for a perfect trip, got a perfect trip and took the lead, but was out-kicked.

[classhandicapper]

There is the issue- 'He follows instructions'. Many times jocks take the heat for questionable rides when they ARE simply following instructions. This business has changed over the past 20 years, no days owners want to be trainers and trainers want to be jocks. Trainers are often constrained on where to place horses and jocks are often constrained with riding instructions

The ideal situation probably depends on the rider and the trainer.

If the rider comes to the paddock and the first things he says is, "It looks like there's a lot of speed in this race" or "The inside paths seem a little deeper today", the trainer probably doesn't have to tell him much.

If the rider doesn't bother reading the PPs or watching the races, maybe he needs to be prepared a little better.

If this is one of the first times he's ridden the horse maybe he can just tell him things like "He hates to be inside horses" or "we are trying to teach him to relax off horses" etc..

If the trainer isn't prepared, then maybe he shouldn't say much.

[v j stauffer]

Correct..That surprised me at first.

Sometimes on upcoming stakes I'd chime in who I thought would win and they would look at me like I was nuts. They usually picked the right ones.

During the entire time I worked for Rosario only once did he overrule a decision I made.

Mark Glatt took Rosario aside and really put on a full court press.

Talked him into a filly he was running in a $100,000 2yo filly Stakes at Hollywood Park.

I had already given the call to Kelly Breen to ride a filly named Bickersons who we had just ridden going long in the Breeders' Cup Juv. Fillies. I thought the turn back to 7/8th's would be perfect for her.

I called Breen and asked off. He was totally cool. He put Joe Talamo on his filly.

Bickersons won the race by about 7 widening lengths.

After the races Joel gave me a check for $1500 which would have been my cut had we stayed put. Extremely classy move.

Along with the check came his promise to let me make all decisions from that point forward.

I didn't keep the $$$. All for one, one for all.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/GStevens_jockey/status/1038447440901226496