Jobs? What jobs?

[JustRalph]

https://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/08/28/aluminum-mill-to-bring-550-jobs-back-to-kentucky-town-crippled-by-free-trade/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook

If any place needed it......this place does. NEast KY needs the work

[Inner Dirt]

Interesting to me as I try to buy domestic aluminum whenever I can, unless it is a place that sells recycled junk they probably mix with Chinese ingots like Service Center Metals of Virginia. On the other hand I do not trust your source article as it says:


Likewise, the Ashland aluminum mill will be the world’s most technologically advanced plant in the world and will have a production line that stretches 104 inches long. This will make it the widest aluminum mill in all of North America.

A 104 inch long production line???That is less than 9 feet for those than aren't good at math.

[Tom]

Maybe the mean wide - they say both.

[GaryG]

In June there was this one in Georgetown, SC. It is a poor town on the coast between Myrtle Beach and Charleston:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/06/25/sanjeev-guptas-gfg-reopens-mothballed-us-steel-plant-beat-tariffs/

[highnote]

Maybe the mean wide - they say both.

The must mean wide. 109 inches wide would be impressive. That would take a big roller mill. 9 foot coils of aluminum. I suppose they are in KY because they are close to Detroit and other auto mfg plants in the area.

I would have thought they could have re-opened an old mill in the rustbelt like Cleveland or Youngstown rather build a brand new one. But sometimes new is better.

[JustRalph]

This will be good for Ohio too

[highnote]

This will be good for Ohio too

I hope so. They need it.

[Hexplosive]

This will be good for Ohio too

Yes, I know by my work in Fairfield, Oh literally nothin has been built in those vacant lots for the past 9 years. Now they built two shipping and receiving warehouses and a 3rd big ass building little bit down the road next to UDF.. Odd spot if you ask me.. But that one is to early in development to figure out what it is being built.. but that's gunna add a bunch of jobs those 2 buildings has 24 trailer docks looks like its gunna be busy..

[JustRalph]

Yes, I know by my work in Fairfield, Oh literally nothin has been built in those vacant lots for the past 9 years. Now they built two shipping and receiving warehouses and a 3rd big ass building little bit down the road next to UDF.. Odd spot if you ask me.. But that one is to early in development to figure out what it is being built.. but that's gunna add a bunch of jobs those 2 buildings has 24 trailer docks looks like its gunna be busy..

Fairfield Ohio? Dindnt they get killed when Fedex ran out in Clinton county? Lots of Fairfielders worked over there didn’t they?

[pandy]

I was thinking about Tom and Ralph today, they'll get a kick out of this, as will some others.

Bette Midler hates Trump and posted something on Facebook about how it will take us twenty years to overcome the damage he's doing.

And a bunch of liberals chimed in, in agreement, of course.

I rarely get involved in the threads of people I don't know, but just to piss them off, I wrote..."Hmmm, I don't know, you rarely hear ISIS being mentioned, I think we're doing well with terrorism, the economy is strong, wages are up, unemployment is low, at least there are no new nuclear tests in N. Korea...it seems to me that things are pretty good."

Naturally I got a lot of "you're an idiot" responses, but what surprised me, a lot of people actually told me that I was wrong and that I should get "better information". I guess that means from MSNBC.

Anyway, I asked what I was wrong about, isn't the economy strong? Many people came in and said, No, it isn't! And, they also said, unemployment is actually up, and ISIS is stronger than ever! And, they said N. Korea is still testing. I posted a link from USA Today showing that the last test was a year ago. I posted a link from a liberal website with the headline "ISIS defeated"...

None of this mattered, of course.

And they said this while chastising me for not being well informed! LOL

I said, "Hey, I worked on Wall. St. and I own a business, I think I know when the economy is good, and when the stock market is making new highs, and unemployment is at record lows, the economy is good."

[Hexplosive]

Fairfield Ohio? Dindnt they get killed when Fedex ran out in Clinton county? Lots of Fairfielders worked over there didn’t they?

I have no idea to be honest I can defiently see it tho..Alot of those places love to hire outsiders and not people from the city they are located in.. probably for tax reasons I'm sure! :lol:

[Burls]

Questions:
1) How much more will the American companies that manufacture things out of aluminum have to pay for their raw materials as a result of the 10% tariff on aluminum imported into America?

Obviously, this Braidy Industries plant was unable to produce aluminum at a competitive price or it wouldn't have been shut down.
The 10% tariff is needed to subsidize such a non-competitive plant.

Whether they get their aluminum from foreign aluminum manufacturers with a 10% tariff tacked on, or from this Braidy Industries plant that can't produce aluminum at a competitive price, American companies that manufacture things out of aluminum will be paying more for it.

This is a problem.

As a result of this increase in their manufacturing costs, American companies that manufacture things out of aluminum will have to raise the prices of their finished products.
So individuals and companies that buy such products in America will be paying more for them.
As a result, domestic sales of such items will go down.

Let's all give Donny Boy a hearty thanks for that!
He's made finished aluminum products more expensive for everyone in America.
Yay!

But the fun is not over yet.

Now we need to consider:
2) How severely will the American companies that manufacture things out of aluminum and export them be affected by the reciprocal 10% tariffs other countries will put on American goods in response to the American tariffs?

Remember:

These finished aluminum products will already be more expensive because of the increase in manufacturing costs.
When you add a 10% tariff to that, these finished aluminum products will be substantially more expensive for foreign buyers once they are exported.
As a result, foreign sales of such items will also go down.

With both foreign and domestic sales of their finished aluminum products declining, American companies that manufacture things out of aluminum will have to start LAYING PEOPLE OFF and CLOSING PLANTS.

But wait - there's more.

Since the manufacture of these finished aluminum products is more labor intensive than manufacturing the raw materials, the number of people laid off from American companies that manufacture things out of aluminum will be
SUBSTANTIALLY LARGER
than the number of people who get aluminum manufacturing jobs as a result of implementing the 10% tariff.

So there you have it.

Way to go, Donny Boy!
Not only will your 10% tariff on imported aluminum make finished aluminum products more expensive for everyone in America.
They will also INCREASE the number of people without jobs in America.

This is just BASIC, BASIC economics that any business leader should be keenly aware of.
But not Donny Boy.
He is above all that.

Hurrah for Donny Boy!!
Let's give that man a 92 million dollar parade!

[elysiantraveller]

...

There is absolutely zero point debating economics on here.

[Burls]

There is absolutely zero point debating economics on here.
Why?
I've only summarized the BASIC ECONOMIC FACTS that every country in the modern world has been aware of since the end of the nineteenth Century.

[highnote]

The plant operators announced their plan in April of 2017. I wonder if they anticipated the Trump tariffs?

Steel and aluminum manufacturers have wanted tariffs for years.

Manufacturers who use steel and aluminum in their products do not want tariffs because it will cause them to be less competitive.

To me, it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

The contractors will make a lot by building the plant, though.

Any idea who is doing the construction?

[Burls]

The contractors will make a lot by building the plant, though.

Any idea who is doing the construction?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the contract went to Kushner Construction, a division of Kushner Companies LLC.
The process was a sealed bid arrangement.

[highnote]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the contract went to Kushner Construction, a division of Kushner Companies LLC.
The process was a sealed bid arrangement.

If that is true, all I can say is :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::pound::pound::pound:

[elysiantraveller]

Why?
I've only summarized the BASIC ECONOMIC FACTS that every country in the modern world has been aware of since the end of the nineteenth Century.

They don't apply in Trump world.

[Tom]

And they said this while chastising me for not being well
informed! LOL

Pandy, try this.......:lol:

[Tom]

Questions:
1) How much more will the American companies that manufacture things out of aluminum have to pay for their raw materials as a result of the 10% tariff on aluminum imported into America?

Well, they are build a brand new mill with maybe the widest capability in NA, so I am guessing the old one going out of business is not a factor here. You can make money in new modern plant where you could not in an older one with 1970s technology.

And when I was buying aluminum, or any metals, I only bought from USA mills. Period. NEVER from overseas. Not for any reason.
I specified it on the PO. And I sent out a list of approved US mills that could be used.

So your long post mocking the building of the new plant seems pretty much like nya nya nya nya to me. A lot of investigation went into this decision and some kind on the internet knows better. :pound:

NOT relying on foreign metals is a good thing.

[Tom]

Why?
I've only summarized the BASIC ECONOMIC FACTS that every country in the modern world has been aware of since the end of the nineteenth Century.

Get that out of Economics for Dummies did you?

The aluminum mill, known as Braidy Atlas, will employ about 550 workers and is set for its first production in a just a couple years, where it will be the world’s lowest cost aluminum plant, according to Kentucky Today. Already, Braidy Atlas executives say their first seven years of aluminum production are sold out

550 jobs for Americans
Lowest cost aluminum plant = efficiency
7 years of production already sold

Gawd! someone stop this madness!
You whiners are a joke.
Get ready to choke on the mid terms.
THIS is the ONLY stuff voters give a shot about.

As you will find out.....AGAIN!:pound::pound::pound:

[highnote]

Why?
I've only summarized the BASIC ECONOMIC FACTS that every country in the modern world has been aware of since the end of the nineteenth Century.

According to some research I did this evening:

The Trump admin caved to political pressure from Alcoa. Canada and Mexico will be exempt from the 10% tax on aluminum that the U.S. imports from them. 63% of U.S. aluminum imports come from Canada.

Bauxite is the ore used to produce aluminum. Even if U.S. smelters were operating at 100% capacity the majority of aluminum used in the U.S. would still need to be imported from Canada.

The Trump admin has created a process whereby companies that use aluminum can apply for an exclusion from the tariffs. The Trump administration will then decide which companies have to pay the tariffs and which do not.

There will be nothing political in those decisions. :D :liar:

[elysiantraveller]

This has been going on with the Commerce Departments review process.

Basically arbitrarily deciding who should and shouldn't pay taxes.

Lost by most Trumpbots is that tariffs are simply a consumption tax charged to Americans.

[fast4522]

This has been going on with the Commerce Departments review process.

Basically arbitrarily deciding who should and shouldn't pay taxes.

Lost by most Trumpbots is that tariffs are simply a consumption tax charged to Americans.

Bingo Now you get it, I said consumption tax here 3 or 4 times here previously.

You want to pay 70K for that car, you deserve to pay 90K
No big deal to me because I will escape that tax.
You get it now, I want you to pay instead of me.
You love China and its cheep shit, we got some special sauce for you ET.

[highnote]

550 jobs for Americans
Lowest cost aluminum plant = efficiency
7 years of production already sold


This is probably reasonably true. They say the average wage will be $38/hour or $70,000 per year.

Something tells me the majority of people will make far less than $38/hr and a small number will make substantially more.

The median wage is probably closer to 30k than to 70k. But 30k is better than welfare and 30k can go a lot further in KY than NYC.

Alcoa complained that the 10% tariff would cost them $14 million per month. So they had a big incentive to convince the Trump admin to exempt Canada and Mexico from the tariffs on aluminum.

Would the KY plant be built if Canada and Mexico had to pay the 10% tariff?

[ReplayRandall]

You love China and its cheep shit, we got some special sauce for you ET.


Special sauce?.....Dimwit sum dipshit sauce, I do believe that's it...:faint:

[fast4522]

Special sauce?.....Dimwit sum dipshit sauce, I do believe that's it...:faint:

Exactly, where did you grow up RR. Not where you hail from now but the first 20 years.

[elysiantraveller]

Bingo Now you get it, I said consumption tax here 3 or 4 times here previously.

You want to pay 70K for that car, you deserve to pay 90K
No big deal to me because I will escape that tax.
You get it now, I want you to pay instead of me.
You love China and its cheep shit, we got some special sauce for you ET.

The speed at which stuff flies over your head is astounding.

I'm building a new deer blind and need nails. Unfortunately the largest American nail manufacturer is shutting down due to Trump's steel tariffs.

Pity they didn't get a Commerce Department exemption.

[fast4522]

The speed at which stuff flies over your head is astounding.

I'm building a new deer blind and need nails. Unfortunately the largest American nail manufacturer is shutting down due to Trump's steel tariffs.

That's cool, I am expecting you to AD yourself into the deer blind.
No one is buying your shit, believe it.

[elysiantraveller]

That's cool, I am expecting you to AD yourself into the deer blind.
No one is buying your shit, believe it.

AD?

What part don't you buy exactly? Other than nails from the Missouri nail factory?

[ReplayRandall]

Exactly, where did you grow up RR. Not where you hail from now but the first 20 years.
Everywhere in the world....We were a military family.

[fast4522]

AD?

JR is a former LEO, ask him for chuckles.
That is a hint to what flew over your head brightside.

[chrisl]

The speed at which stuff flies over your head is astounding.

I'm building a new deer blind and need nails. Unfortunately the largest American nail manufacturer is shutting down due to Trump's steel tariffs.

Pity they didn't get a Commerce Department exemption.

It seems to me you have no idea about idea about a deer blind. If this will stop you....buy your meat from the store..:lol::lol::lol:

[incoming]

I shall mention the tradeoffs that we Americans benefit from......

*Industries moving back from overseas
*New plants and retooling of closed plant being opened
*Family, friends and neighbors with better paying and more jobs
*Lower tariffs on exported goods, therefore smaller trade deficits
*Higher GDP's therefore lower deficits.
*President Trump being an excellent businessman, I expect to see a balanced budget during his tenure. If he can get a cooperating Congress. :popcorn::popcorn:

[elysiantraveller]

JR is a former LEO, ask him for chuckles.
That is a hint to what flew over your head brightside.

Oh accidental death...

My aren't we petty.

Sorry using code to wish death on a forum member didn't come immediately to mind.... :rolleyes:

Cheers!

[elysiantraveller]

It seems to me you have no idea about idea about a deer blind. If this will stop you....buy your meat from the store..:lol::lol::lol:

My posting history on the subjects of hunting and firearms... as well as the few photos I've thrown up might suggest otherwise.

HAGD!

[fast4522]

Oh accidental death...

My aren't we petty.

Sorry using code to wish death on a forum member didn't come immediately to mind.... :rolleyes:

Cheers!

Accidental discharge, do you even own a gun?
How could you be so stupid to not know what a AD is?
You have death wishes on the brain, stick to writing bad loans.

[elysiantraveller]

Accidental discharge, do you even own a gun?
How could you be so stupid to not know what a AD is?
You have death wishes on the brain, stick to writing bad loans.

Yawn...

How did we get on this subject again?

Oh yeah... you didn't have a comeback.

[ReplayRandall]

Yawn...

How did we get on this subject again?

Oh yeah... you didn't have a comeback.


New avatar?....What do we have there? Russian sniper?

[elysiantraveller]

New avatar?....What do we have there?

Me.

Trail cam took some good photos of me and the big brown guy walking the property line last year.

Was actually gonna switch to it awhile ago but forgot.

[fast4522]

Bullshit, your a fake. Every single gun person I know over the years knows exactly what AD means, NO EXCEPTIONS. You and your AR-15 are some story out of a magazine. Hey highnote here is your boy.

[elysiantraveller]

Bullshit, your a fake. Every single gun person I know over the years knows exactly what AD means, NO EXCEPTIONS. You and your AR-15 are some story out of a magazine. Hey highnote here is your boy.

Same trail cam bro...

[fast4522]

Your a phony, now toast.

[elysiantraveller]

Your a phony, now toast.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Want some more of the dog? I got shit loads of him.

[Burls]

Well, they are build a brand new mill with maybe the widest capability in NA, so I am guessing the old one going out of business is not a factor here. You can make money in new modern plant where you could not in an older one with 1970s technology.

Then the decision to build the new mill had nothing to do with Trump's tariff implementation policy. Presumably such a mill would be competitive even without tariffs. So Trump should get no credit for this.

And when I was buying aluminum, or any metals, I only bought from USA mills. Period. NEVER from overseas. Not for any reason.
I specified it on the PO. And I sent out a list of approved US mills that could be used.
Maybe you could get away with this kind of thing years ago, but profit margins are much thinner and supply chains are much tighter these days. If your competitors are buying raw materials at the cheapest possible prices and you are paying a premium to buy American, you'd soon be out of business.

So your long post mocking the building of the new plant seems pretty much like nya nya nya nya to me.
This is just dumb, Tom, and you know it.
What does this comment even mean?
It's just gibberish.
What didn't you just admit you have nothing interesting or insightful to say about my "long post"?

A lot of investigation went into this decision and some kind on the internet knows better. :pound:.
That's a disappointing perspective to take on an issue like this.
A lot of investigation and careful consideration might have gone the decision to construct the new mill.
But I can assure you that NO investigation and NO careful consideration went into Dumbo Drumph's knee-jerk decision to start tariff wars.
And that's what I was criticizing.
Try to keep up here, Tom.

[Burls]

President Trump being an excellent businessman:lol::lol::lol::lol: :pound::pound::pound:

He is a lifelong grifter who has declared bankruptcy SIX times.

:bang::bang::bang: :pound::pound::pound:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2016/live-updates/general-election/real-time-fact-checking-and-analysis-of-the-first-presidential-debate/fact-check-has-trump-declared-bankruptcy-four-or-six-times/?utm_term=.031d110aacfe

[Burls]

Lost by most Trumpbots is that tariffs are simply a consumption tax charged to Americans.
Somebody gets it. :ThmbUp:

[Burls]

The Trump admin has created a process whereby companies that use aluminum can apply for an exclusion from the tariffs. The Trump administration will then decide which companies have to pay the tariffs and which do not.

There will be nothing political in those decisions. :D :liar:

It's a good thing that no one involved with Doofus Drumph would even think of engaging in dishonest activity just to line their pockets at the public's expense.

[Tom]

Then the decision to build the new mill had nothing to do with Trump's tariff implementation policy. Presumably such a mill would be competitive even without tariffs. So Trump should get no credit for this.


Maybe you could get away with this kind of thing years ago, but profit margins are much thinner and supply chains are much tighter these days. If your competitors are buying raw materials at the cheapest possible prices and you are paying a premium to buy American, you'd soon be out of business.


This is just dumb, Tom, and you know it.
What does this comment even mean?
It's just gibberish.
What didn't you just admit you have nothing interesting or insightful to say about my "long post"?


That's a disappointing perspective to take on an issue like this.
A lot of investigation and careful consideration might have gone the decision to construct the new mill.
But I can assure you that NO investigation and NO careful consideration went into Dumbo Drumph's knee-jerk decision to start tariff wars.
And that's what I was criticizing.
Try to keep up here, Tom.

The bottom line:
550 jobs for Americans
Lowest cost aluminum plant = efficiency
7 years of production already sold

[elysiantraveller]

Somebody gets it. :ThmbUp:

Its common knowledge to anyone who understands economics. Its all been discussed at length. I've linked the Milton Friedman video here multiple times and nobody who supports this action is willing to touch it. He actually talked specifically about the visible vs. invisible effects of tariffs.

The video below describes it succinctly even using the Steel industry and at the time the Evil Japanese.

Visible effects of tariffs:
Aluminum and Steel Mills opening.

Invisible effects of tariffs:
Missouri Nail company shuttering.
Electronics company in North Carolina.
Harley Davidson moving production overseas.
Agriculture bailouts.

https://youtu.be/59YWFR8lCEc

"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

- Ronald Reagan

[elysiantraveller]

It's a good thing that no one involved with Doofus Drumph would even think of engaging in dishonest activity just to line their pockets at the public's expense.

If you follow the Trump signs Tariffs thread you'll actually see the position of Trump supporters and how it morphs from:

Tariffs will bring the jobs back and free trade is bad.

Or:

Other countries tax their citizens for buying foreign made goods so we should too! (This is the dumbest one)

To:

Tariffs are a tool to create even freer trade.

The President's position has also morphed on the issue and is largely incoherent.

[Tom]

Mutual Admiration Society of PAceAdvantage is now in session!

:pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::pound:

You two whiners remind me of the knight in Monty Python.

"What are you going to do, BLEED on me?" :pound::pound::pound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiKvgvXt86g

[tucker6]

Its common knowledge to anyone who understands economics.
... and yet, here you are still posting about things you know nothing about. Every single economic ying has an economic yang. An endless number of yings and yangs I might add. Raising barriers certainly adds costs and can cost jobs, but there are MANY other things that are affected as well, both short and long term. I tend to be a long term thinker, so I see overall value in what Trump is doing from that perspective. You obviously take a shorter term approach (nothing wrong with that), but that doesn't mean either of us are wrong. Why you need to call me and others wrong when we simply don't believe in your personal value proposition is beyond me.

[jay68802]

They need to move to central Nebraska. I listen to 3 different radio stations and they have a total of 18 different companies advertising for full time openings.

[elysiantraveller]

... and yet, here you are still posting about things you know nothing about. Every single economic ying has an economic yang. An endless number of yings and yangs I might add. Raising barriers certainly adds costs and can cost jobs, but there are MANY other things that are affected as well, both short and long term. I tend to be a long term thinker, so I see overall value in what Trump is doing from that perspective. You obviously take a shorter term approach (nothing wrong with that), but that doesn't mean either of us are wrong. Why you need to call me and others wrong when we simply don't believe in your personal value proposition is beyond me.

Because no one has bothered to point out any long-term positives.

Completely free trade would accelerate not decelerate the trade deficit. In the interim Tariffs prop up industries that aren't competitive in the global market and eventually that shoe needs to drop.

Are the Steel and Aluminum Tariffs going to be permanent and never-ending?

If yes... then we are sending workers to a industry that isn't competitive on the global market at the expense of industries that are competitive.

If no... then we are funneling workers into jobs that the second the government stops protecting they will lose.

Government interference is bad... pointblankperiod.

You talk about the ying and yang... we've been saying this the entire time... but when a steel/aluminum mill opens up supporters of this policy are the first to chime in... that's short term thinking.

But when Harley Davidson decides to move, a nail factory lays off workers, and a electronics company shuts down... well to hell with them.

Meanwhile the cost of living in the United States goes up due to government policy.

[tucker6]

Meanwhile the cost of living in the United States goes up due to government policy.

Can I see that?

[incoming]

There has been three big changes in this economy that renders past analysis of tariffs obsolete.

*Tax cuts on both consumers and businesses....huge tax cuts
*Many business stifling regulations has been repealed with more to come
*USA is on the verge of becoming an energy producer instead of a
consumers
last but certainly not the least.....I believe in America and our citizens, regardless of what the New Democrat Party does to tear us apart. :headbanger::headbanger:

[elysiantraveller]

Can I see that?

We've cited examples of this from home prices (https://www.housingwire.com/articles/43690-nahb-lumber-tariffs-increasing-cost-of-homebuilding) to Coca-Cola (http://fortune.com/2018/07/28/coca-cola-raising-prices-trump-tariffs/) to cars (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-31/trump-metal-tariffs-will-raise-vehicle-prices-automakers-say) to kegs (https://www.marketplace.org/2018/03/16/business/last-american-keg-company-says-tariffs-come-unintended-consequences) to nails (https://www.npr.org/2018/07/22/631254971/missouri-nail-factory-manager-on-steel-tariffs) and these are only direct results of the steel and aluminum tariffs.

Nothing else.

[elysiantraveller]

There has been three big changes in this economy that renders past analysis of tariffs obsolete.

*Tax cuts on both consumers and businesses....huge tax cuts
*Many business stifling regulations has been repealed with more to come
*USA is on the verge of becoming an energy producer instead of a
consumers
last but certainly not the least.....I believe in America and our citizens, regardless of what the New Democrat Party does to tear us apart. :headbanger::headbanger:

None of these render past analysis of tariffs obsolete.

Tariffs are still bad.

[incoming]

None of these render past analysis of tariffs obsolete.

Tariffs are still bad.

Only if you don't recognize the end results.....if you stop the Trump Hate you might be able to see past your nose.

[elysiantraveller]

[/B]

Only if you don't recognize the end results.....if you stop the Trump Hate you might be able to see past your nose.

What end results?

Are steel and aluminum tariffs a negotiating tactic? Because I've seen no indication from the Administration they intend to remove them. In fact part of the reason for them was to fulfill a campaign promise.

You also draw up an interesting conundrum with your regulations comment (I agree with you on that btw) because...

Government Interference (Regulations) = Bad
Government Interference (Tariffs) = Good? :confused:

[tucker6]

We've cited examples of this from home prices (https://www.housingwire.com/articles/43690-nahb-lumber-tariffs-increasing-cost-of-homebuilding) to Coca-Cola (http://fortune.com/2018/07/28/coca-cola-raising-prices-trump-tariffs/) to cars (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-31/trump-metal-tariffs-will-raise-vehicle-prices-automakers-say) to kegs (https://www.marketplace.org/2018/03/16/business/last-american-keg-company-says-tariffs-come-unintended-consequences) to nails (https://www.npr.org/2018/07/22/631254971/missouri-nail-factory-manager-on-steel-tariffs) and these are only direct results of the steel and aluminum tariffs.

Nothing else.
So anecdotal evidence, but nothing from CPI or any other governmental agency that shows exactly how much extra the average Joe is paying. I thought you had something more concrete than that. I was expecting something along the lines of the average guy paying $200 more a month and wiping out the tax cuts. Nevermind.

[elysiantraveller]

So anecdotal evidence, but nothing from CPI or any other governmental agency that shows exactly how much extra the average Joe is paying. I thought you had something more concrete than that. I was expecting something along the lines of the average guy paying $200 more a month and wiping out the tax cuts. Nevermind.

Have you checked the data?

[tucker6]

Have you checked the data?

Yes, that's why I'm asking you. All you have is bits and pieces that support your viewpoint. I was simply asking for a neutral set of data.

[elysiantraveller]

Yes, that's why I'm asking you. All you have is bits and pieces that support your viewpoint. I was simply asking for a neutral set of data.

Overall CPI is up over last year. Metal and Metal products are outpacing the rest of the index. I honestly don't know how much of that is caused by tariffs. Other factors undoubtedly play a role like the tax cuts and spending bill which are pumping dollars into circulation.

I think you're making the mistake of using a macro tool to look at micro section of the economy. I wouldn't expect a tariff on $50-100 billion in goods to have that large of an overall impact on a $18 Trillion dollar economy.

As you've stated before these are just drops in the bucket. Using a tool like CPI isn't really the best idea in that situation.

If we applied tariffs to say $500 billion Chinese imports... then yes CPI may begin to gain some usefulness.

[highnote]

[QUOTE=tucker6;2363268Every single economic ying has an economic yang. An endless number of yings and yangs I might add.[/QUOTE]

The yings and yangs that cause differences of opinions are what makes a horse race and also what makes people post on paceadvantage.com.

If everyone agreed and were always correct there would be no horse racing and no paceadvantage.com.