Ban this Shameless POS

[Larry Hamilton]

we must be rid of this POS, he has no real value here other than lies, deception and half truths

[ljb]

Must have touched a nerve here Larry. Which truth hurt you the most?
1. Bush lied us into this quagmire in Iraq. One thousand dead and counting.
2. Bush has created the largest deficit in history.
3. Bush supports restricting human rights through constitutional amendments.
4. Bush has led this country into greater poverty then anytime in history.
5. Bush has led this country into more people without healthcare then anytime in history.
There are others but it is late. You can just post your own lie if you wish.

[kingfin66]

but to whom are you referring when you say POS?

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by kingfin66
but to whom are you referring when you say POS?

Does it Matter! Ban Him! :D

[kingfin66]

I know who I would ban, but you already outed him (her? it?), which is even better.

[Tee]

Originally posted by ljb
Must have touched a nerve here Larry. Which truth hurt you the most?
1. Bush lied us into this quagmire in Iraq. One thousand dead and counting.
2. Bush has created the largest deficit in history.
3. Bush supports restricting human rights through constitutional amendments.
4. Bush has led this country into greater poverty then anytime in history.
5. Bush has led this country into more people without healthcare then anytime in history.



Time for the broken record to get trashed?

[Lance]

Of LJB, Larry Hamilton wrote:

"we must be rid of this POS"

Shame on you, Larry Hamilton. Starting a string to call a man a "POS" and demand that he be banned? Disgraceful but wholly expected coming from you. How about defeating your enemies in battle instead of whining and demanding that they be banned? This post of yours is a wimp's post.

[Secretariat]

Why is that when anyone from the Left speaks out on this site polls are put up to "ban" him from the site?

Is what lbj says so disconcerting? I've put people on Ignore that bother me, some who've infuriated me, I certainly don't advocate banning them because they disagree with me. I may view them as an idiot, but you breathe easier Larry when you use the Ignore feature...why can't you do the same?

Personally I would much rather read LBJ's and Hcaps posts than most things posted here.

[ElKabong]

Nothing says shickenchit like a weenie taunting a brave soldier from behind a keyboard. Ljb is on par with a child molester, imho.

[ljb]

From Elk
"Nothing says shickenchit like a weenie taunting a brave soldier from behind a keyboard. Ljb is on par with a child molester, imho. "
And how would this compare to a weenie in white tie and tails at a millionaire fund raiser saying "Bring it on" While the brave soldiers are putting their asses on the line in what lsbets calls a shithole ?

[cj]

Originally posted by Secretariat

Personally I would much rather read LBJ's and Hcaps posts than most things posted here.

WOW, now there's a shocking revelation! Thanks for the newsflash.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by ljb
From Elk
"Nothing says shickenchit like a weenie taunting a brave soldier from behind a keyboard. Ljb is on par with a child molester, imho. "
And how would this compare to a weenie in white tie and tails at a millionaire fund raiser saying "Bring it on" While the brave soldiers are putting their asses on the line in what lsbets calls a shithole ?

I knew Kerry said he supported the war, even voted "yes" on it. Didn't know he said bring it on....Wait, he did!

Isn't there some Muslem kid you should be offering candy to in Dearborn?

[andicap]

So we're going to ban every single person who doesn't agree with Larry Hamilton or the other right-wingers here?

I thought we lived in America, but I guess somehow we've moved south to Cuba or maybe east to China or even Saudi Arabia.

What's next? SQ, you better watch out! Yankee fans and PA may ban YOU from the board for your unpopular views and for attacking PA.

I have resolved to avoid this section and concentrate on racing, but if this passes, I would be truly ashamed and shocked at the people here.

You might call what LJB says "lies," but that's just his point of view. I consider what Ralph, Larry, PA and others have to say the same thing, but I don't campaign for banning them. I don't call them names in scatalogical terms. It's POV not POS.


If you ban LJB from the board you might as well ban Secretariet, myself and the other "lying, traiterous, liberals."
I agree with most f what LJB has to way, so why not ban me, Larry?

Let's lay it all out on the line

1. I'm pro-gun control (who the hell needs an AK-47), but yes you can keep your hunting rifle.

2. I'm pro-choice.
3. I was against the war in Iraq when everyone here said that position was traitorout and now most Americans believe it was a mistake.
4. I'm anti capital punishment. (Barbarous and too many mistakes have been made in putting innocent people on death row).
5. I think George Bush is ignorant, a pawn of many major corporations, and in bed with the Saudis.
6 I like Michael Moore (although personally he's a meglomanical blow-hard).

7. I think the rich should be taxed more and the middle-class and the poor less.

8. I am for affirmative action to redress past wrong.

9. I don't always agree with the ACLU, but think it's an important group that is often the only voice out there protecting unpopular opinions that are protected by the First Amendment.

10. I believe the government should spend more money to help people on such items as mass-transit, railroads, job skill programs (to get people off welfare), education, and health care.

So go ahead, ban me and turn this board into a forum for the far right instead of a vibrant discussion of the issues.


In the words of Ronald Reagan, it's PA's microphone -- he did buy it -- so he can do whatever he wants. This is NOT a First Amendment issue.
But if he goes along with this ugly, un-American ban, it will have severe repercussions for this board.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[betchatoo]

Originally posted by andicap
So we're going to ban every single person who doesn't agree with Larry Hamilton or the other right-wingers here?

I thought we lived in America, but I guess somehow we've moved south to Cuba or maybe east to China or even Saudi Arabia.

What's next? SQ, you better watch out! Yankee fans and PA may ban YOU from the board for your unpopular views and for attacking PA.

I have resolved to avoid this section and concentrate on racing, but if this passes, I would be truly ashamed and shocked at the people here.

You might call what LJB says "lies," but that's just his point of view. I consider what Ralph, Larry, PA and others have to say the same thing, but I don't campaign for banning them. I don't call them names in scatalogical terms. It's POV not POS.


If you ban LJB from the board you might as well ban Secretariet, myself and the other "lying, traiterous, liberals."
I agree with most f what LJB has to way, so why not ban me, Larry?

Let's lay it all out on the line

1. I'm pro-gun control (who the hell needs an AK-47), but yes you can keep your hunting rifle.

2. I'm pro-choice.
3. I was against the war in Iraq when everyone here said that position was traitorout and now most Americans believe it was a mistake.
4. I'm anti capital punishment. (Barbarous and too many mistakes have been made in putting innocent people on death row).
5. I think George Bush is ignorant, a pawn of many major corporations, and in bed with the Saudis.
6 I like Michael Moore (although personally he's a meglomanical blow-hard).

7. I think the rich should be taxed more and the middle-class and the poor less.

8. I am for affirmative action to redress past wrong.

9. I don't always agree with the ACLU, but think it's an important group that is often the only voice out there protecting unpopular opinions that are protected by the First Amendment.

10. I believe the government should spend more money to help people on such items as mass-transit, railroads, job skill programs (to get people off welfare), education, and health care.

So go ahead, ban me and turn this board into a forum for the far right instead of a vibrant discussion of the issues.


In the words of Ronald Reagan, it's PA's microphone -- he did buy it -- so he can do whatever he wants. This is NOT a First Amendment issue.
But if he goes along with this ugly, un-American ban, it will have severe repercussions for this board.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


Andicapp you are my hero. I have always enjoyed your racing posts, and I can understand why you normally avoid this forum but I admire a man who can eloquently state his beliefs.

You do have to be careful. According to Just Missed you have now entered into league with the devil. Of course if heaven meant I had to spend time with him, I'd rather go to hell.

[Larry Hamilton]

Alll points that we can deal with.

The one that fired me up was this one-- How do you deal with someone who excuses 200 baby killings? I will be the scat man--such people are a POS.

[ljb]

From Elk
"I knew Kerry said he supported the war, even voted "yes" on it. Didn't know he said bring it on....Wait, he did!
Isn't there some Muslem kid you should be offering candy to in Dearborn?
Elk,
You know damn well I was reffering to a member of Rove's gang of four with my quote.
Oh and as for Muslim children, methinks there are some Muslem children in Baghdad that could use our support right now after last nights bombing.

[JustRalph]

Andi

I disagree with just about everything you listed.......... and you know it. But calling me a liar is a little much don't you think?

I challenge you to find a lie in anything I have posted...........

I can show you polls that were taken in the last few weeks that show over 50% of americans are now for the war effort. But I know, you don't care. If the poll wasn't taken in NY or thereabouts you won't give it any credibility. Get the hell out of New York or the East coast in General and you might find a different country........just a tip.

As for a vibrant discussion of the issues........that doesn't occur here. The party line from the DNC is cut and pasted over and over again..............you won't find that coming from the other side of the aisle.........but lately your brethren here have gone a little far. Suggesting that the terrorists in Russia may have had a right to do what they did? Taunting and insulting a member who is currently on the front lines, while he is in fact leading men who are in danger every day..........I think that goes a little far......maybe you don't..........to each his own. I don't think anybody is going to get banned. You are right.......it is PA's dime though........and Freedom of Speech doesn't apply here..........

[ljb]

From Jr
"Suggesting that the terrorists in Russia may have had a right to do what they did? Taunting and insulting a member who is currently on the front lines,
If you check back, I never suggested the terrorists had a right to do what they did. I was mearly trying to start a discussion as to what causes people to do such things. Much like the Colombine incident we should/can learn from these things with open discussion and/or debate about the causes of such activity. As for the taunting what do you consider calling someone who disagrees with you a POS ?
Oh and I am sorry Sec turned down your request for a date, perhaps you can get hooked up with Lefty or Tom . ;)

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by ljb
You know damn well I was reffering to a member of Rove's gang of four with my quote.
Oh and as for Muslim children, methinks there are some Muslem children in Baghdad that could use our support right now after last nights bombing. [/B]


Kids in Baghdad are no longer forced to see their dads tortured or killed and mothers raped right before their eyes by saddam's henchmen. You can thank lsbets for that.

[ljb]

From Elk
" Kids in Baghdad are no longer forced to see their dads killed and mothers raped right before their eyes. You can thank lsbets for that. "
Makes you wonder why the residents of Baghdad aren't thanking us. Wasn't it that foul mouthed Cheney that said "they will welcome us as liberators"?

[ElKabong]

(L)oser(J)ihadistB)----------,

Many did greet us as liberators. The MSM actually shows some goodwill from the Iraqi citizenry to our soldiers once in a while, even today. The violence now in Iraq is mostly from people not "US friendly" to begin with.

Two things are happening that pisses off radical Muslems. (1) We're helping to set up a free society in the Middle east, and (2) we're eliminating many terrorists by the day. Terrorists that would normally be killing civilians elsewhere if not for our Military taking care of business.

At some point we had to let the people of Iraq (or any M.E. nation) try running a free society on their own. For 60 years we installed dictators or backed royal families or religious zealots. All or most have failed to run their societies without grevious Human Rights violations.

What GWB has done is give them a chance to live in a free and open society, away from the heavy handed regime of saddam. At some point in history, some one was bound to ask "instead of installing dictators, kings and radicals, why not give these people an opportunity at freedom?".

That is what is going on right now. The terrorist orgs and some religious fanatics with violent tendencies are doing their best to keep it from happening.....It's worth the try....To not try is to admit failure (as the free world's leader) and put our own nat'l security at risk. The people of Iraq deserve a shot at a free society whether you like it or not. The days of a Saddam ruling by terror are over.

[schweitz]

Andicap----I don't think the anti-ljb sentiment has anything to do with the 10 points you posted. In my opinion he is the only poster on this board who has crossed the line of decency more than a few times.

[ljb]

From Schweitz
"In my opinion he is the only poster on this board who has crossed the line of decency more than a few times. "
Please define "line of decency" Does calling someone a POS cross that line?
Does telling someone he has a small penis cross that line?
Does calling someone Loser Jihadist Boymolester cross that line?

Please let me know as I want to follow the rules here.

Elk,
Sorry but the majority of the people in Iraq want us out!
Why do we have the responsibility to sacrifice American lives to set up a government in a country that doesn't want it?

[lsbets]

Andi, Sec, et al.....

Have I ever said anything about any of you being banned? No. While I cannot speak for others who find ljb so distasteful that he should not be here, let me speak for myself. Here are 3 of the things that he has done which caused me to vote yes:

1) Basically told me that what I see with my own eyes over here does not matter, I am clueless and don't know what I see here and what I am doing - remember his tag line "get real"

2) Made a rather crass crude remark about any casualties my unit may have suffered. If he ever stood in front of me and said that he would not stand anywhere ever again.

3) Acknowledged that I am in a rather stressful situation, and then thought that he would mock me and the mission my men are performing to try and cause more stress. Real class, huh?

This has nothing to do with liberal/conservative for me. I think the board would be rather boring without Sec. I think the bored is infinitly better off without Amazing. And I think it would be evern more so without ljb. Maybe I should have a thicker skin, maybe I should place him on ignore. But why should we not expect someone who posts here to at least show a little consraint and decency? I know everyone wants to think this has something to do with political views, but to me it does not. The three points above are off the top of my head, if you would like a longer list let me know.

[Latin Qtr]

I love politics but I always talk it in political forums but this
thread makes me want to share my thoughts. Attack ideas NOT
people. I think there are four posters in here that are mavericks.
LBJ SEC ANDICAP and DEREK. I've met Derek in the War Room
but not the others. There are some very great ideas from those
four guys and it won't do any good if you ignore ideas because
they won't go away. So DEBATE is good but ad hominems are
fun but not important.

[JustMissed]

Originally posted by betchatoo


Of course if heaven meant I had to spend time with him, I'd rather go to hell.

Betchatoo, I wish you would not say things like that. I would never wish someone to go to hell for any reason.

Don't take this board so personal. Just a bunch of anonymous posters trying to express a viewpoint or maybe just joking around for entertainment purposes.

I pray that as you continue to read the various post you will see that they represent more than political points of view and are acutually a representation of our citizens' view of what kind of future they want for our nation.

It's not about Red v. Blue

It's about Good v. Evil

JM

[doophus]

As a "neo-con Southern Baptist" who was a neo-con several years before Rove reached puberty, I voted to KEEP ljb. (Father, forgive me!)

IMO, getting "disturbed" by folks of ljb's political view only reinforces my conservatism.

[ljb]

lsbets,
I have some issues with your post but will pass at this time. God speed to you and your men.

[ljb]

doophus,
What is the favorite track of the southern baptists? And for that matter do they prefer mint juleps or bourban straight up? ;)
just curious

[kingfin66]

Originally posted by Latin Qtr
I love politics but I always talk it in political forums but this
thread makes me want to share my thoughts. Attack ideas NOT
people. I think there are four posters in here that are mavericks.
LBJ SEC ANDICAP and DEREK. I've met Derek in the War Room
but not the others. There are some very great ideas from those
four guys and it won't do any good if you ignore ideas because
they won't go away. So DEBATE is good but ad hominems are
fun but not important.

You think Andicap is a maverick?

[JustMissed]

Here is what doophus said:

"As a "neo-con Southern Baptist" who was a neo-con several years before Rove reached puberty, I voted to KEEP ljb. (Father, forgive me!)

IMO, getting "disturbed" by folks of ljb's political view only reinforces my conservatism."

doophus made a comparison of ljb's "political" views to his "conservative" views.

Now, notice what ljb's response is below:

Originally posted by ljb
doophus,
What is the favorite track of the southern baptists? And for that matter do they prefer mint juleps or bourban straight up? ;)
just curious

ljb compares southern baptist to a rock band and then profers the alleged hypocracy that they promote temperance on Sunday but might take a drink on Saturday night.

Gets a little old seeing Christians constantly being attacked by DemLibs.

I am surprised that doophus being from Baton Rouge wasn't accused of "hanging negros" in his front yard.

Everyone is to be protected from criticism except white southern Christians, they seem to be fair game these days and do you ever wonder why? Good and descent people with high morals and Christian values are WINNING and taking back the country and the Devil just cannot stand it.

JM

[ljb]

Just missed,
Close but not correct. My reference to track was intended to be a horse track. And the drinking referred to my opinion of the southern baptists being tea-totalers. I was just trying to point out the inconsistiencies of doophus's goals.
If, in fact he does gamble and imbibe one would have to consider him a hypocrit don't you think?

[cj]

ljb has to find something else to talk about, the Presidential race is a foregone conclusion. Better start pumping up Hillary in 2008. Won't that be fun when her past starts being dug up!? :D

[ljb]

cj,
Are you trying to say something here?

[keilan]

Do you play the horses?

[cj]

I guess I better spell it out. Kerry is finished. Done. Finito. Comprende?

Rather than pick fights and make personal attacks, maybe you should jump on the Hills bandwagon.

[andicap]

Originally posted by JustRalph
Andi

I disagree with just about everything you listed.......... and you know it. But calling me a liar is a little much don't you think?

I challenge you to find a lie in anything I have posted...........

I can show you polls that were taken in the last few weeks that show over 50% of americans are now for the war effort. But I know, you don't care. If the poll wasn't taken in NY or thereabouts you won't give it any credibility. Get the hell out of New York or the East coast in General and you might find a different country........just a tip.

As for a vibrant discussion of the issues........that doesn't occur here. The party line from the DNC is cut and pasted over and over again..............you won't find that coming from the other side of the aisle.........but lately your brethren here have gone a little far. Suggesting that the terrorists in Russia may have had a right to do what they did? Taunting and insulting a member who is currently on the front lines, while he is in fact leading men who are in danger every day..........I think that goes a little far......maybe you don't..........to each his own. I don't think anybody is going to get banned. You are right.......it is PA's dime though........and Freedom of Speech doesn't apply here..........

Ralph,
You missed my point. I don't consider you a liar. I consider you having a different POV as myself just as the liberals here have different POV as yourself.

Show me some posts where a member of the front lines was taunted and I will be the first to condemn that person -- but not ban them. Thomas Jefferson would be ashamed of your position. If you've read any 18th century and early 19th century American history (as I'm sure you have) you'll know that the vitriol on this board is mild compared to what Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton engaged in.

Political campaigns back then were 100x worse than today's. Not defending today's discourse, just saying that in America we use speech and --- if necessary, as a last resort, the legal system -- to influence public opinion.

Use facts and eloquent speech to bring down people who engage in reprehensible behavior. Censorship is plain un-American.

If we banned speech that many of us considered "lies," almost every political ad on television could be banned! (On both sides, I will add).

[andicap]

Originally posted by schweitz
Andicap----I don't think the anti-ljb sentiment has anything to do with the 10 points you posted. In my opinion he is the only poster on this board who has crossed the line of decency more than a few times.

Email me some examples (I don't regularly monitor this board).

I have a feeling that many times his arguments are misconstrued or misrepresented.

For example, no one is in favor of terrorism. Not even LJB. But you DO need to see their side of the story in order to try and fight it.

In fact there are very many excellent books that seek to understand how the radical Islamists got that way and how our behavior may have influenced them.

It is not IMHO in bad taste to say that actions the American government took (actions that most of the AMerican people would be against if they knew all the facts) in the past 20 years have led to THE CONDITIONS that allow terrorism to flourish.

Invading Iraq is just one.
How about how America promised the Shiites they would support them against Hussein after the Gulf War and then let Hussein gas hundreds of thousands of them. Why should the Shiites like us now?
How about how we betrayed the Kurds after the first Gulf War as well?

You don't think there's a ton of lingering resentment against us for our behavior back then?

[ljb]

kelian,
Haven't made a bet since Preakness where I cleaned up on both exacta and trifecta wagers. I used to be an avid player came to this board looking for advice/help in fine tuning my selection process. Found similiar if not as insane arguing on handicapping topics. Found many folks on this topic raving about kicking Saddams A$$. Thought board could use a little balance and been posting my opinions since.

[ljb]

From cj,
"I guess I better spell it out. Kerry is finished. Done. Finito. Comprende?
Rather than pick fights and make personal attacks, maybe you should jump on the Hills bandwagon.
While i will admit Kerry is down in the polls, I am not anywhere near conceding at this point.
My postings tend to get people upset. I do not post to pick fights. My personal attacks are always in response to attacks by others. I don't recall any specific post where i have tried to pick a fight. Although with a couple of posters, Tom and Lefty I will occasionally post something that I think fits them. Without provocation.
If you go through the posts you will find this type of behaviour. I will post an opinion as to an action by Bush or one of the gang of four and responders begin calling me names and questioning my patriotism etc. An example would be the post by Schwietz above. He says I have crossed the line of decency, I responded and he has yet to reply. Go Figure?
I am not trying to pick a fight I just disagree totally with what is going on in this country under this administration and will continue to express my opinions. If Bush should be elected President, I will most likely just vacate this board.

[JustRalph]

Andi.......point taken.

The taunting of LSBETS by LJB is available online here. It has been commented on several times.

I don't think anybody should be banned.......if you go back and look at my post early on in this thread........you will notice a smiley after my post to "ban them" it was a joke based on the fact that the poll didn't actually refer to anyone in particular, and I think most got it..................

[kenwoodallpromos]

I thought Larry was POS.

[Tom]

I have unbounding respect and feel a real friendship with andicap,even though we are politically faaaar apart on many issues. The common love of handciapping we share is what I focus on. I respect his POV as different than mine. In fact, he has influenced my views on some topics.
I enjoy making Sec dance because I don't think he is a bad person. I think he knows I am yanking his chain most of the time.
The issue I have with certain posters ( two current and one long gone, or is he?) is thier personalities, or rather lack of them.
It is usually hard to tell what someone's intent is from just reading typed words, but some are no brainers.
I suggest the Ignore button if you are offended by someone.
But I voted to ban him anyway, just to add balance to the poll!


:rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by andicap
3. I was against the war in Iraq when everyone here said that position was traitorout and now most Americans believe it was a mistake.

That's bullshit and you know it. I don't know anyone here who seriously said it would be treasonous to be against the war in Iraq. I would certainly never say this, and I can't recall anyone else who has said this. Being against the war in Iraq is an opinion, not an act of treason.

Don't go making things up ("everyone here said....")

Baloney.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by ljb
From Schweitz
"In my opinion he is the only poster on this board who has crossed the line of decency more than a few times. "
Please define "line of decency" Does calling someone a POS cross that line?
Does telling someone he has a small penis cross that line?
Does calling someone Loser Jihadist Boymolester cross that line?

Please let me know as I want to follow the rules here.

Elk,
Sorry but the majority of the people in Iraq want us out!
Why do we have the responsibility to sacrifice American lives to set up a government in a country that doesn't want it?

Actually, boymolester does cross the line, and I edited his comment out....

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by kingfin66
You think Andicap is a maverick?

I was thinking the same thing....LOL

I know Andicap personally, so he knows this is just good natured ribbing.....

[keilan]

Haven't made a bet since Preakness where I cleaned up on both exacta and trifecta wagers. I used to be an avid player came to this board looking for advice/help in fine tuning my selection process. Found similiar if not as insane arguing on handicapping topics. Found many folks on this topic raving about kicking Saddams A$$. Thought board could use a little balance and been posting my opinions since.


Ljb – what I don’t get is this. It’s a horse-race site and all you wanna do is talk politics, which is really pretty nuts. The Preakness was quite some time ago, whom have you converted in that time. Ralph, Tom, Lefty. By the way Derek2U and the Latin guy don’t count. Damn I’d absolutely hate it if I were in a constant battle with the guys here after working all day. What’s the payoff for you? I also thought the poll could use a little balance and kicked you ass :D :D

[andicap]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
I was thinking the same thing....LOL

I know Andicap personally, so he knows this is just good natured ribbing.....

Well I often disagree with liberals so I could be called a maverick.
(And I do respect John McCain although I don't agree with him on many issues and he's called a "maverick." Only in politics could someone who speaks so plainly and often disagrees with his party be labeled a "maverick" I guess that's true in life too. In a corporate environment his type of behavior would get you fired.)

Anyway I disagree with many left of center people on:

1. Political correctness. You can't tell a good ethnic joke at upper West Side New York parties. Boring!

2. Israel. Both sides are wrong, basically. Well. its more complicated than that.

3. Hunting. (I'm in favor of it, not appalled by it. It's good for the animal population overall.)

4. Censorship. You'd be amazed how many liberals want to censor ideas that are unpopular with them or ostracize people who disagree with them or won't let unpopular points of view get heard.

5. Feminism -- Equal money for equal work and get rid of the glass ceiling I agree with. But overall feminists have almost no sense of humor about themselves and their movement and I have no problems with keeping private mens clubs all-male. (as long as they don't get government funding.) A movement that went too far and left many men confused as to their roles and how to act in today's society toward women.
(Treat women equally -- OK, but I was always taught as a kid never to curse in front of women. There's a disconnect there. You want equal -- well, there's a lot of hypocrisy involved there. )

6 Hillary Clinton --
There's just something about her I can't connect with. I don't dispise her like the right, but she's no hero like she is to most liberals. She was a consistent suppporter of the war in Iraq as well, which seemed to me to be a political stance.
Bill was a lovable rogue to me. Hillary just seems calcuating.

7. Gambling. The left is very moral here, always trying to protect people from themselves, trying to limit gambling. Extremely condescending attitude. "Oh the poor people have to be protected against themselves. They bet their rent money. We should limit gambling."
Booze and cigarettes add up too but no one's going to ban them.

8. Globalism. It's here and it helps people overseas. Deal with it.

[lsbets]

Ljb posted this in another thread:

"cj,
You are sounding rather full of it today. Did you ever get the body count on dead Iraqui children? Went up a bit in the last 24 hours you know."

Maybe I interpret this differently than others, but this statement came after a back and forth where people talked about all of the children killed in Russia, and ljb made comments about all of the children he thinks we are killing in Iraq. He directed this comment to cj, who is in the Air Force. I see this as a backdoor way for him to call those of us in the military and in Iraq babykillers without havinbg the audacity to do it outright like they did to the soldiers in Vietnam.

As someone who has seen the terrorists here hide behind women and children and use them as cover when they attack us, and has seen our soldiers hold back on their fire so as to not kill women and children I can't begin to tell you how wrong he is in his attitudes towards our military. Many of my comrades are dead because we excercise restraint. War is ugly as hell, yet the United States military does its best to fight war while minimizing civilian casualties, and an unfortunate side effect of that is all too many times American soldiers are killed because the only way to shoot the guy shooting at us is to blow a kid into a million pieces who is being used as a shield. To try and get a dig in on someone in the military making that comment is classless at best.


Andi, you posted :"Show me some posts where a member of the front lines was taunted and I will be the first to condemn that person -- but not ban them."

Do you interpret that post as anything other than a taunt? I am not taunting you by saying that, for while we disagree on many issues, you are not a reactionary and think through your beliefs. I am curious as to your take on his comments.

[ljb]

lsbets,
In my debate with cj I said we are killing innocent children in Iraq. I did not say this was intentional. Please stop trying to twist my words to fit your thoughts!
God Bless you and your men and may you all return home safely.

[ljb]

From Kelian
" Ljb ? what I don?t get is this. It?s a horse-race site and all you wanna do is talk politics, which is really pretty nuts. The Preakness was quite some time ago, whom have you converted in that time. Ralph, Tom, Lefty. By the way Derek2U and the Latin guy don?t count. Damn I?d absolutely hate it if I were in a constant battle with the guys here after working all day. What?s the payoff for you? I also thought the poll could use a little balance and kicked you ass
Kelian,
First I made a mistake it was the Belmont stakes. Secondly I don't expect to convert anyone here, especially those mentioned. I am just trying to post an opposing view so the lurkers can see there are two sides to these events.
A word of caution here!
This country is heading in the same direction as this board. The election of G.W. Bush as President will expidite that move unless the Democrats gain control of the senate/house.
This board trys to ostracize and drive out dissenting views. When G.W. Bush has a campaign rally/speech the attendants are screened before hand, any who have opposing views are not allowed in. Is that the kind of country you want to live in?
Not sure what you mean by "kicked you ass"

[PaceAdvantage]

It has been reported that Kerry's people do the same kind of screening at his campaign stops. Do you deny that this happens?

And if Bush was trying to ostracize and silence all opposing views, how the hell did all those protesters make it to NYC? How do all those celebrities get up on stage and say the most vial things about the President.

Obviously something doesn't add up with your story.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by andicap
Well I often disagree with liberals so I could be called a maverick.
(And I do respect John McCain although I don't agree with him on many issues and he's called a "maverick." Only in politics could someone who speaks so plainly and often disagrees with his party be labeled a "maverick" I guess that's true in life too. In a corporate environment his type of behavior would get you fired.)

Anyway I disagree with many left of center people on:

1. Political correctness. You can't tell a good ethnic joke at upper West Side New York parties. Boring!

2. Israel. Both sides are wrong, basically. Well. its more complicated than that.

3. Hunting. (I'm in favor of it, not appalled by it. It's good for the animal population overall.)

4. Censorship. You'd be amazed how many liberals want to censor ideas that are unpopular with them or ostracize people who disagree with them or won't let unpopular points of view get heard.

5. Feminism -- Equal money for equal work and get rid of the glass ceiling I agree with. But overall feminists have almost no sense of humor about themselves and their movement and I have no problems with keeping private mens clubs all-male. (as long as they don't get government funding.) A movement that went too far and left many men confused as to their roles and how to act in today's society toward women.
(Treat women equally -- OK, but I was always taught as a kid never to curse in front of women. There's a disconnect there. You want equal -- well, there's a lot of hypocrisy involved there. )

6 Hillary Clinton --
There's just something about her I can't connect with. I don't dispise her like the right, but she's no hero like she is to most liberals. She was a consistent suppporter of the war in Iraq as well, which seemed to me to be a political stance.
Bill was a lovable rogue to me. Hillary just seems calcuating.

7. Gambling. The left is very moral here, always trying to protect people from themselves, trying to limit gambling. Extremely condescending attitude. "Oh the poor people have to be protected against themselves. They bet their rent money. We should limit gambling."
Booze and cigarettes add up too but no one's going to ban them.

8. Globalism. It's here and it helps people overseas. Deal with it.

Well, andicap I admire many of your posts, but do disagree on some of the things above.

1. Ethnicity jokes are only funny when you’re not the one being laughed at.

2. Israel. I agree, the situation is very complex. I feel however, it is impossible to have an honest debate about this without being called an anti-Semite or in the pocket of Sharon and his cronies.

3. Hunting – I have no problem with hunting or fishing. Just wish the water was cleaner and I didn’t see guys with assault weapons in the woods.

4. Censorship – I see the far right as wanting to censor way more than the left. Generally, on issues fundamental to their morality. I also see more censorship by this administration in terms of redacted material in which the term national security is used. Here’s an example of a flagrant piece of unnecessary censorship.:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/feds/justice_redaction.htm

5. Feminism – I guess I am still trying to figure this one out as well. Have enough trouble figuring out my wife without dealing with all women’s problems ,and I’ve been married to her for 28 years.

6. Clintons – Actually, I’m the other way around. I wasn’t real fond of Bill – maybe it was his service record, or non-record..maybe it was that he reminded me of a blow hard I knew in school…never struck me as genuine….thought on his watch the economy did well, but that’s about it….Hilary on the other hand, while grating to many people, actually had more balls than Bill. She went out on the line for National Healthcare, and I believe strongly in that issue. She’s tough, and tries to get to the bottom of things. Was her run in NYC for Senate opportunist? Absolutely, but someone as liberal as her could never get elected in the South. That’s one reason I don’t think she is a good candidate for Prez in 2008. She is way more liberal than Kerry, she of course has no service record, and she’ll antagonize people. Kerry is more relaxed, less hyper, and I like him.

7. Gambling – My strongest disagreement with you here. The far right is way more against gambling than the left. The churches are generally composed of people further to the right of center, particularly the Southern churches, and the northern Methodists. I see Republican state senators often opposing expansion of gambling and rarely see Dem senators doing that.

8. Globalism- Deal with it is the key. The problem is unfettered free but unfair markets are ravaging people’s opportunities for a living wage. If we want to be a “nation” then American workers should be thought about first and foremost, not Global businesses. “American” workers vote, not “Global businesses whose fundamental religion is the ledger sheet and profits. This is a huge problem. Simply saying deal with it, is what employers used to say in the early part of this century until strong labor laws were initiated. What is we had just accepted “deal with it” when there were no child labor laws, no minimum wage, no 40 hour workweek, no OSHA protections, no overtime (wait, they’re trying to reverse that one). “Deal with it” is something we all do everyday, but the inference is “just accept it because you can’t do anything about it” I disagree on that. Our government has a lot of leverage to change things here.

Andicap, appreciate your posts, but just wanted to show that two people from the left can see things differently, and still respect one another’s opinions.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Andicap, appreciate your posts, but just wanted to show that two people from the left can see things differently, and still respect one another’s opinions.

It's unfortunate that you can't act this way towards all "opposing" views....

[andicap]

That's it! "
Ban Secretariet!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[andicap]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Well, andicap I admire many of your posts, but do disagree on some of the things above.

1. Ethnicity jokes are only funny when you’re not the one being laughed at.

---
I agree there is a limit here. I don't mind Jewish jokes, but I could see an African-American being offended at some of the more tasteless jokes I've heard considering the history of race in this country. Still, who doesn't like a good Polish joke? (Yes, the Polish I guess)
-----------------

2. Israel. I agree, the situation is very complex. I feel however, it is impossible to have an honest debate about this without being called an anti-Semite or in the pocket of Sharon and his cronies.

---exactly why I don't get into debates about it. I even disagree with many members of my own family.


3. Hunting – I have no problem with hunting or fishing. Just wish the water was cleaner and I didn’t see guys with assault weapons in the woods.

-- agreed. Doesn't seem very sporting, does it? And it should be done in a humane way so the animals don't suffer. (no traps, etc.)


4. Censorship – I see the far right as wanting to censor way more than the left. Generally, on issues fundamental to their morality. I also see more censorship by this administration in terms of redacted material in which the term national security is used. Here’s an example of a flagrant piece of unnecessary censorship.:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/feds/justice_redaction.htm

Didn't say the right is correct. Just that I expect liberals to be perfect on this issue. I've seen too many instances where liberal audiences shouted down speakers who didn't agree with them or ostracized people with controversial opinions. I saw it in the Cold War when anyone who was considered "anti-Communist" was branded a reactionary. (You could be anti-Communist without being in favor of Viet Nam. My biggest problem with the anti-Communist movement was that it usually supported far far right regimes -- dictatorships like Pinochet in Chile and Franco in Spain, countries with horrible human rights records in order to "save" people from Communism, (not necessariy Stalinism, a marked difference. France had a Communist president Mitterand, but he certainly was no Stalinist)

5. Feminism – I guess I am still trying to figure this one out as well. Have enough trouble figuring out my wife without dealing with all women’s problems ,and I’ve been married to her for 28 years.

6. Clintons – Actually, I’m the other way around. I wasn’t real fond of Bill – maybe it was his service record, or non-record..maybe it was that he reminded me of a blow hard I knew in school…never struck me as genuine….thought on his watch the economy did well, but that’s about it….Hilary on the other hand, while grating to many people, actually had more balls than Bill. She went out on the line for National Healthcare, and I believe strongly in that issue. She’s tough, and tries to get to the bottom of things. Was her run in NYC for Senate opportunist? Absolutely, but someone as liberal as her could never get elected in the South. That’s one reason I don’t think she is a good candidate for Prez in 2008. She is way more liberal than Kerry, she of course has no service record, and she’ll antagonize people. Kerry is more relaxed, less hyper, and I like him.

7. Gambling – My strongest disagreement with you here. The far right is way more against gambling than the left. The churches are generally composed of people further to the right of center, particularly the Southern churches, and the northern Methodists. I see Republican state senators often opposing expansion of gambling and rarely see Dem senators doing that.

-- I didn't say the far right is correct here. Many fundamentalists are very much anti-gambling. I just see the same opinions on the part of many liberals. (I argue with my brother on this.) For example, ex-Maryland governor who was against extending gambling even to save the tracks.


8. Globalism- Deal with it is the key. The problem is unfettered free but unfair markets are ravaging people’s opportunities for a living wage. If we want to be a “nation” then American workers should be thought about first and foremost, not Global businesses. “American” workers vote, not “Global businesses whose fundamental religion is the ledger sheet and profits. This is a huge problem. Simply saying deal with it, is what employers used to say in the early part of this century until strong labor laws were initiated. What is we had just accepted “deal with it” when there were no child labor laws, no minimum wage, no 40 hour workweek, no OSHA protections, no overtime (wait, they’re trying to reverse that one). “Deal with it” is something we all do everyday, but the inference is “just accept it because you can’t do anything about it” I disagree on that. Our government has a lot of leverage to change things here.

-- I agree that free-trade treaties must have caveats like treating foreign workers in a decent fashion and paying them a living wage as well as giving foreign nations strong incentives to clean up their environment. I liked Howard Dean's position on this.


Andicap, appreciate your posts, but just wanted to show that two people from the left can see things differently, and still respect one another’s opinions.

[ljb]

From PA
"It has been reported that Kerry's people do the same kind of screening at his campaign stops. Do you deny that this happens? "
I saw Kerry speaking in Cleveland directly across the street in full view of Kerry and the press were a group of Bush supporters. Also Kerry was on the Daily show and said his speeches were open to the public.
More from PA,
" And if Bush was trying to ostracize and silence all opposing views, how the hell did all those protesters make it to NYC? How do all those celebrities get up on stage and say the most vial things about the President.
Simple response: The administration has not been completely successful in their efforts. YET!

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
It's unfortunate that you can't act this way towards all "opposing" views....

It's not so much the views that bother me, but often the civility in which they're expressed that engenders strong reactions. When one reads the venom from some posts, it isn't about views, it's about demonization of character. I have little tolerance for those posts.

Andicaps, list was understandable, non inflammatory and to the point without attempting to denigrate anyone. It was easy to "act this way" to a post like that.

Yes, I've seen venom on BOTH sides in these forums, and have probably let fly a couple times myself because I felt passionately about an issue. I don't even mind that kind of passion to a cause, and when it is about issues I understand. BUT When it's an assault on someone here in the forum, OR an assault on someone's character whom I respect such as Kerry by the SW group for political purposes, I feel quite differently.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by ljb
Simple response: The administration has not been completely successful in their efforts. YET!

Yes, and Michael Moore's movie barely made it to the silver screen, right?

Your case is a very weak one.

[PaceAdvantage]

Andi, I edited your post to make it easier to read. You originally had everything in bold. I corrected this by eliminating the bold type on your responses....

[Larry Hamilton]

Now that is hilarious. Two liberals making nice with each other and claiming something has been accomplished because they can have a congenial conversation WITH EACH OTHER!!!!

[andicap]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Andi, I edited your post to make it easier to read. You originally had everything in bold. I corrected this by eliminating the bold type on your responses....

appreciate it.

speaking of BOLD. I can't get my 12 point MS Word copy (Times New Roman, "Normal" format) out of bold. I have to go down to 10 point.
Anyone got an answer?

[ljb]

From PA
"Yes, and Michael Moore's movie barely made it to the silver screen, right? "
You are kind of dancing around the issue here. I said 4 more years on neo-con control and we will have complete censorship. I did not say we had it now.
Come to think Michael Moore's movie did have some distribution problems. Seems Disney thought about the Bushies control in Florida (home of Disney World) and refused to distribute the film. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Michael finally have to go to a Canadain company to get his film distributed?
Oh and you disregarded my point about Kerry's speechs being open to All Americans.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by ljb
Come to think Michael Moore's movie did have some distribution problems.

From the way some posters were carrying on a few months ago, they were making it seem like a close to 90% certainty that the movie wouldn't see the light of day here in America. I responded with a big "FAT CHANCE" (no pun intended)

Of course, I was right....

Oh and you disregarded my point about Kerry's speechs being open to All Americans.

The Bush camp says that their speeches are open to all Americans as well. You're both liars I guess.

[JustRalph]

Kerry took his son to see F-911
here they are

[Tom]

Originally posted by andicap
appreciate it.

speaking of BOLD. I can't get my 12 point MS Word copy (Times New Roman, "Normal" format) out of bold. I have to go down to 10 point.
Anyone got an answer?

Hey, andi, isn't that the font settings of those forged docs Dan Rather had today!?!?!?! :D :D :D :D

[Tom]

Ljb's been stirred up latley. Ramadan season will do that.

[schweitz]

Or not taking your pills.

[ljb]

From PA
"The Bush camp says that their speeches are open to all Americans as well. You're both liars I guess. "
Glad to see you finally admited Bush is a liar. Now we just have to get you to face up to the lies he told us prior to his quagmire in Iraq.

[ljb]

Tom and Schweitz,
Glad to see you are both resorting to personal attacks. Looks like you both lost your (Cheney expletive deleted) heads. :D :D :D
Also am still waiting for Schweitz's clarification of beyond the limits of decency.