Is Winx really the best horse?

[whisperlunch]

She’s won 26 in a row. That’s one more than Black Cavier. To win that many races in a row is crazy. Who in the US has won that many? How would you compare her to the horses that race here in North America ? I admire the connections that keep running her but it would be so explosive to bring her to the Beeeders Cup. Imagine the hype. Curious of people’s thoughts ?

[whisperlunch]

Also I don’t know much about her - does she run only against fillies or does she race versus the boys?

Does running clockwise and then counter clockwise mess with a horse?

If she did ( I know she won’t ) but if she did run in breeders cup what race would she enter?

[Lemon Drop Husker]

She’s won 26 in a row. That’s one more than Black Cavier. To win that many races in a row is crazy. Who in the US has won that many? How would you compare her to the horses that race here in North America ? I admire the connections that keep running her but it would be so explosive to bring her to the Beeeders Cup. Imagine the hype. Curious of people’s thoughts ?


She would have never won 26 in a row if they shipped her to Europe or the States. Period.

While Australia has decent racing, they don't have grea
t racing.

She run's at Ascot a time or two, I'd guarantee she would have been beat.


She is a great horse, and I love the entire story. Reality is, there have been many many horses before (and after) that are better.

In my lifetime, this is probably the best turf horse I've ever seen. 14-0, and truly spanked some really really good horses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankel_%28horse%29
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankel_%28horse%29)

If you have 8 and half minutes, this is Frankel:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtVTFb9Tf7k

[whisperlunch]

Wow. That’s a cool video.

[biggestal99]

If you have 8 and half minutes, this is Frankel:




The “great” who ducked the derby and the arc.

Allan

[Lemon Drop Husker]

The “great” who ducked the derby and the arc.

Allan


Very true.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Wow. That’s a cool video.


It is hard to win turf races by a length or more. Especially in Europe where turf racing is high end of high end.

Frankel consistently whipped fields by 5 or more lengths.

[whisperlunch]

FRANKEL only had 1 race that was close.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

FRANKEL only had 1 race that was close.

The "middle" move of Frankel is unreal. Not only did it happen early, it was sustained and through the wire.

To be able to make that move, and then fend off the deep closing turf monsters in Europe is truly sensational. And not once, but time, and time, and time again.

Truly amazing horse.

[biggestal99]

While Australia has decent racing, they don't have grea
t racing.



The 2015 cox plate was a pretty good race and winx ripped highland reel a new one at almost equal weights.

Allan

[biggestal99]

Very true.

Every great has its kryptonite.

For winx it’s never have traveled outside of Australia.

That’s huge, I agree.

I was hoping a trip to Ascot this year but alas....

Allan

[Afleet]

If she came to the US for the BC I would bet against her w/both fists, but Im a contrarian. That being said she is a great horse

[papillon]

Also I don’t know much about her - does she run only against fillies or does she race versus the boys?

Does running clockwise and then counter clockwise mess with a horse?

If she did ( I know she won’t ) but if she did run in breeders cup what race would she enter?

She runs against males.

She runs and wins from 7f to 10f regularly.

She's a closer, closing into large crowded fields, always going wide.

She has maintained her form for years.

She might not beat Euros, esp since she prefers firm-ish turf, but there is no American turf horse who could beat her, outside of our greatest, and even then she'd be coming at the end, and have an honest chance. There are no Euros with her range. They have sprinters, milers, and stayers. They do not have sprinter-miler-stayers. Just like us.

The person who dismissed her because she's not Frankel, one of the greatest straight turf milers ever (he'd have lost to Goldikova, FWIW, esp on a tight, 2 turn, firm American track), well, yep, compared to him, she's clearly just the Australian Pepper's Pride. My money is on Winx against Frankel at 2 turns at 10f.

Australia is 30 hours from anywhere. Only Goldophin and Coolmore, with their own fleet of specialized planes and runways, travel that far. Winx's connections talked to Black Cavier's connections, who told them the ship was very hard on her. They also are not wealthy. They aren't 200 Chinese Billionaires.

Australians care about Australian races most. Doesn't matter what we think of her, in Australia she is in the realm of Phar Lap.

I'll take Winx over a 6 race "phenom" any day. Racing needs Winxes. 26 wins isn't just sub-par competition, it is her ability to make her own luck.

[GMB@BP]

She is definitely a very special horse, while long win streaks can be a bit over hyped its still not easy to real off that many wins, especially from a dead closer type run.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

The person who dismissed her because she's not Frankel, one of the greatest straight turf milers ever (he'd have lost to Goldikova, FWIW, esp on a tight, 2 turn, firm American track), well, yep, compared to him, she's clearly just the Australian Pepper's Pride. My money is on Winx against Frankel at 2 turns at 10f.

I'll take Winx over a 6 race "phenom" any day. Racing needs Winxes. 26 wins isn't just sub-par competition, it is her ability to make her own luck.


I love Winx, and think she is great for the sport.


The question in the original post was "Best horse".


I think Frankel is better, and gave forth that opinion.

[steveb]

She runs against males.

She runs and wins from 7f to 10f regularly.

She's a closer, closing into large crowded fields, always going wide.

She has maintained her form for years.

She might not beat Euros, esp since she prefers firm-ish turf, but there is no American turf horse who could beat her, outside of our greatest, and even then she'd be coming at the end, and have an honest chance. There are no Euros with her range. They have sprinters, milers, and stayers. They do not have sprinter-miler-stayers. Just like us.

The person who dismissed her because she's not Frankel, one of the greatest straight turf milers ever (he'd have lost to Goldikova, FWIW, esp on a tight, 2 turn, firm American track), well, yep, compared to him, she's clearly just the Australian Pepper's Pride. My money is on Winx against Frankel at 2 turns at 10f.

Australia is 30 hours from anywhere. Only Goldophin and Coolmore, with their own fleet of specialized planes and runways, travel that far. Winx's connections talked to Black Cavier's connections, who told them the ship was very hard on her. They also are not wealthy. They aren't 200 Chinese Billionaires.

Australians care about Australian races most. Doesn't matter what we think of her, in Australia she is in the realm of Phar Lap.

I'll take Winx over a 6 race "phenom" any day. Racing needs Winxes. 26 wins isn't just sub-par competition, it is her ability to make her own luck.


that's a great post, although i would think winx owners would be wealthy now if they were not before!

and further, why would she need to travel when there is so much more money to be won in australia.

[whisperlunch]

Papillon, fantastic reply. Wow

Let’s send over a couple of our best horses to the outback to beat her ass. 😂

[TheGarMan]

In fairness:

The horse doesn't know that she has not raced in Europe.

The horse doesn't even know she did not race in the United States.

All the horse knows is that she did run down every single foe it had in her sights for 26 races....

That is saying something.

How many US horses even compete in 20 races? 25 races? Let alone win them all?

A quick estimation says she probably beat 250- 275 horses during "the streak"

Someday very soon, she will get clipped at the wire, and she, the streak, and her legacy will be left to the annals of time.

And that's good enough for me. :headbanger:

[GMB@BP]

The question was is she the best horse, her amazing win streak is a great accomplishment but to be the best you have to beat the best, of which she has never done. She beat a couple good horses on her home turf but I think she would have several losses had she competed in the best races in Europe and the USA.

Maybe the title of the thread should something different, people are not really addressing the question.

[woodbinepmi]

Papillon, fantastic reply. Wow

Let’s send over a couple of our best horses to the outback to beat her ass. ��

Please give me the names of the horses here in the States that could fly to the other side of the world that could beat her on the grass going 1,200 to 1,400 metres.

[whisperlunch]

Woodbine are you serious ? First I was joking. My point was if they won’t send her to the Breeders Cup then let’s send a couple of our best to race her. To see if she’s really the best. How far is 1200 -1400 meters is that a mile ish ?


I think the winx is unbelievable.

But I’d like to see where she stands versus US horses.

[PaceAdvantage]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtVTFb9Tf7kBoy was a monster...nice video :ThmbUp:

[clicknow]

But I’d like to see where she stands versus US horses.

I'd like to see where U.S. horses stand in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe

[clicknow]

How many US horses even compete in 20 races? 25 races? Let alone win them all?

.....and seemingly getting better at age 6?



We have 2 Triple Crown winners now who can't even race past the same year they won their TC in. At 3 years old they are finished.

[biggestal99]

I'd like to see where U.S. horses stand in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe

Lets see. Nowhere. Soft French Turf in October just before the BC.

wont happen anytime soon.

Allan

[Nitro]

The question was is she the best horse, her amazing win streak is a great accomplishment but to be the best you have to beat the best, of which she has never done. She beat a couple good horses on her home turf but I think she would have several losses had she competed in the best races in Europe and the USA.

Maybe the title of the thread should something different, people are not really addressing the question.
Oh Really?
So Winx hasn’t’ beat much?!

How about Highland Reel for starters?
27 Starts – 10 Wins (7 GR1’s) – 6 Placings ( 4 GR1’s) – 3 Shows (All GR1)
Owner(s):
Michael B. Tabor - Mrs. John 'Susan' Magnier - Derrick Smith -
Trainer: Aidan P. O'Brien
Bred:
(IRL) by Hveger Syndicate
Pedigree: Galileo - Hveger by Danehill

Pedigree | Siblings | Progeny

Galileo
Sadler's Wells
Northern Dancer

Fairy Bridge

Urban Sea
Miswaki

Allegretta

Hveger
Danehill
Danzig

Razyana

Circles Of Gold
Marscay

Olympic Aim


Highland Reel - Race Results & Past Performances

12/10/17-R4 Highland Reel 1st Sha 1 1/2m T Hong Kong Vase-G1 3+ Highland Reel Talismanic Tosen Basil 2:26.23
11/04/17-R11 Highland Reel 3rd Dmr 1 1/2m T Breeders' Cup Turf-G1 3+ Talismanic Beach Patrol Highland Reel 2:26.19
10/21/17-R5 Highland Reel 3rd Asc 1 1/4 m T Champion Stakes-G1 3+ Cracksman Poet's Word Highland Reel 2:11.75
07/29/17-R4 Highland Reel 4th Asc 1 1/2m T King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes-G1 3+ Enable Ulysses Idaho 2:36.22
06/21/17-R4 Highland Reel 1st Asc 1 1/4 m T Prince of Wales's Stakes-G1 4+ Highland Reel Decorated Knight Ulysses 2:05.04
06/02/17-R3 Highland Reel 1st Eps 1 1/2m T Coronation Cup-G1 4+ Highland Reel Frontiersman Hawkbill 2:33.34
03/25/17-R8 Highland Reel 7th Mey 1 1/2m T Dubai Sheema Classic-G1 3+ Jack Hobbs Seventh Heaven Postponed 2:32.39
12/11/16-R4 Highland Reel 2nd Sha 1 1/2m T Hong Kong Vase-G1 3+ Satono Crown Highland Reel One Foot In Heaven 2:26.22
11/05/16-R9 Highland Reel 1st SA 1 1/2m T Breeders' Cup Turf-G1 3+ Highland Reel Flintshire Found 2:23.00
10/02/16-R4 Highland Reel 2nd Cha 1 1/2m T Prix De l'Arc de Triomphe-G1 3+ Found Highland Reel Order Of St George 2:23.61
09/10/16-R7 Highland Reel 7th Leo 1 1/4 m T Irish Champion Stakes-G1 3+ Almanzor Found Minding 2:08.93
08/17/16-R4 Highland Reel 2nd Yor 1 5/16 m T Juddmonte International-G1 3+ Postponed Highland Reel Mutakayyef 2:06.58
07/23/16-R5 Highland Reel 1st Asc 1 1/2m T King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes-G1 3+ Highland Reel Wings Of Desire Dartmouth 2:28.97
06/18/16-R3 Highland Reel 2nd Asc 1 1/2m T Hardwicke Stakes-G2 4+ Dartmouth Highland Reel Almodovar 2:32.06
04/24/16-R8 Highland Reel 8th Sha 1 1/4 m T Audemars Piguet QE II Cup-G1 3+ Werther Military Attack Blazing Speed 2:01.32
03/26/16-R8 Highland Reel 4th Mey 1 1/2m T Dubai Sheema Classic-G1 3+ Postponed Duramente Last Impact 2:26.97
12/13/15-R4 Highland Reel 1st Sha 1 1/2m T Hong Kong Vase-G1 3+ Highland Reel Flintshire Dariyan 2:28.43
10/24/15-R9 Highland Reel 3rd Moo 1 1/4 m T Cox Plate-G1 3+ Winx Criterion Highland Reel 2:02.98
09/12/15-R5 Highland Reel 5th Leo 1 1/4 m T Irish Champion Stakes-G1 3+ Golden Horn Found Free Eagle 2:05.41
08/15/15-R8 Highland Reel 1st AP 1 1/4 m T Secretariat Stakes-G1 3 Highland Reel Closing Bell Force the Pass 2:02.26
07/29/15-R2 Highland Reel 1st Goo 1 1/2m T Gordon Stakes-G3 3 Highland Reel Scottish California Disegno 2:34.94
06/27/15-R7 Highland Reel 5th Cur 1 1/2m T Irish Derby-G1 3 Jack Hobbs Storm The Stars Giovanni Canaletto 2:34.93
05/31/15-R4 Highland Reel 2nd Cha 1 5/16 m T Prix Du Jockey Club-G1 3 New Bay Highland Reel Green Dispatch 2:05.69
05/10/15-R4 Highland Reel 6th PLong 1 mile T Poule d'Essai des Poulains-G1 3 Make Believe New Bay Mr Owen 1:36.85
07/30/14-R4 Highland Reel 1st Goo 7 f T Vintage Stakes-G2 2 Highland Reel Tupi Room Key 1:26.81
07/01/14-R1 Highland Reel 1st Gow 1 mile T Maiden 2 Highland Reel Taqaseem Hall Of Fame 1:38.40
06/12/14-R2 Highland Reel 2nd Leo 7 f T Maiden 2 Tombelaine Highland Reel Crescent 1:31.48

[GMB@BP]

Oh Really?
So Winx hasn’t’ beat much?!

How about Highland Reel for starters?
27 Starts – 10 Wins (7 GR1’s) – 6 Placings ( 4 GR1’s) – 3 Shows (All GR1)
Owner(s):
Michael B. Tabor - Mrs. John 'Susan' Magnier - Derrick Smith -
Trainer: Aidan P. O'Brien
Bred:
(IRL) by Hveger Syndicate
Pedigree: Galileo - Hveger by Danehill

Pedigree | Siblings | Progeny

Galileo
Sadler's Wells
Northern Dancer

Fairy Bridge

Urban Sea
Miswaki

Allegretta

Hveger
Danehill
Danzig

Razyana

Circles Of Gold
Marscay

Olympic Aim


Highland Reel - Race Results & Past Performances

12/10/17-R4 Highland Reel 1st Sha 1 1/2m T Hong Kong Vase-G1 3+ Highland Reel Talismanic Tosen Basil 2:26.23
11/04/17-R11 Highland Reel 3rd Dmr 1 1/2m T Breeders' Cup Turf-G1 3+ Talismanic Beach Patrol Highland Reel 2:26.19
10/21/17-R5 Highland Reel 3rd Asc 1 1/4 m T Champion Stakes-G1 3+ Cracksman Poet's Word Highland Reel 2:11.75
07/29/17-R4 Highland Reel 4th Asc 1 1/2m T King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes-G1 3+ Enable Ulysses Idaho 2:36.22
06/21/17-R4 Highland Reel 1st Asc 1 1/4 m T Prince of Wales's Stakes-G1 4+ Highland Reel Decorated Knight Ulysses 2:05.04
06/02/17-R3 Highland Reel 1st Eps 1 1/2m T Coronation Cup-G1 4+ Highland Reel Frontiersman Hawkbill 2:33.34
03/25/17-R8 Highland Reel 7th Mey 1 1/2m T Dubai Sheema Classic-G1 3+ Jack Hobbs Seventh Heaven Postponed 2:32.39
12/11/16-R4 Highland Reel 2nd Sha 1 1/2m T Hong Kong Vase-G1 3+ Satono Crown Highland Reel One Foot In Heaven 2:26.22
11/05/16-R9 Highland Reel 1st SA 1 1/2m T Breeders' Cup Turf-G1 3+ Highland Reel Flintshire Found 2:23.00
10/02/16-R4 Highland Reel 2nd Cha 1 1/2m T Prix De l'Arc de Triomphe-G1 3+ Found Highland Reel Order Of St George 2:23.61
09/10/16-R7 Highland Reel 7th Leo 1 1/4 m T Irish Champion Stakes-G1 3+ Almanzor Found Minding 2:08.93
08/17/16-R4 Highland Reel 2nd Yor 1 5/16 m T Juddmonte International-G1 3+ Postponed Highland Reel Mutakayyef 2:06.58
07/23/16-R5 Highland Reel 1st Asc 1 1/2m T King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes-G1 3+ Highland Reel Wings Of Desire Dartmouth 2:28.97
06/18/16-R3 Highland Reel 2nd Asc 1 1/2m T Hardwicke Stakes-G2 4+ Dartmouth Highland Reel Almodovar 2:32.06
04/24/16-R8 Highland Reel 8th Sha 1 1/4 m T Audemars Piguet QE II Cup-G1 3+ Werther Military Attack Blazing Speed 2:01.32
03/26/16-R8 Highland Reel 4th Mey 1 1/2m T Dubai Sheema Classic-G1 3+ Postponed Duramente Last Impact 2:26.97
12/13/15-R4 Highland Reel 1st Sha 1 1/2m T Hong Kong Vase-G1 3+ Highland Reel Flintshire Dariyan 2:28.43
10/24/15-R9 Highland Reel 3rd Moo 1 1/4 m T Cox Plate-G1 3+ Winx Criterion Highland Reel 2:02.98
09/12/15-R5 Highland Reel 5th Leo 1 1/4 m T Irish Champion Stakes-G1 3+ Golden Horn Found Free Eagle 2:05.41
08/15/15-R8 Highland Reel 1st AP 1 1/4 m T Secretariat Stakes-G1 3 Highland Reel Closing Bell Force the Pass 2:02.26
07/29/15-R2 Highland Reel 1st Goo 1 1/2m T Gordon Stakes-G3 3 Highland Reel Scottish California Disegno 2:34.94
06/27/15-R7 Highland Reel 5th Cur 1 1/2m T Irish Derby-G1 3 Jack Hobbs Storm The Stars Giovanni Canaletto 2:34.93
05/31/15-R4 Highland Reel 2nd Cha 1 5/16 m T Prix Du Jockey Club-G1 3 New Bay Highland Reel Green Dispatch 2:05.69
05/10/15-R4 Highland Reel 6th PLong 1 mile T Poule d'Essai des Poulains-G1 3 Make Believe New Bay Mr Owen 1:36.85
07/30/14-R4 Highland Reel 1st Goo 7 f T Vintage Stakes-G2 2 Highland Reel Tupi Room Key 1:26.81
07/01/14-R1 Highland Reel 1st Gow 1 mile T Maiden 2 Highland Reel Taqaseem Hall Of Fame 1:38.40
06/12/14-R2 Highland Reel 2nd Leo 7 f T Maiden 2 Tombelaine Highland Reel Crescent 1:31.48



That is one, can you give me the others, hence the use of the word "couple" which means approximately 2.

Good grief, sorry to upset the pretty pony club.

[Fager Fan]

The “great” who ducked the derby and the arc.

Allan

And used a stablemate to aid his runs.

[Fager Fan]

In fairness:

The horse doesn't know that she has not raced in Europe.

The horse doesn't even know she did not race in the United States.

All the horse knows is that she did run down every single foe it had in her sights for 26 races....

That is saying something.

How many US horses even compete in 20 races? 25 races? Let alone win them all?

A quick estimation says she probably beat 250- 275 horses during "the streak"

Someday very soon, she will get clipped at the wire, and she, the streak, and her legacy will be left to the annals of time.

And that's good enough for me. :headbanger:

I’ve never understood “the horse didn’t know” comments. What does it matter if the horse did or didn’t know?

[clicknow]

Oh Really?
So Winx hasn’t’ beat much?!

How about Highland Reel for starters?

You mean Highland Reel, who 8 U.S. horses couldn't get past in the BC Turf?
The same horse our Belmont winner couldn't get past in the Secretariat Stakes?

Highland Reel w/27 starts in 7 countries on 4 continents with 7 G1 victories who has flown 111,846 miles in his career from Ireland to other places for races?

Naw. Winx hasn't beat much. She needs to prove herself! :)

[classhandicapper]

The 2015 cox plate was a pretty good race and winx ripped highland reel a new one at almost equal weights.

Allan

That race made an impression on me also.

To be honest, it's so obvious, I can visually see she's great by the way she accelerates and finishes. Over and above that, horses don't string 26 in a row over other horses they are just a few lengths better than. They string 26 when they are totally dominant and can overcome wide trips, going against the pace, going against the bias or race flow, when they have a mildly off day, when the opposition fires a peak etc..

I have little doubt she would win at the Group 1 level in Europe if she fired her "A" race. She wouldn't be as dominant, but neither would anyone else...other than Frankel who is the best turf miler I have ever seen (and it pains me to say that because I loved Lure and Wise Dan).

I really wish they would ship her or someone would go there to take her on. I don't think they should have to ship around the world always looking for the toughest challenge. Everyone knows where she is if they want to take her on. Plus the connections must feel an obligation to the home tracks and racing fans to campaign her at home. However, I think there's some kind of obligation to the horse to take on a really big challenge at least once or twice to prove that greatness.

Zenyatta's connections took some heat for mostly staying home in CA and running in the same Grade 1 series there, but they did ship to the Apple Blossom to take on the prior year's Eclipse winning filly once and then went searching for Rachel in the Apple Blossom later (who wasn't up to the task at 4). They also went into 2 Classics.

Black Caviar also made a trip.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Years ago some horse people believed horses with white feet had weaker legs. Frankel certainly dispels that tale.

[Gamblor]

FWIW that first up win the other day by Winx out in the inferior ground was about 6 lengths off her best, on my figures.

[RunDustyRun]

Alpha Centauri would run her off he feet

[biggestal99]

Years ago some horse people believed horses with white feet had weaker legs. Frankel certainly dispels that tale.

I think Nijinsky dispelled that old wives tale year before and he actually ran in the Derby and completed the triple crown.

Allan

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Winx is absolutely top class. She is a class above other good horses. And she has shown she can reliably produce really high rating runs when it counts. She has already done enough to join the ranks of the all time greats of Australian racing

However the winning streak of 26 wins in a row is not real. The thing is racing in Australia and elsewhere struggles to capture people's attention and stay in the news. Those running racing have cottoned onto the idea that the way to win back the public is by having "stars". And the easiest way to have a "star" is for a horse to have a big winning streak. Hence you get Frankel, Black Caviar, Zenyatta and Winx. And so far this particular marketing strategy is working. People talk about these horses and some people even believe that Frankel is the best horse that ever lived even though he never travelled more than a short distance from his home

With Winx rival trainers simply don't aim to peak their horses against Winx but instead aim at races where she won't be running. In addition Aussie racing has allowed 2 trainers in Waller (who trains Winx) and Weir to amass a crazy number of horses in their stables. So these 2 trainers control a good percentage of the best horses in Australia. Waller won't be trying to beat his superstar with one of his own horses. So all it takes is Weir to avoid taking on Winx and she can avoid almost 50% of the good horses in Australia. Weir almost beat Winx in the Cox Plate last year with Humidor but apart from that he has not shown any inclination to take Winx on

When was the last time 2 great horses clashed? Even if Winx went to Ascot the opposition would consist of one B grader, and a couple of also rans. The racing marketing people won't allow any great clash to happen as one star will lose its shine as a result. Years ago Hong Kong had a horse that had a big winning streak = Silent Witness. Everyone talked about him but then one day he lost and then you never heard of him again

[Thomas Roulston]

The same debate is going on in mixed martial arts, where Khabib Nurmagomedov is 26-0, and may fight Conor McGregor next.

[Gamblor]

The same debate could be going on in snail racing for all I care about mixed martial arts...