West Coast Weather Bias? Breeders' Cup back to Santa Anita in 2019, Del Mar 2021

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1030067295463268358

[RunForTheRoses]

After this soggy Saratoga meet it is understandable. But it would be nice to see it at Belmont once in a while. Plus SA is a peculiar track.

[Secondbest]

What's the problem between the Breeders Cup and NYRA?

[dilanesp]

Some observations:

1. The obvious one-- Breeders' Cups are mostly in California for the same reason Super Bowls are mostly in warm weather places. You get good weather not only for the event (which is important-- you don't want an off track that screws up the results of all the championship races) but for all the parties and hospitality and corporate stuff and ancillary events that are put on.

2. I was obviously wrong about Keeneland and Del Mar. They must have made money in both places. This suggests that live attendance is not very important to the BC business model.

Long term, I still don't think this is a good thing for the BC. The BC aspires to have the same recognition in the public's mind as the Triple Crown does. But part of that recognition is gigantic live attendance. Wealthy, casual fans travel to the Kentucky Derby just like they travel to the Super Bowl, the NBA All-Star Game, or a big championship fight. Those empty stands at Del Mar looked terrible in person and terrible on television.

Keeneland, of course, drew very well in 2014, but bear in mind that it was the first time and they had American Pharoah running. I am curious what they will draw the second time around.

3. The various bids that were being kicked around, especially Laurel, were obviously rejected. I would guess this is good news for people who want to see the Preakness stay at Pimlico, because I bet part of what happened is that Laurel did not present realistic plans for expanding their plant to handle the BC (which they would have to do in order to move the Preakness too).

4. NYRA, as far as I know, doesn't bid for the BC anymore. The thing everyone needs to know about NYRA is that the least successful BC's were all at Aqueduct and Belmont. The weather is cold, the races get run into the cold and gloom of the late fall afternoon (because television wants that BC Classic post time as late as possible and Belmont doesn't have lights), and New York City is generally uninterested in the event as there is plenty else to do.

5. None of this has anything to do with "fairness" or recognition of particular racing circuits. The BC is a valuable property and Breeders' Cup Limited needs to make money staging the thing. They aren't going to invest a lot of effort in "rotating it around" when they make a boatload of money every time they run it at Santa Anita or Churchill (as they do).

6. What happened to Churchill?

[GMB@BP]

Some observations:

1. The obvious one-- Breeders' Cups are mostly in California for the same reason Super Bowls are mostly in warm weather places. You get good weather not only for the event (which is important-- you don't want an off track that screws up the results of all the championship races) but for all the parties and hospitality and corporate stuff and ancillary events that are put on.

2. I was obviously wrong about Keeneland and Del Mar. They must have made money in both places. This suggests that live attendance is not very important to the BC business model.

Long term, I still don't think this is a good thing for the BC. The BC aspires to have the same recognition in the public's mind as the Triple Crown does. But part of that recognition is gigantic live attendance. Wealthy, casual fans travel to the Kentucky Derby just like they travel to the Super Bowl, the NBA All-Star Game, or a big championship fight. Those empty stands at Del Mar looked terrible in person and terrible on television.

Keeneland, of course, drew very well in 2014, but bear in mind that it was the first time and they had American Pharoah running. I am curious what they will draw the second time around.

3. The various bids that were being kicked around, especially Laurel, were obviously rejected. I would guess this is good news for people who want to see the Preakness stay at Pimlico, because I bet part of what happened is that Laurel did not present realistic plans for expanding their plant to handle the BC (which they would have to do in order to move the Preakness too).

4. NYRA, as far as I know, doesn't bid for the BC anymore. The thing everyone needs to know about NYRA is that the least successful BC's were all at Aqueduct and Belmont. The weather is cold, the races get run into the cold and gloom of the late fall afternoon (because television wants that BC Classic post time as late as possible and Belmont doesn't have lights), and New York City is generally uninterested in the event as there is plenty else to do.

5. None of this has anything to do with "fairness" or recognition of particular racing circuits. The BC is a valuable property and Breeders' Cup Limited needs to make money staging the thing. They aren't going to invest a lot of effort in "rotating it around" when they make a boatload of money every time they run it at Santa Anita or Churchill (as they do).

6. What happened to Churchill?

Its at Churchill this year

east coast and ky have the triple crown, i am not sure why its such a big deal to have it on the west coast. seems to even it out a bit, plus the weather advantage.

[1GCFAN]

I am for the west coast tracks so we can have fast and firm. I know some Euros and East Coast horsemen like it but most still come. I actually prefer the Del Mar turf course.



Churchill has most seating but you really run the risk of bad weather not to mention shortened daylight.

[horses4courses]

Shame there isn't a quality racing venue in Florida anymore.
Warm weather is important in planning these types of events.
No wonder California gets the lion's share of BC dates.

[JustRalph]

The curse of Monmouth memories remain. It was stupid to hold it there.

Move the Br. Cup up a month and it would change everything

[dilanesp]

The curse of Monmouth memories remain. It was stupid to hold it there.

Move the Br. Cup up a month and it would change everything

The way trainers rest their horses, it would ruin Saratoga and Del Mar if they did that.

[Suff]

Some observations:

4. NYRA, as far as I know, doesn't bid for the BC anymore. The thing everyone needs to know about NYRA is that the least successful BC's were all at Aqueduct and Belmont. The weather is cold, the races get run into the cold and gloom of the late fall afternoon (because television wants that BC Classic post time as late as possible and Belmont doesn't have lights), and New York City is generally uninterested in the event as there is plenty else to do.



Weather's a real crap shoot for sure, but in defense of the Breeders Cup at Belmont. The last two, 2001 & 2005. 2001 was 30 days after September 11th and the entire country, and NYC metro in particular was flat on its back still.

I was there, it was a sad time.

Its also a lot about money. Its like hosting the Olympics, if you're not careful , it can cost you money for something that comes and go's , while the Event owners make bank.$

Santa Anita and Churchill are much better at Revenue sharing because they have more premium boxes and tents to monetize, while the event owners take the TV money.

[biggestal99]

The curse of Monmouth memories remain. It was stupid to hold it there.

Move the Br. Cup up a month and it would change everything

I hit the juvy turf super with nownownow.

Wasn’t that stupid, it was rainy not stupid.

Allan

[castaway01]

NYRA doesn't want it. Laurel can't handle it. That leaves CA and KY, and that's where it's going to be. Pretty simple.

[JustRalph]

The way trainers rest their horses, it would ruin Saratoga and Del Mar if they did that.

Yeah, I agree. But in two years neither of those meets will be worth watching.

[JustRalph]

I hit the juvy turf super with nownownow.

Wasn’t that stupid, it was rainy not stupid.

Allan

It was stupid. They were lucky it stayed warm........

[Brass Hat]

Del Mar was great, very well organized, hope to make it there again. I spent a lot of time in the infield and paddock, spoke with a lot of people, really enjoyed it. Glad it's coming back there.

I attended the Monmouth Breeders Cup. It rained mostly on Friday, Saturday was drizzly but the upside was sitting in seats that they were charging an arm and a leg for because no one would sit outside there. Plus watching Midnight Lute and Curlin. The rain didn't bother me, rains at Saratoga all the time.

Speaking of another niche sport I follow, the college hockey championships are in Buffalo, Pittsburgh and Detroit the next few years, and the NCAA charges a good price for tickets there, after they discovered there is a hard core following. I've enjoyed visiting those cities, but I would rather spend my money travelling to California or Lexington.

[Tom]

The way trainers rest their horses, it would ruin Saratoga and Del Mar if they did that.

How?
Toga barely fills now.

I'm guessing West Coast gives the biggest viewing and betting markets due to the time.

[dilanesp]

How?
Toga barely fills now.

I'm guessing West Coast gives the biggest viewing and betting markets due to the time.

Churchill has lights. That helps.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/BH_JBalan/status/1030496455373381632

[anotherCAfan]

As happy as I am to see the Breeders' Cup out here (Santa Anita and Del Mar), I'd still like to see the event moved around the country, as was its original intent. Most of these are a pipe dream, but too bad we won't see this event at:
Belmont
Monmouth
Laurel
Lone Star
Arlington
Woodbine
Golden Gate (I know the synthetic is prohibitive)

[dilanesp]

As happy as I am to see the Breeders' Cup out here (Santa Anita and Del Mar), I'd still like to see the event moved around the country, as was its original intent. Most of these are a pipe dream, but too bad we won't see this event at:
Belmont
Monmouth
Laurel
Lone Star
Arlington
Woodbine
Golden Gate (I know the synthetic is prohibitive)

Can we stop with this "original intent"? The original intent was to run mostly in California. That's what John Gaines said, and 3 of the first 4 BC's were here.

Rotation came later after smaller tracks started offering very attractive terms to the BC to get the event (which has dried up).

[Tom]

Do we even need a BC anymore?
I would not miss it.

[GMB@BP]

Do we even need a BC anymore?
I would not miss it.

while I do agree it has caused much harm to the fall schedule it at least to a degree brings the horses together.

[castaway01]

Do we even need a BC anymore?
I would not miss it.

Racing would miss that $166 million in handle from last year though.

[dilanesp]

while I do agree it has caused much harm to the fall schedule it at least to a degree brings the horses together.

In addition to the loss of a big day of racing, the reality is without the BC most trainers would just duck competition if they could help it.

This was why I was so incensed with the Rachel Alexandra people. If someone decides the Woodward is more important than the BC Classic, it won't save the Woodward and make it a championship race. It will just mean there won't be one st all, as the West Coast srar runs in the Pacific Classic while the East Coast star runs in the Woodward.

It's either the BC, or no championship races at all.

[anotherCAfan]

Can we stop with this "original intent"? The original intent was to run mostly in California. That's what John Gaines said, and 3 of the first 4 BC's were here.

Rotation came later after smaller tracks started offering very attractive terms to the BC to get the event (which has dried up).
It still pains me that the place that hosted two of those first three in CA, didn't get another one after 1997... and now that place doesn't exist anymore.

[RunForTheRoses]

Can we stop with this "original intent"? The original intent was to run mostly in California. That's what John Gaines said, and 3 of the first 4 BC's were here.

Rotation came later after smaller tracks started offering very attractive terms to the BC to get the event (which has dried up).

Do you have a source for that because Im old enough to remember and don't recall that. Have not been able to find a source. Also, although 3 of first 4 was Cali (second New York) 5 6 7 8 and 9 were all not in the Golden State.

[Valuist]

NYRA doesn't want it. Laurel can't handle it. That leaves CA and KY, and that's where it's going to be. Pretty simple.

I've heard Laurel will make a push for it.

[dilanesp]

Do you have a source for that because Im old enough to remember and don't recall that. Have not been able to find a source. Also, although 3 of first 4 was Cali (second New York) 5 6 7 8 and 9 were all not in the Golden State.

Ted Basset took over. And he wanted to move it around. Plus, there were big people in the sport like Ogden Phipps and Mack Miller who did not like California tracks.

I remember Gaines coming out here in 1984 to do publicity for the thing. He said that most of them would be in California because of weather. That was the original idea.

EDIT: Haven't found a quote from Gaines yet, but here is his friend John Nerud saying their original intent was California and New York only, to try to generate TV ratings. They only went to Churchill after they didn't get the ratings they were looking for.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-11-04/sports/8802140343_1_breeders-cup-john-nerud-racing

[dilanesp]

I've heard Laurel will make a push for it.

They did. The BC said no.

Now to be fair, DMR got turned down a few times before getting a yes.

[Andy Asaro]

Ted Basset took over. And he wanted to move it around. Plus, there were big people in the sport like Ogden Phipps and Mack Miller who did not like California tracks.

I remember Gaines coming out here in 1984 to do publicity for the thing. He said that most of them would be in California because of weather. That was the original idea.

With no Derby, Belmont, or Preakness here it makes even more sense to have it out here. Very surprised they haven't moved Pegasus here. They can't keep running that screwed up distance with the short run to the turn. Gotta increase distance and or run up if stays at Gulfstream IMO

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/BreedersCup/status/1030567662739496961

[Andy Asaro]

They just said the U.S. Open is at Torrey Pines again in 2021.

[Redboard]

Santa Anita is great place to hold it. I wouldn't mind if it were held there every year. One drawback to that idea is it would become too predictable handicappingwise.

I would like to see it held somewhere in Florida. which is the most logical warm-weather state. Tom Durkin, in one of his farewell speeches, thought Hialeah would be a good place. I've never been there and I don't know how feasible that would be. The place is undergoing a $1 billion renovation, but I doubt if they plan to add any stands and don't think it will be suitable for a BC.

And c'mon Tom, you say that every year but when the racing starts, you're glued to the TV. :cool:

[Tom]

Well, I play it because it is there, but I would much rather have better racing all yer long- BC has destroyed much of the good racing season and pretty much all of the fall championship season - it is now the fall rest break.

[Afleet]

Santa Anita is probably the best place to hold the BC even though KY is a lot closer for me

[Andy Asaro]

Santa Anita is probably the best place to hold the BC even though KY is a lot closer for me

San Diego is a lot better than L.A. IMO. Not even close as far as people enjoying the area

[GMB@BP]

San Diego is a lot better than L.A. IMO. Not even close as far as people enjoying the area

If they keep the numbers down then I agree, Santa Anita can handle the bigger crowds better.

Either place is great for me, too bad the prices have gotten such that its a bit cost prohibitive for the normal guy to go. Only time I have gone was when I got free tickets, which I have been lucky has been 7-8 times.

[Tom]

Racing would miss that $166 million in handle from last year though.

Yeah, but I could not care less about that.

[elhelmete]

Yeah, but I could not care less about that.

Ever think of following a different sport?

[Tom]

No.
What does them making money have to with me?
Do you feel obligated to the tracks?

[Tom]

Case in point. Gunverra 1 start this year.
It's almost labor day.
Probably one more in the Woodward, then right to the BC.
Maybe one between but not holding my breath.

[Redboard]

Well, I play it because it is there, but I would much rather have better racing all yer long- BC has destroyed much of the good racing season and pretty much all of the fall championship season - it is now the fall rest break.


I didn't get into horse racing until Smarty Jones, so I'll take your word on it.

Although I've noticed that the 1980 Woodward had a field of 0ne.

[GMB@BP]

Case in point. Gunverra 1 start this year.
It's almost labor day.
Probably one more in the Woodward, then right to the BC.
Maybe one between but not holding my breath.

while I agree with your point though gunnavera won last week and then was also in dubai...so got a whopping to starts!

[cj]

while I agree with your point though gunnavera won last week and then was also in dubai...so got a whopping to starts!

Pegasus too, so up to three starts. We keep this thread going long enough we might have him running once a week soon!

[Tom]

I didn't get into horse racing until Smarty Jones, so I'll take your word on it.

Although I've noticed that the 1980 Woodward had a field of 0ne.

They were afraid to to face that one. Back then, there were some REAL race horses. :rolleyes:

OK, Gunner has run early, but how about West Coast then?

[Lemon Drop Husker]

They can run the BC at Santa Anita every year. It is perfect.


Del Mar was fantastic. Keeneland was great as well.


In the end, you do need "weather" in November. Churchill sucked the 2 years I went, and they decided to put it "under the lights" when it was legitimately 38 degrees. Sucked. And I'm from Nebraska.


I'd love to see it at Belmont, but November is a tough pull. The exact reason why I'm not going this year to Churchill after 10 years of attending.


Weather is huge. Especially when more than half of the people will be outside. Standing outside for 12 hours or more in 40 degree weather isn't much fun. Ever.

[Afleet]

I didn't get into horse racing until Smarty Jones, so I'll take your word on it.

Although I've noticed that the 1980 Woodward had a field of 0ne.

but that was a great one

[Afleet]

still think they should split the BC into two venues. All turf races on Friday at say SA and all the dirt races at the FG or OP (as an example) that way you can add new venues. New Orleans would be fun for the BC-plenty of things to do

[Lemon Drop Husker]

still think they should split the BC into two venues. All turf races on Friday at say SA and all the dirt races at the FG or OP (as an example) that way you can add new venues. New Orleans would be fun for the BC-plenty of things to do


I'll be dead honest. That sounds like a horrible idea.


For some dude sitting at home or at a simulcasting joint, sure, it sounds great. For the people that actually attend the event?

[michiken]

I want a BC at Kentucky Downs!

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I want a BC at Kentucky Downs!


:headbanger:



The Dirt races will be held on some local country road. You can't go wrong with Kentucky Downs. I'm all in. :ThmbUp:

[castaway01]

still think they should split the BC into two venues. All turf races on Friday at say SA and all the dirt races at the FG or OP (as an example) that way you can add new venues. New Orleans would be fun for the BC-plenty of things to do

Charging the same admission, parking, etc. prices in order to see half the number of races live DOES sound like something horse racing would do, but probably not a good idea, PR-wise.

[Tom]

Charging the same GROSSLY INFLATED admission, parking, etc. prices in order to see half the number of races live DOES sound like something horse racing would do, but probably not a good idea, PR-wise.

FTFY

[ronsmac]

still think they should split the BC into two venues. All turf races on Friday at say SA and all the dirt races at the FG or OP (as an example) that way you can add new venues. New Orleans would be fun for the BC-plenty of things to doSmh.

[Thomas Roulston]

You can't have sloppy tracks in the Breeders' Cup. It renders the races undefinitive.

[biggestal99]

You can't have sloppy tracks in the Breeders' Cup. It renders the races undefinitive.

Curlin's win at Monmouth was definitive.

Allan

[dilanesp]

Curlin's win at Monmouth was definitive.

Allan

So was Cigar's at Belmont.

But it definitely wouldn't be grest if you had a mud freak like Exaggerator was a couple of years ago winning a big BC field. Easy Goer losing to Is It True wasn't so great.