Tournaments

[JeremyJet]

Is there a old thread someone can point me to that can explain everything about the different kind of tournaments that are out there? I was just at DRF.com and i'm just overwhelmed by all the tournaments they have listed. Seems there are "tournaments" everyday. Head-to-head tournaments at DRF? And info would be appreciated.

[RunForTheRoses]

I'll try and post more later but for now...I usually play on 3 sites, drfqualify, horsetourneys and horseplayers. horseplayers is run by horsetourneys and took the place of nhcqualify and bcqualify which were run by drf.


Horseplayers only has NHC and BCBC.


Horsetourneys has some NHC but mainly has all the fantastic brick and mortar events-the Del Mar and Toga plus others.


drf has non-NHC and BCBC such as Del Mar, Toga, Keeneland and their own World Series (play in their free tourneys every Wednesday and most? Thursdays).


Basically, there are low level feeders, qualifiers and main tourneys. Usually, not always, it is feeder>qualifier>Main Tourney and if you win main tourney you have entry to Del Mar's next week 8000 tourney for instance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1nw-G4_bVk

[GMB@BP]

Is there a old thread someone can point me to that can explain everything about the different kind of tournaments that are out there? I was just at DRF.com and i'm just overwhelmed by all the tournaments they have listed. Seems there are "tournaments" everyday. Head-to-head tournaments at DRF? And info would be appreciated.

What are your questions?

I created this thread last year but it was more general discussion.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141094&highlight=tournament

To me it breaks down into a few categories. This is mythical win place (show)

Head 2 Head...this is very straight forward.
Cash Tourney - play for prizes, usually more than one slot is paid (2nd, 3rd etc) based on number of entries.
Feeders-These have no monetary prize for the winner but gets them into a more expensive feeder or qualifier.

a qualifier gets you into the final round of a tourney. A feeder gets you into the next round on your way to that qualifier.

There is pick and prays, all picks are due before first event.
Live which closes a minute to post.

There are also bankroll games, which you start with a bankroll, which plays like you are at the track making bets trying to earn the most money over your foes.

Lots of options, I think its great.

[JeremyJet]

I'll try and post more later but for now...I usually play on 3 sites, drfqualify, horsetourneys and horseplayers. horseplayers is run by horsetourneys and took the place of nhcqualify and bcqualify which were run by drf.


Horseplayers only has NHC and BCBC.


Horsetourneys has some NHC but mainly has all the fantastic brick and mortar events-the Del Mar and Toga plus others.


drf has non-NHC and BCBC such as Del Mar, Toga, Keeneland and their own World Series (play in their free tourneys every Wednesday and most? Thursdays).


Basically, there are low level feeders, qualifiers and main tourneys. Usually, not always, it is feeder>qualifier>Main Tourney and if you win main tourney you have entry to Del Mar's next week 8000 tourney for instance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1nw-G4_bVk

Thanks for the reply and the music link. That was a nice touch. Thank you as well, GMB@BP.

I guess my focus will be online tournaments. Are there any?

Doing my own research as well. So the credit builder tournaments done by DRF are credits you earn that you can use for entry fees for upcoming tournaments?

I'm with TwinSpires. Do I need a DRF Bets account to play the tournaments listed at DRF.com?

[thaskalos]

I have been playing heads-up tournaments at Horsetourneys.com...and I am having a ball. The tournament entry fees range from $22 to $1,500...so there is a place there for all kinds of bankrolls. It's the best new development in the game, IMO...and I wish I got into it sooner.

[GMB@BP]

Thanks for the reply and the music link. That was a nice touch. Thank you as well, GMB@BP.

I guess my focus will be online tournaments. Are there any?

Doing my own research as well. So the credit builder tournaments done by DRF are credits you earn that you can use for entry fees for upcoming tournaments?

I'm with TwinSpires. Do I need a DRF Bets account to play the tournaments listed at DRF.com?

You just need a DRF account, not DRF Bets.

yes many online, main sites are in order of volume

Horsetourneys.com
DerbyWars.com
DRF

all of these are online.

Yes credit builder does exactly that, earns credits which ammounts to money.

There is also breakage, its explained on the sites, but basically its the leftover money when say 7 people entered but the offer is 1 prize for every 5 entries, the breakage is a refund of entry fee to the next 2 players after the final results.

I play feeders and then make money on the breakage to fund more feeders.

[v j stauffer]

I have been playing heads-up tournaments at Horsetourneys.com...and I am having a ball. The tournament entry fees range from $22 to $1,500...so there is a place there for all kinds of bankrolls. It's the best new development in the game, IMO...and I wish I got into it sooner.

If I had the discipline to play nothing but head to head I could never spend all the money.

Almost impossible to lose.

But I'm always "overclicking" into other games.

Let's meet for a $20 "Texas Chain Match"

$20 on HorseTourneys but for a Steak Dinner at the place of our choice.

Let PA or CJ lay the line.

I'm fine with any of 3 tracks. Saratoga, Del Mar or Gulfstream.

LET'S GET IN ON:jump::headbanger::popcorn::pound:

[thaskalos]

If I had the discipline to play nothing but head to head I could never spend all the money.

Almost impossible to lose.

But I'm always "overclicking" into other games.

Let's meet for a $20 "Texas Chain Match"

$20 on HorseTourneys but for a Steak Dinner at the place of our choice.

Let PA or CJ lay the line.

I'm fine with any of 3 tracks. Saratoga, Del Mar or Gulfstream.

LET'S GET IN ON:jump::headbanger::popcorn::pound:

What's a "Texas Chain Match"...and why can't I find it on the tourney menu?

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I have been playing heads-up tournaments at Horsetourneys.com...and I am having a ball. The tournament entry fees range from $22 to $1,500...so there is a place there for all kinds of bankrolls. It's the best new development in the game, IMO...and I wish I got into it sooner.


Thask pretty much nailed it.


I'm full time HorseTourneys, but DerbyWars has some good stuff as well.



HT will give you free forms. DW doesn't.



HT is limited in its scale of tracks, DW has some others, but is also not fully diverse in its track menu either. (Stronachs)



DW you can chat and talk with your opponents if that is something you would enjoy. I've never been involved in a contest on DW in which smack talking was involved, always more congratulatory in nature. Then again, haven't played there in probably a year or more.



I like the format of HT much better than DW. The layout is just much easier to navigate.



Both are great at Deposit and Withdrawal. Always expect a 2 to 3 day 'delay' if not even a week sometimes on any withdrawal.



Both are pretty good.

[thaskalos]

Okay, Vic...here are my rule suggestions:

We'll bet heads-up on the races at Gulfstream...and I'll leave the entry fee selection up to you. I'd agree with your "steak dinner" idea...but I wouldn't know where to send the money.

[ReplayRandall]

Okay, Vic...here are my rule suggestions:

We'll bet heads-up on the races at Gulfstream...and I'll leave the entry fee selection up to you. I'd agree with your "steak dinner" idea...but I wouldn't know where to send the money.


Send the money?....Like that'll ever happen when you lose...:cool:

[thaskalos]

Send the money?....Like that'll ever happen when you lose...:cool:

Hey...I offered to pay you in monthly installments...and you refused. :kiss:

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Hey...I offered to pay you in monthly installments...and you refused. :kiss:


Don't play if you can't pay.

[thaskalos]

Don't play if you can't pay.

Sorry...I had never lost before, and wasn't prepared for it.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Sorry...I never lost before, and wasn't prepared for it.


Gotta saying in my neck of the woods.
COBH.
Cash On Barrel Head; or you aren't playing.

No IOU's, but Cash Vouchers do play well. :p

[thaskalos]

Gotta saying in my neck of the woods.
COBH.
Cash On Barrel Head; or you aren't playing.

No IOU's, but Cash Vouchers do play well. :p

Come on...like I really expected to lose to ReplayRandall. Haven't you been paying attention to his NYRA picks on this board? :lol:

I had me pegged as the 1/5 favorite...but he had the luckiest streak of his life. To this day I suspect that he brought a ringer into our contest.

[ReplayRandall]

The ringer was VIC, you big sucker Gus...

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Come on...like I really expected to lose to ReplayRandall. Haven't you been paying attention to his NYRA picks on this board? :lol:

I had me pegged as the 1/5 favorite...but he had the luckiest streak of his life. To this day I suspect that he brought a ringer into our contest.


1/5?
Hillary was 1/100.

Always be prepared to lose, or you'll just be doing the laughing giggle guy thingy.

There is no sure thing. Ever. Every serious gambler/horse player knows that.

[thaskalos]

The ringer was VIC, you big sucker Gus...

Don't worry...I'll get even with Vic soon. :cool:

[thaskalos]

1/5?
Hillary was 1/100.

Always be prepared to lose, or you'll just be doing the laughing giggle guy thingy.

There is no sure thing. Ever. Every serious gambler/horse player knows that.

You see what you've done, Randall? And then you wonder why I don't pick up the phone when you call me. :mad:

[woodbinepmi]

I believe tournaments are the only way to get new blood in to the sport, the 35 and under crowd have been playing fantasy sports for years now. Get them into tournament play, teach them how to handicap then (the hard part) they will learn how to bet. I play on DerbyWars and enjoy it very much, it's a nice get away after I take my break from Hong Kong.

[ReplayRandall]

You see what you've done, Randall? And then you wonder why I don't pick up the phone when you call me. :mad:

You don't pay your phone bills either......Recording says, "I'm sorry the number you have dialed is out of service".

[Lemon Drop Husker]

You see what you've done, Randall? And then you wonder why I don't pick up the phone when you call me. :mad:


You can always call me Thask. (402) XXX-XXXX



You just have to figure out this master code.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I believe tournaments are the only way to get new blood in to the sport, the 35 and under crowd have been playing fantasy sports for years now. Get them into tournament play, teach them how to handicap then (the hard part) they will learn how to bet. I play on DerbyWars and enjoy it very much, it's a nice get away after I take my break from Hong Kong.

100% agree.
You can get in for sometimes for even $3 or $4 as newbie, and many are $9 to $12, so you can challenge yourself cheaply and go through an entire form against your competition.
Learn. Rinse. Repeat.
It is like the Poker World that was on steroids early in the mid-200s. You can play hundreds of races (compared to ultra-thousands of poker back then), on the cheap to learn for very little investment.
On line is the way to go. Multiple tracks. Multiple interest. 20 minute delays or more between races won't attract the babies that were born with a cell phone in their hand.

[thaskalos]

You can start low...and climb as high as your skill will allow. And you can go a long way even with a negative ROI. The very first head-to-head tourney that I played in, I got back $12.40 on my $32.00 investment...but my opponent only collected $2.20. It's a lot easier beating a lone opponent than it is beating the tote-board.

[v j stauffer]

Okay, Vic...here are my rule suggestions:

We'll bet heads-up on the races at Gulfstream...and I'll leave the entry fee selection up to you. I'd agree with your "steak dinner" idea...but I wouldn't know where to send the money.

The steak dinner idea is face to face. As the winner talks trash and revels in his expertise.

Where do you live Thask? I'm sure my travels will bring me close.

I live in Las Vegas

[thaskalos]

The steak dinner idea is face to face. As the winner talks trash and revels in his expertise.

Where do you live Thask? I'm sure my travels will bring me close.

I live in Las Vegas

I live in Las Vegas 9 months out of the year...but I am currently in a north Chicago suburb...when I spend the hot summer months.

[v j stauffer]

I live in Las Vegas 9 months out of the year...but I am currently in a north Chicago suburb...when I spend the hot summer months.

There you have it.

Either Gene & Georgetti's there or Morton's here.

Of if you prefer just bragging rights that's fine too.

People are always reluctant to be seen in public with announcers.

Gulfstream it is. $20 head to head match.

Do you prefer Pick & Pray or Live?

[thaskalos]

There you have it.

Either Gene & Georgetti's there or Morton's here.

Of if you prefer just bragging rights that's fine too.

People are always reluctant to be seen in public with announcers.

Gulfstream it is. $20 head to head match.

Do you prefer Pick & Pray or Live?

It would be my PLEASURE to be seen in public with an announcer. :ThmbUp:

Pick & Pray it is...only because I don't want to be tied to the computer for the duration. Let me know when...and how to set it up.

[v j stauffer]

It would be my PLEASURE to be seen in public with an announcer. :ThmbUp:

Pick & Pray it is...only because I don't want to be tied to the computer for the duration. Let me know when...and how to set it up.

I'm playing in a qualifier to the Del Mar tournament on Sunday the 22nd. Typically those qualifier's have some races from Gulfstream which will allow me to double dip a bit.

How about a $20 Pick N Pray on Sunday?

We can sign up at the same time on Saturday night to assure we're in the same contest.

As we get closer we can pick a time to sign up.

How's that sound?

Still looking for PA or CJ to set a line and would be happy to read any advance analysis from the brethren as to why I'm very likely to win!:p

[thaskalos]

I'm playing in a qualifier to the Del Mar tournament on Sunday the 22nd. Typically those qualifier's have some races from Gulfstream which will allow me to double dip a bit.

How about a $20 Pick N Pray on Sunday?

We can sign up at the same time on Saturday night to assure we're in the same contest.

As we get closer we can pick a time to sign up.

How's that sound?

Still looking for PA or CJ to set a line and would be happy to read any advance analysis from the brethren as to why I'm very likely to win!:p

Fine...Sunday it is.

And, since your tournament exploits are so well documented...I will set the early line with you as only a +150 dog against me. :)

[v j stauffer]

Fine...Sunday it is.

And, since your tournament exploits are so well documented...I will set the early line with you as only a +150 dog against me. :)

I respect your expertise at line setting. May I please have $10,000 to win $15,000 on.............ME:headbanger:

[thaskalos]

I respect your expertise at line setting. May I please have $10,000 to win $15,000 on.............ME:headbanger:

Since you respect my line-making expertise so much...you should know that you only get +140 betting the other way. The line-maker ain't working for free, you know.

[v j stauffer]

Since you respect my line-making expertise so much...you should know that you only get +140 betting the other way. The line-maker ain't working for free, you know.

No worries at all. +140 sounds good. I think you should make a few bucks. You're gonna need it!:cool:

[BCOURTNEY]

We need a PA double-elimination tournament.
Mike bring back War Room.

[JeremyJet]

You just need a DRF account, not DRF Bets.

yes many online, main sites are in order of volume

Horsetourneys.com
DerbyWars.com
DRF

all of these are online.

Yes credit builder does exactly that, earns credits which ammounts to money.

There is also breakage, its explained on the sites, but basically its the leftover money when say 7 people entered but the offer is 1 prize for every 5 entries, the breakage is a refund of entry fee to the next 2 players after the final results.

I play feeders and then make money on the breakage to fund more feeders.

Is the DRF World Championship of Handicapping an all online tournament? What's the date of the finals?

The description for the 1 day qualifer on the 28th it says:

1 WCH entry per 10 entries. Minimum 8 entries required to go.

Can you explain that to me?

[v j stauffer]

Is the DRF World Championship of Handicapping an all online tournament? What's the date of the finals?

The description for the 1 day qualifer on the 28th it says:

1 WCH entry per 10 entries. Minimum 8 entries required to go.

Can you explain that to me?

The DRF World Championship is a mythical win/place tournament conducted online.

It is very similar to the NHC which is conducted live at Treasure Island each winter.

The qualifier you see gives you the opportunity to win your way into the Championship field.

Some online sites will guarantee one entry even if only 8 sign up. Sort of like when a certain amount is guarantee in a pick 4 or pick 6 pool. It is VERY rare when the have to contribute the seeding.

Think of a satellite to the World Series of Poker. Very similar.

[v j stauffer]

We need a PA double-elimination tournament.
Mike bring back War Room.

I already beat everybody on PA. Been there done that.

My singular focus now it taking down Mr. Thask.

:cool:

[thaskalos]

I already beat everybody on PA. Been there done that.

My singular focus now it taking down Mr. Thask.

:cool:

Beating everybody else on PA hardly prepares you for taking down Mr. Thask.

Mr. Thask works while the others sleep. :)

[v j stauffer]

Beating everybody else on PA hardly prepares you for taking down Mr. Thask.

Mr. Thask works while the others sleep. :)

I suggest Mr. Thask order a case of Red Bull.:sleeping: I've already spent 3 hours on a Sunday GP card that Mr. Thask probably doesn't even know has been drawn.

Tick-Tock, Tick-Tock :headbanger::pound::kiss::cool::D:jump:

[thaskalos]

I suggest Mr. Thask order a case of Red Bull.:sleeping: I've already spent 3 hours on a Sunday GP card that Mr. Thask probably doesn't even know has been drawn.

Tick-Tock, Tick-Tock :headbanger::pound::kiss::cool::D:jump:

Sunday card already? Have you already finished your work for the days in-between? You are not tangling with a weekend-warrior this time Mr. Stauffer. My money says that you are in for a rude awakening. :)

[v j stauffer]

Sunday card already? Have you already finished your work for the days in-between? You are not tangling with a weekend-warrior this time Mr. Stauffer. My money says that you are in for a rude awakening. :)

My sole focus is the Del Mar Tourney on July 28 & 29. I haven't capped anything since the last Tourney at Santa Anita*. I planned on playing the DM qualifier last weekend but changed my mind when Belmont & Monmouth were rained off the turf.

Now I've switched to this weekends qualifier. So while you're working on the "days between" I'll be singularly focused on Sunday and our match.

Your money might want to re-think it's position.:D

* Finished 2nd

[thaskalos]

My sole focus is the Del Mar Tourney on July 28 & 29. I haven't capped anything since the last Tourney at Santa Anita*. I planned on playing the DM qualifier last weekend but changed my mind when Belmont & Monmouth were rained off the turf.

Now I've switched to this weekends qualifier. So while you're working on the "days between" I'll be singularly focused on Sunday and our match.

Your money might want to re-think it's position.:D

* Finished 2nd

I am so impressed by your single-minded dedication to our match...that I will wholeheartedly offer you a REMATCH, should you desire one. :cool::kiss::D

[Mulerider]

It's a lot easier beating a lone opponent than it is beating the tote-board.

Novice horseplayers would be well advised to take note of this.

[RunForTheRoses]

Is the DRF World Championship of Handicapping an all online tournament? What's the date of the finals?

The description for the 1 day qualifer on the 28th it says:

1 WCH entry per 10 entries. Minimum 8 entries required to go.

Can you explain that to me?

To add to what Vic said, if there are 20 entries 2 will win, if 30 three will win this qualifier. Since this is drfs baby they are a little more generous and if only 8 or 9 enter they will still award a prize and run the game. If they only get 7 or less the contest will not run.

If say 12 enter the top dog will advance and breakage awards will go to 2nd and 3rd (there is some variation here but this is basically it).

Important to note is that on drf breakage credits, which sometimes ca be substantial. I once earned over 500. Cannot be taken out as cash, they can only be played back.On HT and HP credits can be withdrawn as cash and they even have a bank routing thing now.

Drf contrsts you get drf PPs for the races which in mho are much better than those privided by HT-bris. I may play a small feeder and use the PPs for Pick 4s,etc i can save money and use to get timeforms. Also. Drf has more microfeeders lately, for $11 you can play many feeders.

[metro]

I have been playing heads-up tournaments at Horsetourneys.com...and I am having a ball. The tournament entry fees range from $22 to $1,500...so there is a place there for all kinds of bankrolls. It's the best new development in the game, IMO...and I wish I got into it sooner.

Best new still to be determined, if it eventually adds to the pari-mutuel pools then yes.

If a bettor uses his $1500 bankroll for a day to play only a heads up contest what does that do for race track(s) that provide the product that is being used for the tournament?

Contrast that to the churn that a bettor with a $1500 budget could create in a day's worth of wagering at the track, simulcast, or through other wagering avenues.

[ReplayRandall]

Best new still to be determined, if it eventually adds to the pari-mutuel pools then yes.

If a bettor uses his $1500 bankroll for a day to play only a heads up contest what does that do for race track(s) that provide the product that is being used for the tournament?

Contrast that to the churn that a bettor with a $1500 budget could create in a day's worth of wagering at the track, simulcast, or through other wagering avenues.


Apples and oranges, as the player who can afford to play $1500 heads up, does so because it "exists" at horsetourneys or some other on-line site. That player may be actively involved betting live on a much higher scale, probably with rebates....If there wasn't on-line tourneys of this nature, you can't assume he would then churn an extra $1500 in live play....It simply won't happen.

[GMB@BP]

Best new still to be determined, if it eventually adds to the pari-mutuel pools then yes.

If a bettor uses his $1500 bankroll for a day to play only a heads up contest what does that do for race track(s) that provide the product that is being used for the tournament?

Contrast that to the churn that a bettor with a $1500 budget could create in a day's worth of wagering at the track, simulcast, or through other wagering avenues.


That is a track problem, I have done enough for them. I am tired of paying 27% takeouts.

[thaskalos]

Best new still to be determined, if it eventually adds to the pari-mutuel pools then yes.

If a bettor uses his $1500 bankroll for a day to play only a heads up contest what does that do for race track(s) that provide the product that is being used for the tournament?

Contrast that to the churn that a bettor with a $1500 budget could create in a day's worth of wagering at the track, simulcast, or through other wagering avenues.

I said that these tournaments are the "best new development in the game", not "for the game". There have been several ideas implemented for the benefit of the tracks...but the player's plight has been largely IGNORED. The player in today's game has seen the play largely taken away from him by the large rebated computer groups...and is in dire need of a new wagering option in which he could function without being assailed by those whale-betting after-effects that we so often see. HorseTourneys gives us that new wagering option...while the tracks don't.

If the tracks want to benefit substantially from this new idea, then they should endeavor to implement this idea THEMSELVES. Otherwise...they only deserve a tiny piece of the action...IMO.

[metro]

Apples and oranges, as the player who can afford to play $1500 heads up, does so because it "exists" at horsetourneys or some other on-line site. That player may be actively involved betting live on a much higher scale, probably with rebates....If there wasn't on-line tourneys of this nature, you can't assume he would then churn an extra $1500 in live play....It simply won't happen.

Nor can you assume that they would participate in both types of gaming.

I've read at least one person on the PA site state that they were getting more into tourney play as an alternative from pari-mutuel wagering.

[metro]

I said that these tournaments are the "best new development in the game", not "for the game". There have been several ideas implemented for the benefit of the tracks...but the player's plight has been largely IGNORED. The player in today's game has seen the play largely taken away from him by the large rebated computer groups...and is in dire need of a new wagering option in which he could function without being assailed by those whale-betting after-effects that we so often see. HorseTourneys gives us that new wagering option...while the tracks don't.

If the tracks want to benefit substantially from this new idea, then they should endeavor to implement this idea THEMSELVES. Otherwise...they only deserve a tiny piece of the action...IMO.

Tracks have been putting on various types of tournaments for decades, they are just more prevalent now, especially the more lucrative live money ones for them.

Obviously they are never going to go full bore with what you desire because of the overhead.

[thaskalos]

Nor can you assume that they would participate in both types of gaming.

I've read at least one person on the PA site state that they were getting more into tourney play as an alternative from pari-mutuel wagering.

The horseplayer is entitled to do whatever suits his own financial interests...just as the tracks do. "Greed" shouldn't be the monopoly of the racing industry alone.

[thaskalos]

Tracks have been putting on various types of tournaments for decades, they are just more prevalent now, especially the more lucrative live money ones for them.

Obviously they are never going to go full bore with what you desire because of the overhead.

I have been going to racetracks for 35 years...and the only "tournaments" that I saw there were some "live" tournaments among the patrons...where first prize was somewhere in the neighborhood of $45. The other "marquee" tournaments are so poorly promoted that even the hardcore horseplayers know next-to-NOTHING about them. And you would compare this to bringing these tourneys to a horseplayer's HOME...on a daily BASIS?

[Mulerider]

Nor can you assume that they would participate in both types of gaming.

I've read at least one person on the PA site state that they were getting more into tourney play as an alternative from pari-mutuel wagering.

It's my understanding that since the Stronach/Derby Wars lawsuit both cash tournament sites are paying fees to tracks. So the tracks are benefiting from them. That doesn't address your question on churn, but it should also be noted that for those of us in states where ADW betting is not allowed, the tournaments we play provide revenue to the tracks that they wouldn't have received otherwise.

[metro]

I have been going to racetracks for 35 years...and the only "tournaments" that I saw there were some "live" tournaments among the patrons...where first prize was somewhere in the neighborhood of $45. The other "marquee" tournaments are so poorly promoted that even the hardcore horseplayers know next-to-NOTHING about them. And you would compare this to bringing these tourneys to a horseplayer's HOME...on a daily BASIS?

I'm in Kentucky and have played in different forms of tourneys at Churchill and Keeneland for close to 30 years. Churchill used to do them on Wednesdays and Sundays iirc, included a buffet lunch, DRF and access to box level. The prize pool for 1st place was at least $500 guaranteed (depended on the # of entries). Cost was $20 ($2 Win/Place format) if you had were a TSC member. They stopped doing it, not because of cost, but because people just stopped playing in them.

Keeneland still does theirs, Wednesday's only and no buffet, just the DRF but the cost is $10 (same w/p format). Like most other top tier tracks that have gotten more into the live money ones with larger entry fees recently.

NYRA had a daily "showdown" contest that recently ended with the conclusion of the Belmont meet. NO COST with grand prize a drawn entry into some Saratoga live money contest the first weekend in August. Daily winners got 50K points ($50 equivalent) into their NYRABets account. This included people who tied for 1st.....which I was fortunate to do one day. Not sure if Saratoga will be doing the same.

These are just ones off the top of my head, they are out there, sorry they all can't be at your front door.

[v j stauffer]

I am so impressed by your single-minded dedication to our match...that I will wholeheartedly offer you a REMATCH, should you desire one. :cool::kiss::D

BREAKING NEWS: FRANCE REQUESTS REMATCH WITH CROATIA

Uh....................No? :lol:

[thaskalos]

I'm in Kentucky and have played in different forms of tourneys at Churchill and Keeneland for close to 30 years. Churchill used to do them on Wednesdays and Sundays iirc, included a buffet lunch, DRF and access to box level. The prize pool for 1st place was at least $500 guaranteed (depended on the # of entries). Cost was $20 ($2 Win/Place format) if you had were a TSC member. They stopped doing it, not because of cost, but because people just stopped playing in them.

Keeneland still does theirs, Wednesday's only and no buffet, just the DRF but the cost is $10 (same w/p format). Like most other top tier tracks that have gotten more into the live money ones with larger entry fees recently.

NYRA had a daily "showdown" contest that recently ended with the conclusion of the Belmont meet. NO COST with grand prize a drawn entry into some Saratoga live money contest the first weekend in August. Daily winners got 50K points ($50 equivalent) into their NYRABets account. This included people who tied for 1st.....which I was fortunate to do one day. Not sure if Saratoga will be doing the same.

These are just ones off the top of my head, they are out there, sorry they all can't be at your front door.
Oh...okay. Then I should sell my house and move to Kentucky or New York if I want to play these regular tournaments. Or...I could bet with HorseTourneys from home. I'll think about it...and see which option is better for me. :ThmbUp:

[metro]

Oh...okay. Then I should sell my house and move to Kentucky or New York if I want to play these regular tournaments. Or...I could bet with HorseTourneys from home. I'll think about it...and see which option is better for me. :ThmbUp:

Well aren't you the party animal! :headbanger:

[metro]

It's my understanding that since the Stronach/Derby Wars lawsuit both cash tournament sites are paying fees to tracks. So the tracks are benefiting from them. That doesn't address your question on churn, but it should also be noted that for those of us in states where ADW betting is not allowed, the tournaments we play provide revenue to the tracks that they wouldn't have received otherwise.

Appreciate the info, would be interesting to see what the "take " is for the tracks from these on-line tournament type sites.

[JeremyJet]

What are your questions?

I created this thread last year but it was more general discussion.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141094&highlight=tournament


You originally posted this on 10/1/2017. You've come a long way in a short period of time. :)

Quick question about DRF Bets. How come they don't offer the Kentucky tracks when Xpressbet does and Xpressbet runs DRF Bets?

[thaskalos]

BREAKING NEWS: FRANCE REQUESTS REMATCH WITH CROATIA

Uh....................No? :lol:

It's only 8 races...and anything can happen. Heck...I've won heads-up with only an $11 return total...and I've lost with a total of $59.

It's a lot of fun though, and highly-profitable in the long run...for those who are more "comprehensive" in their skill level. And, while I admit that I will be taking a step up in class when I go up against someone of your tournament resume...I remain optimistic about my chances. And, perhaps I should be "quietly optimistic" from now on...lest people here think that I am underestimating the task of squaring up against an accomplished tournament player such as yourself.

En Garde, Monsieur Stauffer! :cool:

[v j stauffer]

It's only 8 races...and anything can happen. Heck...I've won heads-up with only an $11 return total...and I've lost with a total of $59.

It's a lot of fun though, and highly-profitable in the long run...for those who are more "comprehensive" in their skill level. And, while I admit that I will be taking a step up in class when I go up against someone of your tournament resume...I remain optimistic about my chances. And, perhaps I should be "quietly optimistic" from now on...lest people here think that I am underestimating the task of squaring up against an accomplished tournament player such as yourself.

En Garde, Monsieur Stauffer! :cool:

I feel good about my prep work already. I've looked at all "11" races on the card.

But you're good. Stop after the 8th. No worries.

You're good enough to not need to make a pick in those final three.

In fact I think those last three should be left blank. It will help even the playing field for a +150 dog such as me.

:cool:

[thaskalos]

I feel good about my prep work already. I've looked at all "11" races on the card.

But you're good. Stop after the 8th. No worries.

You're good enough to not need to make a pick in those final three.

In fact I think those last three should be left blank. It will help even the playing field for a +150 dog such as me.

:cool:

The heads-up tournaments that I have seen at HorseTourneys include a maximum of 8 races. Even if a race card has 11 races...the heads-up tourney goes from races 4 to 11. But...I haven't been there long...so I could be mistaken.

[v j stauffer]

The heads-up tournaments that I have seen at HorseTourneys include a maximum of 8 races. Even if a race card has 11 races...the heads-up tourney goes from races 4 to 11. But...I haven't been there long...so I could be mistaken.

I forgot about that. You're probably right. Hopefully it will cross pollinate with the Del Mar qualifier which I'm going to play no matter what.

Curious. Can I bet on you to place :p

[GMB@BP]

You originally posted this on 10/1/2017. You've come a long way in a short period of time. :)

Quick question about DRF Bets. How come they don't offer the Kentucky tracks when Xpressbet does and Xpressbet runs DRF Bets?

Right now DRF is in an all out war with churchill downs, they dont even sell the form at CD now.

[thaskalos]

Curious. Can I bet on you to place :p

Sure. But I'll take it out of the dinner check.

[BCOURTNEY]

Today's Del Mar fun for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jK-NcRmVcw
https://twitter.com/blakecourtney/status/1020095751857287168

[v j stauffer]

Today's Del Mar fun for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jK-NcRmVcw
https://twitter.com/blakecourtney/status/1020095751857287168

Good for you BC. I played in "THE BIG ONE" last year. Fun tournament. Well run.

[Mulerider]

Today's Del Mar fun for me.



Good job! You know, what's missing in this thread is the plain fun aspect of tournaments. It's not as satisfying as the money, I'll admit. But in the last 5 years, the days I remember most vividly were not live scores, but tournaments in which I didn't embarrass myself. For instance, a couple of years ago I came in 3rd in a contest here at PA, $6 behind the winner. Sorry, Thask, but that was Vic...and he had predicted his win days in advance.

[BCOURTNEY]

Good for you BC. I played in "THE BIG ONE" last year. Fun tournament. Well run.

I should have been playing contests all year I waited until the last 2 months last year then double qualified for NHC and WCH in November, but didn't start soon enough for a shot at BCBC or The Big One, the Big One looks like a well put on affair. Myabe I'll jump into the Del Mar contest with you this weekend, looks fun!

[BCOURTNEY]

Good job! You know, what's missing in this thread is the plain fun aspect of tournaments. It's not as satisfying as the money, I'll admit. But in the last 5 years, the days I remember most vividly were not live scores, but tournaments in which I didn't embarrass myself. For instance, a couple of years ago I came in 3rd in a contest here at PA, $6 behind the winner. Sorry, Thask, but that was Vic...and he had predicted his win days in advance.

Yes, I like the fun of it, The contests allow me to mentally exercise myself while playing at the window (my main interest) .. The forced single selection process also makes someone increase their critical thinking at the windows, I have heard this from a lot of contest players. It's good fun and sharpens a player's game.

[v j stauffer]

Good job! You know, what's missing in this thread is the plain fun aspect of tournaments. It's not as satisfying as the money, I'll admit. But in the last 5 years, the days I remember most vividly were not live scores, but tournaments in which I didn't embarrass myself. For instance, a couple of years ago I came in 3rd in a contest here at PA, $6 behind the winner. Sorry, Thask, but that was Vic...and he had predicted his win days in advance.

I truly love tournaments. Live $$$ more so than mythical. But both are cool. Tournaments have been especially good for me because they are "tilt proof".

I'm not the most disciplined player in the world. I have some "chase" in me.

I remember when you finished 2nd to me Mule. You did an excellent job that day.

Some of the results just fell my way.

[v j stauffer]

I should have been playing contests all year I waited until the last 2 months last year then double qualified for NHC and WCH in November, but didn't start soon enough for a shot at BCBC or The Big One, the Big One looks like a well put on affair. Myabe I'll jump into the Del Mar contest with you this weekend, looks fun!


You're qualified for more than me. I have one NHC. One BCBC and I sold a PWC which I recently won at Santa Anita. It conflicts with opening weekend at Oaklawn.

The NHC is a very cool tournament. A must play just because of the atmosphere and the chance at an Eclipse award.

The BCBC is the BEST! Live money. Two day tourney with the best racing in the world. Huge prize pool. Chance at bonuses.

Two years ago I was alive for a $1 million bonus. Was 2nd going into the last race. Went all in on California Chrome. $50k. Ended up with the tri for $500 which still dropped me from 2nd to 14th.

This year I finished 10th. DQ'ed into 9th. Was again alive for the bonus. Again went all in. Had $22,000 to win on Collected. But did have a $3500 exacta box with Gun Runner.

Haven't qualified for the bonus yet for this year. Something I intend to rectify by winning Del Mar on the 28th & 29th. I hope.

Jump on in for Del Mar. More the merrier. Excellent tournament. FABULOUS place to play in the Skyroom on the 6th floor. Chance to compare your skills against an elite field.

Won't have to beat Thask either when he retires after I throttle him on our "Texas Chain" match on Sunday. :-)

[GMB@BP]

Today's Del Mar fun for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jK-NcRmVcw
https://twitter.com/blakecourtney/status/1020095751857287168

Nice job!! I have seen your name in the leader boards in some of my games as well.

[GMB@BP]

I truly love tournaments. Live $$$ more so than mythical. But both are cool. Tournaments have been especially good for me because they are "tilt proof".

I'm not the most disciplined player in the world. I have some "chase" in me.

I remember when you finished 2nd to me Mule. You did an excellent job that day.

Some of the results just fell my way.

What I like, well I like quite a few things about tourneys.

1. They make me look for other factors other than just who looks like the best horse. So it makes me a better player in general.

2. You get a lot of action for not too much money (unless someone caps out in a small race contest).

3. You can play for a reasonable amount of money. A bad day at playing contests are almost assuredly less than a bad day live betting.

4. No CRW teams

5. Breakage

6. Its fun to take down the big name pro's, of which I have done a few times.

[v j stauffer]

What I like, well I like quite a few things about tourneys.

1. They make me look for other factors other than just who looks like the best horse. So it makes me a better player in general.

2. You get a lot of action for not too much money (unless someone caps out in a small race contest).

3. You can play for a reasonable amount of money. A bad day at playing contests are almost assuredly less than a bad day live betting.

4. No CRW teams

5. Breakage

6. Its fun to take down the big name pro's, of which I have done a few times.

Yeah, one thing I didn't mention but it goes to "chasing" and "tilting". There's a finite amount of money in play. Which is good for me because of my propensity to chase a bit too often.

Which big name pro's have you taken down? I'd be curious to hear who other player have on their radar as being elite.

For me, there's a group that always seems to be high on the leader boards.

Tony Zhou, Farron McCubbins, Jim Benes, Christian Hellmers, Garrett Skiba just to name a few.

They're all SUPER tough.

[v j stauffer]

What I like, well I like quite a few things about tourneys.

1. They make me look for other factors other than just who looks like the best horse. So it makes me a better player in general.

2. You get a lot of action for not too much money (unless someone caps out in a small race contest).

3. You can play for a reasonable amount of money. A bad day at playing contests are almost assuredly less than a bad day live betting.

4. No CRW teams

5. Breakage

6. Its fun to take down the big name pro's, of which I have done a few times.

What's a CRW team?

[thaskalos]

Yeah, one thing I didn't mention but it goes to "chasing" and "tilting". There's a finite amount of money in play. Which is good for me because of my propensity to chase a bit too often.

Which big name pro's have you taken down? I'd be curious to hear who other player have on their radar as being elite.

For me, there's a group that always seems to be high on the leader boards.

Tony Zhou, Farron McCubbins, Jim Benes, Christian Hellmers, Garrett Skiba just to name a few.

They're all SUPER tough.

These "elite tournament players"...how successful are they when they play the game the "parimutuel" way? I ask because, in poker, the tournament stars are often woefully overmatched when they venture into the top cash games.

[v j stauffer]

These "elite tournament players"...how successful are they when they play the game the "parimutuel" way? I ask because, in poker, the tournament stars are often woefully overmatched when they venture into the top cash games.

Excellent question. I don't have a clue.

Speaking for myself. Straight pari-mutual play has become a small portion of the equation.

The times I get involved is when I'm in a mythical tournament and play straight on the ones I like the best.

Or if a group of races looks juicy for a pick 4 or 5.

OR, when I capp for a TVG shift. As I make my way though those days I'll make a move or two if I see something I think is out of line.

Those bets are smaller though. I have less confidence in them because they are not usually my go to tracks of NYRA or Southern Cal.

Another great thing about tourney's for me is like golfers who play a restricted number of events.

I'd quickly burn out if I looked every day.

It's not unusual for me to play a tourney and not crack open a form until three weeks later at the next one.

[JeremyJet]

4. No CRW teams


This is the primary reason for my question about tournaments. I'm looking for a alternative way to play because of the crazy shit going on with late odds changes. I'm still going to handicap the way I usually do (make an odds line), but it's impossible to play the way I want without know the odds I'm getting. It's a darn shame it's gotten to this point.

[GMB@BP]

What's a CRW team?

Computer Robotic Wagering

[JeremyJet]

What's a CRW team?

The computer teams that are operating under different rules than the rest of us.

[Mulerider]

This is the primary reason for my question about tournaments. I'm looking for a alternative way to play because of the crazy shit going on with late odds changes. I'm still going to handicap the way I usually do (make an odds line), but it's impossible to play the way I want without know the odds I'm getting. It's a darn shame it's gotten to this point.

The late odds changes can burn you in a tournament as well. The other day I'd picked Firenze Fire in a pick-and-pray based on his ML. I was certainly not happy to see those late odds. Of course I was so far behind it was irrelevant to my chances of winning this particular tournament anyway, but still...

[GMB@BP]

The late odds changes can burn you in a tournament as well. The other day I'd picked Firenze Fire in a pick-and-pray based on his ML. I was certainly not happy to see those late odds. Of course I was so far behind it was irrelevant to my chances of winning this particular tournament anyway, but still...

Me too, in a big event for me as well, but the pain is spread out among many players when the of the course of the day and same thing happens. The type of horses i pick go up more than down for the most part.

[JeremyJet]

Me too, in a big event for me as well, but the pain is spread out among many players when the of the course of the day and same thing happens. The type of horses i pick go up more than down for the most part.

I had enough after what transpired in the Indiana Derby. I liked the #1 horse ... TRIGGER something. He's 15/1 early in the wagering and I thought that was kind of insane. So he levels off at like 9/1 or 10/1 with under 10 minutes till post. Goes in the gate at 9/1 and I'm happy. When the gates open he's now down to 6/1. He got nailed at the wire, but still ...

I've had enough. Handicapping the horses is hard enough ... now I have to handicap the odds board. Pure insanity if you ask me.

[BCOURTNEY]

I had enough after what transpired in the Indiana Derby. I liked the #1 horse ... TRIGGER something. He's 15/1 early in the wagering and I thought that was kind of insane. So he levels off at like 9/1 or 10/1 with under 10 minutes till post. Goes in the gate at 9/1 and I'm happy. When the gates open he's now down to 6/1. He got nailed at the wire, but still ...

I've had enough. Handicapping the horses is hard enough ... now I have to handicap the odds board. Pure insanity if you ask me.

The unfortunate reality is that handicapping means both selection and wagering acumen now. It means understanding and handicapping where the tote board will be ... just like the horses. If picking mythical $2 win/place bets (selection based handicapping) then there are pick and pray contests are the best (the lock in the selections at the beginning of the contest), of course the flip side of that scene are the stabbing players that focus on selecting horses at 12 to 1 or more on multiple tickets, this is a skill also and deadly when combined with some infinite bankrolls (some players are backed)... and when they connect a few the tourney can get challenging.

A good rule of thumb to remember in large P&P contest having more than 20 to 30 players is that the median payout per race in the tournament is around 11-12 bucks per race. So if you are in a 10 race competition, you will need to target a WP total of 100-110 dollars. In a 1 to 5 person contest you can target around 8 dollars per race to be viable, depending on the races involved. In a cash tournament, typically if the prize pool is only paying out 4 or 5 spots of 200 you will need to target 8 to 12 times you bankroll to make the final stretch. In a tournament structure like Monmouth for example which is live money ( they pay out like 24-28 spots ) you need to target maybe 3 times your bankroll, it's a "wide" pay out structure. Anyways there is a game for everyone, the socializing is interesting, the competition is refreshing, it's fun.

[GMB@BP]

The unfortunate reality is that handicapping means both selection and wagering acumen now. It means understanding and handicapping where the tote board will be ... just like the horses. If picking mythical $2 win/place bets (selection based handicapping) then there are pick and pray contests are the best (the lock in the selections at the beginning of the contest), of course the flip side of that scene are the stabbing players that focus on selecting horses at 12 to 1 or more on multiple tickets, this is a skill also and deadly when combined with some infinite bankrolls (some players are backed)... and when they connect a few the tourney can get challenging.

A good rule of thumb to remember in large P&P contest having more than 20 to 30 players is that the median payout per race in the tournament is around 11-12 bucks per race. So if you are in a 10 race competition, you will need to target a WP total of 100-110 dollars. In a 1 to 5 person contest you can target around 8 dollars per race to be viable, depending on the races involved. In a cash tournament, typically if the prize pool is only paying out 4 or 5 spots of 200 you will need to target 8 to 12 times you bankroll to make the final stretch. In a tournament structure like Monmouth for example which is live money ( they pay out like 24-28 spots ) you need to target maybe 3 times your bankroll, it's a "wide" pay out structure. Anyways there is a game for everyone, the socializing is interesting, the competition is refreshing, it's fun.

well said.

You cannot handicap the same when there is a large field, or should I say make the same picks.

I generally play in the smaller tournaments and pick and pray. I hate the blind stabbing that happens in the live games at the end.

[BCOURTNEY]

You're qualified for more than me. I have one NHC. One BCBC and I sold a PWC which I recently won at Santa Anita. It conflicts with opening weekend at Oaklawn.

The NHC is a very cool tournament. A must play just because of the atmosphere and the chance at an Eclipse award.

The BCBC is the BEST! Live money. Two day tourney with the best racing in the world. Huge prize pool. Chance at bonuses.

Two years ago I was alive for a $1 million bonus. Was 2nd going into the last race. Went all in on California Chrome. $50k. Ended up with the tri for $500 which still dropped me from 2nd to 14th.

This year I finished 10th. DQ'ed into 9th. Was again alive for the bonus. Again went all in. Had $22,000 to win on Collected. But did have a $3500 exacta box with Gun Runner.

Haven't qualified for the bonus yet for this year. Something I intend to rectify by winning Del Mar on the 28th & 29th. I hope.

Jump on in for Del Mar. More the merrier. Excellent tournament. FABULOUS place to play in the Skyroom on the 6th floor. Chance to compare your skills against an elite field.

Won't have to beat Thask either when he retires after I throttle him on our "Texas Chain" match on Sunday. :-)

This is great, thanks for sharing, thanks for interview with Hellmers too, that tourney needing someone to rock the mic. The competition and stories, we need to infuse that into the game in a digital format. Del Mar looks fun but if I qualify or buy in then I can't attend Hawthorne.. (Anyone going to Hawthorne next week? if so which OTB?)

I do want take the BCBC for a spin for the competition and experience, prize money is gravy. Primary concern with the BCBC is the rule change - all players wagers are public record, why would anyone share with other players xx years of selection and wagering strategy development? That's a little bit of a turn off to me, some of the more talented folks agree it's a bit much. I mean we aren't asking hedge funds to show us their reciepe? They can make a 3-5 person audit team instead.. Hmm, I'm thinking Pegasus instead?

I'm hopeful the tracks and the executives recognize the unique position to strengthen the tournament scene and space and embrace and grow the future of this sport and handle alongside sports betting in this digital age. This is not a spectator's sport.

[v j stauffer]

The unfortunate reality is that handicapping means both selection and wagering acumen now. It means understanding and handicapping where the tote board will be ... just like the horses. If picking mythical $2 win/place bets (selection based handicapping) then there are pick and pray contests are the best (the lock in the selections at the beginning of the contest), of course the flip side of that scene are the stabbing players that focus on selecting horses at 12 to 1 or more on multiple tickets, this is a skill also and deadly when combined with some infinite bankrolls (some players are backed)... and when they connect a few the tourney can get challenging.

A good rule of thumb to remember in large P&P contest having more than 20 to 30 players is that the median payout per race in the tournament is around 11-12 bucks per race. So if you are in a 10 race competition, you will need to target a WP total of 100-110 dollars. In a 1 to 5 person contest you can target around 8 dollars per race to be viable, depending on the races involved. In a cash tournament, typically if the prize pool is only paying out 4 or 5 spots of 200 you will need to target 8 to 12 times you bankroll to make the final stretch. In a tournament structure like Monmouth for example which is live money ( they pay out like 24-28 spots ) you need to target maybe 3 times your bankroll, it's a "wide" pay out structure. Anyways there is a game for everyone, the socializing is interesting, the competition is refreshing, it's fun.

I think you've overestimated what it takes in mythical tournaments. My rule of thumb has always been to average $8.00 per race which will almost always land you in the top ten.

People at the top, especially in much larger fields, tend to get very conservative towards the end of tournaments which keep the top totals down.

[v j stauffer]

This is great, thanks for sharing, thanks for interview with Hellmers too, that tourney needing someone to rock the mic. The competition and stories, we need to infuse that into the game in a digital format. Del Mar looks fun but if I qualify or buy in then I can't attend Hawthorne.. (Anyone going to Hawthorne next week? if so which OTB?)

I do want take the BCBC for a spin for the competition and experience, prize money is gravy. Primary concern with the BCBC is the rule change - all players wagers are public record, why would anyone share with other players xx years of selection and wagering strategy development? That's a little bit of a turn off to me, some of the more talented folks agree it's a bit much. I mean we aren't asking hedge funds to show us their reciepe? They can make a 3-5 person audit team instead.. Hmm, I'm thinking Pegasus instead?

I'm hopeful the tracks and the executives recognize the unique position to strengthen the tournament scene and space and embrace and grow the future of this sport and handle alongside sports betting in this digital age. This is not a spectator's sport.

I couldn't care less if they audit and share my plays. I'm just one of 275 entrants. I think the numbers will turn into a huge swirl that nobody will care about.

[BCOURTNEY]

well said.

You cannot handicap the same when there is a large field, or should I say make the same picks.

I generally play in the smaller tournaments and pick and pray. I hate the blind stabbing that happens in the live games at the end.

Yes, the large games are about placing priority on the admixture of uniqueness of your selection, value, and ability to win. Anecdotally, picking a target amount and sticking with it has had the most success for me (and the least frustration). I like the smaller games as well - they get quite a bit of action and are nice to play first thing in the morning and check out at night if I've been out for the day, I find it a relaxing, competitive, intellectual activity with other players, like a chess game. I have a high regard for other players that take time to provide this action, which is unique in that I'm not playing against a faceless pool, maybe it's "Longshot Jack" again and if I'm watching the races, I'm cringing as every 15-1 shot that has won 1 of 26 starts breaks well... or maybe its "Chalky Stan" and he's hit the last four winners at $5.80 and I'm on the last race with my favorite 12-1 for the day.. and I'm always hoping they are having the same enjoyment regardless of where they are coming from..

[BCOURTNEY]

I think you've overestimated what it takes in mythical tournaments. My rule of thumb has always been to average $8.00 per race which will almost always land you in the top ten.

People at the top, especially in much larger fields, tend to get very conservative towards the end of tournaments which keep the top totals down.

My basis were the monster 200+ person NHC qualifiers on horsetourneys.com the median winner was about $11 when I did that study some time ago - this could be terminology mean versus median? Also mine will be right shifted a little bit from the average ... this median was to win an entry (1st or 2nd place) based on all the races used in multiple contests over a year..

I think the basis is do the research (or talk to players in your circle), understand the end game goal in a dollar target, match it to your play style, develop a process and execute.

[v j stauffer]

Sure. But I'll take it out of the dinner check.

Played $179.00 BCBC on Saturday

Played $400.00 Del Mar on Sunday

Played $500 BCBC on Sunday

But saved this...............

victor stauffer
Balance: $22.00

Just for you Mr. Thask!:headbanger:

[thaskalos]

Played $179.00 BCBC on Saturday

Played $400.00 Del Mar on Sunday

Played $500 BCBC on Sunday

But saved this...............

victor stauffer
Balance: $22.00

Just for you Mr. Thask!:headbanger:

I hope you win 3 out of 4. :ThmbUp:

[BCOURTNEY]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyXZt4RQ5uI

[Mulerider]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyXZt4RQ5uI

I'm skipping my usual Sunday activities just to watch. :popcorn:

[FakeNameChanged]

These "elite tournament players"...how successful are they when they play the game the "parimutuel" way? I ask because, in poker, the tournament stars are often woefully overmatched when they venture into the top cash games.
Stupid question, Thask. Are those tv tournaments with big names not considered top cash games? The coverage on some them is woefully bad. My limited experience with poker has been playing the same group of 6 or 7 guys over a 25 year period.

[v j stauffer]

I hope you win 3 out of 4. :ThmbUp:

Just registered.

$22.00 Gulfstream Pick n Pray for Sunday 7/22.

You can make sure it's me in there. They have a feature where you can see who's already in.

It's on baby!:headbanger:

[Lemon Drop Husker]

:popcorn:

[thaskalos]

Stupid question, Thask. Are those tv tournaments with big names not considered top cash games? The coverage on some them is woefully bad. My limited experience with poker has been playing the same group of 6 or 7 guys over a 25 year period.

Yet another example of why this board often leaves me in an advanced state of confusion. You've called my question "stupid"...while Vic Stauffer called it "excellent". Which one of you guys am I now supposed to believe?

[FakeNameChanged]

Yet another example of why this board often leaves me in an advanced state of confusion. You've called my question "stupid"...while Vic Stauffer called it "excellent". Which one of you guys am I now supposed to believe?
Mr Thaskalos, have you not heard that expression in real life. By stating Stupid question, I'm referring to my question, not your's. I even attempted to qualify my inexperience at poker, well nevermind. Sorry to have offended you, no need to respond.

[thaskalos]

Mr Thaskalos, have you not heard that expression in real life. By stating Stupid question, I'm referring to my question, not your's. I even attempted to qualify my inexperience at poker, well nevermind. Sorry to have offended you, no need to respond.

I wasn't offended...I was just trying to point out that what appears "stupid" to one person could easily seem 'excellent' to another. And, to answer your question...NO, I don't think tournament play is the equivalent of parimuruel play, for several reasons...chief of which is the fact that the onerous takeout associated with the game burdens the parimutuel player to a much greater extent than it does the tournament player.

[JeremyJet]

Thanks to all that contributed to this thread. Good info for me to digest.

So i'm over at HorseTourneys right now trying to learn more. Can someone tell me how people got into this tournament they have going on today. It's the featured $40,000 guaranteed tournament. How much did it cost to get in this tournament? Were there feeders or qualifiers?

Man, they're going for serious money here. Winner gets $18,000.? Good luck Mr. Courtney. :)

[GMB@BP]

Thanks to all that contributed to this thread. Good info for me to digest.

So i'm over at HorseTourneys right now trying to learn more. Can someone tell me how people got into this tournament they have going on today. It's the featured $40,000 guaranteed tournament. How much did it cost to get in this tournament? Were there feeders or qualifiers?

Man, they're going for serious money here. Winner gets $18,000.? Good luck Mr. Courtney. :)

well...

You could just enter for the entry fee, what was it $400?

If not paying that you can do this

Win Round 1 feeder (usually around $20), win round 2 feeder (usually around $90)

or

enter round 2 feeder and win.

Thats about it.

[JeremyJet]

well...

You could just enter for the entry fee, what was it $400?

If not paying that you can do this

Win Round 1 feeder (usually around $20), win round 2 feeder (usually around $90)

or

enter round 2 feeder and win.

Thats about it.

Yeah, I see now. It was a $450 entry fee. There was a feeder early this morning.

[JeremyJet]

How often does HorseTourneys have a tournament like this?

What does "No Limit" mean? No cap on winners odds?

[BCOURTNEY]

Stumbled across the line in a few. You all need to give the contest scene a spin if you haven't already, pretty intense, especially the last race at Saratoga, good times. See you all at the Spa!

https://horsetourneys.com/leaderboard/contest/334058
https://horsetourneys.com/leaderboard/contest/336015

[JeremyJet]

Stumbled across the line in a few. You all need to give the contest scene a spin if you haven't already, pretty intense, especially the last race at Saratoga, good times. See you all at the Spa!

https://horsetourneys.com/leaderboard/contest/334058
https://horsetourneys.com/leaderboard/contest/336015

Congrats!

[BCOURTNEY]

Thanks to all that contributed to this thread. Good info for me to digest.

So i'm over at HorseTourneys right now trying to learn more. Can someone tell me how people got into this tournament they have going on today. It's the featured $40,000 guaranteed tournament. How much did it cost to get in this tournament? Were there feeders or qualifiers?

Man, they're going for serious money here. Winner gets $18,000.? Good luck Mr. Courtney. :)

I won 2 feeder tournaments for like 27 or 57 bucks. I don't remember, the reward was the 450 entry, which I had a few, so I technically can cancel them and collect like 90% of the entry value OR move into the contest. (which i thought about canceling this morning, didn't like the card, but I played instead)

[BCOURTNEY]

How often does HorseTourneys have a tournament like this?

What does "No Limit" mean? No cap on winners odds?


No limit means and unlimited number of players can join and will up the prize pool and the positions paid out.

Odds:

All the contest scores are the sum of the Win and Place payout (mythical $2 bet on both), it caps out at 20-1 for the Win and 10-1 for Place. So a "cap" horse pays $64 maximum (typically if you hit a cap horse your in a really really good position to win, there is a cap payout to discourage random stabbing, but it happens anyways, even more so the live tournaments, when someone hits there is a chase that ensues..)

[v j stauffer]

Stumbled across the line in a few. You all need to give the contest scene a spin if you haven't already, pretty intense, especially the last race at Saratoga, good times. See you all at the Spa!

https://horsetourneys.com/leaderboard/contest/334058
https://horsetourneys.com/leaderboard/contest/336015

Excellent work.

I'm in a BCBC tomorrow on Horseplayers and a Del Mar qualifier on Horsetourneys.

[BCOURTNEY]

Excellent work.

I'm in a BCBC tomorrow on Horseplayers and a Del Mar qualifier on Horsetourneys.

I'm sure you'll score an entry, I'm heading over to Chicago instead it's in my backyard.

You should link your tourneys so we all can watch it go down! (maybe some newer players or others interested can watch, with some commentary afterwards?)

I wish you the best of luck tomorrow Vic!

[v j stauffer]

I'm sure you'll score an entry, I'm heading over to Chicago instead it's in my backyard.

You should link your tourneys so we all can watch it go down! (maybe some newer players or others interested can watch, with some commentary afterwards?)

I wish you the best of luck tomorrow Vic!

Just did the first run through for tomorrow's tournament races.

Super Tough!

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Just did the first run through for tomorrow's tournament races.

Super Tough!


Which races?

[thaskalos]

Just did the first run through for tomorrow's tournament races.

Super Tough!

Are Gulfstream's races tomorrow tough?

[v j stauffer]

Are Gulfstream's races tomorrow tough?

Haven't looked.

[v j stauffer]

Which races?

1. SAR 5

2. ELP 5

3. ELP 6

4. SAR 7

5. WO 8

6. DMR 1

7. ELP 8

8. DMR 2

9. WO 10

10. DMR 3

11. SAR 10

12. DMR 4

[GMB@BP]

Stumbled across the line in a few. You all need to give the contest scene a spin if you haven't already, pretty intense, especially the last race at Saratoga, good times. See you all at the Spa!

https://horsetourneys.com/leaderboard/contest/334058
https://horsetourneys.com/leaderboard/contest/336015

That is tremendous, beating 75 people aint easy. Plus the cash game. Nice bob in the last at Saratoga.

[GMB@BP]

1. SAR 5

2. ELP 5

3. ELP 6

4. SAR 7

5. WO 8

6. DMR 1

7. ELP 8

8. DMR 2

9. WO 10

10. DMR 3

11. SAR 10

12. DMR 4

I like those races, more dirt than turf.

[Johng032]

Well played today. Nice photo in the last at Saratoga.

Tourneys are very addictive. I’ve been sucking wind lately but there will be another one tomorrow.

[GMB@BP]

Well played today. Nice photo in the last at Saratoga.

Tourneys are very addictive. I’ve been sucking wind lately but there will be another one tomorrow.

Its funny, they can be random in terms of results where you dont feel like you have tons of control.

I took the collar today at Saratoga.

Did well at Del Mar.

Not sure there was much difference in the handicapping, just the way the races shook out.

[v j stauffer]

Are Gulfstream's races tomorrow tough?

Where do you stand?

Just went back for my third look.

Immediately saw something and changed a play.

What do you think of the card?

[thaskalos]

Where do you stand?

Just went back for my third look.

Immediately saw something and changed a play.

What do you think of the card?

I don't know if they'll be on the turf...and I am at a poker game that figures to go on until at least 5 am. If they end up OFF the turf...there will be a lot of bleary-eyed handicapping going on early tomorrow. Tough card, IMO...but then again...it's a tough game.

[v j stauffer]

I don't know if they'll be on the turf...and I am at a poker game that figures to go on until at least 5 am. If they end up OFF the turf...there will be a lot of bleary-eyed handicapping going on early tomorrow. Tough card, IMO...but then again...it's a tough game.

I just checked the weather. If it rains it doesn't look like it will be until about half way through the card.

Won't be nearly as much fun it they do come off.

[thaskalos]

I just checked the weather. If it rains it doesn't look like it will be until about half way through the card.

Won't be nearly as much fun it they do come off.

A lot to worry about for a measly $20...IMO. But the added benefit of getting to meet you up close makes it worth the effort. How involved have you become in the Vegas poker scene, Vic...or do you confine yourself strictly to horses?

[v j stauffer]

A lot to worry about for a measly $20...IMO. But the added benefit of getting to meet you up close makes it worth the effort. How involved have you become in the Vegas poker scene, Vic...or do you confine yourself strictly to horses?

I play very little Poker.

TVG, Tournaments & officiating keep me plenty busy.

I've got two more races to do. Then I think I'll be ready.

Gonna get up early.

Bet $100 on Francesco Molinari at +6500 before the start of the 3rd round.

He shot 65 yesterday and sits 3 shots back. He tees off at 6:35. Playing with Tiger which is either very good or very bad.

Should be fun to watch.

[garyscpa]

I play very little Poker.

TVG, Tournaments & officiating keep me plenty busy.

I've got two more races to do. Then I think I'll be ready.

Gonna get up early.

Bet $100 on Francesco Molinari at +6500 before the start of the 3rd round.

He shot 65 yesterday and sits 3 shots back. He tees off at 6:35. Playing with Tiger which is either very good or very bad.

Should be fun to watch.

Congrats on Molinari.

[v j stauffer]

I play very little Poker.

TVG, Tournaments & officiating keep me plenty busy.

I've got two more races to do. Then I think I'll be ready.

Gonna get up early.

Bet $100 on Francesco Molinari at +6500 before the start of the 3rd round.

He shot 65 yesterday and sits 3 shots back. He tees off at 6:35. Playing with Tiger which is either very good or very bad.

Should be fun to watch.

Ok. Got one winner in.

Now going after the one that matters.

Here's we go Mr. Thask :headbanger:

[JeremyJet]

can we go back a little and discuss strategy a little more?

Vic and Mr. Courtney mentioned price points in tournaments. I think Vic mentioned he likes to average around $8 when its all said and done. Mr. Courtney $11? Does that mean you will never use a short priced favorite in a tournament?

I noticed a guy today used a 1/9 shot (it won) in a feeder for the big tournament today at HorseTourneys. Is it even worth using a horse with such low odds?

[v j stauffer]

can we go back a little and discuss strategy a little more?

Vic and Mr. Courtney mentioned price points in tournaments. I think Vic mentioned he likes to average around $8 when its all said and done. Mr. Courtney $11? Does that mean you will never use a prohibited favorite in a tournament?

I noticed a guy today used a 1/9 shot (it won) in a feeder for the big tournament today at HorseTourneys. Is it even worth using a horse with such low odds?

Tournaments are won by very small margins. A winning 1/9 gets the player back either $4.40 or $4.20.

Sometimes that makes a very big difference.

There are also times where tactics in trying to a hold a lead will cause a player to try to anticipate an opponents selection and match it.

Tournaments are a VERY different animal indeed.

[v j stauffer]

Ok. Got one winner in.

Now going after the one that matters.

Here's we go Mr. Thask :headbanger:

1 Dimitrios Patouhas - Entry 1 $0.00 2 3 6 7 8 3 4 2 View Details
2 victor stauffer - Entry 1 $0.00 5 1 2 4 8 1 4 5

Thask aka *CEW breaks on top.

Notice only have 2 selections that are the same.

Here we go!

* Chalk Eating Weasel :kiss:

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Tournaments are won by very small margins. A winning 1/9 gets the player back either $4.40 or $4.20.

Sometimes that makes a very big difference.

There are also times where tactics in trying to a hold a lead will cause a player to try to anticipate an opponents selection and match it.

Tournaments are a VERY different animal indeed.


Well said.


In short, tournaments are parimuteual wagering on steroids. You are not only playing the race, but also have to consider your opponent(s) and their wagering strategy(s) at any point in time.

[Mulerider]

I noticed a guy today used a 1/9 shot (it won) in a feeder for the big tournament today at HorseTourneys. Is it even worth using a horse with such low odds?

Keep your eye on him and see if he continues that betting pattern, and where he ends up. If he's consistently betting favorites I don't think he'll be in the top 10 or 20. Is it a pick-and-pray? I can't fathom anyone betting a 1/9 purposely in a tournament. The place horse at decent odds would earn you more.

[v j stauffer]

can we go back a little and discuss strategy a little more?

Vic and Mr. Courtney mentioned price points in tournaments. I think Vic mentioned he likes to average around $8 when its all said and done. Mr. Courtney $11? Does that mean you will never use a short priced favorite in a tournament?

I noticed a guy today used a 1/9 shot (it won) in a feeder for the big tournament today at HorseTourneys. Is it even worth using a horse with such low odds?

With all due respect to Mr. Courtney.

I must reiterate that averaging $11.00 per race would cuase him to winabout 90% of all contests offered.

[v j stauffer]

Keep your eye on him and see if he continues that betting pattern, and where he ends up. If he's consistently betting favorites I don't think he'll be in the top 10 or 20. Is it a pick-and-pray? I can't fathom anyone betting a 1/9 purposely in a tournament. The place horse at decent odds would earn you more.

In tournaments each race offers a finite amount points.

If a 1/9 shot is used and wins. And the place horse pays less than $4.40 the player has maximized the tactical potential of that race.

I wouldn't recommend doing it all the time. But in the pursuit of accumulating points it's not always incorrect.

Whereas, pari-mutually I can't ever see it being justified.

[GMB@BP]

You still have to handicap the races and the card.

There are days where the races are chalky, you cant just say I am going to take long shots just because the favs in a race appear pretty strong.

You need to also understand what kind of races typically produce the best kind of payoffs, its not all the same.

[Mulerider]

In tournaments each race offers a finite amount points.

If a 1/9 shot is used and wins. And the place horse pays less than $4.40 the player has maximized the tactical potential of that race.

I wouldn't recommend doing it all the time. But in the pursuit of accumulating points it's not always incorrect.

Whereas, pari-mutually I can't ever see it being justified.

Yes, I've lost tournaments by less than that. Just speaking for me, I would only use chalk tactically as a block, perhaps late. I'm always looking for a way to beat the favorite, even if it doesn't exist! :eek:

[Lemon Drop Husker]

You still have to handicap the races and the card.

There are days where the races are chalky, you cant just say I am going to take long shots just because the favs in a race appear pretty strong.

You need to also understand what kind of races typically produce the best kind of payoffs, its not all the same.




Yep. Won an 8 race tournament with 5 winners and 2 Place horses that paid a grand total of $45.80. Everybody on the board was within dollars, if not cents.



The one place horse paid $8.80 or so, and put me over the winning horse that paid like $6.60 to WP.

[v j stauffer]

Yes, I've lost tournaments by less than that. Just speaking for me, I would only use chalk tactically as a block, perhaps late. I'm always looking for a way to beat the favorite, even if it doesn't exist! :eek:

As you should be.:ThmbUp:

[GMB@BP]

As you should be.:ThmbUp:

what would you do with the CC Oaks today in a contest?

the fav will be 4/5, the second choice 6/5 and to me maybe if somehow smith and florant hook up because they are the two best horses eskimo kisses can improve 10 lengths and beat them.

Its a very unlikely scenario, you are in a pick and pray, meaning you have to put in before the first race goes off, its not live betting.

Very tough, I took the chalk because I figured the card looked chalky.

[JeremyJet]

Re: Value

Vic,

Earlier in this thread you mentioned head-to-head tournaments and how well you would do if you just played that format. Why is that? Is there something about the head-to-head format that offers value over other tournament formats?

[JeremyJet]

Keep your eye on him and see if he continues that betting pattern, and where he ends up. If he's consistently betting favorites I don't think he'll be in the top 10 or 20. Is it a pick-and-pray? I can't fathom anyone betting a 1/9 purposely in a tournament. The place horse at decent odds would earn you more.

Most people in the tourney used the horse. But yeah, the place horse paid more than the W&P combined on the winner. I think it was the 2nd at Mth today.

[GMB@BP]

Re: Value

Vic,

Earlier in this thread you mentioned head-to-head tournaments and how well you would do if you just played that format. Why is that? Is there something about the head-to-head format that offers value over other tournament formats?

If your an elite handicapper dont you have a significant advantage just about every time one tees it up, with your losses more due to bad luck?

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Re: Value

Vic,

Earlier in this thread you mentioned head-to-head tournaments and how well you would do if you just played that format. Why is that? Is there something about the head-to-head format that offers value over other tournament formats?


Not to answer for Vic, but I'm 100% sure he knows he is better than most at this game. Thus whatever money is on the table, he'll win at least 60% of the time.

[BCOURTNEY]

can we go back a little and discuss strategy a little more?

Vic and Mr. Courtney mentioned price points in tournaments. I think Vic mentioned he likes to average around $8 when its all said and done. Mr. Courtney $11? Does that mean you will never use a short priced favorite in a tournament?

I noticed a guy today used a 1/9 shot (it won) in a feeder for the big tournament today at HorseTourneys. Is it even worth using a horse with such low odds?

Let's discuss what was said. Vic said 8 dollar average that is correct, I said 11 dollar median, that is also correct. This means that the distribution of the top finishers is skewed to the right. This is not surprising at all, the "sample" size of races in any format is small 6 to 12 races. When a bomb hits it will skew the distribution to the right greatly. If it's a chalky day, then the median and average will be equal. I want to explain that the rationale and the math behind targeting an end goal that is race count * 11 dollars roughly means I'm trying to match my selections odds to the distributions of the final winning dollar amounts in the past, those distributions are quite consistent. So I can count on the end goal being approximately the same with every contest, some days based on my selections, it might make no sense to play, other days, I might have 2 or 3 10/1 or 15/1 shots that I believe are live. I will say if my top picks (some have to be shots) when combined with other selections are below 5/1 on average, I probably shouldn't play, because I'm likely to lose, this is based in math I have developed around contests, I try to stay very objective about the final distributions of the winners. Do I care if I play a tournament and end up with zero dollars at the end? Absolutely not, I do know if don't include some price horses I will typically lose, but hey if a few connect I look like a genius right? In addition to the math, style wise that is my preference, as opposed to trying to to hit chalk pick 6's inside the limited contest races. For feeder contests (6 or less races) this can be a useful strategy, but again you have to run the numbers based on your historical data! If you keep winning feeders but fail when the race count is doubled that is the number one clue your a good handicapper that needs to be more aggressive in the larger contests. For cash contests Vic (and folks like Eric Moomey) have the strategy spot on, that is to play as few value bets as possible and maximize the amount you play on them, that is why he is successful, he's playing the optimal strategy, which is go all in on a single contest winning bet, hit or go home. The math actually supports that approach, the optimal play is nothing or all in on your best overlay, the key is to do that when that wager will win. Hope this is helpful.

[v j stauffer]

what would you do with the CC Oaks today in a contest?

the fav will be 4/5, the second choice 6/5 and to me maybe if somehow smith and florant hook up because they are the two best horses eskimo kisses can improve 10 lengths and beat them.

Its a very unlikely scenario, you are in a pick and pray, meaning you have to put in before the first race goes off, its not live betting.

Very tough, I took the chalk because I figured the card looked chalky.

Sorry, I didn't look at that race.

[v j stauffer]

Re: Value

Vic,

Earlier in this thread you mentioned head-to-head tournaments and how well you would do if you just played that format. Why is that? Is there something about the head-to-head format that offers value over other tournament formats?

Yes. I only have to defeat one opponent. I have great confidence in my abilities.

[v j stauffer]

1 Dimitrios Patouhas - Entry 1 $15.20
2 victor stauffer - Entry 1 $0.00

This is not enjoyable :puke:

Let's GO:jump:

[JeremyJet]

Yes. I only have to defeat one opponent. I have great confidence in my abilities.

Mr. Thaskalos has confidence in himself as well. :D

[BCOURTNEY]

Yes. I only have to defeat one opponent. I have great confidence in my abilities.

Why aren't there any double elimination bracket contests is beyond me, the math says the largest contest pool size of entrants should not exceed the average number of horses per race, such that "stabbing" is not rewarded, and at that point you could even remove the cap win and place payoff too! :)
really wish they had double elimination 5 person contests leading to a final table, that would be much more reflective of skill of selection and wagering acumen.

[v j stauffer]

Mr. Thaskalos has confidence in himself as well. :D

You mean the KING OF CHALK?

I'll gun him down!:coffee:

[GMB@BP]

Why aren't there any double elimination bracket contests is beyond me, the math says the largest contest pool size of entrants should not exceed the average number of horses per race, such that "stabbing" is not rewarded, and at that point you could even remove the cap win and place payoff too! :)
really wish they had double elimination 5 person contests leading to a final table, that would be much more reflective of skill of selection and wagering acumen.

i hate stabbing in live contests, its why I usually do the pick and prays

[v j stauffer]

Why aren't there any double elimination bracket contests is beyond me, the math says the largest contest pool size of entrants should not exceed the average number of horses per race, such that "stabbing" is not rewarded, and at that point you could even remove the cap win and place payoff too! :)
really wish they had double elimination 5 person contests leading to a final table, that would be much more reflective of skill of selection and wagering acumen.

I don't understand what a double elimination tournament is?

[BCOURTNEY]

I don't understand what a double elimination tournament is?

5-man contests, you win you advance to the next level, you lose twice at your current level you are out. Is a multi person bracket, would be much more reflective of handicapping skill.

[thaskalos]

You mean the KING OF CHALK?

I'll gun him down!:coffee:

The "KING OF CHALK"...missed by a lip with a 13-1 shot. :)

[v j stauffer]

The "KING OF CHALK"...missed by a lip with a 13-1 shot. :)

That was a GREAT pick. He wins and I'm toast. Long road back. I think I can do it. Won't be easy.

[v j stauffer]

The "KING OF CHALK"...missed by a lip with a 13-1 shot. :)

1 Dimitrios Patouhas - Entry 1 $32.20
2 victor stauffer - Entry 1 $7.40

:puke:

[v j stauffer]

1 Dimitrios Patouhas - Entry 1 $32.20
2 victor stauffer - Entry 1 $7.40

:puke:

Uh Oh. We have a match!

[v j stauffer]

Uh Oh. We have a match!

1 Dimitrios Patouhas - Entry 1 $32.20
2 victor stauffer - Entry 1 $27.80

$5.80 to place with a 30-1 2nd.

Whata Gyp:(

[Mulerider]

Uh Oh. We have a match!

And 3 races of 6 in which the place horse paid more than the winner's combined WP.

It all rides on the last race now! :popcorn:

[thaskalos]

I wonder...should I hedge by making a place-bet on Vic's longshot in the last race?

[v j stauffer]

I wonder...should I hedge by making a place-bet on Vic's longshot in the last race?

YES

[Mulerider]

Ah, the bane of pick-and-pray players: Vic's 15/1 ML pick is at 6/1 on the board at 17 MTP.

[v j stauffer]

Ah, the bane of pick-and-pray players: Vic's 15/1 ML pick is at 6/1 on the board at 17 MTP.

I didn't think that horse would be 15-1.

Thask's horse is strictly the one to beat.

[Mulerider]

I didn't think that horse would be 15-1.

Thask's horse is strictly the one to beat.

Yours has climbed back to 11, so you never know.

[BCOURTNEY]

Heard you all needed some Midwest hicks at Laurel.

https://www.horsetourneys.com/leaderboard/contest/336020

[v j stauffer]

YES


FOUL FOUL FOUL!!!!

You set that up. That was worse than Flo The Jock in the Belmont.

:rant::rant::rant::pout::pout::pout::puke::puke::p uke:

[BCOURTNEY]

FOUL FOUL FOUL!!!!

You set that up. That was worse than Flo The Jock in the Belmont.

:rant::rant::rant::pout::pout::pout::puke::puke::p uke:

Wow what a great finish guys!

[v j stauffer]

YES

No Inquiry???

Nothing???

:pout::pout::pout::pout::pout:

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

:pound::pound::pound::pound::pound:


Congrats Thask!!

Well played.

[PaceAdvantage]

Good show fellas...what was the final score?

[thaskalos]

No Inquiry???

Nothing???

:pout::pout::pout::pout::pout:

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

:pound::pound::pound::pound::pound:


Congrats Thask!!

Well played.

If only I could get you on a slow boat to China*. :cool:



(*Remember...I earned bragging rights.)

[v j stauffer]

Good show fellas...what was the final score?

1 Dimitrios Patouhas - Entry 1 $38.40
2 victor stauffer - Entry 1 $27.80

[v j stauffer]

If only I could get you on a slow boat to China*. :cool:



(*Remember...I earned bragging rights.)

You sure did.

It ain't bragging if you can do it.

[Mulerider]

1 Dimitrios Patouhas - Entry 1 $38.40
2 victor stauffer - Entry 1 $27.80


For informational purposes, make of it what you will:

Winning horses' combined WP earnings: $84.60

Place horses' earnings: $86.20

Place horse scored higher than winner's combined score in 50% (4 of 8) of the races.

[thaskalos]

1 Dimitrios Patouhas - Entry 1 $38.40
2 victor stauffer - Entry 1 $27.80

Wire-to-wire, and drawing out in the final yards...as much-the-best.* :cool:



(*Bragging rights....)

[Mulerider]

Heard you all needed some Midwest hicks at Laurel.

https://www.horsetourneys.com/leaderboard/contest/336020

Well played! A $22.70 winner, two placers that paid over $10 per, and a $9.20 placer. Good job.

[v j stauffer]

For informational purposes, make of it what you will:

Winning horses' combined WP earnings: $84.60

Place horses' earnings: $86.20

Place horse scored higher than winner's combined score in 50% (4 of 8) of the races.

The horse in the 4th would have been capped at $22.00.

Interesting stat though.

What's to be made of it?

For a while HorseTourney's had contests which added up WP & Show.

I liked those. They were good for me.

Haven't seen that format for quite some time.

[Mulerider]

The horse in the 4th would have been capped at $22.00.



Yes, I only gave the :7: in the 4th race $22. I got the scores from the tournament leaderboard. His mutuel place payout was $28.60.

[RunForTheRoses]

WTG Blake, top billing:

https://blog.horsetourneys.com/2018/07/23/blake-courtney-scores-on-back-to-back-days-elizabeth-canning-repeats-last-race-cap-horse-shakes-up-sunday-weekend-recap-july-20-22/#more-4051

[JeremyJet]

I have a question about the Winner Take All format at HorseTourneys.

If it's a Runs w/3 - Cap 500, what's the pool if there is only 3 entries? $300? I haven't seen one go off below 5 entries yet.

[GMB@BP]

I have a question about the Winner Take All format at HorseTourneys.

If it's a Runs w/3 - Cap 500, what's the pool if there is only 3 entries? $300? I haven't seen one go off below 5 entries yet.

yes

[BCOURTNEY]

I have a question about the Winner Take All format at HorseTourneys.

If it's a Runs w/3 - Cap 500, what's the pool if there is only 3 entries? $300? I haven't seen one go off below 5 entries yet.

3 is the minimum amount and yes you get 300 as the winner.

[BCOURTNEY]

WTG Blake, top billing:

https://blog.horsetourneys.com/2018/07/23/blake-courtney-scores-on-back-to-back-days-elizabeth-canning-repeats-last-race-cap-horse-shakes-up-sunday-weekend-recap-july-20-22/#more-4051

Thanks!

Everyone should take a second and check out the following contest listings: https://www.ntra.com/events/

There could be a contest of interest to you as a player, and there are feeders on various sites to get there.. especially if you like the poker tournament approach to handicapping, very entertaining at a low cost.

[JeremyJet]

Mr. Hellmers mentioned that he prefers the P&P format over Live play. Are one of those formats more popular than the other in the tournament world? I don't know, I'm kind of leaning towards Live play at the moment. Seems to be a more relaxed way to go about it.

Now, when I jump in and start playing, where do I go to avoid the "wise guys?" I don't want to butt heads with seasoned pros like Mr. Hellmers, Mr. Stauffer or Mr. Courtney right off the bat. I'm thinkin' Mr. Thask is more my speed ... I think he might be set up for a "bounce." :D

I know Vic just played in the cheapest Head-to-Head HorseTourney offers, but I don't think that's his usual game of choice. The "wise guys" I assume are hunting for big game most of the time. I'm not gonna run into you guys in a $100 Head-to-Head, am I? What about a $250 or $500 Winner Take All? A couple hundred dollars is nothing to shake a stick at, but that's pocket change for you guys, right? :)

[GMB@BP]

Mr. Hellmers mentioned that he prefers the P&P format over Live play. Are one of those formats more popular than the other in the tournament world? I don't know, I'm kind of leaning towards Live play at the moment. Seems to be a more relaxed way to go about it.

Now, when I jump in and start playing, where do I go to avoid the "wise guys?" I don't want to butt heads with seasoned pros like Mr. Hellmers, Mr. Stauffer or Mr. Courtney right off the bat. I'm thinkin' Mr. Thask is more my speed ... I think he might be set up for a "bounce." :D

I know Vic just played in the cheapest Head-to-Head HorseTourney offers, but I don't think that's his usual game of choice. The "wise guys" I assume are hunting for big game most of the time. I'm not gonna run into you guys in a $100 Head-to-Head, am I? What about a $250 or $500 Winner Take All? A couple hundred dollars is nothing to shake a stick at, but that's pocket change for you guys, right? :)

Your not going to run into pro players at the smaller denominations (less than say $50), but honestly I think your going to run into quality players at all levels.

I say this because tournaments are not main stream yet, the players playing them are niche and know the sport.

[thaskalos]

Mr. Hellmers mentioned that he prefers the P&P format over Live play. Are one of those formats more popular than the other in the tournament world? I don't know, I'm kind of leaning towards Live play at the moment. Seems to be a more relaxed way to go about it.

Now, when I jump in and start playing, where do I go to avoid the "wise guys?" I don't want to butt heads with seasoned pros like Mr. Hellmers, Mr. Stauffer or Mr. Courtney right off the bat. I'm thinkin' Mr. Thask is more my speed ... I think he might be set up for a "bounce." :D

I know Vic just played in the cheapest Head-to-Head HorseTourney offers, but I don't think that's his usual game of choice. The "wise guys" I assume are hunting for big game most of the time. I'm not gonna run into you guys in a $100 Head-to-Head, am I? What about a $250 or $500 Winner Take All? A couple hundred dollars is nothing to shake a stick at, but that's pocket change for you guys, right? :)

You ask several important questions...but someone else's answers won't do you any good. You need to discover what works for YOU, and what YOU are capable of accomplishing...and you aren't going to be able to do that by analyzing things to death while looking from the outside in. Having said that...here are a few recommendations of my own, which may make your "experience" a little smoother than it might otherwise be:

1.) Make up your mind to get in the game starting at the lowest level...and play 25 heads-up tournaments to see where you are at. "Why heads-up?"...you may ask? Because you need to learn to walk before you can run. If you can't beat a lone opponent...then you'll have even bigger problems beating a group.

2.) Take the game seriously...even when you play for the lowest stakes. This is hard to do if you've already gotten used to betting larger sums in parimutuel play...but it is vital to your long-term success as a player. The tournament format is a new thing...and when learning new things, we need to keep the "tuition costs" at the minimum level. When I started playing on HorseTourneys at the $40 level, I had made up my mind that I would play 25 tourneys at that level no matter what. But when I won 14 out of the first 17 tournament that I played, boredom started setting in...and I stopped taking my game seriously enough. I started just browsing the PPs, and coming up with all my picks in a matter of 10 minutes...without ever writing anything down. So...whose fault was it that I lost 5 of my next 6 tourneys? What right did I have to get "bored" in a gambling game...when I know full-well that in gambling, if you aren't "bored"...then you are playing the game WRONG? Do the "thrill-seekers" last long in the gambling arena?

3.) Set up a bankroll that will be earmarked for tournaments alone...and resist the temptation to play out-of-pocket. Endeavor to climb up (and down) the entry-fee ladder in accordance with the fluctuations of your pre-set bankroll. If you aren't beating the lower levels...then, what business have you got trying to "get even" by testing the levels higher up? I would give you my own level-progression chart...but I trust that you can come up with one on your own. The main point is that there really is no hurry. The smart thing is to start low, and build up while gathering up knowledge and experience on the cheap. And this goes for ALL of us! But we have to stop overthinking about it...and actually get into the game. You can't learn how to swim by watching a Michael Phelps video. You must GET WET! :)

Gambling is "democracy" at its finest...IMO. In the gambling arena...no one cares what our color or creed is...and the only obstacle to our advancement is our own knowledge, wit and maturity. If we got what it takes, then we'll make it. It's in the cards. :ThmbUp:

[Mulerider]

Y
1.) Make up your mind to get in the game starting at the lowest level...

For someone just starting in tournaments Derby Wars has the lowest minimums. There are $20 head-to-heads with $11 entry fees, seven-man contests with a $6 prize that cost $1, etc. Best way to start and learn, IMO.

[v j stauffer]

You ask several important questions...but someone else's answers won't do you any good. You need to discover what works for YOU, and what YOU are capable of accomplishing...and you aren't going to be able to do that by analyzing things to death while looking from the outside in. Having said that...here are a few recommendations of my own, which may make your "experience" a little smoother than it might otherwise be:

1.) Make up your mind to get in the game starting at the lowest level...and play 25 heads-up tournaments to see where you are at. "Why heads-up?"...you may ask? Because you need to learn to walk before you can run. If you can't beat a lone opponent...then you'll have even bigger problems beating a group.

2.) Take the game seriously...even when you play for the lowest stakes. This is hard to do if you've already gotten used to betting larger sums in parimutuel play...but it is vital to your long-term success as a player. The tournament format is a new thing...and when learning new things, we need to keep the "tuition costs" at the minimum level. When I started playing on HorseTourneys at the $40 level, I had made up my mind that I would play 25 tourneys at that level no matter what. But when I won 14 out of the first 17 tournament that I played, boredom started setting in...and I stopped taking my game seriously enough. I started just browsing the PPs, and coming up with all my picks in a matter of 10 minutes...without ever writing anything down. So...whose fault was it that I lost 5 of my next 6 tourneys? What right did I have to get "bored" in a gambling game...when I know full-well that in gambling, if you aren't "bored"...then you are playing the game WRONG? Do the "thrill-seekers" last long in the gambling arena?

3.) Set up a bankroll that will be earmarked for tournaments alone...and resist the temptation to play out-of-pocket. Endeavor to climb up (and down) the entry-fee ladder in accordance with the fluctuations of your pre-set bankroll. If you aren't beating the lower levels...then, what business have you got trying to "get even" by testing the levels higher up? I would give you my own level-progression chart...but I trust that you can come up with one on your own. The main point is that there really is no hurry. The smart thing is to start low, and build up while gathering up knowledge and experience on the cheap. And this goes for ALL of us! But we have to stop overthinking about it...and actually get into the game. You can't learn how to swim by watching a Michael Phelps video. You must GET WET! :)

Gambling is "democracy" at its finest...IMO. In the gambling arena...no one cares what our color or creed is...and the only obstacle to our advancement is our own knowledge, wit and maturity. If we got what it takes, then we'll make it. It's in the cards. :ThmbUp:

All good stuff. Let me add a couple of things. Not likely you'll ever hook an elite tournament professional at a $20 or $50 level.

However, you very well could from $100 on up. What happens is if I do the work to play a $1500 game. I'll use the copy feature and play all levels from $1500 to $750 all the way down to $100. Takes very little time to enter several matches. You can also double and triple up. Once an opponent registers, the site will put up another match, so I can re-enter over and over again. Playing 7 games for $200 is obviously no different than one at $1500.

This ONLY applies to Pick and Pray which I prefer over live. Not because of the "stabbing" factor. If they're stabbing you almost always have them dead to rights. The reason I like Pick N Pray is once I've done the work I can put it in (make sure you concentrate on your alternates) and not have monitor it as the day goes on.

DO NOT play anything other than what you think are your "A" tracks. Mine are NYRA and So.Cal ( shouldn't have included GP when Thask schooled me). If you think you can come with a good opinion on more than two circuits you're very wrong. If it seems easy doing more than 2 you're not doing enough work on your top two. You MUST to quote Lavar Ball "stay in your lane" You'll be facing players who do precisely that.

Keep track of the names of the players you go up against. If you have a guy who consistently beats you, avoid him. Conversely if you have been dominating a few guys. You can search for games they're entered in. You don't have to pay the entry fee to see who your opponent will be.

Another factor to consider. If you enter well in advance and a track comes off the turf or a couple horses you love scratch get the hell out. Some sites will charge you a 10% cancellation fee. But if you contact support with a compelling story and don't ask too often they'll let you re-enter in a different game with no penalty. They'll do that of you're a consistently good customer and don't take advantage of their understanding.

Good Luck

[v j stauffer]

Your not going to run into pro players at the smaller denominations (less than say $50), but honestly I think your going to run into quality players at all levels.

I say this because tournaments are not main stream yet, the players playing them are niche and know the sport.

The amount of $$$ a contest cost is VERY MUCH commensurate with the ability levels of your opponents.

If a guy is elite I guarantee he will up the ante and play bigger games. Water finds it's level gentleman.

Just like poker. The skill level of a 1-2 no limit game will have NOTHING to do with the guys who play 25-50. The best horse players will be in the $750 and $1500 games. Enter at your own risk.

[thaskalos]

The amount of $$$ a contest cost is VERY MUCH commensurate with the ability levels of your opponents.

If a guy is elite I guarantee he will up the ante and play bigger games. Water finds it's level gentleman.

Just like poker. The skill level of a 1-2 no limit game will have NOTHING to do with the guys who play 25-50. The best horse players will be in the $750 and $1500 games. Enter at your own risk.

A question for you, Vic:

I survey the leaderboards at HorseTourneys whenever I remember to...and I notice something that I can't explain. I'll see the same guys winning the SAME heads-up tourneys at two different entry-fee levels...but their winning scores at the higher levels are often LOWER than their scores at the lower levels. Could it be that they "freeze up" when they play for higher stakes...and they aren't as "creative" with their selections as they are when the stakes are lower?

[v j stauffer]

A question for you, Vic:

I survey the leaderboards at HorseTourneys whenever I remember to...and I notice something that I can't explain. I'll see the same guys winning the SAME tourneys at two different entry-fee levels...but their winning scores at the higher levels are often LOWER than their scores at the lower levels. Could it be that they "freeze up" when they play for higher stakes...and they aren't as "creative" with their selections as they are when the stakes are lower?

I wouldn't call it freezing up Thask as much as I would say it's tactics driven. Being in the lead even by 10 cents late in a tourney is massively important. You can discount horses that can't catch you even if they win. And you've always got one shot at a block by using the same horse as your nearest competitor. Since being on the lead is such a valuable position gamesmanship usually in the form of conservatism often becomes a very big factor. I think that's why you're seeing the variance in winning scores.

[castaway01]

I just wanted to say that this was a fun thread and an interesting discussion. I learned a lot about these contests. I found it interesting that you don't see the big-time players in small head-to-head matchups. In daily fantasy sports you'll see the same names looking for head-to-head games from $5 on up to $5000. I guess they figure if they have an edge, the more money they have out there the more they can win with less relative risk.

[v j stauffer]

I just wanted to say that this was a fun thread and an interesting discussion. I learned a lot about these contests. I found it interesting that you don't see the big-time players in small head-to-head matchups. In daily fantasy sports you'll see the same names looking for head-to-head games from $5 on up to $5000. I guess they figure if they have an edge, the more money they have out there the more they can win with less relative risk.

Yeah. Bots are bots and don't care the size of the fish. I wouldn't deal with those sites for all the tea in China.

[JeremyJet]

I just wanted to say that this was a fun thread and an interesting discussion. I learned a lot about these contests.

I learned a lot as well. The main contributors to this thread deserve to get something from HorseTourneys. Because of their assistance HorseTourneys will have a new customer. I'm looking to jump in on the fun this weekend.

Please explain on thing for me, though. I'm looking at this $1000 guaranteed P&P on Sunday. It has a Max of 92 entries. On the contest page it say:

minimum number of entries required to run this contest. Contest minimums must be strictly adhered to.

What's the minimum number? I don't see that information anywhere on the contest page.

[BCOURTNEY]

I learned a lot as well. The main contributors to this thread deserve to get something from HorseTourneys. Because of their assistance HorseTourneys will have a new customer. I'm looking to jump in on the fun this weekend.

Please explain on thing for me, though. I'm looking at this $1000 guaranteed P&P on Sunday. It has a Max of 92 entries. On the contest page it say:

minimum number of entries required to run this contest. Contest minimums must be strictly adhered to.

What's the minimum number? I don't see that information anywhere on the contest page.

The minimum numbers are just that they can support the payout, I wouldn't worry about it, if you enter and the minimum isn't met, you get your money back, if more participate you have a larger pool (and more competition)

[JeremyJet]

The minimum numbers are just that they can support the payout, I wouldn't worry about it, if you enter and the minimum isn't met, you get your money back, if more participate you have a larger pool (and more competition)

Does a contest such as this usually get the max entries?

[v j stauffer]

Does a contest such as this usually get the max entries?

Almost always. If they're short on entries they'll blast an email and that usually does the trick.

[GMB@BP]

Just running some numbers on Head 2 Head play

Lots of talk about how much advantage one player believes they have when only matched against one opponet, and how maybe that compares to other wagering

Assuming a 10% takeout, though I know that can get down to 6% with the much larger head 2 heads. Hoping I did the math right.

50% win rate = 10% loss
55% win rate = 1% loss
60% win rate = 8% profit
65% win rate = 17% profit
70% win rate = 26% profit
75% win rate = 35% profit
80% win rate = 44% profit

Where do you think you would fall in a head 2 head environment.

[ReplayRandall]

Just running some numbers on Head 2 Head play

Lots of talk about how much advantage one player believes they have when only matched against one opponet, and how maybe that compares to other wagering

Assuming a 10% takeout, though I know that can get down to 6% with the much larger head 2 heads. Hoping I did the math right.

50% win rate = 10% loss
55% win rate = 1% loss
60% win rate = 8% profit
65% win rate = 17% profit
70% win rate = 26% profit
75% win rate = 35% profit
80% win rate = 44% profit

Where do you think you would fall in a head 2 head environment.

If I tell you, you'll avoid me....:cool:

[GMB@BP]

If I tell you, you'll avoid me....:cool:

Well thats the thing, everyone thinks they are better than the next guy, the numbers though will not lie to ones bankroll if you are not.

[v j stauffer]

Just running some numbers on Head 2 Head play

Lots of talk about how much advantage one player believes they have when only matched against one opponet, and how maybe that compares to other wagering

Assuming a 10% takeout, though I know that can get down to 6% with the much larger head 2 heads. Hoping I did the math right.

50% win rate = 10% loss
55% win rate = 1% loss
60% win rate = 8% profit
65% win rate = 17% profit
70% win rate = 26% profit
75% win rate = 35% profit
80% win rate = 44% profit

Where do you think you would fall in a head 2 head environment.

If I tell you Randall will avoid me.:cool:

[ReplayRandall]

If I tell you Randall will avoid me.:cool:
That's true, even though we've only played once....

Btw, my tablemates at the NHC wanted to thank you for stopping by and having a short chat.....They were impressed, even though I told them what you're really like after you left....;)

[v j stauffer]

That's true, even though we've only played once....

Btw, my tablemates at the NHC wanted to thank you for stopping by and having a short chat.....They were impressed, even though I told them what you're really like after you left....;)

You gotta be true to your school Randy. I can SOUND like I'm a good guy and know a few things. But we all know better don't we?

[v j stauffer]

Hey check this out.

I played a $179 BCBC Pick N Pray on HorsePlayers today.

In the last race of the contest Del Mar 6. Of the 74 players I'm the ONLY one with :6: California Clone

You talk about an edge over the field!! Sure he can run last. And very well may.

But if I could have one race like that every Pick N Pray I play.

Oh Baby! $$$$$$$$$

In all the years I've been playing these contests I've never had something like this happen for me.

Gotta think he'll run big just because of the anomaly of it.

Let's GO! :headbanger:

[thaskalos]

Just running some numbers on Head 2 Head play

Lots of talk about how much advantage one player believes they have when only matched against one opponet, and how maybe that compares to other wagering

Assuming a 10% takeout, though I know that can get down to 6% with the much larger head 2 heads. Hoping I did the math right.

50% win rate = 10% loss
55% win rate = 1% loss
60% win rate = 8% profit
65% win rate = 17% profit
70% win rate = 26% profit
75% win rate = 35% profit
80% win rate = 44% profit

Where do you think you would fall in a head 2 head environment.

I'll tell you one thing:

It's a lot easier to win 60% of the heads-up tourneys than it is to earn an 8% profit at the parimutuel game.

[v j stauffer]

I'll tell you one thing:

It's a lot easier to win 60% of the heads-up tourneys than it is to earn an 8% profit at the parimutuel game.

Very accurate post.

You'd be shocked to know how many times a person can win a head to head by scoring ANY points.

ZERO from opponents is not all that unusual.

[GMB@BP]

I'll tell you one thing:

It's a lot easier to win 60% of the heads-up tourneys than it is to earn an 8% profit at the parimutuel game.

Thats what I thought as well.

[ReplayRandall]

Thats what I thought as well.
Is that what you thought as well, after only playing tourneys for 9 months?

[GMB@BP]

Is that what you thought as well, after only playing tourneys for 9 months?

I dont know what you mean.

It feels grindy but at the same time profit is profit. Normally in regularly play I am more than happy with 15% profit over the long haul (I dont usually reach that).

I am going to brag a little but in 9 months I have quadrupled my original deposits.

I am just assuming its beginners luck.

[ReplayRandall]

I dont know what you mean.

It feels grindy but at the same time profit is profit. Normally in regularly play I am more than happy with 15% profit over the long haul (I dont usually reach that).

I am going to brag a little but in 9 months I have quadrupled my original deposits.

I am just assuming its beginners luck.

Good for you...pressing up at the higher limits, right?

[GMB@BP]

Good for you...pressing up at the higher limits, right?

No, I usually do low level feeders and then make money on the breakage.

I have won a few small 10-20 player cash events that really helped

My goal is to reach a dollar amount (i am real close) then move to the next range up, but its not high level. I am probably not good enough for that.

[ReplayRandall]

No, I usually do low level feeders and then make money on the breakage.

I have won a few small 10-20 player cash events that really helped

My goal is to reach a dollar amount (i am real close) then move to the next range up, but its not high level. I am probably not good enough for that.


I have a gut feeling you'll do just fine.....

[thaskalos]

Good for you...pressing up at the higher limits, right?

Math question for you, Randall:

If a person is winning 80% of the $22 heads-up tournaments that he plays...how will he fare if he suddenly jumps to the $795 tournaments?

[GMB@BP]

Math question for you, Randall:

If a person is winning 80% of the $22 heads-up tournaments that he plays...how will he fare if he suddenly jumps to the $795 tournaments?

https://horsetourneys.com/leaderboard/contest/340605


dosnt look too tough, lol

[thaskalos]

https://horsetourneys.com/leaderboard/contest/340605


dosnt look too tough, lol

That's what I thought. Why bother climbing up the ladder slowly...when the easy money is there for the taking NOW? :cool:

[ReplayRandall]

Math question for you, Randall:

If a person is winning 80% of the $22 heads-up tournaments that he plays...how will he fare if he suddenly jumps to the $795 tournaments?


Not a math question, it's a player question. If you're moving up to that level, you would have needed to have kept records and tourney styles of those players daily, while you were playing at the lower levels.....It's all about having an edge and beating a specific player that suits your style of heads up play...…Doesn't matter what the cash level is, as long as you've done your homework, long-term the endeavor will be worth it.

[Mulerider]

.....It's all about having an edge and beating a specific player that suits your style of heads up play...…

In other words, don't be the first to sign up for a head-to-head...

[BCOURTNEY]

In other words, don't be the first to sign up for a head-to-head...

They close non entered contests an hour before they close I think, I don't understand it but that happens.

[Suff]

I believe tournaments are the only way to get new blood in to the sport, the 35 and under crowd have been playing fantasy sports for years now. Get them into tournament play, teach them how to handicap then (the hard part) they will learn how to bet. I play on DerbyWars and enjoy it very much, it's a nice get away after I take my break from Hong Kong.

I've been playing the free, 22 and $95 dollar buy in's @drfcontest. Thanks for mentioning these other sites. I also like the sounds of Heads Up play.

@drfcontest, The free contest draws 1500 people, but the Buy-in contest draw 5-20 people. I did a 95 yesterday that had 12.

[Kevroc]

Great posts all around.

Last NHC was my first as well, even though I've been playing tourneys for like 8-9 years.. (it's really tough to qualify)..

Blake.. If I remember correctly, I think I saw you take down a Saratoga Challenge Qualifier??

If so, maybe we can meet. You made some great and insightful posts in this thread. Excellent information, I think I pulled a muscle in my neck nodding along...

DerbyWars has WPS scoring, HorseTourneys has WP and their version of "lockdown" or "Pick & Pray", you can view all of the picks beforehand where on DerbyWars you cannot... DerbyWars does have the best Survivor Contests though and personally, I love the chat and the banter.

DerbyWars will always be my favorite contest site, but it's good to always be looking out for opportunities.

Excellent thread... keep it goin' !

[burnsy]

For anyone coming to Toga on Sundays or Mondays. There's a Low Roller tournament that's fun and doesn't cost squat. 40 dollars, 30 live on a NYRA card and 10 towards the prize money...…..no take out. They usually get about 200 people so the prize money is usually around 2000. 1rst 50%, 2nd 20%, 3rd 15%, 4th 10% and 5th 5%. Plus, any money on your NYRA card 30 minutes after its over is yours. The contest is 5 WPS bets for two bucks. Its usually races 2-9 if there's 10 races. Yesterday they threw in a free hat too for playing. And they had about 220 people play. I came in 4th and lost by about 9 dollars but I have won it before too other years.


For 10 bucks you cant beat it with no take out. I don't know if its on here yet, I didn't feel like going through 15 pages.

[BCOURTNEY]

Blake.. If I remember correctly, I think I saw you take down a Saratoga Challenge Qualifier??

If so, maybe we can meet. You made some great and insightful posts in this thread. Excellent information, I think I pulled a muscle in my neck nodding along...


I'll be at Saratoga next week, going to be around after the sales on Wednesday afternoon.

[Johng032]

I’ve been playing contests for the past 2 years or so. I was lucky enough to qualify for the NHC in the past 2 years. I play mostly on HorseTourneys and HorsePlayers but also play on DRF.

Pick and pray contests forced me to take a long look at all contenders, especially those at 8-1 or higher. It really clarified that picking winners wasn’t the only criteria to playing the horses but picking winners at a price was more important. The hit rate can be lower if the odds made up for the difference.

Playing contests has definitely “moved up” my handicapping. I’ll be playing at Saratoga next weekend as well.

[JeremyJet]

First tourney I got involved in was a eye-opener. I hit the first race of the tourney with a 5/2 shot. Great start, right. Next race a 40/1 shot wins and I'm done after two races. I was amazed that more people picked the 40/1 shot than the 5/2 shot. The 40/1 shot was a 2yo first time starter.

Since there is a cap on winners odds, do you guys think there should be a cap on entries? Like only one per player?

[jeebus1083]

First tourney I got involved in was a eye-opener. I hit the first race of the tourney with a 5/2 shot. Great start, right. Next race a 40/1 shot wins and I'm done after two races. I was amazed that more people picked the 40/1 shot than the 5/2 shot. The 40/1 shot was a 2yo first time starter.

Since there is a cap on winners odds, do you guys think there should be a cap on entries? Like only one per player?

Big part of the game theory surrounding these affairs is that the seasoned tournament players will select a runner who figures to be ignored due to conventional wisdom. It's no coincidence that the same names frequent the leaderboards in these affairs with regularity.

[GMB@BP]

First tourney I got involved in was a eye-opener. I hit the first race of the tourney with a 5/2 shot. Great start, right. Next race a 40/1 shot wins and I'm done after two races. I was amazed that more people picked the 40/1 shot than the 5/2 shot. The 40/1 shot was a 2yo first time starter.

Since there is a cap on winners odds, do you guys think there should be a cap on entries? Like only one per player?

The more people in the tourney the likelyhood of those cap horses getting picked increase, would also say the entry fee factors into. Those 9 dollar events on HT with 60 people entered or gonna have longshots picked in just about every race, 2/1 horse comes in and like 5 people will have it.

You still have to pick winners, its not random, longshots only win a very small percentage of time, and you have to be on that when they do.

My best finishes are when I have hit a mix of probably horses and mid priced horses. I have never hit a cap horse yet, best was 14/1. I have played in a bout 50 events, at least, this year but the big fields I play in might have 50 players with at least a 100 dollar fee to enter.

[JeremyJet]

I'm curious how long it takes some of you guys to handicap a full card? I see some guys at HT are there seven days a week .... and they're playing multiple tracks. That's a lot of work if the handicapping is being done in a traditional manner.

I've been trying to adjust to the tournament format from the way I would usually play. I haven't handicapped a full card of nine races since simulcasting began ... and I like to dutch, so zeroing in on one horse has been an adjustment.

[v j stauffer]

First tourney I got involved in was a eye-opener. I hit the first race of the tourney with a 5/2 shot. Great start, right. Next race a 40/1 shot wins and I'm done after two races. I was amazed that more people picked the 40/1 shot than the 5/2 shot. The 40/1 shot was a 2yo first time starter.

Since there is a cap on winners odds, do you guys think there should be a cap on entries? Like only one per player?

Sure. There's lots of head to head matchups. From $20 to $795. I'm in a Saratoga $795 tomorrow if you'd like to follow along. Bring me good luck.

[JeremyJet]

For sure, buddy. You've been tremendous throughout this thread. It's the least I can do. Good luck tomorrow.

One of these days I want to play against you. 😁

Maybe we get three other players and do a 5 player Winner Take All. Just give me a little more time. It was either Mr. Thask or Mr. Courtney who mentioned getting a plan and then executing that plan. I'm in the process of trying to get that taken care of. I'm mindful of not over thinking things, but I have to be comfortable ... cause I wanna win. 😁

[GMB@BP]

I'm curious how long it takes some of you guys to handicap a full card? I see some guys at HT are there seven days a week .... and they're playing multiple tracks. That's a lot of work if the handicapping is being done in a traditional manner.

I've been trying to adjust to the tournament format from the way I would usually play. I haven't handicapped a full card of nine races since simulcasting began ... and I like to dutch, so zeroing in on one horse has been an adjustment.

This was my problem as well, needed to be able to handle more tracks in a much faster fashion, yet still continue to get results.

I subscribed to a data and race computer program to cut down the time, for me now its about 30-40 minutes for a 8 race contest.

[jay68802]

Sure. There's lots of head to head matchups. From $20 to $795. I'm in a Saratoga $795 tomorrow if you'd like to follow along. Bring me good luck.

Good luck, and put..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsrvmNtWU4E

[JeremyJet]

This was my problem as well, needed to be able to handle more tracks in a much faster fashion, yet still continue to get results.

I subscribed to a data and race computer program to cut down the time, for me now its about 30-40 minutes for a 8 race contest.

Wow. You're gonna think I'm crazy, but if I spend 30 minutes on one race I feel like I'm doing good on time.

You don't have to tell me the service you subscribe too, but is is readily available to the public, or is it more of a private situation you're involved with?

[GMB@BP]

Wow. You're gonna think I'm crazy, but if I spend 30 minutes on one race I feel like I'm doing good on time.

You don't have to tell me the service you subscribe too, but is is readily available to the public, or is it more of a private situation you're involved with?

no public. there are about 7-8 data and racing software that is out there that are popular, i would suggest doing a serious due diligence before embarking in something like that.

I normally would spend about 20 min a race. I a typical weekend I will do about 40-50 contest races so had to get that number down.

[JeremyJet]

no public. there are about 7-8 data and racing software that is out there that are popular, i would suggest doing a serious due diligence before embarking in something like that.

I normally would spend about 20 min a race. I a typical weekend I will do about 40-50 contest races so had to get that number down.

Yeah, man, you're talking a whole new world here. I have no plan to look for something like that. I feel like it has to be me that's doing the handicapping and going through the process.

But I had my suspicions something like what you described was going on at HT.

[v j stauffer]

Sure. There's lots of head to head matchups. From $20 to $795. I'm in a Saratoga $795 tomorrow if you'd like to follow along. Bring me good luck.

Not home yet but the $795.00 HorseTourneys head to head is looking positive. Up $38.30 to $12.40 with two races to go. :coffee:

[stringmail]

The guy you are playing against is also playing in 2 other live $3K events and mirrored his picks on all 3 until he fell behind.

It would seem any level of data mining of this guys history would probably yield a high degree of confidence as to the horse he would pick in the upcoming race(s).

I'm too lazy to do that but is there any advantage you can gain when a competitor is playing multiple events?

Clearly, one shouldn't be playing for live and fixed at the same time or you risk giving away too much information.

[v j stauffer]

The guy you are playing against is also playing in 2 other live $3K events and mirrored his picks on all 3 until he fell behind.

It would seem any level of data mining of this guys history would probably yield a high degree of confidence as to the horse he would pick in the upcoming race(s).

I'm too lazy to do that but is there any advantage you can gain when a competitor is playing multiple events?

Clearly, one shouldn't be playing for live and fixed at the same time or you risk giving away too much information.

Elite players never make the mistake of combining a fixed game and live. Knowing your opponents styles and tendencies is extremely important. In my game he will for sure use a different horse against me than in his games that are closer. That's another reason why if I decide to play multiple games it will always be fixed rather than live. I never want to get into a position where I don't know who to root for. Thanks for checking and the heads up. The PA brethren have to have each others backs!

[JeremyJet]

Looking good, Vic.

What's the strategy going into the last race? Looking for 12/1 & up?

[v j stauffer]

Elite players never make the mistake of combining a fixed game and live. Knowing your opponents styles and tendencies is extremely important. In my game he will for sure use a different horse against me than in his games that are closer. That's another reason why if I decide to play multiple games it will always be fixed rather than live. I never want to get into a position where I don't know who to root for. Thanks for checking and the heads up. The PA brethren have to have each others backs!

The horse I ended up using in the 9th #:9: Varenka had absolutely zero to do with who I thought would win the race. With a lead of $25.90 I knew there would be ZERO chance he would use either the :1: or :10:. Even if one of them won he would still be in stabbing position going into the last. So that left three others. The :8: also seemed unlikely because even with a win my opponent would still be trailing going into the last. I CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH HOW IMPORTANT LATE LEADS ARE. Even 10 cents is a monster advantage. So that left me with three choices. :2: :5: & :9: My goal now is to try to figure out who he'll use. Any of the three could have put him on the lead. I decided on :9: because it was the horse that would be the most :puke:inducing for my chances. Got lucky and guessed right. So now we go to the 10th. I will have several horses on my team in this race. Because any horse that cannot pay a combined $25.90 is a winner for me. So now I will once again try to figure who will be my best blocking opportunity. If I guess right. Show's over. If I don't block he will have ONE chance. Whomever he picks which MUST be the requisite price. Chances are clearly in my favor. But BY NO MEANS am I home. I've lost many and won my share in these type situations. Wish me luck! Also, he MUST make sure he doesn't take the same horse as me. Which will send a player a bit further out on the fringes. But I know that too. As we get to post any horse that is "close" to the right price, a tweener, but MIGHT get bet under what he needs is pretty much out too. Final thought is he also has to factor in what If he hit the winner but I finish 2nd? That sends him further out on the fringes.You'll find yourself rooting the tote board. Hoping for as many horses as possible to be bet down inside the threshold. Pretty fun stuff!

[stringmail]

interesting going's-on in this race. you might win by default as his odds keep dropping with the scratches....wow

[v j stauffer]

TRAGIC DEVELOPMENT: :1: scratched. :1a: now runs purse money only. That takes two of my winning horses out of the mix. :rant::puke:. Since there's a delay I can now say he has :9: so he can assuredly win because I took :11:. I'll have to live with that though because :11: was my original pick anyway. Let's GO! No :9::9::9::9::9::9::9::9::9:

[stringmail]

The interesting result is going to be your competitors contest against DeRosa where he has the place horse trailing by $.60 and DeRosa had the winner.

Congrats on your win.

[v j stauffer]

OMG OMG at midstretch it looked like :9: was going to get all the $$$. :eek: it's never easy. :headbanger:

[JeremyJet]

Good job, Vic. Congratulations.

[v j stauffer]

Good job, Vic. Congratulations.

Thanks.That win will fund my Sat & Sun BCBC qualifiers.

And so it goes.:coffee:

[JeremyJet]

I thought for sure you were going to select the #8 or #9 based on the odds for a block. What was the thought process going with the #11 who went off at something like 7/1?

[v j stauffer]

This was my problem as well, needed to be able to handle more tracks in a much faster fashion, yet still continue to get results.

I subscribed to a data and race computer program to cut down the time, for me now its about 30-40 minutes for a 8 race contest.

I take 30-40 minutes PER race in an 8 race card. :coffee::coffee:

Positive side is I can only look at two tracks. NY and So. Cal.

Makes it tough when I have to play contests with other tracks like the BCBC qualifiers.

[v j stauffer]

I thought for sure you were going to select the #8 or #9 based on the odds for a block. What was the thought process going with the #11 who went off at something like 7/1?

He was 11 to 1 before the :1: was scratched. Our picks were locked in before the :1: flipped in the gate just before they sprung it. As I said. It's NEVER easy. :rant:

[JeremyJet]

I take 30-40 minutes PER race in an 8 race card. :coffee::coffee:

Positive side is I can only look at two tracks. NY and So. Cal.

Makes it tough when I have to play contests with other tracks like the BCBC qualifiers.

Yup, that's what I'm talking about. 30 to 40 minutes per race might look like a long time to some, but it comes out to a couple minutes per horse. Not much time to formulate an opinion.

[v j stauffer]

The horse I ended up using in the 9th #:9: Varenka had absolutely zero to do with who I thought would win the race. With a lead of $25.90 I knew there would be ZERO chance he would use either the :1: or :10:. Even if one of them won he would still be in stabbing position going into the last. So that left three others. The :8: also seemed unlikely because even with a win my opponent would still be trailing going into the last. I CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH HOW IMPORTANT LATE LEADS ARE. Even 10 cents is a monster advantage. So that left me with three choices. :2: :5: & :9: My goal now is to try to figure out who he'll use. Any of the three could have put him on the lead. I decided on :9: because it was the horse that would be the most :puke:inducing for my chances. Got lucky and guessed right. So now we go to the 10th. I will have several horses on my team in this race. Because any horse that cannot pay a combined $25.90 is a winner for me. So now I will once again try to figure who will be my best blocking opportunity. If I guess right. Show's over. If I don't block he will have ONE chance. Whomever he picks which MUST be the requisite price. Chances are clearly in my favor. But BY NO MEANS am I home. I've lost many and won my share in these type situations. Wish me luck! Also, he MUST make sure he doesn't take the same horse as me. Which will send a player a bit further out on the fringes. But I know that too. As we get to post any horse that is "close" to the right price, a tweener, but MIGHT get bet under what he needs is pretty much out too. Final thought is he also has to factor in what If he hit the winner but I finish 2nd? That sends him further out on the fringes.You'll find yourself rooting the tote board. Hoping for as many horses as possible to be bet down inside the threshold. Pretty fun stuff!

Here's another thing to consider when thinking about playing tournaments and specifically head to head matchups.

Remember I said I was going to take yesterdays winnings and play a BCBC qualifier today?

I decided to pass. I hated the 4 races at my non go to tracks Woodbine & Gulfstream. Plus I was not big fan of Saratoga 7 thru 10.

HOWEVER!!

Let's not lose sight that I'm a proud sicko and always need some action. So I signed up and played "one" $430 HorseTourneys head to head.

For the 8 races I accumulated a whopping $15.20. But! It was good enough to win.

Moral of the story is against the windows I would have crushed today. But in my head to head I only had one person to beat.

It worked out. I'M NOT GLOATING or seeking atta boy's.

Just sharing because I am a HUGE advocate of tournament play and would love to see more and more people get involved.

On to Del Mar!! Let's GO! :headbanger: