Can't believe these MLB pull-hitters are whining about facing a shift

[Robert Fischer]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24049347/mlb-hitters-explain-why-just-beat-shift

Weak.

Back off the plate a little bit and drive inside pitches to opposite field homeruns or doubles.

Should be able to do that at will if you call yourself a hitter.

Dare the pitcher to start trying to sneak fastballs by you on the outside corner while they are in a shift. See how that out works out for them.

""I think the easiest way to do it would be for guys to play where they've played for all the time the game has been around. Two guys on the left side. Two guys on the right side. You have a designated area where the shortstop, third baseman, second baseman and first baseman all go, and you play there. That would be the simplest way. Is it gonna happen? I don't know. But if you're looking to help even out the advantage that pitchers have over the hitters, that's the only way to do it.''
-Matt Carpenter :blush:

[jimmyb]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24049347/mlb-hitters-explain-why-just-beat-shift

Weak.

Back off the plate a little bit and drive inside pitches to opposite field homeruns or doubles.

Should be able to do that at will if you call yourself a hitter.

Dare the pitcher to start trying to sneak fastballs by you on the outside corner while they are in a shift. See how that out works out for them.

""I think the easiest way to do it would be for guys to play where they've played for all the time the game has been around. Two guys on the left side. Two guys on the right side. You have a designated area where the shortstop, third baseman, second baseman and first baseman all go, and you play there. That would be the simplest way. Is it gonna happen? I don't know. But if you're looking to help even out the advantage that pitchers have over the hitters, that's the only way to do it.''
-Matt Carpenter :blush:

Over the years, Ted Williams encountered shifts quite often, and for a long time he, famously and proudly, didn't do much in the way of altering his approach with the bat. None other than Ty Cobb called him "stupid" for not being more adaptable.



Finally, a bit of advice from another great hitter helped Williams attack the shift by going the other way without tinkering too much with his cherished and carefully honed swing.

[MutuelClerk]

Hit it where they ain't.

[Robert Fischer]

They made some interesting arguments against ground balls to short(for leftys) and ground balls in general.

I understand that hitting a ball off the wall in left center is foreign to some of these left-handed pull hitters. They've spent their life's work trying to pull right-handed pitching into the right field porch.

But at some point, if extreme action is taken against you in one direction, you have to embrace adaptability...

Shoot, if I love My Boy Jack at 20-1 or whatever the Kentucky Derby morning line says, and come the day of the race he's 5-1 on the board... I'm adapting. I'm not riding my lemming off the cliff.

"The tactical result of an engagement forms the base for new strategic decisions because victory or defeat in a battle changes the situation to such a degree that no human acumen is able to see beyond the first battle. In this sense one should understand Napoleon's saying: "I have never had a plan of operations."
Therefore no plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force." - Helmuth von Moltke the Elder (expounding upon Napoleon Bonaparte).


Some smart guy decided you wouldn't adapt. And they (over)shifted. And then a bunch of teams started following suit, until it has become an interesting fad in today's game of baseball.
They shift and it dictates that they feed you hard stuff inside. They want you to pull the ball on the ground. They want it it to be difficult to drive (or even to simply get good wood on the ball) to the opposite field.

So if you back away from the plate a bit, perhaps close your stance a touch from normal... You are now putting the pitcher in a bad situation. If he tries to paint the outside corner; then he's pitching to the shift's weakness. Of course this isn't going to work against a Greg Maddux who can cut the ball both ways from a pitch that looks the same initially, but you are facing a lot of big horses who come in out of the bullpen and throw 95+fastballs and a slider. These guys are kicking in your door on the inside part of the plate.

[thaskalos]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24049347/mlb-hitters-explain-why-just-beat-shift

Weak.

Back off the plate a little bit and drive inside pitches to opposite field homeruns or doubles.

Should be able to do that at will if you call yourself a hitter.

Dare the pitcher to start trying to sneak fastballs by you on the outside corner while they are in a shift. See how that out works out for them.

""I think the easiest way to do it would be for guys to play where they've played for all the time the game has been around. Two guys on the left side. Two guys on the right side. You have a designated area where the shortstop, third baseman, second baseman and first baseman all go, and you play there. That would be the simplest way. Is it gonna happen? I don't know. But if you're looking to help even out the advantage that pitchers have over the hitters, that's the only way to do it.''
-Matt Carpenter :blush:

If a dead-pull hitter is trying to hit the ball the OTHER way...shouldn't he be moving UP in the batter's box, instead of backing off the plate? If the batter moved UP in the box, then his swing would be a tad late...thus causing the ball to travel the other way by necessity. NO?

[Robert Fischer]

That would work although you'd have to adjust for reaction time and bat position. However, you'd have less overall adjustment than with my approach.

Whatever method you choose, you have to either adapt or if you are set in your ways; overcome the shift by hitting through it...

It's ridiculous to campaign for rules that outlaw defensive shifts.

Even the NBA has accepted zone defense. Although in a comparison like man-vs-zone, you could almost say that traditional MLB defense is the 'zone' and the shifts are more 'man-to-man'... Regardless, much different sports.

[barahona44]

One of the goals of the shift is to minimize a batters power.Ther's a reason switch hitters usually have better numbers,especially power numbers, from one side of the plate as opposed to the other.Opposite field home runs aren't rare but most sluggers it's usually between 10 to 20 % .

[Valuist]

I blame poor coaching and lack of fundamentals. A hitter is supposed to learn how to HIT first; not just swing from their heels to see how far they can hit.
But you get some guys who just can overwhelm bad pitching in HS and college so they never have to learn to use the whole field. Then they finally get to a level where the pitchers are every bit as talented, and they can't adjust.

[Nutz and Boltz]

I used to live and breathe baseball, now I barely watch and never watch the All-Star game. I was listening to an announcer on WFAN , Steve Summers ,who was comparing the participants of the All Star home run derby today to the old TV show "Home Run Derby" where every week you saw legends like Mantle, Williams, Mays, Aaron, etc. hitting homers for a few hundred dollars in prizes. Now we get Matt Muncy ? :rant:

[thaskalos]

I blame poor coaching and lack of fundamentals. A hitter is supposed to learn how to HIT first; not just swing from their heels to see how far they can hit.
But you get some guys who just can overwhelm bad pitching in HS and college so they never have to learn to use the whole field. Then they finally get to a level where the pitchers are every bit as talented, and they can't adjust.

Can't some of these dead-pull hitters even lay down a BUNT the other way? The way some of these shifts are set up...a well-placed bunt could go for a DOUBLE.

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

lost a lot of interest in MLB as the game has changed for the worse imo.

* The strike out level is astounding
* The whining of the so-called stars and the shifts
* The ridiculous amount of key injuries every year
* The lack of fundamental play
* Bunting is virtually a lost art
* Starters content to go 5 innings (tell that to Seaver or Gibson)
* Pitchers in-ability to command their pitches and throw strikes
* The lack of hustle by certain players who seem to be saving their energy
* The hitters rant when a pitcher throws inside

I could go on and on but you get the picture. when I was 5 years old in 1965 i knew every player in the game. It was a magical time then when the sport was a game and not a business. What a shame!

[kingfin66]

lost a lot of interest in MLB as the game has changed for the worse imo.

* The strike out level is astounding
* The whining of the so-called stars and the shifts
* The ridiculous amount of key injuries every year
* The lack of fundamental play
* Bunting is virtually a lost art
* Starters content to go 5 innings (tell that to Seaver or Gibson)
* Pitchers in-ability to command their pitches and throw strikes
* The lack of hustle by certain players who seem to be saving their energy
* The hitters rant when a pitcher throws inside

I could go on and on but you get the picture. when I was 5 years old in 1965 i knew every player in the game. It was a magical time then when the sport was a game and not a business. What a shame!

I agree with pretty much all of this. The game has become pretty unwatchable. I don't know that pitchers are necessarily content to go 5 innings so much as they are now conditioned to that by pitch counts and even limitation on innings pitched when they are early in their careers. Team now carry seven relief pitchers on the roster and still manage to overuse some of them.

[thaskalos]

I watch the games more than I ever did...because now I bet on them on a daily basis. But the frustrating thing, from a bettor's perspective, is that the bullpens are getting more innings than ever before...and there is no reliable way by which to form an adequate handicapping rating for the bullpen. I know how to assess the prowess of the starting pitchers and the closers...but there is no way of knowing which middle-relievers will get into the game.

[Robert Fischer]

It's weird seeing stat lines from stars like Bryce Harper (https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/harpebr03.shtml) that make guys like Mickey Tettleton (https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tettlmi01.shtml)seem 'ahead of their time'.

[woodbinepmi]

Can't some of these dead-pull hitters even lay down a BUNT the other way? The way some of these shifts are set up...a well-placed bunt could go for a DOUBLE.

AMEN! Somebody teach these guys how to bunt and it would all stop.

[AJanks]

Question for everyone: Why is it against the code to bunt on a shift? If you can do it, there's no shame in it. Successfully bunting in today's game is a lost skill, anyways...

[Robert Fischer]

Question for everyone: Why is it against the code to bunt on a shift? If you can do it, there's no shame in it. Successfully bunting in today's game is a lost skill, anyways...

Most of that 'code' is the lack of skill, and the ego-block.

It's also a strategy thing. 'Manufacturing a run' is considered passé. And they're right; Slugging beats small-ball in general.

But most of the time if they are in an extreme shift and giving you a free bunt single, you would benefit from a good bunt.

[MutuelClerk]

Question for everyone: Why is it against the code to bunt on a shift? If you can do it, there's no shame in it. Successfully bunting in today's game is a lost skill, anyways...

Bunting for a hit I agree 100%. In most cases a sacrifice bunt I disagree 100%. The game of baseball has changed a ton. The baseball code needs to keep up.

[Valuist]

Most of that 'code' is the lack of skill, and the ego-block.

It's also a strategy thing. 'Manufacturing a run' is considered passé. And they're right; Slugging beats small-ball in general.

But most of the time if they are in an extreme shift and giving you a free bunt single, you would benefit from a good bunt.

Slugging beats small ball in the regular season.

Manufacturing runs beats relying on the HR in the post season. Always has, and always will. Games often played in cooler weather and HR hitters often worn out by October swinging from their heels for over 500 at bats. Speed and defense don't slump, but power does.

[Robert Fischer]

Historic day for one of the guys cited in the original post for whining about the shift.

3HRs 2 Doubles ...

To think, we wanted him to bunt!

https://www.mlb.com/news/matt-carpenter-makes-history-with-3-hrs-2-2bs/c-286530588

[Zydeco]

It's weird seeing stat lines from stars like Bryce Harper (https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/harpebr03.shtml) that make guys like Mickey Tettleton (https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tettlmi01.shtml)seem 'ahead of their time'.

Mickey Tettleton!!! Classic! Ask CJ!! lol

[Robert Fischer]

Mickey Tettleton!!! Classic! Ask CJ!! lol

I want to hear that story as well! :ThmbUp:

I remember Mickey as an Oriole / Tiger who had a unique batting stance, seemed to walk or strikeout or homer half the time, and claimed his batting power came from Froot Loops cereal. :)
Offensive numbers actually pretty good considering that he was a catcher for a significant amount of games...

[Robert Fischer]

Mickey Tettleton had that batting stance where he'd start with bat relaxed and pointed toward the catcher... (he'd come to a more traditional position as he timed the pitch and started his stride)
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/mickey-tettleton-of-the-texas-rangers-bats-against-the-california-at-picture-id837914932

Opposite extreme from that time was Julio Franco :) his bat was also parallel to the ground, but he'd point the barrel-end the opposite way toward the pitcher...
http://www.ysbp.com/ballparks/030614_6.jpg

I wonder if kids today can mimic and identify all the stances like we could?

[burnsy]

Can't some of these dead-pull hitters even lay down a BUNT the other way? The way some of these shifts are set up...a well-placed bunt could go for a DOUBLE.


No, because its just what Valuist stated. Every kid is not taught how to hit ( all the moves and all the fundamentals). The sad thing is the best hitters are the ones that don't get taught. That's why you have the stars bitching about the shift. From the time a coach sees power in a kid....they see one thing.....pulling shots. Most times....he will never be taught to bunt or go the other way.....hardly ever. Or not enough time will be spent to master it. They want power from these guys. The art of "scratching" off runs is almost a lost one. Unless its a huge game with great pitchers. Just like he pointed out.

There was a replay today where one of these guys bunted and it worked. I forgot to notice who it was or what team it was. But when guys are bitching and looking for a rule change...……...you know they can't handle it with the bat. Plus, its hard to develop and adjust at that level, when you weren't taught since you were 13 or 14 years old. Just like he stated.

[Valuist]

I watch the games more than I ever did...because now I bet on them on a daily basis. But the frustrating thing, from a bettor's perspective, is that the bullpens are getting more innings than ever before...and there is no reliable way by which to form an adequate handicapping rating for the bullpen. I know how to assess the prowess of the starting pitchers and the closers...but there is no way of knowing which middle-relievers will get into the game.

Fangraphs has a lot of stat breakdowns. You can get quite a few specifics for team bullpens including strikeout to walk ratio, soft and hard contact %s. I believe strikeout/walk ratio is much more significant for relievers, as they are often brought in during high leverage situations. Strikeouts are overrated for starting pitchers, IMO. They often end up piling up pitch counts too early in a game.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Most of that 'code' is the lack of skill, and the ego-block.

It's also a strategy thing. 'Manufacturing a run' is considered passé. And they're right; Slugging beats small-ball in general.

But most of the time if they are in an extreme shift and giving you a free bunt single, you would benefit from a good bunt.

It's an interesting thing. If teams were shifting in the 50's like today and Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle decided to bunt the other teams to death, their value would drop while their BA rose. The shifting team would be happy not to watch their balls fly out of the park. Guys like Mantle and Mays (and now like Giancarlo Stanton) are getting paid to give the fans the most exciting play in baseball - the home run. I hate the strikeouts, but it's still exciting to know teams like the Yankees, Houston, or Boston are never out of a game.

When I played baseball in high school it was expected every player could move a man from second to third by hitting to the right side, or bunt a man to second.

In a funny way the strikeout can be less deleterious to the team than hitting a grounder for a double play.

Hitters often wait for pitches now. If they don't get "their pitch" they may wind up returning to the bench without ever getting the bat off their shoulder. Baseball will never be the same game it was. I guess you either adapt to change or go to another sport.

[Valuist]

It's an interesting thing. If teams were shifting in the 50's like today and Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle decided to bunt the other teams to death, their value would drop while their BA rose. The shifting team would be happy not to watch their balls fly out of the park. Guys like Mantle and Mays (and now like Giancarlo Stanton) are getting paid to give the fans the most exciting play in baseball - the home run. I hate the strikeouts, but it's still exciting to know teams like the Yankees, Houston, or Boston are never out of a game.

When I played baseball in high school it was expected every player could move a man from second to third by hitting to the right side, or bunt a man to second.

In a funny way the strikeout can be less deleterious to the team than hitting a grounder for a double play.

Hitters often wait for pitches now. If they don't get "their pitch" they may wind up returning to the bench without ever getting the bat off their shoulder. Baseball will never be the same game it was. I guess you either adapt to change or go to another sport.

The top HR hitters still only hit a HR about once every 15 plate appearances. There have been a few hitters who have bunted against the shift, or were more willing to hit to the opposite field. After a number of times, the shifts stop. They may still be played to pull, but no severe shift.

IMO the game is getting ruined and the obsession with pitch velocity is driving it. It's meant more strikeouts, more walks, more foul balls, more full counts, and some more HRs as well, but all of those factors are prolonging the game. And not only slowing the pace, but less balls in play. While defense hasn't been eliminated, its been diminished. Baserunning has been largely eliminated.

Maybe some day the NFL will be flag football and for MLB they will just have a pitcher, a hitter and a wall with a strike zone marked and if a ball gets hit a certain distance its a double, HR, etc.

[AndyC]

It's an interesting thing. If teams were shifting in the 50's like today and Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle decided to bunt the other teams to death, their value would drop while their BA rose. The shifting team would be happy not to watch their balls fly out of the park. Guys like Mantle and Mays (and now like Giancarlo Stanton) are getting paid to give the fans the most exciting play in baseball - the home run. I hate the strikeouts, but it's still exciting to know teams like the Yankees, Houston, or Boston are never out of a game.

When I played baseball in high school it was expected every player could move a man from second to third by hitting to the right side, or bunt a man to second.

In a funny way the strikeout can be less deleterious to the team than hitting a grounder for a double play.

Hitters often wait for pitches now. If they don't get "their pitch" they may wind up returning to the bench without ever getting the bat off their shoulder. Baseball will never be the same game it was. I guess you either adapt to change or go to another sport.

I think Ted Williams was the first to face a shift. His success probably deterred future efforts of such a strategy.

[Robert Fischer]

I think Ted Williams was the first to face a shift. His success probably deterred future efforts of such a strategy.

Over the years, Ted Williams encountered shifts quite often, and for a long time he, famously and proudly, didn't do much in the way of altering his approach with the bat. None other than Ty Cobb called him "stupid" for not being more adaptable.



Finally, a bit of advice from another great hitter helped Williams attack the shift by going the other way without tinkering too much with his cherished and carefully honed swing.

When I had such a hard time with Boudreau’s shift, and ones like it that sprung
up in 1947 and afterward, I survived by learning to hit to left field. Everybody was
saying—and the Boston writers were writing—that I wasn’t trying to hit to left, that
I was too stubborn, that all I cared about was ramming the ball into the teeth of
that shift, getting base hits in spite of it. The fact was, I was having a hard time
learning to hit to left. It wasn’t because I didn’t get any advice. Of that I got a
truckload.
Ty Cobb wrote me a two-page letter, outlining how he would do it. We met at
Yankee Stadium during the 1947 World Series, and he took me around behind a
telephone booth and we talked. He said, “Oh, boy, Ted, if they had ever pulled that
stuff on me, that drastic shift . . . ,” and his mouth was watering, seeing in his
mind’s eye the immortal Ty Cobb lashing the ball into that open range in left field.

https://sports.cbsimg.net/images/visual/whatshot/cardsted-1946WS-shift-121613-2.bmp

Well, Cobb was more of a push hitter, a slap hitter. He choked up two inches from
the bottom and held the bat with his hands four inches apart. He stood close to the
plate, his hands forward. He had great ability to push the ball, to lash hits all
around. He was a great athlete, maybe the greatest, but he was a completely
different animal from me, and his words were like Greek.

The arc of my swing was much greater than Cobb’s What he said would apply to
guys more his type, guys who choked up on the bat more and pushed the ball
around. That wasn’t in me. I was down, with a longer stroke, a greater arc.

When I beat the shift, I did it by taking my stance a little farther from the plate,
striding slightly more into the pitch—but concentrating on getting on top of the ball
and pushing it. A push swing, an inside-out swing, fully extended, the hands ahead
of the fat part of the bat. This produced contact at 90 degrees or more from the
direction of the pitch, and sent the ball to the left of the pitcher’s box, away from
the shift. Almost like hitting pepper. Pepper can help you with this technique. In
fact, pepper is a great warmup game for any hitter, and as a manager I’m going to
insist that the Senators do more of it. I was always amazed when I’d go to the Red
Sox camp those last years to see them playing volleyball, when pepper is ten times
better exercise for ballplayers—pitchers included.

No hitter has it all. There probably never has been what you would call the
“complete” hitter. Ruth struck out more than he should have. Cobb didn’t have the
power, he didn’t have great style. Harry Heilmann wasn’t serious enough. Shoeless
Joe Jackson must have come close because all the old-time hitters used to talk about
how great he was, how complete a hitter he was, but of all the hitters I saw—if I had
to name one guy—I suppose it would be Rogers Hornsby. Hornsby was the closest
to the complete hitter—style, power, smartness, everything.
I’ll never forget as a twenty-year-old kid in camp with the Minneapolis team at
Daytona Beach, standing around the batting cage or in the lobby of the hotel,
picking Hornsby’s brains for everything I could, even personal things I had no right
knowing: How much money did you lose at the track? How much did you bet? And
he’d stay out there with me every day after practice and we’d have hitting contests,
just the two of us, and that old rascal would just keeping zinging those line drives.
Hornsby used to say, “A great hitter isn’t born, he’s made. He’s made out of
practice, fault correction and confidence.” Hornsby was talking about himself, I
think. He had a lot of confidence. He wasn’t a very diplomatic guy. He’d come right
out and say things, whatever was on his mind. If the owner of the club said
something about baseball he didn’t like, Hornsby would just say, “What the hell do
you know about it?” But he knew what it took to hit. :)

[Dave Schwartz]

I don't know if anyone has posted this, but what a perfect way to combat the shift.

(Could not find this video anywhere but Facebook. If anyone has a better link, please post.)

Could easily be titled, "Bunt for a Double."

https://facebook.com/thebsbking/videos/843395722515451/?comment_tracking=%7B"tn"%3A"O"%7D

[proximity]

at the other extreme I did have to just roll my eyes a little at colorado (leading 10-0, now 14-0 lol) having a shift on for..... Andrew knapp! :rolleyes:

where did they even get the data for this?! they shoulda put everyone behind home plate incase the catcher missed the ball. :rolleyes:

yes, he struck out....again. :rolleyes: