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HIGH ROLLER
09-02-2004, 11:54 PM
hi, can anyone with the paper and pencil method tell me a few of the key rules?

PaceAdvantage
09-03-2004, 12:36 AM
For free?

Speed Figure
09-03-2004, 12:58 AM
Why not just buy the program, it's only $125.

HIGH ROLLER
09-03-2004, 06:35 AM
don't want to start a flame thread, but when will you fools understand the world has changed? people are free to exchange idea's, we are not robots beholden to the corporate mentality, besides rpm is one of the worst rip=off outfits that has ever been.

if two people exchange ideas its no ones business, so please find something else to do.

betchatoo
09-03-2004, 07:46 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by HIGH ROLLER
[B]don't want to start a flame thread, but when will you fools understand the world has changed? people are free to exchange idea's, we are not robots beholden to the corporate mentality, besides rpm is one of the worst rip=off outfits that has ever been.

Show- A- Profit is the property of Jon Worth of TIPS Reports. Jon is one of the most honorable people in this business. People do exchange ideas here all the time, but if you want someone's system, buy it

HIGH ROLLER
09-03-2004, 09:23 AM
yea, i see where they are all HONORABLE people on the PA board that are knocking ME for what THEY do themselves! show me a guy that sez he has NEVER received a pirated(FREE) piece of horsey software or a FREE copy of a paper and pencil method and i'll show you a FREAKING LIAR!

RonTiller
09-03-2004, 09:40 AM
HIGH ROLLER,

You don't want to start a flame thread but...
1. The Subject title is "Fools".
2. You address your remarks to "you fools".
3. You SEEM to imply that at least SOME people on this message board are "robots beholden to the corporate mentality" (whatever that is).
4. You state that RPM "is one of the worst rip=off outfits that has ever been".

Imagine if you actually WANTED to start a flame thread!!!

I'll second the thoughts by betchatoo concerning Jon Worth. I've had dealings with Jon in the past, both as a customer (buying his systems and subscribing to his TIPS Newsletter) and as a potential business associate. I have no evidence to the contrary that Jon is anything other than an honorable, honest, decent hardworking man who loves handicapping and puts out very well designed and produced products. The time and work that goes into his products is almost certainly only partially offset by the money he charges for them. And I might point out that he is carrying forward the TIPS methodology that was originally developed in the 1950s (I believe) by his father Tom Worth. No fly-by-night, corporate, rip-em-off-and-don't-leave-a-return-address operation this is.

For sure, there is no shortage of people who include under the mantle of "free exchange of ideas" the free exchange of other people's ideas, purchased as copyrighted products. And there is no shortage of justifications (or rebuffs to those who disagree): free speech, breaking free of robotized corporate mentality, they screwed us so we'll screw them, it's none of your business, etc.

To everybody on this message board who eschews this way of thinking (which apparently is most), good for you.

From a robotized, corporate mentalitied fool,

Ron Tiller
HDW

PS: If anybody has some time, can you post the complete text of Dave Schwartz's pars on the message board.

CapperLou
09-03-2004, 01:21 PM
I would suggest that you purchase the software directly from Jon Worth. His phone number is listed in an earlier post on this thread. I did that and am satisfied with it. It is $100 plus S&H if you get it directly from him.

It seems to be a decent piece of software if it is used in the right situations. Research has shown that it is best used in maiden claiming races only. AND--you should play selections when they are 3-1 to 12-1 to win or win and place. I do not play to show, but some people who use it do.

Hope this helps you!!!

All the best,

CapperLou

P.S. I use this software to compliment Equisim and when I come up with the same horse in a md claimer race--I have what might be called an even stronger chance of winning.

Jeep
09-03-2004, 02:37 PM
In the mid to late 60's a guy named Tarbox using the name Jack Carson used to buy up all the systems on the market and put 6 or 7 together monthly and sell them. He was eventually sued by some system writer and lost, so had to quit. Tom Worth sold systems back then and the Carson thing, called "The Fidelity System Book" had many of his systems in it. In the November-December 1968 book there was a system called The "Combination Method" by Ira Johnson. This system is a whole lot like the TIPS thing. I still have many of the old books and have the "Combination Method". My point is, is that Tom Worth got his idea for the TIPS thing from someone else, this was not his brain child, unless Ira Johnson took his Combination thing from Mr. Worth.

BillW
09-03-2004, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by RonTiller


PS: If anybody has some time, can you post the complete text of Dave Schwartz's pars on the message board.

Ron,

You know the ole saying "Careful what you ask for ..." :eek: :D

Bill

RonTiller
09-03-2004, 06:18 PM
Jeep,

Wow, I thought we were the only ones with copies of these old "Uncle" Jack Carson Fidelity Systems books. I dug around among the boxes of systems we have in the back and found the Nov-Dec 1968 issue, with the Combination Method by Ira Johnson.

You are certainly right in pointing out the similarities in the basic ideas behind Tips and the Combination Method. For those in the dark, they involve identifying certain factors involving the trainer, horse and jockey. These are added up for a tip count in Tips. Ira Johnson has major and minor power factors, which are added up for a "rating".

I am certainly no expert in Tips, the genesis and development of Tips, or the history of handicapping in America. We do have 4 boxes of systems and methods in the back room at HDW, many dating from the 1950s, including the Gambler's Book Store's original Systems and Methods, with Huey Mahl's wonderfully acerbic reviews (0 to 4 horseshoe ratings). By the way, it is absolutely incredible how many people promise 80% winners with no handicapping. It's also incredible how many have medievally complex rules that are obviously ad hoc and backfitted to the small sample presented as the "workout".

Without getting into a who invented calculus, Leibniz or Newton, or who first came up with the idea of the evolution of species by natural selection, Darwin or Wallace, I guess I can make a few observations.

First, as our boxes of systems testify, from the 1950s on, virtually all these factors were utilized by others in some combination or another. Even Ira Johnson mentions that he picked up some of his ideas from others.

Second, without knowing any of the history of Tom Worth's long stint as a turf writer and system developer, I suspect Jon Worth is the only person now alive that could illuminate the genesis of the Tips methodology.

Third, even if it turned out that Tom Worth got the idea of adding up various trainer and jockey factors for a point score from Ira Johnson's method, it is fair to say that Tom Worth and his customers certainly took that concept and ran. This much is obvious from reading the highly disorganized Tips manual published by Tom Worth and probably still available from his son. The 2002 Tips Update, published by Jon Worth, contains over 80 tips, along with various clusters of tips that are deemed especially significant and several methods of using the tips.

Well, so what? I don't have a good answer to that. Sigh...

BillW: Regarding "Careful what you ask for ..." Ok, I'll bite, I hereby ask for a million dollars and a sensitive, intelligent woman who likes to take long walks on the beach at sunset (which of course ensures that I'll have evenings all to myself, while she's on the beach!).

Ron Tiller
HDW

Tom
09-03-2004, 09:19 PM
Does John Worth have a website? I think he used to, but I lost the URL.

NoDayJob
09-03-2004, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by HIGH ROLLER
hi, can anyone with the paper and pencil method tell me a few of the key rules?

:D :D :D

1) There's no free lunch in this business!

2) There's not free lunch in this business!

And yes, finally:

3) There's no free lunch in this business!

:D :D :D

NDJ

Secretariat
09-03-2004, 11:00 PM
And people ask why vendors add restocking fees?

To cover guys who pirate like this guy....Jeez....

BillW
09-03-2004, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by RonTiller


BillW: Regarding "Careful what you ask for ..." Ok, I'll bite, I hereby ask for a million dollars and a sensitive, intelligent woman who likes to take long walks on the beach at sunset (which of course ensures that I'll have evenings all to myself, while she's on the beach!).

Ron Tiller
HDW

Unfortunately it doesn't always work, I tried the other night on a juicy trifecta and it fell flat on its face :D

betchatoo
09-03-2004, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by Tom
Does John Worth have a website? I think he used to, but I lost the URL.
No website, but his Email is tipsreport@aol.com

Tom
09-04-2004, 10:29 AM
Thanks, bet....

wes
09-04-2004, 11:02 AM
Tom

was he the one who sold POP's & TIPS?

wes

betchatoo
09-04-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by wes
Tom

was he the one who sold POP's & TIPS?

wes

Tom Worth, Jon's father originated POPS (no longer used) and TIPS.

Jon has carried it on.

RonTiller
09-05-2004, 10:13 AM
Actually, Earl Sigaloff was the originator of the POP (Profitable Odds Patterns) system. I found his original system, typewritten out, in a box of systems.

I don't know the genesis and history of the material but I have a POPS and TIPS manual copyrighted in 1993 by Worth Publishing Co., which contains a hodge podge of material from (according to the book) Tom, Jon and users. The first chapter, by Tom Worth, acknowledges that POPS was developed and copyrighted by Earl Sigaloff and that it is used in the POPS and TIPS manual with his permission. I guess over the years, the POPS portion has taken the back stage (or left the stage) to the TIPS portion.

Ron Tiller
HDW

Jeep
09-05-2004, 11:52 AM
When I first started messing around with the Pops & Tips, I actually like the Pops best.

timtam
09-05-2004, 02:58 PM
The POPS part was very easy to use and with a quick glance you could see them stand out. Once in a while while I'm at the OTB with some time in between races I'll go back and look for POPS horses. I remember when I bought the system they included a sheet of paper with rules all other the sheet and then highlighted with circles and boxes over the rules. It looked like when they found another POPS pattern like LIGHTENING IN A BOTTLE they would jot it down anywhere on the paper and then put a border around it. Like it was a system in progress and couldn't wait to be sold . Those were the days.

midnight
09-15-2004, 01:48 AM
High Roller, I'm with you. To heck with these people who don't appreciate the fact that we can share our ideas with each other. Why, it's un American for anybody to question this or denounce us for doing it! I just spent the $40 on the paper and pencil method, and of course I'll be glad to give it to you for free. Here it is and darned the consequences. Free exchange of ideas at all costs!


North American tracks only (Mexico doesn't count, sorry). Play only races over the dirt, or turf. Off tracks are okay, except those labelled as "gooey". No dirt races over 3 miles in length and no turf races shorter than 4 furlongs. You can play steeplechase races if they're at least 5 furlongs in length (I disagree with this: I believe that it should be at least 7 furlongs, but it's not my system, so go by what the author says). No races with fewer than 2 or more than 25 entrants.

Here are the four key qualifying rules for the horse:

1) The horse has to have finished its last race no worse than 14th and beaten no more than 50 lengths, unless it's a first starter, in which case it doesn't have any last race and will thus qualify under this rule. If the horse didn't finish its last race, or finished worse than 14th or beaten more than 50 lengths, it qualifies if it was declared a starter.
2) The trainer has to have at least one start this year, including today's race.
3) The jockey's last name can't be "Podogopolous".
4) The horse cannot be scratched from today's race.

If you have more than one horse that qualify under those rules (which is likely) then assign points to them as follows:

1) A grey, roan, chestnut, brown, bay, or black horse gets 1 point. If the horse is listed as a combination of two colors, give it one-half point for each color.
2) A horse that won its last race gets 2 points.
3) A horse that didn't win its last race gets 2 points.
(Note: if a horse dead-heated for win give it 1 point for winning and 1 point for not winning).
4) A first starter gets 2 points.
5) A horse who was on the lead at the second call of the last race gets 3 points for having good early speed.
6) A horse that wasn't on the lead at the second call of the last race gets 3 points for being rateable.

In case you have a tie after applying all these rules (which will happen once in a while):

Take four eggs, smash them inside a paper bag, go outside, hold the bag over your head, and moo like a cow for five minutes.

What's that? You won't do that?

That's odd. I thought somebody like you would do anything.

Enjoy.

HIGH ROLLER
09-15-2004, 08:44 AM
it musta you a half hour to post this. which begs the question....WHY? to Pontificate? you and everybody else that getting stuff thru FREE thru trading is immoral, unethical and we shouldn't be doing this? how come, when .99% of these guys do the SAME thing? hippocrites is what i call them.

cj
09-15-2004, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by HIGH ROLLER
.99% of these guys do the SAME thing? hippocrites is what i call them.

I think the number is a bit higher than this, that is less than 1%!

midnight
09-15-2004, 06:06 PM
HIGHROLLER: Your attitude is typical of today's mindset of people: Everybody else is stealing, so it's okay for you to, as well. It doesn't work that way. People like you who think that it's cool to get something for nothing are one of the reasons that software and electronically based products and services are a bit more expensive than they would be if more people were honest and PAID for them.

I do trade and/or sell software that I've bought, but in doing so, I send the original disks or CD that I purchased, and I don't keep a copy for myself. I won't sell it in the first place unless I don't have any use for it. It's understood in advance by whoever I trade with that I'm expecting an original product in return and not a copy.

zieglerjw
09-18-2004, 04:32 AM
OH GOD!!!. How moral and righteous we have become !!! Don't even think about the less intelligent (knowledgeable) neophytes ... thanks!!!

cato
09-18-2004, 12:22 PM
High Roller and zieglerjw:

If you don't like the anti-piracy laws here, try China. They have no problem with it. Although they do seem to execute a lot of folks, so be careful.

Midnight has stated the correct and legal way to trade programs.

Its the law; and, unlike many of the laws on the books it seems reasonable and fair, and is not hard to understand.

Although hypocrisy and pontificating are in no short supply (especially during election season) I haven't seen any of that in this thread except from you guys.

Cheers, Cato

sq764
09-18-2004, 01:13 PM
Not taking either side here...

Just curious.. Why don't most software developers implement some sort of protection in their programs? I always wondered that..

In the era of most people having cd burners at their disposal, wouldn't protection be an almost must to prevent trading, exchanging, etc??

cj
09-18-2004, 03:46 PM
With all of Microsoft's billions, they can't keep their software from getting cracked. What makes you think some racing software developer could do this?

sq764
09-18-2004, 03:48 PM
CJ, being cracked/decoded/deciphered is one thing... Popping the software into your drive and making 5 copies in 5 minutes is another...

There's no excuse for not protecting your software.. And if you don't you risk piracy and sharing.. plain and simple..

cj
09-18-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by sq764
CJ, being cracked/decoded/deciphered is one thing... Popping the software into your drive and making 5 copies in 5 minutes is another...

There's no excuse for not protecting your software.. And if you don't you risk piracy and sharing.. plain and simple..

My point is, security costs time and money. Your basic handicapping software designer doesn't have the big budget to do the job right. To truly protect software is damn near impossible. So, you price in the fact that you know people will steal it.

Why do online PPs at DRF cost as much as the print version when there is little production cost? Surely DRF knows a percentage of people will download the cards and mail them to all their buddies. Someone has to pay.

Honest people will do the right thing, crooks won't. You are making an excuse for theft. Do you blame an old lady who was mugged because she didn't carry an AK-47? It didn't hold up when it came to stealing music, it shouldn't hold up here.

sq764
09-18-2004, 04:19 PM
I am not making an excuse for anyone.. I am saying that if you (the software developer) is going to get offended if their software is shared, then take the steps to prevent it. If not, then that's the risk you take..