Controversial Thread Alert! Super Trainers. Good for the game? Bad for the game?

[Andy Asaro]

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/how-super-trainers-have-come-to-dominate-the-sport/#.WypBCFPFq7Q.twitter

Excerpt:

He (Chad Brown) apologizes for nothing.

“I am doing a service to the industry by taking certain clients that I have had and doubling and tripling or even quadrupling the amount of horses they own since they first hired me,” he said. “That’s because they have had success with us. These are people who, if they were in another barn and weren’t doing as well, might not be in the game any longer. Be careful throwing too many arrows at the larger, successful stables that are cultivating owners, increasing the amount of dollars spent and the overall commerce in the sport. That trickles down to the breeders, the racetrack owners and others.”

To be a super trainer, you must be like Brown, focused solely on your career and willing to forego any sort of normal life.

“There’s a price for this,” said Mark Casse, who trains about 125 horses. “We don’t have days off. Not even Christmas. It’s an all-day deal, an all-night deal. Myself, I thrive on that. I get bored easily.”

“I work really hard at this,” Baffert said. “I don’t take vacations and I don’t go anywhere. It’s a lot of hard work and effort and that’s why I’m rewarded with a lot of good horses.”

For the whole article click the link.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/how-super-trainers-have-come-to-dominate-the-sport/#.WypBCFPFq7Q.twitter

[Andy Asaro]

I'm on the record saying that IMO Baffert is the Lance Armstrong of Horse Racing. I base that on the sudden deaths where 7 horses died of heart related issues and were all being given Thyr-L for no apparent reason. Then you add the other worldly success in the worlds biggest races. If the starting offensive line for the super bowl champs all died of the same thing in an 18 month period I'm pretty sure the FBI would investigate.

That's my belief. What's yours?

[PaceAdvantage]

"A racetrack veterinarian contacted by the Paulick Report said the practice of routinely administering Thyro-L was not unusual."

Nor was it, I might add, illegal.

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/report-on-baffert-deaths-no-wrongdoing-but-theres-something-wrong-here/

[cj]

"A racetrack veterinarian contacted by the Paulick Report said the practice of routinely administering Thyro-L was not unusual."

Nor was it, I might add, illegal.

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/report-on-baffert-deaths-no-wrongdoing-but-theres-something-wrong-here/

It isn't illegal but it should be. Giving any drugs looking for a performance edge and not treating a condition is a sad reality of the sport.

[Fager Fan]

"A racetrack veterinarian contacted by the Paulick Report said the practice of routinely administering Thyro-L was not unusual."

Nor was it, I might add, illegal.

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/report-on-baffert-deaths-no-wrongdoing-but-theres-something-wrong-here/

That's BS. It's highly unusual. He should've done more research. Everyone in the industry knows what was going on here, and which outfits suddenly started giving their horses Thyro-L and why.

[Fager Fan]

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/how-super-trainers-have-come-to-dominate-the-sport/#.WypBCFPFq7Q.twitter

Excerpt:

He (Chad Brown) apologizes for nothing.

“I am doing a service to the industry by taking certain clients that I have had and doubling and tripling or even quadrupling the amount of horses they own since they first hired me,” he said. “That’s because they have had success with us. These are people who, if they were in another barn and weren’t doing as well, might not be in the game any longer. Be careful throwing too many arrows at the larger, successful stables that are cultivating owners, increasing the amount of dollars spent and the overall commerce in the sport. That trickles down to the breeders, the racetrack owners and others.”

To be a super trainer, you must be like Brown, focused solely on your career and willing to forego any sort of normal life.

“There’s a price for this,” said Mark Casse, who trains about 125 horses. “We don’t have days off. Not even Christmas. It’s an all-day deal, an all-night deal. Myself, I thrive on that. I get bored easily.”

“I work really hard at this,” Baffert said. “I don’t take vacations and I don’t go anywhere. It’s a lot of hard work and effort and that’s why I’m rewarded with a lot of good horses.”

For the whole article click the link.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/how-super-trainers-have-come-to-dominate-the-sport/#.WypBCFPFq7Q.twitter

Poor babies. Only these guys work hard. None of the other trainers work nearly as hard as they do. <huge eyeroll>

[Andy Asaro]

"A racetrack veterinarian contacted by the Paulick Report said the practice of routinely administering Thyro-L was not unusual."

Nor was it, I might add, illegal.

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/report-on-baffert-deaths-no-wrongdoing-but-theres-something-wrong-here/

Do you buy the explanation for the sudden deaths? Remember during the investigation the CHRB Commissioner and B.B.'s friend sat in his box on a regular basis. No other Trainer anywhere would have been allowed to train during that investigation. It was swept under the rug and covered up IMO because B.B. was too big to fail.

[Andy Asaro]

Poor babies. Only these guys work hard. None of the other trainers work nearly as hard as they do. <huge eyeroll>

I got the same feeling as you. They make me puke.

[Fager Fan]

I got the same feeling as you. They make me puke.

It's a tough life. They work 24/7/365 for the most part. But to talk as if it's only the "super trainers" who work that schedule is insulting to every non-super-trainer out there. Yes, maybe that one guy with 15 horses doesn't have as long of hours, but he's a very small, almost "part-time" trainer. The normal trainers ALL work those long hours. If anything, it may even be easier for the "super trainers" because they can and do afford to hire great assistants who do a lot of the work.

[PaceAdvantage]

That's BS. It's highly unusual. He should've done more research. Everyone in the industry knows what was going on here, and which outfits suddenly started giving their horses Thyro-L and why.If it's highly unusual, why did the vet that Paulick Report reached out to say it wasn't unusual?

Who should I believe? A vet reported by Ray Paulick or "Fager Fan"?

[PaceAdvantage]

It isn't illegal but it should be. Giving any drugs looking for a performance edge and not treating a condition is a sad reality of the sport.Agree completely. Just wanted to point out some facts to those who might be unaware.

[PaceAdvantage]

Do you buy the explanation for the sudden deaths? Remember during the investigation the CHRB Commissioner and B.B.'s friend sat in his box on a regular basis. No other Trainer anywhere would have been allowed to train during that investigation. It was swept under the rug and covered up IMO because B.B. was too big to fail.The explanation is BB ****ed up.

So he stopped using the drug, since, I guess, they came to the conclusion that was the cause?

But if it isn't unusual to use it, as the article states, then a lot more horses should be dropping dead...and they aren't.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's a tough life. They work 24/7/365 for the most part. But to talk as if it's only the "super trainers" who work that schedule is insulting to every non-super-trainer out there. Yes, maybe that one guy with 15 horses doesn't have as long of hours, but he's a very small, almost "part-time" trainer. The normal trainers ALL work those long hours. If anything, it may even be easier for the "super trainers" because they can and do afford to hire great assistants who do a lot of the work.Who cares how long anyone works?

The only thing that matters is winning.

You don't win, you starve.

By any means possible is their mantra.

[MadTiger]

"He said 'trickle-down'. Good enough for me!"--ghost of Ronald Reagan

[Denny]

"Throwing arrows..." :rolleyes:

I think the drug usage by the super trainers is rampant and since they've become too-big-to-fail it will only get worse.

Smaller outfits have little chance to compete with these guys.

Something ought to be done, but, who's going to do it?

[jay68802]

He (Chad Brown) apologizes for nothing.

“I am doing a service to the industry by taking certain clients that I have had and doubling and tripling or even quadrupling the amount of horses they own since they first hired me,” he said. “That’s because they have had success with us. These are people who, if they were in another barn and weren’t doing as well, might not be in the game any longer. Be careful throwing too many arrows at the larger, successful stables that are cultivating owners, increasing the amount of dollars spent and the overall commerce in the sport. That trickles down to the breeders, the racetrack owners and others.”


“I work really hard at this,” Baffert said. “I don’t take vacations and I don’t go anywhere. It’s a lot of hard work and effort and that’s why I’m rewarded with a lot of good horses.”

They work long hard hours, good, so do a lot of the people that post here. This will not earn any extra credit from me.

When you are on top of the game, the "arrows" are going to be thrown. Deal with it. The best way would be to prove what you are doing is on the up and up. Do not give the arrow throwers ammunition by not addressing issues that arise. If it is a drug issue, put out in the public all the treatments that are administered to that horse. The non-transparency is just more ammunition.

And the one thing that is not mentioned, is that do the super-trainers really benifit the people who drive the industry, your customers?

[thaskalos]

Of course the "super trainers" are good for the game. They bring well-heeled owners into the game...which gives the game the "touch-of-class" that it sorely needs. After all...isn't this the "sport of kings"? And if the horseplayers don't like it...they could go play the slots.

[jay68802]

2025 Kentucky Derby Presented by (FOR SALE)


1 Clenbutrol Dependant Trainer: Todd Pletcher Owner: Repole Stable

1A Theraputic Med Trainer: Todd Pletcher Owner: Repole Stable

1B Shock Wave Trainer: Todd Pletcher Owner: Repole Stable

1C Rabbit Trainer: Todd Pletcher Owner: Repole Stable

2 Clenbutrol Dependant Trainer: Chad Brown Owner: Dumb Money Racing

2A Theraputic Med Trainer: Chad Brown Owner: Dumb Money Racing

2B Shock Wave Trainer: Chad Brown Owner: Dumb Money Racing

2C Rabbit Trainer: Chad Brown Owner: Dumb Money Racing

3 Clenbutrol Dependant Trainer: Bob Baffert Owner: Winstar Farms

3A Theraputic Med Trainer: Bob Baffert Owner: Winstar Farms

3B Shock Wave Trainer: Bob Baffert Owner: Winstar Farms

3C Rabbit Trainer: Bob Baffert Owner: Winstar Farms

4 Clenbutrol Dependant Trainer: Steve Assmussen Owner: Coolmore Farm

4A Theraputic Med Trainer: Steve Assmussen Owner: Coolmore Farm

4B Shock Wave Trainer: Steve Assmussen Owner: Coolmore Farm

4C Rabbit Trainer: Steve Assmussen Owner: Coolmore Farm

5 Lucky Runner Trainer: Lucky Trainer Owner: Lucky Stable

6 Easy Trip Trainer: Brad Cox Owner: A Bunch of People

7 Inflated Figure Trainer: Karl Broberg Owner: Karl Broberg

8 Pipe Dream Trainer: Robertino Doridorro Owner: Fred

[Fager Fan]

If it's highly unusual, why did the vet that Paulick Report reached out to say it wasn't unusual?

Who should I believe? A vet reported by Ray Paulick or "Fager Fan"?

Both are anonymous, aren't they?

And probably because he was one of the vets giving it so was defending the practice. Not that difficult to figure.

[Andy Asaro]

The explanation is BB ****ed up.

So he stopped using the drug, since, I guess, they came to the conclusion that was the cause?

But if it isn't unusual to use it, as the article states, then a lot more horses should be dropping dead...and they aren't.

No Thyro-L didn't cause the sudden deaths. They claimed rat poison (warfarin?) was the cause.

[Jeff P]

I voted bad for the game.

Health of the game (field size/ability to card compelling races from a betting perspective) belongs in the conversation.

Hypothetical race: A peek at the condition book shows a first level turf allowance on Friday.

In today's game a guy like Brown might have 11 horses on the backside fitting that condition and another top guy might have 8.

Both trainers want to maintain their win pct so each enters only 1.

And the race goes to post with a field of 6.

Contrast that to the game as it existed back in say 2003.

If the same race were carded back then:

A guy like Brown might only have 4 fitting that condition and the other top guy might only have 3.

This is because the horses on the backside were more evenly distributed amongst the trainers.

Back then the same race likely goes to post with a field of 8.



-jp

.

[Denny]

Jeff P,

:ThmbUp:

Between what you point out and Jay's post, we'll be lucky to have races at all in a few years.

Except those staged for owners and breeders only.

[Fager Fan]

No Thyro-L didn't cause the sudden deaths. They claimed rat poison (warfarin?) was the cause.

You mean this one? Where they speculated it was because they used rat poison at GG, Del Mar, and Santa Anita?

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/chrb-rat-poison-findings-revealed-shared-archive/

The only problem with that speculation of course is that the horses were all at Hollywood Park.

The "investigation" of Baffert was nothing more than a dog and pony show.

[Tom]

Of course the "super trainers" are good for the game. They bring well-heeled owners into the game...which gives the game the "touch-of-class" that it sorely needs. After all...isn't this the "sport of kings"? And if the horseplayers don't like it...they could go play the slots.

The biggest turds at the tracks are not in the barn, they ar in the Clubhouse.
The game needs to be regulated by the Feds, because of the various states involved.
Kind of like the ISO Standards - with third party certifications and audits.
It is a TOTAL JOKE to think any race track can police itself.
SUPER trainers are nothing more than equine mafia.

[Spalding No!]

You mean this one? Where they speculated it was because they used rat poison at GG, Del Mar, and Santa Anita?

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/chrb-rat-poison-findings-revealed-shared-archive/

The only problem with that speculation of course is that the horses were all at Hollywood Park.

The "investigation" of Baffert was nothing more than a dog and pony show.
Hollywood Park was closed by the time this article was written. The article focused on a several sudden death cases that occurred at different California racetracks beyond the Baffert cluster, so the relevant information about rodenticide use was from those tracks that were still operating.

In the Baffert investigation, one horse was found to have rodenticide in its system while 2 or 3 of the remaining 6 were noted to have bled internally. Testing for rodenticides as part of a necropsy was not routine at the time, but because of the unusual finding in the Baffert investigation, it was implemented as part of the testing protocols. The TDN article was a summary of the initial results investigating an association between rodenticides and internal bleeding.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1009584883973480448

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/railbird/status/1009570607552397313

[Denny]

https://twitter.com/railbird/status/1009570607552397313

Justify.
Horse goes from being unable to get to the races at 2, to being a Triple Crown winner.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Trainers is one aspect that Hong Kong do right. In Hong Kong each trainer is limited to 60 runners in their stable at a time. A limit on runners per trainer is an easy rule to implement and enforce as well. All racing jurisdictions should have a limit on runners per trainer

Super trainers is a problem around the racing world right now. Aidan O'Brien is too dominant in Ireland. In Australia Chris Waller and Darren Weir have too many horses and win too many races

[PaceAdvantage]

Justify.
Horse goes from being unable to get to the races at 2, to being a Triple Crown winner.Secretariat was juiced to the gills. You probably think he's one of the best ever.

Look at that sucker's neck. Built like an NFL linebacker juicing like there is no tomorrow.

Look up the history of steroids and tell me the 1970s weren't the golden age of steroid usage in horse racing. Three triple crowns that decade...hmmmm...what a coincidence.

And Riva Ridge didn't do too shabby either...maybe he was their test case and they perfected the ratio with Secretariat.

[ctownraces@bp]

The biggest turds at the tracks are not in the barn, they ar in the Clubhouse.
The game needs to be regulated by the Feds, because of the various states involved.
Kind of like the ISO Standards - with third party certifications and audits.
It is a TOTAL JOKE to think any race track can police itself.
SUPER trainers are nothing more than equine mafia.



Spot On Tom

[thaskalos]

The biggest turds at the tracks are not in the barn, they ar in the Clubhouse.
The game needs to be regulated by the Feds, because of the various states involved.
Kind of like the ISO Standards - with third party certifications and audits.
It is a TOTAL JOKE to think any race track can police itself.
SUPER trainers are nothing more than equine mafia.

:ThmbUp:

Tom...I am with you 110%

[Tom]

Perhaps it is time to start some grass-roots movement.
I'm sure we could find people in the press who would love the story.....

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1009805635087622144

Excerpt:

“There’s no question that super trainers are a problem,” said Tim Ritvo, the COO of the Stronach Group. “In California, 20% of the guys are winning 80% of the money. These are guys who are successful and have worked hard all their lives, so you don’t want to penalize them. America is all about free enterprise. But there needs to be more of a balance and if there’s not, we’re not going to have anyone left to run against these big guys.”

Excerpt:

“We have to try to help these guys,” said Ritvo, a former trainer. “When you talk about day in and day out racing like we have at Gulfstream with 250-some dates, the cheaper races are actually the ones we make the most money on. The economic engine of this game is the guy who bets and they don’t want a five-horse field with a 1-9 shot. The smaller trainer is the backbone of the game and the reason we can have elongated meets. To do so, you need guys like me who came up through the food chain winning average races. The sport simply cannot afford to have these people go out of business.”

[Robert Fischer]

doesn't matter what i think

i'm not important enough in the grand scheme of things for my opinion to matter. Instead, it's my understanding of the system and my adaptability that I should be worried about.

Power concentrates. Should we be focused on artificially equalizing trainers? I do not know enough to have a valid opinion about that, but I do know that I'm not important enough to concern myself about it. I'll try my best to see and understand how it works and to adapt.

[Denny]

Maybe PA.
I was the one that brought up the steroids with Big Red in the first place.
(Anybody think Lucien Lauren was a great trainer before or after? They had to use Turcotte because he was the only one strong enough.)

Baffert and his breeder/owners have now perfected it.

Who's next?

[Denny]

PA,
To answer your question.
I thought he ran the greatest races ever, but, was far from the greatest horse ever.
The horse not only looked like a sprinter, he was bred that way.
Why do you think Phipps took the other horse with the coin flip?
Meadow Stable got hold of the juice to save the farm, is my opinion.
The old man had lost control of it when he got seriously ill.
I don't think he had anything to do with it - the drugging.

[Andy Asaro]

CHRB's Rick Arthur makes a good case for undetectable performance enhancing drugs in training that although out of system still enhance performance on race day. Also first time I've ever heard anyone speak of drugs that impede performance (I guess if you want to stiff a horse).

Been a big critic of Rick Arthur over the years but believe he's spot on in this case.

[papillon]

Secretariat was juiced to the gills. You probably think he's one of the best ever.

Look at that sucker's neck. Built like an NFL linebacker juicing like there is no tomorrow.

Look up the history of steroids and tell me the 1970s weren't the golden age of steroid usage in horse racing. Three triple crowns that decade...hmmmm...what a coincidence.

And Riva Ridge didn't do too shabby either...maybe he was their test case and they perfected the ratio with Secretariat.

He may very well have been on steroids, but your understanding of how they work defeats your argument.

Steriods are primarily for recovery. They help speed up healing the inherent damage of physical exertion. Back in the 70s people didn't understand this. People didn't really understand this until the late 1990s to be honest.

They don't really make atheletes faster, they make them tougher and more aggressive/competitive. In regards to their increasing muscle mass, this is only a benefit in sports in which endurance is not an issue, because muscles are expensive energy-wise and they increase the weight to power ratio. As weight increases, power decreases. This is why just about any motorcycle can beat any car. This is one part of the diuretic/Lasix trinty, you literally drain weight to increase power. The other two parts are masking other drugs and buffering lactic acid.

In sprinters, the increase in muscle mass/strength increases strike force of foot/hoof to ground, which increases propulsion, but at a steep energy price. And it makes them aggressive, which you need when charging out of the gate/blocks. In humans the increasing muscle mass disadvantage is clearly seen in runners. Sprinters have legs like Popeye's arms, milers are much leaner, marathoners are skeletal. You see this less in swimming because of the power needed to dislocate water, but you still see it.

Being doped to the gills with steriods would have negatively impacted Secretariat's Belmont. However, moderate use would have kept his appetite healthy, his weight on, his energy up, his coat shiny, and his aggression stoked, which is seen in bucking, biting, fighting exercise riders etc. Horses that don't show the physical effects of 3 races in 5 weeks are on steroids. Period.

EPO did not exist in the 1970s or even the 1980s. It entered human sports in the 1990s, and likely did not take hold in horseracing until the 2000s. Say what you want about Secretariat, Slew, and Affirmed, but they weren't running on EPO and it is the most beneificial dope a doper can dope with because it increases your VO2 Max. They were running on their own inherent athletic capacity. You cannot say this of EPO-era horses, like AP and Justify. The odds these two horses are EPO free are greater than the odds of the 2nd Coming, coming at 6:47 this evening, just in time for hotdogs on the Solstice.

I loved Holy Bull too. He was almost certainly running on steriods.

You can replace Secretariat's name with Justify's in your comment and have an equally true discription of the horse. You can also hhmmmm about 2 TCs in 3 years, by the same trainer, and run almost identically. At least in the 70s, there were 3 very different horses, owned by wholly unconnected people, who ran completely different races.

The article in this thread about the peptide doping vortex out of Arizona should make us all pause. It is too bad the FBI has not released the whole list of clients. It has released the atheltes and human trainers it knows, but there are dozens of names it does not recognize. How many of those would we recognize I wonder.

[Robert Fischer]

the internet, where people speak vague understandings as if they are facts...

[papillon]

the internet, where people speak vague understandings as if they are facts...


If you mean me, I was in cycling from 1988 until 2003. I could teach doctors about blood doping. It was my sport that taught everyone the lesson that you can't go above 50% with EPO or you will die. We learned that when 18 18-21 year old Belgians on the top team in the world at the time all dropped dead of heart attacks. Their autopsies showed they had sludge for blood. EPO increaes red blood cell, you only have so much room in your arteries.

I'll compare LeMond to Secretariat. LeMond may very well have been on steroids, but his natural V02 Max was 80%. Lance Armstrong's was under 40%. Armstrong couldn't even get a 4 minute mile when he was a triathelete punk in highschool or hold our wheels in the MS150 from Houston to Austin.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/BH_JBalan/status/1009889880514560000

[Andy Asaro]

If you mean me, I was in cycling from 1988 until 2003. I could teach doctors about blood doping. It was my sport that taught everyone the lesson that you can't go above 50% with EPO or you will die. We learned that when 18 18-21 year old Belgians on the top team in the world at the time all dropped dead of heart attacks. Their autopsies showed they had sludge for blood. EPO increaes red blood cell, you only have so much room in your arteries.

I'll compare LeMond to Secretariat. LeMond may very well have been on steroids, but his natural V02 Max was 80%. Lance Armstrong's was under 40%. Armstrong couldn't even get a 4 minute mile when he was a triathelete punk in highschool or hold our wheels in the MS150 from Houston to Austin.

Keep posting. We're all getting closer to the truth.

[cj]

CHRB's Rick Arthur makes a good case for undetectable performance enhancing drugs in training that although out of system still enhance performance on race day.

Masochistic.

[Andy Asaro]

Masochistic.

Yes, the steroid thing is one way but it was legal when he did it. It just didn't metabolize in time. Pretty sure the other guys are using substances far more advanced than the typical steroid treatment. Can't wait to hear more.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/BH_JBalan/status/1009894134084132864

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/BH_JBalan/status/1009896763530989568

[cj]

https://twitter.com/BH_JBalan/status/1009894134084132864

Why would horsemen not want this? I mean, if you are cheating you obviously don't, but otherwise why not?

[Andy Asaro]

Why would horsemen not want this? I mean, if you are cheating you obviously don't, but otherwise why not?

A lot of high profile TOC board members would be outed including B.B. IMO.

[Andy Asaro]

Horse racing must also deal with performance-hindering drugs that could be used to stop a horse from its best performance, which is not generally considered a problem in human sport.

Arthur continued to point out the need for out-of-competition testing because "races are won in training," where he said doping is most effective.

"Everyone also knows when we are going to test the horses—right after the race," he said. "That is pretty easy to plan around if you are bent on cheating. ... Here is the question for this board and the leaders in this sport—do you want a real anti-doping program or not? Bluntly, without an (out-of-competition) program with teeth, you won't have one."

Arthur questioned why the TOC and CTT would object to the out-of-competition testing, and multiple heated, sometimes personal, exchanges between him, Avioli, and Balch followed.


https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/228171/chrb-delays-out-of-competition-testing-proposal

[Denny]

:popcorn:

Out the cheats.

[PaceAdvantage]

:popcorn:

Out the cheats.Why? Don't a few of you in this thread already know who they all are? Don't tell me you're guessing...

[Denny]

Why? Don't a few of you in this thread already know who they all are? Don't tell me you're guessing...

Yes we do.
But, shouldn't everyone know?

Or are they too big to fail?
Crooked game will try to stop it from coming out?

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes we do.No...you actually don't.

There are a LOT more trainers out there cheating then you could possibly imagine. From buzzers to you name it...it's happening.

But you know what? It's been happening FOREVER.

And the game goes on.

Adapt or die.

[Immanuel Kant]

Limit stalls to a set number to increase the number of trainers at a meet. This will increase field size.

Otherwise.............. Saturday's 4th at BEL is presented for your viewing/wagering pleasure.

Anyone know how many stalls Chad Brown and Todd Pletcher have at SAR for the upcoming meet?

[Andy Asaro]

email blast this morning.

I think he (Rick Arthur) has a responsibility to go into more detail after his explosive allegations.

Everyone is thinking it but not directly saying it so I will. Does Rick Arthur believe Bob Baffert is doping in training?

[Fager Fan]

No...you actually don't.

There are a LOT more trainers out there cheating then you could possibly imagine. From buzzers to you name it...it's happening.

But you know what? It's been happening FOREVER.

And the game goes on.

Adapt or die.

I don’t understand your post. Are you defending the cheating?

[Denny]

I don’t understand your post. Are you defending the cheating?

The true PA comes out FF in his previous response.

He knows the game smells from corruption, yet he's usually on his soapbox defending it.

:rolleyes:

[AndyC]

I don’t understand your post. Are you defending the cheating?

He isn't defending anything, just making a statement about the realities in racing.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/raypaulick/status/1010299998989357056

[VigorsTheGrey]

Can a racing outfit use steroids and other growth and performance drugs, etc, while the horse is being raised and all through the 2 yr season without making a racecard start...then quit right before joining onto the racing season as a 3 yr old...I'm thinking maybe Superdoped horses are being raised up from the get go to give them a head start physically...?

[Denny]

Can a racing outfit use steroids and other growth and performance drugs, etc, while the horse is being raised and all through the 2 yr season without making a racecard start...then quit right before joining onto the racing season as a 3 yr old...I'm thinking maybe Superdoped horses are being raised up from the get go to give them a head start physically...?

That's what I've been saying in several posts - on this thread or others I've made on the TC with Justify, Arrogate, and the supertrainers and owners.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Secretariat was juiced to the gills. You probably think he's one of the best ever.

Look at that sucker's neck. Built like an NFL linebacker juicing like there is no tomorrow.

Look up the history of steroids and tell me the 1970s weren't the golden age of steroid usage in horse racing. Three triple crowns that decade...hmmmm...what a coincidence.

And Riva Ridge didn't do too shabby either...maybe he was their test case and they perfected the ratio with Secretariat.

I wonder if, maybe if used, steroids made his heart oversized....sounds more plausible than the gene theory..http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/large-heart.html

[PaceAdvantage]

The true PA comes out FF in his previous response.

He knows the game smells from corruption, yet he's usually on his soapbox defending it.

:rolleyes:How about you just go **** yourself? How about that, asshole.

You don't know shit from shinola. It shows in almost everything you post.

That's why you can't bet t-breds anymore and now resort to playing harness.

Yet you post like you're the Stephen Hawking of racing.

I don't defend shit. I just point out idiots. That's my main game around here.

[PaceAdvantage]

I wonder if, maybe if used, steroids made his heart oversized....sounds more plausible than the gene theory..http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/large-heart.htmlNo, an enlarged heart is NOT a usual side effect from steroid use. I've researched this myself.

However, being a fine-tuned athlete will lead to a larger heart, but it's the "good kind" of enlargement...as any muscle will get larger when exercised constantly, and your heart is indeed a muscle...

[PaceAdvantage]

How about you just go **** yourself? How about that, asshole.

You don't know shit from shinola. It shows in almost everything you post.

That's why you can't bet t-breds anymore and now resort to playing harness.

Yet you post like you're the Stephen Hawking of racing.

I don't defend shit. I just point out idiots. That's my main game around here.Too harsh? :pound:

[PaceAdvantage]

I don’t understand your post. Are you defending the cheating?How could you POSSIBLY get from my post that I am DEFENDING cheating. Holy moly....what is wrong with some of you?

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1010548862233165825

[AskinHaskin]

Should we be focused on artificially equalizing trainers?


"We have to try to help these guys" - Tim Ritvo



Once again, most of you and the rest of the entire industry are missing the crucial concern here.


"Trainers" are not, and will never be chief among the concerns of horse racing or its well being. Everyone knows that ping-pong balls do not need trainers. The speculative game of race horse ownership is a separate entity from the core concerns relating to the future of horse racing. Race horses might as well be bitcoins where it concerns any connection between their worth and the wagering dollar.

The bottom line is that nearly every other form of gambling/gaming features significant parity among the gambling/gaming crowd, and horse racing does not. The guys Tim Ritvo needs to help are not the unrelated speculators on the backstretch, they are the people who have been right in front of his eyes for decades, toward whom Tim Ritvo has perhaps only lifted a single finger during his entire career.


Horse racing should be focused on "artificially equalizing" its own gambling crowd, so as to put itself on equal footing with all of the competition (for the gambling dollar) which has assembled nearby and since the 1970's.


It's as simple as now doing (at least) SOMEthing for your customers, for what would be the collective first times in the entire careers of many race track operators.

Stop giving customers Tim Ritvo's finger.

[Fager Fan]

How could you POSSIBLY get from my post that I am DEFENDING cheating. Holy moly....what is wrong with some of you?

Because you said cheating’s always happened, and “adapt.”

What’s adapt supposed to me except to accept it and adapt accordingly.

You have another meaning for saying to adapt?

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1010568052134383616

[papillon]

So I see this ad at Paulick for a substance called Race Recovery, being hawked by Baffert and Justify, the poster boy of miraculous recovery.

It's Gatorade for Horses basically, an electolyte supplement. It's got what horses crave!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFD2ggNxR1g

You don't need steriods for race recovery! You just need Horse Gatorade! The inside joke element to this...well played Bob, well played.

[AndyC]

Because you said cheating’s always happened, and “adapt.”

What’s adapt supposed to me except to accept it and adapt accordingly.

You have another meaning for saying to adapt?

How can you do anything other than accept and adapt? There are many ways to cheat outside of using PEDs. Accepting and adapting doesn't mean you are against efforts to minimize cheating.

Do you accept and adapt that there are still people who drive their cars over the speed limit even though the highway patrol spends countless hours trying to stop drivers from doing so?

[papillon]

I wonder if, maybe if used, steroids made his heart oversized....sounds more plausible than the gene theory..http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/large-heart.html


All elite atheletes have large hearts. Your heart grows with use like any muscle. Once you stop being an elite athelete your heart starts returning to normal. Like the rest of you.

I've always thought the large heart bs was just a red herring. He had one, ergo, it must be why he had such an incredible 5 weeks in the Spring of 73. A better example of circular logic you'll never find.

There are 3 bio-mechanical factors in speed--propulsive force, cadence, and oxygen in-take.

The article below is pretty cool, it examines Secretariat, Black Caviar, Frankel, and American Pharoah. Secretariat's stride was shorter than all of them. Two lengths shorter than Black Caviar and Frankel and one foot shorter than AP. His speed came from his cadence (what the author calls his turn over).

https://www.performancegenetics.com/single-post/2015/06/12/The-Stride-of-a-Champion-How-does-American-Pharoah-compare-to-Secretariat

Think of Winx, she has incredibly fast cadence, as do Quarter Horses. They are faster because they are actually moving faster, literally, their legs are moving faster. It sounds dumb, but that's all there is to it.

Amphetamines might increase cadence. If Secretariat's speed wasn't natural, perhaps they had him hopped up on speed, but he ran 10f in 1:59 twice in his TC, and was on pace to do so in the Preakness and amphetamines wreck havoc with consistency, so...maybe he really was just a very fast horse.

Anywho, I recommend the article. It also discusses strike-force.

Back when Lance turned from "couldn't get through the first week Lance," to super-Lance, there was a lot made of the fact that he had increased his cadence and improved his form, which he did do, and those were certainly necessary to maximize his other "adjustments."

[papillon]

Can a racing outfit use steroids and other growth and performance drugs, etc, while the horse is being raised and all through the 2 yr season without making a racecard start...then quit right before joining onto the racing season as a 3 yr old...I'm thinking maybe Superdoped horses are being raised up from the get go to give them a head start physically...?

I don't know very much about gene-doping, so I'm putting a caveat at the outset.

With traditional doping there are problems that arise with use overtime.

With testosterone and EPO, the longer you use, the less your own body makes, so that you become wholly dependant on supplimental sources over time. If a horse is raised on supplements, you'd risk having an animal that would cease to do much of anything if it were prevented from receiving continued supplements even for a short time. You'd go from having an athelete to a couch potato overnight.

I would think that the benefit of an unraced 2 yo starting from nowhere as a 3yo, would be that they would be less likely to come up for OOC testing for awhile, and then the testing will be pretty predictable, almost always right after the race.You have to be a moron to get caught if you know when the test is coming.

This would give somewhat of an edge because the early races will take less out of the horse, because the horses is hopped all the way up, whereas his crop mates have been running with less of a buffer, for longer, taking more of a toll.

FWIW the timing from the KY Derby to the Belmont is perfect for a classic EPO/testosterone regime to avoid testing, because you know exactly when you'll be tested and it almost splits perfectly into three very tidy 3 week regiments if your last race before the Derby was 3 weeks earlier: Supplement the day after your last prep test, by the KY Derby you'll pass the tests, but still have the benefit. Then re-up the day after the KY Derby post race test, and hold your breath that the Preakness is still the joke-test race, then top off again the day after the Preakness test for the Belmont. With the Preakness, you'd prob want to do a smaller amount, just to be safe.

[Fager Fan]

How can you do anything other than accept and adapt? There are many ways to cheat outside of using PEDs. Accepting and adapting doesn't mean you are against efforts to minimize cheating.

Do you accept and adapt that there are still people who drive their cars over the speed limit even though the highway patrol spends countless hours trying to stop drivers from doing so?

Bad analogy.

You work to stop the cheating. Period. It’s inane to say it can’t be done, it just takes the will to do it. This ain’t rocket science, nor do the cheaters know anything their non-cheating counterparts don’t.

[Denny]

PA,

I don't need the abuse from you.

**** off.

[Tom]

Buh-bye.

[PaceAdvantage]

Because you said cheating’s always happened, and “adapt.”

What’s adapt supposed to me except to accept it and adapt accordingly.

You have another meaning for saying to adapt?You and I have ABSOLUTELY NO POWER to enforce the laws of racing.

NONE.

So what the **** do you want ME to do about it, except learn some way to deal with it, until things change for the better(or)?

ADAPT or die. It's pretty ****ing simple.

And it certainly DOESN'T MEAN I DEFEND CHEATERS.

Should you and I go to the barns and run inspections ourselves? Perform some out of competition testing? What the hell do you want to do?

Complain on a message board? Lot of good that does.

So, yeah, ADAPT or quit. Lots of people seem to be quitting...that's fine. I choose not to.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA,

I don't need the abuse from you.

**** off.And I don't need you posting lies about me, so don't look for me to apologize. I couldn't care less whether you stay or go.

[VigorsTheGrey]

I don't know very much about gene-doping, so I'm putting a caveat at the outset.

With traditional doping there are problems that arise with use overtime.

With testosterone and EPO, the longer you use, the less your own body makes, so that you become wholly dependant on supplimental sources over time. If a horse is raised on supplements, you'd risk having an animal that would cease to do much of anything if it were prevented from receiving continued supplements even for a short time. You'd go from having an athelete to a couch potato overnight.

I would think that the benefit of an unraced 2 yo starting from nowhere as a 3yo, would be that they would be less likely to come up for OOC testing for awhile, and then the testing will be pretty predictable, almost always right after the race.You have to be a moron to get caught if you know when the test is coming.

This would give somewhat of an edge because the early races will take less out of the horse, because the horses is hopped all the way up, whereas his crop mates have been running with less of a buffer, for longer, taking more of a toll.

FWIW the timing from the KY Derby to the Belmont is perfect for a classic EPO/testosterone regime to avoid testing, because you know exactly when you'll be tested and it almost splits perfectly into three very tidy 3 week regiments if your last race before the Derby was 3 weeks earlier: Supplement the day after your last prep test, by the KY Derby you'll pass the tests, but still have the benefit. Then re-up the day after the KY Derby post race test, and hold your breath that the Preakness is still the joke-test race, then top off again the day after the Preakness test for the Belmont. With the Preakness, you'd prob want to do a smaller amount, just to be safe.

Thank you for your posts and replys to me...they are very intelligent and informative...very refreshing, considering some of the banter that goes on here (and that most of us are somewhat nonplused by)....it seems to me that there simply must be some regime improvements, diet wise, medication-wise, and novel conditioning stratagems in play now then back in BigRed's day...wasn't this the first TC winner in a very long time, if not ever, to go unraced as a 2 yr old...?

It just seems like a new ball game now...with the Super- breeders hooking up with the Super-owners, and the Super-trainer to put out the Super-horse(s) with the sole intent of an abbreviated stellar career, then off to the sire shop they go just as fast as they possibly can....there's little longevity to their (the horses) careers anymore....its all so calculated....and programmed by increasingly consolidating networks of profit sharing and co-mingling Super- interests...trending toward pseudo-monopoly...

[PaceAdvantage]

Thank you for your posts and replys to me...they are very intelligent and informative...How do you know? Did you verify all the info given?

Not saying what papillon posted was wrong, but just curious why you say the above. Or do you just take things posted here at face value if they are posted in a pleasant-enough manner?

[VigorsTheGrey]

:popcorn:How do you know? Did you verify all the info given?

Not saying what papillon posted was wrong, but just curious why you say the above. Or do you just take things posted here at face value if they are posted in a pleasant-enough manner?

No Mike, I did not verify the info Papillon has written here...but anyone who engages my posts in such a civil, educated, and enlightened manner of discourse as this person, this butterfly of a person has, indeed has my approval....THIS is the kind of dialogue I crave here...

[PaceAdvantage]

:popcorn:

No Mike, I did not verify the info Papillon has written here...but anyone who engages my posts in such a civil, educated, and enlightened manner of discourse as this person, this butterfly of a person has, indeed has my approval....THIS is the kind of dialogue I crave here...Even if it's total BS?

That's a weird way to live. Makes you kind of gullible, don't you think?

[VigorsTheGrey]

Even if it's total BS?

That's a weird way to live. Makes you kind of gullible, don't you think?

After looking through some of Papillon's threads and post, I see nothing but sincere participation and honest dialogue... But you are right, I can be gullible at times, at least as much or maybe more than average Joe, but I try to weigh things over and learn as much by a persons TONE that beacons through, regardless of the topic, in my opinion, Papillon's tone is solid....but granted, one can not always judge a book by its cover, nor should we keep judging them by their former once said statements or opinions.....none of us are really as monolithic mentally as we think we are...AND we change, discard former beliefs...learn, and as you say...adapt....I am not the same person I was 3 years ago, when I perhaps offended you and other with my religious diatribes...but you still hold that against me, as if my opinions then, are still my opinions now...you still ban my participation in off-topic, you have a fixed idea of who I am and always will be.....you don't see me as a person...you show a curious lack of evolving or adapting in some areas, just like the rest of us...you are human too you know, Mike...

[papillon]

Even if it's total BS?

That's a weird way to live. Makes you kind of gullible, don't you think?

This one's a very good, sport neutral primer on Testosterone:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3264812/#!po=27.4194

This one mentions how using it over time will inhibit your ability to produce it on your own:

https://dopinglinkki.fi/en/info-bank/doping-substances/anabolic-steroids-and-testosterone

This is on cycling, it explains EPO:

http://www.velonews.com/2014/02/training-center/an-analysis-of-the-long-term-effects-of-performance-enhancing-drugs_317590


This is another about how to dope as a cyclist just like Lance:

https://www.theverge.com/2013/1/17/3886424/programming-your-body-lance-armstrong-and-doping-technology

This is an article from the NY Times from 1991, it talks about the 1988 incident I mentioned:

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/us/stamina-building-drug-linked-to-athletes-deaths.html

I didn't go back through everything I said, this is just what I remember off the top of my head, if there is something specific that you feel was BS that isn't covered above, mention it.

[PaceAdvantage]

I didn't go back through everything I said, this is just what I remember off the top of my head, if there is something specific that you feel was BS that isn't covered above, mention it.I believe I posted more than once that *I* wasn't doubting anything you wrote.

I was just questioning why one would just publicly embrace something without verifying it for themselves as well.

Sort of a "internet life lesson."

It was nothing personal. Just using you as an example of everyone, including me, who posts here.

[lamboguy]

i am learning a lot from this thread
.for what it's worth I quit buying horses 5 years ago because i can no longer win a race annd can't sell my horses for decent money. without involvement i am bored with the game the way it is. i cut back the amount of time i spend betting these thongs as well

[Andy Asaro]

In the L.A. Times a few days ago they had this guys selections and analysis. I blasted it out to my email list because of the comments below. Last night he sent me a free sheet for today at Belmont.


‘SUPER FEED’ TRAINERS: These are guys who’ve mastered the labs, meaning, they know how to add to their feed buckets without a sign of negative drug results, masking, etc. There’s a reason why runners from these barns always seem to re-break at the top of the lane, “finding more” as west coast announcer Trevor Denman would say. Front runners from these barns are always so dangerous. By the way, ever wonder why the trainers atop the leaderboard right now are rarely seen on the big days with security cameras and a security guard outside the stall prior to the big day races? Funny how that works.

[jay68802]

A while back I looked at Delta Downs and it came down to when Karl Broberg claimed a horse, on a average the horse improved it's speed figure from its last race by 7.8 Beyer points. To be in this group, the horse also had to race within 28 days of the claim.

It made me think that if the food or supplement worked so well for him, why do other trainers not use this "great" food or supplement? It must just be to expensive for the average trainer to afford.:rolleyes:

[chiguy]

I know nothing about this topic. I do feel that whenever money is involved people are cheating or trying to cheat. I understand the fingers pointed at the super trainers. The one thing that has bugged me about this is why did Arrogate suddenly become a bum after looking like one of the greats? Why would BB, who some are saying has super juice, stop giving it to him if that what was happening?

[Andy Asaro]

I know nothing about this topic. I do feel that whenever money is involved people are cheating or trying to cheat. I understand the fingers pointed at the super trainers. The one thing that has bugged me about this is why did Arrogate suddenly become a bum after looking like one of the greats? Why would BB, who some are saying has super juice, stop giving it to him if that what was happening?

Eventually their bodies break down from whatever they're doing or they die.

[thespaah]

Frfom another perspective.
Super trainers are gutting the betting aspect of the game.
Points to ponder.
-Super trainers carry much clout.
-They can wield influence over Racing Secretaries. Races are written so that fields are smaller.
-Smaller fields mean more opportunities to cash checks.
-The ST's that are flush with wealthy owners that can afford high class stock run the show.
For example, Last Saturday there was a Stake Race at Belmont that drew 7, scratched down to 5( The two scratches were MTO) Chad Brown had three of the five remaining starters.
I have a problem with that.
Of course some of my points are pure speculation on my part. I'm using some deductive reasoning to arrive at my speculation.
Now, is there a solution?
Hmm. Don't know.
On the issue regarding PED's, that's been sufficiently discussed in this thread, so I digress.

[AltonKelsey]

In the L.A. Times a few days ago they had this guys selections and analysis. I blasted it out to my email list because of the comments below. Last night he sent me a free sheet for today at Belmont.


‘SUPER FEED’ TRAINERS: These are guys who’ve mastered the labs, meaning, they know how to add to their feed buckets without a sign of negative drug results, masking, etc. There’s a reason why runners from these barns always seem to re-break at the top of the lane, “finding more” as west coast announcer Trevor Denman would say. Front runners from these barns are always so dangerous. By the way, ever wonder why the trainers atop the leaderboard right now are rarely seen on the big days with security cameras and a security guard outside the stall prior to the big day races? Funny how that works.




All true, and old news.


What can we do about it? At one time you could ban someone or call them in and tell them to knock it off, even if you didn't have hard evidence.


Those days are long gone .

[Andy Asaro]

All true, and old news.


What can we do about it? At one time you could ban someone or call them in and tell them to knock it off, even if you didn't have hard evidence.


Those days are long gone .

May be old news to you and me but not to most. For a mainstream publication to routinely put this into their handicapping sheet is extraordinary. Most if not all others would never include this in their sheet.

[Denny]

Listening to the DRF shows on the upcoming weekend races and heard them say that the United Nations at Monmouth has a field of nine - and FOUR are trained by Chad Brown.

But, we don't have to worry. Trainers would never try anything funny.
____

Oh, I almost forgot about the Sword Dancer at Saratoga.

[clicknow]

Secretariat was juiced to the gills.

I'm sure. OTOH, few "juiced" horses would be able to pull off what he did.

It isn't illegal but it should be. Giving any drugs looking for a performance edge and not treating a condition is a sad reality of the sport.

Plus, we do not know the ultimate side effects. Aside from the actual mortality of the equine itself, what affect will newer PEDs have on a mare's ability to foal, or a stallion's ability to breed.



The game needs to be regulated by the Feds, because of the various states involved.
Kind of like the ISO Standards - with third party certifications and audits.
It is a TOTAL JOKE to think any race track can police itself.
SUPER trainers are nothing more than equine mafia.

Indeed.

Last sentence cracked me up :lol:

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1014491852366438403

[Andy Asaro]

Regarding Jason Servis. Tweet is about Firenze Fire in the sixth at Belmont.

https://twitter.com/TimeformUSfigs/status/1015781455815954434

[Tom]

Custer's Last Stand, OK Corral, and now the Stars and Stripes Masacre.

[jay68802]

And this is from the same trainer who, earlier this year, had a horse coming off a 8 month break, moved up 2 classes, showed 1 3f workout in those 8 months, and won for fun at 1 1/16 miles. He is a conditioning master.

[cj]

Regarding Jason Servis. Tweet is about Firenze Fire in the sixth at Belmont.

https://twitter.com/TimeformUSfigs/status/1015781455815954434

This race was everything that is wrong with racing in 2018. It is a shame. We should be able to celebrate a 3yo romping to victory over a solid field. Instead we are left to wonder about a trainer who seemingly can't lose while his horses show newfound speed and stamina and huge bets changing the odds at the last minute.

[Tom]

I'm not wondering about anything.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/tonycbadabing/status/1015980110615367680

[Andy Asaro]

This race was everything that is wrong with racing in 2018. It is a shame. We should be able to celebrate a 3yo romping to victory over a solid field. Instead we are left to wonder about a trainer who seemingly can't lose while his horses show newfound speed and stamina and huge bets changing the odds at the last minute.

Was my third choice so didn't use at all even though I thought there would be a meltdown. The gap in the works caused me to toss. It's interesting. Some of the "move'em up" guys have regular workouts all the time but then there are guys like Servis who regularly miss works but still run out of their minds.

[GMB@BP]

Was my third choice so didn't use at all even though I thought there would be a meltdown. The gap in the works caused me to toss. It's interesting. Some of the "move'em up" guys have regular workouts all the time but then there are guys like Servis who regularly miss works but still run out of their minds.

I bet him, he was my top contender. I thought Noble Indy was a fraud and Mendelssohn always overbet...but that was a joke, he would have beat Justify with the juice he had yesterday.

[cj]

Was my third choice so didn't use at all even though I thought there would be a meltdown. The gap in the works caused me to toss. It's interesting. Some of the "move'em up" guys have regular workouts all the time but then there are guys like Servis who regularly miss works but still run out of their minds.

I think most people assumed the horse was a contender, partly because of the trainer but also he seems to be a horse that is much better at one turn than two. But being a contender and what we saw yesterday are two completely different things.

Maybe this guy is just the greatest trainer to come down the pike in decades, I have no idea. I just think it is sad that we can't enjoy the performances of the horses without having to wonder about other things.

[GMB@BP]

I think most people assumed the horse was a contender, partly because of the trainer but also he seems to be a horse that is much better at one turn than two. But being a contender and what we saw yesterday are two completely different things.

Maybe this guy is just the greatest trainer to come down the pike in decades, I have no idea. I just think it is sad that we can't enjoy the performances of the horses without having to wonder about other things.

I cant bet Belmont today with his horses in them, I actually like them on their merits but I think after all the attention yesterday he may pull back on the needle, so not sure what to do. I will pass the card all together.

[Robert Fischer]

To me Firenze Fire looked like the kid who is big entering high school sports and never gets much bigger.

He also started to flatten-out on a consistent basis.

I wrote him off even as a contender. Yes... I know some people love the '1-turn' angle. I try to really be selective with that angle, because players are quick to use it to rationalize opinions.


There are possibilities that it was legit.

Maybe FF had injuries/issues that were hampering him for several races? Yesterday he was finally healthy?

And maybe the huge late odds drop was due to a lucky bet? Maybe their computer program falsely had FF as the top horse, and they were wrong, but happened to luck-into this horse that was finally healthy after being hampered for several races?

It's possible, but that sounds like bullshit. You have a barn where (before FF's Dwyer) horses are suddenly improving dramatically, and then the horse has bad enough form to be 5/1 or 6/1 or whatever... Maybe a fringe contender in the Dwyer if you go for the 1-turn angle thing... and suddenly he drops to 5/2 at the break and runs like he's the Top 3YO.

[GMB@BP]

To me Firenze Fire looked like the kid who is big entering high school sports and never gets much bigger.

He also started to flatten-out on a consistent basis.

I wrote him off even as a contender. Yes... I know some people love the '1-turn' angle. I try to really be selective with that angle, because players are quick to use it to rationalize opinions.


There are possibilities that it was legit.

Maybe FF had injuries/issues that were hampering him for several races? Yesterday he was finally healthy?

And maybe the huge late odds drop was due to a lucky bet? Maybe their computer program falsely had FF as the top horse, and they were wrong, but happened to luck-into this horse that was finally healthy after being hampered for several races?

It's possible, but that sounds like bullshit. You have a barn where (before FF's Dwyer) horses are suddenly improving dramatically, and then the horse has bad enough form to be 5/1 or 6/1 or whatever... Maybe a fringe contender in the Dwyer if you go for the 1-turn angle thing... and suddenly he drops to 5/2 at the break and runs like he's the Top 3YO.

That lucky bet would have been easy 5 figures....like you said did have form for that type of bet?

Here is another interesting stat, of the last 35 runners, and its like 20 wins, he has ZERO second place finishes, how is that even possible. I guess racing luck doesnt come into play for that barn. Stat was on Twitter, dont recall who said it.

[cj]

Servis isn't just killing Belmont. He is 17 for his last 30 outside of Belmont.

[Andy Asaro]

So what do we do with Fig Jelly in the 6th at Belmont. Goes to Servis from Wayne Rice who was at 0% when Fig Jelly was claimed from him. :lol:

[PhantomOnTour]

I'd like to bet this 8 coming up in R4 at Belmont....better have a saver under the 7 I guess ��

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/brooklyncowboy1/status/1016065376990515201

[Immortal6]

So what do we do with Fig Jelly in the 6th at Belmont. Goes to Servis from Wayne Rice who was at 0% when Fig Jelly was claimed from him. :lol:

After being rewarded big time singling Firenze Fire on top, I almost didn't want to believe Servis was juicing him but then I watched Fig Jelly yesterday and I'm convinced something fishy may be going on. On paper Fig Jelly looked like he didn't have much of a chance to win the race and he simply romped at 2-1.

[Andy Asaro]

After being rewarded big time singling Firenze Fire on top, I almost didn't want to believe Servis was juicing him but then I watched Fig Jelly yesterday and I'm convinced something fishy may be going on. On paper Fig Jelly looked like he didn't have much of a chance to win the race and he simply romped at 2-1.

That's the thing. As longtime handicappers we can use the Trainer stats to evaluate horses. But, those of us that want a fair contest (and that includes Trainers, Owners,Breeders, want this stuff to stop. Only way to stop it is to get the FBI involved from the farms to the tracks IMO

[Tom]

After being rewarded big time singling Firenze Fire on top, I almost didn't want to believe Servis was juicing him but then I watched Fig Jelly yesterday and I'm convinced something fishy may be going on. On paper Fig Jelly looked like he didn't have much of a chance to win the race and he simply romped at 2-1.

Here is a good rule of thumb for Servis horses - add 18 Beyer points to the the previous best. That is the median improvement for his last 24 winners.

Would be especially interesting to see how those 24 winners were bet as well.
Late money, odds drop in the second fraction?

I suspect as long as Servis is entering horses, we bettors will need something close to Fig Jelly, but not exactly that. :eek::rolleyes:

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1016470302073675778

[cj]

Nothing to see here with Servis. Don't believe me, believe him!

https://www.horseracingnation.com/news/On_roll_of_a_lifetime_Servis_says_chatter_is_embar rassing_123#

[Grits]

Nothing to see here with Servis. Don't believe me, believe him!

https://www.horseracingnation.com/news/On_roll_of_a_lifetime_Servis_says_chatter_is_embar rassing_123#

I read this yesterday. First class...and all like that. :lol:



“People are talking a lot of shit,” Servis said, “and I’m really not happy about it.”

[Tom]

Awwwwww. The poor baby.

[Tom]

There once was a trainer named Servis,
Whose horses made bettors nervous.
He swore they were "streaks"
And they all passed their "leaks."
But he does the game a dis-service.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/BillFinley3/status/1016780570788089856

[linrom1]

https://twitter.com/BillFinley3/status/1016780570788089856

This is beginning to look like that incident with Randal Gindi and Jorge Navarro all over again?

[thaskalos]

Nothing to see here with Servis. Don't believe me, believe him!

https://www.horseracingnation.com/news/On_roll_of_a_lifetime_Servis_says_chatter_is_embar rassing_123#

Finally, Servis reveals the secret to his amazing success:

"If I'm not 3-1...I don't run." :rolleyes:

[Spalding No!]

Finally, Servis reveals the secret to his amazing success:

"If I'm not 3-1...I don't run." :rolleyes:
Aren't all his horses going to be 3-1 or lower now due to the singular fact that they are trained by Jason Servis?

[GMB@BP]

Aren't all his horses going to be 3-1 or lower now due to the singular fact that they are trained by Jason Servis?


Well his average odds have been 4/1 at Belmont, and in alw/stake races it has been 5.3/1....in those races he is 12/22, he also has a 20/1 winner in there (not quite 3/1)

[Tom]

Aren't all his horses going to be 3-1 or lower now due to the singular fact that they are trained by Jason Servis?

They will be...in the last 36 seconds.:rolleyes:

[Andy Asaro]

Didn't want to start another thread for this. May not fit with this one.



https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1018185049026379776

[Tom]

Well well well.
Who would have thought it wasn't his superior training talent at work!
He might be in line for a 5 day vacation and $100 fine!

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1018978149441261568

[jay68802]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1018978149441261568

Mott "Bill" William is a Hall of Fame trainer, deservedly so. His long time assistant in New York is LeAnna Willaford, an outstanding horse woman in her own right. Both of these people, IMO, are people that the industry needs more of.

As a assistant trainer, Mrs. Willaford has many duties in the care of these horses. And one of those duties is overseeing what medications are given to these horse's.

On July 2nd, Mr. Williams accepted and served a 7 day suspension and paid a $1000.00 fine for a drug violation, that happened in New York. In this case I have no doubt that the overage was not intended in any way to try to improve the horses performance, but was simply a error in judging how long the drug would stay in the horses system. This happens to the best of people, but, is still a violation of the rules.

On July 2nd, his assistant, Leanna Willaford was granted her trainers license. Horses from Mr. Williams, that ran in New York during the suspension, were then reported as being trained by her. These horse's did not move, nor was there a change in their day to day training. They simply were able to stay in the same routine they were accustom to. In the week of the suspension, these horse's won over $190,000 in purse monies. And a percentage of those monies will be paid to Mrs. Willaford for being the trainer.

The change was reported in past performance's as follows. If the horse had no starts, Leanna was listed as the trainer, and it appeared that she had been training the horse the whole time. If the horse had a start, a trainer change was listed, and the date of the change was reported as if the change had happened on the date the horse last started. In both cases the information is false and misleading. If you knew that Leanna was Bill's New York assistant, you were not concerned, but if you did not know this, it gave you another factor to weigh in looking at the race.

Since the training facility that the horses were at is owned by Mr Williams, and is also listed as a boarding facility, it would not surprise me that he was able to charge Mrs. Willaford for the boarding of these animals.

So in the end, a trainer is suspended and fined. His assistant is granted a training license, and is allowed to run the horses. And the % of the purse monies won, is then given to the assistant trainer, who was one of the persons responsible for the drug violation in the first place. Then the assistant probably has to pay the suspended trainer, boarding fees.

All of this is perfectly legal under the rules that govern racing in New York.

Horse racing does not police itself, and with the way the rules are written, enables every trainer to be able to cheat.

[clicknow]

So they rejected Rick Dutrow's request to for a hearing to amend his license revocation.

Perfect scapegoat for this industry, makes it "look like they are doing something"......while the miscreants who ship their horses to the kill pens with racing plates still attached and lip tatoos literally filed off, and all the "too big to fail" trainers and their pharmacists get to keep doing whatever it is that they do.

Who else will get 10 years ..this year, or next year or the year after?

Answer: 0

AFAIC Dutrow fits right in with at least a dozen+ other trainers who are still licensed. A central governing body is needed to apply the rules evenly and fairly.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1019592350304120832

[jay68802]

Some comments.

Q: The CTT and the TOC’s push back against these new rules has been described as obstructionism and an attempt to shield cheaters. What is your position on OOC testing? Are you against its expansion in California?

A: Any suggestion that the TOC or the CTT condone cheating is patently preposterous. Both organizations, in writing and verbally, have made very clear that we are in favor of out-of-competition testing. We always have.

Great answer. :rolleyes: You can say and write whatever the appropriate response should be. The thing is you have to eventually back up these statements by actions. So far, the only action you have shown is the opposition to the rules that are trying to be implemented.


Q: You’ve pinpointed a number of things you consider wrong with the proposed rules, including who is ultimately responsible for the horse when it’s outside a licensed facility. Can you summarize your position on this?

A: The language they’ve come up with to hold either the owner or the trainer responsible outside of the enclosure is something that needs a lot more work.

Now your getting somewhere, you oppose the rules because it would hold the trainers and owners responsible. Hmmm, really? I have a idea, just type a form that states once a horse leaves a "secured facility" Richard Dutrow is responsible for the horse and all your problems are solved. You are the same people that pushed the wording that allows owners to transfer a horse from a suspended trainer so it could race, and basically stopped suspension from being a punishment. If owners and trainers are not responsible for the horse, there is no way to stop cheating.

Q: So, why haven’t you delivered already a blueprint outlining what you would like to see in place, regarding the precision tracking of horses?

A: That’s why we’ve asked for working group meetings to brainstorm this problem. Are the racetracks really on top of the horses on the ground? They’re supposed to be, but they, generally speaking, aren’t. And any kind of flaw in the system can be exploited by cheaters. We don’t want the cheaters to be able to exploit the loopholes in the rules to get away with cheating — in the worst possible case, the horse being sent some place for a cheating procedure.

You want to talk about this for a long time. Delay, delay, delay. You don't want the cheaters to be able to exploit the loopholes? Sounds like you want to write the rules in a way so that the trainers and owners have loopholes so they are not responsible. And by the way, "cheaters" and "trainers and owners" are not two separate groups. There is only one group, trainers and owners. It just happens that some of the trainers and owners are cheaters.


Q: Okay, so what workable, tangible differences to what’s in the proposed rules could you consider being implemented?

A: We need to conquer the problem about how to determine when a horse is leaving the grounds and where its destination is. I can easily see some kind of methodology in terms of responsibility, some methodology of saying, ‘from this point forward, this horse is under the responsibility of x person.’


When a horse is leaving the grounds is a problem? This is the day the horse is loaded into a van, not to hard to figure this out. Where the horse is going is hard to figure out? This is where the above mentioned van stops and unloads the horse. Some methodology of saying, ‘from this point forward, this horse is under the responsibility of x person.’? You mean you want to be able to say who the "cheater" is, as long as it is not the trainer or owner.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1019989454268784643

Paolucci said Thursday by phone from his primary residence in Frisco, Texas, that his clashes with “the racing elite” have taken a toll on his mental and physical health, and “the final nail” came with the disqualification of Game Over from a July 9 allowance at Thistledown.

Game Over won easily when coupled with another Loooch horse, Chromium, at 1-5 odds. However, Chromium, ridden by Luis Raul Rivera, was deemed guilty of fouling another horse, leading to Game Over being placed second.

[highnote]

I've been looking at Hong Kong racing quite a bit over the summer. The Hong Kong Jockey Club has a terrific website and all the information is free at http://www.hkjc.com.

The HKJC run a tight ship. The main thing I like about their racing is their strict drug use policy. The use of Lasix, for example, is never allowed to be used -- even in training.

Contrast HK's drug policies with Kentucky's policies -- some of the most liberal in the world.

When I was managing a racing stable and raced out of Mountaineer Park our trainer would not allow us to claim horses that shipped up from KY because too many of them were only able to race with the help of drugs. This was a widely held belief among MNR trainers and owners.

[BCOURTNEY]

I've been looking at Hong Kong racing quite a bit over the summer. The Hong Kong Jockey Club has a terrific website and all the information is free at http://www.hkjc.com.

The HKJC run a tight ship. The main thing I like about their racing is their strict drug use policy. The use of Lasix, for example, is never allowed to be used -- even in training.

Contrast HK's drug policies with Kentucky's policies -- some of the most liberal in the world.

When I was managing a racing stable and raced out of Mountaineer Park our trainer would not allow us to claim horses that shipped up from KY because too many of them were only able to race with the help of drugs. This was a widely held belief among MNR trainers and owners.

Transparent on vet records, investigations when a heavy favorite doesn't place, actual jockey suspensions.. the list goes on.. and on.. They are a great model for the future.. they wil; make it because they insist it's a professionally run game so it operates and acts like one, you get the sense it will survive a long time... downsides are a known small population of animals, small number of venues.

[highnote]

Transparent on vet records, investigations when a heavy favorite doesn't place, actual jockey suspensions.. the list goes on.. and on.. They are a great model for the future.. they wil; make it because they insist it's a professionally run game so it operates and acts like one, you get the sense it will survive a long time... downsides are a known small population of animals, small number of venues.

The benefit of a small number of animals is that you get to know the horses. That might not appeal to everyone, but that doesn't bother me. I like that they have a lot of handicap races. From what I have seen there are a lot more longshot winners because of the amount of weight a horse has to carry gives longshots a better chance. The turf races have a lot of close finishes with 12 to 14 horse fields which makes for exciting racing.

HK racing might be better compared to what U.S. racing could have been like in the 1940s when horseracing was the only legal gambling outlet. The tracks made a lot of money and could better support the product. Now, there is so much legalized gambling that it is hard for a U.S. track to stay in business without some kind of subsidy.

I used to really like NYRA in the mid-1990s when Lasix was banned. Part of the reason NYRA legalized it was because of economics. Other jurisdictions allowed Lasix so NYRA was forced to allow it, too, or risk losing horses to other venues where it was permitted.

The biggest positive for me about HK racing is that drugs are not permitted -- even in training. At least I know when I'm handicapping that I don't have to worry handicapping the trainers to determine who has the best pharmaceuticals or who is best at masking snake venom.

[BCOURTNEY]

... boring for game, bad for wagering value.

This is not a spectator sport - and the horsemen forget this frequently, we demand competitive fields and wagering opportunities.

[highnote]

... boring for game, bad for wagering value.

This is not a spectator sport - and the horsemen forget this frequently, we demand competitive fields and wagering opportunities.

Good point. I watch a lot of pro and college football and basketball, but rarely, if ever, wager on them. I might buy into a March Madness office pool every other year or buy a box at a Super Bowl party, but I actually enjoy watching the games without betting on the outcome.

Very rarely is a horse race interesting to watch just for the fun of it -- except if I am an owner. But in that case, I am still gambling. I win purse money if my horse wins and I risk the expense money getting it ready to race.

I can watch LeBron or Brady play a game simply for the entertainment value.

[BCOURTNEY]

The benefit of a small number of animals is that you get to know the horses. That might not appeal to everyone, but that doesn't bother me. I like that they have a lot of handicap races. From what I have seen there are a lot more longshot winners because of the amount of weight a horse has to carry gives longshots a better chance. The turf races have a lot of close finishes with 12 to 14 horse fields which makes for exciting racing.

HK racing might be better compared to what U.S. racing could have been like in the 1940s when horseracing was the only legal gambling outlet. The tracks made a lot of money and could better support the product. Now, there is so much legalized gambling that it is hard for a U.S. track to stay in business without some kind of subsidy.

I used to really like NYRA in the mid-1990s when Lasix was banned. Part of the reason NYRA legalized it was because of economics. Other jurisdictions allowed Lasix so NYRA was forced to allow it, too, or risk losing horses to other venues where it was permitted.

The biggest positive for me about HK racing is that drugs are not permitted -- even in training. At least I know when I'm handicapping that I don't have to worry handicapping the trainers to determine who has the best pharmaceuticals or who is best at masking snake venom.

Yes, I'm all for less dropped buzzers on the track as well. I would prefer that US racing reinvent itself, they have a great model to extract some ideas from.

[clicknow]

The biggest positive for me about HK racing is that drugs are not permitted -- even in training. At least I know when I'm handicapping that I don't have to worry handicapping the trainers to determine who has the best pharmaceuticals or who is best at masking snake venom.

many have been singing the praises of Hong Kong racing for years now, and myself and many horse racing friends are putting more of our wagering dollar to that track. I can handicap horses, but I can't handicap drugs and cripples.

Plus, they have Jenny Chapman :) She's a great analyst.

[highnote]

many have been singing the praises of Hong Kong racing for years now, and myself and many horse racing friends are putting more of our wagering dollar to that track. I can handicap horses, but I can't handicap drugs and cripples.

Plus, they have Jenny Chapman :) She's a great analyst.

Jenny's paddock analysis is terrific! She's the best paddock handicapper I've seen since Nick Mordin.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/BH_JBalan/status/1020375417721520128

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/BH_JBalan/status/1020388771223629824

[highnote]

Which U.S. racing jurisdictions have the strictest drug policies? Which have the most lenient?

As far as I am aware, Hong Kong is the industry leader in drug-free racing.

[jay68802]

Which U.S. racing jurisdictions have the strictest drug policies? Which have the most lenient?

As far as I am aware, Hong Kong is the industry leader in drug-free racing.

Does not matter who has the toughest policies, it matters how the policies are enforced. In Hong Kong, the suspensions are real. Here the trainers and owners can easily get around the suspensions.

[highnote]

Does not matter who has the toughest policies, it matters how the policies are enforced. In Hong Kong, the suspensions are real. Here the trainers and owners can easily get around the suspensions.

Then let me rephrase the question. Which jurisdictions have the toughest drug enforcement policies?

[MadVindication]

The benefit of a small number of animals is that you get to know the horses.

Sounds good. What service do you use to view races in Hong Kong? Can you recommend an online televisor/wagering site?

[highnote]

Sounds good. What service do you use to view races in Hong Kong? Can you recommend an online televisor/wagering site?

A lot of people use xpressbet.com, amwager.com, twinspires.com, and mywinners.com to bet on HK races and watch the races live.

There are probably more. Any internet search engine will help you find a lot of suggestions.

My suggestion is to open up an account with all of them and then decide which one you like best.

It is good to have money in more than one account. You never know when a site will crash, but it usually crashes just as your about to make a big bet.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1026464258672848896

[GMB@BP]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1026464258672848896

Honestly that horse won but she hardly felt like anything special. I would put her well behind Brill, Mother Mother and Chasing Yesterday.

[Tom]

I think any horse entering a race should have to prove it has been drug-free for a minimum of 90 days.

A medical record for all race horses should be mandatory from the time the enter training as a two-year old. Falsifications or omission of any procedure would be seriously dealt with - ie, horse unable to run for 6 months, trainer fined, owner fined. Something that hurts $$$.

The technology for this and most other of the feeble excuses the racing industry makes for its incompetence exits today - not using it is unacceptable. This is 2018, not 1968.

[cj]

Honestly that horse won but she hardly felt like anything special. I would put her well behind Brill, Mother Mother and Chasing Yesterday.

Top 2yo fillies so far on my numbers below. Looks like a strong crop out west early on.

https://image.ibb.co/kucq6K/2yo_Fillies18.png

[hracingplyr]

Spare us the accolades. Everyone knows this guy is using more than hay and oats. high profile trainers very seldom get caught only the claiming trainers.

[trifecta]

Didn't want to start another thread for this. May not fit with this one.



https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1018185049026379776


Persaud suspended..

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/persaud-suspended-30-days-for-possession-of-injectable-drugs/

[GMB@BP]

Top 2yo fillies so far on my numbers below. Looks like a strong crop out west early on.

https://image.ibb.co/kucq6K/2yo_Fillies18.png

I would say this is the strongest year since probably Tempara won, I think that was the year Baffert had 2 or 3 really good ones and then Tempara ended up being better then them all.

[GMB@BP]

Spare us the accolades. Everyone knows this guy is using more than hay and oats. high profile trainers very seldom get caught only the claiming trainers.

when in Rome do as the Romans.

This is a really bad sport to back the 100% clean people, you wouldnt have much to bet on.

[Tom]

You need to find out how to bet the super trainers.
I have a spot play on Jorge Navarro that has been hitting at 1.34 roi to win and 1.04 to place since start of July.

If you can't beat 'em, bet em.

[GMB@BP]

You need to find out how to bet the super trainers.
I have a spot play on Jorge Navarro that has been hitting at 1.34 roi to win and 1.04 to place since start of July.

If you can't beat 'em, bet em.

FR1 top ranked is hitting at 60% with a 1.05 ROI this meet with favorites.......no other handicapping. With a rebate you would be killing it with not so much stress either.

[Tom]

I have a couple of plays the were hitting over 1.30 for three consecutive weeks, until I started posting them now they are not even hitting a winner a day.
I am done with Toga for good.
This year is a total waste of time.

[Thomas Roulston]

Many states used to ban Lasix and/or Bute for 2-year-olds - but I guess you don't see this much anymore.

[Thomas Roulston]

I lean toward saying that they're bad for the game - but only for reasons of quantity, not quality.

Back in the days when there were many good trainers, it was feasible to have horses that were trained by the same trainer but owned by different owners to run as a coupled entry. Try doing that now and there would be an endless litany of three- and four-betting-interest fields.

[Andy Asaro]

Trainers receive warning about use of drug called Regu Mate which may contain steroids

• BHA will issue advisory notice on product Regu-Mate

• Black Caviar trainer says ‘all my better mares were on it’

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2018/sep/10/trainers-issued-warning-drug-use-regu-mate-streroids-british-horseracing-authority

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1042126185134612481

[GMB@BP]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1042126185134612481

what does one have to do with the other?

[Andy Asaro]

what does one have to do with the other?

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1042128446946541568

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1042130895228960768

[GMB@BP]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1042128446946541568

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1042130895228960768

Oh, you had an had a supposition, I thought it was rooted in some kind of fact.

carry on.

[cj]

Another thread that is fun to go back and re-read.

[cj]

This race was everything that is wrong with racing in 2018. It is a shame. We should be able to celebrate a 3yo romping to victory over a solid field. Instead we are left to wonder about a trainer who seemingly can't lose while his horses show newfound speed and stamina and huge bets changing the odds at the last minute.

Probably the best post I've ever made :)

[Tom]

There once was a trainer named Servis,
Whose horses made bettors nervous.
He swore they were "streaks"
And they all passed their "leaks."
But he does the game a dis-service.

And this may be my best ever! :lol:

[Tom]

So what do we do with Fig Jelly in the 6th at Belmont. Goes to Servis from Wayne Rice who was at 0% when Fig Jelly was claimed from him. :lol:

Look up Fig Jelly in Equibase - in his last 10 or so races - two MAJOR EB speed ratings out of nowhere, recently. (108 and 116)

[cj]

And this may be my best ever! :lol:

Fabulous, was laughing at it yet again this morning.

[the little guy]

Look up Fig Jelly in Equibase - in his last 10 or so races - two MAJOR EB speed ratings out of nowhere, recently. (108 and 116)

That was one of the problems with him, the jump ups sometimes that you couldn't really predict. It's one thing to know his numbers off the claim, but all too often the pps didn't really matter with him. I Tweeted ( I believe it was the Spring/Summer of 2018 ) that past performances were basically useless for handicapping Jason Servis. I took some heat for it, but it had become painfully obvious that there were frequent random big performances from his runners.

[Track Phantom]

That was one of the problems with him, the jump ups sometimes that you couldn't really predict. It's one thing to know his numbers off the claim, but all too often the pps didn't really matter with him. I Tweeted ( I believe it was the Spring/Summer of 2018 ) that past performances were basically useless for handicapping Jason Servis. I took some heat for it, but it had become painfully obvious that there were frequent random big performances from his runners.
TLG: Do you predict a drop in win% by some other high percentage guys across the country based on the events of this week? Obviously, these trainers aren't the only ones in the country doing this very thing. I'd think other trainers who are doing this have to be concerned and change their behavior, even if in the short term. Do you believe that will happen and, if so, doesn't that give us horseplayers a window of opportunity to exploit that at the windows?

[the little guy]

TLG: Do you predict a drop in win% by some other high percentage guys across the country based on the events of this week? Obviously, these trainers aren't the only ones in the country doing this very thing. I'd think other trainers who are doing this have to be concerned and change their behavior, even if in the short term. Do you believe that will happen and, if so, doesn't that give us horseplayers a window of opportunity to exploit that at the windows?

I think people often focus on just win percentage ( for instance, Chad Brown has a high win percentage, and while I realize the irresponsible lunatics like to call him a cheater, given he pretty much never has explosions out of the blue, or great numbers off trainer switches, it doesn't make sense to the rational thinkers among us ) too much. It's more about explosions, big improvements off claim, and somewhat erratic form. It's hard to know, and I am not going to name names here who I suspect, but I will keep an eye on how their horses run, and whether they run at all. Like a lot of people, I wonder if there are more to come, just as like them I have no inside information.

I hope this is the start of cleaning the game up and getting rid of the people that are effectively ruining this game. Only time will tell, but I think it's fair to say it's a good start. I don't play much where Navarro races, but Jason Servis's act has been infuriating me for a LONG time. It would be nice to be able to handicap with at least a minimum of suspicion.

[dilanesp]

It's worth noting that the "cheating" problem likely goes beyond simply trainers who are engineering ridiculous form reversals.

In every other sport that has had a PED problem, the effect of PED use was to force basically all the major players to use them. For instance, in track and field, Ben Johnson ran 9.79 in the Olympic Games using PED's (at the time, a ridiculously good performance), but his competitor Carl Lewis, who had a much more rational and explicable career, was also a doper. In cycling, Lance Armstrong doped his way to 6 Tours de France, but the cyclists behind him were also using EPO. In baseball, Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire set home run records on steroids, but many 25 home run guys were doping too.

If horse racing seriously addressed its drug problems, you will find that a lot of the people who aren't engineering dramatic form reversals are also dopers. It's inevitable. There are unlikely to be any "good guys". There certainly weren't in other sports.

[Track Phantom]

I think people often focus on just win percentage ( for instance, Chad Brown has a high win percentage, and while I realize the irresponsible lunatics like to call him a cheater, given he pretty much never has explosions out of the blue, or great numbers off trainer switches, it doesn't make sense to the rational thinkers among us ) too much. It's more about explosions, big improvements off claim, and somewhat erratic form. It's hard to know, and I am not going to name names here who I suspect, but I will keep an eye on how their horses run, and whether they run at all. Like a lot of people, I wonder if there are more to come, just as like them I have no inside information.

I hope this is the start of cleaning the game up and getting rid of the people that are effectively ruining this game. Only time will tell, but I think it's fair to say it's a good start. I don't play much where Navarro races, but Jason Servis's act has been infuriating me for a LONG time. It would be nice to be able to handicap with at least a minimum of suspicion.
Thanks TLG. I feel the same way about everything you wrote. The Servis phenomenon was so blatant and brazen that he hardly could've drawn more attention if he'd lit himself on fire. I agree that I hope this is the start of a new era for US-based horse racing.

Some unprecedented times in and out of the horse racing world, that is for sure.

[Robert Fischer]

There are unlikely to be any "good guys". There certainly weren't in other sports.

If an aging "Kareem" played today, he'd have 10lbs more muscle, and hair...



At least there are some good guys in the game. “It is time for the horse-racing industry to unite in support of a national anti-doping regulatory system." (https://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/baffert-federal-indictments-have-convinced-me-industry-needs-horseracing-integrity-act/) - Bob Baffert


Just about time for me to withdraw my little ADW funds, and take a 'hiatus'.

It's possible that the sport will take a break after Saturday's cards, while the Nation battles Covid-19.

I also don't know whether I can trust the doping trainers to continue to dope, or whether they'll run 'flat' horses, or whether they'll double-down...

It's a guessing game right now.

[Tom]

A hiatus for w while would give tracks a change to quietly review the usual suspects that leech off the game and remove them low key.

[GMB@BP]

I think people often focus on just win percentage ( for instance, Chad Brown has a high win percentage, and while I realize the irresponsible lunatics like to call him a cheater, given he pretty much never has explosions out of the blue, or great numbers off trainer switches, it doesn't make sense to the rational thinkers among us ) too much. It's more about explosions, big improvements off claim, and somewhat erratic form. It's hard to know, and I am not going to name names here who I suspect, but I will keep an eye on how their horses run, and whether they run at all. Like a lot of people, I wonder if there are more to come, just as like them I have no inside information.

I hope this is the start of cleaning the game up and getting rid of the people that are effectively ruining this game. Only time will tell, but I think it's fair to say it's a good start. I don't play much where Navarro races, but Jason Servis's act has been infuriating me for a LONG time. It would be nice to be able to handicap with at least a minimum of suspicion.

Well said.

I think there was definitely a wagering aspect to this that was part of the scheme, maybe its already been done, but a thorough investigation on some of these magical performances needs to happen in terms of betting patterns.

[timp]

What work does he do please tell me I bet hasn’t touched a pitch fork or mucked a stall in 10 years .hasnt put a bandage on in that long if he ever did there’s trainers that have 10 horses that do all there own work and sometimes run there own horses .hes full of baloney and so is candy ass gaffer this same goes for him I can’t picture him putting a bandage on a horse .work they don’t know the meaning of it .