Mandatory Pick 6 Payout?....Not Really

[jay68802]

http://www.paulickreport.com/horseplayers-category/saturday-card-at-churchill-could-include-300000-mandatory-pick-6-payout/


Should say mandatory increase in revenue for CDI. Not paying out the whole carry over pool is pure theft. I have spent 2 days looking at the card, anticipating a carry over. Screw them.

[jay68802]

If the only interest you can generate for your track is a carry over pool, IMPROVE YOUR PRODUCT. You have one of the best breeding population in the world, and if you can't put out a good product with that advantage, change what you are doing, it is not working.

[SG4]

Why be upset at this? I think it's a great idea, it's giving more chances for bettors to play into pools with lower net takeouts instead of the money just sitting there the rest of the meet. It's a benefit for CD as well, a win-win far as I'm concerned. I've always thought the best of both worlds for players and tracks were if these jackpots were paid out automatically whether it be the end of every month, or once a carry hits something like $500,000.

[Onion Monster]

These bets are great. Instead of dying a little bit every day at the track, you get to die all at once.

[jay68802]

Why be upset at this? I think it's a great idea, it's giving more chances for bettors to play into pools with lower net takeouts instead of the money just sitting there the rest of the meet. It's a benefit for CD as well, a win-win far as I'm concerned. I've always thought the best of both worlds for players and tracks were if these jackpots were paid out automatically whether it be the end of every month, or once a carry hits something like $500,000.

Do you think Crookhill Downs is doing this for the player? They are doing it because on Sunday it gives them a extra $45,000 in take out. How would you feel to be the only player to hit this bet on Saturday and have the $300,000.00 not paid to you. As for more chances, you can play this bet every day. You have plenty of chances.

Pay the bets automatically? That is why when the bet started, there is a mandatory payout at the end of the meet. Wake up, Crookhill does not want to loose the takeout. It is that simple, instead of starting over and trying to carry a small pool till it builds, they want to keep their revenue, and screw the players.

Nothing but a money grab.

[River11]

Do you think Crookhill Downs is doing this for the player? They are doing it because on Sunday it gives them a extra $45,000 in take out. How would you feel to be the only player to hit this bet on Saturday and have the $300,000.00 not paid to you. As for more chances, you can play this bet every day. You have plenty of chances.

Pay the bets automatically? That is why when the bet started, there is a mandatory payout at the end of the meet. Wake up, Crookhill does not want to loose the takeout. It is that simple, instead of starting over and trying to carry a small pool till it builds, they want to keep their revenue, and screw the players.

Nothing but a money grab.

If there is a single p6 ticket on Saturday the entire carryover will be payed out, if multiple tickets then the 300k of the pool is divided.

[jay68802]

If there is a single p6 ticket on Saturday the entire carryover will be payed out, if multiple tickets then the 300k of the pool is divided.

You are correct, my mistake.

Still does not change the fact that it is the continued take out on the $300,000.00 that they want. Getting $45,000+ a day instead of $4,500.00+ a day while the pot rebuilds. Like I said before, just a money grab.

[SG4]

Do you think Crookhill Downs is doing this for the player? They are doing it because on Sunday it gives them a extra $45,000 in take out. How would you feel to be the only player to hit this bet on Saturday and have the $300,000.00 not paid to you. As for more chances, you can play this bet every day. You have plenty of chances.

Pay the bets automatically? That is why when the bet started, there is a mandatory payout at the end of the meet. Wake up, Crookhill does not want to loose the takeout. It is that simple, instead of starting over and trying to carry a small pool till it builds, they want to keep their revenue, and screw the players.

Nothing but a money grab.


I don't understand your thinking on this on a number of levels, and already it's shown you had some misconceptions about what happens if there's a single ticket winner on Saturday, but that didn't change your annoyance.



First off I don't think it's a money grab by CD, but I do think it's smart business for them, because this actually is good for the player which means more revenue for them. Who knows, between lowering their pick 5 takeout this meet & the way they've handled their jackpot 6 so far this season, I'm almost willing to think someone who is clued in to gamblers might have a voice at the table finally around there.



The more chances to play this bet I was referring to were the more chances you can play with a large guaranteed carryover as part of the pool, no matter if it's a single winner. You can indeed play this bet every day for the very unlikely chance of taking down the entire pool, but I think players would appreciate a pool thrown in here & there that essentially reduces the takeout to zero, while still giving you that chance to take down a single score. Like I said before, it's a win-win.



Also I don't understand what you mean about CD not wanting to lose the takeout through this move? If anything, as I think Gulfstream's large rainbow carries show, as the pot builds the pools build, thus making it less and less likely to be paid out in full. By cutting the jackpot pool in half, CD will actually lose some day to day revenue on this bet & possibly be more likely to have the jackpot wiped out before the last day of the meet, which is of course the ideal date to have the jackpot carry into. So this move I think is a smart hedge for them where they are guaranteed at least a big pool on Saturday, and they'll hope the jackpot continues after that.


Overall, IMO every track in the country with a jackpot wager should emulate CD's formula. With a 15% takeout, only 10% carried each day and a 20c base wager, this is the best pick 6 value in the country. I can't pick a winner to save my life at CD lately but I am honestly thrilled with their format, as it makes this bet playable every single day whether or not you're aiming to take down the jackpot.

[jay68802]

http://http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2016/05/churchills-change-to-pick-6-rules.html

[jay68802]

I don't understand your thinking on this on a number of levels, and already it's shown you had some misconceptions about what happens if there's a single ticket winner on Saturday, but that didn't change your annoyance.



First off I don't think it's a money grab by CD, but I do think it's smart business for them, because this actually is good for the player which means more revenue for them. Who knows, between lowering their pick 5 takeout this meet & the way they've handled their jackpot 6 so far this season, I'm almost willing to think someone who is clued in to gamblers might have a voice at the table finally around there.

The only voice at the table was CDI. You are partly right about it being "smart business" in the fact that CDI gets to keep on getting their %15 of the $300,000 instead of paying that money out.



The more chances to play this bet I was referring to were the more chances you can play with a large guaranteed carryover as part of the pool, no matter if it's a single winner. You can indeed play this bet every day for the very unlikely chance of taking down the entire pool, but I think players would appreciate a pool thrown in here & there that essentially reduces the takeout to zero, while still giving you that chance to take down a single score. Like I said before, it's a win-win.

There is no guaranteed carry over or pool size.

Also I don't understand what you mean about CD not wanting to lose the takeout through this move? If anything, as I think Gulfstream's large rainbow carries show, as the pot builds the pools build, thus making it less and less likely to be paid out in full. By cutting the jackpot pool in half, CD will actually lose some day to day revenue on this bet & possibly be more likely to have the jackpot wiped out before the last day of the meet, which is of course the ideal date to have the jackpot carry into. So this move I think is a smart hedge for them where they are guaranteed at least a big pool on Saturday, and they'll hope the jackpot continues after that.

If they would pay the whole pool out, like they should, their pool on Sunday would start at $0. CDI's take out would be %15 of the pool for that day, around $30,000, or $4,500.00. Instead it will be guaranteed that CDI will get $45,000.00 + as their cut.


Overall, IMO every track in the country with a jackpot wager should emulate CD's formula. With a 15% takeout, only 10% carried each day and a 20c base wager, this is the best pick 6 value in the country. I can't pick a winner to save my life at CD lately but I am honestly thrilled with their format, as it makes this bet playable every single day whether or not you're aiming to take down the jackpot.

I agree with the low take out part.

[lamboguy]

i have a question regarding
s hypothetical in a jackpot bet

lets say you make a ticket with various combinations. you come to a race where you originally had 4 selections. one of them already the post time favorite. one of the other horses gets lose and runs off and gets scratched. ultimately the favorite wins and yo9u now have 2 tickets because of the scratch. you hit the other 6 races and nobody else has 6 for 6. did you just lose your rainbow jackpot qualification because you got rewarded with the post time favorite?

[River11]

i have a question regarding
s hypothetical in a jackpot bet

lets say you make a ticket with various combinations. you come to a race where you originally had 4 selections. one of them already the post time favorite. one of the other horses gets lose and runs off and gets scratched. ultimately the favorite wins and yo9u now have 2 tickets because of the scratch. you hit the other 6 races and nobody else has 6 for 6. did you just lose your rainbow jackpot qualification because you got rewarded with the post time favorite?

This is copied from CD p6 rules.

20) In the Unique Pick-6, if a single patron ends up with the only winning ticket but has more than one winning wager on that ticket, regardless of how it occurred, that patron will not be eligible for the Unique Pick-6 Jackpot carryover.

[TiffaniO]

i have a question regarding
s hypothetical in a jackpot bet

lets say you make a ticket with various combinations. you come to a race where you originally had 4 selections. one of them already the post time favorite. one of the other horses gets lose and runs off and gets scratched. ultimately the favorite wins and yo9u now have 2 tickets because of the scratch. you hit the other 6 races and nobody else has 6 for 6. did you just lose your rainbow jackpot qualification because you got rewarded with the post time favorite?

Yes you get screwed.

Beulah Park when they started this bet would refund ANY scratch.

[jay68802]

Got sort of a shock this morning, I did not realize that CDI has been doing this for a long time now.

Date........ Seed Pool... Total Pool... Carry Over... Rev W Co... Rev WO CO... Extra in Rev
5/11/2018... 385131.00... 96661.00... 481792.00... 393347.00... 72268.80... 14499.15... 57769.65
5/12/2018... 393347.00... 154846.00... 548193.00... 406475.00... 82228.95... 23226.90... 59002.05
5/13/2018... 406475.00... 150678.00... 557153.00... 419279.00... 83572.95... 22601.70... 60971.25
5/17/2018... 419279.00... 79077.00... 498356.00... 425999.00... 74753.40... 11861.55... 62891.85
5/18/2018... 425999.00... 84919.00... 510918.00... 433216.00... 76637.70... 12737.85... 63899.85
5/19/2018... 433216.00... 114816.00... 548032.00... 442974.00... 82204.80... 17222.40... 64982.40
5/20/2018... 442974.00... 209628.00... 652602.00... 460789.00... 97890.30... 31444.20... 66446.10
5/24/2018... 460789.00... 122115.00... 582904.00... 471168.00... 87435.60... 18317.25... 69118.35
5/25/2018... 471168.00... 151675.00... 622843.00... 484060.00... 93426.45... 22751.25... 70675.20
5/26/2018... 484060.00... 178058.00... 662118.00... 636166.00... 99317.70... 26708.70... 72609.00
5/27/2018... 636166.00... 245032.00... 881198.00... 656990.00... 132179.70... 36754.80... 95424.90
5/28/2018... 656990.00... 182320.00... 839310.00... 672846.00... 125896.50... 27348.00... 98548.50
5/31/2018... 672846.00... 142462.00... 815308.00... 684595.00... 122296.20... 21369.30... 100926.90
6/1/2018.... 684595.00... 131013.00... 815608.00... 695728.00... 122341.20... 19651.95... 102689.25

Since May 11th, when this pool started, with "seed" money of $385,131.00. the pools and carryover for every day.

Crookhill Downs has recieved $102,268.25 in extra takeout from handle for "seeding" the pool. If you are a stockholder in CDI, before you get on the phone and start calling, wondering why CDI is risking $385,131.00 to fund a pool that could be won on any day. Do not worry, this is not CDI's money that they are using. This money was "donated" by the "winning" players on May 7th, who look a lower payout on their tickets, so CDI could do this generous pool. But don't worry, the "winning" players today get to do the same thing.

And Crookhill Downs will get more takeout from it.

[jay68802]

May 12
"Churchill Downs Pick 6 Carryover with Mandatory Payout

The Derby's over but the Spring Meet action continues this Thursday at Churchill Downs with Twilight Thursdays and a BIG Pick 6 carryover worth $343,154.

Thursday's carryover is also a mandatory payout pool, meaning all players with the most winners on a single ticket will take down the carryover, plus whatever is bet into the pool on Thursday."

From the Twinspires website, notice they are advertising that they will pay the whole pool including carryover, even though they have not paid out the full carryover since 2016.

[dilanesp]

This is copied from CD p6 rules.

20) In the Unique Pick-6, if a single patron ends up with the only winning ticket but has more than one winning wager on that ticket, regardless of how it occurred, that patron will not be eligible for the Unique Pick-6 Jackpot carryover.

Thry have to do it this way to prevent fraud


But if both winners caused by a scratch are on the same physical ticket I think they should pay it.

[Poindexter]

I have to side with SG4 on this. I think the public has shown they like the 20 cent pick 6. Even though it is hard to win the jackpot, we do see jackpots come down even on 20 cent pick 5's, so we know that jackpots do get hit. If I understand correctly, the takeout is 15% and in addtiion 10% is going towards carryover. So $100,000 pool, $85,000 paid out of which 10% is going to carryover to the public is getting back $76,500. Net takeout if you do not consider the jackpot is 23.5%. Isn't socal charging almost that much on it's late pick 5. Del Mar an Santa Anita charge 23.68% on their pick 6 which is the $2 variety, but of course they offer their version of a jackpot. If I am wrong about any of this feel free to correct me.

Like you I wish Churchill would just seed the pools with their own money, but I do think they are up front about their rules. If I recall correctly this carryover money came from Kentucky Derby Day, when nobody hit. So half was given to the next racing days carryover and the other half was given to seed the pools as you have highlighted.

I believe that if the carryover was twice as much on the racing day after the Derby, that there would have been significantly more bet that day resulting in a more similar payout then you believe. I haven't really charted this but in most pick 6 carryovers I have seen the takeout for the day is usually fairly similar to the carryover (thus the bigger the carryover the more that is bet). Likewise I believe a lot less with be bet Tonight with only $300,000 guaranteed then would have been bet if they were giving out the whole pool. The fact that a lone ticket gets the full jackpot might inspire some, but most will consider this a $300,000 carryover and bet accordingly.

jmo.

[River11]

Find it no longer possible for me to grind out profits on win and exacta tickets and need the occasional nice hit of a pick 4,5 or 6 to keep plugging away at this game.
Love um.

[Profesor]

You are absolutely correct,they took our money on derby day to seed a pool for their own benefit,if they had any decency at all they would use their own money to promote a particular bet.

[SG4]

This is copied from CD p6 rules.

20) In the Unique Pick-6, if a single patron ends up with the only winning ticket but has more than one winning wager on that ticket, regardless of how it occurred, that patron will not be eligible for the Unique Pick-6 Jackpot carryover.


Thanks for posting that, now I've got a gripe with some of CD's jackpot wager! That should be changed immediately.



I believe Gulfstream rectified this situation in their rules where if this happened to a ticket holder they would indeed get the full jackpot. Here is the link from GP's rules, which by stating "unique wager" I believe allows a potential late scratch ticket doubling to still result in a full payoff.


http://www.gulfstreampark.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/experimental-rainbow-6-rule-_3_.pdf?sfvrsn=0

[jay68802]

I have to side with SG4 on this. I think the public has shown they like the 20 cent pick 6. Even though it is hard to win the jackpot, we do see jackpots come down even on 20 cent pick 5's, so we know that jackpots do get hit.

I believe that if the carryover was twice as much on the racing day after the Derby, that there would have been significantly more bet that day resulting in a more similar payout then you believe. I haven't really charted this but in most pick 6 carryovers I have seen the takeout for the day is usually fairly similar to the carryover (thus the bigger the carryover the more that is bet). Likewise I believe a lot less with be bet Tonight with only $300,000 guaranteed then would have been bet if they were giving out the whole pool. The fact that a lone ticket gets the full jackpot might inspire some, but most will consider this a $300,000 carryover and bet accordingly.

jmo.

I like the bet also, don't get me wrong on that. The simple fact of the matter is that CDI is taking money from winning tickets in one pool. Putting that money in another pool, so they can have a large pool for people to bet into, thus increasing their handle. Since the start of this pool, CDI has made over 1 million dollars more from takeout on this pool than they would have if they had not used money that should have been paid to the players.

As for the "net takeout", you figured it right, but did not add back in the $300,000.00, that CDI used to fund the pool to begin with. Brings the net takeout up, and a lot.

The players already fund 100% of the pool that they bet into, having them fund another pool with their winnings is basically theft.

[LemonSoupKid]

I'm trying to find the rules on all of these, I see historic posts on the Paulick report and elsewhere that Gulfstream or Churchill or Pimlico, etc. will have mandatory payouts, and they seem randomly disbursed during the Spring or Summer. Is there a threshold value where they just say, ok, the pot is too large, we're going to institute a mandatory payout and start all over again?

Thanks for any insight. Obviously those seem like better days to play the horizontals, if you are interested in such bets.