Justify got new shoes today. [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

Ruffian1

05-16-2018, 07:06 AM

https://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2018/05/horseshoe-kentucky-derby-winner-justify-hoof.html

New kicks with a photo to boot......

Not as extensive as Big Brown's quartercrack but he's still got a lot weighing on this bruised hoof as his journey continues.

Thanks Grits.
Great pics to help people see first hand.

My worry will be the shoe getting sucked off by the sloppy track with no hind nail . I think everything I have seen is as good as they could have done it. And of course, he can win with a blown shoe but... he can also lose because of it. If the track is not real muddy and loses some of the suction it can have, that will help a lot. Lets hope for the best.

Grits

05-16-2018, 08:04 AM

Thanks Grits.
Great pics to help people see first hand.

My worry will be the shoe getting sucked off by the sloppy track with no hind nail . I think everything I have seen is as good as they could have done it. And of course, he can win with a blown shoe but... he can also lose because of it. If the track is not real muddy and loses some of the suction it can have, that will help a lot. Lets hope for the best.

Ruffian, I was waiting for you to read and look at the photo. Still, this was my exact first thought...he could lose this shoe if the track is muddy. If he has any problem in the Preakness, I hope Bob will pull him from the Belmont.

SecretAgentMan

05-16-2018, 08:29 AM

I don't see Justify running in the Belmont if he doesn't win the Preakness.

Ruffian1

05-16-2018, 08:35 AM

Ruffian, I was waiting for you to read and look at the photo. Still, this was my exact first thought...he could lose this shoe if the track is muddy. If he has any problem in the Preakness, I hope Bob will pull him from the Belmont.

I had to run close to 50 or so over Pimlico with a very muddy track and a nail out of the back of a hind shoe over the years. It was about a 80% chance it stayed on which meant I was thinking it was about a 20% chance it would not. Lol.
Then add the probably 2 or 3 out of a hundred that lose one ( not necessarily THAT one) for other reasons like getting stepped on leaving the gate or in close quarters, etc. so the makes it about a 3 out of 4 it will be fine. Of course, that means.... yeah yeah, you know the rest.
That said, I assume Pimlico is deeper these days. So I assume there would be a bit more suction than in my time. Have no idea of how much though, if any.

Lets hope it all goes well.

05-16-2018, 10:06 AM

I had to run close to 50 or so over Pimlico with a very muddy track and a nail out of the back of a hind shoe over the years. It was about a 80% chance it stayed on which meant I was thinking it was about a 20% chance it would not. Lol.
Then add the probably 2 or 3 out of a hundred that lose one ( not necessarily THAT one) for other reasons like getting stepped on leaving the gate or in close quarters, etc. so the makes it about a 3 out of 4 it will be fine. Of course, that means.... yeah yeah, you know the rest.
That said, I assume Pimlico is deeper these days. So I assume there would be a bit more suction than in my time. Have no idea of how much though, if any.

Lets hope it all goes well.

How would that change if the track is sealed?

Ruffian1

05-16-2018, 10:45 AM

How would that change if the track is sealed?

The numbers I posted were on sealed but very muddy, sloppy tracks that were being run on. Pimlico starts back today and it will be very interesting to see what the track is doing. The forecast here is rain everyday but not constant other than today which so far is on and off light rain. The forecast is for about 3 inches between now and Preakness post time . Seems like we will get some everyday. But I also saw where they called for thunderstorms later in the day only, for Saturday. So... a couple of things.

First,( And I know you know Pimlico well CJ but for the benefit of everyone else here) I have to think that the best window to scrape the track was Monday so if that happened, and they rarely skip a scrape for more than a week, the inside should be sweet today. (It poured Monday night and last night.) If not, you know they have not yet done so and hope to get one in before Saturday. If they cannot, the rail would figure to be dead by Saturday. Watching the replays or charts at least if you can't watch replays, will be very helpful IMO.

2nd . Again I know that some know this but for others, Pimlico dries out very fast if it can get some sun which it seems might happen on Saturday. It is on top of a hill ( Old Hilltop) and it always gets a breeze at least and a solid breeze typically. Usually from right to left and right down the straightaways. If that happens, it dries very quickly and as it does, it gets real fast ( at least it used to, pretty sure that hasn't changed). That would help the missing nail in the shoe problem a ton. It is when it is really soaked that the %'s I wrote about earlier come into play. Because they float it when soaked it brings the water to the top and leaves the mud with a little less water in it which makes it have more suction until the majority of the water can squeezed out. It is a small window of time that it is actually more gooey ( about 3 races with sun typically) unless it continually rains and they say that it probably will not do that at this time. Let's watch that.
But... If it gets some sun and a few races over it early in the card that should allow them to put a harrow on it before the Preakness. If they can harrow it for a race or two prior to Justify running, it should be fast and tight, with minimum suction or if they are lucky, no suction at all.

I know that is just enough info to have no idea, but at the same time, at least people know what to look for.
Hope that helps.

Grits

05-16-2018, 10:46 AM

From the article.

Todd Pletcher trainee Audible, who finished third behind Justify in the Derby, was shown before the race training with wall reinforcements on both the inside and outside walls. Farriers can choose to make the patches superficial, as seen on Justify, or the shoes can be nailed through the material.

Brittle or weak hoof walls are often given as the reason for hoof wall reinforcement. Trainers aren't required to disclose the exact extent of an injury or weakness; they may use subjective or ambiguous terms, particularly when referring to the region known as the "heel".This is, now, two of Winstar's TC trail horses that have hoof problems. Why, at some point, can't a trainer/owner make a decision that will help the horse to be comfortable.

It's a fact quartercracks don't come back together. The only thing that heals them is time. Time for the hoof to grow out. .... This sucks.

Secondbest

05-16-2018, 11:36 AM

pandy

05-16-2018, 11:42 AM

From the article.

This is, now, two of Winstar's TC trail horses that have hoof problems. Why, at some point, can't a trainer/owner make a decision that will help the horse to be comfortable.

It's a fact quartercracks don't come back together. The only thing that heals them is time. Time for the hoof to grow out. .... This sucks.

I have to take a closer look at this, but up until now, I thought that I'd be picking him in the Preakness, which has become an easy race for the favorites, but now, I may go against him.

TheGarMan

05-16-2018, 11:47 AM

The numbers I posted were on sealed but very muddy, sloppy tracks that were being run on. Pimlico starts back today and it will be very interesting to see what the track is doing. The forecast here is rain everyday but not constant other than today which so far is on and off light rain. The forecast is for about 3 inches between now and Preakness post time . Seems like we will get some everyday. But I also saw where they called for thunderstorms later in the day only, for Saturday. So... a couple of things.

First,( And I know you know Pimlico well CJ but for the benefit of everyone else here) I have to think that the best window to scrape the track was Monday so if that happened, and they rarely skip a scrape for more than a week, the inside should be sweet today. (It poured Monday night and last night.) If not, you know they have not yet done so and hope to get one in before Saturday. If they cannot, the rail would figure to be dead by Saturday. Watching the replays or charts at least if you can't watch replays, will be very helpful IMO.

2nd . Again I know that some know this but for others, Pimlico dries out very fast if it can get some sun which it seems might happen on Saturday. It is on top of a hill ( Old Hilltop) and it always gets a breeze at least and a solid breeze typically. Usually from right to left and right down the straightaways. If that happens, it dries very quickly and as it does, it gets real fast ( at least it used to, pretty sure that hasn't changed). That would help the missing nail in the shoe problem a ton. It is when it is really soaked that the %'s I wrote about earlier come into play. Because they float it when soaked it brings the water to the top and leaves the mud with a little less water in it which makes it have more suction until the majority of the water can squeezed out. It is a small window of time that it is actually more gooey ( about 3 races with sun typically) unless it continually rains and they say that it probably will not do that at this time. Let's watch that.
But... If it gets some sun and a few races over it early in the card that should allow them to put a harrow on it before the Preakness. If they can harrow it for a race or two prior to Justify running, it should be fast and tight, with minimum suction or if they are lucky, no suction at all.

I know that is just enough info to have no idea, but at the same time, at least people know what to look for.
Hope that helps.

Ruffian, thanks so much for sharing your intimate knowledge on the subject. It is very refreshing to find a person with this much good info who is willing to take the time to share. :ThmbUp:

And Grits, thanks for the initial post. Good stuff here !

Grits

05-16-2018, 12:12 PM

Y'all are certainly welcome for the blog piece. :)

I had to go back in time. I couldn't help myself because it's been years!! All that quartercrack problem.

Honestly, gentlemen, we racing fans/handicappers are a rough, rough bunch. This video title is cruel, yet still, so funny!!

HERE IT IS: Belmont Stakes 2008--Big Brown Craps Out!

:pound::pound::pound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMT9kF2UT-E

Tom

05-16-2018, 12:45 PM

Geez, GRITS, you are a fountain of information this week!
Thanks for the "rest of the story!" :ThmbUp:

GMB@BP

05-16-2018, 12:52 PM

I actually feel really bad for Big Brown and can understand why he had so many issues.

If Justify is headed that way then we may not see him much longer, especially if he loses Saturday.

outofthebox

05-16-2018, 01:23 PM

GRITS
Thanks for the link. I found it very interesting. In my entire life I never thought I'd be reading a blog about horse's hooves on the internet.Learn more about Curtis Burns technique of shoeing problematic horses on Youtube. Type in Polyflex horseshoes.

Secondbest

05-16-2018, 01:55 PM

Learn more about Curtis Burns technique of shoeing problematic horses on Youtube. Type in Polyflex horseshoes.

I will thanks

Ruffian1

05-16-2018, 02:50 PM

Ruffian, thanks so much for sharing your intimate knowledge on the subject. It is very refreshing to find a person with this much good info who is willing to take the time to share. :ThmbUp:

And Grits, thanks for the initial post. Good stuff here !

You are very welcome and thank you for the kind words.

I am happy to share what I learned during my years at the track with customers anytime I can. Hope it helped.

Secondbest

05-16-2018, 03:22 PM

You are very welcome and thank you for the kind words.

I am happy to share what I learned during my years at the track with customers anytime I can. Hope it helped.

It did help. Thanks

Dream_Police

05-16-2018, 03:37 PM

Two built in excuses to keep his Stud Fee.

1.Bad Hoof
2. Bad Track
If he loses then it comes down to how he look in defeat. If he gets trounced then they lose some dollars but if it's close or gets nipped at the wire then you can invoke excuse 1 or 2 and keep the fee HIGH.

papillon

05-16-2018, 04:18 PM

I found this article on hoof bruises

https://equusmagazine.com/lameness/hoof-bruises-happen-29327

I'm not sure if its still bruise or a crack or a crack and a bruise, but I thought the information on hoof bruises in the article was pretty enlightening.

Things that stuck out:

If a bruise is visible the trauma occured weeks or months ago

Main cause is traveling at speed over hard terrain

Muddy surfaces cause most discomfort because mud gets packed in, expands, and pressure builds on the bruise, stone surfaces are less uncomfortable

Several types of bruises, two seemed to fit most closely--

Hoof wall bruise caused and exacerbated by hard surfaces

Heel and bar bruise caused by bearing too much weight on sensitive back tissue

Can a bruise be a compound bruise of 2 types? Can one bruise lead into another by weight shifting?

New shoe or not, it doesn't seem like running in mud at race speed for 9 3/4f is likely to be discomfort-free or that the existing bruise won't be exacerbated.

He weighs something like 1300 lbs, could his weight be part of the problem? That's a lot of weight on a bruise.

I can't imagine he'll loose Saturday, but is he going to come out of it hobbling again?

Seems very murky.

TBH I don't have enough background on shoes to really understand the shoe article, even though I spent 10 years as a kid getting paid to groom horses at the stable in front of my neighborhood. I volunteered to help a rescue center near me last summer with grooming, was so proud the muscle memory of sliding a hand down a horse's leg to raise its hoof and clean it out was like I had never stopped. It's the little things in life.

To the shoe people--does the shoe article mean there is no problem since super-farrier man worked his magic?

Robert Fischer

05-16-2018, 04:28 PM

Not sure what I am looking at.

The white area is the reinforcement/patch? How bad is it without the patch? Is the black area around the patch where they removed bad/cracked hoof or is that how a normal hoof looks?

Blog did a great job. Everything was presented so matter-of-factly that it's hard to understand the seriousness. Guess I wish I had a before and after photo.

http://oi66.tinypic.com/2sbaouo.jpg

SecretAgentMan

05-16-2018, 04:51 PM

After reading everything in here, the question is, is Justify hoof Ok now after all the work they've done on him or should bettors be worried?

clicknow

05-16-2018, 05:08 PM

I actually feel really bad for Big Brown and can understand why he had so many issues.

So much about Big Brown's feet was hidden and covered up (esp. before the race he was supposed to run against Curlin). If that famous quarter crack had been his only problem, but it was not.

Brown didn't just have that famous quarter crack---he only got that before the Belmont, and it had to be left open, laced with wire sutures, to cool, drain and heal. (it's like having your fingernail split vertically). He had only 9 days to train for the Belmont, so they were going to figure out how to rework the wire sutures, re-cover the hoof wall with adhesives., etc. but quarter cracks aren't THAT serious.

(he also arrived to Belmont with run down problems on his hind legs and feet from the Preakness. (this may be because he changed his gait, which is possible since he had pretty bad front feet problems already). )

But before all that, he didn't have the reported quarter cracks, he actually had hoof wall separations on both front feet.

Before the FL Derby they had to remove the heel tissue on the inside heel of his left front, then in FL his right front inside heel was removed and repaired. That is I believe when they put him in the Yasha designer shoees..... with orthopedic "plastic" inserts between his shoes and his hoof, described by the blacksmith as similar to the gasket that holds your truck's windshield in place.....and Big Brown won the FL Derby, the KY Derby and the Preakness in those special orthopedics.

(Dutrow decided to have him re-shod before the Preakness which is why he was wearing bell boots in his track outings, to keep his fresh glue intact. though his shoes were really working just fine).

Watching a still young horse run on 2 damaged feet kept me awake many nights...watching him pound away in full racing mode at top speeds..... Literally held together with wire and screws and patches and synthetic fillers and gaskets...... He literally had "no hoof" to speak of on one of them. Looking at photos of the hoof stress lines on the dorsal walls both horizontal and vertical, inflamed coronary bands, contracted, sheared heels, just literally made me sick. Nobody can tell me that horse wasn't in pain during his campaign.

I'm sure many people didn't really know JUST HOW BAD his situation was as a 3 year old and how many works and races he performed on those feet, all to make a lot of cash for his owners. And yet, so many people bashed that horse.

I jumped for joy when he was retired....because I was worried about him breaking down. Big Brown never deserved to "be owned" by the people like this, but I guess that is the karma of some horses :(

Back to topic: given what BB accomplished on those feet, it's almost laughable that anyone is worrying about Justify's little "heel bruise". Its' like comparing a major reconstructive foot surgery with a hang nail.

GMB@BP

05-16-2018, 05:29 PM

Back to topic: given what BB accomplished on those feet, it's almost laughable that anyone is worrying about Justify's little "heel bruise". Its' like comparing a major reconstructive foot surgery with a hang nail.

I guess my question is there concerns with the foot for this race?

Grits

05-16-2018, 07:23 PM

Papillon and Outofthebox, thanks for the links! So interesting. I watched Ian McKinlay and others for over an hour late this afternoon. Shoeing horses is an exact science and craft. It has to be correct and it has always been amazing to me.

When Big Brown was having so much difficulty Belmont week I was upset. I wanted everyone to leave him alone as there was no way he was fit to run. When my friends and I noted the way he came out of the gate traveling into the first turn, we knew it wasn't gonna happen.

All I could think...he got the last word. Good for him!

clicknow

05-16-2018, 07:58 PM

I guess my question is there concerns with the foot for this race?

No. None at all, unless something really weird happens.

A foot bruise, where a shoe has been made to keep it from contact, is not a problem at all.

There has been no structural damage to the actual integrity of his foot or hoof ---The new shoe will work fine, and he will be fine.

clicknow

05-16-2018, 08:06 PM

Justify also does not seem like a "soft" animal, but we have no way of knowing that. I'm gonna guess he's a hard horse who is unconcerned with things like a bruise.

I have had canines who would wail if you just cut their toenails. Other ones, you could nick the quick and get a massive bleeder, or they would rip a dew claw practically out of their lower leg flesh altogether, or get torn up on a barbed wire fence, and they would keep running around, playing, eating.... like nothin' happened.

MadVindication

05-16-2018, 08:15 PM

I have had canines who would wail if you just cut their toenails. Other ones, you could nick the quick and get a massive bleeder, or they would rip a dew claw practically out of their lower leg flesh altogether, or get torn up on a barbed wire fence, and they would keep running around, playing, eating.... like nothin' happened.

:D I know what you mean. To cut my dogs nails I have to sedate her with trazadone, muzzle her, and hold her head while one vet tech helps hold her and the other gets her nails. I'm sure she'd even bite me with full force to avoid it. She is a sensitive one. Used to have a dog who was the type where just a walk on side walks kept them short, that was nice.

Do you run a kennel or train dogs of some type?

clicknow

05-16-2018, 08:41 PM

Sorry, I was wrong about the 3/4 shoe.

Per Baffert Justify has been re-shod in a conventional full shoe with Equilox for the Preakness.

He went on and on, as you know, Baffert can be a bit "effusive" at times. :) I like one-sentence trainer speak myself.

Dream_Police

05-17-2018, 09:00 AM

I guess my question after seeing that photo is, is he missing a large portion of that side of his hoof or is that "patch" covering it up, because that is a large chunk if he is.

clicknow

05-17-2018, 10:37 AM

I guess my question after seeing that photo is, is he missing a large portion of that side of his hoof or is that "patch" covering it up, because that is a large chunk if he is.

He has / had bruising in his HEEL. Per his trainer.

There are different kinds of bruises, in the wall, in the sole, in the toe, in the heel.

Look, some horses are big babies and will not want to put weight on a bruised heel. It really depends on the animal. Like any kind of bruise, like on yourself, there is a certain amount of inflammation. We are not privy to the exact nature of his bruise or even how he got it. |||

Bruises do not heal up overnight. But world class racing barns have access to better veterinary magic than your trail horse, so.......

Per Baffert, it has been cleared up, the 3/4 shoe is off and he is back in full shoes, and horse is working again fine, blah blah blah. The Equilox is for protection.

He is not missing part of his hoof.

it's anybody's guess if this will affect his running after the first 1/2 or mile. We have no way of knowing this.

clicknow

05-17-2018, 10:59 AM

Again, we are back to "trusting" the trainer's explanation and a certain amount of transparency of information given to the bettor/fan.

I have no other resource than to depend on that. I mean, originally we were told "scratches, or whatever". Maybe trainer had not had a good look yet.

After Justify tested the soggy track at Pimlico today, Baffert said: "I think it's behind us. He had that one day, but then after that he's been really good on it. I'm not really worried about it."

I know for a fact that heel bruises don't heal up in "one day", however, we also do not know how bad it was, or if justify has had heel injuries BEFORE he ran in the Derby, do we? Maybe he had one in the past, and it just was a weak spot that tends to get reinjured. He has white feet, so...

Welcome any other thoughts but my final take on this is that Baffert considers this VERY MINOR.

Grits

05-17-2018, 11:03 AM

https://www.xbtv.com/video/justify/justify-galloped-at-pimlico-race-course-on-may-17th-2018/

Robert Fischer

05-17-2018, 12:18 PM

https://www.xbtv.com/video/justify/justify-galloped-at-pimlico-race-course-on-may-17th-2018/

He looks like Justify again

Ruffian1

05-17-2018, 12:20 PM

https://www.xbtv.com/video/justify/justify-galloped-at-pimlico-race-course-on-may-17th-2018/

All he was doing was looking for a fight.

The last thing on his mind was that hoof.

Thanks Grits.

Grits

05-17-2018, 12:38 PM

All he was doing was looking for a fight.

The last thing on his mind was that hoof.

Thanks Grits.

Had you not checked in soon I was gonna message you!

Thank you!! ;)

MadVindication

05-17-2018, 12:52 PM

No hell way, I'm not gonna bet against Justify because of a hoof. I'm not into reaching for reasons. That would be silly. I'm going to modestly bet against because it's fun and I like gambling odds. Any other reason is false.

clicknow

05-17-2018, 04:59 PM

No hell way, I'm not gonna bet against Justify because of a hoof.

If a sore hoof makes the horse "off in back", I would. :)

You are never looking at one body part. That is a mistake because of biomechanics.

(Even as humans we know this. I could prove to you with a gait analysis, lets say, when my heel right heel is burning, or my plantar fasciatis in one foot starts acting up a bit.)

Easiest way to express this is how Chiropractors know what shoulder a woman carries her shoulder bag/purse on, as SOON as she walks thru the door, carrying nothing at all.

Horses can be off and still win races. It happens every day. esp. if they are good athletes. It's a call you have to make.

sammy the sage

05-17-2018, 08:07 PM

All I know is THAT we were TOLD Arrogate was fine...when he WASN'T...obviously...AFTER the fact...so who the hell knows....odds dictate taking a shot against here...we know he's the best horse....BUT....

Tread

05-17-2018, 08:12 PM

The numbers I posted were on sealed but very muddy, sloppy tracks that were being run on. Pimlico starts back today and it will be very interesting to see what the track is doing. The forecast here is rain everyday but not constant other than today which so far is on and off light rain. The forecast is for about 3 inches between now and Preakness post time . Seems like we will get some everyday. But I also saw where they called for thunderstorms later in the day only, for Saturday. So... a couple of things.

First,( And I know you know Pimlico well CJ but for the benefit of everyone else here) I have to think that the best window to scrape the track was Monday so if that happened, and they rarely skip a scrape for more than a week, the inside should be sweet today. (It poured Monday night and last night.) If not, you know they have not yet done so and hope to get one in before Saturday. If they cannot, the rail would figure to be dead by Saturday. Watching the replays or charts at least if you can't watch replays, will be very helpful IMO.

2nd . Again I know that some know this but for others, Pimlico dries out very fast if it can get some sun which it seems might happen on Saturday. It is on top of a hill ( Old Hilltop) and it always gets a breeze at least and a solid breeze typically. Usually from right to left and right down the straightaways. If that happens, it dries very quickly and as it does, it gets real fast ( at least it used to, pretty sure that hasn't changed). That would help the missing nail in the shoe problem a ton. It is when it is really soaked that the %'s I wrote about earlier come into play. Because they float it when soaked it brings the water to the top and leaves the mud with a little less water in it which makes it have more suction until the majority of the water can squeezed out. It is a small window of time that it is actually more gooey ( about 3 races with sun typically) unless it continually rains and they say that it probably will not do that at this time. Let's watch that.
But... If it gets some sun and a few races over it early in the card that should allow them to put a harrow on it before the Preakness. If they can harrow it for a race or two prior to Justify running, it should be fast and tight, with minimum suction or if they are lucky, no suction at all.

I know that is just enough info to have no idea, but at the same time, at least people know what to look for.
Hope that helps.

The rail was absolutely terrible today, so I'm not sure if you are suggesting it can get worse than it already is by Saturday, but that would be quite a feat.