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Pensacola Pete
05-11-2018, 03:25 PM
I just watched the 5th at Woodbine. The winner:

At off: 9/5
On far turn when battling another horse for the lead: 3/2
10 seconds after the race ended, with the horse winning easily: 6/5

Except that it wasn't CRW or simulcast money. The last flash had exactly $1,500 going in on #7 and no other money bet on any other horse.

I've sent the screen captures to UnitedTote, to Woodbine, to the Ontario Jockey Club, and to the Toronto Globe.

Any takers that nothing happens?

Eff this. I'm tired of money coming in after the race has been decided, and now I have the proof.

Tom
05-11-2018, 04:07 PM
Can you post the screen shot here?
That would seem to be strong evidence of past-posting.

lamboguy
05-11-2018, 04:09 PM
I just watched the 5th at Woodbine. The winner:

At off: 9/5
On far turn when battling another horse for the lead: 3/2
10 seconds after the race ended, with the horse winning easily: 6/5

Except that it wasn't CRW or simulcast money. The last flash had exactly $1,500 going in on #7 and no other money bet on any other horse.

I've sent the screen captures to UnitedTote, to Woodbine, to the Ontario Jockey Club, and to the Toronto Globe.

Any takers that nothing happens?

Eff this. I'm tired of money coming in after the race has been decided, and now I have the proof.you make a very compelling argument. but this is the way the game is, if you don't like what you see, you have the appropriate action under the circumstances.

welcome to horse race wagering

lamboguy
05-11-2018, 04:10 PM
Can you post the screen shot here?
That would seem to be strong evidence of past-posting.he doesn't have to post it for me to see, i know there is plenty of it going on.

thaskalos
05-11-2018, 04:38 PM
How can it be? Haven't several of our "well-connected" posters here told us that past-posting is an IMPOSSIBILITY? :confused:

PaceAdvantage
05-11-2018, 04:39 PM
How can it be? Haven't several of our "well-connected" posters here told us that past-posting is an IMPOSSIBILITY? :confused:So far, no evidence.

PaceAdvantage
05-11-2018, 04:40 PM
he doesn't have to post it for me to see, i know there is plenty of it going on.I'm still waiting for your video

PaceAdvantage
05-11-2018, 04:40 PM
I just watched the 5th at Woodbine. The winner:

At off: 9/5
On far turn when battling another horse for the lead: 3/2
10 seconds after the race ended, with the horse winning easily: 6/5

Except that it wasn't CRW or simulcast money. The last flash had exactly $1,500 going in on #7 and no other money bet on any other horse.

I've sent the screen captures to UnitedTote, to Woodbine, to the Ontario Jockey Club, and to the Toronto Globe.

Any takers that nothing happens?

Eff this. I'm tired of money coming in after the race has been decided, and now I have the proof.Put the evidence up here. We'd all like to see it.

Inner Dirt
05-11-2018, 04:43 PM
How often are the pools updated these days? Could it be the last update occurs after they leave the gate?

thaskalos
05-11-2018, 04:43 PM
So far, no evidence.

I've already seen cases where the winning horse's odds continue to decline even after the horse crosses the finish line...and so have you. Should it ever take more than a minute for the pre-race odds to adjust themselves?

PaceAdvantage
05-11-2018, 04:45 PM
We're talking the racing industry.

Yes, it could be past posting, because, well, it's the racing industry...no confidence in high tech security.

On the other hand, yes, it could be a huge delay, because, well, it's the racing industry...no confidence on speedy updates using the latest hardware/software.

thaskalos
05-11-2018, 04:50 PM
We're talking the racing industry.

Yes, it could be past posting, because, well, it's the racing industry...no confidence in high tech security.

On the other hand, yes, it could be a huge delay, because, well, it's the racing industry...no confidence on speedy updates using the latest hardware/software.

"Well...it's the horse racing industry" is the sort of convenient excuse that the serious horseplayer should no longer tolerate...IMO.

sjk
05-11-2018, 05:18 PM
I bet a horse yesterday that was 9-2 as they started loading, 7-2 crossing the finish line, went to 9-5 several minutes later and paid $5.80.

I don't believe it is past posting but it may put off betting LaD.

Tom
05-11-2018, 05:36 PM
"Well...it's the horse racing industry" is the sort of convenient excuse that the serious horseplayer should no longer tolerate...IMO.

Is it unreasonable to think that someone who is an expert in the high tech stuff that racing uses has found a way to exploit it?

I would like to see evidence of the racing industry's due diligence on the matter. Do they have a Failure Mode Analysis they could share with their customers?

Proving your security to your customers would seem to me to be a very reasonable request. Not doing so when rumors are flying would seem to be saying "Shut up and Bet!"

AlsoEligible
05-11-2018, 05:41 PM
Should note that Amtote is the provider for Woodbine, not United Tote. May want to send it to them as well.

thaskalos
05-11-2018, 06:09 PM
Is it unreasonable to think that someone who is an expert in the high tech stuff that racing uses has found a way to exploit it?

I would like to see evidence of the racing industry's due diligence on the matter. Do they have a Failure Mode Analysis they could share with their customers?

Proving your security to your customers would seem to me to be a very reasonable request. Not doing so when rumors are flying would seem to be saying "Shut up and Bet!"

"Shut up and bet...or, there is the door" has been the racing industry's battle cry for quite a while now. They must think that they have more business than they can handle. :ThmbUp:

Dave Schwartz
05-11-2018, 06:49 PM
How can it be? Haven't several of our "well-connected" posters here told us that past-posting is an IMPOSSIBILITY? :confused:


Nothing is impossible.

But it is not the whales' business model as some people here seem to think.

JustRalph
05-11-2018, 07:00 PM
"Shut up and bet...or, there is the door" has been the racing industry's battle cry for quite a while now. They must think that they have more business than they can handle. :ThmbUp:

Ding! They don’t care.......

I only have one question. If you could past post, why that horse? Why not something that paid more?

But then again, if I want to go unnoticed that’s probably the perfect horse

Pete, spend your time tonight thinking about all the other things you could do with your racing money.......it’s liberating :ThmbUp:

thaskalos
05-11-2018, 07:14 PM
Nothing is impossible.

But it is not the whales' business model as some people here seem to think.

It makes no difference if the whales are doing it, or if it's being done by someone else. When the odds change AFTER the horses cross the finish line...then it's a given that the customers will harbor dark suspicions about the goings-on in the game. It shouldn't take a minute and a half to process these "late wagers", in today's electronic age.

TiffaniO
05-11-2018, 07:28 PM
I just watched the 5th at Woodbine. The winner:

At off: 9/5
On far turn when battling another horse for the lead: 3/2
10 seconds after the race ended, with the horse winning easily: 6/5

Except that it wasn't CRW or simulcast money. The last flash had exactly $1,500 going in on #7 and no other money bet on any other horse.

I've sent the screen captures to UnitedTote, to Woodbine, to the Ontario Jockey Club, and to the Toronto Globe.

Any takers that nothing happens?

Eff this. I'm tired of money coming in after the race has been decided, and now I have the proof.

Well you might want to go back and watch the replay.

As my pics prove he was 3/2 as he went in the gate.

He was 6/5 a few strides out of the gate. Definitely less than 5 seconds into the race, no where near the far turn as claimed.

This is why no one takes complaints seriously. Back it up with facts.

PaceAdvantage
05-11-2018, 07:42 PM
And some people wonder why I doubt most if not all of these claims.

Then again, I guess Tiffani could be a PhotoShop master...

TiffaniO
05-11-2018, 07:50 PM
And some people wonder why I doubt most if not all of these claims.

Then again, I guess Tiffani could be a PhotoShop master...

No Pace... I’m just a Witch... hehe

JustRalph
05-11-2018, 07:52 PM
And some people wonder why I doubt most if not all of these claims.

Then again, I guess Tiffani could be a PhotoShop master...

Yep, but the results are basically the same. He ended up with 5.80

Was that an appropriate expectation? How do you handicap something you can’t see........like whether the horse is going to go up or down in the odds....after the bell

TiffaniO
05-11-2018, 07:54 PM
Yep, but the results are basically the same. He ended up with 5.80

Was that an appropriate expectation? How do you handicap something you can’t see........like whether the horse is going to go up or down in the odds....after the bell

The horse looked 2/5 and should’ve paid $2.80 if you are objective at all...

Mulerider
05-11-2018, 08:00 PM
And some people wonder why I doubt most if not all of these claims.

Then again, I guess Tiffani could be a PhotoShop master...

I just watched it on RTN. The winner was 3/2 loading. When the odds first appeared on the screen about 8 strides out of the gate (replacing a section at the bottom that described the race conditions) he was at 6/5, and that never changed throughout the race.

Hambletonian
05-11-2018, 08:50 PM
I am not saying what the OP is claiming is impossible.

However, I think one of the issues is that most of the folks here cut their teeth at a time when the odds at a minute to so to post for any major circuit was pretty much what the horses paid.

Unless you were at a harness track, of course, where it seemed that half the pool or more came in very late.

Today, every major circuit is like Monticello Raceway was in my youth. it was impossible to value handicap there back then because you could only guess at what the final odds would be. A hundred dollar win bet could take a horse from 4-1 to 9-5. It was part of handicapping...guessing the off prices.

On the other hand, it is pretty clear that giving the bettors a fair and honest shot is not one of the industry's top priorities in this day and age.

Track Phantom
05-11-2018, 09:17 PM
You know why it is NOT past posting? Because if someone could bet 5-10 seconds after the gate opened, wouldn't they be betting quarterhorses? I would be.

Fox
05-11-2018, 09:20 PM
I just watched the 5th at Woodbine. The winner:

At off: 9/5
On far turn when battling another horse for the lead: 3/2
10 seconds after the race ended, with the horse winning easily: 6/5

Except that it wasn't CRW or simulcast money. The last flash had exactly $1,500 going in on #7 and no other money bet on any other horse.

I've sent the screen captures to UnitedTote, to Woodbine, to the Ontario Jockey Club, and to the Toronto Globe.

Any takers that nothing happens?

Eff this. I'm tired of money coming in after the race has been decided, and now I have the proof.

Why in God’s name would you not post the screen shots here if you actually had them? Makes no sense other than you’re likely full of shit.

Tom
05-11-2018, 10:16 PM
No Pace... I’m just a Witch... hehe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyvRyxpvDi8

PaceAdvantage
05-11-2018, 11:05 PM
Why in God’s name would you not post the screen shots here if you actually had them? Makes no sense other than you’re likely full of shit.No need to get hostile about it. You need to learn the art of subtlety.

jay68802
05-11-2018, 11:08 PM
No need to get hostile about it. You need to learn the art of subtlety.

And this by the "master" at subtlety.

TiffaniO
05-11-2018, 11:09 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyvRyxpvDi8

I’m more like Samantha from Bewitched. I wiggle my nose and the odds on the screen changes.

That’s how I hit the Derby... Mendelssohn actually won but I wiggled my nose and now he’s last lol

PaceAdvantage
05-11-2018, 11:19 PM
And this by the "master" at subtlety.There are definitely times when subtlety is not the right call..this was not one of those times, says the master.

jay68802
05-11-2018, 11:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7blkui3nQc

Dave Schwartz
05-12-2018, 12:16 AM
It makes no difference if the whales are doing it, or if it's being done by someone else. When the odds change AFTER the horses cross the finish line...then it's a given that the customers will harbor dark suspicions about the goings-on in the game. It shouldn't take a minute and a half to process these "late wagers", in today's electronic age.

Oh, no argument from me about that.

I said what I said because it seems that people think that is how the whales win. If that were the case, they would not need all the researchers and staff that they have.

Do I think there is some past posting? Absolutely.

If for no other reason that the nature of man is to find a way to steal. And there is always a way. (Although today's security measures - especially in handling physical money - are pretty tight. Ironically, it is the back doors that people seem to exploit.)

But stealing a few bucks here and there is one thing and stealing millions a few bucks at a time is completely another story.

SG4
05-12-2018, 09:53 AM
Anyone catch this story about the lottery being rigged? I want to believe past-posting is not a large scale problem, but it's hard to have confidence in anything when you see things like this.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/03/magazine/money-issue-iowa-lottery-fraud-mystery.html

Pensacola Pete
05-12-2018, 03:58 PM
A man on the HTR forum, who works with one of the groups that pays for a direct tote link, told me that yes indeed the $1,500 bet did come in, and that it was the only bet that registered at the end. However, the bet was actually made with a few seconds to off time, and it came in with several other bets from that source.

The man explained it to me: United and the other hubs have been having problems with some wannabe kid-hackers spoofing big bets. The bets show up in the pools, but they don't pass an integrity check --- some sort of double-verification --- and they're removed from the pool before the final results are in. Other bets, which are larger than a certain amount (he said it varies from track to track, but is usually either $500 or $1,000), don't even show up in the pool until they've passed the verification check, so that the odds don't skew. Once the bets have passed the double-check and been determined to be legitimate, they're added to the pool. The $1,500 bet in question came from one of the sources that has had many problems with spoofed bets, and it was easily the largest bet at that track for that race. It was verified by the system, and then due to its relatively large size (for that source), some operator or supervisor manually verified its integrity. At that point it was added --- which happened to be after the race just finished.

The man told me that this will explain why sometimes you see large bets show up at the end, and also why it appears the money was taken out of the race after it ended. It isn't past posting. It's large bets that need to be verified and that are usually correct (which causes a delay) but sometimes spoofed (which means they didn't really exist and need to be removed).

The man also said that there have been at least ten known instances in the past ten years in which flagrant past-posting has occurred. All were patched/fixed when discovered. The "best" one for those who exploit past-posting was for 10 days in 2015: it was possible to get a bet in on Australian racing (the North America pools hosted by Woodbine) up to 15 seconds after the race went off. This was supposedly due to a lazy (possibly Sky Racing) employee who didn't send the "STOP" signal to North America soon enough.

Take it for what you wish. I still believe that past posting happens, but at least some of the weird money makes a little more sense.

TiffaniO
05-12-2018, 04:11 PM
A man on the HTR forum, who works with one of the groups that pays for a direct tote link, told me that yes indeed the $1,500 bet did come in, and that it was the only bet that registered at the end. However, the bet was actually made with a few seconds to off time, and it came in with several other bets from that source.

The man explained it to me: United and the other hubs have been having problems with some wannabe kid-hackers spoofing big bets. The bets show up in the pools, but they don't pass an integrity check --- some sort of double-verification --- and they're removed from the pool before the final results are in. Other bets, which are larger than a certain amount (he said it varies from track to track, but is usually either $500 or $1,000), don't even show up in the pool until they've passed the verification check, so that the odds don't skew. Once the bets have passed the double-check and been determined to be legitimate, they're added to the pool. The $1,500 bet in question came from one of the sources that has had many problems with spoofed bets, and it was easily the largest bet at that track for that race. It was verified by the system, and then due to its relatively large size (for that source), some operator or supervisor manually verified its integrity. At that point it was added --- which happened to be after the race just finished.

The man told me that this will explain why sometimes you see large bets show up at the end, and also why it appears the money was taken out of the race after it ended. It isn't past posting. It's large bets that need to be verified and that are usually correct (which causes a delay) but sometimes spoofed (which means they didn't really exist and need to be removed).

The man also said that there have been at least ten known instances in the past ten years in which flagrant past-posting has occurred. All were patched/fixed when discovered. The "best" one for those who exploit past-posting was for 10 days in 2015: it was possible to get a bet in on Australian racing (the North America pools hosted by Woodbine) up to 15 seconds after the race went off. This was supposedly due to a lazy (possibly Sky Racing) employee who didn't send the "STOP" signal to North America soon enough.

Take it for what you wish. I still believe that past posting happens, but at least some of the weird money makes a little more sense.

Good info... but my question is... why did you say he went off 9/5, went to 3/2 on far turn and ended 6/5 when it obviously wasn’t the case?

jocko699
05-12-2018, 04:36 PM
Good info... but my question is... why did you say he went off 9/5, went to 3/2 on far turn and ended 6/5 when it obviously wasn’t the case?


I agree. I re-watched the race on RTN and saw the same thing, 3/2 to 6/5, and didn't think anything of it.

Franco Santiago
05-12-2018, 05:30 PM
I agree. I re-watched the race on RTN and saw the same thing, 3/2 to 6/5, and didn't think anything of it.

Because we see what we look for.

Do this: look around the room you are in now and find everything that is red. Do it for 10 seconds.

After you are done scroll down.

















































Now list everything that is yellow. You probably can't remember too much. That is because you were looking for red. Same principle applies to what happened to the OP.

Andy Asaro
05-12-2018, 05:31 PM
7th at Belmont

https://twitter.com/Pullthepocket/status/995413471578808320

TiffaniO
05-12-2018, 06:45 PM
7th at Belmont

https://twitter.com/Pullthepocket/status/995413471578808320

He was 11-1 at post and went to 10.90-1 within 12
Seconds of the race starting... hardly time for past posters to get their bets in and appearing on an “antiquated” system, right?

**Yawn**

Denny
05-12-2018, 06:59 PM
People are starting to get a little crazy with this. Its overblown.
Yawning too.

lamboguy
05-12-2018, 07:00 PM
A man on the HTR forum, who works with one of the groups that pays for a direct tote link, told me that yes indeed the $1,500 bet did come in, and that it was the only bet that registered at the end. However, the bet was actually made with a few seconds to off time, and it came in with several other bets from that source.

The man explained it to me: United and the other hubs have been having problems with some wannabe kid-hackers spoofing big bets. The bets show up in the pools, but they don't pass an integrity check --- some sort of double-verification --- and they're removed from the pool before the final results are in. Other bets, which are larger than a certain amount (he said it varies from track to track, but is usually either $500 or $1,000), don't even show up in the pool until they've passed the verification check, so that the odds don't skew. Once the bets have passed the double-check and been determined to be legitimate, they're added to the pool. The $1,500 bet in question came from one of the sources that has had many problems with spoofed bets, and it was easily the largest bet at that track for that race. It was verified by the system, and then due to its relatively large size (for that source), some operator or supervisor manually verified its integrity. At that point it was added --- which happened to be after the race just finished.

The man told me that this will explain why sometimes you see large bets show up at the end, and also why it appears the money was taken out of the race after it ended. It isn't past posting. It's large bets that need to be verified and that are usually correct (which causes a delay) but sometimes spoofed (which means they didn't really exist and need to be removed).

The man also said that there have been at least ten known instances in the past ten years in which flagrant past-posting has occurred. All were patched/fixed when discovered. The "best" one for those who exploit past-posting was for 10 days in 2015: it was possible to get a bet in on Australian racing (the North America pools hosted by Woodbine) up to 15 seconds after the race went off. This was supposedly due to a lazy (possibly Sky Racing) employee who didn't send the "STOP" signal to North America soon enough.

Take it for what you wish. I still believe that past posting happens, but at least some of the weird money makes a little more sense.in my world, that is a very tough explanation to swallow. it sounds so bizarre to me that it would be a tough explanation to make up. in any event, my head is spinning trying to follow the explanation! rock on baby

TiffaniO
05-12-2018, 07:01 PM
People are starting to get a little crazy with this. Its overblown.
Yawning too.

I actually enjoy taking 15 seconds to watch the beginning of the replay and realize who the Tin Foil Hats are.

Dave Schwartz
05-12-2018, 08:21 PM
in my world, that is a very tough explanation to swallow. it sounds so bizarre to me that it would be a tough explanation to make up. in any event, my head is spinning trying to follow the explanation! rock on baby

Actually, I buy it, Lambo.

However, as many of us have said ad nauseum, this is not an acceptable state for racing to be in.

1. No bet should show on the tote board until it is accepted.

2. No updates to the tote board should be permitted once the race begins (i.e. gate opens).



For those who are upset at the complainers... IMHO, they have a lot to complain about. The integrity of the game is not being maintained by those who we are forced to trust.

Even if everything is 100% correct and honest, it does not LOOK or FEEL correct to a significant part of the audience.

Certainly not to anyone with the horse racing intellect of the people here.


Just my opinion.

Dave Schwartz

Andy Asaro
05-12-2018, 08:28 PM
Actually, I buy it, Lambo.

However, as many of us have said ad nauseum, this is not an acceptable state for racing to be in.

1. No bet should show on the tote board until it is accepted.

2. No updates to the tote board should be permitted once the race begins (i.e. gate opens).



For those who are upset at the complainers... IMHO, they have a lot to complain about. The integrity of the game is not being maintained by those who we are forced to trust.

Even if everything is 100% correct and honest, it does not LOOK or FEEL correct to a significant part of the audience.

Certainly not to anyone with the horse racing intellect of the people here.


Just my opinion.

Dave Schwartz

Amen. The example I gave earlier wasn't necessarily a betting after the gates opened thing but the odds did go from 16-1 to 10 after I put in the bet which was a couple minutes to post. Then, when they were running I see 10-1. That's a big impact at a major track and a lot less on a win bet. And you would no better than me but I haven't seen any real upgrades in the tote system in years.

thaskalos
05-12-2018, 11:08 PM
Actually, I buy it, Lambo.

However, as many of us have said ad nauseum, this is not an acceptable state for racing to be in.

1. No bet should show on the tote board until it is accepted.

2. No updates to the tote board should be permitted once the race begins (i.e. gate opens).



For those who are upset at the complainers... IMHO, they have a lot to complain about. The integrity of the game is not being maintained by those who we are forced to trust.

Even if everything is 100% correct and honest, it does not LOOK or FEEL correct to a significant part of the audience.

Certainly not to anyone with the horse racing intellect of the people here.


Just my opinion.

Dave Schwartz

Hey...this could be taken TWO ways. :)

Fox
05-12-2018, 11:18 PM
I’m still waiting for the OP to post the “screen captures”

Track Phantom
05-13-2018, 12:05 AM
I believe the complaints are legitimate but the culprit is misidentified. I don't believe it is past posting. I believe all of the money is coming in before the race starts. The issue is the late money being bet is way too smart. I have no idea why it is that way other than it is possible the "smart, late money" has always been more accurate and more precise but there is far less casual money to dilute it.

When I started in the mid '80's I don't remember this being a thing. You actually hoped your horse was dead on the board as it was 50/50 whether the "public" money was important. Now when you see a horse cold on the board, that makes sense on paper, it is much more often than not a toss.

In most cases, the upsets are horses still overbet (should be 15-1 and actually on the board at 8-1) or complete puzzlers that you can't find with normal handicapping.

I have no problem with others outhandicapping and outbetting me. It just feels like it happens far too often.

TiffaniO
05-13-2018, 11:52 AM
For those who are upset at the complainers... IMHO, they have a lot to complain about. The integrity of the game is not being maintained by those who we are forced to trust.

Even if everything is 100% correct and honest, it does not LOOK or FEEL correct to a significant part of the audience.

Certainly not to anyone with the horse racing intellect of the people here.


Just my opinion.

Dave Schwartz

Complaining about legit things are just fine. It’s the false statements like “this Horse went from 9-5 to 6-5 on the far turn” or posting on twitter that the horse went from 16-1 to 10-1 after the race began that turns people off. It took me 15 seconds to watch the beginning of each replay to prove their statements to be false.

Before making false statements, at least go back and watch the replay to see if you are correct before making those statements.

lamboguy
05-13-2018, 01:25 PM
Actually, I buy it, Lambo.

However, as many of us have said ad nauseum, this is not an acceptable state for racing to be in.

1. No bet should show on the tote board until it is accepted.

2. No updates to the tote board should be permitted once the race begins (i.e. gate opens).



For those who are upset at the complainers... IMHO, they have a lot to complain about. The integrity of the game is not being maintained by those who we are forced to trust.

Even if everything is 100% correct and honest, it does not LOOK or FEEL correct to a significant part of the audience.

Certainly not to anyone with the horse racing intellect of the people here.


Just my opinion.

Dave Schwartzi am a self-admitted pari-mutuel past poster from 25 years ago. i dealt with race tracks that actually welcomed my action. its pretty tough for me to believe anything other than all these odds changes are past posting. i watched 80-1 shots in Belmont at the gate win and pay $13.
i was in Suffolk downs where the whole place was occupied by people in the self-betting machines and mutual windows calling the break. it lasted for 2 years until the guy that had the column Looking through the Binoculars wrote about it in the Daily News or The Post, whichever one he worked for. they made Suffolk shut betting off with 2 minutes to post. then they got stung from other places and closed betting off early from their own end. New York never welcomed past posting, but other places like Suffolk, could care less what you do there as long as they got their cut.

Dave Schwartz
05-13-2018, 01:45 PM
i am a self-admitted pari-mutuel past poster from 25 years ago. i dealt with race tracks that actually welcomed my action. its pretty tough for me to believe anything other than all these odds changes are past posting. i watched 80-1 shots in Belmont at the gate win and pay $13.
i was in Suffolk downs where the whole place was occupied by people in the self-betting machines and mutual windows calling the break. it lasted for 2 years until the guy that had the column Looking through the Binoculars wrote about it in the Daily News or The Post, whichever one he worked for. they made Suffolk shut betting off with 2 minutes to post. then they got stung from other places and closed betting off early from their own end. New York never welcomed past posting, but other places like Suffolk, could care less what you do there as long as they got their cut.

"ALL" is a pretty big word.

That would mean about 3 races out of 4 at almost every track are being hugely past-posted.

If you believe the game is this rigged, why would you ever make another bet?


Also, why would these great and large whale teams have so many employees if all they need is the software and a few guys to pull the trigger?

lamboguy
05-13-2018, 04:05 PM
"ALL" is a pretty big word.

That would mean about 3 races out of 4 at almost every track are being hugely past-posted.

If you believe the game is this rigged, why would you ever make another bet?


Also, why would these great and large whale teams have so many employees if all they need is the software and a few guys to pull the trigger?i never said its the whales that are past posting, but between the whales and the past poster's what chance do you have?


my wagering consists of first time starters that are way above my odds model, as luck would have it i had one today in Miami, the horse grabbed the lead and only went down form 2-1 to 9/5 with a big lead out of the gate. the other form of wagering i do is minus pool betting, meaning i know my price before the race starts. once in awhile i go against the money and am subject to the gate punchers taking me down.

AskinHaskin
05-14-2018, 01:27 AM
So lets get this straight...


In a business/game where any mutuel clerk who past-posted at Podunkville Downs in the 1960's or 1970's was so often caught and became the subject of a tiny, scandalous story in DRF, now it is believed that some lucky people (never you) are past-posting on just about every race on every card, and never being caught??

Surely some even attribute the apparent change to the extreme lack of DRF editorial material in modern times.

Technology is far more advanced in 2018 than it ever was in the 1960's or 1970's and you almost never see word one written about Joe Schmoe, selling at the clubhouse bar at window #263, who past-posted when some steward forgot to sound the bell to stop wagering.

And you gullible people are buying hook, line and sinker the story that somebody somewhere is cheating - but it's never you.

(pay no thought to the obvious reality that post time in the 1970's found well over 90% of all wagers already tabulated on the toteboard and that, in 2018, that number is much nearer to 15% of all wagering) (making it muuuuuuuuuuuuuuch easier to jumble the final odds with normal wagers being added by machine after the race starts even though they were all entered before the bell)

Perhaps The Drexel Boys are all out of prison and back in the saddle again, this time having perfected a fully stealth, get-rich-quick scheme at your expense. They having now learned that it is unwise to bet on longshots, and that the surefire cure for that is to pound-down any live runner on the far turn (uh, in this modern world where the odds are visible to all ON that far turn?) to where he no longer qualifies as a 'longshot'.

If you're that gullible, you should probably be spending your Sunday's in church instead of with your favorite past-posting mutuel clerks. In church they even let you donate your money to the ruse, but without making you see any odds change that may cause you to become uneasy about the whole scene.


Now how can you collectively be that gullible ???

BCOURTNEY
05-14-2018, 01:49 AM
A man on the HTR forum, who works with one of the groups that pays for a direct tote link, told me that yes indeed the $1,500 bet did come in, and that it was the only bet that registered at the end. However, the bet was actually made with a few seconds to off time, and it came in with several other bets from that source.

The man explained it to me: United and the other hubs have been having problems with some wannabe kid-hackers spoofing big bets. The bets show up in the pools, but they don't pass an integrity check --- some sort of double-verification --- and they're removed from the pool before the final results are in. Other bets, which are larger than a certain amount (he said it varies from track to track, but is usually either $500 or $1,000), don't even show up in the pool until they've passed the verification check, so that the odds don't skew. Once the bets have passed the double-check and been determined to be legitimate, they're added to the pool. The $1,500 bet in question came from one of the sources that has had many problems with spoofed bets, and it was easily the largest bet at that track for that race. It was verified by the system, and then due to its relatively large size (for that source), some operator or supervisor manually verified its integrity. At that point it was added --- which happened to be after the race just finished.

The man told me that this will explain why sometimes you see large bets show up at the end, and also why it appears the money was taken out of the race after it ended. It isn't past posting. It's large bets that need to be verified and that are usually correct (which causes a delay) but sometimes spoofed (which means they didn't really exist and need to be removed).

The man also said that there have been at least ten known instances in the past ten years in which flagrant past-posting has occurred. All were patched/fixed when discovered. The "best" one for those who exploit past-posting was for 10 days in 2015: it was possible to get a bet in on Australian racing (the North America pools hosted by Woodbine) up to 15 seconds after the race went off. This was supposedly due to a lazy (possibly Sky Racing) employee who didn't send the "STOP" signal to North America soon enough.

Take it for what you wish. I still believe that past posting happens, but at least some of the weird money makes a little more sense.


These companies continue to use non-stateful protocols. So they will remain prone to security breaches until that is directly addressed at the protocol level, relying on digital signature techniques (slow) versus solving the problem the right way then the tote update times suffer. Millennial and/or outsourced technical team problem now and it will never get fixed, all the Gen X'ers that wrote these systems are dead, retired or working directly with syndicates to exploit them, haha.

Maybe the exploit that is happening is like what was happening on Wall Street a few years back when a couple of programmers realized by posting buy and sell orders in a particular way they could get their purchases to effect the board prices. So these exploits would be committing sums of money to certain horses and then canceling bets or have the bets unrealized by the system when posting the odds, so that the posted odds represent funds finally committed to each horse, based on this story one should ask the tote companies.. are the odds displayed offered are for transactions that have been received (promised) into the pools or both received and also verified as well.

I would forward the idea that funds cannot and should not be verified after the post time, as that is logically and physically equivalent to "accepting" a bet past post time since the money isn't committed to the pool yet, then how is it possible that it can win money from other mutual players?, perhaps a small time gambler should make a case of this, that received transactions that are received AND not verified before post time are not legitimate wagers, because the funds are not committed to be able to be won by other players. The larger wagers would need to arrive prior to 1 second to post if a verification process is needed, and we know they need that time.

Are tote companies aren't subject to any sort of security audit or technical review process so what protocols are they following or enforcing? How are they known to be offering a legitimate and guaranteed secure parimutuel pool to the public?

BCOURTNEY
05-14-2018, 02:27 AM
<snip>
supervisor manually verified its integrity. At that point it was added --- which happened to be after the race just finished.
<snip>


Hypothetically: Someone spoofs a bet on every runner for say 500 dollars and then an internal operator/manager (working concert with the spoofer) then declares wagers on all runners but the winner (after the race is completed) to be spoofed and then subsequently canceled sounds like a heck of a business plan to print money between them right? Best excuse would be doing it under the guise of security... of course this couldn't happen right?

How can bets be added to the pool after post time? The fact its because of a verification process doesn't make it ok for the bet to be placed into the pool. Anytime post-verification processes are allowed after outcomes occur security breaches will happen, all verification happens before post time, just like checking your id or running your credit card at the store while you are present. This post verification process is corrupt, backwards, not security best practices and exploitable, there are better exploits than what I tried to illustrate. Additionally, I think someone could argue that the pools aren't parimutuel if some of the bets are allowed to be verified and added after post time.

Fager Fan
05-14-2018, 05:42 AM
From what places are bets coming from that aren't automatically and immediately verified?

sour grapes
05-14-2018, 08:17 AM
i am a self-admitted pari-mutuel past poster from 25 years ago. i dealt with race tracks that actually welcomed my action. its pretty tough for me to believe anything other than all these odds changes are past posting. i watched 80-1 shots in Belmont at the gate win and pay $13.
i was in Suffolk downs where the whole place was occupied by people in the self-betting machines and mutual windows calling the break. it lasted for 2 years until the guy that had the column Looking through the Binoculars wrote about it in the Daily News or The Post, whichever one he worked for. they made Suffolk shut betting off with 2 minutes to post. then they got stung from other places and closed betting off early from their own end. New York never welcomed past posting, but other places like Suffolk, could care less what you do there as long as they got their cut.

please prove that an 80-1 shot paid 13 at belmont,this is pure bullshit but on the internet everything is true.

lamboguy
05-14-2018, 08:29 AM
please prove that an 80-1 shot paid 13 at belmont,this is pure bullshit but on the internet everything is true. this was 25 years ago, if i can find that article i will post it for you to see.

ubercapper
05-14-2018, 10:07 AM
If you think there's a problem, there is an avenue to report it. It's fine to share on Pace Advantage, but the TRPB is here to investigate these issues.

The TRPB, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Thoroughbred Racing Associations of North America (http://www.tra-online.com/), operates as a national investigative agency in the horse racing industry. The mandate is to expose and investigate all activity prejudicial to horse racing and to maintain public confidence in the sport of Thoroughbred racing.

TRPB Integrity Hotline - 410.398.3647 (http://www.trpb.com/integrity.html)

Contact TRPB Mailing address
420 Fair Hill Drive
Suite 2
Elkton, Maryland 21921

Physical address
420 Fair Hill Drive
Suite 2
Fair Hill, Maryland

Telephone
Phone: +410-398-2261 (tel:+1-410-398-2261)


Email
trpbinfo@trpb.com

Fager Fan
05-14-2018, 11:22 AM
If you think there's a problem, there is an avenue to report it. It's fine to share on Pace Advantage, but the TRPB is here to investigate these issues.

The TRPB, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Thoroughbred Racing Associations of North America (http://www.tra-online.com/), operates as a national investigative agency in the horse racing industry. The mandate is to expose and investigate all activity prejudicial to horse racing and to maintain public confidence in the sport of Thoroughbred racing.

TRPB Integrity Hotline - 410.398.3647 (http://www.trpb.com/integrity.html)

Contact TRPB Mailing address
420 Fair Hill Drive
Suite 2
Elkton, Maryland 21921

Physical address
420 Fair Hill Drive
Suite 2
Fair Hill, Maryland

Telephone
Phone: +410-398-2261 (tel:+1-410-398-2261)


Email
trpbinfo@trpb.com

Have they ever done anything?

Andy Asaro
05-14-2018, 11:29 AM
Have they ever done anything?

Apparently not. :lol:

BCOURTNEY
05-14-2018, 11:59 AM
If you think there's a problem, there is an avenue to report it. It's fine to share on Pace Advantage, but the TRPB is here to investigate these issues.

The TRPB, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Thoroughbred Racing Associations of North America (http://www.tra-online.com/), operates as a national investigative agency in the horse racing industry. The mandate is to expose and investigate all activity prejudicial to horse racing and to maintain public confidence in the sport of Thoroughbred racing.

TRPB Integrity Hotline - 410.398.3647 (http://www.trpb.com/integrity.html)

Contact TRPB Mailing address
420 Fair Hill Drive
Suite 2
Elkton, Maryland 21921

Physical address
420 Fair Hill Drive
Suite 2
Fair Hill, Maryland

Telephone
Phone: +410-398-2261 (tel:+1-410-398-2261)


Email
trpbinfo@trpb.com

This is the most relevant actionable post on this thread. Maybe a well written well intended letter written that distills these topics from the threads into some bullet points would be effective.

Tote Security System tab on their website "Under Construction". :lol:

The focus seems to be on backgrounding individuals and horse maintenance instead of the systems that transact all the money. Imagine how this would play out on Wall Street, if they worked the same way, I would volunteer they assume the technology security outweighs the individual investigations.

Andy Asaro
05-14-2018, 12:39 PM
Word from someone I trust says the past posting comments in the thread are overblown. I WILL find out more.

BCOURTNEY
05-14-2018, 03:08 PM
Word from someone I trust says the past posting comments in the thread are overblown. I WILL find out more.

This isn't solely about past posting, so when you are talking to whoever these folks are, it's the fact that the tote accepts wagers without committing them to the pool immediately. The acceptance and commitment should be at the same time and the fact that they are separate things not occurring in a timely manner is the problem both in the way that it appears as well as a security issue. If that is fixed all of this goes away, in addition to removing all the security concerns and the appearance of impropriety.

The question is what percent of accepted wagers are added the the pool after post time, the correct answer is zero percent, not a single dollar, it's not to make excuses for old technology or poor design, because the design, protocols and technology exists today to address this issue, saying it's hard or can't be done is invalid.

jay68802
05-14-2018, 03:29 PM
This isn't solely about past posting, so when you are talking to whoever these folks are, it's the fact that the tote accepts wagers without committing them to the pool immediately. The acceptance and commitment should be at the same time and the fact that they are separate things not occurring in a timely manner is the problem both in the way that it appears as well as a security issue. If that is fixed all of this goes away, in addition to removing all the security concerns and the appearance of impropriety.

The question is what percent of accepted wagers are added the the pool after post time, the correct answer is zero percent, not a single dollar, it's not to make excuses for old technology or poor design, because the design, protocols and technology exists today to address this issue, saying it's hard or can't be done is invalid.

We have a winner here, correct on a lot of points. The one thing I am still not buying here is that some "kid-wana be" hackers have access to the tote system. If that is true what would some "serious grown-up" hackers be capable of?

Tom
05-14-2018, 03:33 PM
I take it the OP is not going to post the "smoking screenshots" proving his point?

BCOURTNEY
05-14-2018, 03:35 PM
We have a winner here, correct on a lot of points. The one thing I am still not buying here is that some "kid-wana be" hackers have access to the tote system. If that is true what would some "serious grown-up" hackers be capable of?

There are no kid wanna be hackers that would invest one minute of time on the tote system, that is a red herring. The question is why the serious grown up hackers want to appear to be kid-wanna be hackers, right?

jay68802
05-14-2018, 03:48 PM
There are no kid wanna be hackers that would invest one minute of time on the tote system, that is a red herring. The question is why the serious grown up hackers want to appear to be kid-wanna be hackers, right?

Only one reason for that, money.

AltonKelsey
05-14-2018, 04:07 PM
There appears to be pitifully little evidence to justify the angst exhibited here about supposed past posting.


You'd think we'd have videos & screen shots galore.


Instead , all we get are posts insisting the pools are being drained dry by nefarious actors.



Sure, its possible to steal from any institution.



Is it happening in racing? Show me the money.......


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AlsoEligible
05-14-2018, 04:21 PM
This isn't solely about past posting, so when you are talking to whoever these folks are, it's the fact that the tote accepts wagers without committing them to the pool immediately. The acceptance and commitment should be at the same time and the fact that they are separate things not occurring in a timely manner is the problem both in the way that it appears as well as a security issue. If that is fixed all of this goes away, in addition to removing all the security concerns and the appearance of impropriety.

Yes, and other markets (HK, UK, France, Sweden) already use protocols like this:

- Bet is submitted from a guest tote
- Bet is immediately transmitted to the host tote
- Host tote reviews the bet and accepts or rejects it
- If accepted, only then does guest tote record the bet

All of that happens in a fraction of a second, and at no point are there bets sitting around on guest systems that the host doesn't know about. Compare that to the current North American protocol:

- Bets are submitted and recorded on a guest tote
- 45-60 seconds later, host tote asks each guest for current pool totals
- Guest totes sends host their total money (no individual bet details)
- Host tote then combines all guest money into the pool and re-calculates odds

A protocol like that made sense in the early 90s, when every single track was its own tote system, and communication was done over dozens of 28.8k dial lines, where we didn't have the bandwidth to transmit handshakes back and forth for tens of thousands of individual bets.

Nowadays, all of those tracks have been condensed into a handful of regional superhubs, and bandwidth is virtually unlimited. So we absolutely could transition to a bet-by-bet protocol like other jurisdictions use. But as usual, the elephant in the room is: who is going to successfully push the industry towards an initiative like that, and who is going to pay for the development of such a protocol.

Fratman
05-14-2018, 09:03 PM
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-cyber/thieves-suck-millions-out-of-mexican-banks-in-transfer-heist-idUSKCN1IF1X7

Run down facilities, lukewarm management but we must have top of the line equipment and software -- right ??

Tom
05-14-2018, 09:13 PM
:popcorn:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-cyber/thieves-suck-millions-out-of-mexican-banks-in-transfer-heist-idUSKCN1IF1X7

Run down facilities, lukewarm management but we must have top of the line equipment and software -- right ??

Yes, because most of a track's handel comes from off track, not from the pitifully crappy facilities.

Parkview_Pirate
05-14-2018, 09:22 PM
Word from someone I trust says the past posting comments in the thread are overblown. I WILL find out more.

Overblown by whose definition? The persistence of this issue, overblown or not, appears to be continuing to hurt racing's image, which it can't afford. Look into why tracks don't just cut off wagering two minutes to post, and we can put the issue to bed once and for all.

One thing I believe people betting from home sometimes miss is that their online or satellite video feed may often get reset and rebuffered, and be trailing live racing by 20, 30 or more seconds. In this case, the live odds displayed by the ADW may be out of sync, and it can appear there's hanky panky going on.

Personally, I think the current system operates pretty cleanly, but computer security is iffy in many areas, and I suppose hacking is still possible. 25-30 years ago, racing went through a brief period of simulcasting more products like whole race cards, but before commingling, and so there was often IMHO payouts that made no sense. As in small local pool, impossible bombs getting there, and payouts on a single ticket instead of an all. Total fleecing.

Andy Asaro
05-14-2018, 09:32 PM
Overblown by whose definition? The persistence of this issue, overblown or not, appears to be continuing to hurt racing's image, which it can't afford. Look into why tracks don't just cut off wagering two minutes to post, and we can put the issue to bed once and for all.

One thing I believe people betting from home sometimes miss is that their online or satellite video feed may often get reset and rebuffered, and be trailing live racing by 20, 30 or more seconds. In this case, the live odds displayed by the ADW may be out of sync, and it can appear there's hanky panky going on.

Personally, I think the current system operates pretty cleanly, but computer security is iffy in many areas, and I suppose hacking is still possible. 25-30 years ago, racing went through a brief period of simulcasting more products like whole race cards, but before commingling, and so there was often IMHO payouts that made no sense. As in small local pool, impossible bombs getting there, and payouts on a single ticket instead of an all. Total fleecing.

There is a chance I may be able to report from the source.

AskinHaskin
05-16-2018, 12:32 AM
The question is what percent of accepted wagers are added the the pool after post time, the correct answer is zero percent, not a single dollar,


OK, given your take on this matter, just what should we all do during the 5 to 7 minutes between post time at Gulfstream and when the race starts?


You are simply wrong - that's it.

BCOURTNEY
05-16-2018, 09:14 PM
OK, given your take on this matter, just what should we all do during the 5 to 7 minutes between post time at Gulfstream and when the race starts?


You are simply wrong - that's it.

My take is that the totalizator system is ancient exploitable technology with a panache for causing at minimum the appearance of impropriety and the possibility real impropriety by allowing monies to be posted after post time.

The cutoff for accepting wagers has to be at some point, I don't really care if it's when the gates open. I do care that after the gates open and/or after post time additional monies calculations are occurring - everyone should.