LeBron James

[thaskalos]

Going into the last 5 minutes of tonight's game against the Raptors...I don't think I've ever seen a better game from a single player than the one LeBron James has played tonight. I am sitting here with my mouth open...LITERALLY.

[Greyfox]

Prior to this series Toronto media thought the Raptors would neutralize LeBron and move on.
Back to the drawing board.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Going into the last 5 minutes of tonight's game against the Raptors...I don't think I've ever seen a better game from a single player than the one LeBron James has played tonight. I am sitting here with my mouth open...LITERALLY.

Massive LeBron fan, but... Jordan.

[Inner Dirt]

Going into the last 5 minutes of tonight's game against the Raptors...I don't think I've ever seen a better game from a single player than the one LeBron James has played tonight. I am sitting here with my mouth open...LITERALLY.

Massive LeBron fan, but... Jordan.

Tough call, obviously the default is to call the guy the most fresh in your mind the greatest ever. Lebron is definitely getting closer to Jordan for the greatest of all time label. Lebron hasn't fallen off a bit in his 30's, and Jordan tailed off a little after his year off to play baseball. On the other hand Jordan at a listed 6'6" and 200# drew as many triple teams as Wilt Chamberlain, there was a reason for that. Also I swear I have seen Michael Jordan change direction in mid air.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Tough call, obviously the default is to call the guy the most fresh in your mind the greatest ever. Lebron is definitely getting closer to Jordan for the greatest of all time label. Lebron hasn't fallen off a bit in his 30's, and Jordan tailed off a little after his year off to play baseball. On the other hand Jordan at a listed 6'6" and 200# drew as many triple teams as Wilt Chamberlain, there was a reason for that. Also I swear I have seen Michael Jordan change direction in mid air.

My biggest difference is that Jordan was a 'closer'.

LeBron and the Cavs offense when they lead late in games in the Playoffs is more annoying than people who constantly post pictures of their pets on Social Media.

LeBron can play all 5. He can defend all if 5 need be. He is an incredible player with many a moment and accomplishment..,but, Jordan is still better IMO.

[Inner Dirt]

My biggest difference is that Jordan was a 'closer'.

LeBron and the Cavs offense when they lead late in games in the Playoffs is more annoying than people who constantly post pictures of their pets on Social Media.

LeBron can play all 5. He can defend all if 5 need be. He is an incredible player with many a moment and accomplishment..,but, Jordan is still better IMO.

Another feather in Jordan's cap is the era he played in defenses got away with a lot more than they do now. The flagrant foul did not even become rule till his 7th year, and the following years was not enforced like it is today. I remember after one play-off game against the Pistons in the late 80's during an interview Jordan had welts all over his head. Detroit had lower end bench players whose main purpose was to use their fouls to rough up Jordan and try to get in his head. He pretty much got mugged every time he drove the lane, he has to be the toughest player all time of his size.

[rogerbalz]

Who has more titles???
I am from CLE he left to get his first says a lot about character then came back and won! Nota fan. The BIG O was a better all around player averaged a triple double for the season!
Next.

[JustRalph]

Going into the last 5 minutes of tonight's game against the Raptors...I don't think I've ever seen a better game from a single player than the one LeBron James has played tonight. I am sitting here with my mouth open...LITERALLY.

If God decided to design the perfect physical specimen for basketball I’m sure it would look very much like Lebron. I haven’t seen him in person for many years, but you could just tell he was going to be a huge guy with incredible skills that would not be encumbered by his size or strength.

He’s living up to it

[ronsmac]

Who has more titles???
I am from CLE he left to get his first says a lot about character then came back and won! Nota fan. The BIG O was a better all around player averaged a triple double for the season!
Next.Your memory is probably playing tricks on you. Google the Big O on youtube and watch him play for 30 seconds. Then watch Lebron. Your mind will be changed quickly.

[JustRalph]

Your memory is probably playing tricks on you. Google the Big O on youtube and watch him play for 30 seconds. Then watch Lebron. Your mind will be changed quickly.

I loved the Big O. But these two guys aren’t playing the same game. It’s a totally different game today. Hell, it’s not even the same game Magic and Bird played.

[JustRalph]

Check out his game winner tonight

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/lebron-james-hits-game-winner-carry-cavs-3-0-lead-article-1.3973778

[elysiantraveller]

James have been the GOAT for quite awhile IMO.

As JR said... If you are gonna hold a draft of all-time NBA players you're taking Lebron #1.

[Valuist]

I hope to get an underdog price on Boston, assuming they advance. Better all around team, and a huge edge in coaching. Cavs only advantage is having the best player in the series.

The real Finals will be Warriors/Rockets. As great as the Warriors have been over the past 4 seasons, they will have their hands full with Houston. I'm guessing the Dubs will be favored, but only slightly.

[burnsy]

He's good but there's a hype factor. For one thing...he beat up on Toronto, big deal?


The other thing is vs. the good teams Cleveland does not play defense. Even LeBron gets gassed at the end and he isn't much.


I'll call it just like I did last year.....like I always do.....well in advance when it comes to the NBA and NFL. I've been posting here for years so its not I haven't done it before.

Same as last year if Cleveland can even get past Boston, Golden State is going to crush either one. I posted last year KD is just about as good, if not better because he plays defense for the full game. Its gonna be the same deal if everyone remains healthy. If you don't believe me read what I posted last year. It may be even uglier this year. The King will get his crown kicked again...….if they even get there. They had trouble with Indiana and now its no sure thing with Boston....that kind of spells an ass kicking from the Western Conference. I can hardly wait.

There's a chance I'll lose, but its not very likely. Its gambling after all. MVP KD!

[highnote]

The other thing is vs. the good teams Cleveland does not play defense. Even LeBron gets gassed at the end and he isn't much.

CLE defense was pretty good against Boston the past two games. Even Korver got three blocks in the last game and dove on the floor after a loose ball.



Same as last year if Cleveland can even get past Boston, Golden State is going to crush either one.

Rockets looked good beating GS at GS. That's not easy to do.

I'd love to see a CLE / HOU series. D'Antoni's coaching style is one of my favorites.

[burnsy]

The excuse this morning from the talking heads is LeBron was tired. :pound: And his bio rythum was off. And they got burned badly as Boston gets another game with about 20 open looks. The defense stunk again, including Le King lol

[Valuist]

CLE defense was pretty good against Boston the past two games. Even Korver got three blocks in the last game and dove on the floor after a loose ball.





Rockets looked good beating GS at GS. That's not easy to do.

I'd love to see a CLE / HOU series. D'Antoni's coaching style is one of my favorites.

I don't think the Rockets looked good at all. Golden State was just terrible in the 4th quarter. Terrible shot selection and undisciplined play. And Houston still barely won and probably only led for a few minutes all game. Houston can't count on GS to come up with a non effort like that again.

[lansdale]

It will be strange to have an NBA Finals w/o Lebron -- last time it happened was, I believe, 2009, but Cavs are done for this year. To blame him for this is ridiculous -- he played a v. good game last night 26/10/10 -- even if he scores 35 they stlll lose. After losing Kyrie, they simply didn't have enough to win at this level. Maybe some speculation why Lebron was able to win with a bad team in 2015-- yes, but he was three years younger. No team has won an NBA championship with an SF as it's key player over the age of 32.

Agree w/Valuist re GSW/Rockets -- Warriors still the better team. 4th Q. of last game somewhat of a fluke, but more than few signs that they don't take Rox seriously -- careless shot selection, no screens set on three-ball attempts, Kerr not calling time to draw up a play in final seconds -- none of the usual signs that they felt they needed this win. Also no Iguodala in 4 Q. due to injury -- he'll be back tonight. One thing to note though -- this was the first time I watched Curry carefully since his long absence, it he seemed to have trouble beating defenders off the dribble in 4 Q. and creating space to shoot the three -- but he also had no screens, so not sure whether this is a real thing or not. We'll know more after tonight. BTW, predicting that tonight Ariza will take a serious cheap shot at one of the GSW shooters - Durant, Curry, or Klay -- in an attempt to knock him out of the game -- seriously hope I'm wrong about this.

[highnote]

I don't think the Rockets looked good at all. Golden State was just terrible in the 4th quarter. Terrible shot selection and undisciplined play. And Houston still barely won and probably only led for a few minutes all game. Houston can't count on GS to come up with a non effort like that again.

Sometimes a good team can make you look bad. Rockets may not have looked good because they were playing a good team. But Rockets are also a good team that caused GS to play poorly.

Same thing in CLE/BOS game 5. CLE played two good games back to back and were worn out. It's tough to put together 3 big games in this league this time of year. BOS is very good and CLE was awful.

CLE should be able to bounce back and win game 6. That will set up a game 7 which will be tough for CLE to win. But then again, you can't underestimate LBJ when his back is against the wall.

If CLE wins game 7 they definitely lose game 1 against either GS or HOU.

[lamboguy]

the last time the Celtics won a championship was about 10 years ago. they win in basketball like the Yankees do in baseball.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Awful G5 between Hou/GS, and now GS is on the ropes needing to win the final 2 with G7 back in the crib of tonight's disaster.


Should be a really interesting wagering line for G6 in GS. GS in a blowout looks to be way too obvious.

[highnote]

Awful G5 between Hou/GS, and now GS is on the ropes needing to win the final 2 with G7 back in the crib of tonight's disaster.


Should be a really interesting wagering line for G6 in GS. GS in a blowout looks to be way too obvious.

GS blew it. They should have gotten the ball to Curry or Thompson. Green is not the guy you want to have the ball when the game is on the line.

The play was kind of a good idea. Green had a wide open lane to drive to the hoop and would have had an easy dunk or drawn the foul, but he dropped the ball figuratively and literally.


Chances of a CLE/HOU or BOS/HOU championship are increasing.

[lansdale]

Haven't seen any mention here, but looks as though CP3's late-game injury tonight may have doomed Rox chance to make the Finals. Knowledgeable friend observed that, from the pain he was clearly in, looked at like a hamstring tear, or at the least, a serious strain. Likely will be out for at least G. 6, and difficult to see how he might be effective in G.7 (which will doubtless be necessary). Really sad if this is the case -- would love to see this great player make it to one championship.

Re the game itself, the stars of both teams might have seemed underwhelming but only because both of these defenses are very good. That said, seems more clear now that Curry is not at his best -- many noting that he can't shake defenders and having a difficult time getting off threes. Rox not making things any easier for he and Klay, stopping their off-ball action off down-screens, not allowing them to make catches for threes. Thus their offense is forced into too much iso-Durant. As great a scorer as he is, he's not the guy you want with the ball in his hands in the crunch, and the resulting spectacle of disconnection everyone's seeing is mainly a function of this shift. Also seems that Kerr is betting outcoached by D'Antoni -- those last three were GSW possessions, one with Quinn Cook (?) bricking the most important shot of the season early in the clock, and another w/DG leading a fast break while forgetting the ball. In fairness to Green, though, he didn't have an open path to the hoop -- Eric Gordon and P.J. Tucker, two very capable defenders were directly in front of him and no way he gets a call at the basket on the road. But Houston still lucky to pull this out -- Harden was atrocious, but Gordon, amazingly clutch, as he has been in the post-season. CP3 was great down the stretch, but having to work so hard for open shots, and especially that last, may have ended his season. Hoping not.

[thaskalos]

That was the worst game that I've ever seen in my life. I spent the day with a cousin who just came from Greece...and he drove me nuts by continually telling me about how improved European basketball has become. To silence him once and for all, I invited him to watch tonight's game with me...so he could see how basketball is really played when the truly ELITE teams step on the court. And then he aggravated me anew, by staring at me throughout the game as if I were the dumbest guy that he ever saw.

[MutuelClerk]

I haven't watched the NBA in years now. Don't like the way the game has changed. BUt no hockey last night, not much happening in baseball so I watched the last five mins. Awful, it will be years again before I watch again. Players who can't shoot keep jacking up threes. What I found really odd is NO ONE is underneath to rebound. Sometimes the ball hits the floor. Amazing. Give me hands on defense. inside games. The Magic-Bird-Isiah era. Unwatchable to me now.

As far as the Lebron-Jordan debate. Being a Detroiter and lover of the bad boys I despise Jordan and LeBron. If you believe the premise that athletes get better every generation then LeBron is better than Jordan. Who's more dominant? Not sure. Jordan couldn't win when the Lakers, Celtics and Pistons were at their very best. IT took a watered down expansion league to put him over the top. As far as LeBron goes. I think mentally he has flaws. Physically he's probably the most gifted athlete ever. I'll take Magic.

[highnote]

That was the worst game that I've ever seen in my life. I spent the day with a cousin who just came from Greece...and he drove me nuts by continually telling me about how improved European basketball has become. To silence him once and for all, I invited him to watch tonight's game with me...so he could see how basketball is really played when the truly ELITE teams step on the court. And then he aggravated me anew, by staring at me throughout the game as if I were the dumbest guy that he ever saw.

The Europeans have improved -- Australians, too.

Check out college rosters -- they're filled with Europeans and Aussies.

Even the prep schools are now attracting Euros and Aussies because the young foreign players want to come here to learn American-style basketball.

The foreign players are brought up learning solid fundamentals in training schools, whereas, Americans tend to learn to play streetball on the schoolyard and city courts.

A lot of American kids play too many AAU and "grass roots" basketball games where the goal is to win, not to become a better player. Too often the coach makes it about himself rather than about the players.

American NBA players are physical and athletic, but not necessarily as skilled as the foreigners.

My older son got recruited to play on a couple of AAU teams when he was in fifth grade. He played a lot of games, but noticed he wasn't getting better. So I called the best high school coach in the area -- a former NBA player. He told me about skill and conditioning clinics run by his cousin who was also a former NBA player. My son started to get good his sophomore year after going to the clinics where the focus was on fundamentals -- not games.

My son became a starter on varsity by the end of his sophomore year and by his senior year his team had the most wins in 60 years at his school.

He stopped playing AAU altogether after his junior year. He continues the skill clinics and hopes to play in college.

My younger son is a freshman. We are not going to have him play AAU until he is a junior. He just goes to the skill clinics and plays on the high school winter team. Without ever playing a single AAU game he was named captain of his freshman team because he has the most skill and knowledge of the game of anyone on the team -- probably in the entire league -- except for the other kids who attend the same clinic.

The unfortunate thing for the kids who come from families who can't afford professional trainers is that they are falling behind skill-wise. I see a lot of amazing athletes who play basketball, but they're not basketball players. I can see that they're frustrated when they get beaten by smaller kids with less athletic ability, but who have more skill and understanding of the game.

The greatest players have both world-class skills and world-class athleticism. Those are the Michael Jordans, Larry Birds, and Steph Curries of the world.

[cj]

That was the worst game that I've ever seen in my life. I spent the day with a cousin who just came from Greece...and he drove me nuts by continually telling me about how improved European basketball has become. To silence him once and for all, I invited him to watch tonight's game with me...so he could see how basketball is really played when the truly ELITE teams step on the court. And then he aggravated me anew, by staring at me throughout the game as if I were the dumbest guy that he ever saw.

Well, if he thinks European pro basketball is anywhere near the level of the NBA, you are at worst the second dumbest guy he's ever seen assuming he uses a mirror occasionally.

[thaskalos]

Well, if he thinks European pro basketball is anywhere near the level of the NBA, you are at worst the second dumbest guy he's ever seen assuming he uses a mirror occasionally.

Does this in any way excuse the sorry exhibition of so-called "basketball" that we witnessed last night?

[highnote]

Well, if he thinks European pro basketball is anywhere near the level of the NBA, you are at worst the second dumbest guy he's ever seen assuming he uses a mirror occasionally.

European pro basketball may not be near the level of the NBA, but some European players are on level footing with American born players.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Does this in any way excuse the sorry exhibition of so-called "basketball" that we witnessed last night?


Zero.


That was as bad of an NBA playoff game as I've watched in a while. Especially a conference finals Game 5 with so much on the line. Usually at least one team shows up and plays well.

[highnote]

Does this in any way excuse the sorry exhibition of so-called "basketball" that we witnessed last night?

I have seen many poor basketball performances caused by the chemistry of the matchup. Sometimes players are sloppy and other times they are tired.

But sometimes they look bad because of the matchup.

My son's high school team was very good last year -- most wins in 59 years. But they lost a few games that I felt they should have won. Then it dawned on me that it was the matchup that caused them to lose. Maybe the coach can be blamed for not making the proper adjustments?

Or maybe when a skilled team with less gifted athletes than the opponent is able to take away what the opponent does best it makes the opponent look bad, even though the opponent is a superior team against any other team.

[cj]

Does this in any way excuse the sorry exhibition of so-called "basketball" that we witnessed last night?

I saw some bad shooting, which can happen, and I also saw some really good defense. This tends to happen when teams are playing each other for the fifth time in a short span. The same thing is happening in the East series.

[cj]

European pro basketball may not be near the level of the NBA, but some European players are on level footing with American born players.

Of course they are, and it isn't just Europe. We have Australia, Brazil, Argentina, Europe, Canada, and even New Zealand now.

I'm just saying if people think we are seeing bad basketball here, there is no way it is better anywhere else.

[cj]

I have seen many poor basketball performances caused by the chemistry of the matchup. Sometimes players are sloppy and other times they are tired.

But sometimes they look bad because of the matchup.

My son's high school team was very good last year -- most wins in 59 years. But they lost a few games that I felt they should have won. Then it dawned on me that it was the matchup that caused them to lose. Maybe the coach can be blamed for not making the proper adjustments?

Or maybe when a skilled team with less gifted athletes than the opponent is able to take away what the opponent does best it makes the opponent look bad, even though the opponent is a superior team against any other team.

This is exactly right. And it isn't just the match up in the playoffs, it is repeatedly playing the same team if they are pretty evenly matched. They get to the point where the players on one team are calling out the others team's plays before they run them.

[highnote]

Of course they are, and it isn't just Europe. We have Australia, Brazil, Argentina, Europe, Canada, and even New Zealand now.

I'm just saying if people think we are seeing bad basketball here, there is no way it is better anywhere else.

Agreed.

[highnote]

This is exactly right. And it isn't just the match up in the playoffs, it is repeatedly playing the same team if they are pretty evenly matched. They get to the point where the players on one team are calling out the others team's plays before they run them.

Agreed.

[thaskalos]

I saw some bad shooting, which can happen, and I also saw some really good defense. This tends to happen when teams are playing each other for the fifth time in a short span. The same thing is happening in the East series.
I must have been watching a different game on another channel...because what I saw was an embarrassing spectacle of endless turnovers caused by idiotic passes and needless dribbling...along with a continuous supply of off-balanced threes when there was no real reason to rush such a shot.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I must have been watching a different game on another channel...because what I saw was an embarrassing spectacle of endless turnovers caused by idiotic passes and needless dribbling...along with a continuous supply of off-balanced threes when there was no real reason to rush such a shot.


Fair enough. It was ugly, but it wasn't THAT ugly.


Here is a clip from the 1984 NBA Finals between the Celtics and Lakers. The two premier teams in the league with massive followings and in the absolute heyday of the NBA with the likes of Bird, Magic, Jabbar, Worthy, McHale, Parish, Ainge, etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li7VNiS-Jgk


Nobody played defense. Nobody. 15 feet from the hoop, and you were getting room to play. Passes into the post were a joke as they simply weren't even defended. And forget about getting back on defense to stop any kind of 'fast break'.



The 4 teams still alive in the NBA Playoffs today would run a train on the Celtics and Lakers of '84.

[ronsmac]

Fair enough. It was ugly, but it wasn't THAT ugly.


Here is a clip from the 1984 NBA Finals between the Celtics and Lakers. The two premier teams in the league with massive followings and in the absolute heyday of the NBA with the likes of Bird, Magic, Jabbar, Worthy, McHale, Parish, Ainge, etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li7VNiS-Jgk


Nobody played defense. Nobody. 15 feet from the hoop, and you were getting room to play. Passes into the post were a joke as they simply weren't even defended. And forget about getting back on defense to stop any kind of 'fast break'.



The 4 teams still alive in the NBA Playoffs today would run a train on the Celtics and Lakers of '84.The worst team in the NBA today would beat the best team of the 80s.

[thaskalos]

Fair enough. It was ugly, but it wasn't THAT ugly.


Here is a clip from the 1984 NBA Finals between the Celtics and Lakers. The two premier teams in the league with massive followings and in the absolute heyday of the NBA with the likes of Bird, Magic, Jabbar, Worthy, McHale, Parish, Ainge, etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li7VNiS-Jgk


Nobody played defense. Nobody. 15 feet from the hoop, and you were getting room to play. Passes into the post were a joke as they simply weren't even defended. And forget about getting back on defense to stop any kind of 'fast break'.



The 4 teams still alive in the NBA Playoffs today would run a train on the Celtics and Lakers of '84.

I don't know that I agree with you. In your above video...neither of the two teams ever missed a shot.

[Inner Dirt]

The worst team in the NBA today would beat the best team of the 80s.


The Pistons of that era would have trouble having 5 eligible players a game if they played by today's rules and officiating. Most players would be constantly serving suspensions for committing flagrant 2's.

[highnote]

Fair enough. It was ugly, but it wasn't THAT ugly.


Here is a clip from the 1984 NBA Finals between the Celtics and Lakers. The two premier teams in the league with massive followings and in the absolute heyday of the NBA with the likes of Bird, Magic, Jabbar, Worthy, McHale, Parish, Ainge, etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li7VNiS-Jgk


Nobody played defense. Nobody. 15 feet from the hoop, and you were getting room to play. Passes into the post were a joke as they simply weren't even defended. And forget about getting back on defense to stop any kind of 'fast break'.



The 4 teams still alive in the NBA Playoffs today would run a train on the Celtics and Lakers of '84.

No one would stop Jabbar today.

[Robert Fischer]

Guessing Hakeem 'The Dream' Olajuwan could only average about 8pts / 8rebounds in today's NBA.


Still not bad for a 55 year old man.

[cj]

No one would stop Jabbar today.

His hook shot would be considered a bad shot now as a non-paint 2!!!

[Robert Fischer]

LeBron better bring it tonight. Down 8 after the 1st quarter...


Kareem would be shooting 3-pointer-skyhooks while carrying 25 more pounds of muscle, laser-correct 20/20 vision, hair plugs and a jet-black beard :headbanger:

[Inner Dirt]

LeBron better bring it tonight. Down 8 after the 1st quarter...


Kareem would be shooting 3-pointer-skyhooks while carrying 25 more pounds of muscle, laser-correct 20/20 vision, hair plugs and a jet-black beard :headbanger:


I don't understand people that say (any past era, any sport) "players from 70's would get smoked by modern players, the competition was terrible."


They act like the species of man has evolved genetically at some insane rate the last half century or so. Giving no thought to the fact if an athlete from the 60's grew up today with modern nutrition, training and medicine (legal or illegal) they would end up being able to perform like today's athletes.


Pretty sure most of us older guys realize that, go to a sports forum full of young people and most think 1955 was like the dark ages and the average man was 5'6". Another factor with modern technology colleges and pro sports are developing athletes that back in the day would not be discovered.

[Robert Fischer]

I don't understand people that say (any past era, any sport) "players from 70's would get smoked by modern players, the competition was terrible."


They act like the species of man has evolved genetically at some insane rate the last half century or so. Giving no thought to the fact if an athlete from the 60's grew up today with modern nutrition, training and medicine (legal or illegal) they would end up being able to perform like today's athletes.


Pretty sure most of us older guys realize that, go to a sports forum full of young people and most think 1955 was like the dark ages and the average man was 5'6". Another factor with modern technology colleges and pro sports are developing athletes that back in the day would not be discovered.

I agree. I wouldn't be shocked to see some slight growth with humans, but 'performance' has been a much steeper significant curve.

In the 80s and 90s Basketball(and Baseball) was my horse racing. I was 6'8 1/2 tall and about 230lbs as a senior in '97.

We had athletes back then, but weight training has improved. In the 80s NBA players for the most part looked like regular tall men. Many more of today's NBA players look like olympic athletes.

Things like steroids and hgh and really scientific doctor-designed implementation has played some role. It's always going to be something that is publicly expressed as a non-existing factor, but privately it's been kind of accepted that if you use your body for a living, you should do everything that helps. I mean, you can't turn on netflix and watch a series without some actors that are using.

Basketball has changed a lot. It's a much more efficient game now. If I wanted to shoot a 3 back then, I would have needed to buy an airplane ticket to Europe. I remember hitting 20 in a row from behind the arc in a shoot around, and having students come up to me asking why I wasn't a 3-pt shooter.
Two funny things back then were carrying a coach/jockey on my shoulders when I went out to shoot 3s or decided to bring the ball up coast-to-coast (which was only surpassed by the effort required to carry a baseball coach and a pitching coach from the pitcher's mound over to the first-base bag). I was a stretch-4 and a first-baseman so it wasn't my era. (Not that baseball has a ton of tall hitters. Maybe that makes more sense.). I have a condition called 'Marfan Syndrome' and I had an aortic dissection and 3 open-heart surgeries, so a career playing ball wasn't meant to be. (btw; Jeff Green of the Cavs has come back from a surgery that was vaguely similar to one of mine(without the dissection) and he did a great job filling in for Kevin Love in game 7).

Another great game from Lebron. That blocked-dunk highlight was impressive. Lot of fans counted him out after Game 5.

Game 7 West tonight 9pm

[lansdale]

It will be strange to have an NBA Finals w/o Lebron -- last time it happened was, I believe, 2009, but Cavs are done for this year. To blame him for this is ridiculous -- he played a v. good game last night 26/10/10 -- even if he scores 35 they stlll lose. After losing Kyrie, they simply didn't have enough to win at this level. Maybe some speculation why Lebron was able to win with a bad team in 2015-- yes, but he was three years younger. No team has won an NBA championship with an SF as it's key player over the age of 32.

Agree w/Valuist re GSW/Rockets -- Warriors still the better team. 4th Q. of last game somewhat of a fluke, but more than few signs that they don't take Rox seriously -- careless shot selection, no screens set on three-ball attempts, Kerr not calling time to draw up a play in final seconds -- none of the usual signs that they felt they needed this win. Also no Iguodala in 4 Q. due to injury -- he'll be back tonight. One thing to note though -- this was the first time I watched Curry carefully since his long absence, it he seemed to have trouble beating defenders off the dribble in 4 Q. and creating space to shoot the three -- but he also had no screens, so not sure whether this is a real thing or not. We'll know more after tonight. BTW, predicting that tonight Ariza will take a serious cheap shot at one of the GSW shooters - Durant, Curry, or Klay -- in an attempt to knock him out of the game -- seriously hope I'm wrong about this.


Apologies to Lebron and the Cavs for doubting another trip to the Finals. And although LBJ was typically great, playing 48 minutes no less, think this team was lucky to be facing a young Celt team that seemed to lose their composure for the first time in the post-season, going 7/39 from downtown, including a number of wide-open looks. This is why teams load up on veterans (Robert Horry?) for the post-season.

[highnote]

In the 80s and 90s Basketball(and Baseball) was my horse racing. I was 6'8 1/2 tall and about 230lbs as a senior in '97.

Basketball has changed a lot. It's a much more efficient game now. If I wanted to shoot a 3 back then, I would have needed to buy an airplane ticket to Europe. I remember hitting 20 in a row from behind the arc in a shoot around, and having students come up to me asking why I wasn't a 3-pt shooter.

It is only just starting to change in high school basketball here in CT.

I coached my son's team during the summer league when he was going into his sophomore year. We had a 6'8" kid who went on to play in college. I asked the kids to run an up-tempo game and shoot a lot of 3-pointers. And I looked at our 6'8" player and said, "Even you!".

He gave me an incredulous look as if to say, "You can't be serious." He never took a single three during the summer games -- games that had absolutely no pressure and were meaningless for the most part.

Finally, a year later the big kid started shooting 3s on occasion. He was actually a pretty good shooter. He shot over 70% from the free throw line and about 33% from 3 point range. He couldn't do a jump shot, though. It was more of a set shot. Still, he was often wide-open because no one guarded him that far from the rim.

Now I am starting to see more high school bigs shooting threes.

[Inner Dirt]

I agree. I wouldn't be shocked to see some slight growth with humans, but 'performance' has been a much steeper significant curve.

In the 80s and 90s Basketball(and Baseball) was my horse racing. I was 6'8 1/2 tall and about 230lbs as a senior in '97.

We had athletes back then, but weight training has improved. In the 80s NBA players for the most part looked like regular tall men. Many more of today's NBA players look like olympic athletes.

Things like steroids and hgh and really scientific doctor-designed implementation has played some role. It's always going to be something that is publicly expressed as a non-existing factor, but privately it's been kind of accepted that if you use your body for a living, you should do everything that helps. I mean, you can't turn on netflix and watch a series without some actors that are using.




Sorry about you having a heart condition at a young age.



I think steroids and HGH are the biggest difference.



There is not a big magical difference in advancement in weight training or nutrition in the 40 years since I was in school, most of the huge gains in those areas were made in the 60's and early 70's as body building contests became popular. Go in an NFL weight room you find a lot of the same equipment that was been around for 50 years and even the newfangled

computerized machines aren't working any muscles any differently than you could have by different means a half century ago. Over the counter nutritional supplements that are used by athletes today have the same basic ingredients in them that have been around for 40+ years.


A good example is to look at professional body builders from back in Arnold's heyday over 40 years ago to today, not much difference. They have always taken illegal drugs and were never tested. I think with today's athletes the doctors and pharmacists mostly stay ahead of the testing.

Good example was Barry Bonds, he never peed dirty. I saw a picture of him in bicycling gear just a year after he retired from baseball, 40 pounds of muscle vanished. Don't know anything about HGH, but steroid aided muscle growth disappears quickly after you stop using. Muscles built without cheating slowly dissipate once you stop training. You see too many NFL players instantly shrink after their playing days.

[pandy]

Lebron is what you would get if you made Michael Jordan bigger and stronger.

[Bogo]

I think I am in the minority when discussing past athletes because I am only in my 30's. But ever since I was young I had an extreme interest in the people that played earlier in just about every sport. I became friends with a man that had all kinds of film and even rare boxing fights from Jack Johnson. I loved watching the old games and boxing matches. My take is that an athlete should be judged on his performance against other athletes in his era. How dominant was he against players in his era? I just don't see how someone that played thirty years ago can be judged on speed and weight against an athlete playing now. Julio Jones is 20 pounds heavier and is faster than Jerry Rice. But Jerry Rice was better against athletes in his era than Julio Jones is against athletes in his. I am sure there are running backs faster and shiftier than Gale Sayers today. But he could do things nobody else could do at that time. Imagine if Jim Brown was born 22 years ago. We might actually see a 260lb running back with sprinter's speed. Some day forty years from now people will say Lebron looked slow and robotic on the tape. But he sure doesn't look that way against players in his era.

[burnsy]

Cavs +650, Warriors -1000 :lol::lol::lol:

Some places have moved it to -1200

Can't even bet it.

All the Lebron talk and they will get dogged by KD yet again. He's been beat up on them for the better part of 2 years now. With half the "Lebron drama." He just goes out and plays his game and...……..wins.

[cj]

Cavs +650, Warriors -1000 :lol::lol::lol:

Some places have moved it to -1200

Can't even bet it.

All the Lebron talk and they will get dogged by KD yet again. He's been beat up on them for the better part of 2 years now. With half the "Lebron drama." He just goes out and plays his game and...……..wins.

It helps when you are surrounded by three other all starts, at least two of which will be future hall of famers. LeBron has borderline all star Kevin Love and he seems to be hurt as often as he plays.

[Inner Dirt]

If you want to discuss how basketball has evolved I think the biggest difference I noticed in 50 years of watching sports is how far the women's game has progressed, even in the last 20 years. The women appear a lot more athletic and talented than they were just a couple decades ago.

[ronsmac]

It helps when you are surrounded by three other all starts, at least two of which will be future hall of famers. LeBron has borderline all star Kevin Love and he seems to be hurt as often as he plays.Boderline is being generous. The best move gs made was not trading Klay for Love 4 yrs ago.

[lansdale]

It helps when you are surrounded by three other all starts, at least two of which will be future hall of famers. LeBron has borderline all star Kevin Love and he seems to be hurt as often as he plays.

Wow, still no love for Love. KL should take the blame for LBJ losing championships? I don't know what the deal with his health is -- he's had multiple injuries throughout the last 1/3 of the season and is now out on the concussion protocol. Doesn't look like he'll be any kind of factor in the Finals. But let's remember LBJ with a healthy Love and a healthy Kyrie last year, still had their asses handed to them by a much better team -- by consensus one of the best ever -- and their swift demise is even more assured this year.

'Borderline All-Star' eh -- it's gonna kill you when Love makes that trip to Springfield. ;-).

[lansdale]

Boderline is being generous. The best move gs made was not trading Klay for Love 4 yrs ago.

As with most of their front office stuff, not making that trade made sense -- KT is a great 3-pt. shooter and had the quickness to fit in perfectly with the up-tempo offense they were planning to install. But does that mean KT is a more vaulable player than KL -- no, and the stats bear it out. They're just about equal as scorers, but Love has a huge (11-3) edge in rebounding, which gives a sizable career advantage in PER (22-16) and, WS48 (.18-.11).

Some interesting incidental stuff in here. e.g. Love and Klay and nearly identical in playoff 3-pt. shooting %, (Love-.411, Klay-408), and also in scoring per 100 possessions (ca. 25 pts.). But overall, as with their career numbers, Love has a decisive edge.

I've come to the conclusion that the reason so many fans hate Love is that his lack of speed and hops make him so unsuited to today's game. I get that. But he's still going to the HOF ;-).





https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id1_select=Kevin+Love&player_id1=loveke01&player_id2_hint=Klay+Thompson&player_id2_select=Klay+Thompson&player_id2=thompkl01&idx=players

[cj]

Wow, still no love for Love. KL should take the blame for LBJ losing championships? I don't know what the deal with his health is -- he's had multiple injuries throughout the last 1/3 of the season and is now out on the concussion protocol. Doesn't look like he'll be any kind of factor in the Finals. But let's remember LBJ with a healthy Love and a healthy Kyrie last year, still had their asses handed to them by a much better team -- by consensus one of the best ever -- and their swift demise is even more assured this year.

'Borderline All-Star' eh -- it's gonna kill you when Love makes that trip to Springfield. ;-).

If Love were in the west these days he wouldn't sniff the all star game. He hasn't made a an All NBA team in a while, and made only one second team and one third team in his career. I don't think I've been very wrong about him at all. He is a decent player but he should never have been a max player.

[cj]

As with most of their front office stuff, not making that trade made sense -- KT is a great 3-pt. shooter and had the quickness to fit in perfectly with the up-tempo offense they were planning to install. But does that mean KT is a more vaulable player than KL -- no, and the stats bear it out. They're just about equal as scorers, but Love has a huge (11-3) edge in rebounding, which gives a sizable career advantage in PER (22-16) and, WS48 (.18-.11).

Some interesting incidental stuff in here. e.g. Love and Klay and nearly identical in playoff 3-pt. shooting %, (Love-.411, Klay-408), and also in scoring per 100 possessions (ca. 25 pts.). But overall, as with their career numbers, Love has a decisive edge.

I've come to the conclusion that the reason so many fans hate Love is that his lack of speed and hops make him so unsuited to today's game. I get that. But he's still going to the HOF ;-).





https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id1_select=Kevin+Love&player_id1=loveke01&player_id2_hint=Klay+Thompson&player_id2_select=Klay+Thompson&player_id2=thompkl01&idx=players

The difference is Thompson is a very good defender. Love is mediocre, at best. Cavs were -12 with Love on the floor in the Boston series, +20 without him. I doubt that is a fluke. He is a better version of Ryan Anderson.

[ronsmac]

The difference is Thompson is a very good defender. Love is mediocre, at best. Cavs were -12 with Love on the floor in the Boston series, +20 without him. I doubt that is a fluke. He is a better version of Ryan Anderson. Comparing Thompson to love is insulting to anyone who's ever played basketball or watched a game on television.

[lansdale]

If Love were in the west these days he wouldn't sniff the all star game. He hasn't made a an All NBA team in a while, and made only one second team and one third team in his career. I don't think I've been very wrong about him at all. He is a decent player but he should never have been a max player.

Love made his first three All-Star games while playing in the west, which, I think we can agree, has been the better conference for over a decade. During the summer of 2014, when there was so much noise over whether the Cavs should trade their first-round draft picks, Bennett and Wiggins for Love, with most LBJ fans begging him not to, the Cavs (or most likely, LBJ) pulled the trigger on the deal for Love, who he badly wanted to join them. As I remember, you were on the 'no-trade' side of this debate at the time. I don't think that anyone would argue today that Cavs should have kept Wiggins and Bennett. Re the max deal, that's a legal and technical matter which doesn't cover the full scope of any player's ability and isn't intended to. From that point of view, the compensation of the, let's say second-tier players like Love, is excessive compared with the the league's first tier. I get why many fans may not like this, but that's what the union wanted. You can't blame any player for making the best deal they possibly can.

As things stand, depending on his health, Love will likely be traded this summer, although difficult to say if LBJ will stay, asssuming to Finals appearance next year. I just think it's too bad that, given the ongoing drama surrounding Lebron, and his quest for a championship, he became a punching bag for fans frustrated that he wasn't better -- as if there was some other PF (other than prime Tim Duncan or Karl Malone) the Cavs could have brought in to win more titles.

[lansdale]

The difference is Thompson is a very good defender. Love is mediocre, at best. Cavs were -12 with Love on the floor in the Boston series, +20 without him. I doubt that is a fluke. He is a better version of Ryan Anderson.

I don't really want to get into an extended debate on this -- anyone interested can look at the numbers for themselves -- or not. Agreed that Thompson is a better defender than Love at times, but why does Love have a better Drtg for this year -- in fact, Hollinger's DRPM ranks Klay at #36 for 2-guards -- I was surprised when I saw this -- Love was #29 among centers. Re the on/off stats, we can both cherry pick this stuff forever -- KT has been -10 overall throughout this year's playoffs. Maybe worth remembering they're both somewhat banged up at the moment.

Ryan Anderson -- c'mon man. Yes, he is a good 3-ball guy, and would be KL if he also averaged 11 boards throughout his career instead of five, which is why he has 0 All Star appearances, instead of KL's five.

[lansdale]

Comparing Thompson to love is insulting to anyone who's ever played basketball or watched a game on television.

Wow -- sounds like I insulted a lot of people -- including myself, since I have engaged in both of these activities. Since you didn't really respond to anything I posted -- to each his own.

[ronsmac]

[QUOTE=lansdale;2323528]Wow -- sounds like I insulted a lot of people -- including myself, since I have engaged in both of these activities. Since you didn't really respond to anything I posted -- to each his own.[/QUOTE:p:popcorn:] Thompson scored 37 in 1/4 and 60 in a game on a great team loves favorite shot is the 5 foot jump hook that he clanks off the back of the rim. for the most part he's been terrible in the playoffs .put him on a bad team and sure he'll get 20 points a game while they lose by 15 every game. I've been praying for him to be better for 4 years. I was tricked like most people were by just looking at his numbers in Minnesota.

[Robert Fischer]

(IMHO) Love is a slightly better player than Klay.

Neither guy is some amazing warrior that hates losing and carries teams. If I wanted to talk-up a guy, I kinda want that character if he's not a super-talent, but these are both good pieces.

Two very different types of pieces (other than their roles occasionally overlapping as 3-point threats).

Love's edge mostly comes from his rebounding. He's not just getting default rebounds, but he actually understands and capitalizes on consistently good rebounding positioning. He plays the angles and then he's solid enough to control the rebound when it bounces where it's supposed to.

As 'pure' basketball players it's fairly one-sided in Love's favor. In terms of 'fit' it's debatable that Klay is a better fit for GSW.

Klay really fits in well with that Golden State offense. Draymond/Klay do a fine job of fitting their specific team roles as well or better than Love/JRSmith.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

GSW -12.5
O/U 217


Seems almost impossible to take the points even while getting a bundle. Gotta believe this is gonna be an absolute beatdown in Game 1.

[cj]

Probably the worst officiated last 5 minutes of a game I've ever seen. And every missed call went the way of GS.

[Inner Dirt]

Probably the worst officiated last 5 minutes of a game I've ever seen. And every missed call went the way of GS.


And that would have all been meaningless if JR Smith knew the game was tied and made that 6 footer he could have had when he grabbed that rebound with 4 seconds left. The worst thing was he tried defending his actions instead of owning the mistake.

[cj]

And that would have all been meaningless if JR Smith knew the game was tied and made that 6 footer he could have had when he grabbed that rebound with 4 seconds left. The worst thing was he tried defending his actions instead of owning the mistake.

KD was right on him so I doubt it would have been easy, but inexcusable to be that brain dead. My old 51 year old ass jumped up off the couch in disbelief as soon as he started dribbling the ball out.

[ronsmac]

And that would have all been meaningless if JR Smith knew the game was tied and made that 6 footer he could have had when he grabbed that rebound with 4 seconds left. The worst thing was he tried defending his actions instead of owning the mistake.The play at the end of the 1st half was nothing to write home about either.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

KD was right on him so I doubt it would have been easy, but inexcusable to be that brain dead. My old 51 year old ass jumped up off the couch in disbelief as soon as he started dribbling the ball out.


There were so many mishaps late in that game it is ridiculous.


Not sure why Cleveland wasn't calling a timeout anyway if they got the rebound. They obviously had no plans if that happened, and then brain dead JR had another 'moment'.



Cavs and LeBron have to be absolutely sick today. Even with all the bad calls and crap that happened, they had that game won.

[cj]

There were so many mishaps late in that game it is ridiculous.


Not sure why Cleveland wasn't calling a timeout anyway if they got the rebound. They obviously had no plans if that happened, and then brain dead JR had another 'moment'.



Cavs and LeBron have to be absolutely sick today. Even with all the bad calls and crap that happened, they had that game won.

In that case you generally don't want a timeout if your guy gets a rebound in the paint. The plan is to go back up and score, no?

[Lemon Drop Husker]

In that case you generally don't want a timeout if your guy gets a rebound in the paint. The plan is to go back up and score, no?


I don't think he really had control of the ball till he was bent over moving out of the lane. But yes, he should have been trying to go back up with the ball, and when he didn't a TO should have been called by somebody wearing a Cavs uni or on the bench.

[Valuist]

(IMHO) Love is a slightly better player than Klay.

Neither guy is some amazing warrior that hates losing and carries teams. If I wanted to talk-up a guy, I kinda want that character if he's not a super-talent, but these are both good pieces.

Two very different types of pieces (other than their roles occasionally overlapping as 3-point threats).

Love's edge mostly comes from his rebounding. He's not just getting default rebounds, but he actually understands and capitalizes on consistently good rebounding positioning. He plays the angles and then he's solid enough to control the rebound when it bounces where it's supposed to.

As 'pure' basketball players it's fairly one-sided in Love's favor. In terms of 'fit' it's debatable that Klay is a better fit for GSW.

Klay really fits in well with that Golden State offense. Draymond/Klay do a fine job of fitting their specific team roles as well or better than Love/JRSmith.

Love is most definitely NOT better than Klay. Not even close, IMO. Klay could score 25/game on quite a few teams. But playing with two Hall of Famers cuts into his opportunities. Klay is better than Love at everything except rebounding.

[lansdale]

Didn't see the game, but checked some replays after hearing about the wild finish. J.R.'s screw-up a tough break for Cavs, but in a a series this one-sided, I think its effect is negligible. Interesting question though, that if J.R. had known the score, was going right back up the right play? I don't think so. KD was looming over him -- likely he blocks J.R.'s shot, and even he fouls, Cavs probably don't ge the call. Bad is it may be, a TO seems like the better option in this situation - 4.7 seconds left.

Depressing to contemplate Lebron trying to beat this great team with a bunch of Rent-a-Team guys, but amazing that he's taken them this far.

[lansdale]

[QUOTE=lansdale;2323528]Wow -- sounds like I insulted a lot of people -- including myself, since I have engaged in both of these activities. Since you didn't really respond to anything I posted -- to each his own.[/QUOTE:p:popcorn:] Thompson scored 37 in 1/4 and 60 in a game on a great team loves favorite shot is the 5 foot jump hook that he clanks off the back of the rim. for the most part he's been terrible in the playoffs .put him on a bad team and sure he'll get 20 points a game while they lose by 15 every game. I've been praying for him to be better for 4 years. I was tricked like most people were by just looking at his numbers in Minnesota.

I get why fans would like Thompson more and thinks he's a better player --his shooting motion is perfect, he's fast, and everything he does is fluid and athletic. He looks exactly like people think an NBA player should look. OTOH, because of his body-type, everything Love does, especially in the paint looks clunky, and he is slow. But those player efficiency #s measure the impact of everything a player does on the floor, not only scoring, which is mostly what fans care about, but boards, steals, turnovers, blocked shots etc., everything that has an impact on the outcome of a game. If you've never seen the movie 'Moneyball', it explains this all pretty well.

[lansdale]

(IMHO) Love is a slightly better player than Klay.

Neither guy is some amazing warrior that hates losing and carries teams. If I wanted to talk-up a guy, I kinda want that character if he's not a super-talent, but these are both good pieces.

Two very different types of pieces (other than their roles occasionally overlapping as 3-point threats).

Love's edge mostly comes from his rebounding. He's not just getting default rebounds, but he actually understands and capitalizes on consistently good rebounding positioning. He plays the angles and then he's solid enough to control the rebound when it bounces where it's supposed to.

As 'pure' basketball players it's fairly one-sided in Love's favor. In terms of 'fit' it's debatable that Klay is a better fit for GSW.

Klay really fits in well with that Golden State offense. Draymond/Klay do a fine job of fitting their specific team roles as well or better than Love/JRSmith.

This is more or less my take. But as the league continues to move in the direction of smaller, up-tempo lineups, based on shooting threes, seems like an open question whether someone like Love will be able to adapt. There are a few guys of his type still in the game -- LMA, the aging P. Gasol, but they're also better defenders. Will be interesting to watch.

[burnsy]

Didn't see the game, but checked some replays after hearing about the wild finish. J.R.'s screw-up a tough break for Cavs, but in a a series this one-sided, I think its effect is negligible. Interesting question though, that if J.R. had known the score, was going right back up the right play? I don't think so. KD was looming over him -- likely he blocks J.R.'s shot, and even he fouls, Cavs probably don't ge the call. Bad is it may be, a TO seems like the better option in this situation - 4.7 seconds left.

Depressing to contemplate Lebron trying to beat this great team with a bunch of Rent-a-Team guys, but amazing that he's taken them this far.




What most people leave out is these are the chumps he wanted. LeBron played a great game, scored 51 and lost anyway. This one probably makes this a short series.


This is one of the reasons I don't like the LeBron "drama" . He's a great player that thinks he can be GM and a coach...….which he can not, to get a team like he's facing now. Golden State is even short a key defensive player.


For all the BS controversy there was an entire 5 minute OT after the game was tied. No excuses, at that point they got drubbed and GS almost still covered in 5 minutes. As LeBron goes 0-4 in OT.

[cj]

[/B]


What most people leave out is these are the chumps he wanted. LeBron played a great game, scored 51 and lost anyway. This one probably makes this a short series.


This is one of the reasons I don't like the LeBron "drama" . He's a great player that thinks he can be GM and a coach...….which he can not, to get a team like he's facing now. Golden State is even short a key defensive player.


For all the BS controversy there was an entire 5 minute OT after the game was tied. No excuses, at that point they got drubbed and GS almost still covered in 5 minutes. As LeBron goes 0-4 in OT.

This is not the team LeBron wanted. They traded away Irving, clearly the second best player on the team. The team LeBron wanted won a title and might have won another if not for injuries.

[burnsy]

This is not the team LeBron wanted. They traded away Irving, clearly the second best player on the team. The team LeBron wanted won a title and might have won another if not for injuries.


Irving wanted out, which speaks volumes. And they made a huge deal at the deadline. You really think he was not behind most of that? He also pretty much chose the coach too. This is his team. Traded away my ass, the guy demanded a trade off a great year....lol....why?

[cj]

Irving wanted out, which speaks volumes. And they made a huge deal at the deadline. You really think he was not behind most of that? He also pretty much chose the coach too. This is his team. Traded away my ass, the guy demanded a trade off a great year....lol....why?

I'm saying LeBron did not want Kyrie to go. The team now, sure it is the one he wanted compared to the one they had before the trades. That team would have never made it this far.

I don't know why Kyrie wanted to be traded. I guess he wanted to be the man on a team which was never going to happen with LeBron. He isn't good enough. He also wasn't the man this year because he couldn't stay on the floor. He isn't a very sturdy basketball player. If you are knocking LeBron for Irving wanting to leave, I think that is a bit misguided.

What I will say is LeBron is the one that started all this player run super team stuff, so he has reaped what he has sown. He got one upped by Kevin Durant. I'm not saying he was wrong or anything, but he is either going to have to settle for three titles and a lot of Finals losses or he is going to have to leave Cleveland to find another super team that can beat GSW. Philly perhaps?

[ronsmac]

I'm saying LeBron did not want Kyrie to go. The team now, sure it is the one he wanted compared to the one they had before the trades. That team would have never made it this far.

I don't know why Kyrie wanted to be traded. I guess he wanted to be the man on a team which was never going to happen with LeBron. He isn't good enough. He also wasn't the man this year because he couldn't stay on the floor. He isn't a very sturdy basketball player. If you are knocking LeBron for Irving wanting to leave, I think that is a bit misguided.

What I will say is LeBron is the one that started all this player run super team stuff, so he has reaped what he has sown. He got one upped by Kevin Durant. I'm not saying he was wrong or anything, but he is either going to have to settle for three titles and a lot of Finals losses or he is going to have to leave Cleveland to find another super team that can beat GSW. Philly perhaps?I thought the Celtics started the so called super teams. Although one could say it was started by the 1976-1977 sixers.

[cj]

I thought the Celtics started the so called super teams. Although one could say it was started by the 1976-1977 sixers.

Sure, there have been super teams before, but that is why I said player run. I mean players talking together in the off season and basically plotting playing together, acting almost like GMs.

[lansdale]

I'm saying LeBron did not want Kyrie to go. The team now, sure it is the one he wanted compared to the one they had before the trades. That team would have never made it this far.

I don't know why Kyrie wanted to be traded. I guess he wanted to be the man on a team which was never going to happen with LeBron. He isn't good enough. He also wasn't the man this year because he couldn't stay on the floor. He isn't a very sturdy basketball player. If you are knocking LeBron for Irving wanting to leave, I think that is a bit misguided.

What I will say is LeBron is the one that started all this player run super team stuff, so he has reaped what he has sown. He got one upped by Kevin Durant. I'm not saying he was wrong or anything, but he is either going to have to settle for three titles and a lot of Finals losses or he is going to have to leave Cleveland to find another super team that can beat GSW. Philly perhaps?

You're right, LBJ very much wanted Kyrie to stay, and although he clearly stated that he didn't want to play with Lebron any longer, but pragmatically, also had to realize that this Cavs group was never going to beat GSW post-Durant. OTOH, Kyrie had no control over his trade destination, and Boston was not one of his preferred teams, but the place that the Cavs were able to get most value -- at least they thought so at the time.

Re the 'LBJ-created' teams, he's actually been very successful with this, having appeared in the last nine Finals and won three titles. He's actually done better than any post-career player-GM I can think of, except for Jerry West.
But he's also demonstrated the limits of this approach. As you said, he'll end up with more Finals losses than wins, which I think is inevitable when you're trying to put together a team on the fly, and grabbing whoever is available, as he has had to do, rather than drafting/developing your team like GSW, Bulls, Spurs, etc. This is why fan complaints about Lebron somehow manufacturing better teammates out of thin air to beat GSW are so ridiculous -- the best players, those he would need to beat GSW, are rarely ever available.

[ronsmac]

It's painful watching Love play basketball. On both ends.

[Inner Dirt]

It's painful watching Love play basketball. On both ends.


I always thought JR Smith was the weak link on that team of those that got a lot of minutes. I wasn't shocked at what he did at the end of game 1, he makes more than his fair share of bonehead plays.

[ronsmac]

I always thought JR Smith was the weak link on that team of those that got a lot of minutes. I wasn't shocked at what he did at the end of game 1, he makes more than his fair share of bonehead plays.
Jr has been pretty much useless the entire season but expectations are so low that it doesn't surprise anyone. love is an undeserved max player who's 6 ft 10 in tall yet a 40% career playoff shooter and for the most part a liability defensively. The strongest part of his game has been his deadly free throw shooting.

[cj]

Jr has been pretty much useless the entire season but expectations are so low that it doesn't surprise anyone. love is an undeserved max player who's 6 ft 10 in tall yet a 40% career playoff shooter and for the most part a liability defensively. The strongest part of his game has been his deadly free throw shooting.

Even the announcers were all over Love last game. He is a victim of the times. His game just doesn't translate to today's style of basketball. He appeared to have phoned it in during G2.

[Valuist]

This is not the team LeBron wanted. They traded away Irving, clearly the second best player on the team. The team LeBron wanted won a title and might have won another if not for injuries.

LeBron IS the defacto GM of the team.

The team that won a title benefitted from a confluence of circumstances in which everything fell into place. And they still barely got it done. Last year was what should've happened two years ago.

[cj]

LeBron IS the defacto GM of the team.

The team that won a title benefitted from a confluence of circumstances in which everything fell into place. And they still barely got it done. Last year was what should've happened two years ago.

I mostly agree, though he did not want to trade Kyrie. He got beat by KD at his own game as I mentioned earlier. The difference is KD didn't GM the team, he just found a crazy set of circumstances that allowed a 73 win team to be able to add a superstar.

[burnsy]

The King, met the Assassin and it was a beat down. KD MVP. 25-37 last two games, daggers in game 3!

[Inner Dirt]

The King, met the Assassin and it was a beat down. KD MVP. 25-37 last two games, daggers in game 3!


He flat out carried the team as Steph and Klay had off nights. If KD has anything less than the A+ game he played the Cavs win.

[ronsmac]

He flat out carried the team as Steph and Klay had off nights. If KD has anything less than the A+ game he played the Cavs win.
KD was and is fantastic and even though he can score on anyone, I cringed everytime Hill or Love were switched on him. Love had a decent game and was once again deadly at the line but defensively OMG. What disaster. For those smarter than me, why the hell does Hill get so many minutes? Picked on defensively, average handles, no creative passing,mediocre shooter, just average size.

[burnsy]

He flat out carried the team as Steph and Klay had off nights. If KD has anything less than the A+ game he played the Cavs win.


He did, the King is not the only one that can carry a team. He did the same thing to Cleveland last year. Went in their house and broke their will and hearts.


Of course, LeBron is probably the best player but KD is under rated by the media and fans. The difference is not much if there is any. I've never seen a guy that size move and shoot like he does. You just can't guard that. But Cleveland's gotta do better than that. The look on his face says he relishes playing that part. Probably gets sick of hearing the BS.


Ronsmac is right about the Cavs "D" too. The game plan of switches has been a joke for two series now. KD calls for a pick and its all over. The Cavs need an enforcer that can play defense. That's what they've been struggling most with. They just cant stop or slow down the big guns in this league. The Rockets would probably be doing the same thing to them. I think they stuck Hill in there cause everyone else wanted no part of that job.

[Inner Dirt]

Is it time to put up the "Where does Lebron sign?", poll? Chris Bosch said he will go to Houston, I heard that on Fox radio today while running errands.

[cj]

Is it time to put up the "Where does Lebron sign?", poll? Chris Bosch said he will go to Houston, I heard that on Fox radio today while running errands.

I'm not sure where he would go. Houston wouldn't be a great fit in my opinion with Paul and Harden already being ball dominant. Philly is the same with Simmons but I think that could work better than Houston with Simmons being so young.

[ronsmac]

Is it time to put up the "Where does Lebron sign?", poll? Chris Bosch said he will go to Houston, I heard that on Fox radio today while running errands.
Yes it is.

[ronsmac]

Halftime. Love 2-10 a minus 14. Hill 0 pts a minus 19 yet lue sticks with these two. LMFAO. We know the Cavs can't win but Lue isn't even trying.

[LemonSoupKid]

If you want to discuss how basketball has evolved I think the biggest difference I noticed in 50 years of watching sports is how far the women's game has progressed, even in the last 20 years. The women appear a lot more athletic and talented than they were just a couple decades ago.

:puke:

[Inner Dirt]

Halftime. Love 2-10 a minus 14. Hill 0 pts a minus 19 yet lue sticks with these two. LMFAO. We know the Cavs can't win but Lue isn't even trying.




It is not like he has a lot of options.

[burnsy]

I get called a hater because i understand that Americans are exposed to media, hype, propaganda. Its even pervasive in sports reporting. I am a realist. I deal in reality not TV land. That's an advantage.

These people are human beings they are not super heros......that's for comic books AND MOVIES.


But here's some proof. LeBron just got drubbed....again. Brady was laying on his ass as the ball flew away with the game. Tiger is still "headline news" when he's in 23rd place and he has not won in years. People actually believe the garbage and react negatively when you point out reality. Sometimes its too easy. :lol:

But most of the clowns on TV will say you can't bet against them (these players). There was one guy that predicted a sweep. The rest poo pooed him like it could not happen. The mantra, "They'll play better at home." "Role players". They stunk the joint up at home. Defense non existent like i pointed out last year. Other than game 1 , it was a beat down.

You tell them you are being lied to, not just in sports.......on everything, down to our policies and what should be legal.........Reefer Madness :bang::lol:

You tell people and they actually look at you like you are the one lying. :bang:;)

[cj]

I get called a hater because i understand that Americans are exposed to media, hype, propaganda. Its even pervasive in sports reporting. I am a realist. I deal in reality not TV land. That's an advantage.

These people are human beings they are not super heros......that's for comic books AND MOVIES.


But here's some proof. LeBron just got drubbed....again. Brady was laying on his ass as the ball flew away with the game. Tiger is still "headline news" when he's in 23rd place and he has not won in years. People actually believe the garbage and react negatively when you point out reality. Sometimes its too easy. :lol:

But most of the clowns on TV will say you can't bet against them (these players). There was one guy that predicted a sweep. The rest poo pooed him like it could not happen. The mantra, "They'll play better at home." "Role players". They stunk the joint up at home. Defense non existent like i pointed out last year. Other than game 1 , it was a beat down.

You tell them you are being lied to, not just in sports.......on everything, down to our policies and what should be legal.........Reefer Madness :bang::lol:

You tell people and they actually look at you like you are the one lying. :bang:;)

Who in their right mind was advocating betting on LeBron in this series? #FakeNews

[ronsmac]

The LeBron to the Lakers odds keep dropping. As low as -120.

[Inner Dirt]

The LeBron to the Lakers odds keep dropping. As low as -120.


I hate the Lakers with a passion, that would suck. I also read on ESPN that Kawhi Leonard wants to be a Laker.

[Inner Dirt]

With the Lebron and Kawhi to the Lakers rumors the Lakers are now 7-1 to win the 2019 NBA finals on Vegas Insider.

[lamboguy]

the Celtics should get their players back next year and they will be pretty tough to beat in the East with James going West.

[ronsmac]

With the Lebron and Kawhi to the Lakers rumors the Lakers are now 7-1 to win the 2019 NBA finals on Vegas Insider.If everything falls into place they will be a strong 2nd choice. It could make the NBA fun again. I'm excited.

[elysiantraveller]

If LeBron goes to the West the NBA playoffs will be much more enjoyable. The two teams that have a chance for him are Houston and LA and either will be contender. (Assuming LA gets George and Kawhi)

In the East you will have the Celtics reigning supreme again with the up and coming Sixers.

[cj]

If LeBron goes to the West the NBA playoffs will be much more enjoyable. The two teams that have a chance for him are Houston and LA and either will be contender. (Assuming LA gets George and Kawhi)

In the East you will have the Celtics reigning supreme again with the up and coming Sixers.

I don't see any way the Lakers get LeBron, Kawhi, and PG. Also, they all kind of play the same position.

[elysiantraveller]

I don't see any way the Lakers get LeBron, Kawhi, and PG. Also, they all kind of play the same position.

Doesn't it depend on how much PG wants to make?

They have room for two max deals I think.

[Tee]

Who is really going to take the chance with an injury plagued Kawhi Leonard?

[cj]

Doesn't it depend on how much PG wants to make?

They have room for two max deals I think.

That biggest reason I said it is because I doubt the Spurs would trade Leonard to the Lakers, not about PG. PG to the Lakers is not a lock in any case.

[Valuist]

Who is really going to take the chance with an injury plagued Kawhi Leonard?

Minnesota might. Thibs loves players like Kawhi.

[elysiantraveller]

That biggest reason I said it is because I doubt the Spurs would trade Leonard to the Lakers, not about PG. PG to the Lakers is not a lock in any case.

That's true.

To keep him out of the West.

[lansdale]

As some have said here, very doubtful that KL ends up in L.A. - Spurs don't want to help a division rival -- and it's even more doubtful therefore that Lebron shows up w/o KL there. But PG to L.A. -- maybe. My guesses for where these three FAs end up.

KL
1. Philadelphia
2. San Antonio

LBJ
1. Cleveland
2. Houston

PG
1.OKC
2. L.A.

Sixers have a ton of cap room, so could accomodate either KL or LBJ. But LBJ only has a good chance to beat GSW at HOU. Will everyone take a cut to fit LBJ under the cap there -- sounds like yes -- only question is whether he's tired of moving around at this age. Spurs still begging Kawhi to stay -- will it work? PG sounds happy at OKC -- 70-30 he remains there. Hopefully they can dump Melo.

[jimmyb]

LeBron signs with the Lakers.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/DevinNunes/status/1013600479287230464

[FakeNameChanged]

If LeBron goes to the West the NBA playoffs will be much more enjoyable. The two teams that have a chance for him are Houston and LA and either will be contender. (Assuming LA gets George and Kawhi)

In the East you will have the Celtics reigning supreme again with the up and coming Sixers.
Will the Cavaliers now be joining the Continental League?

[Inner Dirt]

Will the Cavaliers now be joining the Continental League?


Without Lebron they will be lucky to win 25 games.

[cj]

Without Lebron they will be lucky to win 25 games.

Kevin Love takeover time! :)

[Inner Dirt]

Without Lebron they will be lucky to win 25 games.

Kevin Love takeover time! :)


Didn't the T-Wolves average 25 wins a season when Love was there? To me Love is one of those guys who doesn't look as good in the game as he does in the box score.

[cj]

Didn't the T-Wolves average 25 wins a season when Love was there? To me Love is one of those guys who doesn't look as good in the game as he does in the box score.

I was joking, I've never been a Kevin Love fan for the same reasons you mention. I've gotten some grief for that, and also some that agree.

[Inner Dirt]

Didn't the T-Wolves average 25 wins a season when Love was there? To me Love is one of those guys who doesn't look as good in the game as he does in the box score.

I was joking, I've never been a Kevin Love fan for the same reasons you mention. I've gotten some grief for that, and also some that agree.


I thought you could be joking, I get members mixed up outside of political views. I think Kevin Love is either overrated or underrated by fans. Put me in the group that doesn't think much of his impact on the game. Maybe it is because I feel he would have been a better fit if he played in a different era.

[lansdale]

Kevin Love takeover time! :)

Love among the few players the Lakers are considering trading for -- along with Demar Derozan and a few others. Whatever happens, looks like Lakers are willing to dump their young players and go into win-now mode for Lebron.


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2784325-lakers-trade-rumors-damian-lillard-kevin-love-john-wall-more-deals-targeted

[cj]

Love among the few players the Lakers are considering trading for -- along with Demar Derozan and a few others. Whatever happens, looks like Lakers are willing to dump their young players and go into win-now mode for Lebron.


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2784325-lakers-trade-rumors-damian-lillard-kevin-love-john-wall-more-deals-targeted

No way LeBron is signing off on a Kevin Love trade. I doubt Love would either if he had a choice. Kawhi seems to be showing some reluctance to team up with LeBron now as well.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

No way LeBron is signing off on a Kevin Love trade. I doubt Love would either if he had a choice. Kawhi seems to be showing some reluctance to team up with LeBron now as well.


Firm believer in Kawhi Leonard being the most overrated player in the entire NBA.

[thaskalos]

Firm believer in Kawhi Leonard being the most overrated player in the entire NBA.

You can call him overrated...but you certainly can't call him OVERWORKED.

[AndyC]

Firm believer in Kawhi Leonard being the most overrated player in the entire NBA.

How so? The guy is a top defensive player every year. His offense has improved significantly each year. He gets 25 points a game and shuts down the other teams best player. I would take 5 just like Kawhi and take my chances against the rest of the league.

[cj]

How so? The guy is a top defensive player every year. His offense has improved significantly each year. He gets 25 points a game and shuts down the other teams best player. I would take 5 just like Kawhi and take my chances against the rest of the league.

It will be interesting to see how he does away from the Spurs. Always possible he was a system guy. We haven't seen that much with the Spurs because for the most part the best players have stayed there for their entire careers. I think he is a star but there is that small part that leaves some doubt.

Also, he either had a serious injury or he mentally didn't want to play. Whichever it is is a negative in my opinion.

[Valuist]

Firm believer in Kawhi Leonard being the most overrated player in the entire NBA.

That's nuts. Defense is almost always underrated and this guy has been a top 5 defender in the league for a number of years.

Look at the series a year ago against the Warriors. With Kawhi in, they led the mighty Warriors by over 20 in the second half of game one, only to see Leonard get hurt and their lead totally collapse.

[lansdale]

No way LeBron is signing off on a Kevin Love trade. I doubt Love would either if he had a choice. Kawhi seems to be showing some reluctance to team up with LeBron now as well.

I was surprised by this rumor too, but if there's any truth to it, I would be amazed if LBJ wasn't first asked to sign off on any deal regarding Love or any other player. It was Lebron who wanted Rondo there. Love has said he would like to play with LBJ for the rest of his career, but that could have been strictly PR. There seems to be little doubt that he would like to get out of Cleveland, and he can walk next year, so Cavs are in similar position to Spurs w/Kawhi. -- they don't want to lose him and get nothing in return. Re Kawhi -- word is he still wants Lakers, but Spurs demanding too much. Makes sense -- as one pundit has said, if Spurs traded Kawhi, he would be the best player traded since Shaq to Heat in 2005 -- as we know Kobe stupidly forced that.

[AndyC]

It will be interesting to see how he does away from the Spurs. Always possible he was a system guy. We haven't seen that much with the Spurs because for the most part the best players have stayed there for their entire careers. I think he is a star but there is that small part that leaves some doubt.

Also, he either had a serious injury or he mentally didn't want to play. Whichever it is is a negative in my opinion.

A "system guy" usually applies to offense. He is a lockdown defensive player. As for his offense, he can play with his back to the basket and he can also square up and take his jumper. His 3-point shot has improved remarkably since his rookie year. He is known for his hard work and he keeps out of trouble off the court.

His durability is certainly the biggest concern and probably the biggest negative for any suitor.

[Robert Fischer]

So what is the deal with Kawhi's injuries? Is that all behind him?

Kawhi is a good compliment to LeBron. I think the biggest question with that pairing becomes whether they fit with Lonzo Ball.
If that is your perimeter, then Kawhi has to take even more 3's than he currently takes(I think he takes 4 or 5 currently, and you'd need 7-10 from him). That or utilize a stretch-4 who jacks up some 3's to stretch the D. -Otherwise you've got a defense that is contracting. Kawhi isn't really a passer. Ball isn't a shooter. Ball and LeBron taking turns creating, and Kawhi and LeBron taking turns scoring... It's a potent lineup for sure, you just wonder about the fluidity.

[cj]

I'll have to read more, but I don't think Kawhi can just sit out a year and become a free agent. He certainly won't get paid if he does it but I think it basically freezes his contract. I'd call that bluff even if not true. Two years of not playing basketball is not easy to overcome. And it is still a LOT of money he is leaving on the table.

[AndyC]

I'll have to read more, but I don't think Kawhi can just sit out a year and become a free agent. He certainly won't get paid if he does it but I think it basically freezes his contract. I'd call that bluff even if not true. Two years of not playing basketball is not easy to overcome. And it is still a LOT of money he is leaving on the table.

I doubt that money is a leading motivator for Kawhi. See https://moneyinc.com/nba-star-kawhi-leonards-unorthodox-style-saving-money/
His personality also doesn't suggest that he is seeking the limelight when he finds his next team.

[cj]

I doubt that money is a leading motivator for Kawhi. See https://moneyinc.com/nba-star-kawhi-leonards-unorthodox-style-saving-money/
His personality also doesn't suggest that he is seeking the limelight when he finds his next team.

I wasn't saying that it was, but if it is any kind of motivator at all he is leaving a ton of money on the table if he walks at the end of the year. I don't believe for one second that isn't why he wants to be traded instead of walking personally.