We're in trouble.

[Denny]

Went to the OTB yesterday for a day of horseplaying. Outside of a few regulars, the place was empty - on a Saturday. The kids with their dad outside trying to collect some money for little league had nothing to do but stand there.

After watching the first couple of races, I realized I should have just stayed home or found something else to do. Nothing but 4 and 5 horse fields everywhere, including what is supposed to be the premier meet, Keeneland.

Boring, unless you like that sort of thing.

The first half of every card was the same just about everywhere. I'll wait till later in the day to go next week.

If I go at all.

When I went home, put on the Harness racing and found that things were just as bad. Tracks that used to card full fields were running races with 6 or 7.
Meadowlands, the highest handling track, had 10 races and only half of them had 8 horses or more!

We're in trouble as horseplayers.

[GMB@BP]

Who knew!

As long as we got slots and CRW teams there is nothing to see here, move along.

[horses4courses]

Wait until they add sports wagering there.
Place will be packed every NFL Sunday.

[Denny]

Who knew!

As long as we got slots and CRW teams there is nothing to see here, move along.

Where do want me to move to? A casino.

[Denny]

Wait until they add sports wagering there.
Place will be packed every NFL Sunday.

Funny, but, I actually talked to someone there about that. Might be the only thing that will save the joint.

[horses4courses]

Funny, but, I actually talked to someone there about that. Might be the only thing that will save the joint.

Yes.....the joint might be saved.
Horse wagering will take a back seat.

[Denny]

Yes.....the joint might be saved.
Horse wagering will take a back seat.

That's better than no seat at all.
Which is what you'll have if they close.
Some sports bettors might infuse new life into the place and might make some bets while watching their games - which take hours.
They can fill some time with horseracing, which only take minutes.
I'm viewing it as a good thing, not bad.

[Fred Mertz]

Where do want me to move to? A casino.

In rough percentages:

Track takes 20%

Casino slots take 8%

I realize there is no skill involved with slots and sometimes you win.

Racing is a mental challenge with all the info available and more challenging than slots.

I simplify these two takeout rates. I enjoy watching and sometimes betting the ponies. Especially at this time of the year.

[horses4courses]

That's better than no seat at all.
Which is what you'll have if they close.
Some sports bettors might infuse new life into the place and might make some bets while watching their games - which take hours.
They can fill some time with horseracing, which only take minutes.
I'm viewing it as a good thing, not bad.

I agree.
Been around it in books in Nevada for a long time.
If those had been race bets only, they'd have shut down years ago.

[kdavis7837]

I go to a dive in Everett Wa above a closed night club that you have to walk through to get to the stairs, half the monitors are old big box type tv’s and the place smells like mold, but the place was packed, just about everyone knows everyone else and half stand and yell during the race, the other half insults the person that gave him bad advice ,no food except a vending machine no drinks except plain old coffee that you have to make yourself most of the time, have to walk behind a closed run down bar to get to the bathroom, man I love that place, don’t know how they get away with codes, fire ect. But have never had a bad time there

[burnsy]

I still remember when you couldn't bet off track out of Saratoga County (before the Simulcast/Racino/computers). We had to cross the river in Mechanicsville. The joint was at the golf course and was the equivalent of a Caddy Shack or tree fort. Guys spit on the floor and you had to bet letters corresponding to the numbers. The call was audio cause they couldn't show the live feed......Ah......the good old days........People would walk over broken glass to place a bet.

You are right its been down hill since..........:lol:
Its not the quality of the places, its the quality of the product that's sunk.
The marginal propensity to bet corresponds with the game and its product.

[castaway01]

That's better than no seat at all.
Which is what you'll have if they close.
Some sports bettors might infuse new life into the place and might make some bets while watching their games - which take hours.
They can fill some time with horseracing, which only take minutes.
I'm viewing it as a good thing, not bad.

You're talking about the quality of races to wager on though. That won't change with sports wagering.

[Denny]

You're talking about the quality of races to wager on though. That won't change with sports wagering.

I'm beginning to care less and less about "quality" if all it means is 4 and 5-horse fields.

There was more interest at the OTB by the regulars in what was happening at Gulfstream than Keeneland, because the fields were bigger.

I'd rather bet a nw3500 harness race with a full field than the open handicap with 5.

Same for thoroughbreds. I don't give a damn about the class.

I think the coverage, by turf writers in particular, has been promoting the sport the wrong way forever.

Maybe I'm wrong, but, I don't think so.

[Denny]

Another bad sign was the Charles Town Classic - a race everybody covering the sport had to cover, because of the inflated purse - goes with a field of 7. Is that all you can get for $1.2 million in casino dole?

Money leaves the state as usual - the second year in a row it ends up in Frank Stronach's pocket. (Thank goodness Edgar Prado was the winning jockey and for that I'm very happy.)

[CincyHorseplayer]

Your house is a more comfortable OTB. Who gives a ****?!

Live racing at the summer venue starts here in the Nati next week. Can't wait to be on track!

[Denny]

Why so nasty, Cincy? And what does it have to do with it?

[CincyHorseplayer]

Why so nasty, Cincy? And what does it have to do with it?

I honestly was not trying to be nasty. I just don't get congregating at a betting site with no live racing. If it's empty it's because of the obvious IMO. It's more comfortable at home!

[biggestal99]

Your house is a more comfortable OTB. Who gives a ****?!

Live racing at the summer venue starts here in the Nati next week. Can't wait to be on track!

Same Here. Monmouth opens derby day this year. The wife and I are driving down. 5 buck parking. 5 buck admission. 2 buck rebate on a mystery voucher.(unless we are lucky at catch the 1000 buck voucher).

The great thing about being at the track you dont have to worry about video delays when betting in race.

and its derby day. should be quite a day.

Allan

[burnsy]

I honestly was not trying to be nasty. I just don't get congregating at a betting site with no live racing. If it's empty it's because of the obvious IMO. It's more comfortable at home!

That's not the point, its the fact that half or more of the races are not filled....causing a lack of interest. My point was that the places have actually evolved and the tracks are nicer.....but the racing has underdeveloped to the point of being 2nd rate. Sitting at home is great but it would be nice if people showed up at the live events.

[Denny]

The point of the thread is what burnsy pointed out.

It's not the OTB itself, mine is really pretty nice. A hell of a lot better than what the OTB's were like in NYC.

It's a place to congregate with fellow horseplayers and talk horses in person.

It's that the racing sucks for half the card. The product is bad.

I go to the track every year - Saratoga as much as I can. (I won't spend two and half hours driving to Aqueduct, or even Belmont anymore with all the tolls - to see a deserted grandstand.)

[Tom]

Wait until they add sports wagering there.
Place will be packed every NFL Sunday.

Finger Lakes tried something new with the NFL - Pick the PRos and Ponies. Yo picked twoo horse races and two NFL teams for a Pic4.
Aded chicken wings to the menu to boot!

Alas, poor FL, I knew her well.

People at the wings, watched the game, didn't bet, and we lost Sundays forever.

[CincyHorseplayer]

The point of the thread is what burnsy pointed out.

It's not the OTB itself, mine is really pretty nice. A hell of a lot better than what the OTB's were like in NYC.

It's a place to congregate with fellow horseplayers and talk horses in person.

It's that the racing sucks for half the card. The product is bad.

I go to the track every year - Saratoga as much as I can. (I won't spend two and half hours driving to Aqueduct, or even Belmont anymore with all the tolls - to see a deserted grandstand.)

I go to live racing. And Belterra really screwed up the live racing track setup. The old River Downs was far more comfortable and nice. I miss it. But I like being on track for live racing and playing and I like camaraderie between players. When there is no live racing I prefer betting from home. Now that I have my own printing press at home I love being snowed in during the winter playing races from down south!

[wisconsin]

I go to live racing. And Belterra really screwed up the live racing track setup. The old River Downs was far more comfortable and nice. I miss it. But I like being on track for live racing and playing and I like camaraderie between players. When there is no live racing I prefer betting from home. Now that I have my own printing press at home I love being snowed in during the winter playing races from down south!

We used to go to River Downs every Labor Day weekend, when they ran all turf Labor Days, with the exception of the Cradle on dirt. The finale was always a 2 1/4 mile Starter race on the grass. We quit going in the early '90's, I had my 4th kid, etc, was just too difficult. There was this really good Dixieland band that roamed the apron and grandstand. Always had a good time. Went again in the summer of 2016. Disappointment was my thought. They charged me for a spot to watch simulcast racing. I was able to go outside for the live races, but the puny grandstand did not do it for me.

[Parkview_Pirate]

For the first time since last spring, I downloaded and handicapped the cards from Aqu, Kee, GP and SA for Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Yup, "We're in Trouble" about sums it up.

There were a handful of interesting races to 'cap, but most fall into two categories - where the winner pays $6.40, or where the winner pays a bit more with a significant "improvement" in performance, not readily obvious from the PPs. That's not to say that some horses coming off some bad trips or rounding into form might not gleaned with intensive study, but there used to be a time when several longer shots could be selected from a card, and a couple of those would run well. Not any longer.

There's still some fun in it, but it's getting tougher.

[Denny]

If the premier meet currently running, Keeneland, can't fill their races....
Draw your own conclusions.

IMO, the only reason handles have been up around 10% some places is the new tax laws.
About the best thing the sport has experienced since simulcasting.

Otherwise, things are dreadful and getting worse. Where's the incentive to be a horseplayer? Small fields unless you like that sortvof thing, OR, you like what Gulfstream is selling?!
It does seem to be selling well to somebody.

Not to me.

[CincyHorseplayer]

If the premier meet currently running, Keeneland, can't fill their races....
Draw your own conclusions.

IMO, the only reason handles have been up around 10% some places is the new tax laws.
About the best thing the sport has experienced since simulcasting.

Otherwise, things are dreadful and getting worse. Where's the incentive to be a horseplayer? Small fields unless you like that sortvof thing, OR, you like what Gulfstream is selling?!
It does seem to be selling well to somebody.

Not to me.

You must dominantly be a dirt player. If so I agree. I'm a turf player and I get full fields and good prices fairly regularly. And I'm not locked into any one track or circuit or surface. I can 30 second handicap a 6 horse dirt field but will spend time with it if it is sizable. Maiden races especially with a good amount of firsters are nice havens for plays. Something most handicappers don't like. Most stakes are chalk oriented. Things are better than they ever have been in my play and I started in 1996. Not sure where you are looking at. Weekday cards though can be a drag nearly everywhere. I'd rather roll with Mahoning Valley, Will Rogers, or Zia on those days than Keeneland and Gulfstream.

[five-eighths]

Man all this talk of live racing :pout:

They just closed my track HP a couple of weeks ago on the day the horses were supposed to ship in at the last minute. Some drove 14 hours with their horses only to have to turn around and go back:mad:

So we were just left with a single harness track in Northville until that was just sold to a developer last week. At least they will be running there till 2020 but after that who knows? The owner says he wants to build a new track, but he also wants slot machines, good luck with that in Michigan.

Even though they ran mostly 4K, 5K claimers the attendance was good even if it was mostly for the cheap beer. They didn’t charge for parking or admission meant more money for betting for me. Even when you lose a little you still have a good time being outside with your buddies watching the crowd and betting the ponies.

Not having a local TB track to go to will definitely put a dent in my interest and amount or races I will bet. Might have to take a couple of road trips to get my fix of live TB racing.

[Denny]

Cincy,

You're right about me being primarily a main track player.
I made my own speed figures, but, ONLY for dirt.

Turf racing looks to me to be all about trips, with everyone slowing the pace and waiting for the final quarter-mile to go.
I really don't care for it.

So yes, my options are definetley limited. But, I think your going to see a reduction in field sizes in turf racing also. In fact, think it's already begun.
Just not as noticeable since fields are still bigger than on dirt. But, not by as much as they were. So watch out.

[AstrosFan]

I only play from home. Don't go to the track unless it's a top track for the experience and even then I'll play via my wagering app.

[CincyHorseplayer]

We used to go to River Downs every Labor Day weekend, when they ran all turf Labor Days, with the exception of the Cradle on dirt. The finale was always a 2 1/4 mile Starter race on the grass. We quit going in the early '90's, I had my 4th kid, etc, was just too difficult. There was this really good Dixieland band that roamed the apron and grandstand. Always had a good time. Went again in the summer of 2016. Disappointment was my thought. They charged me for a spot to watch simulcast racing. I was able to go outside for the live races, but the puny grandstand did not do it for me.

Love the Dixieland band! Been a while since I've been there on Labor Day weekend. I'm usually at the pool next door! Without adding on to what I've been griping about since they redid it, they just really took most of the life out of the place for a racing fan. At least in the old grandstand you had views from the top and could always find table space to work. Just jog a few steps down to the paddock. They have half the paddock closed off now before the race. So they screwed that up too. And the grandstand is a joke. They have dinky seating area with a canopy top. A canopy top! Then bleacher seats below in direct sun that nobody ever sits on. Downstairs is hemmed in by concrete columns with no table space and barely any tv's for simulcast. You get into the simulcast parlor and it seats 150 down from 750 and you can't even see an inch of the track. I do my running and make it work but they ruined the racing experience bigtime. If you don't reserve a seat the night before you will be relegated to standing all day on a weekend. It sucks. Plus same ghetto condition book and they slashed purses midway through the 1st meet! Yeah they love the racing fan!

[CincyHorseplayer]

Cincy,

You're right about me being primarily a main track player.
I made my own speed figures, but, ONLY for dirt.

Turf racing looks to me to be all about trips, with everyone slowing the pace and waiting for the final quarter-mile to go.
I really don't care for it.

So yes, my options are definetley limited. But, I think your going to see a reduction in field sizes in turf racing also. In fact, think it's already begun.
Just not as noticeable since fields are still bigger than on dirt. But, not by as much as they were. So watch out.

I always liked turf racing because of the finishes and it catered to class handicapping but I didn't really dig into it til the winter of 12-13. Assembled whatever there was out there written about it including pedigree. 5 years later and it was well worth the effort.

I think crop shrinkage is affecting what you say but I believe the crop size will balloon back up.

[Clocker]

One of the problems can be seen here:

http://www.equibase.com/live.cfm

Looking at the schedule for this Saturday, April 28, I see 33 tracks running T-Bred and Q-Horse races. Mostly T-Bred as far as I can tell. Even with a "normal" crop, that would seem to me to be excessive.

I am not familiar with the smaller tracks, but I have to assume that many of them are racinos, and that they are a lot more interested in running enough races to keep a gambling license than in catering to horse players. In any case, 33 tracks running has to be a glut, and too few horses spread over too many tracks has to be a big factor in short fields.

[AstrosFan]

Racetracks all over have been warned of short fields. It is going to get worse and racinos sure didnt save the game as everyone thought.

[JustRalph]

Racetracks all over have been warned of short fields. It is going to get worse and racinos sure didnt save the game as everyone thought.

Ten years ago another member and I (BillW) were sitting at Churchill Downs or maybe Keeneland (I’m getting old) when somebody at our table started talking about how much Racino money was going to be flowing into the game. The guy was celebrating the new money.

BillW explained how in five years the Casino guys won’t give a damn about racing, the field sizes would dwindle because the big trainers would be the only ones with horses etc

He pointed even further down the road and told us how the little guys won’t be able to compete in 10 years, at the windows or on the track. The celebration of new money continued.....

BillW was right.........

[Afleet]

Man all this talk of live racing :pout:

They just closed my track HP a couple of weeks ago on the day the horses were supposed to ship in at the last minute. Some drove 14 hours with their horses only to have to turn around and go back:mad:

So we were just left with a single harness track in Northville until that was just sold to a developer last week. At least they will be running there till 2020 but after that who knows? The owner says he wants to build a new track, but he also wants slot machines, good luck with that in Michigan.

Even though they ran mostly 4K, 5K claimers the attendance was good even if it was mostly for the cheap beer. They didn’t charge for parking or admission meant more money for betting for me. Even when you lose a little you still have a good time being outside with your buddies watching the crowd and betting the ponies.

Not having a local TB track to go to will definitely put a dent in my interest and amount or races I will bet. Might have to take a couple of road trips to get my fix of live TB racing.

Can't believe a state like Michigan can't support a racetrack. Is Arlington now your closest racetrack? You have probably already been, but AP is an excellent facility

[Denny]

Ten years ago another member and I (BillW) were sitting at Churchill Downs or maybe Keeneland (I’m getting old) when somebody at our table started talking about how much Racino money was going to be flowing into the game. The guy was celebrating the new money.

BillW explained how in five years the Casino guys won’t give a damn about racing, the field sizes would dwindle because the big trainers would be the only ones with horses etc

He pointed even further down the road and told us how the little guys won’t be able to compete in 10 years, at the windows or on the track. The celebration of new money continued.....

BillW was right.........

Bill certainly appears to have been spot-on.

So many good trainers have left the game in the last 5 - 10 years. So many names you just don't see any more in the PP's.

Some have given up trying to compete with the big outfits and have retired.
Some have taken the "if you can't beat them join them" route and are now assistants working for the big "super trainers". Some got jobs working for the tracks instead of being a trainer.

When you look at the stakes results every week, it's almost always the same names. The exceptions are few and don't repeat very often.

(Pletcher has won the Gulstream meet 15 times in a row now! Only Brown and Pletcher have a chance for Saratoga anymore. Asmussen in the Midwest. It goes on and on.)

Tracks don't seem to care either. Otherwise they'd be trying to put some limits in place, or do SOMETHING.

But hey, the tracks have got casino dole to pay their salaries and retirement packages - and bonuses.

----

Next week is the Derby, so will leave this topic alone for a little while, but, would like to keep the thread open.

But, feel free to keep commenting in the meantime while I sit out.

This isn't going away and I'll revisit this in the future.

Happy Derby next week everybody.

Denny

[Afleet]

Ten years ago another member and I (BillW) were sitting at Churchill Downs or maybe Keeneland (I’m getting old) when somebody at our table started talking about how much Racino money was going to be flowing into the game. The guy was celebrating the new money.

BillW explained how in five years the Casino guys won’t give a damn about racing, the field sizes would dwindle because the big trainers would be the only ones with horses etc

He pointed even further down the road and told us how the little guys won’t be able to compete in 10 years, at the windows or on the track. The celebration of new money continued.....

BillW was right.........

prophetic!

[Afleet]

Bill certainly appears to have been spot-on.

So many good trainers have left the game in the last 5 - 10 years. So many names you just don't see any more in the PP's.

Some have given up trying to compete with the big outfits and have retired.
Some have taken the "if you can't beat them join them" route and are now assistants working for the big "super trainers". Some got jobs working for the tracks instead of being a trainer.

When you look at the stakes results every week, it's almost always the same names. The exceptions are few and don't repeat very often.

(Pletcher has won the Gulstream meet 15 times in a row now! Only Brown and Pletcher have a chance for Saratoga anymore. Asmussen in the Midwest. It goes on and on.)

Tracks don't seem to care either. Otherwise they'd be trying to put some limits in place, or something.

But hey, the tracks have got casino dole to pay their salaries and retirement packages - and bonuses.

Next week is the Derby, so will leave this topic alone for a little while.

But, feel free to keep commenting in the meantime.

This isn't going away and I'll revisit this in the future.

Happy Derby next week everybody.

Denny

Looks like Cox might upset the applecart at KEE; leading the trainers standings w/a nice 50%+ win rate

[AstrosFan]

Can't believe a state like Michigan can't support a racetrack. Is Arlington now your closest racetrack? You have probably already been, but AP is an excellent facility



Gotta remember who owns AP and what they did to Calder

[Denny]

Reminder: This thread is not about going to the track and our experiences there.

It's about the state of the product we bet on, and the lack of interest by the general public. The decline in interest by off-track players (like at my OTB). The shrinkage in number of bet-able races due to small fields (in both thoroughbreds and harness) and so on.

See original post #1.

Thanks for staying on topic.

[Track Phantom]

Ten years ago another member and I (BillW) were sitting at Churchill Downs or maybe Keeneland (I’m getting old) when somebody at our table started talking about how much Racino money was going to be flowing into the game. The guy was celebrating the new money.

BillW explained how in five years the Casino guys won’t give a damn about racing, the field sizes would dwindle because the big trainers would be the only ones with horses etc

He pointed even further down the road and told us how the little guys won’t be able to compete in 10 years, at the windows or on the track. The celebration of new money continued.....

BillW was right.........
I admit I didn't give it much thought when racino's came on the scene but it hindsight shouldn't this have been obvious? Meaning, wouldn't larger purses inspire trainers to run less? $100k Maiden Special can be treated like a stakes race where they train up to the "big race". In yesteryear, wouldn't smaller purses required horses to earn more by racing in volume?

It seems like major decisions are made to the benefit of owners and trainers but the detriment to the game as a whole. A big percentage of races I see during the week are very small fields won by very low prices. It feels like public workouts where the connections get paid but makes the product extraordinarily unappealing.

I'm certainly not saying trainers and owners should prosper in the game but the incentives for a healthy game just don't exist in many areas.

[Tom]

Casinos needed racing to get established. Now that they are, they find themselves in an Odd Couple relationship. Casinos make money, racing leeches it off of them.

It is a no-brainer for casinos - they no longer need the tracks. Governments know it. The tracks probably have no clue, as in most things they are involved in. :rolleyes:

It would be stupid for casinos to not want to get free from the tracks and go on their own. The influx of money was supposed to drive up purses and improve racing. How'd that work out at Aqueduct - the Graveyard of Entries. Apparently, you can't pay people to race at the Big A. :lola

[Denny]

Opening day of the Spring meet at beautiful Belmont.
A day I always looked forward to when I lived down there.
Problem is, the place looks deserted.
More people on site are working with the horses or are connected to the horses in some way.
Appears to be very few fans there.
Can't blame the public though, the place is like an ice box. Built to be a Summer track, the grandstand faces North.
At least they have more than four or five horses in a race.
Can they ever get the public interested again on Long Island?
Seems they're going to try.
They're going to spend fortune renovating the place over the next few years.
Hope it's worth it.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Opening day of the Spring meet at beautiful Belmont.
A day I always looked forward to when I lived down there.
Problem is, the place looks deserted.
More people on site are working with the horses or are connected to the horses in some way.
Appears to be very few fans there.
Can't blame the public though, the place is like an ice box. Built to be a Summer track, the grandstand faces North.
At least they have more than four or five horses in a race.
Can they ever get the public interested again on Long Island?
Seems they're going to try.
They're going to spend fortune renovating the place over the next few years.
Hope it's worth it.

Denny I wish I was there with you brother. I love the ontrack experience. I think we got off on the wrong foot. I am an ontrack guy and love my fellow players!

[Denny]

All's good Cincy. Hope to see you at the track some day!

Time for Meadowlands right now. See ya.

[Denny]

Something happened today that made me have to re-open this thread.

It absolutely fits under the "we're in trouble" topic.

They ran a race today, the 1st at Pimlico, with ONLY TWO horses.

ELEVEN horses were entered in this starter allowance for a $25,000 purse.

NINE WERE ALLOWED TO SCRATCH!!!

The winner went off 1/9 and paid $2.20.

The weather was beautiful, the track was FAST.

Are you allowed to scratch for any reason you want nowadays???

It makes a MOCKERY of the SPORT.

Shame on you Pimlico and the Stronach Group for allowing this to happen.

[Denny]

Apparently trainers view running on the Dirt is tantamount to a death sentence for a turf horse.

Guess it's the only reason you need.

(I didn't see that it was originally scheduled for Turf. My bad.)

Still.
Can't a track take precautions? NY (for example) always has MTO's listed for virtually all of it's Turf races.

It really looks bad for the game when this kind of thing happens.

[Tom]

Everything was done by the rules.
There was no intent to harm or inconvenience the customers.

In fact, I doubt the customer was ever considered at all.:bang:

[Track Phantom]

Not sure you can blame anyone but how the weather and scratches were handled at Pimlico during Preakness weekend made the sport look 2nd class. All of those scratches made their product unplayable. Then, the technology (or lack thereof) made it unviewable. I'm not saying I have the answer to the problem, I only know that it turned what should have been a top 10 day of national racing into a joke.

While I don't have the answers, I'm damn sure I would be having diligent meetings now to react to the inevitable happening again next year. There has to be something that can be done (increase purse if the race comes off the turf, etc).

[Denny]

Another lousy weather day, in NY this time.

A THREE horse race, a couple of FOUR's and FIVE's.

Horrible, boring races. Not worth watching or betting.

(Too much turf racing scheduled almost daily)

[Tom]

Wait until you tomorrow's cards - they replaced the traditional Met Mile big holiday of racing with a toilet bowl full of NY State In-Bred races!

Thank God for Monmouth.

[RunForTheRoses]

The Sunday Holiday Weekend festivities got off to a roaring start at Monmouth as Jorge Navarro won the first three races at short prices. He won a fourth later on.

[RunForTheRoses]

Wait until you tomorrow's cards - they replaced the traditional Met Mile big holiday of racing with a toilet bowl full of NY State In-Bred races!

Thank God for Monmouth.


Just saw this post, maybe thank God for Emerald? Not playing but fields seem decent for there.

[Denny]

NO Monmouth for me, don't like that track.

If the races stay intact - stay on grass - I'll bet the NY-breds at Belmont tomorrow.

Large fields, competitive racing scheduled in NY.

Stay on the Turf NYRA.

(Do miss the Met Mile. But, that's the way it is.)

[TonyK@HSH]

Another lousy weather day, in NY this time.

A THREE horse race, a couple of FOUR's and FIVE's.

Horrible, boring races. Not worth watching or betting.

(Too much turf racing scheduled almost daily)

Short fields don't mean you can't find value. Dave Schwartz will tell you 5 horse fields are very profitable.

[jay68802]

Short fields don't mean you can't find value. Dave Schwartz will tell you 5 horse fields are very profitable.

Short field, long price. might as well get used to it.

[Denny]

The upcoming feature stakes at Santa Anita has a field of FIVE - for a grade 3.

Can't blame the weather, like they do everywhere else.

The favorite is 3/5 right now, the second choice 2/1.

Where's that Value TonyK?

[Denny]

Short field, long price. might as well get used to it.

Get used to it - or stop betting thoroughbreds?

[Denny]

That was exciting.

The 2/1 dropped to 4/5 in the last couple minutes, wins easily by many.
The other goes off 1/1 and runs second.

Thrilling stuff in that 5 horse race.

I'm leaning more towards quitting every day, I'm way past getting used to it!

Harness racing any better? I think it might be.

Anybody else?

[jay68802]

Get used to it - or stop betting thoroughbreds?

Did not say to stop betting, just am stating it has been the norm now for a long time. Had to adjust to it myself. $16.00 to $30.00 payouts are fine by me, and in shorter fields the longest price has a much better chance to hit. Of course, I would like to see larger fields, but wish in one hand, sh$t in the other, what do you have the most of? I will just try to keep taking what is there, and hope for changes.

[Denny]

That could have fit under the late odds drop thread, come to think of it.:)
Another good reason.

[Denny]

How would you have liked to be at Pimlico today?

MJC cancels last 6 races of the day due to heavy rain!
Track couldn't handle it.

If the people running thoroughbred racing weren't morons, they'd have figured out the answer by now!

Install an ALL WEATHER TRACK as a backup.

(Thankfully there is a track that will be doing it.)

[rastajenk]

How far is Ellicot City from Pimlico, I wonder.

[cj]

How far is Ellicot City from Pimlico, I wonder.

It isn't too far, maybe 15 miles. Larry Collmus grew up there, was near where we went to high school. I grew up in Baltimore city, Brooklyn/Curtis Bay.

[Grits]

It isn't too far, maybe 15 miles. Larry Collmus grew up there, was near where we went to high school. I grew up in Baltimore city, Brooklyn/Curtis Bay.

This worried me, tonight, when I saw the video on the news. I hope all the humans and all the horses are ok. If need be, if the rain continues....I hope they are able to move the horses out of harm's way.

[Denny]

Pimlico is on a hill. Don't think it flooded too bad.
It's an old track without proper drainage.
Another reason to shut her down.
Amazing they ran the Preakness under those conditions.

[thaskalos]

Short fields don't mean you can't find value. Dave Schwartz will tell you 5 horse fields are very profitable.

Would that make the 4-horse fields even MORE profitable?

[Thomas Roulston]

How would you have liked to be at Pimlico today?

MJC cancels last 6 races of the day due to heavy rain!
Track couldn't handle it.

If the people running thoroughbred racing weren't morons, they'd have figured out the answer by now!

Install an ALL WEATHER TRACK as a backup.

(Thankfully there is a track that will be doing it.)



Or a retractable roof.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Would that make the 4-horse fields even MORE profitable?

You have to become a specialist. The intricacies of the 5 horse field and the guarantee of a good thing with sub 2-1 odds is where it's at Thask. Don't be so antiquated bro. This is the revolution of modern day horseplaying thought!

[Denny]

Or a retractable roof.

Interesting idea.

Do you think it's actually doable? Racetracks are a lot bigger than stadiums.

[Denny]

You have to become a specialist. The intricacies of the 5 horse field and the guarantee of a good thing with sub 2-1 odds is where it's at Thask. Don't be so antiquated bro. This is the revolution of modern day horseplaying thought!


That's a scary thought for me.
I'm primarily a longshot player.
I'd rather quit thoroughbreds entirely and switch to harness full time if short 4 and 5 horse fields were to become the norm in every race..

[cj]

Interesting idea.

Do you think it's actually doable? Racetracks are a lot bigger than stadiums.

They can't afford updated tote systems or modern timing systems. No way in hell they are spending to cover a track.

[Denny]

Yesterday's Memorial Day card at Belmont was a nice reprieve from what we experience all too often as players.

Full fields of competitive racing is what it's about imo.

Don't care if they're NY-breds or whatever, there was something for everyone, from favorites to 20-1 long shots. Good payoffs everywhere - in horizontal and vertical pools. Nice mix of dirt and turf, short and long.

Only thing that could have spoiled it was if it rained.

Can't wait till Belmont gets the renovation with an all-weather track as a back-up for bad weather days.

Kudos to NYRA for putting these type of cards together when possible and for the forward thinking.

(Maybe I should start a "Something to Look Forward To" thread?)

What do you think all? Something positive for a change.

PS. Didn't miss the Met Mile at all and am looking forward to it in two weeks.

[thaskalos]

You have to become a specialist. The intricacies of the 5 horse field and the guarantee of a good thing with sub 2-1 odds is where it's at Thask. Don't be so antiquated bro. This is the revolution of modern day horseplaying thought!

Depend upon it, the 5-horse field will be the final nail in horse racing's coffin...as far as the horseplayer is concerned. That "good thing at sub 2-1 odds" will become the 'despised thing at sub 1-1 odds' by the time the horses near the final turn...and we can get such a payoff by engaging in the newly-approved sports-betting gig. We didn't become horseplayers because we were enamored of the $4 win-payoffs...or the $30 trifectas (for $2). I am speaking strictly for myself, of course.

[Thomas Roulston]

Interesting idea.

Do you think it's actually doable? Racetracks are a lot bigger than stadiums.


It would very quickly pay for itself - since it would mean fewer scratches, and therefore larger fields, and with it, more money wagered, and more money made by the track.

The Meadowlands might be ideal. It's only a mile track so that would hold the construction cost down (plus The Meadowlands is already climate controlled for the fans - as is Parx, another suitable candidate). Putting a roof on Belmont, on the other hand, would be hideously expensive - and NYRA is so incompetent that they would still end up with five-horse fields!

[Denny]

Depend upon it, the 5-horse field will be the final nail in horse racing's coffin...as far as the horseplayer is concerned. That "good thing at sub 2-1 odds" will become the 'despised thing at sub 1-1 odds' by the time the horses near the final turn...and we can get such a payoff by engaging in the newly-approved sports-betting gig. We didn't become horseplayers because we were enamored of the $4 win-payoffs...or the $30 trifectas. I am speaking strictly for myself, of course.

I had the same reaction as you to what he said. If I want to bet even-money, I'll switch to sports or blackjack. We got a new casino in the Catskills this year so I might even give poker a try!

[thaskalos]

I had the same reaction as you to what he said. If I want to bet even-money, I'll switch to sports or blackjack. We got a new casino in the Catskills this year so I might even give poker a try!

Give poker a shot...just in case. ;)

And if you want...I can recommend a couple of good no-limit holdem books. There is loose money out there...:ThmbUp:

[Denny]

It would very quickly pay for itself - since it would mean fewer scratches, and therefore larger fields, and with it, more money wagered, and more money made by the track.

The Meadowlands might be ideal. It's only a mile track so that would hold the construction cost down (plus The Meadowlands is already climate controlled for the fans - as is Parx, another suitable candidate). Putting a roof on Belmont, on the other hand, would be hideously expensive - and NYRA is so incompetent that they would still end up with five-horse fields!

Gural already spent 100 million on that band-box of a new grandstand.
The old grandstand is still standing. It was perfectly usable already, just need upgrading.
He never got the slots or casino he was counting on.
Can the sports betting save them?
If they don't get some major help from the State, don't see them surviving.
Can't see them doing a retractable roof.

I know people in the Standardbred Industry that hate what Gural did. Particularly removing all the stabling. You have to ship in for every race. people don't get home till 3 in the morning sometimes if they race in a late race and have to go back to where the horse trains/stables.
Kind of nuts to have a racetrack like that.

[Denny]

Give poker a shot...just in case. ;)

And if you want...I can recommend a couple of good no-limit holdem books. There is loose money out there...:ThmbUp:

Please do. I'm very interested in giving no-limit a shot.
I do exceptionally well on-line without any real money. there are so many bad players. Can there be that many stiffs at the table too in a casino?
I have a felling there might be judging by a couple of horseplayers I know who bet poker. They're not exactly what you call thinkers.

If you want to private message me or put it on here, either way is good.

Thanks Thask,
denny

[thaskalos]

Please do. I'm very interested in giving no-limit a shot.
I do exceptionally well on-line without any real money. there are so many bad players. Can there be that many stiffs at the table too in a casino?
I have a felling there might be judging by a couple of horseplayers I know who bet poker. They're not exactly what you call thinkers.

If you want to private message me or put it on here, either way is good.

Thanks Thask,
denny

I'll send you a private message...to avoid taking this thread off of its intended purpose. The poker books that I will recommend to you will be easy to understand, and will allow you to play and survive the game...while you acquire the added knowledge and experience needed in order to win. You can't beat a gambling game just by reading books; you have to expose yourself to the actual game...for real money. And you need to initially adopt a game plan which will keep your tuition cost as low as possible. That's what these books will teach you...if you will allow them.

[TonyK@HSH]

The upcoming feature stakes at Santa Anita has a field of FIVE - for a grade 3.

Can't blame the weather, like they do everywhere else.

The favorite is 3/5 right now, the second choice 2/1.

Where's that Value TonyK?


I don't have any insight into Dave's methodology but I do know he feels this way. He is a good, honest man and I have no reason to doubt him.
I also knows that he believes there can be value in short priced horses.

TonyK

[CincyHorseplayer]

Depend upon it, the 5-horse field will be the final nail in horse racing's coffin...as far as the horseplayer is concerned. That "good thing at sub 2-1 odds" will become the 'despised thing at sub 1-1 odds' by the time the horses near the final turn...and we can get such a payoff by engaging in the newly-approved sports-betting gig. We didn't become horseplayers because we were enamored of the $4 win-payoffs...or the $30 trifectas (for $2). I am speaking strictly for myself, of course.

I was just hoping you knew I was full of shit and meant nothing I said! I love ya brother! LOL!:D

[Denny]

I don't have any insight into Dave's methodology but I do know he feels this way. He is a good, honest man and I have no reason to doubt him.
I also knows that he believes there can be value in short priced horses.

TonyK

The 2/1 in my example above was bet down to 4/5 late and won.
The 3/5 went up to 8/5 and finished 2nd.

Awfully hard to find any value.

Then we had the Old Hollywood Gold Cup now at SA.

6 horse field with 2 stiffs with no chance finish in the last two spots.

The 4 favorites are in the Super with one of the favorites winning.

Hard to find anything there of value.

We need bigger fields, not trying to find value in 4 or 5 horse fields that doesn't exist.

[Denny]

The reason for starting this thread - "We're In Trouble" - is in my first post to start it. This is my perspective of where we are today - as a lifelong player and fan and what I'm afraid of.

Recently another reason for horseplayers to be concerned has come to light and starting to gain attention, with circumstances surrounding who's going to run in the Belmont Stakes this coming Saturday.

Not only do we need to be concerned with short fields due to "super trainers" controlling too many horses and not wanting to run them against each other, now we also have to be concerned with "Super Owners" controlling too many interests.

Here's a link for one horse racing writer take on this potential problem for the game, Tom Jicha of horseraceinsider.com.

I pretty much see it the same way.

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/Ante-Post/comments/super-ownership-groups-care-about-themselves-not-the-sport/

[Denny]

No comments?

---

Thinking on it a little further, I suppose there could be a good side to the "super owners" - it could create RIVALRIES among the the big outfits.

Rivalries are usually a good thing for most sports. They create an extra level of interest and can lead to increased competition.

What do you think?

[cj]

It isn't great, but not surprising. As foal crops shrink, the little guy is going to be more likely to be squeezed out. Not all that different from trainers.

[Tom]

We didn't become horseplayers because we were enamored of the $4 win-payoffs...or the $30 trifectas (for $2). I am speaking strictly for myself, of course.

My very first bet - also my very first winner - was Morganfield, $28.80.
That win has carried my interest for over 50 years.

Had Morganfield paid $4.40, I doubt I would have made it past the hot dog before I left the track to go play baseball. As prices go lower and lower, the lotto looks better and better. :rolleyes:

[Denny]

Another Wednesday without racing in NY.

Only the biggest week of the year at Belmont.

Belmont Stakes Festival???

[Denny]

My very first bet - also my very first winner - was Morganfield, $28.80.
That win has carried my interest for over 50 years.

Had Morganfield paid $4.40, I doubt I would have made it past the hot dog before I left the track to go play baseball. As prices go lower and lower, the lotto looks better and better. :rolleyes:

Same here. Started to go to Aqueduct with my Dad as a teenager, and would have never become a fan if all we had was 4, 5, and 6 horse fields witha bunch of favorites winning all the time.

(Can't remember my first winner, but, my dad liked longshots. So it probably was.)

[Ocala Mike]

My very first winner was a Fred Hooper horse called GYRO (late 50's). He paid $15.00 with Eric Guerin aboard, and I've been hooked for 60 years.

[Denny]

What happened on Saturday with Bob Baffert basically taking insurance on Justify winning by using Restoring Hope as a blocker - and thus FIXING the race with the cooperation of a couple of jockeys - has left such a sour taste in my mouth that I'm stepping away from the "sport" for the foreseeable future.

I'm going to read the two books recommended to me by a fellow contributor to this site on playing no-limit holdem poker.

If I feel the need to bet a race, it will be a harness race at Woodbine/Mohawk or a track running cleaner racing - like Meadowlands - when they have a decent card for a change.

I lost every race I bet on Belmont Stakes Day and have had it with thoroughbreds. I lost a bundle betting the entire Triple Crown events and the races on those cards.

I now hate stakes races and the owners/trainers associated with them; and IF I ever come back it will be to bet other types of races entirely.

I've lost my money - and my interest.

See ya.

Denny

[jocko699]

What happened on Saturday with Bob Baffert basically taking insurance on Justify winning by using Restoring Hope as a blocker - and thus FIXING the race with the cooperation of a couple of jockeys - has left such a sour taste in my mouth that I'm stepping away from the "sport" for the foreseeable future.

I'm going to read the two books recommended to me by a fellow contributor to this site on playing no-limit holdem poker.

If I feel the need to bet a race, it will be a harness race at Woodbine/Mohawk or a track running cleaner racing - like Meadowlands - when they have a decent card for a change.

I lost every race I bet on Belmont Stakes Day and have had it with thoroughbreds. I lost a bundle betting the entire Triple Crown events and the races on those cards.

I now hate stakes races and the owners/trainers associated with them; and IF I ever come back it will be to bet other types of races entirely.

I've lost my money - and my interest.

See ya.

Denny

Hopefully the door won't hit you on your way out.

[GMB@BP]

What happened on Saturday with Bob Baffert basically taking insurance on Justify winning by using Restoring Hope as a blocker - and thus FIXING the race with the cooperation of a couple of jockeys - has left such a sour taste in my mouth that I'm stepping away from the "sport" for the foreseeable future.

I'm going to read the two books recommended to me by a fellow contributor to this site on playing no-limit holdem poker.

If I feel the need to bet a race, it will be a harness race at Woodbine/Mohawk or a track running cleaner racing - like Meadowlands - when they have a decent card for a change.

I lost every race I bet on Belmont Stakes Day and have had it with thoroughbreds. I lost a bundle betting the entire Triple Crown events and the races on those cards.

I now hate stakes races and the owners/trainers associated with them; and IF I ever come back it will be to bet other types of races entirely.

I've lost my money - and my interest.

See ya.

Denny

later

[Redbullsnation]

What happened on Saturday with Bob Baffert basically taking insurance on Justify winning by using Restoring Hope as a blocker - and thus FIXING the race with the cooperation of a couple of jockeys - has left such a sour taste in my mouth that I'm stepping away from the "sport" for the foreseeable future.

I'm going to read the two books recommended to me by a fellow contributor to this site on playing no-limit holdem poker.

If I feel the need to bet a race, it will be a harness race at Woodbine/Mohawk or a track running cleaner racing - like Meadowlands - when they have a decent card for a change.

I lost every race I bet on Belmont Stakes Day and have had it with thoroughbreds. I lost a bundle betting the entire Triple Crown events and the races on those cards.

I now hate stakes races and the owners/trainers associated with them; and IF I ever come back it will be to bet other types of races entirely.

I've lost my money - and my interest.

See ya.

Denny
Bye

[Prioress Ply]

Yeah--anyone who gets out because the sport stinks to high heaven is ridiculed and ostracized.

Says quite a bit about the people who choose to stay in.

[thaskalos]

What happened on Saturday with Bob Baffert basically taking insurance on Justify winning by using Restoring Hope as a blocker - and thus FIXING the race with the cooperation of a couple of jockeys - has left such a sour taste in my mouth that I'm stepping away from the "sport" for the foreseeable future.

I'm going to read the two books recommended to me by a fellow contributor to this site on playing no-limit holdem poker.

If I feel the need to bet a race, it will be a harness race at Woodbine/Mohawk or a track running cleaner racing - like Meadowlands - when they have a decent card for a change.

I lost every race I bet on Belmont Stakes Day and have had it with thoroughbreds. I lost a bundle betting the entire Triple Crown events and the races on those cards.

I now hate stakes races and the owners/trainers associated with them; and IF I ever come back it will be to bet other types of races entirely.

I've lost my money - and my interest.

See ya.

Denny

Before you abandon this game for good...might I make a suggestion that might rekindle your interest? Open a betting account at DerbyWars or Horsetourneys...and start betting heads-up handicapping tournaments against other members...instead of fighting it out against the tote board. I got into this horse tournament game late myself...but now that I got used to it, I think it's the best way to play this game. Check these two sites out...and you might thank me.

[GMB@BP]

Before you abandon this game for good...might I make a suggestion that might rekindle your interest? Open a betting account at DerbyWars or Horsetourneys...and start betting heads-up handicapping tournaments against other members...instead of fighting it out against the tote board. I got into this horse tournament game late myself...but now that I got used to it, I think it's the best way to play this game. Check these two sites out...and you might thank me.

yea, thats mostly been my play this year. been very good to me so far.

[thaskalos]

yea, thats mostly been my play this year. been very good to me so far.

Remember the old joke about the two friends who were being chased by the bear in the wilderness? One of the friends questioned the sanity of the other...who seemed to be wasting valuable time changing from his hiking boots to his sneakers. "What are you doing...you can't outrun the bear?"...the one friend asked incredulously. To which the other guy replied..."I don't have to outrun the bear. All I have to do is outrun you". This is the scenario that gets played out in today's horse racing landscape. When you play the game conventionally, then you are trying to "outrun the bear"...whereas the heads-up tournament setting allows you to simply have to outrun the other guy, as the bear closes in.

I was playing a heads-up tournament the other day...which featured the last 8 races at Mountaineer. My opponent and I had both placed mythical $2 win and place wagers on our 8 selections...for a theoretical wagering outlay of $32 each. Well...my combined selections garnered me only about a $15 return, which would have gotten me slaughtered against the tote board. But my counterpart only collected a measly $2.20...when an odds-on choice of his finished 2nd. And this wasn't a tournament for insignificant money. Seeing this...how could I not get excited about tournament play?

[GMB@BP]

Remember the old joke about the two friends who were being chased by the bear in the wilderness? One of the friends questioned the sanity of the other...who seemed to be wasting valuable time changing from his hiking boots to his sneakers. "What are you doing...you can't outrun the bear?"...the one friend asked incredulously. To which the other guy replied..."I don't have to outrun the bear. All I have to do is outrun you". This is the scenario that gets played out in today's horse racing landscape. When you play the game conventionally, then you are trying to "outrun the bear"...whereas the heads-up tournament setting allows you to simply have to outrun the other guy, as the bear closes in.

I was playing a heads-up tournament the other day...which featured the last 8 races at Mountaineer. My opponent and I had both placed mythical $2 win and place wagers on our 8 selections...for a theoretical wagering outlay of $32 each. Well...my combined selections garnered me only about a $15 return, which would have gotten me slaughtered against the tote board. But my counterpart only collected a measly $2.20...when an odds-on choice of his finished 2nd. And this wasn't a tournament for insignificant money. Seeing this...how could I not get excited about tournament play?

What I have been doing is using the head 2 head money as a bankroll to play in the qualifiers. I usually do good in those and then with breakage in the 2nd rounds, or even the third, make money.

I got to a $700 final starting with $11 and finished 3rd (2nd qualified for a 8k cash tourney), but got the $700 breakage.

I am still feeling my way through the best way to play. I am wining about 70% of my heads up play.

[thaskalos]

What I have been doing is using the head 2 head money as a bankroll to play in the qualifiers. I usually do good in those and then with breakage in the 2nd rounds, or even the third, make money.

I got to a $700 final starting with $11 and finished 3rd (2nd qualified for a 8k cash tourney), but got the $700 breakage.

I am still feeling my way through the best way to play. I am wining about 70% of my heads up play.

I am concentrating strictly on the heads-up tournaments for now. I had no prior experience whatsoever in this form of play...so I set up a modest bankroll and started playing at the $22 level...intending to gradually move up as my bankroll and experience increased. But my winning percentage at that level was so surprisingly high that I decided to throw caution to the wind...and fund my account with serious money so I could move up the betting ladder faster, to avoid wasting valuable time. :)

Say...are our cash deposits there really safe...or can these sites disappear into thin air?

[GMB@BP]

I am concentrating strictly on the heads-up tournaments for now. I had no prior experience whatsoever in this form of play...so I set up a modest bankroll and started playing at the $22 level...intending to gradually move up as my bankroll and experience increased. But my winning percentage at that level was so surprisingly high that I decided to throw caution to the wind...and fund my account with serious money so I could move up the betting ladder faster, to avoid wasting valuable time. :)

Say...are our cash deposits there really safe...or can these sites disappear into thin air?

I feel like they are pretty secure, horse tourneys is tied in with NTRA at least, and DRF is not going anywhere.

Derby Wars, I have the least and am the most suspect.

I dont keep any money in them that I feel like I would be really upset if they went away. I am not a big player so 1k is my usually bankroll in those.

[Denny]

Thaskalos,

Thanks for the suggestion.

Right now I'm so turned off that I'm just staying away from betting thoroughbreds.

Instead, started betting harness at Woodbine/Mohawk.

Early results are positive.

I'll post my ROI after a months play.

[thespaah]

How would you have liked to be at Pimlico today?

MJC cancels last 6 races of the day due to heavy rain!
Track couldn't handle it.

If the people running thoroughbred racing weren't morons, they'd have figured out the answer by now!

Install an ALL WEATHER TRACK as a backup.

(Thankfully there is a track that will be doing it.)

When a weather event such as a 6 inch rain fall in less than 3 hours, nothing is designed for that.

[Denny]

When a weather event such as a 6 inch rain fall in less than 3 hours, nothing is designed for that.

I think you're exaggerating a bit.

An ALL WEATHER track can handle quite a bit of rain.

DIRT can't. They cancelled a Saturday at The Spa last year for a downpour.

We'll find out when the AW is installed at Belmont Park in a couple of years.

Belmont will be the best and most versatile racetrack in the world IMO.

See you at Saratoga.

[ultracapper]

I go to a dive in Everett Wa above a closed night club that you have to walk through to get to the stairs, half the monitors are old big box type tv’s and the place smells like mold, but the place was packed, just about everyone knows everyone else and half stand and yell during the race, the other half insults the person that gave him bad advice ,no food except a vending machine no drinks except plain old coffee that you have to make yourself most of the time, have to walk behind a closed run down bar to get to the bathroom, man I love that place, don’t know how they get away with codes, fire ect. But have never had a bad time there

Is Eamonn and Mikey still hanging around up there? How about Ray Ray? Yea, that place is a dump, but it has always been full.

[Denny]

Does any track have more daily scratches than what we have in NY?

Track Fast and Firm - nice day with no rain.

First race today - 7 entered - two scratched - 5 horse race

Second race - 8 entered - two scratched - 6 horse race

Fifth race - 9 entered - two scratched

Eighth race - 11 entered - FIVE scratched - 6 horse race

How can so many horses every day be allowed to enter and scratch from races?
____

I've been watching harness now five nights a week and there are hardly ANY scratches.

[Prioress Ply]

Welcome to life with Martin Panza as your racing "secretary."

[thaskalos]

The casino-elevated purses have done wonders for the NY racing product. :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

Yeah--anyone who gets out because the sport stinks to high heaven is ridiculed and ostracized.

Says quite a bit about the people who choose to stay in.I know what it says about the people who get out. That's for sure.

[PaceAdvantage]

Welcome to life with Martin Panza as your racing "secretary."Yeah, I know. I remember all the posts from you about it being PARADISE before Marty got there...:pound::pound::pound:

You're a riot Alice.

[Prioress Ply]

I know what it says about the people who get out. That's for sure.


Oh really what does it say, Mr. Oracle? Do tell.

[Prioress Ply]

Yeah, I know. I remember all the posts from you about it being PARADISE before Marty got there...:pound::pound::pound:

You're a riot Alice.

I don't remember so many fake entries, scratches and complaining from regular NYRA horseplayers before Marty came.

But I'm sure he's quite grateful to have such an athletic supporter in the ranks.

[PaceAdvantage]

Oh really what does it say, Mr. Oracle? Do tell.It says they suck at picking winners almost as much as I do. That's what it says, genius.

[Prioress Ply]

Au contraire Monsieur, it is you that are genius.:D

[PaceAdvantage]

Au contraire Monsieur, it is you that are genius.:DNo no no. You have all the answers. You're the dark shadowy figure roaming about, correcting the record. :pound::pound::pound:

This forum gets funnier by the second, especially when you pop up every now and then.

[Denny]

PJ Campo has less trouble filling races for GP than Panza for NYRA.

The daily scratch totals in NY seem out of control.

Do they think the fans don't notice what's going on?
Or do they just not care anymore?

Plenty of free money to pay expenses (purses) and fewer owners and trainers to split the winnings. Everybody is happy.

5 horse races with only 1 not getting paid. What a racket for horsemen.

Great compensation, benefits, and retirement for executives, employees, and talent too.

What a racket for everyone.

[TonyK@HSH]

Does any track have more daily scratches than what we have in NY?

Track Fast and Firm - nice day with no rain.

First race today - 7 entered - two scratched - 5 horse race

Second race - 8 entered - two scratched - 6 horse race

Fifth race - 9 entered - two scratched

Eighth race - 11 entered - FIVE scratched - 6 horse race

How can so many horses every day be allowed to enter and scratch from races?
____

I've been watching harness now five nights a week and there are hardly ANY scratches.

I bet NY every day and wish the entries were stronger, but to be fair 7 of the scratches today were due to Main track only or AE entries. That leaves 4 remaining scratches from the card.

Tony

[PaceAdvantage]

PJ Campo has less trouble filling races for GP than Panza for NYRA.

The daily scratch totals in NY seem out of control.

Do they think the fans don't notice what's going on?
Or do they just not care anymore?

Plenty of free money to pay expenses (purses) and fewer owners and trainers to split the winnings. Everybody is happy.

5 horse races with only 1 not getting paid. What a racket for horsemen.

Great compensation, benefits, and retirement for executives, employees, and talent too.

What a racket for everyone.PJ Campo used to be Martin Panza. I heard the same crap back then too when he was in charge.

Oh, and they had the casino when Campo was around too.

[Denny]

Tony,
Still, if you're using MTO's to fill races and make tham go, somrthing is wrong.

PA,

You can thank me for this thread and all the attention it's gotten.
More than 100 comments, clost 8,000 views.
As have several other threads I've started here.

All this for you from someone you consider to be so bad, you curse me out on several threads.

You can go to Hell.

Delete everything I've given you for the last 8 months.

There won't be any more coming.

You can go eff yourself too!

You're a low life with bad manners.

To everybody else - minus Tom The Chimp.

Thank you.

Denny

[clicknow]

I think it's a matter of deciding what criteria is important to you and choosing only those tracks that fulfill that to invest your wagering dollars. check all that on the HANA website

My local is Oaklawn and checks all the boxes for me for Live Racing. It is getting a bit crowded there now so I buy season reserved parking, but rarely buy seats because I like to be outdoors or down at the live paddocks. .


I play Hong Kong in the evenings when I feel like staying up late. I like Prairie Meadows, too. I think I might try to learn KY Downs next year.


I don't play many tracks anymore, and certainly not where I'm only going to get exacta payouts in the 'teens and sub-teens.

I concentrate on those where I am very familiar with the track, the jockey and trainer colonies. I think stepping too far outside of that is a good way to lose $$.

So, sticking with 3 U.S. tracks works for me.

[PaceAdvantage]

Tony,
Still, if you're using MTO's to fill races and make tham go, somrthing is wrong.

PA,

You can thank me for this thread and all the attention it's gotten.
More than 100 comments, clost 8,000 views.
As have several other threads I've started here.

All this for you from someone you consider to be so bad, you curse me out on several threads.

You can go to Hell.

Delete everything I've given you for the last 8 months.

There won't be any more coming.

You can go eff yourself too!

You're a low life with bad manners.

To everybody else - minus Tom The Chimp.

Thank you.

DennyWhy do all the biggest idiots around here always cite thread activity with such pride? As if the site will die without them going forward.

Dude...19 years...still here...there have been plenty of YOU who have showed up and disappeared with the same boring story to tell.

Trust me, we'll still be here when you're gone...and we won't miss you.

[JustRalph]

Why do all the biggest idiots around here always cite thread activity with such pride? As if the site will die without them going forward.

Dude...19 years...still here...there have been plenty of YOU who have showed up and disappeared with the same boring story to tell.

Trust me, we'll still be here when you're gone...and we won't miss you.

He acts like he was getting paid by the word......

[castaway01]

I think it's a matter of deciding what criteria is important to you and choosing only those tracks that fulfill that to invest your wagering dollars. check all that on the HANA website

My local is Oaklawn and checks all the boxes for me for Live Racing. It is getting a bit crowded there now so I buy season reserved parking, but rarely buy seats because I like to be outdoors or down at the live paddocks. .


I play Hong Kong in the evenings when I feel like staying up late. I like Prairie Meadows, too. I think I might try to learn KY Downs next year.


I don't play many tracks anymore, and certainly not where I'm only going to get exacta payouts in the 'teens and sub-teens.

I concentrate on those where I am very familiar with the track, the jockey and trainer colonies. I think stepping too far outside of that is a good way to lose $$.

So, sticking with 3 U.S. tracks works for me.

I think you have the perfect attitude for the semi-serious horseplayer. You found what works for you, you're enjoying playing, and you know where your money is best invested. I'm not sure what else you can ask from racing in 2018 if it's your hobby.

[Denny]

Why do all the biggest idiots around here always cite thread activity with such pride? As if the site will die without them going forward.

Dude...19 years...still here...there have been plenty of YOU who have showed up and disappeared with the same boring story to tell.

Trust me, we'll still be here when you're gone...and we won't miss you.

PA, (whoever you are... runs a site and is afraid to use his name...)

The site is doing so well that you need donations to survive.

That, and paid advertisers hawking products with threads.

Keep driving away contributors. All you'll have left is people with little to say.

Your loss.

AA,

Think he deleted my post to you elsewhere. Hope to see you back at HRI.
Maybe i'll send you a private message.

[CincyHorseplayer]

PA, (whoever you are... runs a site and is afraid to use his name...)

The site is doing so well that you need donations to survive.

That, and paid advertisers hawking products with threads.

Keep driving away contributors. All you'll have left is people with little to say.

Your loss.

AA,

Think he deleted my post to you elsewhere. Hope to see you back at HRI.
Maybe i'll send you a private message.

PA is the best site for horseplayers on the net and everybody knows it. If they don't it's because they don't look for a horseplaying site on the internet. Being able to talk to real players and the people who sell products. This site is a gold mine. You have exercised your disenchantment about nearly all aspects of thoroughbred racing. Not a shocker that people have gotten sick of it and said something and now you are pissed off and whining like it wasn't slef created. Pat yourself on the back you are now a member of the douchebag club! Membership has it's priveleges. Elsewhere!:ThmbUp::D

[clicknow]

I think you have the perfect attitude for the semi-serious horseplayer. You found what works for you, you're enjoying playing, and you know where your money is best invested. I'm not sure what else you can ask from racing in 2018 if it's your hobby.


Thank you Castaway, I'm getting exactly what I want out of it.

I've always subscribed to that great passage in Alice in Wonderland, where she asks the Cat: "Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?”

And the Cat says: “That depends a good deal on where you want to get to.”

[PaceAdvantage]

The site is doing so well that you need donations to survive.

That, and paid advertisers hawking products with threads.This might be your funniest and stupidest post yet.

I don't need ANY of those things. But they are nice to have for all the ****ING WORK I PUT INTO THIS PLACE (just the MONITORING OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU IS A FULL TIME ****ING JOB).

I could easily do this without the ads or the VIP memberships (I choose to call them donations, but they are really memberships to an area that I hope provides at least a little extra value...contests...amazon discount links - I know I need to update those...and my value plays - which have been kicking ass, finally, recently, after months of losing my ass trying to figure out which way is up).

And yes, the site is doing VERY well when compared to EVERY OTHER RACING FORUM ON THE WORLD WIDE WEB.

They are all, at last check, pretty much GRAVEYARDS...absolute ****ING GRAVEYARDS.

So pardon me if I don't take your criticism constructively. I've been doing this almost 19 years and am still here...still kicking...still thriving...while all the other sites that once had people posting on them are essentially dead or erased completely.

This coming from the guy who said he was going to leave. :pound:

THEY NEVER LEAVE...because this place ROCKS! :ThmbUp:

[JustRalph]

PA, (whoever you are... runs a site and is afraid to use his name...)


Stop spewing bullshit. PA doesn’t hide from anybody. In fact many of us on this board have spent several days together in Saratoga, Belmont and other places. There are some damn fine people on this board.

[the little guy]

Tony,
Still, if you're using MTO's to fill races and make tham go, somrthing is wrong.

Denny

No racing secretary has EVER used MTOs to make races go or fill....they are protection in case races get rained off the grass. It's hard to imagine anyone not understanding this implicitly. A racing secretary could possibly be criticized for not getting enough MTOs, especially when rain is imminent, not the opposite.

[CincyHorseplayer]

This might be your funniest and stupidest post yet.

I don't need ANY of those things. But they are nice to have for all the ****ING WORK I PUT INTO THIS PLACE (just the MONITORING OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU IS A FULL TIME ****ING JOB).

I could easily do this without the ads or the VIP memberships (I choose to call them donations, but they are really memberships to an area that I hope provides at least a little extra value...contests...amazon discount links - I know I need to update those...and my value plays - which have been kicking ass, finally, recently, after months of losing my ass trying to figure out which way is up).

And yes, the site is doing VERY well when compared to EVERY OTHER RACING FORUM ON THE WORLD WIDE WEB.

They are all, at last check, pretty much GRAVEYARDS...absolute ****ING GRAVEYARDS.

So pardon me if I don't take your criticism constructively. I've been doing this almost 19 years and am still here...still kicking...still thriving...while all the other sites that once had people posting on them are essentially dead or erased completely.

This coming from the guy who said he was going to leave. :pound:

THEY NEVER LEAVE...because this place ROCKS! :ThmbUp:

Yeah!:ThmbUp:

[Denny]

Some rain.
Another thrilling card in NY.
Scratches galore.

Dumb sport.

[the little guy]

Some rain.
Another thrilling card in NY.
Scratches galore.

Dumb sport.

I knew we shouldn't have scheduled rain today. I just knew it.

[Denny]

I knew we shouldn't have scheduled rain today. I just knew it.

It's dumb because the track has no back up when it rains.
Scratch and take races off the turf and expect the suckers to bet anyway.

Divide the purse to the 4, 5 or 6 who run.
It's a crime how bad this sport is.

Living on borrowed time off casino dole thanks to crooked politicians and racetracks.

[the little guy]

It's dumb because the track has no back up when it rains.
Scratch and take races off the turf and expect the suckers to bet anyway.

Divide the purse to the 4, 5 or 6 who run.
It's a crime how bad this sport is.

Living on borrowed time off casino dole thanks to crooked politicians and racetracks.

Wait, you recently complained about MTOs, and now you are complaining that there weren't enough?

It was a mediocre card to begin with and obviously not good after the rain. It happens. The racing has been strong this meet, and the numbers are reflecting that, but in today's environment you will have bad days sometimes....and rain only exacerbates that.

It happens. Hardly worth blowing a gasket over.

[Denny]

No racing secretary has EVER used MTOs to make races go or fill....they are protection in case races get rained off the grass. It's hard to imagine anyone not understanding this implicitly. A racing secretary could possibly be criticized for not getting enough MTOs, especially when rain is imminent, not the opposite.

I understand how it works. I've been following this dumb sport for over 40 years (got hooked young, before I knew how bad it was).

But, they list MTO's - plus horses they know are going to scratch all the time in NY.

It gives the APPEARANCE of bigger fields. It's bs.

Hello Andy.

[Denny]

Wait, you recently complained about MTOs, and now you are complaining that there weren't enough?

It was a mediocre card to begin with and obviously not good after the rain. It happens. The racing has been strong this meet, and the numbers are reflecting that, but in today's environment you will have bad days sometimes....and rain only exacerbates that.

It happens. Hardly worth blowing a gasket over.

Hardly worth betting on.

[the little guy]

I understand how it works. I've been following this dumb sport for over 40 years (got hooked young, before I knew how bad it was).

But, they list MTO's - plus horses they know are going to scratch all the time in NY.

It gives the APPEARANCE of bigger fields. It's bs.

Hello Andy.

"they" don't list horses they know are going to scratch, either all the time or basically any of the time. These are silly things that people make up and present as fact. It's just foolish.

You seem to worry about an awful lot of things that are either untrue or irrelevant.

[the little guy]

Hardly worth betting on.

Then don't bet it.

I had a good day today. I like off the turf days occasionally. They present value fairly often.

[Denny]

Stop spewing bullshit. PA doesn’t hide from anybody. In fact many of us on this board have spent several days together in Saratoga, Belmont and other places. There are some damn fine people on this board.


So, what's his real name?

[RunForTheRoses]

I understand how it works. I've been following this dumb sport for over 40 years (got hooked young, before I knew how bad it was).

But, they list MTO's - plus horses they know are going to scratch all the time in NY.

It gives the APPEARANCE of bigger fields. It's bs.

Hello Andy.


And you disrespect this website yet biggies post (and who knows how many lurk)-Andy, Vic, Paul Matties,Dave Schwartz, Bob Pandolfo, Ellis Starr, plus others (some not "names" but just as strong). You may be disenchanted with horse racing which is understandable in 2018 but there is no better Horse Racing website.

[Denny]

"they" don't list horses they know are going to scratch, either all the time or basically any of the time. These are silly things that people make up and present as fact. It's just foolish.

You seem to worry about an awful lot of things that are either untrue or irrelevant.

Come on.

NYRA let's trainers see who's running first, then scratch if they don't like it.
Happens all the time, especially with certain trainers.

You can scratch for practically any reason in NY.
That's just the way it is, and has been for a long time.

Don't try putting one over on me.

I'm glad you had a good day. I couldn't be bothered even looking at pp's.

Far better places to spend my time handicapping and betting.

[Denny]

And you disrespect this website yet biggies post (and who knows how many lurk)-Andy, Vic, Paul Matties,Dave Schwartz, Bob Pandolfo, Ellis Starr, plus others (some not "names" but just as strong). You may be disenchanted with horse racing which is understandable in 2018 but there is no better Horse Racing website.

Check the sequence of dialogue on these threads and you will find I don't insult people here till AFTER THEY INSULT ME FIRST.

I'm just responding to turds like PA. (Whoever he is)

Why does everybody here think they have to defend others here.
Can't they speak for themselves.
Do they need people like you to speak for them?

[Denny]

Run for Roses,

I respect and like several of the people you mentioned, though not all.

I'll be at Saratoga if anyone thinks they want to talk in person.

If they are civil and don't just start spewing hatred and obscenities.

I'll even tell people where to find me if they contact me privately.

(Tom, that doesn't include you - or PA, whoever he is, unless he comes out of hiding behind a fake name)

[Denny]

I want to clarify something.

The reason I'm posting on this (Were In Trouble) thread and the Bogus Beyers thread is that I started both threads and feel I should see them through.

I don't plan on contributing anything new or original any more on this website.

I'll be elsewhere. Some of you know where.

I think PA is what I said he was, and don't want to give him any more of myself.

My postings will be less and less frequent. Except to laugh or groan with emoji's at some of the absurdities posted here.

Denny

[JustRalph]

So, what's his real name?

Yeah right.........stop being a douche.......

[jimmyb]

I want to clarify something.

The reason I'm posting on this (Were In Trouble) thread and the Bogus Beyers thread is that I started both threads and feel I should see them through.


Denny

Will you leave if PA closes the threads? Seriously Denny, throw in the towel.

[PaceAdvantage]

I want to clarify something.

The reason I'm posting on this (Were In Trouble) thread and the Bogus Beyers thread is that I started both threads and feel I should see them through.

I don't plan on contributing anything new or original any more on this website.

I'll be elsewhere. Some of you know where.

I think PA is what I said he was, and don't want to give him any more of myself.

My postings will be less and less frequent. Except to laugh or groan with emoji's at some of the absurdities posted here.

DennyDude, you're comedy GOLD.

But for the life of me, I don't understand why Andy is wasting even one second responding to your drivel.

Weren't you leaving? No better place to go? Why am I not surprised.

[Denny]

Check the sequence of dialogue on these threads and you will find I don't insult people here till AFTER THEY INSULT ME FIRST.

I'm just responding to turds like PA. (Whoever he is)

Why does everybody here think they have to defend others here.
Can't they speak for themselves.
Do they need people like you to speak for them?

Repeat above. Over and over again, PA.

Why should I quit when I'm right?

Irritating too many people that know it to be true?!

[PaceAdvantage]

Repeat above. Over and over again, PA.

Why should I quit when I'm right?

Irritating too many people that know it to be true?!Nobody is irritated except for you. That much is pretty clear.

I take that back. I lost by a nostril on a 46-1 shot at Canterbury, and I'm having a shitty day all around with my picks (that's bound to cheer you up), so I'm a little irritated too.