Rick Dutrow - Time served is enough

[Denny]

The last time I posted a comment in favor of Dale Roman's petition to have Mr Dutrow's suspension reduced to time served, I got a lot of flak and push-back from many of you here at PA.

Maybe some of you will reconsider your hard-line positions after reading the following:

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/On-The-Line/comments/racing-community-procedural-law-cuomo-clemency-program-supports-license-rei/

Denny

[PaceAdvantage]

And here I thought the following claim was blown to smithereens on another recent thread about Dutrow:

• No horse trained by Dutrow suffered a fatal breakdown at a New York track, either racing or in training, for 11 consecutive years.

I'm pretty sure this isn't true...as are a lot of other people...but whatever.

I agree he should be reinstated.

[Denny]

PA,
That was the same thread where I posted before. Someone else, can't remember who right now, posted a link to Mr Pricci's previous work on the subject as well. Along with someone else's article.

I don't know personally about the 11 year stretch. Maybe it was during one particular stretch of Dutrow's career.
But, JP is a well respected turf writer who has been covering the sport for more than 40 years.

I'll take his word for it.

And besides, why focus just on that. There's so much more to the story. Did you read it?

[Tom]

Sure, let all the cheaters back in.
Why should we have any concern for the integrity of the game?

Maybe the whales will eat him.

[Denny]

Tom, you were the one I most had in mind. Have you bothered to look at the facts? Or is your mind made up without even reading the article?

I'll stay out of it and let the rest of you have your say and decide for yourselves what's right.

[Tom]

He cheated more than once.
ANYONE who cheats more than once should be out for at LEAST 10 years.

I don't need to read any articles.

We need him back in racing like we needed a second thread on it.

****
OK, I just read it.
Nothing there.
He is a multiple cheater.
NOTHING in that article changes that.

[Denny]

Not even the 1900+ signatures and counting on the petition, Tom?
Or the things that weren't brought up before?

At least you read it and give you credit for that much. Though don't agree.

I hope others here can give it a read.

You guys are right about one thing, I didn't need to start a new thread.
I could have added to the previous one if I knew where it was or who started it.
My bad.

If you can name another trainer that was railroaded like Dutrow and given that kind of suspension... I'd be interested in knowing.

[PaceAdvantage]

But, JP is a well respected turf writerHe is?

[PaceAdvantage]

And besides, why focus just on that. There's so much more to the story. Did you read it?Yeah I wasted my time reading it.

And I focused just on that because we've already rehashed everything else to death in the other thread.

Who cares how many trainers signed a petition. Haven't most of the signers been busted a few times themselves? Shocking they would want to give clemency to one of their own.

But like I've already said a million times, I actually agree with you he should be let back in, but maybe not for the same reasons as you.

[slewis]

I haven't posted on PA for probably 5 or 6 years, but every so often I'll go to the site for a laugh.
It's fun to see the same grumpy old men arguing over the same issues with the usual characters taking shots at each other.
But when I saw this thread about Rick, I had to jump in.
For those who don't know or remember, I had horses I managed with Rick (and Mott and Pletcher and Chad and Tagg, etc).
Everyone is missing the point with Rick Dutrow's ten year suspension.
Everyone who is not directly involved in this sport (like most on PA) and even some who post here who are, need to understand the following:
The people who really run this sport, the elite, wealthy and influential owners, WILL NEVER GIVE UP THE COMPLETE CONTROL OF THIS INDUSTRY. It is THEIR PLAYGROUND. The main function most other owners serve is to have horses that are like sparring partners for these elite owners horses to beat up on.
The only function the gamblers serve is to help alleviate some of the enormous bills it costs to run even a small racing operation.
They could care less about any of you and how much you lose or if a cheating trainers horse beats you in a trifecta.
That being said:
If you want to stop (some) cheating, they must allow law enforcement to directly get results of drug testing and let THEM make the decisions on prosecution and penalty.
Secondly, these law enforcement entities cannot be influenced or play favorites with those influential and elite owners and members of the board of directors of any racetracks (see Rusty Arnolds and Graham Motion's recent reversals). This too will never happen since anyone wealthy and influential can make a call and open their checkbook to make things go away.
Until that day comes (and, duh, it never will) everyone is at the mercy of racetrack management who is at the mercy of the wealthy and elite who are the stakeholders in this sport.
So lets see how smart some of the grumpy old men are, who think that what happened to Dutrow was justified.
Test results go to racing management, and they decide who gets suspended (and who gets swept under the rug) and racing management is in the pockets of the wealthy and elite owners (and board of directors).
Rick Dutrow was routinely beating their million dollar stock and blueblood trainers and yes, he had some positives. But I guarantee you no more and MORE IMPORTANTLY no more serious than Asmussen, Pletcher and other major trainers in the game.
The difference is, Rick didn't train for major, well connected owners (Mike Dubb wasn't the force he is now when Rick went down).
So now I'll tell you something that may or may not come as a shock, but trust me, this is fact and anyone on here that knows me knows I don't bull shit so you can take this to the bank.
While Rick's case was ongoing, I was approached by a very prominent attorney and horse owner. This attorney, factually and routinely, gets trainers off when they come up with positives. He asked me how friendly I was with Rick. I told him not extremely friendly but I can call him anytime and he always took my calls. He told me to tell Rick to fire his lawyers, that his case had ALREADY been decided and he was getting 10 years no matter what defense his attorney(s) put forth. He told me to have Rick call him and hire him and that he'd have him back in under 4 years, probably closer to 3. True story.
The rest is history.
So now that I'm on this rant, I'm going to share a fun racing story.
Before I do, when everything went down with NYRA and the new Board of Directors was set up, wasn't there a rule that no board members could serve more than five years?
I'm curious how guys like Stuart Janney and Steven Duncker (I know Phipps is dead, praise the lord, I'd piss on his f-ing grave if I could) are still serving on the board?
I notice others too are still on the board, which leaves me into my story which epitomizes some of what I said above.
Probably 13 years ago, Duncker runs a New York Bred he owns and puts the horse in a $35K claimer. Now I know the horse had some issues up front, Stevie Wonder might have been able to pick up on that, but he was a turf horse and it was winter and he kept running him on the dirt which I felt was making the issue worse. I convinced a client to claim him telling him that we'll give him 90 days and bring him back on the turf when Belmont starts.
So on race day, I fill out the claim slip and drop it in the claim box. Mike Lakow, the ------- racing secretary at that time, saw me drop a slip. The guy hates me. F-him. I hate him too. While the race is going on, he opens the box and looks at the slip and proceeds to tell me and my trainer that he's voiding the claim because he doesn't recognize my signature and it won't match the signature on file as agent. CLAIM IS VOID.
They had to restrain me from jumping over the desk and beating his ass, but I noticed the horse didn't run well and finished next to last. I stormed out of the racing office.
The next day, the stewards call me and tell me that I HAVE to take the horse and that they were reversing Lakow's decision.
I laughed and told them "NO F--ing way". I said "I don't know what they did to that horse last night. You guys voided the claim, we have NO DEAL". They called me three times throughout the morning telling me I HAD to take the horse.
Then a friend calls me who tells me word is around that that horse was lame and it's a good thing I didn't claim him.
This is the type of shit that goes on in the racing game and honestly, I don't miss it one bit.
After going to the races every single day for almost 15 years, the only thing I do now is advising on some breeding and buying a few babies for new owners. This sport is a disgrace and those that run it are trash.

[thaskalos]

I am certain that the horseplayers could collect MORE than 1,916 signatures in "less than a fortnight"...in support of the modernization of the game's antiquated money-processing equipment. Would that change anything? :rolleyes:

[Afleet]

I haven't posted on PA for probably 5 or 6 years, but every so often I'll go to the site for a laugh.
It's fun to see the same grumpy old men arguing over the same issues with the usual characters taking shots at each other.
But when I saw this thread about Rick, I had to jump in.
For those who don't know or remember, I had horses I managed with Rick (and Mott and Pletcher and Chad and Tagg, etc).
Everyone is missing the point with Rick Dutrow's ten year suspension.
Everyone who is not directly involved in this sport (like most on PA) and even some who post here who are, need to understand the following:
The people who really run this sport, the elite, wealthy and influential owners, WILL NEVER GIVE UP THE COMPLETE CONTROL OF THIS INDUSTRY. It is THEIR PLAYGROUND. The main function most other owners serve is to have horses that are like sparring partners for these elite owners horses to beat up on.
The only function the gamblers serve is to help alleviate some of the enormous bills it costs to run even a small racing operation.
They could care less about any of you and how much you lose or if a cheating trainers horse beats you in a trifecta.
That being said:
If you want to stop (some) cheating, they must allow law enforcement to directly get results of drug testing and let THEM make the decisions on prosecution and penalty.
Secondly, these law enforcement entities cannot be influenced or play favorites with those influential and elite owners and members of the board of directors of any racetracks (see Rusty Arnolds and Graham Motion's recent reversals). This too will never happen since anyone wealthy and influential can make a call and open their checkbook to make things go away.
Until that day comes (and, duh, it never will) everyone is at the mercy of racetrack management who is at the mercy of the wealthy and elite who are the stakeholders in this sport.
So lets see how smart some of the grumpy old men are, who think that what happened to Dutrow was justified.
Test results go to racing management, and they decide who gets suspended (and who gets swept under the rug) and racing management is in the pockets of the wealthy and elite owners (and board of directors).
Rick Dutrow was routinely beating their million dollar stock and blueblood trainers and yes, he had some positives. But I guarantee you no more and MORE IMPORTANTLY no more serious than Asmussen, Pletcher and other major trainers in the game.
The difference is, Rick didn't train for major, well connected owners (Mike Dubb wasn't the force he is now when Rick went down).
So now I'll tell you something that may or may not come as a shock, but trust me, this is fact and anyone on here that knows me knows I don't bull shit so you can take this to the bank.
While Rick's case was ongoing, I was approached by a very prominent attorney and horse owner. This attorney, factually and routinely, gets trainers off when they come up with positives. He asked me how friendly I was with Rick. I told him not extremely friendly but I can call him anytime and he always took my calls. He told me to tell Rick to fire his lawyers, that his case had ALREADY been decided and he was getting 10 years no matter what defense his attorney(s) put forth. He told me to have Rick call him and hire him and that he'd have him back in under 4 years, probably closer to 3. True story.
The rest is history.
So now that I'm on this rant, I'm going to share a fun racing story.
Before I do, when everything went down with NYRA and the new Board of Directors was set up, wasn't there a rule that no board members could serve more than five years?
I'm curious how guys like Stuart Janney and Steven Duncker (I know Phipps is dead, praise the lord, I'd piss on his f-ing grave if I could) are still serving on the board?
I notice others too are still on the board, which leaves me into my story which epitomizes some of what I said above.
Probably 13 years ago, Duncker runs a New York Bred he owns and puts the horse in a $35K claimer. Now I know the horse had some issues up front, Stevie Wonder might have been able to pick up on that, but he was a turf horse and it was winter and he kept running him on the dirt which I felt was making the issue worse. I convinced a client to claim him telling him that we'll give him 90 days and bring him back on the turf when Belmont starts.
So on race day, I fill out the claim slip and drop it in the claim box. Mike Lakow, the drunken racing secretary at that time, saw me drop a slip. The guy hates me. F-him. I hate him too. While the race is going on, he opens the box and looks at the slip and proceeds to tell me and my trainer that he's voiding the claim because he doesn't recognize my signature and it won't match the signature on file as agent. CLAIM IS VOID.
They had to restrain me from jumping over the desk and beating his ass, but I noticed the horse didn't run well and finished next to last. I stormed out of the racing office.
The next day, the stewards call me and tell me that I HAVE to take the horse and that they were reversing Lakow's decision.
I laughed and told them "NO F--ing way". I said "I don't know what they did to that horse last night. You guys voided the claim, we have NO DEAL". They called me three times throughout the morning telling me I HAD to take the horse.
Then a friend calls me who tells me word is around that that horse was lame and it's a good thing I didn't claim him.
This is the type of shit that goes on in the racing game and honestly, I don't miss it one bit.
After going to the races every single day for almost 15 years, the only thing I do now is advising on some breeding and buying a few babies for new owners. This sport is a disgrace and those that run it are trash.

This is probably the best post I have ever read here. Please post more. I may have changed my mind about Dutrow-didn't think that would have been possible before.

[thaskalos]

I haven't posted on PA for probably 5 or 6 years, but every so often I'll go to the site for a laugh.
It's fun to see the same grumpy old men arguing over the same issues with the usual characters taking shots at each other.
But when I saw this thread about Rick, I had to jump in.
For those who don't know or remember, I had horses I managed with Rick (and Mott and Pletcher and Chad and Tagg, etc).
Everyone is missing the point with Rick Dutrow's ten year suspension.
Everyone who is not directly involved in this sport (like most on PA) and even some who post here who are, need to understand the following:
The people who really run this sport, the elite, wealthy and influential owners, WILL NEVER GIVE UP THE COMPLETE CONTROL OF THIS INDUSTRY. It is THEIR PLAYGROUND. The main function most other owners serve is to have horses that are like sparring partners for these elite owners horses to beat up on.
The only function the gamblers serve is to help alleviate some of the enormous bills it costs to run even a small racing operation.
They could care less about any of you and how much you lose or if a cheating trainers horse beats you in a trifecta.
That being said:
If you want to stop (some) cheating, they must allow law enforcement to directly get results of drug testing and let THEM make the decisions on prosecution and penalty.
Secondly, these law enforcement entities cannot be influenced or play favorites with those influential and elite owners and members of the board of directors of any racetracks (see Rusty Arnolds and Graham Motion's recent reversals). This too will never happen since anyone wealthy and influential can make a call and open their checkbook to make things go away.
Until that day comes (and, duh, it never will) everyone is at the mercy of racetrack management who is at the mercy of the wealthy and elite who are the stakeholders in this sport.
So lets see how smart some of the grumpy old men are, who think that what happened to Dutrow was justified.
Test results go to racing management, and they decide who gets suspended (and who gets swept under the rug) and racing management is in the pockets of the wealthy and elite owners (and board of directors).
Rick Dutrow was routinely beating their million dollar stock and blueblood trainers and yes, he had some positives. But I guarantee you no more and MORE IMPORTANTLY no more serious than Asmussen, Pletcher and other major trainers in the game.
The difference is, Rick didn't train for major, well connected owners (Mike Dubb wasn't the force he is now when Rick went down).
So now I'll tell you something that may or may not come as a shock, but trust me, this is fact and anyone on here that knows me knows I don't bull shit so you can take this to the bank.
While Rick's case was ongoing, I was approached by a very prominent attorney and horse owner. This attorney, factually and routinely, gets trainers off when they come up with positives. He asked me how friendly I was with Rick. I told him not extremely friendly but I can call him anytime and he always took my calls. He told me to tell Rick to fire his lawyers, that his case had ALREADY been decided and he was getting 10 years no matter what defense his attorney(s) put forth. He told me to have Rick call him and hire him and that he'd have him back in under 4 years, probably closer to 3. True story.
The rest is history.
So now that I'm on this rant, I'm going to share a fun racing story.
Before I do, when everything went down with NYRA and the new Board of Directors was set up, wasn't there a rule that no board members could serve more than five years?
I'm curious how guys like Stuart Janney and Steven Duncker (I know Phipps is dead, praise the lord, I'd piss on his f-ing grave if I could) are still serving on the board?
I notice others too are still on the board, which leaves me into my story which epitomizes some of what I said above.
Probably 13 years ago, Duncker runs a New York Bred he owns and puts the horse in a $35K claimer. Now I know the horse had some issues up front, Stevie Wonder might have been able to pick up on that, but he was a turf horse and it was winter and he kept running him on the dirt which I felt was making the issue worse. I convinced a client to claim him telling him that we'll give him 90 days and bring him back on the turf when Belmont starts.
So on race day, I fill out the claim slip and drop it in the claim box. Mike Lakow, the ------- racing secretary at that time, saw me drop a slip. The guy hates me. F-him. I hate him too. While the race is going on, he opens the box and looks at the slip and proceeds to tell me and my trainer that he's voiding the claim because he doesn't recognize my signature and it won't match the signature on file as agent. CLAIM IS VOID.
They had to restrain me from jumping over the desk and beating his ass, but I noticed the horse didn't run well and finished next to last. I stormed out of the racing office.
The next day, the stewards call me and tell me that I HAVE to take the horse and that they were reversing Lakow's decision.
I laughed and told them "NO F--ing way". I said "I don't know what they did to that horse last night. You guys voided the claim, we have NO DEAL". They called me three times throughout the morning telling me I HAD to take the horse.
Then a friend calls me who tells me word is around that that horse was lame and it's a good thing I didn't claim him.
This is the type of shit that goes on in the racing game and honestly, I don't miss it one bit.
After going to the races every single day for almost 15 years, the only thing I do now is advising on some breeding and buying a few babies for new owners. This sport is a disgrace and those that run it are trash.

And you think that letting Dutrow back in the game will IMPROVE things?

[JustRalph]

How about all those folks who bred to Big Brown? He’s a failure at stud..........you think they want to let Dutrow back.....?

[slewis]

What I made clear is that Rick was never caught with any kind of "super-chemical" or positives that would move horses up 10 lengths.
Look at what Biancone had. Snake venom. A drop will kill any pain a horse feels and their natural protections taken away. This puts Jockey and rider in danger (as well as other Jockeys and horses).
I saw Biancone down in Ocala last month and I wanted to puke.
Do things the right way. Define the punishments.
At what positive did Rick go from 60 days to 5 years?
I'll tell you when. Go google Ed Martin. This piece of shit has had it out for Rick for a decade and he was hell bent at ending his career for a decade.
But Asmussen and Pletcher who routinely have attorneys get them off, train on.
I also made it clear that the way the sport is structured, THEY DON'T WANT TO CLEAN IT UP!

[dilanesp]

When you study criminal law in law school, one of its purposes is deterrence. Essentially, a person goes to jail not simply as punishment for his own crimes, but also to set an example for others. To let the next person know that if she does the same thing, she can expect to be treated harshly.

The key point about deterrence is that pleas for clemency hurt it. if the next person figures she needn't worry about getting the maximum punishment, she may decide it is more worth the risk.

Rick Dutrow wasn't given 10 years because of a careful analysis of how long the sport needed to be protected from him. He was given it so everybody else knew what would happen to repeat offenders.

Further, it is always the rich and connected who get the organized pleas for mercy. Dutrow's father was himself a major trainer. He obviously has powerful friends. If he was some nobody from Emerald Downs there would be no plea signed by famous trainers.

It is extremely important that Dutrow serve his full sentence. It will show that your powerful friends can't help you when you do this.

[slewis]

Lol... and you think that it was what Rick was giving him that made Big Brown a super racehorse but a failure at the breeding shed?

Your knowledge of Thoroughbred breeding history needs more study.

Secondly, if you think those at Claiborne farm are stupid, you are wrong.
Spend time on the inside of this game and you'll learn that the biggest and smartest farms in this sport take risks with stallions and sometimes lose.
Would you like examples?

[slewis]

That's great counsellor. Now go read the definition of "Arbitrary and Capricious".

[thaskalos]

Slewis...here is what you seem to miss:

This is a site populated mainly by horseplayers...and sympathy for cheating trainers is in short supply here. When the argument is made that other trainers in the game are bigger cheaters than Dutrow, then the sentiment here will most likely be that the other cheating trainers should be handed 10-year suspensions too...not that Dutrow should be reinstated after serving only half his sentence.

[slewis]

I fully understand and I'm very sympathetic.
I used to be an active player too and have experienced the pain of getting beat by a trainer I thought was taking an edge.

But everyone has to understand that this is America. You can't take a man's life away unless it's predefined as to what the punishments are and for how long and how many. And, we reasonably can be assured that the rules are the same for everyone. Until the day comes when positives (or at least copies of) go to a district attorneys office, I'm not comfortable at all with the status quo.

I'm telling everyone that trainers get positives swept under the rug while others are hung out to dry.

[thaskalos]

I fully understand and I'm very sympathetic.
I used to be an active player too and have experienced the pain of getting beat by a trainer I thought was taking an edge.

But everyone has to understand that this is America. You can't take a man's life away unless it's predefined as to what the punishments are and for how long and how many. And, we reasonably can be assured that the rules are the same for everyone. Until the day comes when positives (or at least copies of) go to a district attorneys office, I'm not comfortable at all with the status quo.

I'm telling everyone that trainers get positives swept under the rug while others are hung out to dry.

I think most of us here are aware of the fact that positives get swept under the rug for certain trainers. I am reminded of a column that Andy Beyer wrote some years ago...where he revealed that drug positives in some stakes races in California were only given slap-on-the-wrist fines without any publicity, because the authorities there were worried about further tarnishing the game's already maligned reputation.

IMO...Dutrow was treated as a "sacrificial lamb"...and his excessive suspension was a smokescreen, meant to shield the improprieties of other trainers...while giving the impression to the long-suffering fan that the industry was finally "cracking down" on trainer thievery. But, as I said before...the horseplayer has no appetite for any "pleas for mercy" for thieving trainers...no matter HOW "unfairly" they may have been treated by the establishment.

Yes...Dutrow was denied his livelihood at the track for the last 5 years. But, let's not forget that he wasn't exactly INNOCENT. The game sets the rules...and the players break them at their peril. The game doesn't owe ANYBODY a "living".

[jay68802]

Lol... and you think that it was what Rick was giving him that made Big Brown a super racehorse but a failure at the breeding shed?

Your knowledge of Thoroughbred breeding history needs more study.

Secondly, if you think those at Claiborne farm are stupid, you are wrong.
Spend time on the inside of this game and you'll learn that the biggest and smartest farms in this sport take risks with stallions and sometimes lose.
Would you like examples?

Big Brown

[dilanesp]

That's great counsellor. Now go read the definition of "Arbitrary and Capricious".

Deterrent sentences are not arbitrary and capricious (a term whose legal meaning I suspect you do not even know). Deterrence is, along with rehabilitation, incapacitation, and punishment, one of the four legally permissible purposes of a criminal sentence. Indeed, caselaw permits both specific deterrence (deterring the specific offender from offending again) and general deterrence (deterring other offenders).

There is nothing arbitrary about "throwing the book" at a particular offender to reduce the likelihood that others offend. Nothing at all.

If you don't like this, fine, you don't like the Anglo-American justice system. But it isn't unfair for Rick Dutrow to be severely punished pursuant to its basic principles, just because he is wealthy and is from an established family in racing and has a bunch of powerful friends who will try to run interference for him and his repeated acts of dishonesty, animal cruelty, and cheating.

[biggestal99]

Tom, you were the one I most had in mind. Have you bothered to look at the facts? Or is your mind made up without even reading the article?

I'll stay out of it and let the rest of you have your say and decide for yourselves what's right.


Let him serve his time and than come back.

This time off from racing maybe has shown him the error or his ways.

Allan

[biggestal99]

Lol... and you think that it was what Rick was giving him that made Big Brown a super racehorse but a failure at the breeding shed?

Your knowledge of Thoroughbred breeding history needs more study.

Secondly, if you think those at Claiborne farm are stupid, you are wrong.
Spend time on the inside of this game and you'll learn that the biggest and smartest farms in this sport take risks with stallions and sometimes lose.
Would you like examples?

Boundary yuck,

Big brown was a bad risk.

Allan

[Pensacola Pete]

It isn't as though Dutrow's suspension has reduced the amount of cheating done by others. If anything, it's made them more cagey.

Or are there supposed to be dozens of guys, who either weren't in the business ten years ago or were lucky to reach a 10% strike rate, now hitting 30%+ winners?

The pharmacists should stand in the winner's circle with party hats on, blow cardboard New Years horns, and shout "Surprise!" when their deep closer who hasn't been within 5 lengths of the pace at any call in its last ten races wires the field and pays $8.60.

Fixing it properly by going after everybody who's cheating would result in a scandal of such vast proportions, that involved hundreds, if not thousands of people, that the industry would be effectively terminated. From the point of view of the industry, it's better to have cheating, lack of growth, and slowly-crumbling infrastructure than nothing at all.

[dilanesp]

It isn't as though Dutrow's suspension has reduced the amount of cheating done by others. If anything, it's made them more cagey.

Or are there supposed to be dozens of guys, who either weren't in the business ten years ago or were lucky to reach a 10% strike rate, now hitting 30%+ winners?

The pharmacists should stand in the winner's circle with party hats on, blow cardboard New Years horns, and shout "Surprise!" when their deep closer who hasn't been within 5 lengths of the pace at any call in its last ten races wires the field and pays $8.60.

Fixing it properly by going after everybody who's cheating would result in a scandal of such vast proportions, that involved hundreds, if not thousands of people, that the industry would be effectively terminated. From the point of view of the industry, it's better to have cheating, lack of growth, and slowly-crumbling infrastructure than nothing at all.

I can't speak to the rest of the country, but Southern California used to have several 30 percent trainers with big bsrns. Now we have one, and his barn is full of the most expensive sales graduates.

[AskinHaskin]

The last time I posted a comment in favor of Dale Roman's petition to have Mr Dutrow's suspension reduced to time served, I got a lot of flak and push-back from many of you here at PA.

Maybe some of you will reconsider your hard-line positions after reading the following:

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/On-The-Line/comments/racing-community-procedural-law-cuomo-clemency-program-supports-license-rei/

Denny



Who in their right mind comes to a horse racing website and cites a story which blames Barry Bonds for any of horse racing's problems, and expects that story to carry any weight at all?



One need do no more than view Dutrow Jr's. career record as a trainer to gain a strong sense that he's no more than a man who found the good stuff and then rode the crest of his discovery, for a while, until the jig was up.

(as has been the case for many other criminals throughout time)

A major difference is, while most criminals do indeed have every right to re-enter public society after the terms of their sentences are up, no private entity such as a race track need ever permit such a criminal on its grounds again. No just cause is needed.


Consider that, sixteen years after Rick Dutrow Jr. started his first horse, he had but two career wins.

Soon after, he rocketed to 28% and never had a complete year below 22% winners again.


As for the lack of positive drug tests, the measure of a criminal in the court of public opinion is not, and should never be based on how many times he got caught.


Dutrow's plight is a lot like that of "the fog jockey", where perhaps nobody saw him do it, but lengthy suspensions were still appropriate in both cases.

Dutrow's collection of friends bothering to sign a petition is a pointless exercise and bound to be as effective as petitioning the neighbors surrounding your average criminal's free-world residence as if that should be enough will to have the criminal set free.

In the end, Dutrow and Carmouche get the same reputation despite their parallel sentiments:

"I know I ain't did it."

[stuball]

Put me down as wanting to let him come back but only as a bathroom attendant or a hot dog server -- I hate cheaters of any kind and it is a well established fact he cheated...The other trainers are looking out for themselves if he comes back it establishes a precedent that they can use if they are ever in that position...precedent is all inportant

Stuball

[Denny]

Thank you for all the contributions, especially the ones from inside the game.
I'm just a horseplayer and only know what goes on from the outside.

My take so far from the comments:

Horseracing is a crooked-ass game - which I've always known.

Horseplayers are a hard-assed bunch - more so than I knew.

[I'd like to hear more from people that really know. Especially what goes on at the highest levels. Have always suspected that the more money on the line, the more cheating that goes on.
They drilled Oscar back in the day too. Couldn't stand to have their blue-bloods beaten by claimers. (Think I'm happiest betting the lower-level races and will concentrate on them.)
But, now I'm going off topic.]

Carry on.

[dilanesp]

Thank you for all the contributions, especially the ones from inside the game.
I'm just a horseplayer and only know what goes on from the outside.

My take so far from the comments:

Horseracing is a crooked-ass game - which I've always known.

Horseplayers are a hard-assed bunch - more so than I knew.

[I'd like to hear more from people that really know. Especially what goes on at the highest levels. Have always suspected that the more money on the line, the more cheating that goes on.
They drilled Oscar back in the day too. Couldn't stand to have their blue-bloods beaten by claimers. (Think I'm happiest betting the lower-level races and will concentrate on them.)
But, now I'm going off topic.]

Carry on.

I am not really that hard-assed in this sense: I can see the case for leniency or to commute the punishment of a trainer who really seems to be reformed and could be a benefit to the game.

But I really resent these sorts of campaigns on behalf of rich and powerful people. There's a film regarding "Chappaquiddick" that is about to come out. Politically, I am an admirer of Ted Kennedy's politics, but I absolutely hate the strings that were pulled for him in a situation that, if it had happened to me or anyone on this board, would have resulted in some jail or even prison time.

What I don't like about Dutrow is he is obviously having his many friends and connections make a case for leniency that I know that a less connected person would never receive. If we are going to have some mercy, we should start by having it for the folks who aren't the upper crust of racing. Someone like Dutrow should be made an example and serve out his full sentence.

[PaceAdvantage]

I am not really that hard-assed in this sense: I can see the case for leniency or to commute the punishment of a trainer who really seems to be reformed and could be a benefit to the game.

But I really resent these sorts of campaigns on behalf of rich and powerful people. There's a film regarding "Chappaquiddick" that is about to come out. Politically, I am an admirer of Ted Kennedy's politics, but I absolutely hate the strings that were pulled for him in a situation that, if it had happened to me or anyone on this board, would have resulted in some jail or even prison time.

What I don't like about Dutrow is he is obviously having his many friends and connections make a case for leniency that I know that a less connected person would never receive. If we are going to have some mercy, we should start by having it for the folks who aren't the upper crust of racing. Someone like Dutrow should be made an example and serve out his full sentence.I'm not so sure Dutrow should be counted as among the elite and the rich and powerful...dude filed for personal bankruptcy not too long ago...

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/people/report-suspended-trainer-dutrow-files-bankruptcy-protection/

[Michael]

Put me down as wanting to let him come back but only as a bathroom attendant or a hot dog server -- I hate cheaters of any kind and it is a well established fact he cheated...The other trainers are looking out for themselves if he comes back it establishes a precedent that they can use if they are ever in that position...precedent is all inportant

Stuball

I'm in the same boat as Stuball. When I got serious about horse-racing there was several trainers that ALWAYS got mentioned as cheaters. Dutrow was one of them. Why do I care about a petition with signatures? I don't. Not one bit. In fact, how about they go after other cheaters. :kiss:

[Denny]

I never thought of Dutrow as an "upper crust" trainer. More of a guy that worked his way up from a smaller circuit - Maryland to NY.

Who are the rich and famous owners he trained for?

Maybe I'm missing something? Dale Romans is like that too, a guy that worked his way up after working for his dad everywhere in Kentucky.

The point SLewis was making is that it is the highest class trainers that are getting away with probably far more than what Rick did.

They're the ones with the powerful owners behind them. We all know who they are.

----

I'll try to stay out of this again and let the rest of you share an opinion.

----

PS. It's not that I think Dutrow is totally innocent. It's more a question of fairness and not singling out one individual.

Totally agree about going after others - the ones covered with protection in particular.

[dilanesp]

I'm not so sure Dutrow should be counted as among the elite and the rich and powerful...dude filed for personal bankruptcy not too long ago...

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/people/report-suspended-trainer-dutrow-files-bankruptcy-protection/

Lots of people from wealthy families file for bankruptcy

Dutrow is, in fact, aristocracy. His father was a major, high percentage trainer in Maryland and New York for decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_E._Dutrow_Sr.

All the bankruptcy proves is that he blew all the money he made.

[PaceAdvantage]

Lots of people from wealthy families file for bankruptcy

Dutrow is, in fact, aristocracy. His father was a major, high percentage trainer in Maryland and New York for decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_E._Dutrow_Sr.

All the bankruptcy proves is that he blew all the money he made.You're making him and his family out to be the second coming of the Whitneys....

He's no blue blood, nor apparently, is he all that well off...just countering some of the misperceptions put out in this thread...

Maybe he has a stash of money somewhere in the Caymans...:rolleyes:

[Saratoga_Mike]

You're making him and his family out to be the second coming of the Whitneys....

He's no blue blood, nor apparently, is he all that well off...just countering some of the misperceptions put out in this thread...

Maybe he has a stash of money somewhere in the Caymans...:rolleyes:

He was reportedly living in a tack room in the late 80s/early 90s timeframe, not exactly a blue blood as you've correctly stated. I agreed with his ban, though.

[upthecreek]

https://twitter.com/TerryFinley11/status/984852935497707520

[chiguy]

I think a big part of his problem now is the smugness he displayed when he was on top. At least that is how he came across to me. I would have a lot more sympathy for someone who was more understated.

[slewis]

I’m never again going to get into a shoving match on here, so I’ll leave you with we agree to disagree.
But here are the facts:
Rick was not found guilty in a court of law. The courts just upheld the Kangaroo court that the Kentucky Racing Commission put forth. The same commission that’s in the pockets of the elite and powerful owners that Rick’s horses often beat, horses trained by their trainers who often did the same things and were using the same drugs (like Winstrol and Clembuterol) as Rick was.
The outcome of the legal case was predetermined, as per the prominent attorney who I know gets many trainers off of positives and suspensions.
The deal was, the way I see it, “get on your knees Rick and beg for forgiveness, and we’ll let you come back in 3-5 years. Fight a losing battle against our power and checkbooks, and your life is ruined.
In America, I’m not comfortable with anyone having to bow to the King(s).

[Ruffian1]

You're making him and his family out to be the second coming of the Whitneys....

He's no blue blood, nor apparently, is he all that well off...just countering some of the misperceptions put out in this thread...

Maybe he has a stash of money somewhere in the Caymans...:rolleyes:

There have been a few real good ones in here so far.

1. "The breeding failure"




No comment.



2. and 3. " One need do no more than view Dutrow Jr's. career record as a trainer to gain a strong sense that he's no more than a man who found the good stuff and then rode the crest of his discovery, for a while, until the jig was up. "
"Consider that, sixteen years after Rick Dutrow Jr. started his first horse, he had but two career wins."
Soon after, he rocketed to 28% and never had a complete year below 22% winners again."



Roughly 20 starters over 16 years with no horses at all for 9 years in the middle and the other 7 years he had one 4,500 dollar claimer at a time off and on.



4. "But I really resent these sorts of campaigns on behalf of rich and powerful people. "


Pretty strong and I know it's still early but the leader in the clubhouse for me is:


5. " Dutrow is, in fact, aristocracy."

While this is pure fiction it sounds really decisive. Great job misleading everybody that does not know otherwise. Unfortunately, I do.

[therussmeister]

Put me down as wanting to let him come back but only as a bathroom attendant or a hot dog server --

Stuball

Just don't let him come back as a bathroom attendant AND a hot dog server.

[dilanesp]

You're making him and his family out to be the second coming of the Whitneys....

He's no blue blood, nor apparently, is he all that well off...just countering some of the misperceptions put out in this thread...

Maybe he has a stash of money somewhere in the Caymans...:rolleyes:

Aristocracy doesn't have to mean "old money". Dutrow started from a very advantaged place and that's why he has so many buddies running interference for him.

[dilanesp]

There have been a few real good ones in here so far.

1. "The breeding failure"




No comment.



2. and 3. " One need do no more than view Dutrow Jr's. career record as a trainer to gain a strong sense that he's no more than a man who found the good stuff and then rode the crest of his discovery, for a while, until the jig was up. "
"Consider that, sixteen years after Rick Dutrow Jr. started his first horse, he had but two career wins."
Soon after, he rocketed to 28% and never had a complete year below 22% winners again."



Roughly 20 starters over 16 years with no horses at all for 9 years in the middle and the other 7 years he had one 4,500 dollar claimer at a time off and on.



4. "But I really resent these sorts of campaigns on behalf of rich and powerful people. "


Pretty strong and I know it's still early but the leader in the clubhouse for me is:


5. " Dutrow is, in fact, aristocracy."

While this is pure fiction it sounds really decisive. Great job misleading everybody that does not know otherwise. Unfortunately, I do.

If your father was one of the most successful in your field, you are, in fact, aristocracy in the sense that you are going to have a lot of powerful friends who try to protect you.

[AskinHaskin]

If your father was one of the most successful in your field, you are, in fact, aristocracy in the sense that you are going to have a lot of powerful friends who try to protect you.


Uh, OK, when was the last time Dutrow Sr. even won at a 20% clip for an entire year???


LOL at “one of the best...”

[Ruffian1]

If your father was one of the most successful in your field, you are, in fact, aristocracy in the sense that you are going to have a lot of powerful friends who try to protect you.

You and I know that you have no actual idea as to who Dick Dutrow Sr. ever was. You have no idea where he came from,( yeah I know, go goggle it), how he rose to prominence, who his friends were, who his adversaries were, his work ethic, how he lived his life, heck, you probably couldn't pick him out of a lineup without help. If you really think that he had powerful friends in NY that helped protect him and that he was privileged , I suggest you do some homework.

Everybody is more than entitled to their opinions. But what has me responding negatively to your posts is the inaccurate depth that you go to to portray someone that you do not know anything about. If you don't like Rick or his dad, just say it. But please don't paint a picture of a man, especially a man that has been deceased for almost 20 years, as anything but what and who he truly was. That's just not a cool thing to do.

[Ruffian1]

Uh, OK, when was the last time Dutrow Sr. even won at a 20% clip for an entire year???


LOL at “one of the best...”


Uh, OK,


He won over 3600 races in his career.

He was the worlds leading trainer in races won in 1975.

He won multiple training titles for races won.

His last year he was alive which was 1999 we won at a 33% win rate but passed away in February.

His last full year training he won at about 14%. During that year he was battling pancreatic cancer which included multiple procedures. Please excuse his lack of focus.

The year prior to that, his last year healthy, he won at at over 20%.

Although passing away 19 years ago, Dick Dutrow Sr. still ranks # 17 all time in races won.

The trainers tree of former employees of Mr. Dutrow's that went on to train for themselves has collectively won at least 9,000 races and counting.

I guess a good "LOL" IS in order.

[FakeNameChanged]

Uh, OK,


He won over 3600 races in his career.

He was the worlds leading trainer in races won in 1975.

He won multiple training titles for races won.

His last year he was alive which was 1999 we won at a 33% win rate but passed away in February.

His last full year training he won at about 14%. During that year he was battling pancreatic cancer which included multiple procedures. Please excuse his lack of focus.

The year prior to that, his last year healthy, he won at at over 20%.

Although passing away 19 years ago, Dick Dutrow Sr. still ranks # 17 all time in races won.

The trainers tree of former employees of Mr. Dutrow's that went on to train for themselves has collectively won at least 9,000 races and counting.

I guess a good "LOL" IS in order.
I know class when I see it. Nice write up.

[Denny]

Reminder:

This thread is about Richard Dutrow Jr.and whether his sentence should be commuted to time served, over five years now.

Not his father who's been deceased for twenty years.

[AskinHaskin]

Uh, OK,


He won over 3600 races in his career.

He was the worlds leading trainer in races won in 1975.

He won multiple training titles for races won.

His last year he was alive which was 1999 we won at a 33% win rate but passed away in February.

His last full year training he won at about 14%. During that year he was battling pancreatic cancer which included multiple procedures. Please excuse his lack of focus.

The year prior to that, his last year healthy, he won at at over 20%.

Although passing away 19 years ago, Dick Dutrow Sr. still ranks # 17 all time in races won.

The trainers tree of former employees of Mr. Dutrow's that went on to train for themselves has collectively won at least 9,000 races and counting.

I guess a good "LOL" IS in order.




So Dutrow Sr. barely reached 20% for a full year once in what, the last 42 years ??

Just once did Dutrow Sr. even reach 16% successes for any full season after 1986.


Nothing about Dutrow Sr.'s career makes Dutrow Jr. an aristocrat.


Bode Baffert is far more an aristocrat based on his father than Dutrow Jr. will ever be.


And c'mon, Burt Sipp is even #35 on the all-time list, and he's a reputed animal abuser. Dutrow Sr. is no longer a moving target either.


Maybe Burt Sipp has some offspring who should step-up and accept their automatic inclusion as "aristocrats" of the breed.


Now stop kidding yourselves!

[Ruffian1]

So Dutrow Sr. barely reached 20% for a full year once in what, the last 42 years ??

Just once did Dutrow Sr. even reach 16% successes for any full season after 1986.


Nothing about Dutrow Sr.'s career makes Dutrow Jr. an aristocrat.


Bode Baffert is far more an aristocrat based on his father than Dutrow Jr. will ever be.


And c'mon, Burt Sipp is even #35 on the all-time list, and he's a reputed animal abuser. Dutrow Sr. is no longer a moving target either.


Maybe Burt Sipp has some offspring who should step-up and accept their automatic inclusion as "aristocrats" of the breed.


Now stop kidding yourselves!

Out of respect to this place and Denny who started the thread and requested for posters to stay on topic, I will ignore your classless and moronic response .

[dilanesp]

You and I know that you have no actual idea as to who Dick Dutrow Sr. ever was. You have no idea where he came from,( yeah I know, go goggle it), how he rose to prominence, who his friends were, who his adversaries were, his work ethic, how he lived his life, heck, you probably couldn't pick him out of a lineup without help. If you really think that he had powerful friends in NY that helped protect him and that he was privileged , I suggest you do some homework.

Everybody is more than entitled to their opinions. But what has me responding negatively to your posts is the inaccurate depth that you go to to portray someone that you do not know anything about. If you don't like Rick or his dad, just say it. But please don't paint a picture of a man, especially a man that has been deceased for almost 20 years, as anything but what and who he truly was. That's just not a cool thing to do.

We have a lot of Dick Dutrows in Hollywood, Ruffian. Self made men whose children are not. And when the children get into trouble, they have connections due to their parents' standing. The children are aristocrats even though the parents were not.

Also, I knew all about Dick Dutrow. He was a central character in Andy Beyer's early writings.

[Denny]

Thanks to all who contributed.

If there's nothing new or different to add, think we can put this one to rest.

Denny

[upthecreek]

I thought this was an interesting article
https://pastthewire.com/injustice-is-blind-deaf-and-dumb/

[PaceAdvantage]

When you look at the whole picture surrounding Dutrow, when you REALLY EXAMINE what he he was accused of, what the public perception of him is, and then what REALLY HAPPENED (and forget this latest story for a moment), it's a ****ing disgrace what they did to him.

With these latest allegations by Lewandowski, it's now a ****ing disaster. I wonder how much this latest story will be ignored.

[dilanesp]

I think 10 years for 3 drug violations is a light sentence. 2 drug violations is a lifetime ban in track and field.

But, of course, track and field actually wants to stop doping.

Part of the problem with this sport is we fall for sob stories from the humans who get suspended. Meanwhile, doped horses can't have their buddies write stories about them.

[clicknow]

I think 10 years for 3 drug violations is a light sentence.

Are you kidding? There wouldn't be enough trainers left in the sport then, even with the vastly shrinking race horse population.

My thought was never that Dutrow was innocent, it's more that he's been scapegoated when the same thing is happening all around. So yeah, time to end the hypocracy and time served is enough.

Maybe start giving some other trainers their 10 years, which they have certainly *earned* too.

[Tom]

I think 10 years for 3 drug violations is a light sentence. 2 drug violations is a lifetime ban in track and field.

But, of course, track and field actually wants to stop doping.

Part of the problem with this sport is we fall for sob stories from the humans who get suspended. Meanwhile, doped horses can't have their buddies write stories about them.

I'm with you, babe!

[Suff]

I lurk this site.

By John Pricci -
February 16, 2020

WHISTLEBLOWER: STATE ACTOR FRAMED TRAINER RICK DUTROW
https://www.horseraceinsider.com/kentucky-derby-winning-trainer-was-framed-by-new-york-state-actor/

[nijinski]

And here I thought the following claim was blown to smithereens on another recent thread about Dutrow:

• No horse trained by Dutrow suffered a fatal breakdown at a New York track, either racing or in training, for 11 consecutive years.

I'm pretty sure this isn't true...as are a lot of other people...but whatever.

I agree he should be reinstated.

You could be right but Dr Bramlege who early on testified for Dutrow was
impressed with his handling of his horses and their condition .
He mentioned the fact that Dutrow sought veterinary advice at the start of a problem with his his horses.
As I said years the suspension was way too long .

[classhandicapper]

I lurk this site.

By John Pricci -
February 16, 2020

WHISTLEBLOWER: STATE ACTOR FRAMED TRAINER RICK DUTROW
https://www.horseraceinsider.com/kentucky-derby-winning-trainer-was-framed-by-new-york-state-actor/

It sounds like this could get very messy.

Not to condone anything, but imo if he would have just shut his mouth and gone about his business quietly he probably would have been treated the same way as other outstanding horseman under similar clouds of suspicion.

[GMB@BP]

I dont know where this is going....I do know that his horses defied handicapping logic at times, his moves ups make Servis look like a amateur in comparison.

[classhandicapper]

I dont know where this is going....I do know that his horses defied handicapping logic at times, his moves ups make Servis look like a amateur in comparison.

I agree.

I had less of a problem with the horses he took that were brought back 4-6 weeks after the trainer change and returned to their best form. You can least argue that superior nutrition, dental care, vet care, small equipment changes, recognizing and addressing minor physical issues, a needed freshening, and superior training can bring a horse back to his top form.

It's the quick turnarounds to massive new tops that are more problematical.

[dilanesp]

I agree.

I had less of a problem with the horses he took that were brought back 4-6 weeks after the trainer change and returned to their best form. You can least argue that superior nutrition, dental care, vet care, small equipment changes, recognizing and addressing minor physical issues, a needed freshening, and superior training can bring a horse back to his top form.

It's the quick turnarounds to massive new tops that are more problematical.

Every once in awhile a trainer does "find the answer". My favorite example was Alysheba, who was something like 1 for 12 lifetime when Jack Van Berg discovered his entrapped epiglottis. After he got the surgery he immediately turned into the best 3 year old in America.

But I am basically suspicious of any trainer with a huge "first off claim" or "first with trainer" stat. Because most trainers do a decent job of the basics, so any trainer who immediately improves the form of a large percentage of the horses who are sent to his or her barn is probably engaged in some sort of foul play.

And remember, Dutrow was a repeat offender as well. We should be a lot more skeptical of process claims made by repeat offenders.

[classhandicapper]

Every once in awhile a trainer does "find the answer". My favorite example was Alysheba, who was something like 1 for 12 lifetime when Jack Van Berg discovered his entrapped epiglottis. After he got the surgery he immediately turned into the best 3 year old in America.

But I am basically suspicious of any trainer with a huge "first off claim" or "first with trainer" stat. Because most trainers do a decent job of the basics, so any trainer who immediately improves the form of a large percentage of the horses who are sent to his or her barn is probably engaged in some sort of foul play.

And remember, Dutrow was a repeat offender as well. We should be a lot more skeptical of process claims made by repeat offenders.

I agree with everything you said.

I was simply pointing out that like any other field, some guys are just much better at what they do than the competition and have greater resources to get the job done. So you can least put forward a defense that makes some sense in some cases. Quick turnarounds that move up 10 lengths, not so much. ;)

[cj]

I think most horseplayers have a hard time mustering up sympathy for a trainer because so many others get a tap on the wrist and that is it. Fair, of course not, but that is how it is.

[GMB@BP]

I think most horseplayers have a hard time mustering up sympathy for a trainer because so many others get a tap on the wrist and that is it. Fair, of course not, but that is how it is.

wasnt dutrow given a number of slap on the wrists before getting the beat down?

[cj]

wasnt dutrow given a number of slap on the wrists before getting the beat down?

He definitely had some shady moments.

[Afleet]

He should be well into his 2nd career by now

[Suff]

This is NY hatfield vs Mcoys. For those who haven't been to a NY racetrack. Still to this day there are signs: Bring Rick Back. & Let Rick Work.

They're lawn signs, just like the political ones. I saw them last year at saratoga. This was/is epic grudge match.

[classhandicapper]

They're lawn signs, just like the political ones. I saw them last year at saratoga. This was/is epic grudge match.

Yep.

The Dutrow and PETA signs battle for the best locations.

[rastajenk]

But I am basically suspicious of any trainer with a huge "first off claim" or "first with trainer" stat. Because most trainers do a decent job of the basics, so any trainer who immediately improves the form of a large percentage of the horses who are sent to his or her barn is probably engaged in some sort of foul play.Yeah, but would you pass on betting him if a known pattern was staring up at you from the Form?

[classhandicapper]

Yeah, but would you pass on betting him if a known pattern was staring up at you from the Form?

I had that debate on another forum years ago and got blasted for my view.

If you are a trainer, owner, jockey, agent, breeder etc... and are competing against a suspected cheater, you have every right to be very upset every time one their horses beats you.

If you are strictly a gambler, you may want to hold your nose because you love the sport and want the corruption eliminated, but the money is just as green if you identify something that the crowd hasn't picked up on yet. Personally, I think that's a lot tougher now than it used to be given all the databases and trainer stats available publicly now, but the point is the same.

[timp]

They all cheat been doing it for 100 years and will continue to do it just matter who gets caught who’s Doesn’t.wake up

[GMB@BP]

They all cheat been doing it for 100 years and will continue to do it just matter who gets caught who’s Doesn’t.wake up

agree, I think it makes it easier to accept. I had hoped for years that leadership would step up and clean up the issues that hurt the sport from moving forward, I gave up.

[Tom]

Leadership?
Leadership?

We don't need no steenking leadership!

[timp]

Also a horseman that has been through the inside politics of this sport they have ruined many a good men.

[dilanesp]

Also a horseman that has been through the inside politics of this sport they have ruined many a good men.

I highly doubt this.

Indeed, you can look at doping allegations in all of sports, and the number of people who were railroaded is a tiny number, a rounding error.

Not that there should be no due process at all- if someone wants to establish the test was inaccurate, that's a defense that should be available, but basically, almost everyone who ever has a positive test is completely guilty.

The analogue in the criminal justice system would be drunk driving. Other than a few cases where the breathalyzer was incorrectly calibrated or something, everyone who tests above the limit has obviously violated the law. The defenses are almost all complete BS.