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Denny
04-09-2018, 08:14 PM
According to TDN, John Velazquez has been fined $1500 for his ride on Vino Rosso in the Wood Memorial.

I think it's well deserved and could have been more.

Stewards fined him for careless riding and not maintaining a straight path.

I think it was intentional on his part, as it has become common practice in NY to "herd" and intimidate other horses and riders.

Kudos to Jerry Bailey for saying he thought JV deserved to be DQ'd. He said so on the national broadcast on NBCSN.

Somebody was paying attention and maybe the stewards finally decided to do something about this reckless behaviour.

It's a start. I hope.

GMB@BP
04-09-2018, 08:34 PM
worth it...to much money not to play a little rough

Denny
04-09-2018, 09:22 PM
It's more than "a little rough" when you consider someone's life could be at risk. Some day it's going to happen. What would you say then?

I know $1500 isn't much to a millionaire jockey that got 10% of the winners share in a million dollar race.

So let them do what they want. Right?

GMB@BP
04-09-2018, 10:50 PM
It's more than "a little rough" when you consider someone's life could be at risk. Some day it's going to happen. What would you say then?

I know $1500 isn't much to a millionaire jockey that got 10% of the winners share in a million dollar race.

So let them do what they want. Right?

I have always been in a foul is a foul camp, if that was the case then it would clean up a lot of the rough stuff.

JV is a clean rider, I dont think this was intentional. What I object to is the herding when I see horses go out 5 paths, I dont mind a little race riding but its a bit odd to see horses swerving all around.

The Ortiz brothers and Castallano, both in the stretch and out of the gate, have done a few things that definitely warrant DQs but it is what it is.

Denny
04-10-2018, 12:01 AM
Look at the head-on GMB.

Velazquez comes in quite a bit.

It's also more dangerous to force someone towards the rail, than to herd them outside.

It looked intentional to me. The stewards even said in the ruling that he failed to keep his mount straight.

Ask Alvarado what he thought about the way JV rode him in?

Totally agree with you on the other jocks you mentioned.

I think it's mostly a NY thing - and look who the head of the jockeys is - Velazquez himself!!!

NJ Stinks
04-10-2018, 01:30 AM
Kudos to Jerry Bailey for saying he thought JV deserved to be DQ'd. He said so on the national broadcast on NBCSN.



Jerry Bailey has a lot of nerve saying anything about anybody else when it comes to "drifting".

LoneF
04-10-2018, 02:29 AM
I know in the San Felipe when Mike Smith on McKenzie starting bumping Bolt in the stretch that if it would have been one of the old school riders like Cordero or Pincay on Bolt they would have planted Mike Smith right back into the rail instead of relying on the stewards to make things right.

Fager Fan
04-10-2018, 07:57 AM
Unbelievable. The jock is fined, yet they didn't disqualify the win.

Denny
04-10-2018, 09:45 AM
I know in the San Felipe when Mike Smith on McKenzie starting bumping Bolt in the stretch that if it would have been one of the old school riders like Cordero or Pincay on Bolt they would have planted Mike Smith right back into the rail instead of relying on the stewards to make things right.

Cordero would have STARTED the bumping. Not the reverse.

Remember when he tried to put Genuine Risk in the Pimlico parking lot in the Preakness with Codex.

biggestal99
04-10-2018, 10:03 AM
Unbelievable. The jock is fined, yet they didn't disqualify the win.

They do that all the time in the UK, why punish the bettors for a jockey mistake.

Allan

pandy
04-10-2018, 10:08 AM
Unbelievable. The jock is fined, yet they didn't disqualify the win.


Yeah, what they're saying is that he should have been dq'd, so they blew the call.

Personally, I'd like to see the rules followed, and the rules are NOT followed. Riders are supposed to try to keep their horses on a straight path, yet they purposely drift out all the time trying to intimidate another horse and it's called "race riding," when in fact, according to the rules, it's interference.

johnhannibalsmith
04-10-2018, 10:45 AM
Yeah, what they're saying is that he should have been dq'd, so they blew the call.

...

Or that there was a punishable offense, but it did not affect the order of the finish of the race in question - which is the standard for a DQ for better or worse usually.

Denny
04-10-2018, 10:47 AM
Unbelievable. The jock is fined, yet they didn't disqualify the win.

Andy Serling was just on Steve Byk's show saying he thought at the time that VR would be disqualified for a clear-cut foul.

Said he was "surprised" that he wasn't DQ'd.

Also said what i firmly believe - that there's no way of knowing if Vino Rosso would have won anyway if not for the foul. Enticed was coming back at him when Velazquez did what he did.

So, to me we need some consistency.

Either always let the first finisher stay up, no matter what, and only fine and suspend riders for fouls.
OR
A foul is a foul, and you come down. No more playing God by stewards and ruling based on what they think would have happened.

What do you think?.

Denny
04-10-2018, 11:14 AM
They do that all the time in the UK, why punish the bettors for a jockey mistake.

Allan

Not sure what your saying there Allan.

Aren't the losing bettors being punished when fouls are allowed and their horse is the one that got fouled?

burnsy
04-10-2018, 12:43 PM
Andy Serling was just on Steve Byk's show saying he thought at the time that VR would be disqualified for a clear-cut foul.

Said he was "surprised" that he wasn't DQ'd.

Also said what i firmly believe - that there's no way of knowing if Vino Rosso would have won anyway if not for the foul. Enticed was coming back at him when Velazquez did what he did.

So, to me we need some consistency.

Either always let the first finisher stay up, no matter what, and only fine and suspend riders for fouls.
OR
A foul is a foul, and you come down. No more playing God by stewards and ruling based on what they think would have happened.

What do you think?.

The problem has always been consistency. That's why NY attracts all the complaints they get. Certain guys get lead way, anyone that denies it is a homer. I've been following this circuit for almost 40 years......its always been this way. If you are an out of town "guy/girl" , one bump and you'll pay. I've had many a long shot like that at Saratoga that get taken down for far less than what the "regulars" get away with. Herding gets a blind eye many times....and you know damn well they saw it because there's an inquiry that takes 10 minutes to resolve. One person can breathe on a competitor with their mount and get taken down........people like Johnny V and the rest that were mentioned (in this thread) use herding almost routinely and they don't get dick. $1500, are you kidding me? They'll take that every time if you don't take them down. Hell, even if they throw in a few days, its still worth winning a race like that. The only way you stop something like this is taking the horse down......1500 or winning the Wood Memorial........what a joke!

biggestal99
04-10-2018, 01:00 PM
Not sure what your saying there Allan.

Aren't the losing bettors being punished when fouls are allowed and their horse is the one that got fouled?

I like the UK rule. a horse is only taken down when the foul indisputably effects the finishing positions.

all jocks know the rules there.

and when there is one the jock is punished right away.

none of this appeals stuff.

The stewards rule with an iron fist.

Allan

Andy Asaro
04-10-2018, 01:27 PM
The natural result should always stand unless they're sure to a 90% or more certainty that it cost a placing. The less discretion the Stewards have the better IMO

Denny
04-10-2018, 01:38 PM
The natural result should always stand unless they're sure to a 90% or more certainty that it cost a placing. The less discretion the Stewards have the better IMO

Agree.

Denny
04-10-2018, 01:43 PM
I like the UK rule. a horse is only taken down when the foul indisputably effects the finishing positions.

all jocks know the rules there.

and when there is one the jock is punished right away.

none of this appeals stuff.

The stewards rule with an iron fist.

Allan

Not a bad way of doing things. Do they interview jockeys after a foul claim and let the jocks talk there way out of it. Like they do here?

Always thought it was unfair to some jocks that have a poor knowledge of English and can't express themselves well enough.

I even heard Rich Migliore once say he looked forward to talking to the stewards because he could make his case better than others.
Doesn't seem right to me.

Look at the tape from as many angles as you need, and make a decision stewards.

Denny
04-10-2018, 01:50 PM
The problem has always been consistency. That's why NY attracts all the complaints they get. Certain guys get lead way, anyone that denies it is a homer. I've been following this circuit for almost 40 years......its always been this way. If you are an out of town "guy/girl" , one bump and you'll pay. I've had many a long shot like that at Saratoga that get taken down for far less than what the "regulars" get away with. Herding gets a blind eye many times....and you know damn well they saw it because there's an inquiry that takes 10 minutes to resolve. One person can breathe on a competitor with their mount and get taken down........people like Johnny V and the rest that were mentioned (in this thread) use herding almost routinely and they don't get dick. $1500, are you kidding me? They'll take that every time if you don't take them down. Hell, even if they throw in a few days, its still worth winning a race like that. The only way you stop something like this is taking the horse down......1500 or winning the Wood Memorial........what a joke!

Gotta agree with this too, having spent my entire horse-playing life in NY. Twenty plus at the track every week, till moving Upstate almost 20 years now.

Could we trace it all back to Cordero and his "buddies"? He was at his top during my earlier years going to the tack and I saw him get away with practically murder a few times.

Maybe there's a connection there to what's going on today???

Did his disciples learn their lessons well?

Get away with whatever you can. If not, just pay the little fine.

Immortal6
04-10-2018, 04:50 PM
The natural result should always stand unless they're sure to a 90% or more certainty that it cost a placing. The less discretion the Stewards have the better IMO

I agree with this 100%. In the case of JV's ride of Vino Rosso in this race it comes down to: did his contact with Enticed change the order of finish? I watched the race with my dad and 3 of his friends, all of them are in their 50's and 60's and have been involved in racing in one way or another and have been watching and handicapping races for over 30 years. Out of the 5 of us at the table only 1 thought that Vino Rosso should have been DQ'd to 2nd place because of the contact, but all of us agreed that Vino was drawing away and would have beaten Enticed even without his jostling in the stretch.

For me I equate it to football. Defensive players make questionable hits all the time, some times these hits are on purpose and others times on accident. Film is reviewed and often times players are fined for this misconduct. More egregious hits are met with ejection from the game.

Denny
04-10-2018, 06:31 PM
[QUOTE=Immortal6;2301047] Out of the 5 of us at the table only 1 thought that Vino Rosso should have been DQ'd to 2nd place because of the contact, but all of us agreed that Vino was drawing away and would have beaten Enticed even without his jostling in the stretch.

But, was he drawing away before the contact - or after the contact?

Did he draw away because he fouled and intimidated the opponent?

How can you tell how much the contact stopped Enticed from competing and he packed it in at that point?

Velazquez got off EASY - whether there was reason for a DQ or not.

Cordero and him probably had a nice celebration after.

Who knows? Maybe Repole and Viola even took care of the fine? The difference between first and second money was $400,000.

GMB@BP
04-10-2018, 06:51 PM
The natural result should always stand unless they're sure to a 90% or more certainty that it cost a placing. The less discretion the Stewards have the better IMO

Pval, Cordero, Ortiz, Pedroza and Nakatani strongly approve of your opinion!!!

burnsy
04-10-2018, 06:58 PM
Gotta agree with this too, having spent my entire horse-playing life in NY. Twenty plus at the track every week, till moving Upstate almost 20 years now.

Could we trace it all back to Cordero and his "buddies"? He was at his top during my earlier years going to the tack and I saw him get away with practically murder a few times.

Maybe there's a connection there to what's going on today???

Did his disciples learn their lessons well?

Get away with whatever you can. If not, just pay the little fine.

The only connection is tradition and high power sports. I actually think it was rougher in those days. So, there has been some positive changes. There's an interview with Angel Cordero and Jorge Velasquez where they talk about a famous race, it may even be the one someone mentioned in this thread, I'm not sure. But the story went that Angel almost sent Jorge over the rail......and they are friends. Jorge just smiles and said no hard feelings, if given the chance, i would of done the same. That's just how the world was then in almost all sports. Today, some of that has been clamped down......but when there's that kind of money and that much pressure to win, limits will be stretched and that's where officiating is supposed to come in. Safety should trump aggressiveness and rein in the offenders. You can't tell me that some of these Stewards don't feel pressure if they are about to take one of the high profile jockeys down, in a huge race no less. I've noticed, especially up here in Saratoga that if your money is on an out of town outfit with a jockey that comes with those connections.......you'll get a harder ruling then the regulars. I don't care what others say, its true.

The other thing is back then the Stewards were even worse and less qualified then they are now. I was there the day they took the wrong horse down. There was an outrage and some people tried to sue. It has gotten better but if one reviews every tape of inquiry races......there's no rhyme or reason to what's called a foul and what's left standing. Then when they do something like this, its like admitting you botched it.

Robert Fischer
04-10-2018, 10:06 PM
My impression was that Vino Rossi beat Enticed, and that Velazquez/Vino Rossi also fouled Alvarado/Enticed.

I wouldn't use the phrase 'proved best', because it was a fortuitous trip for Vino Rossi.
Alvarado was riding both Enticed and Restoring Hope out of the gate. Had Alvarado focused on his own horse, and let the race unfold a bit more, he would have had a winning position for a strong first run that Vino Rossi would have been unable to catch.

Vino Rossi was 'subject to' the performance of the 8(Baffert morning-glory who projected to be sitting 2nd and possibly loaded for bear), as well as Enticed's trip.

Velazquez out-classed them all once again(in the actual trip tactics, not the stretch run), in a trip that was roughly similar to the trip he gave Audible.


Break patiently (don't try to 'outsmart' the 1st turn from the wide post
get into rhythm
watch how the race unfolds


He got the goofy stuff from Alvarado, and also the dud from the Baffert Hope, and was able to capitalize.

It was actually closer than it should have been.

I agree with the call and the fine on this one.

I agree with others here that consistency is non existent. We don't know the rules. Lot of great stances/suggestions by you guys, but I don't know the letter of the rule. Is it different in NY vs CA? Who knows...

If the rules aren't being interpreted in favor of connections, they are certainly influenced by the situation and the emotions and opinions of the stewards. Stewards are human.

Redboard
04-10-2018, 10:23 PM
To me it looked like Vino Rosso came in on his own, JV didn't intentionally force him. Isn't there an unwritten rule among stewards that if horses naturally race like that, no foul required? JV then whipped him with the left inside arm, which caused the horse to drift out away from Enticed. If JV used the other arm then, yes, definitely a foul.

whisperlunch
04-11-2018, 12:11 AM
Maybe we should start a go fund me page so Johnny V can pay this fine. Unless some people on twitter beat me too it

cj
04-11-2018, 12:30 AM
Maybe we should start a go fund me page so Johnny V can pay this fine. Unless some people on twitter beat me too it


:lol::lol::lol:

Well played.

Denny
04-11-2018, 12:49 PM
Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.

Many good contributions and well expressed opinions.

Whether we agree or not on whether there should have been a DQ or not. Whether Velazquez should have been fined more, or even given days.

We pretty much all agree that consistency is needed in steward rulings.

I'm personally for as few DQ's as possible, BUT, for much stiffer fines and penalties for infractions. I think the two can go together. Let the winner be the winner and don't cost the bettor unless it's 100% conclusive that the foul changed the outcome.
At the same time, severely penalize jockeys for careless, reckless, and dangerous riding - whether it cost someone a placing or not. Stiffer fines and suspensions might stop some of these tactics being employed in the future,

Denny

JohnGalt1
04-11-2018, 01:48 PM
I even heard Rich Migliore once say he looked forward to talking to the stewards because he could make his case better than others.
Doesn't seem right to me.

Jerry Bailey said the same thing during the objection replays.

Denny
04-11-2018, 02:15 PM
John Galt,
Thanks for adding that. I missed it.

An American-born, or anyone speaking well, has a big advantage over young men that barely know the language.

Should there even be interviews done by the stewards? What do they expect the jockey to say? Yeah boss, it was all my fault, take me down.

Seriously. Why can't the video evidence speak for itself?

JohnGalt1
04-12-2018, 08:24 PM
Seriously. Why can't the video evidence speak for itself?

I agree. It works in football and baseball.

I'd like a steward to explain how often the interviews do affect their decisions?

Could Horse Player Monthly interview a steward with this and other questions?