Bring Dutrow Back

[jay68802]

Is this the right thing to do?

http://http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/romans-starts-petition-to-reinstate-dutrow/

[Brogan]

I'll try to boil this down to a simple answer:

NOPE

[jay68802]

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/romans-starts-petition-to-reinstate-dutrow/

Sorry about first link

[jay68802]

I will start by saying that I liked the guy. As stated in the article, he was a character. He said what was on his mind. When I read this article, I keep thinking how what was written, shows how out of touch the racing industry is with its customers. "Everybody was using steroids, because they were legal". Sounds a lot like Stephanie Beatie saying that she was cheating because "everyone else was". The article also says that the use of steroids has been banned. Masochistic's case say's other wise, steroids are still being used, but under the pretext of increasing a horses appetite. The fact still remains that he was caught using a illegal substance, and was punished. Some of the rules are made to protect the integrity in racing, and it seems that these rules are the ones some in this industry spend a lot of time trying to get around.

Now Romans's has started this petition for reinstatement. Wants to get 1500 signatures. Would that be enough to sway the New York Racing and Wagering board? I doubt it, but who knows.

What if horse players submitted a petition with 1500 signatures asking for lower take out? Or a petition asking for the timing of races to be started when the gates open? Would it be enough to have these changes made? I think that we could submit 15,000 signatures and horse racing would ignore it.

Dutrow cheated, and did so knowingly. IMO, he felt he was above the rules, and if caught, would not face a punishment that was severe. He rolled the dice and lost.

[lamboguy]

I will start by saying that I liked the guy. As stated in the article, he was a character. He said what was on his mind. When I read this article, I keep thinking how what was written, shows how out of touch the racing industry is with its customers. "Everybody was using steroids, because they were legal". Sounds a lot like Stephanie Beatie saying that she was cheating because "everyone else was". The article also says that the use of steroids has been banned. Masochistic's case say's other wise, steroids are still being used, but under the pretext of increasing a horses appetite. The fact still remains that he was caught using a illegal substance, and was punished. Some of the rules are made to protect the integrity in racing, and it seems that these rules are the ones some in this industry spend a lot of time trying to get around.

Now Romans's has started this petition for reinstatement. Wants to get 1500 signatures. Would that be enough to sway the New York Racing and Wagering board? I doubt it, but who knows.

What if horse players submitted a petition with 1500 signatures asking for lower take out? Or a petition asking for the timing of races to be started when the gates open? Would it be enough to have these changes made? I think that we could submit 15,000 signatures and horse racing would ignore it.

Dutrow cheated, and did so knowingly. IMO, he felt he was above the rules, and if caught, would not face a punishment that was severe. He rolled the dice and lost.steroids are being administered with the use of clen beuterol

[Tom]

Let me put it this way.
Once you take your trash out to the curb, do bring it back and put it back in the fridge?

He cheated, he knew it, screw him, and the horse he milk shaked,.

And if Romans wants him back, we better be checking HIS horses a little more closely.

[PointGiven]

I'll try to boil this down to a simple answer:

NOPE

This. Nothing more to add.

[Robert Fischer]

I don't know enough about the details to have an opinion.


Some infer that Dutrow was banned more for his big mouth during the Big Brown run, regarding the public's naivete of performance enhancement and steroid use, than for the subsequent or collective infraction(s).

Even if that is the case, I still don't know enough about this to have an opinion.

It's an interesting subject. I liked Dutrow. I liked handicapping and betting him.

[Afleet]

He needs to pay me back all the money he cheated me out of first. I used to lose betting against his horses who would 'improve' 20+ on their speed figures

[thaskalos]

Let me put it this way.
Once you take your trash out to the curb, do bring it back and put it back in the fridge?

He cheated, he knew it, screw him, and the horse he milk shaked,.

And if Romans wants him back, we better be checking HIS horses a little more closely.

I echo this sentiment through and through. IMO...Romans should be watched closely from now on. :ThmbUp:

[JustRalph]

I echo this sentiment through and through. IMO...Romans should be watched closely from now on. :ThmbUp:

What the hell is up with Romans? Wasn’t he running horses against Dutrow?

[RunForTheRoses]

Is he really really gone or is he Michele Nevin and Rudy Rod?

[JustRalph]

Is he really really gone or is he Michele Nevin and Rudy Rod?

I hope he’s Rudy, the shoes are much more comfortable

[JimG]

No Babe.

[JustRalph]

No Babe.

Nice! :pound:

[Rico8812]

Thought this was an interesting Romans quote. Kinda makes me wonder...

The thing is, he’s just so good at what he does. He never had catastrophic injury in 11 years. Anyone that hasn’t had a catastrophic injury over that long a period of time can’t be cheating. If you give horses medicines to make them go faster than they’re capable of, they’re going to blow apart. They’re going to drop over dead. They can’t handle that.

[Thomas Roulston]

Dutrow cheated to win. Pete Rose bet on his own team to lose.

If you believe that Dutrow is not as bad as Rose, then maybe he should be reinstated.

[BIG49010]

Dale Roman's brother Jerry received some notoriety in 1988 when one of his horses won the first race on the Kentucky Derby card — paying $71 to win — after being entered under an erroneous name, Briarwood instead of Blairwood. The horse therefore showed no races in the Daily Racing Form, though he had raced twice in another state for another trainer. A two-day hearing disclosed a sequence of events that contributed to the error going undetected and the horse running. As the trainer, Romans got a 10-month suspension.

[affirmedny]

Dale Roman's brother Jerry received some notoriety in 1988 when one of his horses won the first race on the Kentucky Derby card — paying $71 to win — after being entered under an erroneous name, Briarwood instead of Blairwood. The horse therefore showed no races in the Daily Racing Form, though he had raced twice in another state for another trainer. A two-day hearing disclosed a sequence of events that contributed to the error going undetected and the horse running. As the trainer, Romans got a 10-month suspension.

Father, not brother..

[Andy Asaro]

Dutrow got 10 years because they hated his personality. Most would have gotten a year for the same offenses IMO.

[Tom]

But they would have ALL deserved 10 years.
Dutrow should be banned for life.

Cheating cannot be tolerated - ever, by anyone.

It's really a simple thing to not get banned - don't freaking cheat. Those that do deserve no respect or mercy.

Piggle Wiggle needs bag boys...perhaps Druggy could handle a job with less temptation.

[Fager Fan]

Thought this was an interesting Romans quote. Kinda makes me wonder...

The thing is, he’s just so good at what he does. He never had catastrophic injury in 11 years. Anyone that hasn’t had a catastrophic injury over that long a period of time can’t be cheating. If you give horses medicines to make them go faster than they’re capable of, they’re going to blow apart. They’re going to drop over dead. They can’t handle that.

Where'd the figure come from that he never had a catastrophic breakdown in 11 years? I'd wager that isn't true. Even the most careful and best horsemen probably have a rate of 1 catastrophic breakdown ever 3-5 years (including mornings).

[SG4]

Where'd the figure come from that he never had a catastrophic breakdown in 11 years? I'd wager that isn't true. Even the most careful and best horsemen probably have a rate of 1 catastrophic breakdown ever 3-5 years (including mornings).

Well here's one off the top of my head:

http://www.espn.com/horse/news/2001/0605/1209762.html

[PaceAdvantage]

Where'd the figure come from that he never had a catastrophic breakdown in 11 years? I'd wager that isn't true. Even the most careful and best horsemen probably have a rate of 1 catastrophic breakdown ever 3-5 years (including mornings).I'll bet it's true. Not many horsemen around who took better care of their horses than Dutrow.

Other brand name trainers that have horses drop dead on them under suspicious circumstances are still plying their trade trouble-free.

He got a very raw deal...bottom line.

[Spalding No!]

Where'd the figure come from that he never had a catastrophic breakdown in 11 years? I'd wager that isn't true. Even the most careful and best horsemen probably have a rate of 1 catastrophic breakdown ever 3-5 years (including mornings).

Between July 2009 and June 2011, Dutrow had 3 fatalities. One racing and two training.

In that time span he also had one horse that was euthanized after an apparent heart attack.

[Fager Fan]

Between July 2009 and June 2011, Dutrow had 3 fatalities. One racing and two training.

In that time span he also had one horse that was euthanized after an apparent heart attack.

Thanks SG and Spaulding. I've heard over and over about how Dutrow took such great care of his horses, as if he was a rarity in that regard and it should be a mitigating factor. So it's not true after all.

Whether one thinks he got a raw deal or not, maybe his supposed great care can stop being used as an argument in favor of Dutrow. My opinion isn't that he got a raw deal, but that Baffert and others should've seen similar punishments.

[Ruffian1]

The truth is that he did take great care of his horses. Unfortunately, taking great care of your horses does not exempt anyone from catastrophic breakdowns or heart attacks or whatever.

It's a shame that people just say things that sound real smart or catchy until those darn facts start to get in the way. Not only some of those that defend him, but some of those that want him banned for life as well.

It seems like a waste of time for me to opine about this. Most won't want to hear it anyway. Sometimes honesty and facts are no fun. So I will just say this:

He had a talent like few have ever had as a trainer. This was evident before he saddled his first starter.
But he also had total reckless disregard for preserving that talent and appreciating what he had.

Call him what you will but know that when you call him a trainer that cheated with drugs and needles, you are nowhere close to the truth. You are simply wrong.

[Fager Fan]

The truth is that he did take great care of his horses. Unfortunately, taking great care of your horses does not exempt anyone from catastrophic breakdowns or heart attacks or whatever.

It's a shame that people just say things that sound real smart or catchy until those darn facts start to get in the way. Not only some of those that defend him, but some of those that want him banned for life as well.

It seems like a waste of time for me to opine about this. Most won't want to hear it anyway. Sometimes honesty and facts are no fun. So I will just say this:

He had a talent like few have ever had as a trainer. This was evident before he saddled his first starter.
But he also had total reckless disregard for preserving that talent and appreciating what he had.

Call him what you will but know that when you call him a trainer that cheated with drugs and needles, you are nowhere close to the truth. You are simply wrong.

That's quite a smug post, and I have no idea why. Say he took such great care if you want, but I guarantee that catastrophic breakdown rate proves different because I know the stats of some others, and it's not 1+ a year. I'm not saying he was terrible, but this often repeated idea that he took such great care, as if it was at a rare level to make it a mitigating factor, isn't true.

[Andy Asaro]

What amazes me is a guy like Baffert has 7 or 8 die of heart related issues within 18 months, is found to have been giving them Thyro-L for no good reason and gets the whole California establishment, mainly the CHRB to cover up for him. And then he is able to win a Triple Crown. Dutrow would have been sent to a black site, tortured and killed (a little over the top) under the same conditions because of his personality and not being too big to fail.

There are sham investigations that go both ways. Sham to cover up and sham to convict in Dutrows case. 10 years? No way.

[Ruffian1]

That's quite a smug post, and I have no idea why. Say he took such great care if you want, but I guarantee that catastrophic breakdown rate proves different because I know the stats of some others, and it's not 1+ a year. I'm not saying he was terrible, but this often repeated idea that he took such great care, as if it was at a rare level to make it a mitigating factor, isn't true.

Smug?

I think you need to reread it.

I was mocking the guy who said what he did about great care, like that is a rarity, as well as those that make stories up to strengthen their negative agenda.

Taking great care of your horses does not cure catastrophic breakdowns.

People can have any opinion they want , but it should to be backed up with facts, not some nonsense that tries to justify it.

[Ruffian1]

What amazes me is a guy like Baffert has 7 or 8 die of heart related issues within 18 months, is found to have been giving them Thyro-L for no good reason and gets the whole California establishment, mainly the CHRB to cover up for him. And then he is able to win a Triple Crown. Dutrow would have been sent to a black site, tortured and killed (a little over the top) under the same conditions because of his personality and not being too big to fail.

There are sham investigations that go both ways. Sham to cover up and sham to convict in Dutrows case. 10 years? No way.

Well said Andy.

[Andy Asaro]

What amazes me is a guy like Baffert has 7 or 8 die of heart related issues within 18 months, is found to have been giving them Thyro-L for no good reason and gets the whole California establishment, mainly the CHRB to cover up for him. And then he is able to win a Triple Crown. Dutrow would have been sent to a black site, tortured and killed (a little over the top) under the same conditions because of his personality and not being too big to fail.

There are sham investigations that go both ways. Sham to cover up and sham to convict in Dutrows case. 10 years? No way.

Just wanted to add a question to the post.

If the starting offensive line for the Super Bowl Champs all died of heart related issues in an 18 month period and had been all given the same supplement for no apparent reason what would happen?

[PaceAdvantage]

Thanks SG and Spaulding. I've heard over and over about how Dutrow took such great care of his horses, as if he was a rarity in that regard and it should be a mitigating factor. So it's not true after all.What's not true? That he didn't take EXCELLENT care of his horses?

Oh yes he did.

[PaceAdvantage]

That's quite a smug post, and I have no idea why. Say he took such great care if you want, but I guarantee that catastrophic breakdown rate proves different because I know the stats of some others, and it's not 1+ a year. I'm not saying he was terrible, but this often repeated idea that he took such great care, as if it was at a rare level to make it a mitigating factor, isn't true.Bullshit. You have trainers out there at the top of anyone's list year after year, having horses die on them for reasons that are VERY suspicious...I'm talking the top trainers on both coasts...you guys know exactly who I'm talking about...and these guys are winning Eclipse awards and getting praised by most (well, one is at least...the other has kind of fallen out of favor with most knowledgeable folks)...

But kick Dutrow out for 10 years because he had all these violations, most of them due to poor record keeping and management, not illegal drugs...oh, and because he had a big mouth and talked about steroids during the triple crown...which I guess kind of ****ed it up for a lot of other trainers...just remember, the steroids he was talking about were perfectly LEGAL back when he was talking about them.

It's just so ****ing ridiculous that he was kicked out for 10 years, while every other yahoo with way more serious MULTIPLE violations still have their license.

And anyone who says otherwise is clueless.

[biggestal99]

We need to rid the sport of juicers.

Dutrow was one of them.

More should be shown the door.

Training horses for a living is a priveledge not a right.

Allan (whoa member)

[Denny]

Didn't read all the comments because i think many of them are BS and i had to say something.

Many of you guys are way off base and out of your league on this matter.

The guy was railroaded and given way too stiff of a penalty for what he did.

A commission guy was looking to make for a name for himself with the harshest penalty possible.

Dutrow has done 5 years for what many other trainers have gotten hardly anything for doing.

NOT A SINGLE HORSE Dutrow trained died in a race - in all those years.

Got this info from a great series of articles written a couple years ago by John Pricci of HRI.

[Baffert KILLED horses and got a slap on the wrist, as someone pointed out].

Roman's is RIGHT on this and some of you guys need to learn the facts before judging.

[PaceAdvantage]

We need to rid the sport of juicers.

Dutrow was one of them.Clueless. Unless by juicer, you mean using legal medications.

[Spalding No!]

Call him what you will but know that when you call him a trainer that cheated with drugs and needles, you are nowhere close to the truth. You are simply wrong.
From 2003 until the time of his 10-year ban, Dutrow had been cited, fined, and/or suspended for positive tests for:

(1) mepivicaine - a local anesthetic
(2) clenbuterol - a bronchodilator with the potential to improve performance
(3) butorphanol - an opioid used to control moderate to severe pain

In addition, during a barn search at Aqueduct, investigators found multiple loaded syringes containing xylazine. Xylazine is a sedative that also imparts pain relief and muscle relaxation.

It is expressly forbidden in the rules of NY racing for anyone other licensed veterinarians to possess equipment that may be used for hypodermic injection, never mind pre-loaded equipment as in this case.

In addition, Dutrow admitted to using anabolic steroids on his horses on a monthly basis. That's not to say it was illegal at the time, but it does call into question the claim that his success was based on some sort of "talent" to train horses.

[PaceAdvantage]

So you're saying Dutrow was nothing but a chemist. With not even above-average talent at training and caring for racehorses.

Oy vey.

[Ruffian1]

We need to rid the sport of juicers.

Dutrow was one of them.

More should be shown the door.

Training horses for a living is a priveledge not a right.

Allan (whoa member)

Juicer ?

Please tell me about the illegal "juice" he used.

[Ruffian1]

From 2003 until the time of his 10-year ban, Dutrow had been cited, fined, and/or suspended for positive tests for:

(1) mepivicaine - a local anesthetic
(2) clenbuterol - a bronchodilator with the potential to improve performance
(3) butorphanol - an opioid used to control moderate to severe pain

In addition, during a barn search at Aqueduct, investigators found multiple loaded syringes containing xylazine. Xylazine is a sedative that also imparts pain relief and muscle relaxation.

It is expressly forbidden in the rules of NY racing for anyone other licensed veterinarians to possess equipment that may be used for hypodermic injection, never mind pre-loaded equipment as in this case.

In addition, Dutrow admitted to using anabolic steroids on his horses on a monthly basis. That's not to say it was illegal at the time, but it does call into question the claim that his success was based on some sort of "talent" to train horses.

I think it is well known that the syringes were a plant job. I certainly do.

I stand behind everything I said.

And good job mocking the word "talent."

So important to do these things when trying to have a civil discussion.

[Spalding No!]

So you're saying Dutrow was nothing but a chemist. With not even above-average talent at training and caring for racehorses.
I didn't come close to remotely saying that.

Another poster said it was "simply wrong" and "nowhere close to the truth" that Dutrow cheated with "drugs and needles".

My post completely refuted that (i.e, the poster's statement was Bullshit).

I didn't make any assertion with respect to the care of his horses.

[PaceAdvantage]

I didn't come close to remotely saying that.

Another poster said it was "simply wrong" and "nowhere close to the truth" that Dutrow cheated with "drugs and needles".

My post completely refuted that (i.e, the poster's statement was Bullshit).

I didn't make any assertion with respect to the care of his horses.Most people of sound mind would interpret:

"but it does call into question the claim that his success was based on some sort of "talent" to train horses."

exactly as I interpreted it...so yes, you came more than remotely close to saying that.

[jay68802]

Dutrow's drug violations are well documented. I did a quick look and found 4 trainers that have been suspended for the use of the same three drugs listed above. All received a 30 day or less suspension. All the trainers have multiple violations.

He took care of his horses, should not really be a issue. I think most trainers take pretty good care of the horses under their care.

A trainer can have a severe injury in his first race or could not have one for 500 races. The injuries are going to happen, when is any ones guess.

If Romans would be able to help in getting his suspension reduced, IMO, OK.
If it is not reduced, IMO, OK.

He has been gone for five years, that is a healthy punishment.

[Spalding No!]

Most people of sound mind would interpret:

"but it does call into question the claim that his success was based on some sort of "talent" to train horses."

exactly as I interpreted it...so yes, you came more than remotely close to saying that.
I suppose so...if by "sound" you mean "histrionic" or "given to hyperbole".

That aside, what do you make of those opoids, nerve blocking agents, etc.?

[Fager Fan]

What's not true? That he didn't take EXCELLENT care of his horses?

Oh yes he did.

What the hell are you basing that on? That it's become the mantra of the "Free Dutrow!" crowd?

I'd like to see decades of stats, but those provided here don't back up the claim of EXCELLENT care. Contrary to Ruffian's beliefs, the most careful horsemen have a 1 in every 3-5 year on-track death, and maybe 1 in a lifelong career die of a heart attack (if ever).

I'm with you on Baffert and think he's the one who should've been kicked out of the sport for 10 years (and some others deserve similar), but I'm just wanting to stop the silliness that Dutrow was extraordinary in his care of horses and it's some mitigating factor. At best, it looks like he took average care.

[PaceAdvantage]

I suppose so...if by "sound" you mean "histrionic" or "given to hyperbole".

That aside, what do you make of those opoids, nerve blocking agents, etc.?Not quite.

"calls into question THE CLAIM that his success was based on SOME SORT OF "TALENT" to train horses"

Read it a few more times then come back and tell me I'm the one using histrionics.

First off, by using the word CLAIM, you're immediately calling his talent into question. Then you specifically call his talent into question by implying his success was based more on his "rampant" use of pharmaceuticals rather than "some sort of talent."

The use of "some sort" was a nice touch as well.

Bonus points to you.

[PaceAdvantage]

What the hell are you basing that on? That it's become the mantra of the "Free Dutrow!" crowd?

I'd like to see decades of stats, but those provided here don't back up the claim of EXCELLENT care. Contrary to Ruffian's beliefs, the most careful horsemen have a 1 in every 3-5 year on-track death, and maybe 1 in a lifelong career die of a heart attack (if ever).

I'm with you on Baffert and think he's the one who should've been kicked out of the sport for 10 years (and some others deserve similar), but I'm just wanting to stop the silliness that Dutrow was extraordinary in his care of horses and it's some mitigating factor. At best, it looks like he took average care.From our other encounters on here, you're not the best example of someone with a firm grip on multiple topics, so I bow out of this with you.

[Fager Fan]

From our other encounters on here, you're not the best example of someone with a firm grip on multiple topics, so I bow out of this with you.

So in other words, you've got nothing. Do you even know how to put a halter on a horse? Ever ridden one in your life? How many top 35 trainers have you employed for your horses? So maybe you should stick to your expertise which is limited to installing internet forum software once, as best I can see.

[thaskalos]

How many times was Dutrow fined or suspended in this game? Doesn't there come a time when it becomes obvious that a heavier sentence must be handed down when the "regular punishment" no longer works as much of a deterrent?

[PaceAdvantage]

So in other words, you've got nothing. Do you even know how to put a halter on a horse? Ever ridden one in your life? How many top 35 trainers have you employed for your horses? So maybe you should stick to your expertise which is limited to installing internet forum software once, as best I can see.Yes.

Yes.

None.

GFY

[castaway01]

How many times was Dutrow fined or suspended in this game? Doesn't there come a time when it becomes obvious that a heavier sentence must be handed down when the "regular punishment" no longer works as much of a deterrent?

I agree. I can see where Dutrow getting a lifetime ban is unfair compared to the other trainers with similar lists of offenses who haven't been banned. However, to me that means racing should have cracked down on others and given them similar bans, not that we should lift the punishment for one of the few times racing actually enforced the rules.

[PaceAdvantage]

I agree. I can see where Dutrow getting a lifetime ban is unfair compared to the other trainers with similar lists of offenses who haven't been banned. However, to me that means racing should have cracked down on others and given them similar bans, not that we should lift the punishment for one of the few times racing actually enforced the rules.Forget similar. What about trainers with far worse "lists?"

I went and looked over Dutrow's "list."

Most of the violations are for late administrative paperwork or errors or other non-medication non-horse-health violations.

As for meds, they were detailed above. One that wasn't mentioned was for a Lasix violation.

And many of the legal med violations were for very minor overages above the legal limit.

One thing you can accuse him of accurately was that he was sloppy and lazy in a couple of necessary departments, which led to a lot of these violations.

[Ruffian1]

I didn't come close to remotely saying that.

Another poster said it was "simply wrong" and "nowhere close to the truth" that Dutrow cheated with "drugs and needles".

My post completely refuted that (i.e, the poster's statement was Bullshit).

I didn't make any assertion with respect to the care of his horses.


Your post completely refuted nothing.

Where did your post prove he ever used any needles and please don't tell me the story about Barney Fife finding them in the drawer of his desk in the office.

Talk about Bullshit !

As for the drug positives, I think PA has spoken to that so I won't repeat it.

[Fager Fan]

Yes.

Yes.

None.

GFY

Put CJ in quite a pickle, didn't ya? That's a demerit right there.

Maybe you should stick to the topic instead of causing it to derail by taking a personal shot at someone.

[PaceAdvantage]

Put CJ in quite a pickle, didn't ya? That's a demerit right there.

Maybe you should stick to the topic instead of causing it to derail by taking a personal shot at someone.Personal shot?

Asking if I ever sniffed actual horse shit wasn't personal?

My last line stands.

[Ruffian1]

What the hell are you basing that on? That it's become the mantra of the "Free Dutrow!" crowd?

I'd like to see decades of stats, but those provided here don't back up the claim of EXCELLENT care. Contrary to Ruffian's beliefs, the most careful horsemen have a 1 in every 3-5 year on-track death, and maybe 1 in a lifelong career die of a heart attack (if ever).

I'm with you on Baffert and think he's the one who should've been kicked out of the sport for 10 years (and some others deserve similar), but I'm just wanting to stop the silliness that Dutrow was extraordinary in his care of horses and it's some mitigating factor. At best, it looks like he took average care.

It was never my mantra.

I laughed at it in my original post. Did you reread it?

Let's face it, nobody in the business can actually call this what it is and not be punished for what they say.

I think plenty of people understand that.

[Fager Fan]

Your post completely refuted nothing.

Where did your post prove he ever used any needles and please don't tell me the story about Barney Fife finding them in the drawer of his desk in the office.

Talk about Bullshit !

As for the drug positives, I think PA has spoken to that so I won't repeat it.

They were found. Do you have any proof they were planted?

I know that the plant defense was also the one used for Biancone. I don't think that we can go with the plant defense, do you? Not without any evidence?

As for Dutrow, I don't know why you all don't think administrative problems aren't problems. Didn't he even have horses scratched because he didn't get their papers on file? Having the papers on file is what every trainer has to make sure of every day, and if they all took it with the lack of regard that Dutrow did then it'd be quite a mess every race day.

I'm good with anyone who wants to say 10 years was too long, but I don't see all those who make light of his long list of being the "problem child" of trainers at the track. Wasn't he a grown up who could've at least hired someone to take care of all the paperwork if he had no intention of playing by the rules of life, which unfortunately does include paperwork?

And I don't see "great care" as a mitigating factor either. All SHOULD take great care, so you don't get a gold star for doing what you're supposed to do in that regard.

We've got people arguing over this from the standpoints of defending or not defending Dutrow, when I think we all agree that the penalties of racing aren't applied equally and fairly.

[Fager Fan]

Personal shot?

Asking if I ever sniffed actual horse shit wasn't personal?

My last line stands.

You need reminding who took the first shot?

From our other encounters on here, you're not the best example of someone with a firm grip on multiple topics, so I bow out of this with you.


So back at ya. GFY. It's probably the only way you get any.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's probably the only way you get any.Wrong as always.

[biggestal99]

Clueless. Unless by juicer, you mean using legal medications.

Mepivacaine was a legal medication when Dutrow administered it to a horse.

Who knew?

I am hardly clueless but then again I don’t have an agenda to let a known drugger of horses back into the game.

As dutrow himself has said.

“Half of the suspensions were deserved”

Allan

[Ruffian1]

They were found. Do you have any proof they were planted?

I know that the plant defense was also the one used for Biancone. I don't think that we can go with the plant defense, do you? Not without any evidence?

As for Dutrow, I don't know why you all don't think administrative problems aren't problems. Didn't he even have horses scratched because he didn't get their papers on file? Having the papers on file is what every trainer has to make sure of every day, and if they all took it with the lack of regard that Dutrow did then it'd be quite a mess every race day.

I'm good with anyone who wants to say 10 years was too long, but I don't see all those who make light of his long list of being the "problem child" of trainers at the track. Wasn't he a grown up who could've at least hired someone to take care of all the paperwork if he had no intention of playing by the rules of life, which unfortunately does include paperwork?

And I don't see "great care" as a mitigating factor either. All SHOULD take great care, so you don't get a gold star for doing what you're supposed to do in that regard.

We've got people arguing over this from the standpoints of defending or not defending Dutrow, when I think we all agree that the penalties of racing aren't applied equally and fairly.

I don't know about any plant defense for anybody. I do know all about Rickie. What they found, where they found it, who they said was the possessor of it, the drug that it was and the typical tactics used by backstretch security that I witnessed over decades of time allow me to draw an easy conclusion. There are several other factors that I wish I could talk about but I just cannot discuss them.

All of what I just said is so completely NOT Rick that it screams plant. That's all I can really say. Maybe the fact that I do not recall ever coming here to post anything but what I have seen, how things are done, and truly tried to help wherever I could might carry a drop of weight. But if not, that's OK too.

I never made light of his long list of being a problem child, I said he had total reckless disregard .

I mocked the took great care card played for a reason to end his suspension. But that said, and it doesn't mean a thing in regards to the suspension, it just so happens that he DID take great care of his horses. But what the hell, so did I as well as many others including any trainer that came up under his dad.

We do agree that the penalties of racing were not applied equally and fairly. And because of that, people for him want to talk about great care and people against want to say he was a juicer, cheated etc.

One side is lame and the other couldn't be further from the truth IMO.

Unfortunately, very few if any can approach the people responsible for the length of the suspension and have any kind of discussion. They wanted him gone and found an avenue for that to happen.

[Denny]

I think most fair-minded individuals would agree that the penalty exceeded the alleged crimes.

Five years is enough.

Let the man have a chance at redemption.

Far more knowledgeable people than me, familiar with the details of the case feel this way too - and they have nothing to gain by his reinstatement.

There were highly questionable motives involved in his being punished so severely.

Let the man have his life back. That's the last thing I've got to say on this.

[burnsy]

This is a subject that has caused problems in other sports too. The lack of uniformity doling out penalties and punishment. Without a Code of Conduct and lacking set rulings........it goes two ways, you are really good and have the right "friends"........... or you are really good and you are made the whipping boy. Usually people that run their mouths or get caught on tape are the latter. This applies to more than just horse racing. If one is bad mojo for PR....the politics of it will bury them. That's life, in the big leagues.......

[PaceAdvantage]

Mepivacaine was a legal medication when Dutrow administered it to a horse.

Who knew?

I am hardly clueless but then again I don’t have an agenda to let a known drugger of horses back into the game.

As dutrow himself has said.

“Half of the suspensions were deserved”

AllanSome people must be confused that I have said somewhere that Dutrow is an angel and the perfect trainer, to be put on a pedestal, with "how-to-be-like-Rick" books written for future generations of racehorse trainers.

Not.

The simple point is YES he deserves to be back in racing...unless you want to give all the other trainers with offenses similar or worse than Dutrow, 10-year vacations as well.

[PaceAdvantage]

Mepivacaine was a legal medication when Dutrow administered it to a horse.

Who knew?

I am hardly clueless but then again I don’t have an agenda to let a known drugger of horses back into the game.

As dutrow himself has said.

“Half of the suspensions were deserved”

AllanI guess Bill Mott is a juicer too...under your rules. He's a known drugger as well. Got suspended for it at least. He's a juicer.

[Fager Fan]

I don't know about any plant defense for anybody. I do know all about Rickie. What they found, where they found it, who they said was the possessor of it, the drug that it was and the typical tactics used by backstretch security that I witnessed over decades of time allow me to draw an easy conclusion. There are several other factors that I wish I could talk about but I just cannot discuss them.

All of what I just said is so completely NOT Rick that it screams plant. That's all I can really say. Maybe the fact that I do not recall ever coming here to post anything but what I have seen, how things are done, and truly tried to help wherever I could might carry a drop of weight. But if not, that's OK too.

I never made light of his long list of being a problem child, I said he had total reckless disregard .

I mocked the took great care card played for a reason to end his suspension. But that said, and it doesn't mean a thing in regards to the suspension, it just so happens that he DID take great care of his horses. But what the hell, so did I as well as many others including any trainer that came up under his dad.

We do agree that the penalties of racing were not applied equally and fairly. And because of that, people for him want to talk about great care and people against want to say he was a juicer, cheated etc.

One side is lame and the other couldn't be further from the truth IMO.

Unfortunately, very few if any can approach the people responsible for the length of the suspension and have any kind of discussion. They wanted him gone and found an avenue for that to happen.

Good point about where it's possible to defend or argue against without using either extreme - juicer, or extraordinary caretaker - neither of which I believe is true.

[thaskalos]

IMO...reinstating Dutrow should be WAY down the game's to-do list.

[Tom]

The simple point is YES he deserves to be back in racing...unless you want to give all the other trainers with offenses similar or worse than Dutrow, 10-year vacations as well.

In a word, YES.
Cheaters do not belong in the game.

Why worry about giving trainers a second chance - are you going to give the people who lost their money a refund?

When trainers cheat, CUSTOMERS lose. :ThmbDown:

[PaceAdvantage]

Better wipe the game clean of way bigger cheats then Dutrow then, or it's all useless talk.

I don't even consider Dutrow a "cheat."

[Spalding No!]

How many times was Dutrow fined or suspended in this game? Doesn't there come a time when it becomes obvious that a heavier sentence must be handed down when the "regular punishment" no longer works as much of a deterrent?
In a 5-year stretch between 2003 and 2008, Dutrow was suspended 3 times for a period of time totaling over 100 days.

By the end of 2010, he had 2 more infractions pending that would have led to a 30 day suspension and a 60 day suspension, respectively. These potential penalties were stayed because an appeal was submitted by Dutrow, and ultimately the state pursued a license revocation penalty.

Ironically, despite the protests in this thread, the Board was lenient with Dutrow in that the Hearing Officer's recommendation called for "permanent license revocation". The Board reduced the period of ineligibility to 10 years to provide for the possibility that Dutrow may "rehabilitate himself and deserve reconsideration" for reapplication.

[Afleet]

Yes.

Yes.

None.

GFY

:lol:

[cj]

Just because all criminals don't get caught doesn't mean I want to let off the ones that do. I think the penalty was too harsh compared to what others are given, but I really don't care to be honest. The "xxx is worse" defense doesn't fly with me.

[Hambletonian]

Can anyone here explain while trainers who repeatedly act in a way to defraud bettors and other owners should not be banned for life?

If only they could be sued by bettors and the other owners, the whole situation would resolve itself. The fact is that cheating in racing persists because the penalties are ridiculously light in terms of the number of folks who end up defrauded.

You rob a liquor store for 20K and get caught you go to prison. You defraud thousands of bettors and steal a 20K purse and you may get a 2 week vacation.

I could not give less of a crud about Dutrow. He is the sole owner of all of his troubles.

[Afleet]

Can anyone here explain while trainers who repeatedly act in a way to defraud bettors and other owners should not be banned for life?

If only they could be sued by bettors and the other owners, the whole situation would resolve itself. The fact is that cheating in racing persists because the penalties are ridiculously light in terms of the number of folks who end up defrauded.

You rob a liquor store for 20K and get caught you go to prison. You defraud thousands of bettors and steal a 20K purse and you may get a 2 week vacation.

I could not give less of a crud about Dutrow. He is the sole owner of all of his troubles.

Agree. Here are some facts about Dutrow. I haven't fact checked every incident.

A person like this should be reinstated?:

In the 1980s, he was banned from Maryland tracks for a year then five years from New York for various marijuana offenses (possession, failed drug tests, getting caught with a "concealed apparatus" to provide a fake urine sample). Years later, the mother of his daughter was murdered in a drug-related break-in. By 1998, he was sleeping on a cot next to saddles and bridles and other equipment in a tack room of Barn 1 at Aqueduct, a couple of cheap horses in stalls just outside the door and nothing but a microwave, fridge, and television to keep him company.

He had come back and more by 2001, with the help of wealthy owners like Wall Street trader Sandy Goldfarb, leading New York in wins and, a few years later, winning the Breeders' Cup Classic with Eclipse Award winner Saint Liam. He wagered outrageous sums on his own horses and bragged about it, such as the $160,000 plunge he took on Saint Liam that day, pocketing more than $385,000.

There were drug positives every year since 2000, some minor and others more serious, like a 60-day suspension for giving his horses painkillers. While serving the ban he remained in contact with his barn, which won him another suspension and a $25,000 fine. In 2005, he conspired to hide the workouts of a horse named Wild Desert leading up to a major victory in Canada.

Workout times are published in racing programs; because of their importance to gamblers, they're supposed to be accurate. Dutrow ostensibly wanted to conceal from the public how well Wild Desert was training in the hopes of finding longer odds for his team on the day of the race. It was an elaborate fraud in which three of his assistants—Rudy Rodriguez, Juan Rodriguez, and Nevin—were fined at least $1,000 for their roles. They reported a false workout for Wild Desert at Monmouth Park, in New Jersey, when in fact the horse had never left Aqueduct. On another occasion, Wild Desert breezed before the official clocker had arrived. New Jersey officials would say that Dutrow and Rudy Rodriguez tried to mislead them in their investigation, and Dutrow was suspended 14 days and fined $5,000, while Rodriguez got a seven-day suspension and a $1,000 fine. The fines paled in comparison to the money the owners won on Wild Desert.

The attention Big Brown had brought to the sport quickly turned negative. Congress held a hearing on racing's problems; Dutrow was a no-show. Months later, it came out that one of his horses had tested positive in a stakes race at Churchill Downs the day before Big Brown won the Derby. He received a 15-day suspension.

Eventually, Dutrow's dark clouds had to break. In February 2011, New York suspended him for 90 days after one of his horses had tested positive for a banned painkiller and three unmarked hypodermic needles containing muscle relaxant had been discovered in a search of his office. Ed Martin, the president of the Association of Racing Commissioners International, wrote a letter to the New York State and Racing Wagering Board urging it go further and ban Dutrow.

https://deadspin.com/how-big-browns-people-nearly-pulled-off-horse-racings-504679834

[PaceAdvantage]

There were drug positives every year since 2000This part is not true.

[Afleet]

This part is not true.

the Wild Desert episode is flat out fraud-that should be prison time

[PaceAdvantage]

Just saying, you said he had a med violation every year since 2000, and that's simply not true.

[Afleet]

Just saying, you said he had a med violation every year since 2000, and that's simply not true.

I didn't say it-it was excerpts from the article I linked

[PaceAdvantage]

ThoroughbredRulings.com seems to disagree with the article.

[Afleet]

ThoroughbredRulings.com seems to disagree with the article.

I can't remember the Wild Desert episode. Was that proven he was providing incorrect workout times?

[Afleet]

THE DATABASE MAY NOT CONTAIN ALL RULINGS ISSUED FOR A SPECIFIC TRAINER. The Database only contains rulings related to Thoroughbred horses for the time period beginning January 1, 2005 to the present. Rulings are posted to the Database as they are obtained from or provided by Commissions or the Association of Racing Commissioners International. The Jockey Club makes no covenants, representations or warranties that the information available in the Database is complete, up to date or accurate.

www.thoroughbredrulings.com/

website disclaimer

[HalvOnHorseracing]

If you want the full story on Dutrow, I'd recommend this article by Jonathan Stettin https://www.pastthewire.com/rick-dutrow/ and this article by John Pricci http://www.horseraceinsider.com/HRI-Feature/05282015-rick-dutrow-case-revisited/ Both are highly respected horseracing writers.

You can believe what you want, as long you know the facts and the details. Otherwise your ability to knowledgeably comment is hardly worthy of anyone's attention.

[Spalding No!]

I can't remember the Wild Desert episode. Was that proven he was providing incorrect workout times?
During a hearing where he was appealing a denial of licensure by the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission, Dutrow himself admitted he falsified the identity of Wild Desert so that the horse would be allowed entry into the Aqueduct barn area. He admitted to falsifying a workout at Monmouth for the horse. He also admitted to running the horse under Bobby Frankel's name but still billed the owners for his share of the purse.

All this while serving a 60-day suspension. He also lied during the original investigation into the Wild Desert episode conducted in part by Monmouth officials.

[PaceAdvantage]

THE DATABASE MAY NOT CONTAIN ALL RULINGS ISSUED FOR A SPECIFIC TRAINER. The Database only contains rulings related to Thoroughbred horses for the time period beginning January 1, 2005 to the present. Rulings are posted to the Database as they are obtained from or provided by Commissions or the Association of Racing Commissioners International. The Jockey Club makes no covenants, representations or warranties that the information available in the Database is complete, up to date or accurate.

www.thoroughbredrulings.com/

website disclaimerI know...I was only looking at 2005 and beyond.

It would be nice to know the source of the article's author. I guess he is more accurate than TBrulings. Whatever.

Most of you are very much missing the point anyway.

[PaceAdvantage]

They should extend his suspension to lifetime.

But they should let the pretty boys who continue to have horses drop dead on them under odd and obvious circumstance continue to run the table.

Just like they continue to let these CRW teams cut odds in half after the gate opens.

Great game.

[PaceAdvantage]

Glad this menace Dutrow is still out of the game.

It would tar the impeccable image of racing since they booted him out.

[thaskalos]

During a hearing where he was appealing a denial of licensure by the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission, Dutrow himself admitted he falsified the identity of Wild Desert so that the horse would be allowed entry into the Aqueduct barn area. He admitted to falsifying a workout at Monmouth for the horse. He also admitted to running the horse under Bobby Frankel's name but still billed the owners for his share of the purse.

All this while serving a 60-day suspension. He also lied during the original investigation into the Wild Desert episode conducted in part by Monmouth officials.

What a guy! :ThmbUp:

[Spalding No!]

If you want the full story on Dutrow, I'd recommend this article by Jonathan Stettin https://www.pastthewire.com/rick-dutrow/ and this article by John Pricci http://www.horseraceinsider.com/HRI-Feature/05282015-rick-dutrow-case-revisited/ Both are highly respected horseracing writers.

You can believe what you want, as long you know the facts and the details. Otherwise your ability to knowledgeably comment is hardly worthy of anyone's attention.
The first article is incorrect when it states that Dutrow "went 11 years in New York without a fatal breakdown either in the morning or during a race".

Big Stack, who was dropping from a maiden claiming tag of $65K down to $16K in one fell swoop, was pulled up and vanned off in a race on July 1, 2009 at Belmont Park. The horse was subsequently euthanized.

Graded stakes winner Break Water Edison broke down in a workout and was euthanized on May 7, 2010.

Graded stakes winner Stradivinsky was injured in training and subsequently euthanized in June 2011.

Those are only incidents in New York. As someone pointed out, Lake Pontchartrain had to be euthanized after a race at Suffolk in 2001.

In addition, high profile horses like the 9yo Arson Squad and the 6yo Thunder Blitz broke down in workouts.

[thaskalos]

The first article is incorrect when it states that Dutrow "went 11 years in New York without a fatal breakdown either in the morning or during a race".

Big Stack, who was dropping from a maiden claiming tag of $65K down to $16K in one fell swoop, was pulled up and vanned off in a race on July 1, 2009 at Belmont Park. The horse was subsequently euthanized.

Graded stakes winner Break Water Edison broke down in a workout and was euthanized on May 7, 2010.

Graded stakes winner Stradivinsky was injured in training and subsequently euthanized in June 2011.

Those are only incidents in New York. As someone pointed out, Lake Pontchartrain had to be euthanized after a race at Suffolk in 2001.

In addition, high profile horses like the 9yo Arson Squad and the 6yo Thunder Blitz broke down in workouts.

The second article makes the same claim as well...at the very end.

[Spalding No!]

The second article makes the same claim as well...at the very end.
Thanks. I didn't make it that far. Seems like that fantasy is well entrenched at this point if a few years later Dale Romans is repeating it.

The info is readily at hand:

http://breakdown.gaming.ny.gov/

[HalvOnHorseracing]

The first article is incorrect when it states that Dutrow "went 11 years in New York without a fatal breakdown either in the morning or during a race".

Big Stack, who was dropping from a maiden claiming tag of $65K down to $16K in one fell swoop, was pulled up and vanned off in a race on July 1, 2009 at Belmont Park. The horse was subsequently euthanized.

Graded stakes winner Break Water Edison broke down in a workout and was euthanized on May 7, 2010.

Graded stakes winner Stradivinsky was injured in training and subsequently euthanized in June 2011.

Those are only incidents in New York. As someone pointed out, Lake Pontchartrain had to be euthanized after a race at Suffolk in 2001.

In addition, high profile horses like the 9yo Arson Squad and the 6yo Thunder Blitz broke down in workouts.

If I had the energy I'd try to figure out which 11 years the articles were referencing.

[Spalding No!]

If I had the energy I'd try to figure out which 11 years the articles were referencing.
Can't do it without some serious Doctor Who time bending moves.

Dutrow was not a full time trainer until 1998, which doesn't leave any room for an 11-year stretch free and clear of breakdowns.

On the other hand, if you start with 1979, the year he took out his license, you might have a shot. Of course, in the 11 years between 1979 and 1990, he won exactly 1 race...

[Tom]

Bizzaro World!

Racing can't time races, can't get the distances right, breaking the rules is not cheating, and the odds can change after the photo is taken.

And as long as everyone cheat, we can accept it.

OK, bring Drugtow back and give ME the 10 years.

[cj]

ThoroughbredRulings.com seems to disagree with the article.

I wouldn't want to risk any money on those being all that accurate personally.

[cj]

During a hearing where he was appealing a denial of licensure by the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission, Dutrow himself admitted he falsified the identity of Wild Desert so that the horse would be allowed entry into the Aqueduct barn area. He admitted to falsifying a workout at Monmouth for the horse. He also admitted to running the horse under Bobby Frankel's name but still billed the owners for his share of the purse.

All this while serving a 60-day suspension. He also lied during the original investigation into the Wild Desert episode conducted in part by Monmouth officials.

Yeah, that is a guy we need back in the sport. SMH.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yeah, that is a guy we need back in the sport. SMH.You need to keep the current state of the "sport" in perspective.

Given the current state, I think letting Dutrow back in would be an improvement.

[cj]

You need to keep the current state of the "sport" in perspective.

Given the current state, I think letting Dutrow back in would be an improvement.

I totally get your point. There are some bad dudes out there. But you have to catch them. For whatever reason they aren't dumb enough to get caught like Dutrow. I don't see why not being able to catch them means he should be allowed back. Sorry, just can't muster up any sympathy for the guy. The Queen's Plate incident was really bad.

[biggestal99]

In a word, YES.
Cheaters do not belong in the game.

Why worry about giving trainers a second chance - are you going to give the people who lost their money a refund?

When trainers cheat, CUSTOMERS lose. :ThmbDown:

It’s like jockeys when they caught with a battery.

Once they find they can’t make the living they did outside of racing they beg to come back.

The people who lost money betting against a machine horse might dispute them coming back.

Allan

[Tom]

No one who cheated should ever be allowed back until they reimburse the pools money they stole from the customers.

Why do we give cheaters a second chance but not the cheated?

It is a real simple penalty to avoid - don't cheat.

Frankly, using a battery should mean a jail term.
Dittos drugging a horse.

These creeps are stealing $$$.
No matter how nice they treat their horseys.

[Fager Fan]

No one who cheated should ever be allowed back until they reimburse the pools money they stole from the customers.

Why do we give cheaters a second chance but not the cheated?

It is a real simple penalty to avoid - don't cheat.

Frankly, using a battery should mean a jail term.
Dittos drugging a horse.

These creeps are stealing $$$.
No matter how nice they treat their horseys.

I'm not against cheaters having to reimburse those who held winning (but losing) tickets. I've often said that if someone could find a way of accomplishing this (class action suit?), that this above almost anything else would solve the problem.

I'd qualify what exactly is "cheating" though. I wouldn't want to see this penalty for a tiny overage of Bute or Lasix, for example. Definitely would for ANY Class 1 drug in a horse at any level. There should be some line between the two.

[Ruffian1]

I'm not against cheaters having to reimburse those who held winning (but losing) tickets. I've often said that if someone could find a way of accomplishing this (class action suit?), that this above almost anything else would solve the problem.

I'd qualify what exactly is "cheating" though. I wouldn't want to see this penalty for a tiny overage of Bute or Lasix, for example. Definitely would for ANY Class 1 drug in a horse at any level. There should be some line between the two.

That's the tough part isn't it. I get the customer being worn out with all this crap but there are extenuating circumstances with darn near everything.
Gotta be careful but just like murder there are varying degrees of it.

There are certain drugs as well as actions that should get the life penalty. But in order to do this there will need to be locks on every barn and security in every barn 24 seven. That will never happen due to cost if management has to pay a penny.
If trainers do, many owners of lesser quality horses will not be able to stay in.
You can see that it's no easy fix .
That said, it was rampant drug cheating that had a big part of me leaving .

It does wear you down .It sure wore me down.

[Niko]

I liked Dutrow because he told it like it was, basically admitted that trainers would do anything to win once they got a horse..... as my daughter says so to me so often....duhh.

What I find interesting is that people want to clean up the sport but they want to bring Dutrow back? I'd like to get some more insight into the reasoning behind that

[Tom]

Kind of a mystery, isn't it? :rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

I liked Dutrow because he told it like it was, basically admitted that trainers would do anything to win once they got a horseWhen the hell did that occur?

[PaceAdvantage]

Kind of a mystery, isn't it? :rolleyes:Not really...not when one is able to see clearly what has been allowed to go on ever since Dutrow got the big boot.

It's a ****ing joke...hypocritical at its core.

Patently unfair and ridiculous in the face of what has gone on BEFORE and SINCE his ouster.

[cj]

Not really...not when one is able to see clearly what has been allowed to go on ever since Dutrow got the big boot.

It's a ****ing joke...hypocritical at its core.

Patently unfair and ridiculous in the face of what has gone on BEFORE and SINCE his ouster.

I'd counter by saying I don't see much of the stuff I think you are talking about going on in NYRA racing, which is where Dutrow got in trouble.

I know, I know, people think Persuad was dirty this past weekend. I hope NYRA is looking into it. Overall I think they do better than the rest of the tracks.

[Ruffian1]

I liked Dutrow because he told it like it was, basically admitted that trainers would do anything to win once they got a horse..... as my daughter says so to me so often....duhh.

What I find interesting is that people want to clean up the sport but they want to bring Dutrow back? I'd like to get some more insight into the reasoning behind that

The preconceived notion that all trainers or horsemen are alike is pathetic and ignorant. In today's world, stereotyping is frowned upon when it comes to almost anything. Seems as though trainers and horsemen fall into the almost anything category.

Rick nor any other trainer speaks for me. Anyone that tries to can kiss my rear end. I always have and always will speak for myself.

I was asked within my first week here to call patrons of the track, customers and not bettors or gamblers. Seems as though that was offensive to some. So I try very hard to respect that wish.
Shame it's not a two way street.

[biggestal99]

Not really...not when one is able to see clearly what has been allowed to go on ever since Dutrow got the big boot.

It's a ****ing joke...hypocritical at its core.

Patently unfair and ridiculous in the face of what has gone on BEFORE and SINCE his ouster.

Fairness in racing, rarely if at all ever happens.

look at the takeout rates. If things were fair, everyone would be on the same takeout rate.

look at DQs, if things were fair, one standard would be used for all races, and we all know that doesnt happen.

Dutrow gets tossed for multiple suspensions yet Asmussen is headed to the hall of fame.

Allan

[biggestal99]

Clueless. Unless by juicer, you mean using legal medications.

No, pure 100% cheating juice. SGF-1000.

Just toss the lot of the juicers.

Allan

[PaceAdvantage]

No, pure 100% cheating juice. SGF-1000.

Just toss the lot of the juicers.

AllanYeah? Dutrow was using SGF-1000?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHC1230OpOg

[biggestal99]

Yeah? Dutrow was using SGF-1000?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHC1230OpOg


If not that then other things that are illegal.


I am with Tom (racing makes strangebedfellows)


Toss the juicers.


Allan

[cj]

I'd counter by saying I don't see much of the stuff I think you are talking about going on in NYRA racing, which is where Dutrow got in trouble.

I know, I know, people think Persuad was dirty this past weekend. I hope NYRA is looking into it. Overall I think they do better than the rest of the tracks.

There was a time Jason Servis stopped running in New York, or at least very, very rarely. Then he came back. Now we know why.

[BIG49010]

We need to come up with a new name for some of these trainers that are vet dependent or barn managers.



Years ago at Sportsman's Park they would put the assistant's name in the program, this gave you a clue to who was actually doing the work for several trainers that had previously worked as a mutual clerk, car sales man, door manager at a strip club before they received their trainer's license!

[airford1]

Remember, WASH your HANDS.

[Tom]

10 years seems kind of light today.
So much for letting this guy go early - 0 benefit to the game to do so. In fact, Bad news for the game to do so.

[cj]

People do have short memories...

https://twitter.com/DougieSal/status/1237220038102433792

[tophatmert]

People do have short memories...

https://twitter.com/DougieSal/status/1237220038102433792

When the fans response to these indictments is "bring Dutrow back" I can see why a lot of racing entities don't seem to be that interested in keeping the fans. What made you sick will not make you better.

[Appy]

If you're gonna clean the barn you don't shovel the crap back in.

[Tom]

Better to harm one lone person than tens of thousands of racing customers. Bub by, babby.

[cj]

Personally I have no idea if Dutrow was juicing horses back then or not. But he certainly had the reputation among bettors and he was bet like a move-up guy with new horses. I don't get the current lovefest for his return. Is this the guy people really want to hitch their wagon to as some wronged party that needs justice?

[deelo]

'Dutrow said he would be in favor if veterinarians were barred from the grounds, and said he welcomed a national set of medication rules. In typical Dutrow fashion, though, he bashed many of New York's leading trainers over the years, basically accusing them of cheating.

"How does Oscar Barrera go from winning no races for 30 years and then he becomes the best trainer that's ever trained horses in two years, then they stop him and he goes 0 for 140?'' Dutrow said. "The same thing with Gasper Moschera - where's he at? How did he get to be the man in New York by laying carpet, then they stop him and he gets out of the game. Peter Ferriola, Juan Serey. You look at this jerk down there [Gary] Contessa - how does he set records? How does he do it? C'mon, man, if everything is the same playing field, we're going to do as good if not better than anybody."'

^That's from 2008 so...was he framed for calling everyone cheaters all the time?

or did he decide to level the playing field himself...The Lance Armstrong defense if you will.

[dilanesp]

'Dutrow said he would be in favor if veterinarians were barred from the grounds, and said he welcomed a national set of medication rules. In typical Dutrow fashion, though, he bashed many of New York's leading trainers over the years, basically accusing them of cheating.

"How does Oscar Barrera go from winning no races for 30 years and then he becomes the best trainer that's ever trained horses in two years, then they stop him and he goes 0 for 140?'' Dutrow said. "The same thing with Gasper Moschera - where's he at? How did he get to be the man in New York by laying carpet, then they stop him and he gets out of the game. Peter Ferriola, Juan Serey. You look at this jerk down there [Gary] Contessa - how does he set records? How does he do it? C'mon, man, if everything is the same playing field, we're going to do as good if not better than anybody."'

^That's from 2008 so...was he framed for calling everyone cheaters all the time?

or did he decide to level the playing field himself...The Lance Armstrong defense if you will.

In track and field, there are numerous examples of the loudest people in calling out cheaters turning out to test positive themselves later. It's about as common as moralistic evangelical preachers being caught engaging in sexual misconduct.

The point being, lots of people proclaim themselves clean in these situations. Doesn't mean they are.

[ronsmac]

'Dutrow said he would be in favor if veterinarians were barred from the grounds, and said he welcomed a national set of medication rules. In typical Dutrow fashion, though, he bashed many of New York's leading trainers over the years, basically accusing them of cheating.

"How does Oscar Barrera go from winning no races for 30 years and then he becomes the best trainer that's ever trained horses in two years, then they stop him and he goes 0 for 140?'' Dutrow said. "The same thing with Gasper Moschera - where's he at? How did he get to be the man in New York by laying carpet, then they stop him and he gets out of the game. Peter Ferriola, Juan Serey. You look at this jerk down there [Gary] Contessa - how does he set records? How does he do it? C'mon, man, if everything is the same playing field, we're going to do as good if not better than anybody."'

^That's from 2008 so...was he framed for calling everyone cheaters all the time?

or did he decide to level the playing field himself...The Lance Armstrong defense if you will.Oscar did some amazing things in 1983 and 1984, but it would shock most to see what his winning percentage was in his best years , compared to todays super trainers.

[cj]

Oscar did some amazing things in 1983 and 1984, but it would shock most to see what his winning percentage was in his best years , compared to todays super trainers.

Don't ever remember him being even a 20% guy.

[PaceAdvantage]

“When discussing Mr. Dutrow’s case during my time as the State Steward,” Lewandowski wrote in a letter to the NYSGC, “Mr. Braulio Baeza Jr., the NYRA Steward at the time… told me on numerous occasions that evidence against Mr. Dutrow was planted…"

I guess everybody, including DrugS, is cool with that. I'm not.

[cj]

“When discussing Mr. Dutrow’s case during my time as the State Steward,” Lewandowski wrote in a letter to the NYSGC, “Mr. Braulio Baeza Jr., the NYRA Steward at the time… told me on numerous occasions that evidence against Mr. Dutrow was planted…"

I guess everybody, including DrugS, is cool with that. I'm not.

Hasn't Lewandowski said he didn't say that already? None of us will ever know the real story, but I stick by he isn't exactly the guy I'd be clammering for justice for either.

[deelo]

Hasn't Lewandowski said he didn't say that already? None of us will ever know the real story, but I stick by he isn't exactly the guy I'd be clammering for justice for either.

Lewandowski said his replacement told him evidence was planted and Baeza (the replacement) was the one who said no conversation like that ever took place.

[Suff]

Dutrow's name not on the newest PED indictment, but it might as well be. No chance he gets back now.

[PaceAdvantage]

Hasn't Lewandowski said he didn't say that already?Well, if the article is quoting Lewandowski from a letter Lewandowski wrote the gaming commission, it's a pretty safe bet Lewandowski isn't denying it...

[Tom]

If Dutrow was set up,, can't he afford a lawyer with all the purse money he got from the game in race where he wasn't set up?

I would put him on the list of people who need to be heard - at the bottom of the list, under every bettor who got screwed by him or his buddies.

I'm fine with it as is.

[JimG]

Two words for bringing back Dutrow:


No Babe


Jim

[cj]

Well, if the article is quoting Lewandowski from a letter Lewandowski wrote the gaming commission, it's a pretty safe bet Lewandowski isn't denying it...

Sounds like he passed on second hand information that the person purported to have said it has denied.

In any case, good luck to the free Dutrow people. I've got far more important things to worry about than a big move-up trainer coming back. Remember all the "dental work" and "hind end" issues he fixed that other legendary trainers apparently couldn't find? No I guess, everyone seems to have forgotten that stuff.

[clicknow]

Sounds like he passed on second hand information that the person purported to have said it has denied.

In any case, good luck to the free Dutrow people. I've got far more important things to worry about than a big move-up trainer coming back. Remember all the "dental work" and "hind end" issues he fixed that other legendary trainers apparently couldn't find? No I guess, everyone seems to have forgotten that stuff.

All I gotta do is pull up the photograph of Big Brown's almost completely disintegrated hoof....... then think about how he must have suffered in that holding barn at BEL that day, on the hottest day of the year, and we later found out he was practically bashing down the walls in there, because he was taken off his "fix"........like a junkie. I think that comprises "great suffering".

I don't even care as much about bettors as the horses...because we can CHOOSE to make a bet or not. The horses can't choose anything at all.

[PaceAdvantage]

Set up a dirty trainer to fall...why not set up a clean trainer to fall next?

Good to know a bunch of you are OK with that...maybe the next trainer they set up will be a hay and oats guy who somebody with some power doesn't like very much...or a rival trainer with some powerful friends wants to see put out for a while...

Hopefully the people in charge of such things don't take these accusations lightly and will reopen the case.

[dilanesp]

Set up a dirty trainer to fall...why not set up a clean trainer to fall next?

Good to know a bunch of you are OK with that...maybe the next trainer they set up will be a hay and oats guy who somebody with some power doesn't like very much...or a rival trainer with some powerful friends wants to see put out for a while...

Hopefully the people in charge of such things don't take these accusations lightly and will reopen the case.

I don't believe for one minute Dutrow was set up, but if there is actual evidence of that, he should get a hearing on it and if it can be proven he should have his record expunged.

[PaceAdvantage]

A former NYS Steward wrote to the gaming commission saying he was told by a NYRA Steward that Dutrow was set up.

Is that evidence? Given that it's not a criminal proceeding, I would gather it would be evidence, even though it would be hearsay evidence and thus inadmissible in a criminal proceeding (unless an exemption is given) .

But this wasn't a criminal proceeding.

[dilanesp]

A former NYS Steward wrote to the gaming commission saying he was told by a NYRA Steward that Dutrow was set up.

Is that evidence? Given that it's not a criminal proceeding, I would gather it would be evidence, even though it would be hearsay evidence and thus inadmissible in a criminal proceeding (unless an exemption is given) .

But this wasn't a criminal proceeding.

Dutrow should get a lawyer, if he wants his license back, bring a grievance before the state racing board, and seek to subpoena any records that support the claim. Or hire a P.I.

The former steward's testimony is, as you note, hearsay, and I think it's pretty unreliable, uncorroborated hearsay. But if he can come up with an actual case that this happened, more power to him.

[cj]

Set up a dirty trainer to fall...why not set up a clean trainer to fall next?

Good to know a bunch of you are OK with that...maybe the next trainer they set up will be a hay and oats guy who somebody with some power doesn't like very much...or a rival trainer with some powerful friends wants to see put out for a while...

Hopefully the people in charge of such things don't take these accusations lightly and will reopen the case.

I'm not ok with that, I just don't believe it.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm not ok with that, I just don't believe it.Welp, given that Lewandowski was a former NYS Steward and he went through the trouble of writing a letter to the NYSGC, I think it at least deserves to be looked into officially...

[biggestal99]

A former NYS Steward wrote to the gaming commission saying he was told by a NYRA Steward that Dutrow was set up.

Is that evidence? Given that it's not a criminal proceeding, I would gather it would be evidence, even though it would be hearsay evidence and thus inadmissible in a criminal proceeding (unless an exemption is given) .

But this wasn't a criminal proceeding.

It’s 100% hearsay. Dutrow is gonna to need more than that.

Comn PA. Depending on hearsay evidence to over ride the ban.

Won’t happen.

Allan

[PaceAdvantage]

It’s 100% hearsay. Dutrow is gonna to need more than that.

Comn PA. Depending on hearsay evidence to over ride the ban.

Won’t happen.

AllanNot depending on anything. Just think the allegations are worth investigating, if only to make sure it doesn't happen to a hay & oats guy (are there any of those left anyway?) in the future.

[Tom]

Set up a dirty trainer to fall...why not set up a clean trainer to fall next?

Good to know a bunch of you are OK with that...maybe the next trainer they set up will be a hay and oats guy who somebody with some power doesn't like very much...or a rival trainer with some powerful friends wants to see put out for a while...

Hopefully the people in charge of such things don't take these accusations lightly and will reopen the case.

First off,no one has proved he was set up.
Secondly, prove he was, THEN we can talk about rectifying it
Until then, sucks to be him.
And why is he not having a lawyer handle it?

[PaceAdvantage]

First off,no one has proved he was set up.
Secondly, prove he was, THEN we can talk about rectifying it
Until then, sucks to be him.Question: What would be the motivation to fabricate this accusation so many years after the fact?

I mean, he's served most of his time already. So what purpose would it serve?

I guess you could argue it's being done to give him a better chance of being reinstated after his 10 years are up?

Also, what's the deal with that? After his 10 years, can he apply for a license and it will be granted?

Pretty sure his sentence is up in a year or two.

[Tom]

Question: What would be the motivation to fabricate this accusation so many years after the fact?

I mean, he's served most of his time already. So what purpose would it serve?

I guess you could argue it's being done to give him a better chance of being reinstated after his 10 years are up?

Also, what's the deal with that? After his 10 years, can he apply for a license and it will be granted?

Pretty sure his sentence is up in a year or two.

What purpose would it serve - what has done to deserve it?
In prison, you earn early release by good behavior.

Bottom line, how does shortening his sentence benefit the game?
I can think of no way in hell how it does.

[PaceAdvantage]

What purpose would it serve - what has done to deserve it?
In prison, you earn early release by good behavior.

Bottom line, how does shortening his sentence benefit the game?
I can think of no way in hell how it does.Not really what I asked, but ok. :pound:

[Tom]

Question: What would be the motivation to fabricate this accusation so many years after the fact?

I don't know.
Nor care. Why should I?
Lots of people get wronged in this world.
What puts this guy on top of the list?

[dilanesp]

I don't know.
Nor care. Why should I?
Lots of people get wronged in this world.
What puts this guy on top of the list?

That's too fatalistic.

If Dutrow is a completely innocent man, wrongly framed, that would matter a lot. That would mean that a person was deprived of his livelihood for 10 years unjustly. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I don't believe for one second that is what happened here. But if there's evidence of it, and Dutrow wants to pursue it, he certainly should receive an opportunity to establish that theory.

[Tom]

That's too fatalistic.

If Dutrow is a completely innocent man, wrongly framed, that would matter a lot. That would mean that a person was deprived of his livelihood for 10 years unjustly. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I don't believe for one second that is what happened here. But if there's evidence of it, and Dutrow wants to pursue it, he certainly should receive an opportunity to establish that theory.

If there is evidence, let HIM provide it, pay for it, proof it, whatever. I am not going to cry for him.

[PaceAdvantage]

Jesus, nobody is crying for him.

[Tom]

Whatever.

[upthecreek]

https://www.horseracingnation.com/news/KHRC_decides_not_to_issue_a_license_to_suspended_t rainer_Rick_Dutrow_Jr_123

[BMustang]

“Since I’ve been away, I’ve had a chance to reflect on things and look at myself,” Dutrow said. “I know that I’m part of the problem. There is no question about that. But I’ve done a lot of time for this. I just need an opportunity to train horses. That’s all I want to do.

I'm sure that he will be reinstated somewhere, sometime before serving the full 10 years, BUT by his own admission, "He's a part of the problem."

Some of these guys (at all levels) get bigger than the game.

Make that bed, and then sleep in it.

[Tom]

Now that he admits it, the next step in his comeback is to discuss with authorities on how he compensates the thousands and thousands of people who lost money because of his total lack of honesty, integrity, and character.

Talk is cheap, especially when you already made your money.

IMHO, he should be allowed to train the day after the Ice Follies are held in Hell.

[dilanesp]

Now that he admits it, the next step in his comeback is to discuss with authorities on how he compensates the thousands and thousands of people who lost money because of his total lack of honesty, integrity, and character.

Talk is cheap, especially when you already made your money.

IMHO, he should be allowed to train the day after the Ice Follies are held in Hell.

I think he should serve the 10 years. After that, as part of the reinstatement process, there should be a conversation about taking responsibility, restitution, etc.

He's acting like it's automatic that he gets a license after 10 years and that he can take responsibility to shorten his sentence. I do not see why.

[Tom]

I think he should serve the 10 years. After that, as part of the reinstatement process, there should be a conversation about taking responsibility, restitution, etc.

He's acting like it's automatic that he gets a license after 10 years and that he can take responsibility to shorten his sentence. I do not see why.

Absolutely.
Just because he FINALLY admits is was a stinking crook is not reason to shorten his sentence. All the more reason to make him serve it.

[airford1]

They should at least let Dutrow work for Baffert

[classhandicapper]

Richard Dutrow could be back soon.

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/rick-dutrow-nearing-return/