Sports Betting at Tracks - How Would it Affect You?

[DeanT]

Here's an article on the (perhaps) soon to be offered sports betting at tracks (or perhaps alongside racing in an ADW):

http://www.harnessracingupdate.com/2018/03/25/brush-and-crush-part-2-sports-betting-friend-foe-or-something-in-between/

It looks at how sports betting coexists in Australia and elsewhere with horse racing, and how their bettors have reacted.

Wondering - how would this legislative change affect you? Would you change your play, bet more sports, reload your bankrolls to bet both more sports and racing in the same account, no change at all?

I'm interested to see what y'all think about this.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Even with a recent payoff plummet I am getting a 7-1 return on horse races. Sports betting whatever! I am not a pure gambler though. I just love this game.

[Saratoga_Mike]

It already exists at Delaware Park - parlays only, though.

[thaskalos]

Here's an article on the (perhaps) soon to be offered sports betting at tracks (or perhaps alongside racing in an ADW):

http://www.harnessracingupdate.com/2018/03/25/brush-and-crush-part-2-sports-betting-friend-foe-or-something-in-between/

It looks at how sports betting coexists in Australia and elsewhere with horse racing, and how their bettors have reacted.

Wondering - how would this legislative change affect you? Would you change your play, bet more sports, reload your bankrolls to bet both more sports and racing in the same account, no change at all?

I'm interested to see what y'all think about this.

The track patrons will obviously wager on both horses AND sports...but those folks will have a set amount of money at their disposal...and any money that they bet on sports will be put "on hold" for a substantial amount of time. That can't help the horse-betting churn, IMO.

[jay68802]

Will not change a thing, my bookie already hangs out at the track.

[DeanT]

The track patrons will obviously wager on both horses AND sports...but those folks will have a set amount of money at their disposal...and any money that they bet on sports will be put "on hold" for a substantial amount of time. That can't help the horse-betting churn, IMO.

I think that's true.

On the flipside, we all probably know players who left the track to, say, play poker, or sports bet a bit.

If it's legal, do any of these folks come back to the track to play an afternoon slate of football games, see that there's a pick 5 carryover, or hangs with his horse racing peeps again and takes dip back into the horse racing pools?

[Andy Asaro]

7 or 8 years ago I bought a domain. www.californiasportsbetting.com

Have no idea why I still have it.

[thaskalos]

I think that's true.

On the flipside, we all probably know players who left the track to, say, play poker, or sports bet a bit.

If it's legal, do any of these folks come back to the track to play an afternoon slate of football games, see that there's a pick 5 carryover, or hangs with his horse racing peeps again and takes dip back into the horse racing pools?

Doubtful, IMO. The players who have left the game in order to bet sports are probably betting on sports right now...while using the street bookies who can be easily found at every racetrack or OTB. And these bookies allow you to bet on credit, which, as the credit card industry has already proven, is the way that most consumers like to do "business".

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I was at Monmouth park Sunday for an Easter egg hunt. Poked around to see what’s going on. Nice to see they repainted the umbrellas for the picnic area. Oh and some sweet TVs with blue to tie in with sports betting and William
Hill :ThmbDown:

[horses4courses]

It already exists at Delaware Park - parlays only, though.

Are William Hill taking those parlay bets?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Are William Hill taking those parlay bets?

Great question. I have no idea who helps with the betting lines. I've never played a parlay card at Delaware. They do a steady sports-betting business on Saturdays and Sundays in the fall, with the sports-betting crowd skewing younger than the racing crowd. I'd need to watch more carefully, but I don't see those drawn to the track by sports betting giving the track much of a second thought, but there must be some small percentage. Delaware has a first-rate simulcast area, and by extension sports-betting area --- they invested big-time in a very, very long wall of high-quality TVs a few years ago. Oh, I don't believe Delaware Park (or Dover) is allowed to take bets on anything but pro sports, at least that was the case a few years back. I never pay attention to the sports-betting boards, so I don't know if that changed.

[Andy Asaro]

The point is that racing will have an opportunity to convert. And IMO they will screw up the opportunity.

[jay68802]

The point is that racing will have an opportunity to convert. And IMO they will screw up the opportunity.

Come on Andy, when was the last time in the last ten years that horse race has screwed up a opportunity? OK, maybe not ten years, the last five years? OK, maybe since yesterday? Tell me that.

[thaskalos]

The racing industry wanted to get into the casino business...and we all saw what that did for the welfare of our favorite game. Now, the racing industry endeavors to branch out into another form of gambling. Is there a reason to be more optimistic about the welfare of the game THIS time around? I think not.

Unless the current racing product improves, especially on the weekdays...then any other forms of gambling that are introduced on racetrack grounds can only take players away from the game where they are needed the most.

[lamboguy]

The racing industry wanted to get into the casino business...and we all saw what that did for the welfare of our favorite game. Now, the racing industry endeavors to branch out into another form of gambling. Is there a reason to be more optimistic about the welfare of the game THIS time around? I think not.

Unless the current racing product improves, especially on the weekdays...then any other forms of gambling that are introduced on racetrack grounds can only take players away from the game where they are needed the most.maybe we should bring back gin rummy and klaberjass.

i wonder if anyone here knows the game of klaberjass?

[dlivery]

I have seen some nice pots on the tables
Kinda like a game where you sit and wait pounce.
With the way players are playing today at the tracks seems they are looking for the diamond in the scruff.

[Dave Schwartz]

maybe we should bring back gin rummy and klaberjass.

i wonder if anyone here knows the game of klaberjass?

Lambo,

You'd think that a guy who has actually dealt Faro Bank would know every game, but I must admit that you've got me there.


Dave

[Seabiscuit@AR]

One issue with sports betting will be to the extent they allow "in the run" or "in play" betting on sports while the match or game is live. In particular if they will allow these live bets to be placed over the internet

Sports betting before the game/match starts is not that big a deal as turnover is not that big. However growth with "in the run" or "in play" betting on sports has exploded with some sports in recent years. It is this type of betting which could put horse racing into the shade

[cj]

Lambo,

You'd think that a guy who has actually dealt Faro Bank would know every game, but I must admit that you've got me there.


Dave

Sounds like one of those games from Vegas Vacation.

[lamboguy]

Lambo,

You'd think that a guy who has actually dealt Faro Bank would know every game, but I must admit that you've got me there.


Davei never in a million years thought that wikipedia would have this one, but they do! i used to play it at the Mayfair and Cavendish club for big money years ago.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaberjass

[biggestal99]

One issue with sports betting will be to the extent they allow "in the run" or "in play" betting on sports while the match or game is live. In particular if they will allow these live bets to be placed over the internet

Sports betting before the game/match starts is not that big a deal as turnover is not that big. However growth with "in the run" or "in play" betting on sports has exploded with some sports in recent years. It is this type of betting which could put horse racing into the shade

Betfair also allows cashout before the event is over. which is an excellent way to lock in profits. with no worries about the outcome.

If Monmouth is allowed to take sports bets its almost guaranteed that they team with Betfair to provide internet options on sports betting. wonder what their commission will be? 8%? 10%? 12%?

Allan

[Inner Dirt]

How many people in here have actually done it? I discovered Agua Calienete in 1990 and it unfortunately closed the horse track 3 years later. My friends and I which were a group of four always bet both. We handicapped the horses well before hand and while multiple tracks were offered we usually just played the live races at AC and one other track. The sports betting was done as something to watch in between races and we didn't invest much on it, usually a $20 spot each on a 3-game parlay. The horses were the priority and the sports betting really didn't effect the horse betting. At the time I was betting $50 to $200 on each horse race while a $20 spot provided 2-3 hours of sports betting action.

[DeanT]

How many people in here have actually done it? I discovered Agua Calienete in 1990 and it unfortunately closed the horse track 3 years later. My friends and I which were a group of four always bet both. We handicapped the horses well before hand and while multiple tracks were offered we usually just played the live races at AC and one other track. The sports betting was done as something to watch in between races and we didn't invest much on it, usually a $20 spot each on a 3-game parlay. The horses were the priority and the sports betting really didn't effect the horse betting. At the time I was betting $50 to $200 on each horse race while a $20 spot provided 2-3 hours of sports betting action.

I have a feeling this is the way it may go.

When slots entered a racetrack, horse betting handle was off about 15%. That's maybe your casual player moving over, not as much what you guys did. But there has to be some sort of drag, imo.

[Inner Dirt]

How many people in here have actually done it? I discovered Agua Calienete in 1990 and it unfortunately closed the horse track 3 years later. My friends and I which were a group of four always bet both. We handicapped the horses well before hand and while multiple tracks were offered we usually just played the live races at AC and one other track. The sports betting was done as something to watch in between races and we didn't invest much on it, usually a $20 spot each on a 3-game parlay. The horses were the priority and the sports betting really didn't effect the horse betting. At the time I was betting $50 to $200 on each horse race while a $20 spot provided 2-3 hours of sports betting action.



I have a feeling this is the way it may go.

When slots entered a racetrack, horse betting handle was off about 15%. That's maybe your casual player moving over, not as much what you guys did. But there has to be some sort of drag, imo.

It could also go the other way and actually pull in new customers. You could have the serious sports bettor decide to bet a $20 here and there on a horse race. He may also decide to hang out to watch the game he just bet and buy a sandwich and wash it down with a couple beers.

[Dave Schwartz]

Sounds like one of those games from Vegas Vacation.

Went by several names in the old west, including Buck the Tiger. Basically, it was a highly cheatable game.

The phrase "case card" comes from faro, and from that phrase comes the term "case money."

I learned the game when I was 10.

:-)

[CincyHorseplayer]

I stated my point from the outset. I only like to play this game. I guess the question should be do people that bet on horse racing want to bet on everything available? If it's just fun to toss money around this is just a new way to water down and take away from the greatness of all the betting outlets. Every man with a modicum of intelligence overestimates himself, self included, so why not let them scramble their brains even more betting everything then come back to racing? I have actually seen this happen with chronic slots losers at Belterra. The event is more exciting and you can pick your odds. Being down 5G's in the last month and winning $700 isn't that exciting. Anyway random Cincy thoughts. I hate other sports and games so I'm on this and like my returns. Everybody on here has made me a better player.

[onefast99]

Betfair also allows cashout before the event is over. which is an excellent way to lock in profits. with no worries about the outcome.

If Monmouth is allowed to take sports bets its almost guaranteed that they team with Betfair to provide internet options on sports betting. wonder what their commission will be? 8%? 10%? 12%?

Allan
The sports wagering case in front of the Supreme Court will allow MP to begin taking Wagers two weeks after its approval. There will be no internet wagering for quite sometime as the main theme here is to get people to the track to wager. I would imagine within a year the next phase will be introduced and most likely that would be sw at casinos and eventually small bar type wagering venues which should then lead to internet gaming run by the tracks and casinos. William Hill will be the recipient of all wagering platforms. As I have stated since the day we all discussed sw I don’t believe it is the only revenue stream that can save horse racing in New Jersey but it is a good start with plenty of growth opportunity ahead.

[biggestal99]

The sports wagering case in front of the Supreme Court will allow MP to begin taking Wagers two weeks after its approval. There will be no internet wagering for quite sometime as the main theme here is to get people to the track to wager. I would imagine within a year the next phase will be introduced and most likely that would be sw at casinos and eventually small bar type wagering venues which should then lead to internet gaming run by the tracks and casinos. William Hill will be the recipient of all wagering platforms. As I have stated since the day we all discussed sw I don’t believe it is the only revenue stream that can save horse racing in New Jersey but it is a good start with plenty of growth opportunity ahead.

Once sports betting is legalized, it will be a natural for Monmouth to team up with betfair to handle the internet portion just like the casinos have teamed up with betfair to handle the casino internet.

Betfair Internet casino revenues are way up in Jersey.

I can easily envision Darby wanting in on the internet revenues before the casinos scoop it all up.

Allan

[Valuist]

It already exists at Delaware Park - parlays only, though.

Parlays don't (or shouldn't) count

[Valuist]

How many people in here have actually done it? I discovered Agua Calienete in 1990 and it unfortunately closed the horse track 3 years later. My friends and I which were a group of four always bet both. We handicapped the horses well before hand and while multiple tracks were offered we usually just played the live races at AC and one other track. The sports betting was done as something to watch in between races and we didn't invest much on it, usually a $20 spot each on a 3-game parlay. The horses were the priority and the sports betting really didn't effect the horse betting. At the time I was betting $50 to $200 on each horse race while a $20 spot provided 2-3 hours of sports betting action.

My horse racing handle now it about 10% of what it was ten years ago. The edges in the game are just so tough nowadays. I pretty much only bet the biggest 15-20 days a year now where I know there's a decent amount of public money. I know people like to fixate on big individual scores, but in the long haul, the takeout in racing is so much worse than sports betting that most people would be better off betting sports.

[CincyHorseplayer]

My horse racing handle now it about 10% of what it was ten years ago. The edges in the game are just so tough nowadays. I pretty much only bet the biggest 15-20 days a year now where I know there's a decent amount of public money. I know people like to fixate on big individual scores, but in the long haul, the takeout in racing is so much worse than sports betting that most people would be better off betting sports.

Takeout doesn't affect the 7.5-1 return I get on my bets. Sports betting doesn't offer that. I don't know anything about your game but to me this is a tired argument from players who can't win in this game and I don't buy it. I'm 22 years in and I work to find my edges.

[thaskalos]

Takeout doesn't affect the 7.5-1 return I get on my bets. Sports betting doesn't offer that. I don't know anything about your game but to me this is a tired argument from players who can't win in this game and I don't buy it. I'm 22 years in and I work to find my edges.

How does your current betting volume compare to what you used to wager in the past, Cincy?

[CincyHorseplayer]

How does your current betting volume compare to what you used to wager in the past, Cincy?

I have bet 69% of the races I made lines for since December Gus. If I can't squeeze 6-1 out of it I won't bet. That usually translates to about 50% of every card I'm looking at. My numbers plummeted in March. Sub 2-1 shots were winning like mad everywhere.

[CincyHorseplayer]

How does your current betting volume compare to what you used to wager in the past, Cincy?

I bet more these days because I believe in what I am doing. Influenced by you I became a better bettor not just a decent handicapper. That didn't happen over night for me. All the work that was in it's germination stage that I sent you has come to fruition. 2/3rds of my play is on turf. If I was reduced to dirt and at this take I could never keep up. The opportunities are just not there on dirt.

[biggestal99]

Takeout doesn't affect the 7.5-1 return I get on my bets. Sports betting doesn't offer that. I don't know anything about your game but to me this is a tired argument from players who can't win in this game and I don't buy it. I'm 22 years in and I work to find my edges.

You would get more than 7.5-1 if the takeout was lower. Just as bettors on the betfair exchange who pay 5% commission make more money on each winning market than I, who pay 12%. Its all about the benjamins. Horses that pay 2.00 (odds evens 1-1)
On the exchange. Uk bettors get back 1.90, jersey bettors get back 1.76.

Allan

[MutuelClerk]

I can tell you one track it's not going to affect. That's Hazel Park in Michigan. This is going to be their last day of operation.

[cj]

I can tell you one track it's not going to affect. That's Hazel Park in Michigan. This is going to be their last day of operation.

Honestly didn't know they were still running. When they first started back a few years ago I tried making speed figures for the place but found it impossible. Forgot about it since.

[lamboguy]

i just looked at baseball lines last night. the offshore places are using ten cent spreads for games under $175. for the $175-$200 they use fifteen cent spreads. above that they were using twenty cent spreads.

in the 1990's you could go to the Barbary Coast casino in Las Vegas and bet up to $500 on a game with a five cent spread. that place did a ton of action using the smaller limit and juice.

Expressbet is involved in some type of fixed odds betting in Europe and had a tremendous quarter because of that. if we had fixed odds betting in this country the game would explode no matter what sports wagering does or doesn't do.

[LemonSoupKid]

i just looked at baseball lines last night. the offshore places are using ten cent spreads for games under $175. for the $175-$200 they use fifteen cent spreads. above that they were using twenty cent spreads.

in the 1990's you could go to the Barbary Coast casino in Las Vegas and bet up to $500 on a game with a five cent spread. that place did a ton of action using the smaller limit and juice.

Expressbet is involved in some type of fixed odds betting in Europe and had a tremendous quarter because of that. if we had fixed odds betting in this country the game would explode no matter what sports wagering does or doesn't do.

Right on all accounts. I recently told a bookie to drop the "juicy" lines; he was setting the normal baseball lines as .20 and not .10. It is a huge difference. Most people are unaware of how big an edge jumping from one to the other is for the house.

There is too much work in fixed odds betting (for the government entities) which is why if you see it pop up, it might entirely bankrupt them here. Can you even imagine a fairly big bookmaker offering a locked price (that was reasonable) in horse racing here in the US? It would be a revelation. And a threat.

[biggestal99]

Interesting article about Sports betting in todays Bloomberg.

will hill says 60% of its Nevada bets are online,

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-12/the-british-bookmaker-betting-big-on-american-sports-gambling

and that sport books margins are 18% but on line is only 8%

Allan

[cutchemist42]

I would love even a truly legal 12% exchange like NJ over the 19% WPS ASD charges me on American tracks. At least WO is opening soon which gets me down to 14%.

[upthecreek]

https://amp.app.com/amp/523628002?from=new-cookie&__twitter_impression=true

[RunForTheRoses]

https://nypost.com/2018/04/22/supreme-court-to-decide-on-nj-sports-gambling-this-week/

[biggestal99]

https://nypost.com/2018/04/22/supreme-court-to-decide-on-nj-sports-gambling-this-week/

tomorrow (4/24/2018) at 10A. Maybe.

Allan

[One Eye]

There are different types of horseplayers. Some will exclusively play horses regardless of the vigorish. However, I have noticed many horseplayers naturally gravitate toward sports betting as they are conceptually similar.

Let me explain why I almost NEVER bet horses anymore. In Nevada (and other states) you receive a pitiful rebate or nothing at all. One day, I walked into a nearby race book and started inquiring about the live betting sports app. The difference in takeout between horse racing and sports betting is exceptional. Assuming you win about 50% percent of your bets, you pay about 4.55% on a typical sports wager. This percentage is even lower on certain bets at certain casinos. For example, I just studied the overnight for the Braves/Reds game. The Reds offer even money and the Braves ask you to pay $110 to win $100. This means the takeout is below 3%. I could conveniently place a bet on this game right now through my smart phone. Additionally, casinos are offering in-game wagering through smart phone apps. The takeout is generally increased on these wagers (e.g., -115 on each side), but the odds constantly fluctuate, which helps savvy bettors find value.

Currently, I allocate about 5% of my play to horseracing. The horseracing industry has decided that a chosen few will receive reasonable takeout, while the average sucker is subjected to ridiculous takeout such as 17% takeout on win bets. Takeout of 23% or more is not uncommon on exotic wagers. Trying to stay alive under these circumstances, in the absence of meaningful rebates, is an exercise in futility. Sports betting offers more appeal to most bettors, as they will generally lose a lot less and have a larger menu of wagering options.

[onefast99]

tomorrow (4/24/2018) at 10A. Maybe.

Allan
April 30th if not then May 14th or 21st. Big item in sw for NJ is the possibility of an “integrity” fee which has been proposed this could hold up wagering once sw is approved in NJ but Drazin has said no way to this fee. Interesting comments by Drazin said it will be approved by SCOTUS but what Type of approval will it be? A lot going on here....

[Hambletonian]

There are different types of horseplayers. Some will exclusively play horses regardless of the vigorish. However, I have noticed many horseplayers naturally gravitate toward sports betting as they are conceptually similar.

Let me explain why I almost NEVER bet horses anymore. In Nevada (and other states) you receive a pitiful rebate or nothing at all. One day, I walked into a nearby race book and started inquiring about the live betting sports app. The difference in takeout between horse racing and sports betting is exceptional. Assuming you win about 50% percent of your bets, you pay about 4.55% on a typical sports wager. This percentage is even lower on certain bets at certain casinos. For example, I just studied the overnight for the Braves/Reds game. The Reds offer even money and the Braves ask you to pay $110 to win $100. This means the takeout is below 3%. I could conveniently place a bet on this game right now through my smart phone. Additionally, casinos are offering in-game wagering through smart phone apps. The takeout is generally increased on these wagers (e.g., -115 on each side), but the odds constantly fluctuate, which helps savvy bettors find value.

Currently, I allocate about 5% of my play to horseracing. The horseracing industry has decided that a chosen few will receive reasonable takeout, while the average sucker is subjected to ridiculous takeout such as 17% takeout on win bets. Takeout of 23% or more is not uncommon on exotic wagers. Trying to stay alive under these circumstances, in the absence of meaningful rebates, is an exercise in futility. Sports betting offers more appeal to most bettors, as they will generally lose a lot less and have a larger menu of wagering options.

When the racing industry decided new fans were more trouble then they were worth, they killed the smart recreational handicapper. Dumb money was virtually eliminated. In NY, we lost all those OTB guys playing the Apple-Boy Daily Double, betting right off the entry sheet. Back in the day, if you read the Form you were a prince among men. Now all that is left is the whales who get giant rebates, the guys putting in a million bets at the bell through direct computer access to the pools, and the serious recreational guys who are being eaten alive by the first two.

[biggestal99]

April 30th if not then May 14th or 21st. Big item in sw for NJ is the possibility of an “integrity” fee which has been proposed this could hold up wagering once sw is approved in NJ but Drazin has said no way to this fee. Interesting comments by Drazin said it will be approved by SCOTUS but what Type of approval will it be? A lot going on here....

If it’s a narrow ruling For Jersey, that would be the best.

That way the state would keep its noses out of it.

Monmouth and the casinos would make their own rules and that’s that.

Once jersey gets involved in something it’s a horror show. Look how long it took adw and exchange wagering. Forever.

Allan

[classhandicapper]

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding about handle.

People have X amount of dollars they can afford to lose per week or month etc... on gambling. The vast majority of them will lose X or close to X at various rates depending on the game they play and other factors. If people start betting sports they will lose of portion of whatever they were formerly betting on other gambling games (including horses) on sports instead.

The End.

The only good way to increase the bottom line to the racing industry is to increase MARKET SHARE of gambling dollars. Little tweaks that may impact the handle don't do much for the bottom line. They just change the rate at which the customer loses X. To have an impact, you have to make gambling on horses a better overall value proposition in terms of probability of wining and entertainment than the other options (like poker, sports, lotteries etc..)

[classhandicapper]

When the racing industry decided new fans were more trouble then they were worth, they killed the smart recreational handicapper. Dumb money was virtually eliminated. In NY, we lost all those OTB guys playing the Apple-Boy Daily Double, betting right off the entry sheet. Back in the day, if you read the Form you were a prince among men. Now all that is left is the whales who get giant rebates, the guys putting in a million bets at the bell through direct computer access to the pools, and the serious recreational guys who are being eaten alive by the first two.

100% agree.

I knew a guy at NYCOTB that used to bet 2K a pop into small pools and complain to me that all the horses he was betting were opening up the favorite. :bang:

The pools used to be full of players that were just tossing money around in the same way people buy scratch off lottery tickets. A ton of that money is gone forever. At the same time, premium information and discussion with top players is available all over the place. What took me 10-20 years of trial and error to learn on my own you can probably learn in a couple of years now. I feel like I am learning at an accelerated rate now too, but I'm in a hamster wheel.

[Inner Dirt]

When the racing industry decided new fans were more trouble then they were worth, they killed the smart recreational handicapper. Dumb money was virtually eliminated. In NY, we lost all those OTB guys playing the Apple-Boy Daily Double, betting right off the entry sheet.

California was late to the party as state run lottos and OTBs did not spring up till the mid 80's. The lotto took away a lot of the people betting off the program, they kind of disappeared on track in Cali almost overnight.

[upthecreek]

https://twitter.com/kip/status/991710237286514689

[Denny]

Horse racing is a "sport" that we can bet on.

It's not going away, there's too much money involved in breeding and selling.

If we lose some tracks, so what?

They're not all closing.

There will always be horses running somewhere we can bet on.

[LemonSoupKid]

Horse racing is a "sport" that we can bet on.

It's not going away, there's too much money involved in breeding and selling.

If we lose some tracks, so what?

They're not all closing.

There will always be horses running somewhere we can bet on.

sober and pretty optimistic analysis

kudos ;)

[dilanesp]

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding about handle.

People have X amount of dollars they can afford to lose per week or month etc... on gambling. The vast majority of them will lose X or close to X at various rates depending on the game they play and other factors. If people start betting sports they will lose of portion of whatever they were formerly betting on other gambling games (including horses) on sports instead.

The End.

The only good way to increase the bottom line to the racing industry is to increase MARKET SHARE of gambling dollars. Little tweaks that may impact the handle don't do much for the bottom line. They just change the rate at which the customer loses X. To have an impact, you have to make gambling on horses a better overall value proposition in terms of probability of wining and entertainment than the other options (like poker, sports, lotteries etc..)

Well I think this is basically right but with one exception.

Sports bettors are at least the SORT of people who might be amenable to try horse racing. A lot of them already love statistics, for instance.

[molson721]

Why? Racing has NEVER figured out how to treat its customers. I am getting tired of being shit on by tracks and companies that own the tracks but only care about their casino customers. I guess you could say it is my way of giving racing the middle finger by spending my wagering dollars on sports instead of racing.
Hopefully this message will be heard by the only people that seem to make money on racing, The wealthy owners, syndicates, big name trainers and money making jockeys. If they don't care about me as a customer, maybe I should give some thought as to why I would want to wager on a sport that benefits them!

[molson721]

Horse racing is a "sport" that we can bet on.

It's not going away, there's too much money involved in breeding and selling.

If we lose some tracks, so what?

They're not all closing.

There will always be horses running somewhere we can bet on.

You are the type of fan the antiquated people running horse racing count on. Enjoy while you can. I wager less and less and I am part of the demographic racing needs to attract to continue on if it wants to last more than 15 years (in case you haven't noticed Denny, outside of a few big race days and boutique meets, most of the customers will be gone in the next 15-20 years)!.
I hope you enjoy getting shit on as a customer. The flies that run racing enjoying feeding off of people that think like like you!

[tophatmert]

The sports leagues that exist now and the new ones that will be started to capitalize on the gambling dollars will out market the horse racing companies. In-game betting and games scheduled all day to accommodate gamblers will make for tough competition. The manner in which sports is presented to the public is going to change a great deal once gambling is legalized , and when it comes to changing I don't see horse racing having a chance against the global marketing power of the sports leagues .Yesterday I looked at a few Woodbine races and noticed in roughly 25 starts Norman McKnight is hitting 60% winners and 100% in the money and I think some people may prefer a more level playing field for their gambling dollar.

[lamboguy]

probably the main reason why horse racing did very well for many years was that it was the only sport that had fan participation in it. first, everyone that went to the races could place a wager on the outcome of the race. 2nd, you could either own a race horse or own and train a race horse and be a small entity and be able to survive the game as well as the bigger guys.

today racing has managed to scare the bettors away due to lack of transparency and integrity. they also made it impossible for small owners and trainers to survive and have basically eliminated them.

the betting part is real doozer. they rewarded the larger bettors with more access to the mutual pools and higher rebates than the smaller guys can get. what the game doesn't realize is that by scaring away the smaller bettors also diminishes the opportunity for a smaller guy to get a bigger one interested in the game and become a potential customer.

the game has had many shots in the arm to jump start it with simulcasting, casino money, breaks in the tax code. nothing has really helped it.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/WALLACHLEGAL/status/996027784764981249

[summersquall]

High Court sides with New Jersey, reverses lower district court ruling.

[Andy Asaro]

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-476_dbfi.pdf


https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/996034065437409281

[upthecreek]

https://twitter.com/Horseplayersbet/status/999294678544633858

[LemonSoupKid]

What will be the withholding patterns or regulations for the States/Feds with sports wagering now?

[MutuelClerk]

The racetrack i work at doesn't have slots. I can see them passing on sports betting, letting the local casinos have sports betting and a race book ( which they don't have right now) to make their sports book complete. And we get 2000 slot or instant racing machines.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1009921341460369408

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/LSPReport/status/1009936526921359361