View Full Version : Trump signs tariffs
fast4522
06-26-2018, 06:57 PM
How many protectionist trade deals and tariffs that Trump is advocating have killed the US economy? The answer is none.
And protectionism trade policy haven't kill the US economy since the late 1970s. How come? Because there hasn't been any in the last 45+ years, and unfettered 'free' trade you advocate have been in operation since the late 1970s.
Something like 45+ plus consecutive years of trade deficits are the results of all this 'free' trade.
Idiots may think trade deficits and trade in-balances are 'good' for the economy, but it isn't. 'Free' trade policies that you and a few others have supported have failed -- there has been five recessions since January 1980... 'free' trade and trade deficits have been in full force since then. Five recessions, plus numerous job loss, nominal wage growth, and more, thanks to 'free' trade. Thank God we have Trump to turn all this around.
All you 'free' trade devotees should have your head examined because you are clueless about all this. The 60,000 factories closed are never mentioned by you guys; the onerous tariffs countries place on our imported US products are never mentioned by you guys. You guys think you are so smart and I am an idiot. Good, I don't care what you think about me because you have zero influence on here.
Go to the bank on this -- Trump will win this trade 'war'. China's economy is in the tank; the EU economy is cratering; Canada is in recession; Mexico is on the brink of civil war and chaos, both economically and in the streets.
You 'free' trade idiots talk about how Trump's tariffs will kill our economy, causing US consumers to say no mas, no mas. Well, overpriced French cheese and fancy wine, overrated French wine, and even H-D's Hogs are not on the daily buy list for most US consumers.
BTW -- what did Romney ever do that was superior to Trump?
Became governor of Massachusetts? Yes he was and he quit before his term was up. He also brought in Romney Care and said it was the best thing he ever did. Says alot about him doesn't it? Trump also bankrupted more companies at Bain Capital than Trump ever did his own companies. And former Bain property, Georgetown Steel, is up and running after many years in the dark thanks to Trump!
Romney also ran for president 2-3 times and did not succeed in any of these attempts. Plus with 4 weeks before the end of his 2012 presidential campaign against Barry, he quit there too, rarely seen or heard at all. He's a loser and a quitter.
Trump is the most successful businessman in the past 35 years -- a success in New York real estate, world-wide leader in real estate construction, No. 1 rated television show for 15 straight years; runs for President and against 16 somewhat qualified candidates, the entire elite media, the GOP and DC establishment class, plus the 98% of the PA-OT general posters also against him, he wins without them and you!
Trump broke down the Big Blue Wall I predicted he'd break (no one else agreed with me); he won my state of Pennsylvania, which I also predicted (same here), and in the process defeated both the despicable Bush clan and the Clinton Crime family. He won states that the GOP didn't win in 35+ plus years.
He's a winner in a winner-take-all world. Not the idiots and know-nothings that constantly bash him.
Trump is a proven winner and I am on Trump's side, Romney is a proven loser and you are on Romney's side. :lol::lol: Enough said.
Nice.:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:
burnsy
06-26-2018, 07:00 PM
Tariffs are good now? Jeez, what a hypocrite world. If Obama or any of the Dems proposed this the other side and FOX News would be calling them job killing, Traitors. The current flow of these dumb parties never ceases to amaze me. Debt is only bad....when the other guy is in office....that's another rich piece of political bull shit.
Tariffs are the dumbest thing this guy has done. The dumbest economics you can have. Pretty much shot down by Adam Smith in the late 1700's. Now we got trade barriers in 2018. That's a joke.
Then you have brain trusts on here saying the economy has not tanked yet. So what? Its been months, give it time......it will. Americans think things are implemented and the results come in 5 minutes....so dumb. Pointing out that other countries are having problems. As their growth stagnates so will ours. This is a global economy. Plus, with the current tax cuts we need 3 to 5% growth or the deficit just keeps going. Bragging that we are doing great is just BS smoke and mirrors. Another reckoning is coming, it may take months, it may take a few years....but the clowns will eventually be crying, pointing fingers.....its this guys fault, its that guys fault. Then there's the argument over who the biggest loser is Romney or Trump. Like that has anything to do with economics and policy.
Here's a hint for the brain trusts that think they know economics. There's no "winning" a trade war. That's been proven by people some 300 years ago and in the 1930's. If the worlds economy tanks, these assholes will be crying the blues again, printing more money and the whole cycle will continue. People are so naïve they never learn...….like we are booming now. This quarter was like 2.2% and there have been a couple 3% quarters recently. This is probably as good as it gets....before it goes down again. Its not gonna grow for long with this deal. There may be a bump for a while but this can't be sustained. The stock market will eventually correct (tank) and they'll be on TV crying again. Its all shits and giggles until the bottom falls out....:lol::lol:. As sure as shit as I'm sitting here, its coming with these moves.
Trumps gonna turn this all around my ass. Tariffs and trade wars are proven to be the dumbest things that can be done. If these countries cant or wont buy our shit, its just a matter of time. The trade deficit will go higher because like addicts we have to buy from them and our consumption is the highest in the land. Lets just build that stupid wall around the country, that will work......it will be an economic boom. :bang::lol:
Then you got clowns clouding the issue by saying Harley quality has gone down and all this other peripheral BS. Typical that it has nothing to do with the issue. They just don't like the fact that they have to make their shit somewhere else. So people make up shit. What are they supposed to do? Eat 2000 dollars a bike? These morons will believe anything put out there. There will be more companies doing the same. Like I said the trade deficit won't change. Probably get worse. This global economy was coming no matter what. Because of our success everyone else in the world wanted it. That was a good thing not bad. The standard of living around the world has grown exponentially with less fighting. Of course, that meant growing pains for us but eventually it will even out. This could set things BACK not move things forward. This moron could piss away hundreds of years of progress and there will be pain if it gets out of hand. And where are the Republicans? The so called "free trade" people? what a bunch of pussies. This is bad, very bad and if it doesn't stop soon...….the results will be something no one wants. These bozos are crying about recessions. We could see a melt down of epic proportions with real wars to follow...….because this is how things were done centuries ago and before WW 2. Back when wealth was based on seizure and exploitation. Shit for brains. History and economics prove that in the long run, if this goes on, it will be bad. 2018 and we got trade wars and tariffs, are you ****ing kidding me? And people think this is good? :rolleyes:
fast4522
06-26-2018, 07:22 PM
It is real simple, this is the opening of negotiations. Canada can comply or die, they are on the cusp of a housing bubble. As Reckless noted that China's economy has slowed or tanked, they have no choice but negotiation. What is vastly different this time around is our position of strength to get better deals compared to previous history braininess people in their 30's try to sell you. We can go on and on talking about other country names, but tell you the truth I will enjoy watching some who refuse negotiations being crucified.
fast4522
06-28-2018, 11:33 PM
Think they better figure out who is going to play ball and buy some of this.
https://www.wxyz.com/news/america-has-a-record-high-stockpile-of-cheese-at-1385-billion-pounds
JustRalph
06-29-2018, 01:19 AM
Think they better figure out who is going to play ball and buy some of this.
https://www.wxyz.com/news/america-has-a-record-high-stockpile-of-cheese-at-1385-billion-pounds
Why the hell do we stockpile cheese.
PaceAdvantage
06-29-2018, 01:25 AM
Probably to feed all the people in the concentration camps.
elysiantraveller
06-29-2018, 04:18 AM
Why the hell do we stockpile cheese.
Because Farmers are paid to produce the shit regardless of if there is a market for it or not.
And people wonder why deals like NAFTA left out exclusions for stuff like dairy... :rolleyes:
Clocker
07-04-2018, 02:28 AM
Even the Republicans in Congress have figured out that Trump's tariffs are not a good thing.
President Trump is going ahead with his tariffs on steel and aluminum imports from Canada and the European Union, despite having little support in Congress. Republicans have unabashedly spoken out against Trump's trade decision.
“I’d like to kill ’em,” Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT) said (https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/03/trump-tariffs-republicans-congress-hatch-687911) of the tariffs.
“Individual senators have met with the president, including me," echoed Sen. Pat Roberts (R-KA). "The Ag committee met with him, the Finance Committee met with him. And there’s nobody for this.”
Trump is “a protectionist who has his policy wrapped around the rear axle of a pickup," the Agriculture Committee chairman added. "And it’s hard to get out.”
Republicans worry that the tariffs would harmfully affect their state economies, especially after major companies like General Motors warned the Department of Commerce that the trade measure would lead to reduced employment and lower wages. Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI) was especially on edge after Harley Davidson announced it may need to move operations overseas.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2018/07/03/republicans-in-congress-claim-no-one-is-for-trumps-tariffs-n2496993
Clocker
07-04-2018, 02:40 AM
Trump is “a protectionist who has his policy wrapped around the rear axle of a pickup," the Agriculture Committee chairman added. "And it’s hard to get out.”
Or maybe it isn't a pickup?
http://www.michaelpramirez.com/uploads/3/4/9/8/34985326/mrz070118-color-1-7-mb_1_orig.jpg
PaceAdvantage
07-04-2018, 02:53 AM
I know...the country is just falling apart. We are just SO much WORSE OFF than when we had Obama in the White House. It's crazy!
Clocker
07-04-2018, 03:09 AM
I know...the country is just falling apart. We are just SO much WORSE OFF than when we had Obama in the White House. It's crazy!
Trump is a big improvement over Obama and much preferable to Hillary. That does not give him a pass when he does stupid things.
Why does it have to be all or nothing about Trump? Why, in the eyes of many here, can no one criticize anything Trump does without being attacked as a flaming left-winger opposed to everything that Trump does?
Chamber of Commerce Declares War
Even the US Chamber of Commerce, which has become a reliably hyper-Republican operation over the past couple of decades under its firebrand conservative leader, Tom Donohue, has declared war on Trump. “The administration’s new tariffs threaten to spark a global trade war, blares a headline on the Chamber’s website today:
"Tariffs imposed by the United States are nothing more than a tax increase on American consumers and businesses–including manufacturers, farmers, and technology companies–who will all pay more for commonly used products and materials."
And the site has a helpful interactive map so you can see just how badly Trump’s tariffs will affect your state.
https://www.uschamber.com/tariffs
thaskalos
07-04-2018, 04:19 AM
Trump is a big improvement over Obama and much preferable to Hillary. That does not give him a pass when he does stupid things.
Why does it have to be all or nothing about Trump? Why, in the eyes of many here, can no one criticize anything Trump does without being attacked as a flaming left-winger opposed to everything that Trump does?
Because it's called "partisan politics"...and it's as rampant among the private sector as it is throughout the halls of Congress. No doubt you've seen the most nauseating display of it, whenever our president gives a state-of-the-union address...and half the politicos in the audience stand and applaud everything he says, while the other half remain morose in their seats...as if they are at a funeral. I see this and I get sick to my stomach at the thought that those imposters are all playing games with each other...all at the expense of the much-maligned citizen. And it happens with us voters too...often without us fully comprehending that it's taking place. We are given two unworthy voting options in every election, and we readily admit at the start that we are forced to choose the "best of two evils"...but a funny thing happens when our "evil of choice" emerges victorious. We allow ourselves to become overtaken by our "political partisanship"...and become totally oblivious to our new "leader's" obvious shortcomings. What a few months ago was the "best of two evils" suddenly becomes the "Messiah"...who can do or say no wrong, as far as we are concerned. And we lambaste the "other side" of the citizenry, who don't "stand in unison" with our new president...even though we know full well that we ourselves didn't support the PRIOR president...whom we'd criticized just as much as the "other side" is now criticizing our new one. And this "political partisanship" overcomes the "other side" too, to the extent where they become totally blinded to whatever "benefit" may come as a result of the actions of our new president. Equal blindness for all. :ThmbUp:
We argue and fight with one another, without realizing that we are all victims of a gigantic hoax...meant to distract us until the next election...when the establishment will supply us with two more unworthy choices...so that this sad scenario could repeat itself yet again. But don't despair...because things will surely be different next time. The establishment is working on next election's rhetoric...as we speak. :ThmbUp:
elysiantraveller
07-04-2018, 10:02 AM
Trump is a big improvement over Obama and much preferable to Hillary. That does not give him a pass when he does stupid things.
Why does it have to be all or nothing about Trump? Why, in the eyes of many here, can no one criticize anything Trump does without being attacked as a flaming left-winger opposed to everything that Trump does?
Exactly...
The economy improved and became strong under Obama. However one of the biggest complaints is that it was held back due to overregulation and tax policy (Bush tax uncertainty, Obamacare). Economic interventionism.
The economy under Trump is very strong as well... however he and his supporters can't get out of their own way with their own brand of taxes and economic interventionism.
Ultimately this will squander growth opportunity.
It shouldn't be crazy that economic freedom people like us just want the government to get the **** out the way and let the economy do its thing.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help." - Ronald Reagan
Clocker
07-04-2018, 05:18 PM
Because it's called "partisan politics"...and it's as rampant among the private sector as it is throughout the halls of Congress.
All true, but we have also moved beyond partisan politics as usual lately, and into the realm of personality cults. Both Obama and Trump gained a lot of their support from voters who didn't know about or didn't care about the issues, and were not part of the traditional party base.
They based their support solely on a faith that their candidate would make things better, period. Obama was going to put an end to racism and Trump was going to put an end to globalism. They didn't question or care how.
I think that this also accounts for part of why Hillary lost the nomination in 2008, despite being the presumptive winner, and why she lost the general election that she was also "supposed" to win. She was facing a new political force she could not match. You can't have a personality cult if you don't have a personality.
thaskalos
07-04-2018, 05:42 PM
All true, but we have also moved beyond partisan politics as usual lately, and into the realm of personality cults. Both Obama and Trump gained a lot of their support from voters who didn't know about or didn't care about the issues, and were not part of the traditional party base.
They based their support solely on a faith that their candidate would make things better, period. Obama was going to put an end to racism and Trump was going to put an end to globalism. They didn't question or care how.
I think that this also accounts for part of why Hillary lost the nomination in 2008, despite being the presumptive winner, and why she lost the general election that she was also "supposed" to win. She was facing a new political force she could not match. You can't have a personality cult if you don't have a personality.
Was this the case...or was it simply that their candidate's opposition was simply too suspect to warrant any serious consideration? After all...whom did Obama and Trump really beat, on their way to the White House? With Obama's and Trump's "political experience"...where was the faith that they would "make things better, period" really hinging on? IMO...both Obama and Trump benefited by facing the weakest electoral opposition that we've seen in many years.
elysiantraveller
07-06-2018, 09:48 AM
Trump Administration enforces tariffs on $34 Billion in Chinese goods. China immediately retaliates with $34 Billion in United States agricultural products.
http://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/so-it-begins-gif-5.gif
Clocker
07-06-2018, 10:08 AM
Trump Administration enforces tariffs on $34 Billion in Chinese goods.
Edited for accuracy:
Trump Administration enforces taxes on US consumers for $34 Billion in Chinese goods.
elysiantraveller
07-06-2018, 10:10 AM
Edited for accuracy:
Trump Administration enforces taxes on US consumers for $34 Billion in Chinese goods.
Nobody wins a trade war...
Clocker
07-06-2018, 10:48 AM
Nobody wins a trade war...
China says that it will respond with tariffs on an equal $34 billion of US exports, including soybeans and pork. Trump said that he would counter with progressive increases on up to $450 billion of Chinese imports to this country.
Trump says that we will "win" the trade war because Americans can bear the pain and suffering better than the Chinese can. If I had Trump's money, I could bear a lot of pain too.
But in a fresh sign of industry's unease, a business survey on Thursday again showed the US services sector already has experienced supply chain interruptions and rising costs due both to the looming tariffs and those already in place.
"We're starting to see signs of inflation, not sharp inflation, but definitely inflation," Anthony Nieves, head of a services industry survey committee for the Institute for Supply Management, told reporters.
White House trade officials say the current strength of the US economy means the US can withstand more pain than its rivals if the battle escalates further.
But economists also say the trade war comes as the expansion of the world's largest economies -- which is bolstering demand for US goods and services -- may be starting to run out of steam, raising the risks that tariffs could harm growth.
But the Trump team has paid little heed to such warnings, with Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross this week slamming them as "premature and probably quite inaccurate."
This is the same team that said that there would be no price increases in response to US steel tariffs.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trade-wars-trump-loads-first-volley-against-china-165021914.html
elysiantraveller
07-06-2018, 10:56 AM
China says that it will respond with tariffs on an equal $34 billion of US exports, including soybeans and pork. Trump said that he would counter with progressive increases on up to $450 billion of Chinese imports to this country.
Trump says that we will "win" the trade war because Americans can bear the pain and suffering better than the Chinese can. If I had Trump's money, I could bear a lot of pain too.
This is the same team that said that there would be no price increases in response to US steel tariffs.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trade-wars-trump-loads-first-volley-against-china-165021914.html
Its not smart both politically and economically,
Politically especially during an election cycle. Chinese are much better equipped to bear the pain because they do what their leaders tell them to do... they don't pick them.
Economically its not smart... ever.
FantasticDan
07-06-2018, 11:21 AM
https://twitter.com/BetoORourke/status/1015243897168125952
FantasticDan
07-06-2018, 11:42 AM
https://twitter.com/Bencjacobs/status/1015227693749751808
FantasticDan
07-06-2018, 11:48 AM
https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1015217498227175426
https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1015218568898793472
https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1015219818163785728
FantasticDan
07-06-2018, 12:06 PM
https://twitter.com/SethMacFarlane/status/1015257250024181760
PaceAdvantage
07-06-2018, 12:07 PM
Trump is a big improvement over Obama and much preferable to Hillary. That does not give him a pass when he does stupid things.
Why does it have to be all or nothing about Trump? Why, in the eyes of many here, can no one criticize anything Trump does without being attacked as a flaming left-winger opposed to everything that Trump does?There would be plenty of criticisms of Trump here from his supporters if they didn't have to spend all their time responding to the non-stop, 24/7 criticisms and outrageousness from the Trump-haters on here.
When I've had a chance to catch my breath, I've criticized Trump. For instance, I think he caves way too much (I've written this before). I don't think he should have signed the EO ending family separation. If you want the law changed, let Congress do it...that's their job.
I also agree with elysian that he shouldn't have declared that joint exercises with S. Korea were going to be suspended (indefinitely?)
He didn't seem to get anything for that in return, unless that was just a reward for the North for just showing up at the table...still a mistake.
Clocker
07-06-2018, 12:08 PM
Paul Krugman: Chinese surplus smaller relative to GDP, and the U.S. is no longer at the zero lower bound with high unemployment, so demand drag from foreign surpluses less of an issue. Still, some case for shift in Chinese macro policy
Krugman needs to stick to his area of expertise, whatever that is. Foreign trade isn't it.
A US trade deficit is not an issue. We are doing just fine on trade because the trade deficit is offset by a capital surplus. Trump doesn't understand this either. Dollars that go out of the country for imports flow back in as investment.
As just one example, Volvo Cars just opened its new assembly plant in South Carolina, and already announced plans for expansion. For those not familiar with "foreign" car production here, like Trump, Volvo Cars is a subsidiary of Zhejiang Geely Holding Group, a Chinese conglomerate.
PaceAdvantage
07-06-2018, 12:11 PM
Was this the case...or was it simply that their candidate's opposition was simply too suspect to warrant any serious consideration? After all...whom did Obama and Trump really beat, on their way to the White House? With Obama's and Trump's "political experience"...where was the faith that they would "make things better, period" really hinging on? IMO...both Obama and Trump benefited by facing the weakest electoral opposition that we've seen in many years.Not sure how you can say this, when it was obvious (at least to me), that Trump was the only Republican candidate with a chance in hell of beating Hillary Clinton.
Clinton would have thrashed every other Republican candidate...it wouldn't have even been a question. Her victory would have been like what her supporters THOUGHT it was going to be against Trump, only way easier.
elysiantraveller
07-06-2018, 12:23 PM
Krugman needs to stick to his area of expertise, whatever that is. Foreign trade isn't it.
A US trade deficit is not an issue. We are doing just fine on trade because the trade deficit is offset by a capital surplus. Trump doesn't understand this either. Dollars that go out of the country for imports flow back in as investment.
As just one example, Volvo Cars just opened its new assembly plant in South Carolina, and already announced plans for expansion. For those not familiar with "foreign" car production here, like Trump, Volvo Cars is a subsidiary of Zhejiang Geely Holding Group, a Chinese conglomerate.
His points make a bit of sense but he should tread carefully since he would have fit in perfectly with 30's era protectionist policy.
"Team Keynes" loves to flip on this issue.
FantasticDan
07-06-2018, 12:28 PM
Not sure how you can say this, when it was obvious (at least to me), that Trump was the only Republican candidate with a chance in hell of beating Hillary Clinton.
Clinton would have thrashed every other Republican candidate...it wouldn't have even been a question. Her victory would have been like what her supporters THOUGHT it was going to be against Trump, only way easier.
You thought Hillary and the "Clinton Machine" would crush Obama, and you thought Hillary would crush Trump.
So spare us.
PaceAdvantage
07-06-2018, 12:31 PM
You thought Hillary and the "Clinton Machine" would crush Obama, and you thought Hillary would crush Trump.
So spare us.You're a liar I see.
Everything I posted that you quoted was posted by me prior to the Election.
I wrote MULTIPLE times that Trump was the only Republican candidate with a chance of beating Clinton.
That sir, is a hard fact.
FantasticDan
07-06-2018, 12:39 PM
You're a liar I see.
Everything I posted that you quoted was posted by me prior to the Election.
I wrote MULTIPLE times that Trump was the only Republican candidate with a chance of beating Clinton.
That sir, is a hard fact.
Sorry, all I remember are your posts expressing frustration at the reality that Trump was very likely to get his ass kicked. You may have thought he had that best chance vs Hilly, but you certainly didn't think he would win. And I'm not criticizing that, cuz other than a couple outliers, no one else did either.
Clocker
07-06-2018, 12:41 PM
You thought Hillary and the "Clinton Machine" would crush Obama, and you thought Hillary would crush Trump.
So spare us.
Bill said it best.
“You know the difference in Democrats and Republicans?” Bill Clinton said in a 2003 speech. “In every presidential election, Democrats want to fall in love. Republicans just fall in line.”
Try as they might, the Dems just could never fall in love with Hillary. In 2008, the Dems fell in love with Obama. In 2016, they had a loveless shotgun marriage with Hillary, and acted like it.
And in 2016, the alt-right (who are not Republicans) fell in love with The Donald, providing a big addition to the GOP base that no other candidate could have brought in.
FantasticDan
07-06-2018, 12:42 PM
And I'm not a "liar" about the Obama stuff, either..
All this Obama hype is just that -- HYPE. Like the 3yo that wins a meaningless stakes in record time at some meaningless racetrack early in the year.
No chance in hell that Obama is the nominee. No shot.
You can't defeat the Clinton war machine this time. It's never going to happen. Yeah, you may win a battle here or there, like in SC, but when it comes to the war, it was over before it began. Slam dunk, no doubt.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43499
Back on tariff topic now.
FantasticDan
07-06-2018, 12:43 PM
Bill said it best.
Try as they might, the Dems just could never fall in love with Hillary. In 2008, the Dems fell in love with Obama. In 2016, they had a loveless shotgun marriage with Hillary, and acted like it.
And in 2016, the alt-right (who are not Republicans) fell in love with The Donald, providing a big addition to the GOP base that no other candidate could have brought in.
Spot-on. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:
elysiantraveller
07-06-2018, 12:53 PM
Back on tariff topic now.
This should be good...
Clocker
07-06-2018, 05:12 PM
There would be plenty of criticisms of Trump here from his supporters if they didn't have to spend all their time responding to the non-stop, 24/7 criticisms and outrageousness from the Trump-haters on here.
In the immortal words of Joan Rivers, "Oh, please!"
The non-stop 24/7 posts from the true Trump-haters are far-left canned propaganda and cartoons that don't merit response. And most of the responses are from Trump True Believers posting canned Trump propaganda in reply.
One baby step above that are the responses like, "We tried everything else, now let's just join in on Trump's dream." Or Trump is playing n-dimensional chess and we just have to have faith in his genius. :rolleyes:
None of those people are ever going to say anything in criticism of The Donald. And they dismiss me and others as full time Trump-haters based on any criticism of anything Trump does.
thaskalos
07-06-2018, 05:28 PM
In the immortal words of Joan Rivers, "Oh, please!"
The non-stop 24/7 posts from the true Trump-haters are far-left canned propaganda and cartoons that don't merit response. And most of the responses are from Trump True Believers posting canned Trump propaganda in reply.
One baby step above that are the responses like, "We tried everything else, now let's just join in on Trump's dream." Or Trump is playing n-dimensional chess and we just have to have faith in his genius. :rolleyes:
None of those people are ever going to say anything in criticism of The Donald. And they dismiss me and others as full time Trump-haters based on any criticism of anything Trump does.
Or:
"Trump kept Hillary out of the White House...and that's good enough for me." :ThmbUp:
fast4522
07-06-2018, 07:08 PM
You're a liar I see.
Everything I posted that you quoted was posted by me prior to the Election.
I wrote MULTIPLE times that Trump was the only Republican candidate with a chance of beating Clinton.
That sir, is a hard fact.
Correct Mike, but also a fact that you were not the only one saying it. That is why some people are such bone heads. Fond memory's of sitting in my box seat at Rockingham Park watching the fellow in the box seat below mine yelling at a 14" television "come wire" then yelling Fu%^ing Stiff after getting nosed. It could just be a racetrack mentality at a racing BBS.
fast4522
07-06-2018, 07:14 PM
In the immortal words of Joan Rivers, "Oh, please!"
The non-stop 24/7 posts from the true Trump-haters are far-left canned propaganda and cartoons that don't merit response. And most of the responses are from Trump True Believers posting canned Trump propaganda in reply.
One baby step above that are the responses like, "We tried everything else, now let's just join in on Trump's dream." Or Trump is playing n-dimensional chess and we just have to have faith in his genius. :rolleyes:
None of those people are ever going to say anything in criticism of The Donald. And they dismiss me and others as full time Trump-haters based on any criticism of anything Trump does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN2C6ctpOhg
horses4courses
07-09-2018, 06:07 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhrfjcIX4AEA13e.jpg:small
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dhrk-CkXkAYAt0d.jpg:small
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhrlDpHXkAUjS7S.jpg:small
Track Collector
07-09-2018, 08:40 PM
Chamber of Commerce Declares War
Even the US Chamber of Commerce, which has become a reliably hyper-Republican operation over the past couple of decades under its firebrand conservative leader, Tom Donohue, has declared war on Trump.
It would not been surprising that the CoC has been at war with DJT since day one.
Trump favors bi-lateral trade agreements. LOTS of them.
The CoC has significantly more trouble continuing to cornering the markets and maximizing profits on all the World's commodities when many more players are involved.
The CoC is not our friend.
Pretty stupid thing to do.
Trump has the ARMY. CNC
CoC has old farts in sandles who sip gin rickeys and whine about the world.
And give themselves awards every year! :lol:
elysiantraveller
07-10-2018, 11:16 PM
Taxes on $200 billion in goods now being opened for review by the Administration.
U.S. ramps up trade row with China, threatens new tariffs (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china/u-s-ramps-up-trade-row-with-china-threatens-new-tariffs-idUSKBN1K1074?il=0)
PaceAdvantage
07-10-2018, 11:35 PM
Taxes on $200 billion in goods now being opened for review by the Administration.
U.S. ramps up trade row with China, threatens new tariffs (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china/u-s-ramps-up-trade-row-with-china-threatens-new-tariffs-idUSKBN1K1074?il=0)Good for Trump.
I'll revel in my ignorance, thank me very much.
It's about time someone started ****ing with these countries. I'll take some minor short term pain for something like this. Gladly.
And I could give two ****s about any articles you or clocker post up here.
Now go ahead and call me all the names in the book. Call me a redneck. A moron. An imbecile. Ignorant. Anything you wish. Have at it.
I'm glad this is happening. And if it weren't Trump, I'd be happy for whatever President was doing it...even Obama (not that he would ever have the balls to make such a move).
Maybe you weren't paying attention to Trump for the past 30 years, or at least during his campaign for President. If you did, you knew this was probably coming.
PaceAdvantage
07-10-2018, 11:37 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhrfjcIX4AEA13e.jpg:small
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dhrk-CkXkAYAt0d.jpg:small
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhrlDpHXkAUjS7S.jpg:smallWow, so her clothes are the only exemption. Trump's a helluva dad. Good for him!
Didn't you liberals make sure to put her out of business by now? I'm surprised she has anything left to sell, or anywhere to sell it. Hasn't she been blacklisted everywhere by now. Good ol' Democrat "WAR ON WOMEN" in action.
Good job guys!
fast4522
07-11-2018, 06:03 AM
Know just one thing, President Donald J. Trump loves his grandchildren. His intentions are for all grandchildren with love, if you have never done anything with your life that amounts to anything it is on you and not those who have yet to live life. You can piss and moan all that you want but in the end it will be like you were never here, SOL as you should be.
Thebart
07-12-2018, 06:53 PM
I am still amazed at the Trump Cult members who refuse to use common sense and logic to sift through his perpetual B.S. If Trump favors "lots of bilateral trade agreements" it would make sense to fill all the open vacancies in both the Commerce and Sate Departments with people who might negotiate such deals. Instead he does everything halfassed and thus gets very little done.
The reality is Trump only cares about the big guys. He talks tough about China and then makes one of those "bilateral" deals to save thousands of Chinese worker jobs at ZTE in China. Fear not though, Donnie's Dummies continue cheering because they just know he'll get around to saving their jobs. Yea, like those Carrier jobs he saved than he didn't.
The sad part of all this is Trump really is brilliant when it comes to self promotion and know how to manipulate the media. But, when it comes to understanding issues and policies he's a first rate ass. He can actually say one thing at the start of a sentence and then another at the end and keep everyone happy. But, if you listen closely that guy has no heart, conscience, and I doubt very much of a soul. It's all about self-promotion with Trump. Essentially the most disgusting individual to ever dwell in the White House. But then, that's not just Don the Con, that's the whole Trump klan.
Ocala Mike
07-12-2018, 07:04 PM
Essentially the most disgusting individual to ever dwell in the White House.
Now hold on just a minute! I'm pretty sure they discovered some dead rats in the basement after Canadian troops burned it down that time.
wisconsin
07-12-2018, 08:07 PM
I am still amazed at the Trump Cult members who refuse to use common sense and logic to sift through his perpetual B.S. If Trump favors "lots of bilateral trade agreements" it would make sense to fill all the open vacancies in both the Commerce and Sate Departments with people who might negotiate such deals. Instead he does everything halfassed and thus gets very little done.
The reality is Trump only cares about the big guys. He talks tough about China and then makes one of those "bilateral" deals to save thousands of Chinese worker jobs at ZTE in China. Fear not though, Donnie's Dummies continue cheering because they just know he'll get around to saving their jobs. Yea, like those Carrier jobs he saved than he didn't.
The sad part of all this is Trump really is brilliant when it comes to self promotion and know how to manipulate the media. But, when it comes to understanding issues and policies he's a first rate ass. He can actually say one thing at the start of a sentence and then another at the end and keep everyone happy. But, if you listen closely that guy has no heart, conscience, and I doubt very much of a soul. It's all about self-promotion with Trump. Essentially the most disgusting individual to ever dwell in the White House. But then, that's not just Don the Con, that's the whole Trump klan.
Let me send you a puppy and a box of crayons.
Clocker
07-12-2018, 08:08 PM
Know just one thing, President Donald J. Trump loves his grandchildren.
Wow, if that doesn't put an end to the Never Trump critics and win him the Nobel Peace Prize, then there is no hope for the planet. :headbanger:
fast4522
07-12-2018, 09:33 PM
Wow, if that doesn't put an end to the Never Trump critics and win him the Nobel Peace Prize, then there is no hope for the planet. :headbanger:
His vision will never please folks like yourself, nor should it be. Trump signs tariffs is the thread starter, there will never be a better time in history to correct trades issues like now. You prefer mice over men because it behooves you, I closely align with reckless posted views here without having to spend as much time typing them over.
Clocker
07-12-2018, 09:53 PM
there will never be a better time in history to correct trades issues like now.
The only trade issues that need to be corrected are over-regulation and tariffs. Trump claims to be a free trader, but he is not even close to being one. He is either lying or delusional. He is a protectionist, a nationalist, and a mercantilist.
From the great economist Walter Williams:
Let's delve a bit into the politics of trade tariffs. Whom do we see spending the most resources lobbying for tariffs on foreign steel and aluminum? Is it American users of steel and aluminum, such as Harley-Davidson and John Deere? Or is it United States Steel Corp. and Alcoa? Of course it's U.S. Steel and Alcoa. They benefit from tariffs by being able to sell their products at higher prices. Harley-Davidson and John Deere lose by having to pay higher prices for their inputs, steel and aluminum, and their customers lose by having to pay higher product prices. That's called cronyism. Trump protects his fat cat buddies at the expense of the American consumer.
Williams goes on to explain the real trade issues that need to be corrected:
There's a lot of nonsense talk about international trade, which some define as one country's trading with another. When an American purchases a Mercedes, it does not represent the U.S. Congress' trading with the German Bundestag. It represents an American citizen's engaging in peaceable, voluntary exchange, through intermediaries, with a German auto producer. When voluntary exchange occurs, it means that both parties are better off in their own estimation -- not Trump's estimation or General Motors' estimation. I'd like to hear the moral case for third-party interference with such an exchange.In short, we would all be better off if Trump and his cronies kept their noses our of our wallets.
If anyone can objectively respond to the above without blindly spouting slogans like MAGA, it would be a welcome change.
https://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2018/07/11/shooting-ourselves-in-the-foot-n2498527
fast4522
07-12-2018, 09:59 PM
Screw China, let them bleed out. The whole thing is just a consumption tax, you want that new BMW pay the tax bro. The small guy could give a shit about you or your so called wallet. We are in perfect position to even old scores, they will all fold like cheep cigar boxes.
Clocker
07-12-2018, 10:18 PM
Screw China, let them bleed out. The whole thing is just a consumption tax, you want that new BMW pay the tax bro. The small guy could give a shit about you or your so called wallet. We are in perfect position to even old scores, they will all fold like cheep cigar boxes.
I was hoping for "objective". I would have been content with "rational". :rolleyes:
P.S. BMWs are now made in America. But don't sweat it, The Donald didn't know that either. :p
fast4522
07-12-2018, 10:24 PM
I was hoping for "objective". I would have been content with "rational". :rolleyes:
P.S. BMWs are now made in America. But don't sweat it, The Donald didn't know that either. :p
Building 20% of the sold product will not let them escape the tariff, not that I know the real percentage right?
elysiantraveller
07-13-2018, 12:08 AM
Building 20% of the sold product will not let them escape the tariff, not that I know the real percentage right?
So tariffs will hurt the consumer who wants to buy a BMW and the American factory worker in South Carolina helping to build it?
https://i.imgflip.com/kroqr.jpg
fast4522
07-13-2018, 12:23 AM
I think in the end we will see what the final shape will be, until then it is all moving policy.
What you perceive along the way is tainted with your love of Trump.:lol:
How we get to equitariff will be a long road, if some want access to our economy they should expect to be treated exactly as they do to our access to their economy. We are in a position right now to crush anyone who is not reciprocal in trade with us, what you or I want means shit.
thaskalos
07-13-2018, 12:29 AM
Good for Trump.
I'll revel in my ignorance, thank me very much.
It's about time someone started ****ing with these countries. I'll take some minor short term pain for something like this. Gladly.
And I could give two ****s about any articles you or clocker post up here.
Now go ahead and call me all the names in the book. Call me a redneck. A moron. An imbecile. Ignorant. Anything you wish. Have at it.
I'm glad this is happening. And if it weren't Trump, I'd be happy for whatever President was doing it...even Obama (not that he would ever have the balls to make such a move).
Maybe you weren't paying attention to Trump for the past 30 years, or at least during his campaign for President. If you did, you knew this was probably coming.
Boy...how things have changed around here. In the pre-Trump days, when Clocker was trashing the democrats at every opportunity...he was one of the most popular posters in this place. But now...he has been relegated to the same camp as the "lowlifes" that he used to rail against. The power of the mighty "Donald" knows no limits. :ThmbUp:
Clocker
07-13-2018, 12:54 AM
Good for Trump.
I'll revel in my ignorance, thank me very much.
It's about time someone started ****ing with these countries. I'll take some minor short term pain for something like this. Gladly.
And I could give two ****s about any articles you or clocker post up here.
The articles I post here show that Trump's trade policies are a YUGE benefit to major corporations like the American steel industry at the expense of American consumers.
You may take the "short term pain", assuming without evidence and reasoning that it is short term, but what about the average American working stiff looking at a 10-15% increase in his cost of living? And that number comes from the Trump folk, so it might be a tad low.
The facts are that Trump is an economic illiterate, and his ideas are total nonsense, in the opinion of respected economists on both sides of the aisle. That is what my posts show, and what no Trumpette has even attempted to refute. This is not a partisan issue. Trump is dead wrong about the impact of tariffs on Americans. And the only response to facts and history and empirical evidence showing Trump is totally ignorant on the subject is MAGA and similar mindless slogans.
newtothegame
07-13-2018, 01:41 AM
The articles I post here show that Trump's trade policies are a YUGE benefit to major corporations like the American steel industry at the expense of American consumers.
You may take the "short term pain", assuming without evidence and reasoning that it is short term, but what about the average American working stiff looking at a 10-15% increase in his cost of living? And that number comes from the Trump folk, so it might be a tad low.
The facts are that Trump is an economic illiterate, and his ideas are total nonsense, in the opinion of respected economists on both sides of the aisle. That is what my posts show, and what no Trumpette has even attempted to refute. This is not a partisan issue. Trump is dead wrong about the impact of tariffs on Americans. And the only response to facts and history and empirical evidence showing Trump is totally ignorant on the subject is MAGA and similar mindless slogans.
So here's a thought clocker.....
Would you agree that most everyone thinks Trump comes out of left field most of the time and is unpredictable??
I'll assume your answer is yes.....
With that being said, do you think its even in the realm of possibility to just get China, the EU, etc etc to the table on trade deals?
If nothing else, Trump is playing the hand he feels he was dealt. He may lose out, but...and here's the kicker...But he may obtain a little better deal in the long run.
You all have said how tarrifs hurt us...we get it!!
But who do you think is being hurt more at this point? Im looking at news out of China and teir stock market and since this "trade war" has started, they are getting their asses kicked!!!! Someone will have to blink first...…
Now you may say Trump has blinked by allowing some measure of leeway....
Lets see it play out.
incoming
07-13-2018, 03:07 AM
I view the economy as an entity that is always changing. A new source of energy could be discovered tomorrow and turn everything on its head. There has been three changes in recent history that has changed the whole dynamic of our economy. Huge tax cuts for businesses and consumers. Many old regulations have been abolished and there are many more to come. We are on the verge of becoming a big energy exporter instead of a consumer. Any one of these will be a big game changer and would render your analyze obsolete.
The President has chosen this time to renegotiate all old trade agreements while we have all of the leverage. I trust him to put America behind God and family and set an example for the world to follow. I am going to forecast a balanced budget will be attainable in our near future. I will close with....MAGA...MEGA....MEGA.....again...again and again.
P.S. You can stick your political correctness where the sun never shines. :p
Clocker
07-15-2018, 10:16 AM
Trump's first tariffs directly on consumer goods have resulted in a 16.4% increase in washing machine prices in 3 months.
https://fee.org/articles/washing-machine-tariffs-started-the-trade-war-result-largest-ever-three-month-increase-in-washing-machine-prices/
fast4522
07-15-2018, 10:36 AM
You should start beating the drum about solar panels, does California have a law kicking in mandating them. Get it out of you system so we can dismiss you.
tucker6
07-15-2018, 11:17 AM
Trump's first tariffs directly on consumer goods have resulted in a 16.4% increase in washing machine prices in 3 months.
https://fee.org/articles/washing-machine-tariffs-started-the-trade-war-result-largest-ever-three-month-increase-in-washing-machine-prices/
What does that have to do with the price of coffee? Literally?
What is the price increase for those who do not need a washer/dryer/
Clocker
07-15-2018, 05:27 PM
What does that have to do with the price of coffee? Literally?
What is the price increase for those who do not need a washer/dryer/
Or the price increase for anyone needing a solar panel? Or anything made out of lumber? Or anything made out of steel or aluminum? Prices for all of those things, even from American companies, have gone up since the tariffs were imposed.
Why are the Trump fans in denial about the impact of tariffs on consumers? It has happened every time any tariff was imposed on any import. Why do some people think this time will be different?
Any idea of the imported products that are next in line for Trump Tariffs?
PaceAdvantage
07-15-2018, 06:27 PM
From HuffPo no less...I found this article interesting...and since everyone is clamoring for me to post links and articles, here is one (granted it's a few months old...sorry):
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-trade-war-globalization_us_5a99dacfe4b089ec353a4c95
It’s messy, unpredictable and unlikely to generate much international goodwill. But the truth is, Trump’s clumsy volley can’t start a trade war. Despite its blunt imprecision, a tariff on steel and aluminum just doesn’t affect very much commerce. More importantly, the world is already living through a trade war. It’s been raging since the 1990s.
Clocker
07-15-2018, 08:01 PM
From HuffPo no less...I found this article interesting...and since everyone is clamoring for me to post links and articles, here is one (granted it's a few months old...sorry):
"Trump’s clumsy volley can’t start a trade war."
Three things, aside from the weird idea of using HuffPo as a source of information about any thing: One, that was written long before Trump imposed the tariffs.
Two: Whether or not it starts a trade war is not relevant to American consumers. What no one here seems to understand that a tariff on any import from any country is a tax on American consumers. Who cares if the other country is so stupid as to respond by putting a commensurate tax on its own citizens?
Three: The tariffs started (escalated) a trade war.
From Forbes, after the tariffs were imposed:
The effects on our economy will generally be bad. U.S. Steel climbed 3%, but the Dow fell about 200 points on the fears of a sustained trade war. Which is why Republicans on Capitol Hill are fuming. Senator Ben Sasse (R-NE) said 'This is dumb’. Congressman Kevin Brady (R-TX) added, ‘These tariffs are hitting the wrong target.’ Senator Mike Lee (R-UT) and Senator Pat Toomey (R-PA) are sponsoring a Bill ‘to reign in the executive branch’s power to impose unilateral tax increases like these.’
Moreover, aluminum and steel are the two most important metals in modern society. And we import more steel and aluminum from Canada, our closest ally in history, than from anyone else. The next three biggest suppliers are also allies – Brazil, South Korea and Mexico. China, the original target of Trump’s ire, only supplies 3% of our steel.
Mexico said it will retaliate with similar penalties on American lamps, pork, fruit, cheese and flat steel. Canada announced that tariffs on $12.8 billion in U.S. exports will start in July. Europe set retaliatory tariffs - 25% on American products such as motorcycles, denim, cigarettes, peanut butter, whiskey, orange and cranberry juice.
This seemingly random list of products is not so random. They are targeted to hit Trump’s base in states like Wisconsin and Kentucky, the home states of the Republican leadership including House Speaker Paul Ryan and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnel.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2018/06/02/the-effects-of-trumps-steel-tariffs-on-red-state-energy/#16379aa54b88
thaskalos
07-15-2018, 08:39 PM
Three things, aside from the weird idea of using HuffPo as a source of information about any thing: One, that was written long before Trump imposed the tariffs.
Two: Whether or not it starts a trade war is not relevant to American consumers. What no one here seems to understand that a tariff on any import from any country is a tax on American consumers. Who cares if the other country is so stupid as to respond by putting a commensurate tax on its own citizens?
Three: The tariffs started (escalated) a trade war.
From Forbes, after the tariffs were imposed:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2018/06/02/the-effects-of-trumps-steel-tariffs-on-red-state-energy/#16379aa54b88
I think it's YOU who doesn't understand. We KNOW that these tariffs will end up hurting the American consumer...but the whole point is that they will hurt the consumers of the OTHER countries even more than they will hurts us. Aren't you willing to go through some pain...while resting in the knowledge that the "other side" hurts even more than YOU do?
Must I explain EVERYTHING to you? :rant:
fast4522
07-15-2018, 08:49 PM
Here is the thing, timing is everything. Slowing down some areas and calling it tariffs is opportunistic on several fronts. As another poster accurately mentioned getting others to the table to negotiate can only yield to the plus for us. Our infrastructure needs serious upgrades, a shortage of long haul truckers is also problematic. Doing infrastructure first would have had the greatest positive for trade but politically would have given too much to the left without any leverage for the administration for the next battle politically for policy objectives.
fast4522
07-15-2018, 09:06 PM
I think it's YOU who doesn't understand. We KNOW that these tariffs will end up hurting the American consumer...but the whole point is that they will hurt the consumers of the OTHER countries even more than they will hurts us. Aren't you willing to go through some pain...while resting in the knowledge that the "other side" hurts even more than YOU do?
Must I explain EVERYTHING to you? :rant:
Interesting post thaskalos, for instance soy bean exports to China are a retaliatory move by China on us, until farmers plant in place things we currently have shortages for like the simple carrot. Down in Louisiana we have port problems forcing shipping barges to come into port at less than 50% because of a mud problem that has to be drudged just to keep these lanes open. So growing pains associated with trade need to be resolved and tariffs are just some things being done, if orchestrated in a fashion to accommodate more than tariffs it become a double win.
Clocker
07-15-2018, 09:12 PM
...but the whole point is that they will hurt the consumers of the OTHER countries even more than they will hurts us.
How, pray tell?
thaskalos
07-15-2018, 09:18 PM
So here's a thought clocker.....
Would you agree that most everyone thinks Trump comes out of left field most of the time and is unpredictable??
I'll assume your answer is yes.....
With that being said, do you think its even in the realm of possibility to just get China, the EU, etc etc to the table on trade deals?
If nothing else, Trump is playing the hand he feels he was dealt. He may lose out, but...and here's the kicker...But he may obtain a little better deal in the long run.
You all have said how tarrifs hurt us...we get it!!
But who do you think is being hurt more at this point? Im looking at news out of China and teir stock market and since this "trade war" has started, they are getting their asses kicked!!!! Someone will have to blink first...…
Now you may say Trump has blinked by allowing some measure of leeway....
Lets see it play out.
Here! :)
elysiantraveller
07-15-2018, 09:35 PM
I think it's YOU who doesn't understand. We KNOW that these tariffs will end up hurting the American consumer...but the whole point is that they will hurt the consumers of the OTHER countries even more than they will hurts us. Aren't you willing to go through some pain...while resting in the knowledge that the "other side" hurts even more than YOU do?
Must I explain EVERYTHING to you? :rant:
Veiled sarcasm?
thaskalos
07-15-2018, 09:54 PM
Veiled sarcasm?
If it isn't veiled...how could it be considered "sarcasm"? :headbanger:
incoming
07-16-2018, 02:23 AM
Trump's first tariffs directly on consumer goods have resulted in a 16.4% increase in washing machine prices in 3 months.
https://fee.org/articles/washing-machine-tariffs-started-the-trade-war-result-largest-ever-three-month-increase-in-washing-machine-prices/
Finally, washing machine repairmen have plenty of work. All of that money that went to S. Korea will stay in America. I checked for sales on washing machines.....at Sears and Best Buys they are selling them at a 50% reduction.
The President trade negotiations is starting to work....he has them on their heels and starting to walk them back. Just wait till he gets them on the ropes.
US Steel added 500 workers this year, they also refired a old blast furnace that hasn't been used in years. It is rumored that they plan to open additional plants . Small steel plants are starting to reopen, one just reopened in S. Car. this month. Probably has something to do with the $1.5 trillion defense budget. WHOOPS China want be getting that money. Also rumored, there has been many advances made in solar panel manufacturing. Plants are being retooled and upgraded to be reopened....thank you :puke: California. Remember Solindra. Again, less money going to China and staying in America.
P.S. Down goes....political correctness :jump::jump:
https://www.afp.com/sites/default/files/nfs/diff-intra/english/shared/top/afbd33397d0c3d5f93173a97baa52eb6b94bddb1.jpg
As the China-US trade war rages, a factory set amid corn and mulberry fields in central China stitches together US and “Trump 2020” flags — and business is good.
The US and China have slapped tariffs on billions of dollars worth of each other’s goods, but there is little evidence of the dispute at the Jiahao Flag Company in Anhui province.
AFP / –American-themed flags remain among the factory’s bestsellers, despite current China-US trade tensions
Trump has long railed against Chinese imports, pushed a “buy American” ethos, and launched the trade confrontation this year to punish China for what he considers predatory trade policies.
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/07/trade-war-rages-trump-flags-fly-china-factory/
Clocker
07-16-2018, 08:47 AM
US Steel added 500 workers this year, they also refired a old blast furnace that hasn't been used in years. It is rumored that they plan to open additional plants . Small steel plants are starting to reopen, one just reopened in S. Car. this month.
They are reopening because steel prices are going up and those plants can now operate at a profit.
None of what you said changes the facts. Tariffs are increasing the costs of goods to American consumers. Steel tariffs are a great deal for the steel industry and the 140,000 people it employs. They hurt the companies that use steel as an input and the 5 million people they employ and the American consumers that buy those products. As more and more tariffs are imposed, more and more companies and consumers are hit with higher prices. A few little stories about washing machines on sale or 500 steel workers going to work doesn't change that.
But the Trumpsters refuse to face those facts. Trump's own people said that his tariffs would increase the cost of living for the average American by 10-15%. Is that an acceptable cost for reopening a few steel plants?
PaceAdvantage
07-16-2018, 09:46 AM
If these tariffs and this "Trade War" is so disastrous, how come the markets aren't reflecting this yet?
Or could it be these price increases you keep hammering that the US consumer is going to suffer through will amount to a whole lotta nothing?
elysiantraveller
07-16-2018, 09:50 AM
If these tariffs and this "Trade War" is so disastrous, how come the markets aren't reflecting this yet?
Or could it be these price increases you keep hammering that the US consumer is going to suffer through will amount to a whole lotta nothing?
The market hasn't moved since Trump flouted it at the SOTU. Profits are way up yet hiring is fairly static and wages are flat...
All indicators are of a rock solid economy but the benefits of that aren't being passed along to workers... why is that?
Companies are back to sitting on their dollars just like they did under Obama... then it was taxes... now its trade.
Here is an example:
Tariff and trade talk is slowing investments in Alabama, Canfield says (https://www.al.com/business/index.ssf/2018/07/tariff_and_trade_talk_is_slowi.html)
"Uncertainty equates to risk, and risk is a very chilling factor when it comes to investing your money," Canfield told Bloomberg. "You either invest it somewhere else or you hold on to it until the situation becomes more certain."
The old logic of the right-wing was that the government should get out of the way of the economy... this is just micromanaging in a different way...
Clocker
07-16-2018, 10:18 AM
If these tariffs and this "Trade War" is so disastrous, how come the markets aren't reflecting this yet?
"Stocks Slammed on Latest Trump Tariff Fears"
https://www.thestreet.com/markets/stocks-fall-as-wall-street-weighs-new-trade-threats-from-trump-14632040
Trump's trade policies are based on the assumption that tariffs will increase consumer prices and thus make domestic products more competitive with imports. If the tariffs do what Trumps wants, consumer prices will rise. If prices don't increase, then Trump's tariffs are a failure and consumers will continue to buy imported goods.
We have seen some indication that prices are increasing, but from what Trump is saying, there are still a lot more tariffs to come. There is certainly no evidence that the tariffs already in place are of benefit to the majority of companies or consumers.
I don't follow the market, but it appears that they are mostly waiting to see which direction things go. Stocks of companies that will be helped by tariffs have gone up, like steel companies.
thaskalos
07-16-2018, 12:51 PM
If these tariffs and this "Trade War" is so disastrous, how come the markets aren't reflecting this yet?
Or could it be these price increases you keep hammering that the US consumer is going to suffer through will amount to a whole lotta nothing?
The stock prices were on a perpetual rise during the Obama years...even though many called his tenure a "disastrous presidency". Seeing this...how can we actually believe that the stock market always reflects the economic concerns of a country?
tucker6
07-16-2018, 01:58 PM
..how can we actually believe that the stock market always reflects the economic concerns of a country?
The market direction has little to do with current conditions, as they’ve already been built into the market.
thaskalos
07-16-2018, 02:12 PM
The market direction has little to do with current conditions, as they’ve already been built into the market.
Hold on a minute here. If I relied on this website for all my economic news...then I would have come to the conclusion that Obama was DISASTROUS for the economy of this country. And yet...the stock market was on a perpetual rise throughout his presidency. When did Obama's disastrous "conditions" get 'built into the market'?
horses4courses
07-16-2018, 02:20 PM
Hold on a minute here. If I relied on this website for all my economic news...then I would have come to the conclusion that Obama was DISASTROUS for the economy of this country. And yet...the stock market was on a perpetual rise throughout his presidency. When did Obama's disastrous "conditions" get 'built into the market'?
This is the type of question that is unpopular and ignored around here.
Do not expect an answer from most regulars containing any truth.
They believe he should be living in Kenya in exile. :sleeping:
elysiantraveller
07-16-2018, 02:29 PM
Hold on a minute here. If I relied on this website for all my economic news...then I would have come to the conclusion that Obama was DISASTROUS for the economy of this country. And yet...the stock market was on a perpetual rise throughout his presidency. When did Obama's disastrous "conditions" get 'built into the market'?
The correct response would be that Obamacare, regulation, and uncertainty over tax rates hung over the economy like an albatross. We had solid growth but it could have been significantly better and the recovery was pretty tepid.
That would be the free-market answer... now let Trump supporters try and explain how Tariffs aren't just more of the same in terms of government interference in the economy. Government is still telling you what you should and shouldn't buy. Still meddling in the market. Still enacting new taxes on Americans...
Should be good...
reckless
07-16-2018, 03:51 PM
"Stocks Slammed on Latest Trump Tariff Fears"
https://www.thestreet.com/markets/stocks-fall-as-wall-street-weighs-new-trade-threats-from-trump-14632040
Trump's trade policies are based on the assumption that tariffs will increase consumer prices and thus make domestic products more competitive with imports. If the tariffs do what Trumps wants, consumer prices will rise. If prices don't increase, then Trump's tariffs are a failure and consumers will continue to buy imported goods.
We have seen some indication that prices are increasing, but from what Trump is saying, there are still a lot more tariffs to come. There is certainly no evidence that the tariffs already in place are of benefit to the majority of companies or consumers.
I don't follow the market, but it appears that they are mostly waiting to see which direction things go. Stocks of companies that will be helped by tariffs have gone up, like steel companies.
No, not really but... so what, right?
Trump announced his presidency in July 2015. He said on that day, and just about every day since right up to Nov. 2016 that he will return manufacturing jobs to the country and incorporate tariffs to reverse the huge trade deficits that had grown exponentially since 'free' trade treaties such as NAFTA were signed. The carnage to the US manufacturing industry and loss of jobs grew on an annual basis since the late 1970s and Trump said it this has to stop.
Trump promised to reverse all this. He campaigned on this issue. The whole country, plus the investing and finance industry knew what Trump's view and intentions were per trade deals and trade deficits. The huge run-up in equity prices since The Trump Era began is undeniable despite the best efforts of the Trump bashers.
A week before the Election of 2016 the Dow Jones closed at about 17,800.
Today, July 13, 2018, the DJIA is now at 25,050 or so as I type this.
So all those on here that want to believe that the Trump 'tariffs' will kill both the economy and the stock market are simply kidding themselves.
tucker6
07-16-2018, 04:44 PM
Hold on a minute here. If I relied on this website for all my economic news...then I would have come to the conclusion that Obama was DISASTROUS for the economy of this country. And yet...the stock market was on a perpetual rise throughout his presidency. When did Obama's disastrous "conditions" get 'built into the market'?
Obama’s presidency didn’t kill the economy, but it didn’t do it any favors either. The real poison was in the increased regulations that would have acted to restrain the economy further than it now will since Trump loosened them again. There was good reason for stocks to rise under Obama but it could have been much better imo.
horses4courses
07-17-2018, 10:27 AM
EU and Japan sign trade agreement - biggest ever for EU.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/07/17/eu-japan-free-trade-agreement/791125002/
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...
...here I am, stuck in the middle with you! :eek::D
Clocker
07-21-2018, 10:41 AM
Finally, washing machine repairmen have plenty of work.
Correct.
Meanwhile, appliance-repair businesses are making a killing as consumers put off the purchase of new appliances in favor of the expensive (but relatively cheaper) repairs they wouldn't have purchased in a not-so-long-ago pre-tariff past. Poor protect-me-but-not-thee Whirlpool; this sad turn of events has forced the company to reconsider many of its hopes for expansion.
With imports down, the company planned to add workers at its washer plant in expectation of a new rush of tariff-induced washer sales. Not so fast. Thanks to the many tariffs applied to over $90 billion of imports from China and other places (including inputs and raw materials like steel), Whirlpool not only didn't add 1,300 workers to its Clyde factory in Ohio; it has actually reduced its production. It's therefore unsurprising that Whirlpool's share price is down 15 percent since the washer tariffs were put in place. That's in spite of the massive cut in the corporate income tax rate from 35 to 21 percent and other tax cuts.
https://www.creators.com/read/veronique-de-rugy/07/18/what-goes-around-comes-around-tariffs-stuck-on-the-spin-cycle
Clocker
07-22-2018, 09:28 PM
Looks like Trump is doing some things to open up free trade in the world.
President Trump called the European Union a trading “foe” last week, and on Tuesday European leaders replied by signing an economic partnership with Japan that will eliminate almost all tariffs on bilateral goods. The negotiations had dragged on for years, but Mr. Trump’s protectionism pushed both sides to reach a deal that shows how trade liberalization will increasingly bypass the U.S.
The removal of Japanese quotas and duties on European farm products will hurt American hog farmers, who currently enjoy a strong market position in Japan. EU processed-food exports are expected to grow by as much as 180%.
The biggest impact will be in manufacturing industries dear to Mr. Trump’s heart. In addition to removing tariffs, the deal will harmonize standards and remove nontariff barriers. As the U.S. raises duties on imported raw materials and components, its attractiveness as a manufacturing base will fall and supply chains will cut out American suppliers.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/trading-past-america-1531868982
elysiantraveller
07-24-2018, 12:18 PM
Pro Tip: It isn't socialism if it involves farmers... ;)
Politico: Trump to announce trade aid for farmers (https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/24/trump-trade-aid-for-farmers-737108)
The administration's plan will use two commodity support programs in the farm bill, as well as the Agriculture Department’s broad authority to stabilize the agricultural economy during times of turmoil.
The plan has been in the works for months. It seeks to ensure U.S. farmers and ranchers — a key constituency for President Donald Trump and Republicans — don’t bear the brunt of an escalating trade fight with China, the European Union and other major economies as the administration pursues an aggressive course to rebalance America's trade relationships.
https://media.makeameme.org/created/bureaucracy-bureaucracy-everywhere-14xsrb.jpg
fast4522
07-24-2018, 10:39 PM
Your correct, our farmers are a national security interest. When things go sideways and food is a problem for the world these United States will be in good shape. We have no obligation to share, and things will go sideways. Getting rid of that inheritance tax will prevent the Bilderburg Group from snapping up all the good farmland in this country forcing family's to sell to the hidden folks in central banks.
Shit I though you 86's yourself, I go away for a few days and all shit falls in.
elysiantraveller
07-24-2018, 11:45 PM
Your correct, our farmers are a national security interest. When things go sideways and food is a problem for the world these United States will be in good shape. We have no obligation to share, and things will go sideways. Getting rid of that inheritance tax will prevent the Bilderburg Group from snapping up all the good farmland in this country forcing family's to sell to the hidden folks in central banks.
Shit I though you 86's yourself, I go away for a few days and all shit falls in.
According to Trump so are our workers so...?
reckless
07-25-2018, 03:46 PM
To all you disingenuous Trump haters who were worried to high heaven for the poor soybean farmers: the EU just blinked and agreed to buy more soybeans and other US industrial products, thus narrowing the huge trade deficit that the 'free' trade geniuses have claimed is good for the US economy.
To all you disingenuous Trump hatersActually, I am a genuine Trump hater :cool:
woodtoo
07-25-2018, 04:37 PM
Yup a real genuine hater. Have a nice day.:rant:
Actually, I am a genuine Trump hater :cool:
NO SOYBEANS for YOU!!!
elysiantraveller
07-25-2018, 06:39 PM
To all you disingenuous Trump haters who were worried to high heaven for the poor soybean farmers: the EU just blinked and agreed to buy more soybeans and other US industrial products, thus narrowing the huge trade deficit that the 'free' trade geniuses have claimed is good for the US economy.
Trump essentially agreed to TPP's sister deal the TTiP.
In case you were wondering... think NAFTA... but EVERYWHERE! :pound:
classhandicapper
07-25-2018, 08:07 PM
Wait, you mean playing hardball and putting everyone in an accelerating lose-lose position made everyone come to the table and try to work out a solution that was beneficial to the instigator before things got out of hand?
Too bad we've had morons and fear mongers in charge for 30+ years that just let everyone take advantage of us to whatever extreme they wanted.
Trade is good, tariffs are bad, but bad trade deals are a disaster.
Mutually beneficial improving deals are good.
elysiantraveller
07-25-2018, 08:41 PM
Wait, you mean playing hardball and putting everyone in an accelerating lose-lose position made everyone come to the table and try to work out a solution that was beneficial to the instigator before things got out of hand?
Too bad we've had morons and fear mongers in charge for 30+ years that just let everyone take advantage of us to whatever extreme they wanted.
Trade is good, tariffs are bad, but bad trade deals are a disaster.
Mutually beneficial improving deals are good.
Nonsense and you should know better for the cop out answer.
You've rattled against free trade nonstop in here but now that Trump proposes it... forget about the deficits... this is great! #MAGA.
This deal has been in the works since 2011. It's called TTiP. It's just like TPP. It calls for no duties across 97% of goods.
Europe has always been open to it until negotiations ceased when Trump was elected.
Think NAFTA for Europe.
This just more manufacturing a problem then fixing it and declaring victory. You guys love this shit.
European Council President back in March...
“His proposal to impose tariffs on European steel and aluminum is a bad sign for transatlantic relations,” Tusk said at a news conference with Sipilä. “Let me be clear: Instead of risking a trade war, which he seems eager to wage, we should be aiming for greater cooperation. When the president says he is unhappy about too many barriers and tariffs between the EU and the U.S., I can understand him. We are not happy either. That is the reason why a few years ago we started trade negotiations with the U.S. We should go back to these talks now.”
You guys make it sound like this is some YUGE victory... this was actually Trump dropping the issue.
elysiantraveller
07-25-2018, 09:07 PM
...
Earlier... same thread...
I think free trade has been a huge negative for US workers, enriched foreigners, put trillions of dollars of US bonds in foreign hands that gives them influence over our fiscal and monetary policy (they can and have threatened to dump them), yielded large benefits to already rich investors, and small benefits to all consumers.
classhandicapper
07-25-2018, 10:54 PM
Earlier... same thread...
Dude, sorry, but you appear to be suffering or Trump Derangement Syndrome.
I still agree with everything you quoted from me above.
I've said from day one that tariffs are a bad idea, but the goal of the Trump tariffs was only to get people to the negotiating table because no one was going to give up an advantageous trade position out of the goodness of their heart. Only liberals believe in fairly tales like that. It was all talk.
Now we are getting some action. He's getting them to the table making actual agreements instead of blowing smoke up people asses. That's alone is a greater success than all the recent presidents before him that sold us out to Wall St and dim witted globalists.
I still think totally free trade can't work well because countries still have vastly different regulations, tax structures, labor laws, and labor costs. They erect barriers, manipulate currencies (the monetary system is fvcked up) etc... Therefore there will inevitably be huge transfers of jobs and wealth (as there has been for the last 30+ years). It's not until everyone is in a similar position that it can start working as the theory suggests. "Western" Europe is in pretty much the same position as the US. Free trade with most of "western" Europe should work reasonably well unless there are tariffs, barriers etc.. The problem is that it may still be another 50 years until many other places are in that position and we are still getting gutted in the meantime.
However, to the extent you can renegotiate, remove other country's tariffs and barriers, you are improving your position and winning the deal.
I never expected the US was going to undo 30+ years of being dumber than a rock in 6 months of negotiating. That wouldn't even be smart. Neither side could adjust quickly enough to the reversal. It would be too disruptive. However, we are clearly on the right track now. We are trying to get countries to remove their unfair tariffs, barriers, etc.. by threatening them with tariffs. And since we are currently in the "deficit" position, they have more to lose in our market than we do in theirs. We just have to stand strong and take the short term hits from their retaliation until their pain so exceeds our own, they have to come to the table because it makes sense for everyone. If we weaken because economic pinheads, liberals, and Trump derangement sufferers can't stand a little short term pain for long term gain, then we'll blow our best chance in several decades to get on a healthier track in terms of trade. They'll keep talking a good game and continue with the rape and pillage because fairy tales only exist in the minds of liberals and TDS sufferers.
elysiantraveller
07-25-2018, 10:57 PM
Dude, sorry, but you appear to be suffering or Trump Derangement Syndrome.
I still agree with everything you quoted from me above.
I've said from day one that tariffs are a bad idea, but the goal of the Trump tariffs was only to get people to the negotiating table because no one was going to give up an advantageous trade position out of the goodness of their heart. Only liberals believe in fairly tales like that.
He's getting them to the table. That's alone is a greater success than all the recent presidents before him that sold us out to Wall St and dim witted globalists.
I still think totally free trade can't work well because countries still have vastly different regulations, tax structures, labor laws, and labor costs. They erect barriers, manipulate currencies (the monetary system is fvcked up) etc... Therefore there will inevitably be huge transfers of jobs and wealth (as there has been for the last 30+ years). It's not until everyone is in a similar position that it can start working as the theory suggests. The problem is that that may still be another 50 years away and we are getting gutted in the meantime.
However, to the extent you can renegotiate, remove other country's tariffs and barriers, you are improving your position and winning the deal.
I never expected the US was going to undo 30+ years of being dumber than a rock in 6 months of negotiating. That wouldn't even be smart. Neither side could adjust quickly enough to the reversal. It would be too disruptive. However, we are clearly on the right track now. We are trying to get countries to remove their unfair tariffs, barriers, etc.. by threatening them with tariffs. And since we are currently in the "deficit" position, they have more to lose in our market than we do in theirs. We just have to stand strong and take the short term hits from their retaliation until their pain so exceeds our own, they have to come to the table because it makes sense for everyone. If we weaken because economic pinheads, liberals, and Trump derangement sufferers can't stand a little short term pain for long term gain, then we'll blow our best chance in several decades to get on a healthier track for the country in trade.
So... the victory of getting them to the table was the issue?
They were already willing to go to the table. It's been cited a bunch in this thread.
Again this is manufacturing a problem then magically fixing it and claiming victory.
I quoted Tusk above... from March... they were more than willing.
You ignore that.
Free trade now is good... Clocker and I have been saying this for about 50 pages now.
chadk66
07-25-2018, 10:59 PM
Dude, sorry, but you appear to be suffering or Trump Derangement Syndrome.
I still agree with everything you quoted from me above.
I've said from day one that tariffs are a bad idea, but the goal of the Trump tariffs was only to get people to the negotiating table because no one was going to give up an advantageous trade position out of the goodness of their heart. Only liberals believe in fairly tales like that.
He's getting them to the table. That's alone is a greater success than all the recent presidents before him that sold us out to Wall St and dim witted globalists.
I still think totally free trade can't work well because countries still have vastly different regulations, tax structures, labor laws, and labor costs. They erect barriers, manipulate currencies (the monetary system is fvcked up) etc... Therefore there will inevitably be huge transfers of jobs and wealth (as there has been for the last 30+ years). It's not until everyone is in a similar position that it can start working as the theory suggests. "Western" Europe in pretty much in the same position as the US. Free trade with most of "western" Europe should work reasonably well unless there are tariffs, barriers etc.. The problem is that it may still be another 50 years until many other places are in that position and we are still getting gutted in the meantime.
However, to the extent you can renegotiate, remove other country's tariffs and barriers, you are improving your position and winning the deal.
I never expected the US was going to undo 30+ years of being dumber than a rock in 6 months of negotiating. That wouldn't even be smart. Neither side could adjust quickly enough to the reversal. It would be too disruptive. However, we are clearly on the right track now. We are trying to get countries to remove their unfair tariffs, barriers, etc.. by threatening them with tariffs. And since we are currently in the "deficit" position, they have more to lose in our market than we do in theirs. We just have to stand strong and take the short term hits from their retaliation until their pain so exceeds our own, they have to come to the table because it makes sense for everyone. If we weaken because economic pinheads, liberals, and Trump derangement sufferers can't stand a little short term pain for long term gain, then we'll blow our best chance in several decades to get on a healthier track for the country in trade.And this is exactly it. :ThmbUp:
Lemon Drop Husker
07-26-2018, 04:43 AM
I'm begging to know the thoughts of Elysian. Surely he has this all figured out.
elysiantraveller
07-26-2018, 07:40 AM
I'm begging to know the thoughts of Elysian. Surely he has this all figured out.
From the other thread.
I've already commented on this. Its either:
1) The Trump way of announcing a victory without actually accomplishing anything and moving on. Or...
2) It sure sounded like he agreed to work on the Obama Era trade deal TTiP which Europe has always been open to. NAFTA for Europe.
I like 2 because I like free trade. Hopefully that's the case. It will do nothing to the trade deficit though or a multitude of other complaints raised by the folks here.
If it is 2 I don't understand why any of this was necessary in the first place. Europe was already willing to discuss TTiP they had been for 5 years.
Lemon Drop Husker
07-26-2018, 08:11 AM
From the other thread.
I've already commented on this. Its either:
1) The Trump way of announcing a victory without actually accomplishing anything and moving on. Or...
2) It sure sounded like he agreed to work on the Obama Era trade deal TTiP which Europe has always been open to. NAFTA for Europe.
I like 2 because I like free trade. Hopefully that's the case. It will do nothing to the trade deficit though or a multitude of other complaints raised by the folks here.
If it is 2 I don't understand why any of this was necessary in the first place. Europe was already willing to discuss TTiP they had been for 5 years. :rolleyes:
tucker6
07-26-2018, 08:33 AM
I still think totally free trade can't work well because countries still have vastly different regulations, tax structures, labor laws, and labor costs. They erect barriers, manipulate currencies (the monetary system is fvcked up) etc... Therefore there will inevitably be huge transfers of jobs and wealth (as there has been for the last 30+ years). It's not until everyone is in a similar position that it can start working as the theory suggests. "Western" Europe is in pretty much the same position as the US. Free trade with most of "western" Europe should work reasonably well unless there are tariffs, barriers etc.. The problem is that it may still be another 50 years until many other places are in that position and we are still getting gutted in the meantime.
Here's one such barrier no one ever thinks about, but greatly hampers the 'even playing field'. In the EU, they have a regulation that drawings and manuals must include the native tongue of the country the goods are being sold into. Except of course if you are an EU country. Then the rule does not apply. So, as a USA company, I have to increase my costs by $20-50k to cover this expense, and thus making my proposal high priced. Ingenious really. They don't prevent me from trading or raise a tariff, but I'm essentially dead in the water with that hidden barrier. Many more barriers like that exist meant to keep us out.
fast4522
08-03-2018, 08:42 PM
China plans tariffs on $60 billion of US products
https://money.cnn.com/2018/08/03/news/economy/china-us-tariffs-retaliation/index.html
Clocker
08-03-2018, 09:34 PM
China plans tariffs on $60 billion of US products
https://money.cnn.com/2018/08/03/news/economy/china-us-tariffs-retaliation/index.html
I would have thought the Chinese would know more about trade than that. Probably just rattling Trump's cage, setting him up in preparation for a deal that he can claim is a YUGE win. Then back to business as usual.
elysiantraveller
08-03-2018, 09:53 PM
I would have thought the Chinese would know more about trade than that. Probably just rattling Trump's cage, setting him up in preparation for a deal that he can claim is a YUGE win. Then back to business as usual.
Trump is facing political pressure. Might as well keep it ratcheted up for now.
Its not like Chinese need to worry about elections. :lol:
fast4522
08-04-2018, 09:52 AM
I would have thought the Chinese would know more about trade than that. Probably just rattling Trump's cage, setting him up in preparation for a deal that he can claim is a YUGE win. Then back to business as usual.
China specifically is a huge problem, just like Fentanyl. People like yourself with pure trade logic will never will never be open to the fact that we should have done something about this long ago. People are addicted to cheep junk that end up filling in our recycled junkyards and landfills. We as a nation owe China and other country's nothing, timing is good to introduce policy that has benefit in economics to our government. The benefit to our country's position is much greater than the benefit to consumers who die, killing our country should not be a benefit to consumers. Policy going forward will naturally be more balanced as policy itself is formed in a less crude manner.
Clocker
08-04-2018, 11:06 AM
China specifically is a huge problem, just like Fentanyl. People like yourself with pure trade logic will never will never be open to the fact that we should have done something about this long ago. People are addicted to cheep junk that end up filling in our recycled junkyards and landfills.
So you and Trump think we need more control over consumers to modify their behavior. This free trade thing is a bad idea because people do not know what is good for them, and they need their betters to move them in the right direction. No more cheap junk from Asia, just Buy American.
Got it. :ThmbUp:
fast4522
08-04-2018, 05:05 PM
So you and Trump think we need more control over consumers to modify their behavior. This free trade thing is a bad idea because people do not know what is good for them, and they need their betters to move them in the right direction. No more cheap junk from Asia, just Buy American.
Got it. :ThmbUp:
No not at all, what I am saying is policy is in flux and absolutely no experts know their ass from their elbow when it comes to bringing others to the table to getting a better deal for us all in these United States of America. Everybody thus far are proven rank amateurs for doing nothing the last 30 years or more.
You and others prefer simple, complex scares your crowd. If something needs to be done your answer is not today, but today the iron is hot and comparatively speaking positions around the world are very weak compared to ours. I could give a rats ass who gets crushed because of our actions, the important part is no one can have a better hand than the United States this time around.
fast4522
08-08-2018, 09:28 PM
US unveils next round of Chinese imports to face tariffs
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/07/politics/us-china-tariff-list/index.html
elysiantraveller
08-08-2018, 09:37 PM
US unveils next round of Chinese imports to face tariffs
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/07/politics/us-china-tariff-list/index.html
And more businesses feeling the pain...
WSJ: ‘We Are at the Limit’: Trump’s Tariffs Turn Small Businesses Upside Down (https://www.wsj.com/articles/we-are-at-the-limit-trumps-tariffs-turn-small-businesses-upside-down-1533660467)
TRUMP TARIFFS' IMPACT: SOUTH CAROLINA COUNTY TO LOSE JOBS AFTER TV MAKER ANNOUNCES PLANT CLOSURE (https://www.newsweek.com/trump-tariff-south-carolina-plant-close-1061337)
fast4522
08-08-2018, 11:30 PM
China slaps 25% tariffs on $16 billion worth of US goods
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/08/china-announces-25percent-tariffs-on-16-billion-worth-of-us-goods-including.html
tucker6
08-09-2018, 08:09 AM
China is losing this fight and they know it.
incoming
08-09-2018, 08:22 AM
China is losing this fight and they know it.
Agreed....Their stocks :lol: and their currency :lol: have done a tumbling act since the Prez raised tariffs. $$$
fast4522
08-09-2018, 12:38 PM
China is losing this fight and they know it.
Their economy is in the shithole and is worsening, it is working.
elysiantraveller
08-09-2018, 12:43 PM
Their economy is in the shithole and is worsening, it is working.
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
What planet do you guys exist on?
China GDP Growth Rate (https://tradingeconomics.com/china/gdp-growth)
https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/china-gdp-growth.png?s=cngdpqoq&v=201807160214v
Next question.... what if they stop giving us cash?
fast4522
08-09-2018, 01:02 PM
Bogus charts and graphs just like the commie Sluagh, sure looks like Xi Jinping loves Trump with your data. I think the majority here would find your post bogus.
elysiantraveller
08-09-2018, 01:22 PM
Bogus charts and graphs just like the commie Sluagh, sure looks like Xi Jinping loves Trump with your data. I think the majority here would find your post bogus.
Okay... so despite evidence to the contrary you maintain their economy is terrible. :liar:
Second question still unanswered.
What happens if they stop giving us cash?
incoming
08-09-2018, 01:48 PM
Bogus charts and graphs just like the commie Sluagh, sure looks like Xi Jinping loves Trump with your data. I think the majority here would find your post bogus.
Just like you stated, anyone that follows the markets closely knows you don't ever, never believe any financial numbers that come out of China. Their 10 largest companies are state owned, books are cooked to prop them up.
China also has many large cities built to completion, but with 1/10 of the population they were designed to house. Photos, video and commentary at links.
https://www.businessinsider.com/these-
chinese-cities-are-ghost-towns-2017-
4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3XfpYxHKCo
elysiantraveller
08-09-2018, 02:02 PM
Just like you stated, anyone that follows the markets closely knows you don't ever, never believe any financial numbers that come out of China. Their 10 largest companies are state owned, books are cooked to prop them up.
China also has many large cities built to completion, but with 1/10 of the population they were designed to house. Photos, video and commentary at links.
https://www.businessinsider.com/these-
chinese-cities-are-ghost-towns-2017-
4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3XfpYxHKCo
But China's books have always been cooked.
Furthermore the numbers being thrown around right now are miniscule to even their economy.
Dictatorships are much better built to fight trade fights. They don't have segments of the population that can be targeted to sway votes. The 120 people losing their jobs at the factory in South Carolina are likely not going to vote for Trump/Republican... Chinese citizens don't vote.
Still nobody willing to tackle the question of what happens if they stop giving us cash?
(Not necessarily directed at you)
incoming
08-09-2018, 02:09 PM
But China's books have always been cooked.
Furthermore the numbers being thrown around right now are miniscule to even their economy.
Dictatorships are much better built to fight trade fights. They don't have segments of the population that can be targeted to sway votes. The 120 people losing their jobs at the factory in South Carolina are likely not going to vote for Trump/Republican... Chinese citizens don't vote.t
Still nobody willing to tackle the question of what happens if they stop giving us cash?
(Not necessarily directed at you)
I won't participate in any of your circle jerks...please get a life.
fast4522
08-09-2018, 05:12 PM
Still nobody willing to tackle the question of what happens if they stop giving us cash?
Heck that is the easy one, the congress will go on a diet real fast. Military, Social Security, and Medicare maintained. Everything else gone, China is why we got like this and sure as shit will be taxed equal or greater as they manipulate currency included until we are out.
elysiantraveller
08-09-2018, 05:15 PM
Heck that is the easy one, the congress will go on a diet real fast. Military, Social Security, and Medicare maintained. Everything else gone, China is why we got like this and sure as shit will be taxed equal or greater as they manipulate currency included until we are out.
Dude... tariffs are taxes on us. :bang:
fast4522
08-09-2018, 05:17 PM
Dude... tariffs are taxes on us. :bang:
So you and China can do the same thing right dude?
elysiantraveller
08-09-2018, 05:18 PM
So you and China can do the same thing right dude?
How is China going to be taxed like us?
fast4522
08-09-2018, 05:24 PM
Incoming summed it up correctly about participating in any of your circle jerks.
Our position will hold, you and China can carry on.
elysiantraveller
08-09-2018, 06:29 PM
Incoming summed it up correctly about participating in any of your circle jerks.
Our position will hold, you and China can carry on.
So... you don't know.
Okay.
reckless
08-10-2018, 11:33 AM
Okay... so despite evidence to the contrary you maintain their economy is terrible. :liar:
Second question still unanswered.
What happens if they stop giving us cash?
When you say if China stops giving us cash --a juvenile description to say the least-- do you mean China investing in US debt, such as bonds, Treasurys, corporations and real property?
Well if that is what you really mean -- incoherency is such a sad state of mind; just ask the 'It' girl Ocasio-Cortez -- nothing serious happens -- at least to the USA.
I know you probably think the USA economy will crash without China ... without China dumping cheap and unsafe products, without stealing our technology, without devaluing their currency. Yes, we 'need' China for all that -- :lol::lol:.
So, if China does stop all this 'sending' -- now by stopping all this 'sending', the hardship will actually wind up at the foot of the Chinese government and not with the USA of Donald J. Trump.
If China is indeed threatening to retaliate against any U.S. trade action by reducing its purchases of U.S. government bonds, not only would this be a pretty hollow threat, but in fact it would be exactly what Washington wants. To see why, let’s consider all the ways in which Beijing can reduce its purchases of U.S. government bonds.
1--Beijing could buy fewer U.S. government bonds and more of other U.S. assets, so that net capital flows from China to the United States would remain unchanged.
2--Beijing could buy fewer U.S. government and other U.S. assets, but other Chinese entities could then in turn buy more U.S. assets, so that net capital flows from China to the United States would stay unchanged.
3--Beijing and other Chinese entities could buy fewer U.S. assets and replace them with an equivalently larger amount of assets from other developed countries, so that net capital flows from China to the United States would be reduced, and net capital flows from China to other developed countries would increase by the same amount.
4--Beijing and other Chinese entities could buy fewer U.S. assets and replace them with an equivalently larger amount of assets from other developing countries, so that net capital flows from China to the United States would be reduced, and net capital flows from China to other developing countries would increase by the same amount.
5--Beijing and other Chinese entities could buy fewer U.S. assets and not replace them by purchasing an equivalently larger amount of assets from other countries, so that net capital flows from China to the United States and to the world would be reduced.
https://www.financialsense.com/michael-pettis/what-would-happen-if-china-stopped-buying-us-treasury-bonds
The Chinese government has always threatened the USA when some politician speaks the truth about China's trade policies. It's happened many times in the past 25 years. But, in prior years, the China-is-bad talk ended right then and there.
That is before Donald Trump came to town.
The US economy, our government, and simply, our American way of life, will survive quite well in respect to any 'trade war', 'tariffs' and the like. Trump haters and compromised politicians may worry at night, but our great life goes despite their tears.
You cannot say the same for the Chinese and for most of the countries in the world.
elysiantraveller
08-10-2018, 11:42 AM
Long term... of course it won't effect us.
Short term... rates spike and growth stops.
Against we're a democracy. :cool:
Inner Dirt
08-10-2018, 12:08 PM
So far in my small world the tariffs are having a bad effect. I am a small machine shop who makes customer parts mostly from bar stock rods out of aluminum, brass, plastic and all steels. I was hoping the tariffs would rid my world of inferior Chinese aluminum and steel. You can demand good quality domestic or European all you want, but smaller sizes are not marked, so you must trust your supplier on smaller items.
Anyway, the tariffs have worked the opposite of what I hoped from my local metal suppliers. First prices went up across the board far in excess of any tariff percentage, regardless of country of origin. It could be the USA mills just jacked their prices up to match the tariff percentages imposed on imports, then the middle men added on top of that.
A lot of places now are refusing to carry high quality USA aluminum like Kaiser or Sapa, instead your options are now low end domestic recycled crap like Service Center or Chinese, the quality European suppliers were dumped also.
The low end stuff is fine to make guard rails or window frames out of, but not precision machined parts. Poor material increases cycle times, tool wear and scrap rates.
Case in point I am running a repeat job that I last did late in 2017. I paid 55% more for crappy Chinese stainless than I did when it was run last from domestic. Job took 8 hrs last time, I am on the 14th hour now and no where near done, you have to slow way down on the Chinese crap to make it finish good.
elysiantraveller
08-10-2018, 12:21 PM
So far in my small world the tariffs are having a bad effect. I am a small machine shop who makes customer parts mostly from bar stock rods out of aluminum, brass, plastic and all steels. I was hoping the tariffs would rid my world of inferior Chinese aluminum and steel. You can demand good quality domestic or European all you want, but smaller sizes are not marked, so you must trust your supplier on smaller items.
Anyway, the tariffs have worked the opposite of what I hoped from my local metal suppliers. First prices went up across the board far in excess of any tariff percentage, regardless of country of origin. It could be the USA mills just jacked their prices up to match the tariff percentages imposed on imports, then the middle men added on top of that.
A lot of places now are refusing to carry high quality USA aluminum like Kaiser or Sapa, instead your options are now low end domestic recycled crap like Service Center or Chinese, the quality European suppliers were dumped also.
The low end stuff is fine to make guard rails or window frames out of, but not precision machined parts. Poor material increases cycle times, tool wear and scrap rates.
Case in point I am running a repeat job that I last did late in 2017. I paid 55% more for crappy Chinese stainless than I did when it was run last from domestic. Job took 8 hrs last time, I am on the 14th hour now and no where near done, you have to slow way down on the Chinese crap to make it finish good.
JPMorgan/Chase is sending this (https://commercial.jpmorganchase.com/pages/commercial-banking/executive-connect/tariffs-ineffective-bargaining-tool) out to all of its Corporate Clients.
But those arguing in favor of tariffs often stray from these real problems and instead focus on the trade deficit, which is an entirely different issue—and efforts to fix it are both unattainable and undesirable. Any attempt to balance the US current account through tariffs will hurt American consumers and businesses alike, isolating the US from the growing Chinese market.
fast4522
08-30-2018, 11:57 PM
Trump rejects EU offer to eliminate auto tariffs
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rejects-eu-offer-eliminate-220700746.html
Burls
08-31-2018, 01:14 AM
So far in my small world the tariffs are having a bad effect. I am a small machine shop who makes customer parts mostly from bar stock rods out of aluminum, brass, plastic and all steels. I was hoping the tariffs would rid my world of inferior Chinese aluminum and steel. You can demand good quality domestic or European all you want, but smaller sizes are not marked, so you must trust your supplier on smaller items.
Anyway, the tariffs have worked the opposite of what I hoped from my local metal suppliers. First prices went up across the board far in excess of any tariff percentage, regardless of country of origin. It could be the USA mills just jacked their prices up to match the tariff percentages imposed on imports, then the middle men added on top of that.
A lot of places now are refusing to carry high quality USA aluminum like Kaiser or Sapa, instead your options are now low end domestic recycled crap like Service Center or Chinese, the quality European suppliers were dumped also.
The low end stuff is fine to make guard rails or window frames out of, but not precision machined parts. Poor material increases cycle times, tool wear and scrap rates.
Case in point I am running a repeat job that I last did late in 2017. I paid 55% more for crappy Chinese stainless than I did when it was run last from domestic. Job took 8 hrs last time, I am on the 14th hour now and no where near done, you have to slow way down on the Chinese crap to make it finish good.
You have my condolences that your livelihood is being put into jeopardy by the policies of the arrogant, egotistical, petty, ignorant buffoon Doofus Drumph.
I dared to point out that tariff policies are detrimental on another thread, but the good people on PA were having none of it.
Hopefully, the Drumph disaster will be over soon.
ReplayRandall
08-31-2018, 01:25 AM
Hopefully, the Drumph disaster will be over soon.
You're hopeless....and it will be over soon. Go into hiding now, Villain jr.
elysiantraveller
08-31-2018, 06:34 AM
Trump rejects EU offer to eliminate auto tariffs
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rejects-eu-offer-eliminate-220700746.html
https://i.gifer.com/92P3.gif
elysiantraveller
08-31-2018, 06:56 AM
Trump rejects EU offer to eliminate auto tariffs
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rejects-eu-offer-eliminate-220700746.html
:lol::lol::lol:
So after months of arguing this stuff and the constant citing of EU auto tariffs... we are again moving the goalposts...
:lol::lol::lol:
I'll leave this gem from a few months ago here for you guys...
Secondly, we have our own tariffs. The often cited one around here is the EU tariff of 10% on cars. We have a 2.5% tariff on cars and 25% tariff on all trucks, vans, and SUVS. So here is how it works...
Ford builds their cars for the European market in Europe. BMW builds their cars for the American market in America... The tariff is really much ado about nothing as most popular cars in America aren't what sells in Europe and vice versa...
Ford has no interest in making the S Max in the United States. It would have to ship it Europe anyway as no one here wants it.
You've elected a moron who has no idea what he's doing... at least he figured this part out...
Trump said that the offer is "not good enough," adding that European "consumer habits are to buy their cars, not to buy our cars."
Inner Dirt
08-31-2018, 07:15 AM
Just got some steel in yesterday, same grade that was jacked up 50% a few months ago (from $1 to $1.50 lb) from late 2017 prices fell to $1.10 which of course is now 10% over last year's. This is domestic steel. It is possible things are starting to settle and the attempts at flat out gouging will stop. As I said previously I don't buy enough to go mill direct, so I am paying a wholesaler's mark up. Don't know where the wild price swings are coming from, the mill, wholesaler, or both.
A natural reaction.
All this hollering about HUGE companies can absorb wage increases, but when it is a material increase, they can't.
I am sure SPACEX is not going to stop launches because AL went up 10%
elysiantraveller
10-17-2018, 12:34 PM
US-China trade: Larry Kudlow 'cynical' about its prospects (https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/us-china-trade-larry-kudlow-cynical-about-its-prospects)
Clocker
10-17-2018, 12:50 PM
Ford Motors says that Trump's tariffs have cost it $1 billion so far, and the company is preparing to cut 24,000 jobs.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-prepares-mass-layoffs-losing-002618564.html
FantasticDan
10-29-2018, 05:36 PM
https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1057011973181894658
FantasticDan
10-29-2018, 05:58 PM
https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1057028058056671232
fast4522
11-08-2018, 12:35 AM
Ford Motors says that Trump's tariffs have cost it $1 billion so far, and the company is preparing to cut 24,000 jobs.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-prepares-mass-layoffs-losing-002618564.html
Ya right we will be just like Cuba soon driving very old cars.
Heck that is nothing to you, without a marked increase of solar panels your position in silver dives right?
tucker6
11-09-2018, 11:57 AM
Whispers are in the air about a conclusion to the US - China trade tiff later this month.
Clocker
11-09-2018, 01:08 PM
Whispers are in the air about a conclusion to the US - China trade tiff later this month.
Word is Secy. of Commerce Wilbur Ross is the next to go, Trump not happy with his negotiation of trade deals. The Donald will probably step in and personally negotiate a deal with China to show how it is done, and we can all live happily ever after.
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-09/commerce-secretary-wilbur-ross-may-be-his-way-out
burnsy
11-21-2018, 02:36 PM
Word is Secy. of Commerce Wilbur Ross is the next to go, Trump not happy with his negotiation of trade deals. The Donald will probably step in and personally negotiate a deal with China to show how it is done, and we can all live happily ever after.
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-09/commerce-secretary-wilbur-ross-may-be-his-way-out
Well, he better get off his ass and do something soon. I couldn't even find the "Great Economy Winning Thread" and this was 4 pages in....gee, I wonder why? Top economist are saying the same sort of things I said. They are already crying about next year. The King Mouthbreather better get off his ass soon...…..its coming...…..Tariffs.....lol......For Christ sakes. What a joke.
Hes trying his best to monkey wrench this economy! Of course hes not happy. China, no budge...surprise, surprise...….:lol::lol::lol:
As the market makes the whistling bomb sound...…..
Clocker
11-21-2018, 03:04 PM
Tariffs.....lol......For Christ sakes. What a joke.
Hes trying his best to monkey wrench this economy! Of course hes not happy. China, no budge...surprise, surprise...….:lol::lol::lol:
The tariffs were supposed to make China see the error of its ways and cave in to Trump's wishes for "free but fair" trade. That didn't happen.
Some top economic advisors, like former Goldman CEO Gary Cohn, opposed the tariffs and ended up leaving the administration. Cohn's replacement, Larry Kudlow, a long-time free trade advocate, has kept a very low profile on tariffs since joining the administration. The big tariff hawk in the administration, especially regarding China, is Peter Navarro.
Trump is meeting with Chinese President Xi in December. Perhaps some changes in the wind.
...futures did jump on a report from SCMP that Trump trade advisor and notorious China hawk, Peter Navarro, has been excluded from the guest list when US President Donald Trump meets his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping in Buenos Aires on December 1.https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-21/peter-navarro-said-be-excluded-trump-xi-summit-stocks-hit-session-high
Clocker
11-21-2018, 05:15 PM
Looks like the boys in the White House aren't playing well together.
The White House has deliberately curtailed trade advisor Peter Navarro's public profile amid a clash with top economic advisor Larry Kudlow, a person with knowledge of the matter told CNBC on condition of anonymity.
On Tuesday, Kudlow slammed Navarro for his remarks on the White House's ongoing trade negotiations with China. Washington and Beijing have struggled to reach a new trade deal and de-escalate tensions that have led to mounting tariffs. Kudlow told CNBC on Tuesday that Navarro "was not speaking for the president, nor was he speaking for the administration."
"His remarks were way off base. They were not authorized by anybody. I actually think he did the president a great disservice," said Kudlow, the director of the National Economic Council.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/14/white-house-limits-peter-navarros-role-amid-china-trade-clash-with-larry-kudlow.html
tucker6
11-21-2018, 08:52 PM
... oops Clocker.
I guess Trump's 1960's economics degree trumps your "modern" degree (pun intended).
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-19/china-is-paying-for-most-of-trump-s-trade-war-research-says
President Donald Trump is succeeding in making China pay most of the cost of his trade war.
That’s the conclusion of a new paper from EconPol Europe, a network of researchers in the European Union. U.S. companies and consumers will only pay 4.5 percent more after the nation imposed 25 percent tariffs on $250 billion of Chinese goods, and the other 20.5 percent toll will fall on Chinese producers, according to authors Benedikt Zoller-Rydzek and Gabriel Felbermayr.
The Trump administration selected products with the highest “price elasticity,” or high availability of substitutes, according to Zoller-Rydzek and Felbermayr. The Chinese products hit by Trump’s tariffs can mostly be replaced by other goods, forcing exporters to cut selling prices to keep buyers.
“Through its strategic choice of Chinese products, the U.S. government was not only able to minimize the negative effects on U.S. consumers and firms, but also to create substantial net welfare gains in the U.S.,” the researchers wrote.
I wish Elysian were still around to tell me how his Euro buddies and Bloomberg are all wet. So let me get this straight. After months of telling us that the US economy would tank under the incredible weight of tariffs against China, it seems Trump out-trumped China by skewing the end result on consumers. China is eating most of the cost of tariffs and we will hardly see the increase in our costs. How about that.
#winning
Clocker
11-21-2018, 09:38 PM
So let me get this straight. After months of telling us that the US economy would tank under the incredible weight of tariffs against China, it seems Trump out-trumped China by skewing the end result on consumers. China is eating most of the cost of tariffs and we will hardly see the increase in our costs. How about that.
#winning
Nobody ever said that the US economy would tank under tariffs. Trump's own people said that the cost of living for American consumers would increase by 10-15%.
That article indicates that the burden of tariffs will be somewhat less than it might be. The good news is that as a command economy, China can force Chinese manufacturers to eat part of the tariffs, at least in the short run. They can't do that forever. That doesn't change the major impact of tariffs on goods America exports to China, such as soy beans. Farmers are still hurting.
And it doesn't change the impact on American consumers of the tariffs on imports from other countries, like lumber from Canada or appliances from South Korea or steel from many different countries or aluminum ore from Canada.
delayjf
11-21-2018, 10:28 PM
The tariffs were supposed to make China see the error of its ways and cave in to Trump's wishes for "free but fair" trade. That didn't happen.
What are the alternatives regarding how to deal with China?
Clocker
11-21-2018, 10:49 PM
What are the alternatives regarding how to deal with China?
There are a number of legitimate issues regarding trade with China, most of which cannot be addressed by tariffs. The real issues are not about how much a Chinese manufacturer charges for the pots and pans it sells to WalMart. And tariffs cannot address those issues.
A big issue is intellectual property. The problem is that many western companies are willing to give intellectual property to China in exchange for market entry. And there are accusations that China just plain steals intellectual property. Our government doesn't like that, but doesn't know how to deal with it. But the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and it's easier to enact tariffs than to deal with tougher questions.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/26/business/china-us-trade.html
Clocker
11-22-2018, 11:37 AM
... oops Clocker.
I guess Trump's 1960's economics degree trumps your "modern" degree (pun intended).
Macroeconomic theory taught in the 1960s was based on the assumption that the federal government can and should influence the private sector through its policies and its intervention in markets.
The belief was that recessions and unemployment were caused by insufficient demand by the private sector. The "cure" was manipulation of interest rates to encourage business investment spending and federal deficit spending to put more money into the economy and stimulate consumer spending. The result was touted as the end of recessions forever, and we would all live happily ever after. How did that work out?
Tariffs were not a big issue at the time, as foreign trade was a much smaller part of the economy. But clearly, Trump formed a strong belief that the federal government can and should play a big role in controlling the private sector. And he has apparently learned nothing from the real world results since then of what happens when the federal government tries to micromanage the economy.
A lot of people thought that Trump ran for president opposing big government. He didn't. He ran for president opposing big government run by Obama and Hillary, but in favor of big government run by The Donald. He believes that the government should determine winners and losers in the market, as long as he runs the government.
fast4522
11-22-2018, 12:18 PM
Millions of good Americans were crushed by Obama policys, today some are also being crushed by Trump policys. This is the price for not having a third term of Obama. The whole China thing will just have to play out like a bad cold, one thing that is certain is that China is going to have to cave and emerging markets will suffer for years.
Clocker
11-22-2018, 01:05 PM
today some are also being crushed by Trump policys.
You have no problem with Trump deciding who gets "crushed"? No problem with Trump picking winners and losers, rather than leaving it to the free market?
fast4522
11-22-2018, 01:12 PM
You have no problem with Trump deciding who gets "crushed"? No problem with Trump picking winners and losers, rather than leaving it to the free market?
I have no problem with someone telling everyone exactly what he will do if he becomes President, then checks off things that he said he would do. If you bet against that in the markets you will find NO one feeling bad for you. The winners and losers thing has naturally occured since before you were born, so your real weak there. China has it coming to them, the more they get smoked the better.
chadk66
11-22-2018, 06:15 PM
Trump will win this battle in the end and America will be better off because of it. No pain no gain.
Clocker
11-22-2018, 09:48 PM
China is eating most of the cost of tariffs and we will hardly see the increase in our costs. How about that.
How about that? That means that the Trump tariffs are ineffective, and that Chinese imports will continue to be highly competitive against American products. I'd guess that it is highly likely that the Chinese government is subsidizing the price cuts by their firms. I'm sure Trump will tweet about how unfair this is.
But the US isn't going to subsidize any US company faced with retaliatory tariffs for exports to China or any other country. So the net result is that Chinese imports into the US remain competitive, but US exports into China are now at a much bigger disadvantage.
vegasone
11-23-2018, 03:07 PM
What are the alternatives regarding how to deal with China?
Just keep doing the same things the way they have been done. What most of those know it alls want.
Trying something different is not in their methodology.
Check with Einstein on that one.
Clocker
11-23-2018, 06:06 PM
Trying something different is not in their methodology.
Well we tried protective tariffs before, and we know they don't work. Tariffs certainly made the Great Depression worse than it would have been. From Wiki:
The Tariff Act of 1930 (codified at 19 U.S.C. ch. 4), commonly known as the Smoot–Hawley Tariff or Hawley–Smoot Tariff,[1] was an Act implementing protectionist trade policies sponsored by Senator Reed Smoot and Representative Willis C. Hawley and was signed into law on June 17, 1930. The act raised U.S. tariffs on over 20,000 imported goods.[2]
The tariffs (this does not include duty-free imports – see Tariff levels below) under the act were the second-highest in the U.S. in 100 years, exceeded by a small margin by the Tariff of 1828.[3] The Act and following retaliatory tariffs by America's trading partners were major factors of the reduction of American exports and imports by more than half during the Depression.[4] Although economists disagree by how much, the consensus view among economists and economic historians is that "The passage of the Smoot–Hawley Tariff exacerbated the Great Depression."[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot%E2%80%93Hawley_Tariff_Act
And there is strong evidence that selling off stock in anticipation of the tariffs as they went through Congress was one of the causes of the Great Depression:
http://fortune.com/2018/03/04/did-tariffs-cause-the-great-depression/
More on the ill effects of tariffs, including the failure of George W. Bush's steel tariffs, here:
https://www.aier.org/article/tariffs-history-repeated-failure
fast4522
11-23-2018, 06:25 PM
Sure, Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. sold off stocks prior to the crash, and during the Great Depression hires extra servants.
Clocker
11-24-2018, 12:54 AM
Sure, Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. sold off stocks prior to the crash, and during the Great Depression hires extra servants.
News flash. Joe Kennedy caused the Great Depression. Hard to argue with that kind of detailed historical evidence and analysis.
woodtoo
11-24-2018, 08:18 AM
Eastern Europe is the future and is leading GDP by a mile over western Europe
who are destroying their culture and people.
Top GDP Countries 3Q:
Poland 5.7
Latvia 5.5
Hungary 5
Slovakia 4.5
Romania 4.1
Cyprus 3.6
Bulgaria 3
Lithuania 2.7
Austria 2.6
Spain 2.5
Netherlands 2.4
Czechia 2.3
Finland 2.3
Denmark 2.2
Portugal 2.1
Belgium 1.7
U.K. 1.5
France 1.5
Germany 1.2
Italy 0.8
fast4522
11-24-2018, 09:59 AM
News flash. Joe Kennedy caused the Great Depression. Hard to argue with that kind of detailed historical evidence and analysis.
No he did not, but recieved infomation what was to happen.
woodtoo
11-24-2018, 04:56 PM
A new Econpol Policy Brief shows 4.5% of the 25% Chinese tariffs are being paid by American consumers with Chinese producers absorbing the remaining 20.5%.
According to the authors Benedikt Zollar-Rydzek.
#winning
chadk66
11-24-2018, 06:17 PM
A new Econpol Policy Brief shows 4.5% of the 25% Chinese tariffs are being paid by American consumers with Chinese producers absorbing the remaining 20.5%.
According to the authors Benedikt Zollar-Rydzek.
#winninglooks like winning to me
Clocker
11-24-2018, 06:33 PM
looks like winning to me
To repeat, if American consumers aren't paying the tariffs, then the Chinese products remain price competitive, and American consumers will tend to buy the less expensive Chinese products rather than switch to more expensive American made goods.
Therefore the tariffs are not doing what Trump wanted them to do, which was to make Chinese products more expensive than American products. That is hardly winning for The Donald.
And I suspect that the Chinese government is subsidizing the Chinese firms that are "absorbing" the larger part of the tariffs. To further repeat, Trump's tariffs are taxes on American consumers. By absorbing the greater part of the tariffs, the Chinese are reducing the taxes paid by Americans in return for them buying Chinese imports.
Look for nasty tweets from Trump on this once someone explains it to him. ;)
fast4522
11-24-2018, 07:33 PM
Wrong, companys are forced into zero profit to keep jobs for workers. This is really bad for China, they can change or burn. This is no exaggeration, things are not good for them.
Clocker
11-24-2018, 08:14 PM
Wrong, companys are forced into zero profit to keep jobs for workers. This is really bad for China, they can change or burn. This is no exaggeration, things are not good for them.
You can't learn what is going on in the world from reading Trump's tweets. China is giving tax breaks and other incentives to companies hit by Trump's tariffs.
Less than a week after the United States and China struck each other with steep tariffs, Beijing has unveiled a basic outline to help Chinese companies absorb the blows, pledging to funnel money collected from levies to firms and workers tangled in the escalating trade war.
Officials also encouraged businesses here to roll back their reliance on U.S. goods, urging them to shift orders for products such as soybeans and automobiles to suppliers in China or countries other than the United States.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/china-vows-to-save-its-companies-from-trade-war-pain--with-cash/2018/07/10/ced65a74-841d-11e8-8589-5bb6b89e3772_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.049f83c53fb9
China announced measures to support some of the exporters targeted by U.S. President Donald Trump’s barrage of higher tariffs.
The Ministry of Finance said it will raise export rebate rates for 397 goods, ranging from lubricants to children’s books, meaning that firms shipping such products abroad will pay less value-added tax. The new rates will be effective from Sept. 15, the ministry said Friday in a statement on its website.
About a sixth of the items were among the products already hit by U.S. tariffs recently imposed on $50 billion in Chinese goods, such as pressure-reducing valves or lubricants. Bloomberg identified these items by comparing the products (http://szs.mof.gov.cn/zhengwuxinxi/zhengcefabu/201809/t20180905_3010310.html) on the VAT list to items on the lists of goods hit by higher levies. At least another 67 items getting a rebate may soon be hit by the next round of tariffs.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-07/china-offers-tax-breaks-to-some-exporters-hit-by-trump-tariffs
fast4522
11-24-2018, 08:19 PM
I do not have a twitter, facebook, or any of the names I know nothing about. I am really oldschool and do not want to sign up for any of it. I do know China can lose trillons on just one day, that ain't so bad.
Clocker
11-24-2018, 08:32 PM
I do not have a twitter, facebook, or any of the names I know nothing about. I am really oldschool and do not want to sign up for any of it. I do know China can lose trillons on just one day, that ain't so bad.
All you need is Google, which you have if you are on the internet. You have no facts or sources to support statements like Chinese firms have zero profits.
How is China going to lose trillions if it is still selling its goods to American consumers and it has stopped buying American products like soy beans, previously a big deal for American farmers? This is just making our trade deficit with China even worse than it was before the tariffs.
fast4522
11-24-2018, 08:40 PM
All you need is Google, which you have if you are on the internet. You have no facts or sources to support statements like Chinese firms have zero profits.
How is China going to lose trillions if it is still selling its goods to American consumers and it has stopped buying American products like soy beans, previously a big deal for American farmers? This is just making our trade deficit with China even worse than it was before the tariffs.
The American farmer was doing so well with soy products that it cut planting carrots. Now shifting more a percentage of carrots there will not be the shortage in carrots in 2019 that there was 2018. Hey I read, just let you know I don't need the phone for anything other than making calls. Let me spell it out for you, F%$&k China.
FantasticDan
11-26-2018, 12:44 PM
https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1067084935050063872
azeri98
11-26-2018, 02:19 PM
https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1067084935050063872
This is bad news for Trumps agenda, those tax cuts didn't help GM I guess.
Clocker
11-26-2018, 05:45 PM
Trump has been lying this month that car plants are opening in "Michigan and Ohio and Pennsylvania and South Carolina and North Carolina and Florida." https://twitter.com/AP/status/1067079061028200448 … (https://t.co/GmEX5ynZz2)
It's just a little exaggeration to get his message across to the public. Like when he touted the impact of his steel tariffs. Nothing wrong with a guy tooting his own horn every once in a while. :faint:
President Donald Trump is crediting his tariffs with persuading U.S. Steel to open a half dozen new plants. That's not so.
TRUMP at a Pennsylvania rally Thursday night: "U.S. Steel is opening up seven plants." On Tuesday, he told supporters in Florida: "U.S. Steel just announced that they're building six new steel mills."
THE FACTS: The Pittsburgh-based company has made no such announcement. U.S. Steel spokeswoman Meghan Cox declined to comment on Trump's claim but said any "operational changes" such as the opening of new mills would be "publicly announced" and "made available on our website" if it occurred.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/ap-fact-check-trump-says-us-steel-opening-mills-not-so
barahona44
11-26-2018, 06:52 PM
The American farmer was doing so well with soy products that it cut planting carrots. Now shifting more a percentage of carrots there will not be the shortage in carrots in 2019 that there was 2018. Hey I read, just let you know I don't need the phone for anything other than making calls. Let me spell it out for you, F%$&k China.
Thank God I can start making carrot cake again. :cool:
fast4522
11-26-2018, 07:26 PM
Well it is factual, instead of carrots farmers increased soy. The very small fraction that these United States sells into mainland China is a pittance compared to what China sells into our country. The pressure of trade tariffs is well worth the pain we absorb for objectives of forcing fair trade with China. Our friend with the economics degree is more concerned about his portfolio than those poor poor Walmart shoppers.
JustRalph
11-26-2018, 07:32 PM
This is bad news for Trumps agenda, those tax cuts didn't help GM I guess.
GM has always been their own worse enemy.
Look around? They have the worst designed cars on the planet. Wasted billions on the Volt.
The Cadillac division has been a loser for 15 yrs plus
Pontiac and Olds disappeared after producing quite possibly the worst looking cars ever.
Anybody recall the Aztek?
Good riddance!
Clocker
11-26-2018, 07:52 PM
Well it is factual, instead of carrots farmers increased soy.
Did you just make this up? The big carrot growers are in California, Washington, and Texas. Soybeans are a major crop in the upper Midwest: Iowa, Minnesota, and the Dakotas. And soybean farmers there are hurting.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/08/refugee-soybeans-in-dakotas-look-for-home-after-china-stops-buying.html
boxcar
11-26-2018, 07:53 PM
GM has always been their own worse enemy.
Look around? They have the worst designed cars on the planet. Wasted billions on the Volt.
The Cadillac division has been a loser for 15 yrs plus
Pontiac and Olds disappeared after producing quite possibly the worst looking cars ever.
Anybody recall the Aztek?
Good riddance!
But it's so much easier for the lazy-minded to blame Trump for GM's woes.
fast4522
11-26-2018, 07:54 PM
Did you just make this up? The big carrot growers are in California, Washington, and Texas. Soybeans are a major crop in the upper Midwest: Iowa, Minnesota, and the Dakotas. And soybean farmers there are hurting.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/08/refugee-soybeans-in-dakotas-look-for-home-after-china-stops-buying.html
Carrots are like grass, will grow anyplace. Yes a shortage in 2018 because other crops.
chadk66
11-26-2018, 08:13 PM
Soy Bean farmers can plant numerous other crops besides Soy Beans. They've been planting crops based on proposed prices for the upcoming year forever. They will just choose to plant other crops for the most part. In ND farmers have a choice between about fourteen different crops. Most have half a dozen different crops in a given year. And with the steep reduction of Soy Bean acres planted over the next couple years will come record prices for Soy Beans the following couple years. Happens all the time with crops.
Clocker
11-26-2018, 08:31 PM
Soy Bean farmers can plant numerous other crops besides Soy Beans.
Including carrots?
Are ND farmers hurt or not by Chinese tariffs on soybeans?
FantasticDan
01-23-2019, 03:05 PM
https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1088164736296996864
jocko699
01-23-2019, 09:28 PM
https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1088164736296996864
Ummm, they would never do that
Clocker
01-23-2019, 09:38 PM
Ummm, they would never do that
Why not? Most of the politicians there and elsewhere are just as clueless about tariffs as Trump is, and don't realize that all they are doing is imposing higher taxes on their own citizens.
jocko699
01-23-2019, 09:41 PM
Why not? Most of the politicians there and elsewhere are just as clueless about tariffs as Trump is, and don't realize that all they are doing is imposing higher taxes on their own citizens.
Because at the end of the day the grown-ups will decide, i.e. those with the money in their pockets.
Clocker
01-23-2019, 09:51 PM
Because at the end of the day the grown-ups will decide, i.e. those with the money in their pockets.
The "grown-ups" with money in their pockets hate tariffs. They love the profits on cheap imports sold to citizens of the richest country in the world in a healthy economy.
jocko699
01-23-2019, 09:54 PM
The "grown-ups" with money in their pockets hate tariffs. They love the profits on cheap imports sold to citizens of the richest country in the world in a healthy economy.
They did not get money in their pockets of that magnitude not to be able to maneuver. The EU will never press its luck against the US, UK yes but not the US.
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