Benefits of Regulations

[hcap]

OMB Report: Net Benefit of Regulations Is Huge.

Oh O.
Original OMB report.

https://www.eenews.net/assets/2018/02/26/document_pm_01.pdf

Summarized......

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/03/omb-report-net-benefit-of-regulations-is-huge/

"Republicans hate regulations. Donald Trump hates regulations. OMB chief Mick Mulvaney hates regulations. So it must have killed him to publish the most recent report to Congress on the costs and benefits of major regulations. Unfortunately, there’s a regulation that requires it, so the report was submitted once again. Here are the estimated net benefits (benefits minus costs) of major regulations over the past decade"

..The thing to note here is that the net benefits are all positive: that is, the benefits far outweigh the costs. This is because federal agencies don’t generally adopt regulations that have a net cost. The people being regulated may hate it, but they aren’t the target for this stuff. You and I are."

https://www.motherjones.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/blog_regulations_by_department_2007_20161.gif

https://www.motherjones.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/blog_regulations_net_benefit_2007_2016.gif

[Clocker]

So the bureaucrats in Washington did a study of themselves to determine if the money we spend on them is worth it.

Amazingly, they found that they are indeed well worth it. :faint:

[chadk66]

:lol:

[fast4522]

https://www.motherjones.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/blog_regulations_net_benefit_2007_2016.gif

Make a real nice sticker on one of these.

[boxcar]

OMB Report: Net Benefit of Regulations Is Huge.

Oh O.
Original OMB report.

https://www.eenews.net/assets/2018/02/26/document_pm_01.pdf

Summarized......

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/03/omb-report-net-benefit-of-regulations-is-huge/

"Republicans hate regulations. Donald Trump hates regulations. OMB chief Mick Mulvaney hates regulations. So it must have killed him to publish the most recent report to Congress on the costs and benefits of major regulations. Unfortunately, there’s a regulation that requires it, so the report was submitted once again. Here are the estimated net benefits (benefits minus costs) of major regulations over the past decade"

..The thing to note here is that the net benefits are all positive: that is, the benefits far outweigh the costs. This is because federal agencies don’t generally adopt regulations that have a net cost. The people being regulated may hate it, but they aren’t the target for this stuff. You and I are."

https://www.motherjones.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/blog_regulations_by_department_2007_20161.gif

https://www.motherjones.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/blog_regulations_net_benefit_2007_2016.gif

There should be a government regulation against worthless graphs and equally worthless posts that eat up precious bandwidth. :coffee:

[thaskalos]

There should be a government regulation against worthless graphs and equally worthless posts that eat up precious bandwidth. :coffee:

If that were the case...then both the religious threads here would have been deleted long ago.

[Dave Schwartz]

There should be a government regulation against worthless graphs and equally worthless posts that eat up precious bandwidth. :coffee:

And who gets to designate the ones that are worthless?

[thaskalos]

And who gets to designate the ones that are worthless?

Boxcar...of course! Who else has proven that he is guided by the "Holy Spirit"?

[Dave Schwartz]

Boxcar...of course! Who else has proven that he is guided by the "Holy Spirit"?

I was thinking along the lines of Republicans (or Democrats) having all the correct answers.

... but get your point.

[davew]

For some reason I suspect the 'costs' of the regulations do not include all the employee, benefits, and facility costs (but I can not tell because of the nice graphs and figures shown).

[elysiantraveller]

...

Why bother...?

These same people LOVE regulations when Trump says to... like tariffs.

[PaceAdvantage]

Did you ever give anyone a "why bother" when they were arguing against Obama supporters? And you happened to agree with them?

I don't recall you ever being this snarky...ever...

But it's all good...just curious...

[boxcar]

And who gets to designate the ones that are worthless?

Why the government, of course, who Hcap implicitly trusts 24/7. :coffee:

[Tom]

This seems to be a pretty stupid article.
"Regulations" are not all equal in value or harm. A regulation has to be judged wholly on its own. Obviously, we need regulations. Obviously, we don't need to regulate everything.

We do know that over-regulating stifles business and costs money.

[boxcar]

I was thinking along the lines of Republicans (or Democrats) having all the correct answers.

Since neither do, this would argue very strongly for limited government -- not more of it with mega tons of regulations.

[elysiantraveller]

Did you ever give anyone a "why bother" when they were arguing against Obama supporters? And you happened to agree with them?

I don't recall you ever being this snarky...ever...

But it's all good...just curious...

Well I have to walk the fine line of consistency. ;)

Hcap and the Democrats love regulations when its Dodd-Frank, the EPA, CFPB, etc... but they hate them when Trump does it via Tariffs.

Then on the flipside we have people touting economic growth at the cutting of regulations and letting the market do its thing while then turning around and supporting tariffs and market controls the other way...

Take Tom's quote which is 1000% correct:

We do know that over-regulating stifles business and costs money.

While that is universally true its only true around these parts depending on which guy you support and which regulations you're talking about.

Strange time indeed.

[boxcar]

Boxcar...of course! Who else has proven that he is guided by the "Holy Spirit"?

Well...I would never presume to impose my will upon anyone, but hey...a born again Christian filled with the Holy Spirit would make eminently more sense than anyone who is son or daughter of the evil one. After all, "the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men".

[boxcar]

If that were the case...then both the religious threads here would have been deleted long ago.

Not necessarily. They are the only threads that contain other-worldly views that are viable alternatives to the tired, hackneyed, worn out, broken worldly
ones. :coffee:

[AndyC]

......Then on the flipside we have people touting economic growth at the cutting of regulations and letting the market do its thing while then turning around and supporting tariffs and market controls the other way...

I am all for letting the market do its thing provided both sides are playing by the same rules. Is it a "free market" when a country will only take American produced goods after a stiff duty has been charged?

[mrhorseplayer]

cant wait till America starts reaping the rewards from deregulation.

[elysiantraveller]

I am all for letting the market do its thing provided both sides are playing by the same rules. Is it a "free market" when a country will only take American produced goods after a stiff duty has been charged?

Provide examples...

If we're the best provider of those goods that country is just harming itself and it's citizens by charging those duties...

How many countries charge duties on our agricultural goods? I'll bet not many.

[Tom]

cant wait till America starts reaping the rewards from deregulation.

We already are.

[mrhorseplayer]

We already are.


yes, its going to keep getting better and thats great for everyone that likes to win.

[hcap]

I ran a shop. Found myself often sympathizing with many I hired. We were a custom shop. Skilled craftsman making expensive furniture and new first time projects.

Saw some awful accidents. Usually a matter of losing attention at as critical moment in the manufacturing process. I rose from the ranks of skilled crafstman but also acquired a technical education, supervising details and doing overall planning of specialty items as well as all projectsd and business direction.

Various machines, from table saws to rooters and heat forming devices, ovens and strip heaters required safety rules, and chemicals used needed understanding of health issues. Yes at times OSHA was a pain and impractical, but there would have been many more accidents without those regulations

Often as new technology advances old rules must be changed. Self interest of the business owner when narrowly focused naturally promotes AVOIDANCE of rules and regulation.

I learned rules and regulation are needed although not always applicable to all situations. Efficiency in creative manufacturing I did must be a balance between the abilities of the worker and the bottom line of the business.

"The Many Faces of Adam Smith"

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/09/the_many_faces_.html

"Adam Smith's faith in the invisible hand has been exaggerated by modern commentators. Smith used the metaphor only once in "The Wealth of Nations," applied it narrowly and presented the idea with more than his usual number of caveats."
.................................................. ....

The invisible hand may not be smart enough to move an economy long term when "the law of accident" is stronger. A regulated economy moved us past the horrors of the The Triangle Shirtwaist Factor fire.

My Jewish/yiddish social conscience .......

In New York City on March 25, 1911 was the deadliest industrial disaster in the history of the city, and one of the deadliest in US history.

https://youtu.be/UwRc3mdWuds

[hcap]

Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Image_of_Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire_on_March _25_-_1911.jpg/550px-Image_of_Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire_on_March _25_-_1911.jpg

[Inner Dirt]

I ran a shop.

Saw some awful accidents. Usually a matter of losing attention at as critical moment in the manufacturing process.

They were probably poorly supervised or you kept people that should been shown the door.

I supervised hundreds of people in possibly dangerous manufacturing environments and in 20 years of working for the man before becoming self employed no one needed more than a band aid on my watch. I ran a tight ship when it came to safety.

[Tom]

Insurance premiums alone should do what the regulations were supposed to.

Safety was always Job #1 every day, at every meeting, at every shop floor huddle. Every internal audit I did had a section totally unrelated to the audit-target and devoted to general safety, even auditing accounting.

Safety doesn't add to the profit line, but lack of it can cost you more than you make.

[hcap]

They were probably poorly supervised or you kept people that should been shown the door.

I supervised hundreds of people in possibly dangerous manufacturing environments and in 20 years of working for the man before becoming self employed no one needed more than a band aid on my watch. I ran a tight ship when it came to safety.Ever do custom shop work? Use table saws, routers, shapers or industrial ovens? Does not sound like you have.

Employer-Reported Workplace Injuries and Illnesses – 2016

There were approximately 2.9 million nonfatal workplace injuries and illnesses reported by private industry employers in 2016, which occurred at a rate of 2.9 cases per 100 full-time equivalent (FTE) workers, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. (See www.bls.gov/web/osh/summ1_00.xlsx
and www.bls.gov/web/osh/summ2_00.xlsx.) Private industry employers reported nearly 48,500 fewer nonfatal injury and illness cases in 2016 compared to a year earlier, according to estimates from the
Survey of Occupational Injuries and Illnesses (SOII).


You know diddly squat.I doubt you ever filled out workers compensation insurgence reports either If you ran a "tight ship" sounds like the Titanic.

[Tom]

From my experience, a lot of those accidents are the result of employees failing to follow procedures and cutting corners.
When we would try to write up employees for not following the rules, guess who ALWAYS got involved and tried to stop us?

THe UAW.......:puke:

[Inner Dirt]

Ever do custom shop work? Use table saws, routers, shapers or industrial ovens? Does not sound like you have.

Employer-Reported Workplace Injuries and Illnesses – 2016

There were approximately 2.9 million nonfatal workplace injuries and illnesses reported by private industry employers in 2016, which occurred at a rate of 2.9 cases per 100 full-time equivalent (FTE) workers, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. (See www.bls.gov/web/osh/summ1_00.xlsx (http://www.bls.gov/web/osh/summ1_00.xlsx)
and www.bls.gov/web/osh/summ2_00.xlsx (http://www.bls.gov/web/osh/summ2_00.xlsx).) Private industry employers reported nearly 48,500 fewer nonfatal injury and illness cases in 2016 compared to a year earlier, according to estimates from the
Survey of Occupational Injuries and Illnesses (SOII).


You know diddly squat.I doubt you ever filled out workers compensation insurgence reports either If you ran a "tight ship" sounds like the Titanic.


Why don't you ever admit when you have stuck your foot in your mouth?
You said you "ran" the shop, then said you saw some awful accidents mostly caused by inattentiveness. Whose job is it to make sure the workforce pays attention at all times? You are right, I never filled out worker's compensation reports because no one on my watch needed more than a band aid.

I work with metal on the day job which is way more dangerous than woodworking. I have done plenty of woodworking on personal projects. I am positive I have used a lot more dangerous equipment than you have. I am a DIY guy that is pretty unmatched in the wide range of what I have done.

[Inner Dirt]

From my experience, a lot of those accidents are the result of employees failing to follow procedures and cutting corners.
When we would try to write up employees for not following the rules, guess who ALWAYS got involved and tried to stop us?

THe UAW.......:puke:

Fortunately I never worked in a union shop. I did work for an aerospace manufacturer that while non union had a lot of union like policies. I did get called in to human resources a few times for how I talked to people when I witnessed unsafe practices. If I got any back talk when bringing up safety issues I pretty much lost it.

[hcap]

From my experience, a lot of those accidents are the result of employees failing to follow procedures and cutting corners.
When we would try to write up employees for not following the rules, guess who ALWAYS got involved and tried to stop us?

THe UAW.......:puke:Tom have you ever worked in a custom shop environment? I have done both assembly line mass manufacturing an custom work.
Do you use mandatory table saw guards. Often some physically small projects can not be done with most guards designed for standard size items.

There are ways to remain safe even in these projects. However guards must be re-installed afterward. I've seen incompetent workers work without guards on a regular basis. Not pretty.

FYI

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration was established in 1971. Since then, OSHA and our state partners, coupled with the efforts of employers, safety and health professionals, unions and advocates, have had a dramatic effect on workplace safety. Fatality and injury rates have dropped markedly. Although accurate statistics were not kept at the time, it is estimated that in 1970 around 14,000 workers were killed on the job. That number fell to approximately 4,340 in 2009. At the same time, U.S. employment has almost doubled and now includes over 130 million workers at more than 7.2 million worksites. Since the passage of the OSH Act, the rate of reported serious workplace injuries and illnesses has declined from 11 per 100 workers in 1972 to 3.6 per 100 workers in 2009. OSHA safety and health standards, including those for trenching, machine guarding, asbestos, benzene, lead, and bloodborne pathogens have prevented +
countless work-related injuries, illnesses and deaths. This timeline highlights key milestones in occupational safety and health history since the creation of OSHA.

Besides the article I linked to, stated there was a financial gain to the use of regulations. That includes safety regulaions and the late 1800's and early 20th century horrors like the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire closed the door popularly on robber baron type worker abuse.

Read The Jungle a 1906 novel written by the American journalist and novelist Upton Sinclair (1878–1968). Sinclair wrote the novel to portray the harsh conditions and exploited lives of immigrants in the United States in Chicago and similar industrialized cities. His primary purpose in describing the meat industry and its working ...
‎Upton Sinclair · ‎The Jungle (1914 film) · ‎Federal Meat Inspection Act

[hcap]

I work with metal on the day job which is way more dangerous than woodworking. I have done plenty of woodworking on personal projects. I am positive I have used a lot more dangerous equipment than you have. I am a DIY guy that is pretty unmatched in the wide range of what I have done.
I don't believe your boasting and if you know anything about skilled crafstmen (having been one or so you claim) it is human nature to loose attention from time to time, unless your superman like the dork-in-chief.

Of course it takes self awareness to know when one is faltering and to take a brief break. Seeing you have none, I wouldn't stand within 20 feet of you using a hammer and nails let alone a table saw

[Inner Dirt]

I don't believe your boasting and if you know anything about skilled crafstmen (having been one or so you claim) it is human nature to loose attention from time to time, unless your superman like the dork-in-chief.

Of course it takes self awareness to know when one is faltering and to take a brief break. Seeing you have none, I wouldn't stand within 20 feet of you using a hammer and nails let alone a table saw

You are the one who stuck your foot in your mouth, not me. I am not boasting, just being truthful. Why do you have to always condescend to people and call names like a 5 year old? What part of my so called "boasting" do you not believe? I don't think I claimed to be an astronaut or a rocket scientist.

[hcap]

You are the one who stuck your foot in your mouth, not me. I am not boasting, just being truthful. Why do you have to always condescend to people and call names like a 5 year old? What part of my so called "boasting" do you not believe? I don't think I claimed to be an astronaut or a rocket scientist.You started this nonsense saying I did not supervise properly. You are the perfect candidate for "ignore" that ignorant a**hole

[Inner Dirt]

You are the one who stuck your foot in your mouth, not me. I am not boasting, just being truthful. Why do you have to always condescend to people and call names like a 5 year old? What part of my so called "boasting" do you not believe? I don't think I claimed to be an astronaut or a rocket scientist.


You started this nonsense saying I did not supervise properly. You are the perfect candidate for "ignore" that ignorant a**hole


You are the one who admitted to not supervising properly, saying there were terrible accidents under your watch. Once again you resort to grade school name calling as I caught you putting your foot in your mouth and calling you out on it. If you are calling me ignorant direct me to an I.Q. test and we will both take it and publish the results.

[hcap]

You are the one who admitted to not supervising properly, saying there were terrible accidents under your watch. Once again you resort to grade school name calling as I caught you putting your foot in your mouth and calling you out on it. If you are calling me ignorant direct me to an I.Q. test and we will both take it and publish the results.Did no such thing. You are lying . Let's stop this bullshit now

[boxcar]

Why don't you ever admit when you have stuck your foot in your mouth?
You said you "ran" the shop, then said you saw some awful accidents mostly caused by inattentiveness. Whose job is it to make sure the workforce pays attention at all times? You are right, I never filled out worker's compensation reports because no one on my watch needed more than a band aid.

I work with metal on the day job which is way more dangerous than woodworking. I have done plenty of woodworking on personal projects. I am positive I have used a lot more dangerous equipment than you have. I am a DIY guy that is pretty unmatched in the wide range of what I have done.

Admittedly, I haven't been following this thread very closely, but I know from years of experience dealing with Hcap that he's very susceptible to contracting that nasty hoof-'n- mouth disease. The reason, I have unlurked now in this thread is because my truth sniff detector was set off by what you wrote about "inattentiveness" being the primary source of accidents in Hcap's shop. And then later, Hcap said it was "human nature" I guess to become unfocused. And this brings me to a question or two for Mr. 'cap.

Mr. 'cap sir, how would more government regulations (which is the topic of this thread), correct the problem of "inattentiveness"? Or how would more government regs change human nature? :coffee:

[hcap]

Box, you know zip about everything. Re-lurk and reread

[boxcar]

Box, you know zip about everything. Re-lurk and reread

Your non-answer is proof-positive that to this day you suffer from CHRONIC hoof-'n-mouth disease.

Thanks for playing.

[mrhorseplayer]

most people that want more regulation or government control is so they can feel safe.

[hcap]

most people that want more regulation or government control is so they can feel safe.Some want it to utterly destroy stale com talking points about destroying government.

https://www.motherjones.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/blog_regulations_by_department_2007_20161.gif


HERE'S A CLASSIC:I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub....Grover Norquist

[Clocker]

most people that want more regulation or government control is so they can feel safe.
Many of us want less regulation or government control so that we can feel safe.

[Clocker]

Some want it to utterly destroy stale com talking points about destroying government.

https://www.motherjones.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/blog_regulations_by_department_2007_20161.gif




You don't find it the least bit ironic that you are trying to use government statistics to prove that the government is doing a good job? :faint:

[hcap]

You don't find it the least bit ironic that you are trying to use government statistics to proe that the government is doing a good job? :faint:Sure so what? I use government agencies to debunk looney tune climate change denial. This is from the article.....

"Republicans hate regulations. Donald Trump hates regulations. OMB chief Mick Mulvaney hates regulations. So it must have killed him to publish the most recent report to Congress on the costs and benefits of major regulations. Unfortunately, there’s a regulation that requires it, so the report was submitted once again. Here are the estimated net benefits (benefits minus costs) of major regulations over the past decade:"¹

Not all regulations have been DE-regulated yet.

[Inner Dirt]

You are the one who admitted to not supervising properly, saying there were terrible accidents under your watch. Once again you resort to grade school name calling as I caught you putting your foot in your mouth and calling you out on it. If you are calling me ignorant direct me to an I.Q. test and we will both take it and publish the results.


Did no such thing. You are lying . Let's stop this bullshit now


Where did I lie? That is what sucks about liberals, they post lies and misinformation and then the other liberals run with it as gospel. So I am calling you out again, explain where and how I lied. All you have is name calling, foul language, theories and skewed stats to make your points.

[hcap]

Where did I lie? That is what sucks about liberals, they post lies and misinformation and then the other liberals run with it as gospel. So I am calling you out again, explain where and how I lied. All you have is name calling, foul language, theories and skewed stats to make your points.It's been a while since I added anyone to my ignore list. You are a pathological liar and vain bossing fool, I deem you worthy.

[Inner Dirt]

It's been a while since I added anyone to my ignore list. You are a pathological liar and vain bossing fool, I deem you worthy.

You keep calling me a liar, but have no proof. You won't even post what you incur I am lying about. I am proud to make your ignore list. I wish you would just ignore everyone and go away. I have no problem with hearing the opposing view point as long is it is presented without all the condescension and venom that come from the likes of you. Due note I do not resort to the infantile name calling and cussing that you do.

[mrhorseplayer]

Sure so what? I use government agencies to debunk looney tune climate change denial. This is from the article.....

"Republicans hate regulations. Donald Trump hates regulations. OMB chief Mick Mulvaney hates regulations. So it must have killed him to publish the most recent report to Congress on the costs and benefits of major regulations. Unfortunately, there’s a regulation that requires it, so the report was submitted once again. Here are the estimated net benefits (benefits minus costs) of major regulations over the past decade:"¹

Not all regulations have been DE-regulated yet.



never heard anyone deny climate change cause the climate has been changing since day 1. Man made climate change is non existent.

Most people hate more government regulations.

[RunForTheRoses]

You keep calling me a liar, but have no proof. You won't even post what you incur I am lying about. I am proud to make your ignore list. I wish you would just ignore everyone and go away. I have no problem with hearing the opposing view point as long is it is presented without all the condescension and venom that come from the likes of you. Due note I do not resort to the infantile name calling and cussing that you do.

I would consider that nutjob putting you on ignore a badge of honor. Way to go!

[hcap]

I would consider that POS banning you a badge of honor. Way to go!Putiing some one on ignore does not "ban" anyone,except their posts to the ignor-er.

[boxcar]

Sure so what? I use government agencies to debunk looney tune climate change denial. This is from the article.....

"Republicans hate regulations. Donald Trump hates regulations. OMB chief Mick Mulvaney hates regulations. So it must have killed him to publish the most recent report to Congress on the costs and benefits of major regulations. Unfortunately, there’s a regulation that requires it, so the report was submitted once again. Here are the estimated net benefits (benefits minus costs) of major regulations over the past decade:"¹

Not all regulations have been DE-regulated yet.

Just look at what de-regulations and the tax cuts have done for the economy. :jump::jump: 'Nough said!

And Pinko Obama kept insisting that America's glory days were all behind us. :lol::lol:

But I bet you're like the Washington Post who truly wants to give Socialism a try, anyway. :bang::bang:

[hcap]

Just look at what de-regulations and the tax cuts have done for the economy. :jump::jump: 'Nough said!

And Pinko Obama kept insisting that America's glory days were all behind us. :lol::lol:

But I bet you're like the Washington Post who truly wants to give Socialism a try, anyway. :bang::bang:The economy the Turnip inherited from Obama was 10x better than the collapsing economy Obama inhered from G.W and the repugs.

Do you think safety regs should be cut completely. Have you ever used power tools in an industrial environment? Ever witnessed an accident?

[Inner Dirt]

The economy the Turnip inherited from Obama was 10x better than the collapsing economy Obama inhered from G.W and the repugs.

Do you think safety regs should be cut completely. Have you ever used power tools in an industrial environment? Ever witnessed an accident?

Accidents per man hour worked can be made a rarity if safety is given high priority, including immediate termination for high level safety violations and a no tolerance policy for anyone caught working under the obvious influence of drugs or alcohol. I worked at a place that at it's peak had 3,000 employees in an industrial manufacturing environment, the "days since a lost time accident" posters that were all over the place usually hit 100-300 days before going back to zero. The most frequent lost time accident was someone needing a couple stitches. 95% of those were avoidable, someone deciding to grab something sharp without using a pair of gloves or a hand tool.




Once again the fact you witness so many accidents speaks volumes of the workers you have been around and the management of the workers.