Could you make a living at the track?

[dav4463]

For those of us who do not make our major income at the track, could you make a living at the track if you lost your job tomorrow and it was the only option ? If so, how would you go about it ? You would obviously need to improve your record keeping and make smart bets all the time. Would you stick with win only, or try to do it with exotics, or a combination ? Would you concentrate on one track or circuit ?

[Zman179]

Could I make a living at the track? Gambling? HELL NO.

[pmd62ndst]

I'd like to think that I could. Why don't I quit my job and do it then? Cause I think I would work more hours over a week studying and placing bets then the ~40 hours I contribute at my job right now.

It's also different giving up your entire weekend to the races, not because you'd >like< to, but because you >have< to.

My statistics professor told me stories about how he made a living playing blackjack. He spent nearly 14 hours a day at the tables and couldn't take it anymore after a few months. Can you imagine making a living like that?

Not for me.

PMD

[ceejay]

Could I make a living at the track? Maybe. Would I want to? No! I love my day job and I think that most of the fun at racing would be lost if I had to win.

[46zilzal]

You have to have the iron will and killer instinct that belong to a stock trader..hard, but not impossilbe...I will have to find out if I can soon. Job is ending
Tried it one Summer in college but bailed out after three weeks. Back then I thought I knew it all...was I surprised!!

If you had a trusted GROUP, it would work: exotics at the right place could keep you going but the MINIMUM bankroll would be 10 grand..MINIMUM

[fmhealth]

I have proven beyond any doubt whatsoever that I CANNOT make a living at the track. I have a legacy of 45 years of non-stop LOSING. Probaly around $250,000.

Being semi-retired for the past 10 years, since I was 48. I have ample time to spend at tracks around the country. Last week at Delmar, next week at Calder. Home track is AP where I attend about 150 times/year. To be honest, I don't find much enjoyment in the experience at this point in my life. The meager amounts I bet (usually$12.00/race) don't affect my lifestyle one way or the other. Win about 20% of the time. Lose a few dollars on most trips.

I really don't think it's the losing that has impacted me (lost A LOT more on the Dot-BOMBS) as much as the overall feeling of disrespect radiated by most tracks. Even though I have passes at virtually every track in the country. The onerous admission fees
strike me as blatantly unfair to the general public. T/Os that continue to increase, rampant drug abuse, questionable Stewards. Coupled with diminishing field size, "champions" that retire early, concession prices that have no reflection at all as to the quality of the product. Continually erodes the entire feeling of sheer exhilaration I used to feel everytime I went to the track.

Perhaps as we age, we tend to look at our hobbies from a different & more objective perspective. Today was a good example. Had the DD at Monmouth, lost the first two at SAR and won one of the first three at AP. Total loss $14.00. Spend time with my buddies, who are as disilustioned as I am. Hit the road & spent the rest of the day in the local library.

Don't know why I think anyone will find the preceeding the least bit interesting. But your question struck a chord in the deep recesses of my mind. Great sport that has been unmercifully beaten into the ground by short-sighted executives who take their customers for granted. Don't have the slightest idea how to market their product and consider us 'cappers merely interchangeable commodities. Perfect blueprint of an industry that is suffering from some serious systemic problems.

[keilan]

– I enjoyed your post immensely, I’ve known guys like you and always appreciate their honesty. If I ever bump into you at a racetrack I’ll buy the beer. :) :)

[Light]

It's amazing what human's can come up with when survival is at stake.

The key is,If it's a full time job,I would have the advantage of putting alot more time into horseracing regarding my selections and researching what works. So it wouldn't be out of the question for an experienced player.

But who wants to take that gamble when you have a solid day job and a wife and kids to support?

[betchatoo]

Got injured at work one summer about 20 years ago and decided to see if I could make a living at the track. Over the course of about 14 weeks I made $60,000. But in truth, it wasn't fun by the end, it was stressful.

I then took the money I made and bought my first business. Lost everything I invested and more after about 18 months. Maybe I'd have been better off sticking with the races.

[dav4463]

14 weeks....$60,000 !!! I think that would be fun no matter how stressful !

[betchatoo]

Originally posted by dav4463
14 weeks....$60,000 !!! I think that would be fun no matter how stressful !

Made $30,000 one day. Hit a $26,000 pick six and about $5,000 in perephrial bets. Minus the $1,000 or so I invested that day.

[alysheba88]

I think I could make a living. But not the money I make now from my job. Probably not even half of what I make and would have to put in more hours

[keenang]

FM HEALTH HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. EVERY THING HE SAID IS TRUE, WE ARE WATCHING A SPORT DYING A SLOW DEATH.

[alysheba88]

Dying a slow death? All I see is record handle every year

[PaceAdvantage]

Yup, handle keeps going up and up and up. If this is death, then I say to the horseracing industry - you keep on dying!

[alysheba88]

Lets not forget great tv ratings or attendance at the TC events either. Clearly signs of a dying sport

[racko]

FM HEALTH has it right. They kill the live experience. Handle-up, I think that has a lot to do with the internet. TV ratings up, see previous sentence.

[alysheba88]

The live experience is great too. Attendance is down most places and unlikely to come back much. But thats due to all the other wagering options more than anything.

In any case, not a dying sport

[timtam]

Sure anybody can make a living at the racetrack. As long as you have a large enough bankroll. Due column wagering and lots of green cold cash. I once saw a system which all you played was the horse going off closest to 7/2. They called your upcoming hit as deferred income. Deferred income hmmm. I think my income is deferred in the 30 yrs i'm playing the races. Now where is the window to cash in the deferred income I have coming?

[JohnGalt1]

By playing horses full time we also loss benefits from former emplyers like 401k's and health insurance. Additional stress I don't need now.

[DJofSD]

I have in the last 14 years made my living at the track on two instances. One time for a 6 month stretch another time for a little over 9 months. The best part was being able to go to DMR every single day of the meeting. The worse part was having to work at it every single day (the grind).

I was then single. For those that do it while supporting a family, you get my total respect.

Why did I not continue instead of going back to an office job? I made money at the track but no where near as much as I could in my area of expertise. I would have had to go way outside of my comfort zone to approach my salary.

How do you know if you can give it a shot and not crash and burn? Besides having the records to prove to yourself you show a flat bet profit, you have to have the right frame of mind. While Doc Sartin is reviled in some quarters, I would credit him for pointing out the importance paying attention to the psychological aspect of not just handicapping but betting your picks. Who else besides Doc and Mark Cramer has addressed this aspect of the game?

Do you know yourself well enough to know how you will handle a losing streak? That tough loss because of a DQ? Are you going to go crazy betting anything and everything after you cash that sizeable exotic ticket?

In a sense, you'll neven know unless you try.

DJofSD

[First_Place]

Not "could" but do. I don't mean to brag but it's the truth. I'm single, don't own a home, live a simple life style, don't have any credit bills simply because I pay cash for my cars, appliances, etc.

How much do I make? Anywhere from $500 to $1500 a week on average which is not really that much money in this day and age. And sometimes much more. I could make more money but I don't want to burn my brain out handicapping races full time.

Right now I go down to my nearest simulcast facility (30 miles away) 3 times a week--because in the enlightened state of New Jersey (read: corrupt) it's ILLEGAL to place a bet on a horse race outside of the state-approved facility such as a casino or horse race track. I spend roughly 8 to 10 hrs. a day between days that I go to the simulcast facility at Freehold Raceway (a harness track) to handicap via pen and paper the 3 to 4 tracks that I concentrate on. So, in effect, I have a full time job, 6 days worth.

I don't play to win. My specialty is the Tri & Superfecta. I couldn't do it by playing to win because I'm not that good when it comes to picking the winner. But zero in on a key horse (thanks Mikey P.) and narrow the field down to the top 4 or 5 horses that'll finish in the top 3 or 4 positions in the Trifecta and Superfecta respectively, yepper's that me.

And yes, it's a lot of work--and I love it. Beats getting up in the morning to an alarm clock, forcing yourself to awaken via a cup of strong coffee (does wonders to your health over a 30 to 40 year time span), fight traffic and pushy, obnoxious drivers on the road as well as having to deal with an SOB boss and/or some assh*le co-worker(s) and fighting traffic and more obnoxious people on the way home.

Yes siree, nothing like being your own boss.

But it's no cakewalk. No sir. But I love it.

FP

[timtam]

First Place,

How many combinations do you play in the tri and superfecta?

Doesn't betting those types of exotics lead to larger dry spells?

Do you limit your choice of races to a certain number of horses?

How much money do you wager in a day per race on the average?

[Buckeye]

Bravo to you First Place!

Good job. I would like to meet you sometime at the Freehold Raceway. As far as these NJ legislators are concerned, it's beyond belief that there is NO phone wagering and no youbet access in our State.

[First_Place]

For trifecta it's usually four horses. For example:

Key Horse plus horses B, C over B, C, D = 4 combinations x base wager (usually $2.00). (Or, KH plus B, C, D over B, C, D = 6 combinations). Then I'll re-key it again and put the KH in the 2nd slot (and sometimes the 3rd position, it all depends on the race). And sometimes I'll add another horse ("E") in the 3rd slot. It all depends on the size of the field, etc. Cost of trifecta wager using the above method is (using $2.00 base) $8.00 per leg, i.e., $24.00 if I re-key and put my KH in all three slots. If I play a trifecta where the minimum wager is $1.00 then my cost is half as much and so is the payout.

Superfecta = Key Horse plus four other contenders. For example:

KH/B,C/B,C,D/C,D,E,F = 11 combinations x base wager (usually $2.00) equals total $22.00 dollars for first leg. Then I'll re-key and put the KH in the second slot. If I'm fairly confident that my KH won't finish worse than second that'll be it and my total expenditure will be $44.00. If I felt I needed to add my KH in the 3rd slot, then it would be an expenditure of $66.00 dollars. If it's necessary for a fourth place for my KH then I don't really have a very good opinion of the race and don't play it--although I have done so in the past. Not a bad investment for $66.00 in a race such as the first race at Calder Race Course (which I didn't play, but usually do, because I took Monday off--lazy ass!) on August 23rd which, in a seven horse field, rewarded some hardworking (lucky?) handicappers with a $1,031.60 and $14,591.20 payday in the trifecta and superfecta respectively!

Yes, I can save money and usually pull a superfecta win off using only four horses but many times that fifth horse will beat your fourth choice by a very narrow margin. So to me that fifth horse is worth the added cost.

Larger dry spells? Not the way I analyze and play it.

I prefer not to play fields larger than 10 because usually I need a sixth horse and that gets to be expensive.

How much money do I wager per day? Well, it all depends because no two days are alike. It all depends on how many races I wager on. I'll wager (usually) $24.00 - $36.00 and $66.00 per race on the trifecta and superfecta respectively. And it all depends on how the day goes. If I miss, for example, three trifectas in a row (usually an expenditure between $72.00 to $108.00 dollars for all three races) then I'm done. It's not my day and I get the heck out of the track real quick. Thankfully three in a row is a rarity.

FP

[First_Place]

Thank you, Buckeye. Like I said, it's no cakewalk and to reiterate what Charles Carroll said in the forward to Michael Pizzolla's Handicapping Magic book: "successful horse race bettors work for a living." And it is work, mentally exhausting, but I love it. And it's definitely better than making $8.50 an hour (like my last job used to pay) and being my own boss. I'll never go back to work for anyone else if I can help it.

See ya at Freehold!

FP

[First_Place]

Slight correction. The first race @ Calder was on Tuesday, August 24th. When I said I took Monday off I meant I took the day off from handicapping the next day's card.

FP

[JustMissed]

Originally posted by First_Place

Larger dry spells? Not the way I analyze and play it.

How much money do I wager per day? Well, it all depends because no two days are alike. It all depends on how many races I wager on. I'll wager (usually) $24.00 - $36.00 and $66.00 per race on the trifecta and superfecta respectively. And it all depends on how the day goes. If I miss, for example, three trifectas in a row (usually an expenditure between $72.00 to $108.00 dollars for all three races) then I'm done. It's not my day and I get the heck out of the track real quick. Thankfully three in a row is a rarity.
FP

You also posted:"How much do I make? Anywhere from $500 to $1500 a week on average which is not really that much money in this day and age. And sometimes much more. I could make more money but I don't want to burn my brain out handicapping races full time. "

First Place, my question to you is something I am always curious about from professional players.

If I read your post correctly, the following are true:

1. You net between $2000 to $6,000 a month.

2. You don't have long losing streaks

3. You have sufficient bankroll

4. Your unit bet is usually $2 and you usually play one(1) unit

My question is, why don't you increase your bet to 2 units, then 3 units, then 4 units, etc?

You said "I could make more money but I don't want to burn my brain out handicapping races full time. "

If you simply increased your number of units bet, you could easily double or more you net winnings without any additional handicapping.

I have asked this question of many players and never gotten a sufficient answer.

If anyone else cares to respond, I would be happy to hear others thoughts also.

Thanks,

JM

[Milleruszk]

Originally posted by Buckeye

As far as these NJ legislators are concerned, it's beyond belief that there is NO phone wagering and no youbet access in our State. [/B]

It's the damn Casino lobby in NJ that blocks all other increases in gambling in the State. If they aren't in on it they block it! and they have the votes to do it. I also find it unbelievable that I cannot open a wagering account with TVG or any other internet service. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the crooks in Trenton to change the law.

Tom

[bettheoverlay]

There was an article in last weeks Racing Form that internet gambling may be up and runing by Oct 15 in Jersey. Phone betting as well. I'll believe it when I see it. I wonder whether we will be able to use any internet betting service like we used to, or will have to subscribe to the Jersey/Philly Park version.

[NoDayJob]

Originally posted by JustMissed

My question is, why don't you increase your bet to 2 units, then 3 units, then 4 units, etc?

You said "I could make more money but I don't want to burn my brain out handicapping races full time. "

If you simply increased your number of units bet, you could easily double or more you net winnings without any additional handicapping.

I have asked this question of many players and never gotten a sufficient answer.

If anyone else cares to respond, I would be happy to hear others thoughts also.

Thanks,

JM

Every handicapper, whether professional or recreational, has a comfort level. Once that level is reached it's very hard to go to the next plateau. It requires too much discipline. Most handicappers fade when confronted with the challege.

NDJ

[Zman179]

Let me add a little something with substance in addition to my prior "HELL NO" remark.

I simply could not handle the pressure required with HAVING to win at the races. It is bad enough that I am currently going through an absolutely terrible, and prolongated, losing streak and currently have zero confidence in my handicapping and betting skills right now, and I could only imagine how the rotten feelings that I am currently feeling right now would only be multiplied tenfold if put into a position where this game would have to become my income. In fact, I am looking to curtail my wagering in this game let alone add to it.

All I can say is Thank God that I have a job that I absolutely love that pays me a very nice salary.

[JustMissed]

Originally posted by NoDayJob
Every handicapper, whether professional or recreational, has a comfort level. Once that level is reached it's very hard to go to the next plateau. It requires too much discipline. Most handicappers fade when confronted with the challege.

NDJ

NDJ, I would agree that to be true of recreational players but find that hard to believe of a professional.

If that is true about comfort level, my barber would still be charging $2 for a haircut instead of $7, I could get a shirt laundered for 50 cents and my lawyer wouldn't be charging $225/hr instead of the $100 he was getting just out of law school.

I can't think of any business person that doesn't attempt to increase their unit profit.

Volume increases I can understand because of constraints of facilities, time, working capital, etc..

I just never understood how going from a $2 tri ticket to a $4 ticket or going from a $300 win to a $500 win ticket could suddenly causes a winning system to turn into a loosing system.

Thanks for your response,

JM

[InsideThePylons-MW]

JM,

It's just another excuse used to explain failure/underacheivement.

Nobody that bets $2 tri's and consistently makes $500 to $1500 a week, wouldn't want to increase their wager to $5 and make $1250 to $3750 per week.

Another illogical thought process that makes zero sense.

The only thing that should stop him from increasing is pool size limitations. At his range, that is obviously not a problem.

[Tom]

I was at Saratoga yesterday wtih the PA bunch, and, like Mark Cramer, a revelation came to me in the men's room....I COULD make a living at the track. It was so simple, I don't why I didn't realize it befroe.
I just know that I have the skills and patience to make a living there.......handing out paper towels in the men's room, just like the guy that just sold me one for a dollar! Now, the get some of is market share, I will have to offer something more, so I will also post my selections on the towels I sell ( although there is another paper product nearby that might be more appropriate!)
I'm there, dudes!
:D

[DJofSD]

I just never understood how going from a $2 tri ticket to a $4 ticket or going from a $300 win to a $500 win ticket could suddenly causes a winning system to turn into a loosing system.


You've missed the point. Entirely.

If you think that by merely increasing your bet size that a method for finding winnners is going to go south, you don't understand there's two different aspects to the game: finding who you want to bet and how you're going to bet them.

Some call it comfort zone or level. Perhaps you don't have any problem betting a large amount into a race, so it doesn't exist for you. It does for others. It does for me. Can I bet $200 on a race - yes. Can I bet more than that, say as much as my mortgage payment, no - at least not now.

It might seem trite but nonetheless, here's some words of wisdom from Inspector "Dirty" Harry Callahan: "A man has got to know his limitations."

DJofSD

[JustMissed]

Originally posted by DJofSD
You've missed the point. Entirely.

If you think that by merely increasing your bet size that a method for finding winnners is going to go south, you don't understand there's two different aspects to the game: finding who you want to bet and how you're going to bet them.

Some call it comfort zone or level. Perhaps you don't have any problem betting a large amount into a race, so it doesn't exist for you. It does for others. It does for me. Can I bet $200 on a race - yes. Can I bet more than that, say as much as my mortgage payment, no - at least not now.

It might seem trite but nonetheless, here's some words of wisdom from Inspector "Dirty" Harry Callahan: "A man has got to know his limitations."

DJofSD

DJ-Please don't talk down to me. I certainly know the difference between contender selection and betting decision.

In my post I said:[Quote]I just never understood how going from a $2 tri ticket to a $4 ticket or going from a $300 win to a $500 win ticket could suddenly causes a winning system to turn into a loosing system. [EndQuote]

I never said increasing bet size would cause a system to go south. I said that it should not cause a winning system to to turn into a loosing system.

You need to work on your reading comprehension.

JM

[DJofSD]

My apologies. You didn't say upping your bet amount would turn a winning approach into a losing one.

DJofSD

[JustMissed]

Originally posted by DJofSD
My apologies. You didn't say upping your bet amount would turn a winning approach into a losing one.

DJofSD

Thanks DJ. Sometimes the threads get hard to follow.

JM
:)

[Bill Cullen]

If you've ever done social work or volunteer work on the street, you meet a fair number of homeless or semi-homless folks who used to be guys with families who thought they could beat the races.

When I think of the question that started this thread, I think of those guys. When I think of what responsibility the tracks and casinos have in this state of affairs, I think of the credit card machines and the ATM machines on their premises.

Just some sobering food for thought.

"There but for the grace of God...."

Bill C

[Larry Hamilton]

So, the industries associated with gambling hold the responsiblitiy of individuals who gamble when they shouldn't? That's like blaming the gun for a murder or an SUV for the accidient.

In America, we have the inalienable right to act as stupid as we choose if we are not breaking laws. Gamblers who can't weigh risk and reward or who can't afford to play the game have found their way to do stupid stuff.

Of those who play and lose, I admire them for reaching beyond their abilities but I do not feel sorry for them--they have chosen their lot. I also appreciate their support of my leisures.

If their weakness and limitations bothers you, give some back.

[Bill Cullen]

Originally posted by Larry Hamilton
So, the industries associated with gambling hold the responsiblitiy of individuals who gamble when they shouldn't? That's like blaming the gun for a murder or an SUV for the accidient.

In America, we have the inalienable right to act as stupid as we choose if we are not breaking laws. Gamblers who can't weigh risk and reward or who can't afford to play the game have found their way to do stupid stuff.

Of those who play and lose, I admire them for reaching beyond their abilities but I do not feel sorry for them--they have chosen their lot. I also appreciate their support of my leisures.

If their weakness and limitations bothers you, give some back.

Your preaching to the choir, Jack.

You're response to my post is a good example of a common practice on this board: you read into things that aren't there to begin with.

And your compassion is particularly compelling.

Bill C

[Larry Hamilton]

I have no compassion for those who bet and lose. If they don't lose, how am I going to win? I have only one purpose for playing the horses and that is to take as much money from those willing to throw it away as I can. No other reason for playing the horses makes any sense to me.

[Larry Hamilton]

I may have read your post incorrectly. I only read it 10 times.

If you've ever done social work or volunteer work on the street, you meet a fair number of homeless or semi-homless folks who used to be guys with families who thought they could beat the races.

When I think of the question that started this thread, I think of those guys. When I think of what responsibility the tracks and casinos have in this state of affairs, I think of the credit card machines and the ATM machines on their premises.

Just some sobering food for thought.

Paragraph one. Your point appears to be that some of the homless on the street are there as a result of gambling away their income on the horses

Paragraph two. You point appears to be that banks and casinos are responsible for the situation in paragraph one.

Taken together, the paragraphs reek of liberal feel good ism. The point I was trying to make is those gamblers are there by choice. They act by choice. They are responsible for their own actions.

[46zilzal]

Who's money are we taking home when we win? It doesn't come from some federal program.

If folks are so ill-prepared for the battle, let them LEARN the hard way: it takes a lot of hard work and experience to get to the break even level. This game is NO mystery: it has logic involved, not just luck.

Most difficult thing, is to find a venue where you can be ahead enough (consistency in handicapping) and there is enough MONEY in the pools to cover the losing bets.

HINT: these are RARELY the name courses

[emile]

Originally posted by JustMissed
You also posted:"How much do I make? Anywhere from $500 to $1500 a week on average which is not really that much money in this day and age. And sometimes much more. I could make more money but I don't want to burn my brain out handicapping races full time. "

First Place, my question to you is something I am always curious about from professional players.

If I read your post correctly, the following are true:

1. You net between $2000 to $6,000 a month.

2. You don't have long losing streaks

3. You have sufficient bankroll

4. Your unit bet is usually $2 and you usually play one(1) unit

My question is, why don't you increase your bet to 2 units, then 3 units, then 4 units, etc?

You said "I could make more money but I don't want to burn my brain out handicapping races full time. "

If you simply increased your number of units bet, you could easily double or more you net winnings without any additional handicapping.

I have asked this question of many players and never gotten a sufficient answer.

If anyone else cares to respond, I would be happy to hear others thoughts also.

Thanks,

JM

[emile]

You are so right.
Start with a $200 bankroll and bet $2 to win.When your bankroll is at $300,BET $3 TO WIN. wHEN AT $400 bet at $4 and so on...
This way,you will know if you can beat this game.

[alysheba88]

Everyone has their own "choking point". Acadamic types like to think this is a souless game where "pro's" have no emotion. Its very easy to say, well if you make money betting $200 a race why not increase your bets. It aint that easy and anyone who says it is is wrong or ill informed

[GameTheory]

The amount you can bet without adversely affecting the odds (esp. on non-favorites) is also surprisingly low. You can't just bet ever increasing amounts with a corresponding increase in profit -- it doesn't work like that...

[emile]

Originally posted by alysheba88
Everyone has their own "choking point". Acadamic types like to think this is a souless game where "pro's" have no emotion. Its very easy to say, well if you make money betting $200 a race why not increase your bets. It aint that easy and anyone who says it is is wrong or ill informed
How can you bid on a $200 basis before you can prove yourself that you can win on a $2 base in a long term?

[JackS]

Too easy to "choke" if your playing beyond your means. Each bet made is made with the understanding that the bet made has a chance at more than resonable odds. Using the same reasoning, it must be assumed that the majority of the bets we make are doomed to fail. We count on the small %age of wins at favorable odds to carry us into the "win column". For me losing races are much more common than winning races therefore, any loss is not considered an important factor to my bottomline. I could not play this way if each race were a "go for broke" situation.
Playing comfortably within the limits of your income and keeping a worst case outcome for any single betting day in mind and accepting these ocaissional occurances as normal goes a long way to enjoying and profitting from the horses.
Lets get drunk on that rare big hit in which profits are huge. Lets not get drunk because we lost all of our money.