View Full Version : "Who's the best"
I just purchesed a software program that needs a" Comma Delimited" file. I can use in this program with Thoroughbred Sports network , Computer Sports world , Brienet, and Trackmaster. Comma Delimited files
Which one of the above will give the best infomation for me to use.
Any advise will be appreciated
FortuneHunter
03-04-2002, 12:03 PM
We have had good luck with BRISnet. Well established, strong following. Will be here next year. IMO, best Speed and Pace Figures. $1.00 per racecard.
But it sounds like your program only uses generic info anyway, since it takes the other suppliers datafiles.
sq764
03-04-2002, 12:10 PM
I use TSN files, and they are only $.50
BillW
03-04-2002, 12:12 PM
rocajack,
I can fill in a couple of blanks...
TSN: 50 cents Bris: $1.00
The Bris files have a few extra #'s in it that the TSN files don't (Bris Prime Power for instance). With a commercial program this probably is of no interest to you as it is probably using only data common to all files. The quality is not bad and Bris (which also owns TSN) is responsive to customer correspondence. By quality, I mean it is extremely rare that a file is corrupt, not that a beaten length figure may be off by a quarter here and there. (I think all DRF/Equibase data would have difficulty passing a strict integrity test i.e. NASA data to put a probe in orbit around Jupiter is a bit more accurate)
Don't mix the 2 though, in the same database as the speed/pace figs are not the same.
Haven't used CSW in about 6 years and never used Trackmaster.
Fh,
Believe it or not. I have run my program in all that I mention and the final ratings are very deferent. I thought maybe some gave more accurate information than others. I don't have the time to research. I was hopeing someone had a data base on these guys.
Lefty
03-04-2002, 12:35 PM
Hey, i'm nosey, er, curious. What prgm is that that uses all those diff. vendors? Only prgm I know that will do that is Contenders 10.
My guess is it doesn't matter which vendor you use so long as your consistent in your choice. I think .50 is twice as good as 1.00 because it's half as much.
I KNEW those teachers were wrong in my youth only giving me c's in math. I KNEW IT!
Big Bill
03-04-2002, 01:18 PM
Lefty,
I think Carroll's Handicapping Speed software program uses most all of those mentioned in rocojack's post.
Big bill
charleslanger
03-04-2002, 01:29 PM
another difference between tsn - bris is that tsn won't give you the DRF daily variant. CSW hasn't done horses for years now, or so i thought. ITS & TM figure out their own daily variants. Final recommendation:
Bris(much better pricing than ITS) if you can bet thru Brisbet because they'll have periodic specials where your monthly downloads will be free or discounted, and you can use their free pp gen software to print out pp's with those same data files, or
for unlimited downloading, Trackmaster- but i wouldn't directly download their comma-delimited files. Instead i would obtain their free program which is fairly sophisticated and also prints out pp's- and utilize an internal utility it contains that converts their exe data file to a comma-delimited format.
In no case whatsoever should you ever mix data provider files! Keep them separate in multiple installs of your software perhaps, or delete from your database and start all over.
Charlesslanger.
I was informed earlier that Trackmaster contains the most accurate information that is in a comma delimited file.
please correct me if the above is wrong
Thank you
FortuneHunter
03-04-2002, 03:29 PM
Here is the link to Brisnet DRF File field explanation,
http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/static.cgi?page=drfsff
TSN should have something similar to look at.
I would bet that TSN doesn't have as much data per entry. But if your program doesn't use it, who care's.
IMO, BRISnet Speed and Pace figures are the best in the industry, bar none.
Don't mix and match sources. Maybe PA will tell you his story circa 1999.
F.H
Thats what I want. You guys, Your opinion. I have an account with Bris but wanted other people impute
Thank you sir.
BillW
03-04-2002, 03:55 PM
FH (or anybody)
Have you ever compared the spd/pace figs in the TSN files to Bris? Although different, are they of the same relative quality?
I too like the Bris figs ... IV analysis shows them to be quite good.
Bill
Lefty
03-04-2002, 06:11 PM
I think you're right, Bill, about Carroll's Spd prgm. Fairly recently they've added those vendors besides I.T.S. and I'm pretty sure, if memory serves, that you have to pay extra for ea. vedor module.
I think Rocajack has Contenders 10. Roca?
Sorry Lefty, You did want to know the software. I did not want this to look like I was pushing a product.
The software is new version of A+ 7.0 I don't think it takes ITS.
Lefty
03-04-2002, 10:19 PM
Yeah, I have A+ 6 haven't upgraded yet. But unless it's a recent development it didn't take TSN files; I asked him for it so maybe he finally got arouind to it.
BillW
03-04-2002, 10:39 PM
Guys,
The Bris and TSN files are the same format with the exception of the few unique data fields ... Bris prime power/Drf SR/TV are a few that come to mind. If the author is using the least common denominator, he would have had to take specific steps to prevent use of one or the other (Possibly by agreement with Bris???)
My parser will accept both without any effort to recognize one or the other. Some fields just come up blank.
Bill
GR1@HTR
03-04-2002, 11:23 PM
I think the answer you are looking for is the one that performs best with your new program. And that answer can only come from those who have used A+ in the past and have tested it. Think you will find a large difference in results by using one data provider vs another. Although I am not an HSH user, I think they are a good example of what happens when you switch data providers. If I am correct, originally it was designed for ITS data files and then when the switch was made to HDW, some changes needed to be made for optimal performance. Perhaps some of the developers or venders might have clearer comment.
You are so right I can not believe the defferent final ratings I get with each other's files Example, BRIS file top ranked horse could be Axcis 4th choice or they could agree on the top two ranking but in opposite order 1-2 2-1 only in about 3 out of ten races do they agree on the same top choice and those seem to be short fields and low odd horses. It is the same program . so it must be defferent information,Speed ratings or something that generates the final rating . I guess if I called and asked they are going to tell me that there files are the best and yet one link said that the all get there information from the same source, Equibase
Please, excuse the spelling I am rushing this [ Do any boards have spell check.]
Lefty
03-05-2002, 12:07 PM
Rocajack, why don;t you e-mail Mike at A+ and ask him about these differences? He should know better than anyone.
And then report back here if you would.
lefty, I did contact Mike, He uses Axcis. He seems to feel that it evens out in the long run.
You have 6.0 what is the best way to win with A+ the thing I don't like is that it makeing you bet all races .I wish there was away to just pick the right spots. Yur thought please or your e-mail or phone number
Lefty
03-05-2002, 08:30 PM
Rocajack, I used it a little while but prob. didn't give it a fair chance. Why? because i'm a software junkie and started playing with other software. If memory serves, I just looked at top 3 and played 2 best odds. Collected some nice longshots.
Oh, BTW, Mike just contacted me with the answer to a question:A+ does not use TSN files.
Yeah Lefty, I found out that TSN early program is used to add the program numbers and the morning line to A+ that is left out by Axcis[ Trackmaster ]
andicap
03-05-2002, 10:33 PM
I did only a few days tests with A+ based on loading the past races that they give you. It was a chore so I gave up, but in my limited tests, I did OK betting only overlays. Not all overlays of course, but I think Lefty's right in keeping with top 3. But I wouldn't necessarily bet top 2 odds because they may not be overlays.
Unfortunately, printing out all those sheets and testing the odds is unwieldly. ALSO, A+ does not recalcuate its odds after scratches, so you've got to do so yourself which is only an estimate and time consuming.
Lefty
03-06-2002, 12:50 PM
I like to bet 2 best odds with the caveat one must be at least 7-1 unless i'm getting two 5-1 shots. Kinda like the two odds to add up to 9 or better. Anyway bet two best cause I gave up on trying to define overlays yrs ago. Every pgm with an odds line or every person using their criteria will define ovelays differently. So what is an overlay? I don't know.
Lefty, I guess with A+ an overlay is any odds that are higher than his. I may need to be corrected on that..... A+ had 4 winners on top at Aqueduct and all very short prices. Naturally I bet the overlays and lost.
Lefty
03-06-2002, 08:59 PM
Roca, you misunderstand. Yes, any price above oddsline an overlay on A+. But IS IT REALLY? Don't know and never did any good with anybody's definition of overlays within the context of their oddsline. They are all different? So who's to say what really IS an overlay.
Lefty,
I guess you are right .Overlays are in the eyes of the beholder.
BillW
03-06-2002, 11:58 PM
I would also content that correct overlays are in the eyes of a winner:)
The way I see it is that an odds line is a tool to qualtify how we feel about a horses value in a race. without one how does one make a decision as to what odds a horse makes a good wager?
Bill
anotherdave
03-07-2002, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by BillW
I would also content that correct overlays are in the eyes of a winner:)
The way I see it is that an odds line is a tool to qualtify how we feel about a horses value in a race. without one how does one make a decision as to what odds a horse makes a good wager?
Bill
Good point. In fact I would argue that even a winning horseplayer that doesn't make up an odds line really does use the concept.
If they bet a horse at 4-1, they must consider it an overlay (good bet). Therefore, using their years of experience, they have decided that the odds on the horse are better they should be. (They have set fair odds intuitively on the horse of something less than 4-1)
AD
Good point, Anotherdave, Bill W..
Once a link said, If I collect more money after the race than I gave at the window before the race that's an overlay to me. Maybe I should tell myself If he not 4-1 or better I an't betting.
karlskorner
03-07-2002, 10:24 AM
Rocajack:
Correct me if I am wrong, are you saying if your choice is not 4-1 or better you will not make a wager ? This is something I just cannot understand.
Yesterday a "computer player" with a laptop sat with me at GP and we both had about the same choices (I never asked what program he was using) but he refused to wager unless the odds were better than 4-1. Out of the 9 races, he passed 6 races because the odds were not in his favor, he bet the other 3 and lost. Meanwhile the 6 that didn't meet his standards paid $6.20, $5.20. $7.20, $9.80, $5.60 and $4.00. I nearly DOUBLED the money I walked in with (I also lost the same3 races) and even though he had the same winners I had, he refused to wager. He confirmed we both had the same selctions, I went to the window and ironpants sat it out.
I guess it's just one of the mysterys I will never undestand.
Karl
_____________________________________________
Never take investment advice frome someone who's working
BillW
03-07-2002, 11:34 AM
AD,
Yes I was thinking the same thing. If someone has a clear picture of a value of a horse in his/her head an odds line exists, just maybe not expressed in terms of numbers.
karlskorner,
The only thing I can think of is that an inexperienced handicapper is trying to compensate for their inaccruacy (in an inaccurate manner unfortunately:) ).
As an inexperienced handicapper (and believe me I speak from experience there) I usually tack on "a few" to compensate i.e. 3:2 -> 2:1
2:1 -> 3:1 etc. Therefore if my line is low I'm providing myself a margin. If my odds are correct, i'm sitting there on my hands while you clean up :rolleyes: .
Bill
Lefty
03-07-2002, 12:41 PM
Karl, I usually pass those short prices myself. Once in a while I wished I would have played them but, overall I can't hit enough of them to make a profit. So I have to get a price.
If you hit enough of them to make a profit, great. just doesn't work for me; so I rarely play anything under 4-1. Sometimes in a 2 horse play i'll take 3-1 on the lesser choice but then I demand 7-1 or better on other one.
KarlKonner, Bil W and lefty .
Believe me I respect each of our thoughts on overlays. But answer me this. I love a horse He is 2-1 to 4-1 I will bet $20.00 to win. If he is 10-1 or higher I want to back down to$5.00 to win.Why do i think like that ? One link said, Horse is 2-1 you should bet $2.00 if 10-1 Bet $10.00. I think there is something wrong with that too.
anotherdave
03-07-2002, 02:01 PM
I think that everyone has to bet on the situation in a way that fits their personality. For me I bet the same amount to win on every bet - less stress. There are occasional times where I double down, but I have learned when to do that.
For my personality I find it is easier to bet the same amount - it is hard enough to decide whether to wager or not without throwing in the uncertainty of how much to bet. This is in line with Glendon Jones' thoughts in "Horse racing Logic". He says that a professional hates to be confused with 2 minutes to post. Me too. I make the decision whether to bet and I already know how much I will if I do.
AD
karlskorner
03-07-2002, 03:37 PM
Rocajack;
A quote from Charles Carroll's book "Handicapping Speed"
that I read 10 years ago and agree with.
"When you have handicapped a standout selection and bet it to win, with backup bets in the place and show pools, your place and show bets are scared money". This I believe.
I agree with Anotherdave, wagering the same amount of money on each race you play makes life much easier and the only goal you have to reach for is doubling the amount of money you walked into the track with.
Karl
You guys ,make it sound EASY. I don't know an easy way.
Do you.
Karlskorner,
If you cash a place and show ticket along with a win bet, it's called "profit", not scared money.
That I know.
Karlskonner.
Who is Charles Carroll ????
anotherdave
03-07-2002, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by rocajack
You guys ,make it sound EASY. I don't know an easy way.
Do you.
It aint easy, but any other way for ME is hard. Again there are no absolutes. I am just talking about what works for me. If we all picked horses the same way we'd all be losers.
AD
karlskorner
03-07-2002, 07:10 PM
SMF
I beg to differ........PROFIT is when you take the money you would have wagered on win, place and show and make a win bet. If it paid 6/3/2 you would wind up with $11.00, same money on win would pay $18.00. Thats a profit. If your not that certain that the horse can win, than a wager should never have been placed.
Rocajack
Charles Carroll wrote a book (Handicapping Speed) back in the early 90's. IMHO one of the best. He has a website @
www.icapper.com/
Search around on the site for Desertsea Publishing. I think the book sells for $10-15. He also has a program he sells. He sent me a copy. It's so-so. In the back of the book he has his original program, than he got involved with variants and other nonsence and produced his present program. Read some of his articles along with Joe T. They make sense.
Karl
______________________________________________
Never take invesment advice from someone who's working
Karlskorner,
Go ahead and 'beg to differ' all day long. New math, old math, good math, bad...= Profit is profit. End of story.
Many times I've used a win and place wager, had the horse run 2nd and take a nice PROFIT.
It's the name of the game, I'm told.
Of course if you bet only $20 a race you'll not clear a lot of cash betting to place. It w/ take someone to be a bit more bold to make a decent PROFIT doing so.
Glad to see you're into 'capping books nowdays, btw.
karlskorner
03-07-2002, 08:03 PM
SMF
Are you having a bad hair day ? All I am trying to say is that using the "old" math, if you are convinced that the horse will win and wagered $2.00 on w/p/s and the horse paid $6/3/2 you wound up with $11.00, in my math you made approx. 80% profit, the same $6.00 placed to win pays you $18.00 or a 200% profit. Thats the difference. Multiply that $6.00 by what ever you are comfortable in wagering. No I am not hustling Carroll's book, I just think it is one of the soundest handicapping books out there (others on this Board seem to agree)
Karl\_____________________________________________
Never take investment advice from someone who's working
Karlscorner,
Yeah I must be having a bad hair day. A month ago I coulda sworn you posted to me that handicapping books were tantamount to "who do ya like". Now we're quoting Charles Carroll.
Nothing wrong with that. I've read over 30 capping books myself. Some, very good.
I don't bet to show, but I do back up a win bet w/ place wagers at times when the situation calls for it. I do show a profit doing so. Last April I was with GR1 @ LS I and cleared $240 with a win/ place wager. My horse ran 2nd, yet I turned a profit (good wager, good math). Obviously if I'd wagered to win only, I'd have lost a chunk of change.
GameTheory
03-07-2002, 08:37 PM
Making these kinds of comparsions for a single race is meaningless.
SMF, I wouldn't try to convince you to bet only to win, but chances are your profits would be greater if that's where you put all of your money. Obviously you would lose races where your horse came in second, but the times he came in first might MORE THAN MAKE UP for it. "Scared" money to place is not neccessarily a bad thing if helps ease your nerves AND your place bets at least break even.
Really, though, you ought to KNOW (maybe you do) exactly how much you would have made either way. Have you ever sat down and figured out what would have happened if you took all that place money and bet it to win instead? Do you make a profit on your place wagers alone, not considering win bets? These are the important questions...
anotherdave
03-07-2002, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by GameTheory
Really, though, you ought to KNOW (maybe you do) exactly how much you would have made either way. Have you ever sat down and figured out what would have happened if you took all that place money and bet it to win instead? Do you make a profit on your place wagers alone, not considering win bets? These are the important questions...
True, but whether you make more on win than place is not the only question. If the win makes 20% and the place 12%, I'd probably bet win and place. The security against long losing streaks would allow me to bet a bigger percentage of my bankroll enabling me to make more actual money which is what really counts. Now if the win ROI was 30% and the place 5% I wouldn't bother with place. If the win ROI was 12% and the place ROI was 10% (I've had this happen), I'd only bet to place again because of the higher amount I'd be able to bet.
The point is that there is no absolutes. Betting win only isn't correct (that's me), betting win/place isn't correct, win/exactas isn't correct, etc. There's probably someone out the making profit betting to show. Great. I couldn't do it, but more power to him. I firmly believe that each horseplayer must bet according to what works for them. And I will never tell someone he is betting wrong because win is better than place - it might be for my selections, but it might not be for him. I'm just hoping that if he's betting wrong he's doing it in the same pool that I'm betting.
So my absolute statement is there are no absolutes.
AD
What I mean by it is not easy. It is not easy to get the the right odds today like it was years ago.Sure I know when a horse is ten lengths better than the others , but how do I make a profit with a $3.20 pay off. Play an exacta you say, I have never seen a method or a system nor do I know of any software that will pick a horse for second......Do any of you.
anotherdave
03-07-2002, 09:36 PM
Sorry, rocajack, I misunderstood by what you meant by "it's not easy." Finding a nice overlay is pretty hard, I guess. But I probably find more today than 5 years ago.
But then I think I am a far better handicapper than I was a few years ago. (probably were more of them-just wasn't smart enough to find them) Not to mean that the nice overlays happen all the time, but I seem to find a lot of races with false favourites. Sometimes horses who are 4-5 that I wouldn't give a 5% chance of winning. That is what I consider my bread and butter. Got to be some nice plays then. Don't always get the winner in those, but when I do it sure feels good.
Must have been easy 30 years ago before speed figures. Sounds like someone with a good set of speed figures and track variants could make some nice money in the 60s and early 70s. And I imagine when the sheets started there was some money made by those folks too. Years ago the top speed or pace horse might be 4-1 now he's 8-5. But maybe the top class horse years ago was 5-2 and now he's 5-1? I'm not sure.
But I guess when people start concentrating too much on one factor (speed, pace) there must be some factor that is being underplayed (class?). I really like how I am playing these last couple years and I am getting better, but then maybe my technique today won't work in 2 years. I think I have to be ready to adapt. I was doing okay in the late 80s and early 90s as primarily a speed player, doing my own variants and speed figures. But when the Beyer numbers went into the racing form, I lost any slight advantage I used to have. I was blindsided. My nice overlays seemed to vanish. Took me a few years (and some losses) to reinvent my handicapping. Hopefully this way will work for a while.
AD
Game Theory,
Yes, of course I've done a scrub on my wagering log.
Again, the goal of a race that was bet is to turn a profit. I don't bet many races. 52% of my claim bets get into the place hole.
Every race presents a different situation. I won't bet w/p on a 7-5 horse, obviously. If my horse is short in the place pool, I'll look into it.
If you bet all win, you might win more money in the long run
than if you bet win/place/show. Maybe not. The only thing certain about the long run is that we die in it. The short run is much more interesting, so I like to win more races and maybe less money overall. Once you have made your long run profits, you are done betting. Whatever your goal is, it is your goal, no one else's.
My goal for many years was to break even. I was very happy when I did. I have a friend whoese goal is to not to lose all his money before the last race. If he loses it all then, he has met his goal for the day. He goes home to a miserable family life, screaming kids, nagging wife, leaky roof.....get the picture?
His goal is to escape reality and a couple a twentys is pretty cheap for his afternoon at the track. We all have our own goals and they can change over the years. I am no longer happy to just break even. Now I want to make a profit. How much? A million a year. So if I don't make a million a year, I have failed. My friend taps out on the finale, so he is the winner-he met his goal.
I only make $500,000, so I am the loser. It's all in how you want
to play the game.
Tom
Game Theory,
One other thing I should add. You stated that looking back on one race was meaningless.
I thought I'd give an example where I had a witness (on this board) just so Karl knew I wasn't redboarding some ghost wager. Fact is I've done much better than a $240 net on w/p wagers that came in 2nd on a number of occasions.
Game Theory and Karl.
Smf is telling the truth. I am not the witness but I know who is and a member of this board. Smf is a little vane and won't tell you the story. I will, this witness member and Smf were at the track together [ Lone Star I think.] As the witness told me. Smf had a great night , Smf was very selective in the races that he had an interest in. cashed every win/ place bet he made. Mostly place and won a large amount of money. Smf must be a generious guy for He paid for dinner and all the beers for our witness member and his Girlfriend....
Lefty
03-08-2002, 12:35 PM
I bet win only myself, but I understand the psychology of place bets. Some need to cash those extra tickets. If you make a profit over a decent skein of races betting place, albeit a smaller one than win betting, some people's psychology demands they make the place bet.
andicap
03-08-2002, 12:45 PM
If you bet a lot of longshots, say, 6-1 and over, place bets prevent you from long losing streaks associated with betting high odds horses. Yes, the ROI is likely to be smaller, but you don't have the psychological debiliatating effects of losing 10 or more in a row.(I know!) And seeing your bankroll shrink.
And most research I have seen show high odds horses do place a good number of times.
Rocajack,
He's seen me lose a day or two out there also, lol.
I need to email you w/ some questions this weekend about Aqu jocks. Lezcano was a scratch in the 5th so I didn't get to see him ride. In the 5th it looked as if Dunk was still at Maryland or Charles Town. He was the best rider on the track.
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