View Full Version : All time low for New York racing
lamboguy
02-28-2018, 04:01 PM
40 years ago there were at least 9 races every day 6 days a week. as of this week, the big A is running 3 days a week with short fields with a great breeding program that didn't exist 40 years ago. its sad.
Fri-Sat-Sun now?
About time.... but why wait until March?
Racing there has sucked all winter.
Sat-Sun might be a good idea to try. :rolleyes:
lamboguy
02-28-2018, 05:41 PM
Fri-Sat-Sun now?
About time.... but why wait until March?
Racing there has sucked all winter.
Sat-Sun might be a good idea to try. :rolleyes:i remember when the racing in the winter was better than Gulfstream. now Maryland is better in the winter.
CincyHorseplayer
02-28-2018, 06:46 PM
I don't follow any tracks north of Oaklawn in the winter. Shut it down already!
PaceAdvantage
02-28-2018, 07:58 PM
NYRA has been going to a 3 day week in March for a few years now...this is nothing new.
classhandicapper
02-28-2018, 07:58 PM
At least my workload of watching replays and making bias notes is going down.
PaceAdvantage
02-28-2018, 07:59 PM
i remember when the racing in the winter was better than Gulfstream. now Maryland is better in the winter.And Laurel runs 3 days a week ALL winter long...
jay68802
02-28-2018, 08:21 PM
At least Linda can find a soft spot now...
delsully
02-28-2018, 08:53 PM
40 years ago there were at least 9 races every day 6 days a week. as of this week, the big A is running 3 days a week with short fields with a great breeding program that didn't exist 40 years ago. its sad.
I wouldn’t bet Aqueduct with your $.
PaceAdvantage
02-28-2018, 09:33 PM
I'd bet any race anywhere as long as I thought it was worthwhile...
Why would anyone cross a track off the list? A race is a race dude...
NYRA has been going to a 3 day week in March for a few years now...this is nothing new.
Really?
Sounds odd, but I have not followed NYRA for years.
More racing in Jan-Feb than in March when the spring is around the corner seems backwards.
PaceAdvantage
02-28-2018, 10:13 PM
All I can tell you is that it is so. Somebody else can probably explain the reasoning...
Rico8812
02-28-2018, 10:48 PM
Sad that Aqu has fallen so much esp being flush with all the casino money. And by casino money, I mean the most profitable casino in North America.
Sad that Aqu has fallen so much esp being flush with all the casino money. And by casino money, I mean the most profitable casino in North America.
We've seen over and over and over again that subsidies don't help the product as a gambling game. I'd even say it hurts. The problem for bettors is that we don't matter much as long as the subsidies flow in.
CincyHorseplayer
02-28-2018, 11:59 PM
We've seen over and over and over again that subsidies don't help the product as a gambling game. I'd even say it hurts. The problem for bettors is that we don't matter much as long as the subsidies flow in.
Racing at the casino here in Cincinnati is worse than it was before the casino. It's pathetic. Plus they slashed purses midway through the very first meet! Kiddin me?!
thaskalos
02-28-2018, 11:59 PM
Raise the purses again, I say. It can't possibly hurt the NY product any more than it already has.
Robert Fischer
03-01-2018, 12:34 AM
It's winter.
TBH I can't tell if this winter is better or worse than recent years. I only play them this time of year when they offer a great betting race. Otherwise, it's Gulfstream, Santa Anita, Oaklawn, and anyone offering a big stakes day card.
Love NYRA in-season.
castaway01
03-01-2018, 10:39 AM
All I can tell you is that it is so. Somebody else can probably explain the reasoning...
I would think if you stayed to run in the winter, you already got a few starts in and some of those horses either got hurt or the trainer is now freshening them up. If you didn't run all winter or are running somewhere warm, you're probably going to wait until real warm weather or turf racing starts to come north rather than come back on March 1st.
classhandicapper
03-01-2018, 10:55 AM
Over the years, NYRA has slowly been moving towards more turf racing. It's not unusual for a summer card to have more turf races than dirt races. When the turf season is over, some of those horses are turned out to farms for a freshening and others are shipped to warmer climates. That means instead of having 4-5 dirt races to fill, NYRA has to fill 8 or more dirt races with potentially fewer horses available to do it.
Turf racing is growing in popularity. Most likely that's because the horses stay sounder, the fields are larger, and the races appear to be more competitive. Apparently there may be some downsides in the colder months.
onefast99
03-01-2018, 11:13 AM
All I can tell you is that it is so. Somebody else can probably explain the reasoning...
On Saturday I sat with an owner who had taken all 15 of his horses out of NY in late December due to the rare arctic climate we went through. He hasn't won a race yet at GP or Tampa and while we watched on the TV the 5 horse fields at the Big A on a rainy Saturday he was glad he came to Florida for the winter. Seems that year round racing at GP is also a reason horses are staying in Florida as well as another increase in purses beginning today.
GMB@BP
03-01-2018, 12:07 PM
Over the years, NYRA has slowly been moving towards more turf racing. It's not unusual for a summer card to have more turf races than dirt races. When the turf season is over, some of those horses are turned out to farms for a freshening and others are shipped to warmer climates. That means instead of having 4-5 dirt races to fill, NYRA has to fill 8 or more dirt races with potentially fewer horses available to do it.
Turf racing is growing in popularity. Most likely that's because the horses stay sounder, the fields are larger, and the races appear to be more competitive. Apparently there may be some downsides in the colder months.
Its usually a 6 turf to 4 dirt on many of the cards.
If it wasnt for the rain there would be more turf racing than dirt in NY.
Even socal is moving close to 50/50 split now.
You get more than 50-50 you'll need lights to finish a card.
The grass grows faster than a lot of NY turf races run splits.:rolleyes:
lamboguy
03-01-2018, 03:23 PM
i have the feeling that the added $1500 for insurance has a lot to do with less people in New York, no fault of NYRA as far as i know.
onefast99
03-01-2018, 05:29 PM
i have the feeling that the added $1500 for insurance has a lot to do with less people in New York, no fault of NYRA as far as i know.
I would imagine right after the Florida Derby the shippers will be busy as they head north from GP. Tough winter in NY with frigid temps in December and lots of rain in January and February. Hey the Ortiz brothers must know something they flew south as well....................
delsully
03-01-2018, 05:29 PM
I'd bet any race anywhere as long as I thought it was worthwhile...
Why would anyone cross a track off the list? A race is a race dude...
Relax, Francis. It’s called hyperbole.
That said, the product typically sucks there in the dead of winter. Short fields and slop.
pandy
03-01-2018, 10:46 PM
This column by Bill Finley explains it:
http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/aqueducts-struggles-to-fill-races-continue/
PaceAdvantage
03-01-2018, 10:52 PM
Relax, Francis. It’s called hyperbole.
That said, the product typically sucks there in the dead of winter. Short fields and slop.I look at all the races all over the country every day. You gotta be chill and relaxed to be able to do that...
JustRalph
03-01-2018, 10:56 PM
You get more than 50-50 you'll need lights to finish a card.
The grass grows faster than a lot of NY turf races run splits.:rolleyes:
:pound::pound:
Brilliant!
Panza would also like to see NYRA based horsemen more loyal to the NYRA product.
So would GM, Sears, Burger King.....welcome to the real world.
Of course your horses are going down to Parx - hint: it's not for the cheesesteaks. :bang:
lamboguy
03-01-2018, 11:39 PM
Colonial is going to open this year with ridiculously high purses for its turf meet. if i was the guy in charge of distributing purses in New York, i would cut back the money distributed in the stakes problem and take that money and pay the insurance to get more guys on the grounds before the spring and summer meets look like this winters-edition.
appistappis
03-02-2018, 03:33 AM
I don't follow any tracks north of Oaklawn in the winter. Shut it down already!
youre missing a gem in mahoning valley.
CincyHorseplayer
03-02-2018, 09:56 AM
youre missing a gem in mahoning valley.
Funny because I am in Ohio and know the circuit I do make that exception!
GMB@BP
03-02-2018, 10:36 AM
"We need dirt horses"
ya, no kidding, other than Mdn races for two year olds it felt like there was a handful of full dirt fields at Belmont and Saratoga
jay68802
03-02-2018, 12:03 PM
Colonial is going to open this year with ridiculously high purses for its turf meet. if i was the guy in charge of distributing purses in New York, i would cut back the money distributed in the stakes problem and take that money and pay the insurance to get more guys on the grounds before the spring and summer meets look like this winters-edition.
Do you mean use the money to try and make a more competitive betting option for gamblers? Tell the owners and trainers that they can have these larger purses if the field size is 8, but the purse will be reduced if the field size is below that. Use the money to improve your product and not for a windfall for a few people.:eek: Nonsense, with higher purses, the trainers can afford to pay the higher insurance cost and will not look at it as more profit for themselves. Higher purses are the savior of this sport. Full fields do nothing to increase handle.:rolleyes: Just proves that subsidizing racing with no conditions will never work.
“Our $10,000 claimer runs for $20,000 and the $10,000 claimer at Parx runs for $28,000,” Panza said. “Our day rate is $100-a-day and the day rate down there is $65. We’re at a disadvantage on the cheaper end of our claiming races. That’s another thing we have to get the state to allow us to change.”
Why not just universally raise the claiming prices? Who does it help to have such a skewed claiming price to purse ratio?
classhandicapper
03-02-2018, 02:49 PM
Why not just universally raise the claiming prices? Who does it help to have such a skewed claiming price to purse ratio?
I'm not sure what the upside is to having a lot of activity at the claim box, but whatever incentive there is to claim is based partially on what you can earn relative to what you are paying for the horse (and the day rate and other costs). So let's say you thought you could claim some horse for 10K and have a decent shot of covering your annual training costs and getting back your investment, if the cost was suddenly 15k instead, you'd be less likely to make the claim. Of course, people could always negotiate privately.
castaway01
03-02-2018, 02:59 PM
Do you mean use the money to try and make a more competitive betting option for gamblers? Tell the owners and trainers that they can have these larger purses if the field size is 8, but the purse will be reduced if the field size is below that. Use the money to improve your product and not for a windfall for a few people.:eek: Nonsense, with higher purses, the trainers can afford to pay the higher insurance cost and will not look at it as more profit for themselves. Higher purses are the savior of this sport. Full fields do nothing to increase handle.:rolleyes: Just proves that subsidizing racing with no conditions will never work.
I've read these arguments before, but if you weren't planning to run your horse, what does telling someone the purses will be lower for those who DO run do?
If horsemen don't run there horses, there will just continue to be less and less races. It will just get harder to pick out a good spot.
classhandicapper
03-02-2018, 03:51 PM
If horsemen don't run there horses, there will just continue to be less and less races. It will just get harder to pick out a good spot.
It's not like I have a lot of experience or am dealing with a lot of horses, but we've entered horses plenty of times and the race didn't fill.
I'm one of the partners in my group that wants to freshen our horses up from time to time, but I'd say our horses run less frequently than even I'd like because the races don't always fill. Usually, they'll try the race again soon after and it will fill, but those small delays probably translate into a lost race here or there. But mostly the trainer gets the final word. If he says the horse can run we run. If he says no it's no.
jay68802
03-02-2018, 03:57 PM
I've read these arguments before, but if you weren't planning to run your horse, what does telling someone the purses will be lower for those who DO run do?
Makes them compete for the purses instead of waiting for shorter fields. And creates a standard of competition. If they want the free money, make them earn it, instead of just giving it to them. Do you think that the people running there now are there because of the weather? Or are they there because of the lack of competition and the high purses? If Aqueduct was shut down now, the people that stayed would either be at Laurel, or Tampa because the competition at Gulfstream and Oaklawn is to much for them.
I've read these arguments before, but if you weren't planning to run your horse, what does telling someone the purses will be lower for those who DO run do?
If the field are not filling, then the money is being wasted.
Right now, NYRA is getting next to nothing for it's purse money.
Perhaps is they want to be some "turfy" they should change their ridiculous model and run Toga and Belmont and get out of dirt racing altogether. Right their product suck and it sucks for a lot of money.
Would anyone miss all the cheap shit they card races for day in day out?
dilanesp
03-02-2018, 06:06 PM
Thoroughbred racing invented a surface that isn't grass and is easy on horses' legs, and which significantly increased field sizes at Hollywood Park, which had gigantic horse shortage problems.
What happened? Some influential handicappers and horsemen hated it, and all but killed it.
Want better racing? Bring back synthetic tracks.
Cholly
03-02-2018, 06:34 PM
“Our $10,000 claimer runs for $20,000 and the $10,000 claimer at Parx runs for $28,000,” Panza said. “Our day rate is $100-a-day and the day rate down there is $65. We’re at a disadvantage on the cheaper end of our claiming races. That’s another thing we have to get the state to allow us to change.”
Why not just universally raise the claiming prices? Who does it help to have such a skewed claiming price to purse ratio?
Here we go again. There was a reason NYRA instituted the maximum ratio for purse-to-claiming price: it was determined to be a factor in reducing fatality rates. NYRA's fatality rate has fallen since this was implemented. Can Parx say they have a safety record equal to NYRA? Does Panza not care about this anymore? Does equine safety take a back seat to field size?
“Our $10,000 claimer runs for $20,000 and the $10,000 claimer at Parx runs for $28,000,” Panza said. “Our day rate is $100-a-day and the day rate down there is $65. We’re at a disadvantage on the cheaper end of our claiming races. That’s another thing we have to get the state to allow us to change.”
Here we go again. There was a reason NYRA instituted the maximum ratio for purse-to-claiming price: it was determined to be a factor in reducing fatality rates. NYRA's fatality rate has fallen since this was implemented. Can Parx say they have a safety record equal to NYRA? Does Panza not care about this anymore? Does equine safety take a back seat to field size?
You missed my point by a mile.
Want better racing? Bring back synthetic tracks.
High class racing, like Turfway, GG, PID, AP? :rolleyes:
onefast99
03-03-2018, 09:40 AM
Thoroughbred racing invented a surface that isn't grass and is easy on horses' legs, and which significantly increased field sizes at Hollywood Park, which had gigantic horse shortage problems.
What happened? Some influential handicappers and horsemen hated it, and all but killed it.
Want better racing? Bring back synthetic tracks.Is there a link to an article showing that the synthetic surface had less breakdowns and injuries? If that is the case then you are right tracks should go to the synthetic.
dilanesp
03-03-2018, 10:07 AM
Is there a link to an article showing that the synthetic surface had less breakdowns and injuries? If that is the case then you are right tracks should go to the synthetic.
At Del Mar fatal breakdowns went way down when they went to Poly and way back up when they switched back:
http://www.animals24-7.org/2016/08/24/2016-del-mar-thoroughbred-deaths-may-set-new-track-record/
Now, Del Mar thankfully had a better year in 2017 and we hope it continues. But the evidence of the safety of the synthetics was obvious.
The Jockey Club did a quasi official study that showed they are safer too:
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/04/04/sports/in-a-tracks-decision-horses-are-the-losers.html?referer=https://www.google.com/
onefast99
03-03-2018, 11:01 AM
At Del Mar fatal breakdowns went way down when they went to Poly and way back up when they switched back:
http://www.animals24-7.org/2016/08/24/2016-del-mar-thoroughbred-deaths-may-set-new-track-record/
Now, Del Mar thankfully had a better year in 2017 and we hope it continues. But the evidence of the safety of the synthetics was obvious.
The Jockey Club did a quasi official study that showed they are safer too:
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/04/04/sports/in-a-tracks-decision-horses-are-the-losers.html?referer=https://www.google.com/
I know that the NJ horseman looked at this type of surface(Tapeta) back in 2008 but no one wanted the change.
Cholly
03-03-2018, 03:16 PM
You missed my point by a mile.
I think I got your point, but maybe my poor choice of words obscured the fact I thought I was agreeing with you.
When you can claim a horse for $10,000 and double your money by winning one race (as at Parx), it incentivizes decisions detrimental to the horse’s health & safety. NYRA recognized this, made changes to correct, and now is suffering in field size as horsemen move down the road to a track less concerned about the safety of the horses and jockeys.
No good deed goes unpunished.
I think I got your point, but maybe my poor choice of words obscured the fact I thought I was agreeing with you.
When you can claim a horse for $10,000 and double your money by winning one race (as at Parx), it incentivizes decisions detrimental to the horse’s health & safety. NYRA recognized this, made changes to correct, and now is suffering in field size as horsemen move down the road to a track less concerned about the safety of the horses and jockeys.
No good deed goes unpunished.
Thanks, appreciate the reply. We are on the same page.
At Del Mar fatal breakdowns went way down when they went to Poly and way back up when they switched back:
http://www.animals24-7.org/2016/08/24/2016-del-mar-thoroughbred-deaths-may-set-new-track-record/
Now, Del Mar thankfully had a better year in 2017 and we hope it continues. But the evidence of the safety of the synthetics was obvious.
The Jockey Club did a quasi official study that showed they are safer too:
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/04/04/sports/in-a-tracks-decision-horses-are-the-losers.html?referer=https://www.google.com/
All the synthetic tracks were new, all the dirt tracks were very old. If they tore out the dirt tracks and rebuilt from scratch would we see the same results?
Yes - apples and oranges comparing old to new.
The foundations of the tracks were totally different.
I think poly is fine for cheap racing but not for top quality stakes races where the surface trumps class and speed.
macguy
03-04-2018, 11:19 AM
High class racing, like Turfway, GG, PID, AP? :rolleyes:
Woodbine runs some pretty big races and does pretty good with its surface.
mountainman
03-04-2018, 12:14 PM
High class racing, like Turfway, GG, PID, AP? :rolleyes:
Sure..synthetics will be back...and Jimmy Hoffa, too.
And ohhhhh how I miss watching good horses cruise in front 49 for a half and finish 6th, beaten 2 lengths in a mad dash to the wire.
If I wanted to learn an entirely different game, I'd study jai alai.
I see Aqueduct has been pushed off to TVG2 this weekend.
SaratogaSteve
03-04-2018, 06:44 PM
I see Aqueduct has been pushed off to TVG2 this weekend.
That's because people would rather watch and bets through NYRA's channel, not TVG's lame product.
I see Aqueduct has been pushed off to TVG2 this weekend.
I think this has only happened for the last race or 2 on the card when SA, GP & AQU all seem to converge on a 5pm post time for their given races, nice to see the coast to coast cooperation as always
dilanesp
03-05-2018, 12:05 PM
All the synthetic tracks were new, all the dirt tracks were very old. If they tore out the dirt tracks and rebuilt from scratch would we see the same results?
I would like to see them try.
I am not anti-dirt. If Del Mar's dirt stays safe, that would be great for the sport.
But I am anti-dirt that hurts horses. And- I am sorry, I know this is a handicapping board- the horses' lives are more important than whether people like handicapping the surface. In most places where synthetics have been torn out, deaths are back up. This thing will kill the sport long term as animal rights picks up steam.
So if you don't like synthetics, figure out how to make an equally safe dirt track.
classhandicapper
03-05-2018, 03:07 PM
I would like to see them try.
I am not anti-dirt. If Del Mar's dirt stays safe, that would be great for the sport.
But I am anti-dirt that hurts horses. And- I am sorry, I know this is a handicapping board- the horses' lives are more important than whether people like handicapping the surface. In most places where synthetics have been torn out, deaths are back up. This thing will kill the sport long term as animal rights picks up steam.
So if you don't like synthetics, figure out how to make an equally safe dirt track.
Most of the rest of the world prefers turf racing and turf racing is growing in the US. My bet is that eventually turf racing is going to surpass dirt racing in importance in the US too. I may be gone by then, but that's the long term bet I'd make.
I used to love turf racing, but the road it has gone down, sprints, cheap races, mule-like paces - I hate them. Especially this new direction of 2 mile races and other marathons. They are not really races anymore - just jogging and then a 1 furlong sprint. And timers ar supposed to function that long? :lol:
PaceAdvantage
03-05-2018, 11:27 PM
I would like to see them try.
I am not anti-dirt. If Del Mar's dirt stays safe, that would be great for the sport.
But I am anti-dirt that hurts horses. And- I am sorry, I know this is a handicapping board- the horses' lives are more important than whether people like handicapping the surface. In most places where synthetics have been torn out, deaths are back up. This thing will kill the sport long term as animal rights picks up steam.
So if you don't like synthetics, figure out how to make an equally safe dirt track.The horses wouldn't exist in the first place if it weren't for racing.
So let's kill the sport even more by forcing synthetics down the throat of a betting public which has expressed disdain for it...
What is the difference between surfaces again? A little over one death per 1,000 starts.
I can think of WAY BETTER ways to save MORE THAN ONE HORSE per 1,000 starts then installing new racing surfaces.
Better pre-race vet inspections. Tighter restrictions on meds. Tighter restrictions on trainers. A central racing authority that can impose a uniform set of rules.
Surface is the least of our worries when it comes to horse deaths and injuries...hell, Turf has a higher breakdown rate than synthetics. Let's get rid of turf racing as well.
CincyHorseplayer
03-06-2018, 07:57 AM
The horses wouldn't exist in the first place if it weren't for racing.
So let's kill the sport even more by forcing synthetics down the throat of a betting public which has expressed disdain for it...
What is the difference between surfaces again? A little over one death per 1,000 starts.
I can think of WAY BETTER ways to save MORE THAN ONE HORSE per 1,000 starts then installing new racing surfaces.
Better pre-race vet inspections. Tighter restrictions on meds. Tighter restrictions on trainers. A central racing authority that can impose a uniform set of rules.
Surface is the least of our worries when it comes to horse deaths and injuries...hell, Turf has a higher breakdown rate than synthetics. Let's get rid of turf racing as well.
Well said.:ThmbUp:
PaceAdvantage
03-06-2018, 08:09 AM
Not to mention all the horse deaths resulting from sending them to slaughter. HOW MANY HORSE DEATHS per 1,000 STARTS COULD WE SAVE by preventing THAT?
How much does it cost to install a new racing surface? How many horses could be saved from slaughter with that money? Wonder how that number would compare with the theoretical number of horses that would be saved by the track surface (although a number of those "saved" might end up at the slaughterhouse anyway one day, so it's kind of a moot point).
onefast99
03-06-2018, 10:32 AM
Not to mention all the horse deaths resulting from sending them to slaughter. HOW MANY HORSE DEATHS per 1,000 STARTS COULD WE SAVE by preventing THAT?
How much does it cost to install a new racing surface? How many horses could be saved from slaughter with that money? Wonder how that number would compare with the theoretical number of horses that would be saved by the track surface (although a number of those "saved" might end up at the slaughterhouse anyway one day, so it's kind of a moot point).
Most of the tracks we race at now take out $10-$25 from our purse monies for horse after care programs. I am sure there are many that will say not all that money goes to the betterment of retired race horses but I hope each and every track that takes this money out does indeed use it for that cause. From time to time I will get a call asking me for a few hundred dollars to save a horse from the kill pen, most of these calls are scams. I was able to locate one of our horses, Maddys Lion and paid $300 to have him sent to a farm in Pa. I haven't checked in on him for over 5 years but I hope he is still having a great after racing life on the farm.
GMB@BP
03-06-2018, 10:51 AM
The horses wouldn't exist in the first place if it weren't for racing.
So let's kill the sport even more by forcing synthetics down the throat of a betting public which has expressed disdain for it...
What is the difference between surfaces again? A little over one death per 1,000 starts.
I can think of WAY BETTER ways to save MORE THAN ONE HORSE per 1,000 starts then installing new racing surfaces.
Better pre-race vet inspections. Tighter restrictions on meds. Tighter restrictions on trainers. A central racing authority that can impose a uniform set of rules.
Surface is the least of our worries when it comes to horse deaths and injuries...hell, Turf has a higher breakdown rate than synthetics. Let's get rid of turf racing as well.
yup, well said
dilanesp
03-06-2018, 11:41 AM
The horses wouldn't exist in the first place if it weren't for racing.
So let's kill the sport even more by forcing synthetics down the throat of a betting public which has expressed disdain for it...
What is the difference between surfaces again? A little over one death per 1,000 starts.
I can think of WAY BETTER ways to save MORE THAN ONE HORSE per 1,000 starts then installing new racing surfaces.
Better pre-race vet inspections. Tighter restrictions on meds. Tighter restrictions on trainers. A central racing authority that can impose a uniform set of rules.
Surface is the least of our worries when it comes to horse deaths and injuries...hell, Turf has a higher breakdown rate than synthetics. Let's get rid of turf racing as well.
PA, to anyone who isn't handicapper, this reads as "I demand they kill a couple more horses because I can't handicap synthetics".
I am sorry, but that just doesn't sell in the real world.
PaceAdvantage
03-06-2018, 11:48 AM
PA, to anyone who isn't handicapper, this reads as "I demand they kill a couple more horses because I can't handicap synthetics".
I am sorry, but that just doesn't sell in the real world.BS. It means the racing industry isn't addressing the REAL PROBLEM...
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