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ultracapper
02-25-2018, 01:45 PM
I'm kinda embarrassed to ask this question because I really should have known the answer 15 years ago, but...

The 3rd fraction down the hill.....is that for 6 furlongs, or for 1/16th from home?

It's either 1/4 mile from 2nd call to 3rd call, or 1/16th from 3rd call to finish, but it can't be both like 6 1/2 furlong races usually are because the race is an "about".

Thanks to those that can clarify.

storyline
02-25-2018, 02:38 PM
I'm kinda embarrassed to ask this question because I really should have known the answer 15 years ago, but...

The 3rd fraction down the hill.....is that for 6 furlongs, or for 1/16th from home?

It's either 1/4 mile from 2nd call to 3rd call, or 1/16th from 3rd call to finish, but it can't be both like 6 1/2 furlong races usually are because the race is an "about".

Thanks to those that can clarify.

I think this may help answer your question UCapper

6.5 furlong distance

The first 1320 ft is the 1st fraction (2f mark)

The next 1320 ft is the 2nd fraction (4f mark)

The remaining 1650 ft are calculated as the 3rd fraction..

Tom
02-25-2018, 04:33 PM
It will be the time from 2nd call to finish.
Probably incorrect, but that is it.

From 2/24 - this is the last 6.5T race - 3rd fraction is 28.38

ultracapper
02-25-2018, 05:00 PM
Thanks gentlemen, but there are 4 points of call and 4 splits for the hillside course (in the DRF anyhow). The points of calls don't really concern me much, but the clocking of that 3rd split is something I'd like to be clear on. That 3rd split is either a little short of a 1/4 mile from the 2nd split, or the 4th split (Final time) is a little short of 1/16th from the 3rd split. One of them has to be short of the traditional 6 1/2 furlong splits to account for the shorter distance of the hillside course.

Am I thinking straight here? I think I am.

cj
02-25-2018, 05:09 PM
The poles are supposed to be set up to time the fractions for the exact distance, so it should be for 6f. Whether they actually are or not is anyone's guess. Have you tried looking for the timing equipment at that point?

storyline
02-25-2018, 05:28 PM
Thanks gentlemen, but there are 4 points of call and 4 splits for the hillside course (in the DRF anyhow). The points of calls don't really concern me much, but the clocking of that 3rd split is something I'd like to be clear on. That 3rd split is either a little short of a 1/4 mile from the 2nd split, or the 4th split (Final time) is a little short of 1/16th from the 3rd split. One of them has to be short of the traditional 6 1/2 furlong splits to account for the shorter distance of the hillside course.

Am I thinking straight here? I think I am.



Incremental splits for the downhill might look like this..

(2f ) 22.0
(4f) 22.5
(6f) 24.0
(6.5f) 6.0


These are the incremental splits and 3rd fraction is something described above.

It's very possible I'm not understanding your question.

Tom
02-25-2018, 07:56 PM
I thought you meant the 3rd fraction - aka final fraction.

ultracapper
02-25-2018, 09:36 PM
3rd point of timing. 3rd split.

I'm under the impression that the downhill course is short of 6 1/2 furlongs, so I'm trying to determine between which points of timing the missing yardage is. I have tried to see where the timing mechanisms are in the stretch, but can't identify it.

Sorry to run you guys through the ringer. I do appreciate your efforts. If I was a bit more articulate we'd probably be done with this.

21.47 43.59 1:06.12 1:12.18

The highlighted one. Is that exactly 2 furlongs from the 43.59, or is it 1/16 from the 1:12.18. One of them has to be short to make up for the yardage that the race is shorter than 6 1/2 furlongs. Of course, I'm assuming that the 1st split is 1/4 mile and the 2nd split is 1/2 mile and that the missing yardage is somewhere in the yardage in the stretch. But, the missing yardage could be from the gate to the first split, I'm just not sure.

Thank you.

P.S. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense that the missing yardage is at the top of the hill. There's already a timer at the 1/16th pole, another at 5/16ths and another at 9/16ths, so it has to be from the gate to the first split. That's it. It has to be. Whatever the difference between 6 1/2 furlongs and the true distance of the downhill race has to be at the start. Then they just hit the timers at the poles.

Gotta be it. Thanks for being there while I talk to myself. I love this board. Gotta go get a paypal.

cj
02-26-2018, 09:53 AM
Just curious, what makes you think the "about" distance is short of 6.5f?

jay68802
02-26-2018, 11:31 AM
I think the splits are normal, the time difference is that the 3rd and last split are run on the flat part of the course.

ubercapper
02-26-2018, 11:35 AM
Fractional times chart:

http://www.equibase.com/newfan/fractional_times.cfm

SG4
02-26-2018, 04:28 PM
Just curious, what makes you think the "about" distance is short of 6.5f?

6.4022 furlongs as per this recent article - http://www.latimes.com/sports/more/la-sp-santa-anita-downhill-turf-20170702-story.html


This is an interesting thread, I always assumed the final 1/16th is where the difference lied, but considering the timing poles being where they are, it probably is the first quarter coming up a tad faster than it really is.

kingfin66
02-26-2018, 07:36 PM
Thanks for sharing the article. It was nice to read about the history of their signature race. 6.4022. I always figured that the times were so fast because they were running downhill. That is definitely some of it, but is some of it also because the splits are a little short?

cj
02-27-2018, 10:15 PM
6.4022 furlongs as per this recent article - http://www.latimes.com/sports/more/la-sp-santa-anita-downhill-turf-20170702-story.html


This is an interesting thread, I always assumed the final 1/16th is where the difference lied, but considering the timing poles being where they are, it probably is the first quarter coming up a tad faster than it really is.

In this case Santa Anita now uses Trakus as the official timer so the poles don't really mean anything, just a visual. The fractions should all be for the exact distance. Should be easy to figure out from the charts and how many feet they record for each segment.

cj
02-27-2018, 10:25 PM
In this case Santa Anita now uses Trakus as the official timer so the poles don't really mean anything, just a visual. The fractions should all be for the exact distance. Should be easy to figure out from the charts and how many feet they record for each segment.

So, I pulled up Race 7 from Sunday:

This is the minimum distance run at each segment. One note, Trakus had a built in error of adding an additional ~3.5 feet per furlong.

1/4 1329 feet (This is about 2 feet more than expected, so no distance shaved here)

1/2 1342 feet (This is about about 15 feet more than expected, but given that it is on the weird layout, probably makes sense, doubt it is possible to save ground going right and then left)

3/4 1332 feet (Only about five feet above minimum)

Last 1/16 331 feet (This is slightly less than the expected minimum of 332)

Based on this, I'd guess the distance is shaved off the very last segment.

For the total race, minimum distance traveled was 4350 feet from an expected minimum of 4313. I'm guessing that at 6.5 given the odd layout the 4313 is impossible to achieve as you'll either lose ground going right or going left, one or the other.

ultracapper
02-27-2018, 10:54 PM
The layout is only about 65 feet short of a true 6 1/2 furlongs. I was guessing it would be a bit more than that.

I have always tried to make a case, while handicapping, that one of the splits really isn't comparable to the splits of a true 6 1/2 furlong race, but I think the distance info CJ posted shows that it's quite negligible.

It's hard enough trying to compare that layout to any other in America as it is. If there would have been an appreciable distance difference between one of the splits, it would have made it that much more "Greek".

mikekk
03-03-2018, 01:02 AM
Woodbine's old Marshall Turf Course was a replica to Santa Anita's. Used to be pretty useful for horses that had raced on either course (back before information was so available). I cashed some decent tickets back in the 80's on Santa Anita shippers.

Unfortunately they tore the Marshall up in the 90's when the redesigned the track.

Dave Schwartz
03-03-2018, 01:46 AM
Good conversations here. Thanks, guys.

One thing to consider is the way they load the gate. If there are just a few horses (LOL - How long has it been since they had a lot of horses?) they have traditionally left the 1st 3 posts empty.

This allows the horses a pretty straight shot, without the worry of getting pinched on the right-hand turn.

https://www.practicalhandicapping.com/desktop/package/PublicImages/PA/SA%20GoogleMap.jpg

jay68802
03-03-2018, 01:01 PM
The pinching and checking usually happens on the left turn. I have always tried to stay away from from horses that are in the 1,2,3 post that have a lot of similar running styles drawn outside of them. When they get to the left hand turn, they tend to get squeezed up against the rail and what was a nice clear outside stalking trip, becomes a stuck against the rail with the speed backing up, bad trip.