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jay68802
02-23-2018, 11:42 AM
In multi race bets or horizontal bets, when do you use All?

I have been experimenting with this lately and it seems that the best use of a All play is either in the first or last position. The advantages are easy to see. You are turning a Pick 3 into a double, or a Pick 4 into a Pick 3. The disadvantage is that it costs $$$$.

When doing this I am also tracking my picks for the race that I used All in. Although it is a small sample, my picks have won 70% of the races. But the payouts on the races where my picks did not win have been worth the extra money won.

So, do you use the All play, if so when, where, and why?

GMB@BP
02-23-2018, 12:30 PM
This almost dovetails into a discussion about ones contender elimination percentages.

My feeling is if I am hitting all it better had be a complete chaos race that for whatever reason my normal handicapping process cannot eliminate my customary non contenders.

But if you are hitting all, and you are not beating a solid favorite in another leg, I see no advantage gained by the added combinations.

Robert Fischer
02-23-2018, 01:01 PM
'ALL' is both overused, and underused by horseplayers.

jay68802
02-23-2018, 01:17 PM
This almost dovetails into a discussion about ones contender elimination percentages.

My feeling is if I am hitting all it better had be a complete chaos race that for whatever reason my normal handicapping process cannot eliminate my customary non contenders.

But if you are hitting all, and you are not beating a solid favorite in another leg, I see no advantage gained by the added combinations.

Can agree with this, for a lot of reasons. But Pick 3 goes 8/5, 6/5, 60/1 and pays over $1000.00 tells me it might not all being about beating favorites.

AltonKelsey
02-23-2018, 01:44 PM
All.

Use it when:

1) you want/have to play the horizontal and you have zero clue in the race. no law that says you cant play the faves an extra time or two to protect against a small payout.

2) you hate the chalk(s), but can't figure out who the winner might be

Si2see
02-23-2018, 04:15 PM
Here are the three ways I will punch the all button. Hopefully these are ways you wouldn't have thought of previously, and the reason you made this thread


1. PICK 4 - For comfort, piece of mind, and to cash more often, I will often times use ALL in the last leg of a pick4 ticket. ESPECIALLY the late pick4 as the last race of the day tends to lean towards chaos.

2. ALMOST ALL - I love to use what I will call the Almost All button in one situation. If there are two heavy favorites in a race, I love one of them on top, and can't stand the other one to run second. These situations typically happen in shorter 6-8 horse fields. Normally I will key the horse I like one of two ways.

Option A: Use the probables to adjust each horse in second place to have the possible score at X amount of dollars.

Option B: Will just key the horse with everyone except second chalk on $10 exacta

3. DOUBLE - Probably my favorite and longest running all ticket.... I can remember hitting this way at some of the more wide open meets ( Gulfstream winter, Keeneland, and Saratoga )

If I have a strong opinion on a long shot in back to back races ( Example :11: in leg A, :8: in leg B. )

$1 dbl :11: / ALL
$1 dbl ALL / :8:
$1-$2 Dbl Fav, :11: / Fav, :8:

If you hit one of your Longshots you are golden, even if the favorite runs in the other leg because you will have multiple times. IF you are lucky enough to hit both longshots you are GETTING PAID

An example of this happened to me playing Hollywood park right before it closed ( I miss that track so much )



December 21, 2013
Race 5

I liked the 31-1 :1: horse drawing the inside he dueled all the way around the track to just hold off the favorite, the next race looked wide open as well. The horse I keyed for the All / X double was nowhere to be seen, but luckily I had the all button as the 43-1 :9: wins ( who I wouldn't have used on the ticket in 100 years ) triggering one of the largest $2 payoffs in Hollywood Park History


2.00 DB (PWHL) 1 / 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12
Bet $24 $3,728


The all button can be your friend if you know how to use it, and can catch a little bit of luck every once in a while. Hope this helps,
Jason

GMB@BP
02-23-2018, 04:28 PM
I should prefece my comments to be multi race only, in trifectas and superfectas i think the all is very viable and something i use all the time.

RunForTheRoses
02-23-2018, 04:41 PM
I don't think you should ever go All. True, you might get that 60 to 1 that one time and make a good score but in the long run it is a bad strategy. You are playing horses you don't like. I can see (and do) going deep in a race but if you can pare down at least the ones you'd be shocked at...
You can always pass the sequence if you find it inscrutable. ALL tickets get expensive.
This really only regards P3s etc. I sometimes will go All on a dime super for 3 or 4th.

thaskalos
02-23-2018, 05:23 PM
The horizontal bettor who uses the ALL-button is implying that every single horse in the race is a legitimate win-contender. I don't think that I've ever encountered such a race in my entire horse-playing life.

Si2see
02-23-2018, 05:35 PM
The horizontal bettor who uses the ALL-button is implying that every single horse in the race is a legitimate win-contender. I don't think that I've ever encountered such a race in my entire horse-playing life.


In theory you are correct, however jay68802 asked of ways to use the all button, and as I posted it is a good way to chase payouts, which I for one am ok with doing while maybe not being best for the long run, the day I start trying to grind out 5-2 winners will be the day I quit gambling.

Once again just my opinion, that is why this sport is so fun, everyone is allowed to have one.

thaskalos
02-23-2018, 05:48 PM
In theory you are correct, however jay68802 asked of ways to use the all button, and as I posted it is a good way to chase payouts, which I for one am ok with doing while maybe not being best for the long run, the day I start trying to grind out 5-2 winners will be the day I quit gambling.

Once again just my opinion, that is why this sport is so fun, everyone is allowed to have one.

I wasn't suggesting that you were in some way "wrong" in the post that you submitted. Nor am I trying to change anyone's mind when I state an opinion of my own here. I too refuse to grind out 5-2 winners...but I don't need the all-button in order to do that. IMO...the use of the all-button is a wasteful practice for the horizontal bettor...because at least a couple of horses in every race can always be eliminated from win-consideration...usually at first glance.

Of course...those who are having fun with the all-button are welcomed to keep using it. :ThmbUp:

Si2see
02-23-2018, 06:01 PM
I wasn't suggesting that you were in some way "wrong" in the post that you submitted. Nor am I trying to change anyone's mind when I state an opinion of my own here. I too refuse to grind out 5-2 winners...but I don't need the all-button in order to do that. IMO...the use of the all-button is a wasteful practice for the horizontal bettor...because at least a couple of horses in every race can always be eliminated from win-consideration...usually at first glance.

Of course...those who are having fun with the all-button are welcomed to keep using it. :ThmbUp:



I couldn't agree more. Solid post :ThmbUp:

This could be an interesting thread, I wish it would've included a a vote because I wouldn't be surprised if it is split down the middle. It has always seemed to me people love or hate the ALL BUTTON

Robert Fischer
02-23-2018, 06:22 PM
If the *ALL BUTTON is a tool, try to have an idea or plan of what you want to do with it.

Magnify? = You have value in another leg and hope to magnify it

Connect? = Trying to link multiple opinions, and you have a competitive/chaotic race in the middle of the sequence

Focus? = When the *ALL race happens to be the focus itself, and you are content to link public contenders to this race


*Hitting the 'MOST' button is usually preferable to the 'ALL' button.

ALL - Impossibles = Most

Sometimes you have a short competitive field, or the longest shots have something(e.g. wire-to-wire threat) in addition to a big price, or the longest shots are unknowns (e.g. FTS), and you use all.

Bennie
02-23-2018, 08:03 PM
just my thoughts. if I come to a race where I feel I need to hit the all button I will pass the race. I have never used all but there have been times where I lost out on a nice score by not putting out the cash but also not sure in the long run if I did this every time I thought I needed the all I would be ahead of the game anyway.

castaway01
02-23-2018, 11:42 PM
I couldn't agree more. Solid post :ThmbUp:

This could be an interesting thread, I wish it would've included a a vote because I wouldn't be surprised if it is split down the middle. It has always seemed to me people love or hate the ALL BUTTON

Logic dictates that the "All" is usually a waste of money and "betting on chaos" rather than having an opinion. However, early in my horse racing career I had hit the first two legs of a Pick 3 at decent prices. In the last leg I had 10 of 12 horses. One of the two I didn't have won at 30-1, and the Pick 3 paid $3500 for $1. Considering my income at the time, it definitely made me think.

I think how I saved $12 that day by not going "All" and it cost me several thousand. So, while logic dictates not using All, for peace of mind sometimes you have to do it. Or I do anyway. And let's face it---if you're betting 8 or 9 or 10 of 12 horses, you don't really have an opinion other than that the favorites are trash, so why not go for the All?

thaskalos
02-24-2018, 01:37 AM
Logic dictates that the "All" is usually a waste of money and "betting on chaos" rather than having an opinion. However, early in my horse racing career I had hit the first two legs of a Pick 3 at decent prices. In the last leg I had 10 of 12 horses. One of the two I didn't have won at 30-1, and the Pick 3 paid $3500 for $1. Considering my income at the time, it definitely made me think.

I think how I saved $12 that day by not going "All" and it cost me several thousand. So, while logic dictates not using All, for peace of mind sometimes you have to do it. Or I do anyway. And let's face it---if you're betting 8 or 9 or 10 of 12 horses, you don't really have an opinion other than that the favorites are trash, so why not go for the All?

Funny...the exact same thing happened to me. I had left only two horses out of the last leg of a Pick-4, and the ignored horses finished 1-2...triggering a monster payoff. I friend who looked at my racing form and saw the lines across only those two horses thought that I hit the huge exacta. But the experience reinforced my opinion to never use the all-button in the future. With my luck, I was sure that it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity...and I missed it. Truth be told, I've used the all-button in a few horizontal bets over the years...hoping to relive that fateful day. Without fail...the favorite won every time. :)

jay68802
02-24-2018, 02:29 PM
Today at Gulfstream Race #10:

Starts the pick 4, every horse has a good work and of the 4 horses that have started, the highest speed figure is at 12-1 and the 3rd and 4th are at 30-1.

Pick 4: All / :6::7: / :8: / :9:

thaskalos
02-24-2018, 05:36 PM
Today at Gulfstream Race #10:

Starts the pick 4, every horse has a good work and of the 4 horses that have started, the highest speed figure is at 12-1 and the 3rd and 4th are at 30-1.

Pick 4: All / :6::7: / :8: / :9:

If the Pick-3 in the 11-12-13 races is as straight-forward is you seem to think...wouldn't it make more sense to stick with that for a bigger bet-unit...and skip the chaotic 10th race?

jay68802
02-24-2018, 06:25 PM
If the Pick-3 in the 11-12-13 races is as straight-forward is you seem to think...wouldn't it make more sense to stick with that for a bigger bet-unit...and skip the chaotic 10th race?

It would but I am afraid the payout is going to be on the low side, and the pick 3 pool will be a lot smaller than the pick 4 pool. So playing a $12.00 pick 4, should pay better. Of course thats if it wins.

Afleet
02-25-2018, 01:15 PM
I'm usually can find the winner when I hit the all button

jay68802
02-25-2018, 01:53 PM
I'm usually can find the winner when I hit the all button

Undefeated!

fiveouttasix
02-25-2018, 07:34 PM
Mark Cramer said it best....Chaos race

Robert Fischer
02-25-2018, 08:04 PM
Mark Cramer said it best....Chaos race

whether you use 'ALL' vs. whether you use 'MOST', isn't as big an issue as determining that a race is a chaos race vs. a formful precision race.


some other chaotic/random points

ALL/MOST often trades some extra hit% (an increased chance of hitting this race today) vs. some value (ROI over a long term).

ALL/MOST comes into play in both horizontal multi-race wagers and vertical trifectas and superfectas... Sometimes such a decision comes more naturally for say the fourth slot in a superfecta, than it does for a multi-race sequence that happens to have a true chaos race. It's clear and obvious that almost any horse can hit the bottom of a superfecta, while a chaos race is not always obvious.

ultracapper
02-25-2018, 10:47 PM
Santa Anita 3/2/2018

1st- 9 horse field
2nd- 5 horse field
3rd- 5 horse field
4th- 9 horse field ($20K MCl)
5th- 9 horse field

If I can toss the favs in races 1-3 and I can nail the 1st down to 3 horses or less, single one of the 5 horse fields with confidence and narrow the other to 2, the 4th has a Pegram/Baffert, that without even looking at the form very well may be a free space at these conditions, I may play a P5 using all in the 5th. I handicap the conditions of the 1st 4 races on a regular basis and very seldom even peek at what is carded for the 5th. Have to be able to toss favs in the first 3 anyway, and singling one of either the 1st or 4th (assuming the 4th may be a freebie), I might consider it.

Max of $54 for a buck. Would go over $54 @ $1 if Baffert is hyped and can be tossed. I would consider going 2X3 in the 1st and 4th and 1X2 in the 5 horse fields to * in the 5th if I know Baffert will be odds-on and can be tossed. That would be $108 @ $1.

Not often I play these elongated horizontals just because I seldom see 4 races clumped together like these first 4 Friday. Would never make a bet like this if I had to use * twice or had to 'cap a race out of my comfort zone.

Si2see
02-26-2018, 11:20 AM
Logic dictates that the "All" is usually a waste of money and "betting on chaos" rather than having an opinion. However, early in my horse racing career I had hit the first two legs of a Pick 3 at decent prices. In the last leg I had 10 of 12 horses. One of the two I didn't have won at 30-1, and the Pick 3 paid $3500 for $1. Considering my income at the time, it definitely made me think.

I think how I saved $12 that day by not going "All" and it cost me several thousand. So, while logic dictates not using All, for peace of mind sometimes you have to do it. Or I do anyway. And let's face it---if you're betting 8 or 9 or 10 of 12 horses, you don't really have an opinion other than that the favorites are trash, so why not go for the All?


This is exactly what my partner picsix and I debate and talk about often.

Typically if we both handicap a race, lets say a 10 horse chaos race, he thinks there are 3 possible winners, I add another 2 or 3 possible winners in that leg.... What happens, one of the 4 or 5 we didn't have win at a big number.
We were correct in identifying it to be a race with a bad group of favorites, but unable to come up with the correct price horse, usually because if it looked good it wouldn't be a big price.

jay68802
02-26-2018, 11:27 AM
This is exactly what my partner picsix and I debate and talk about often.

Typically if we both handicap a race, lets say a 10 horse chaos race, he thinks there are 3 possible winners, I add another 2 or 3 possible winners in that leg.... What happens, one of the 4 or 5 we didn't have win at a big number.
We were correct in identifying it to be a race with a bad group of favorites, but unable to come up with the correct price horse, usually because if it looked good it wouldn't be a big price.

And points out 1 common thing in this thread.

Chaos = illogical

and therefore logical handicapping factors do not work well in illogical races. And puts the player in a situation that requires either risking more on the bet or passing.

Si2see
02-26-2018, 11:32 AM
Funny...the exact same thing happened to me. I had left only two horses out of the last leg of a Pick-4, and the ignored horses finished 1-2...triggering a monster payoff. I friend who looked at my racing form and saw the lines across only those two horses thought that I hit the huge exacta. But the experience reinforced my opinion to never use the all-button in the future. With my luck, I was sure that it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity...and I missed it. Truth be told, I've used the all-button in a few horizontal bets over the years...hoping to relive that fateful day. Without fail...the favorite won every time. :)


Thask,

I am in the same boat of having all in the last leg for a possible huge score, and the favorite wins more often than not. A few times I have hit the longer price.

However on the flip side of the coin, Several times I have made it to the last leg for a MONSTER payout, not having the favorite, and of course the favorite pops me for several thousand.

There are two exact scenarios I can recall.

We did a few 3 way split pick4's in vegas at a contest, hit the first 3 legs lowest price 6-1 highest 21-1 on a $40.50 play.

Last leg we were three deep second choice 9k, third 10-1 18k, 23-1 28k, all payoffs for 50 cent. Of course the favorite wins and pays $4800 and we didn't have it.

Another time when Royal delta's first breeders cup win. I ran second and third in the last leg of the pick4.

Basically what I am getting at is often times without all in the last leg ( I rarely use it in other legs of the ticket ), I am not good enough to seal the deal, as we all know it is tough to hit 4 winners in a row, especially 4 straight price horses.

GMB@BP
02-26-2018, 03:05 PM
I think there should be some clarity made between the type of bets, Pick 3’s and Pick 6’s are widely different bets and payouts, the all button for a Pick 3 would make much less sense since the payouts even with some bomb are likely going to be depressed with other players doing the same thing. The pick 6 though seems like the chance to scoop the whole pool might make some sense.

The other thing here is the arguments for include the idea that you hit some random bomb, when actually that bomb is winning 2% to maybe 4% of the time, and it has to happen when you have played your all ticket for that particular race. That seems so random to me. For example, I play the pick 6, of those six races (1/6) I played a horse who has a 2/100 chance of winning. About 300/1 chance of happening.

I would also like to run the numbers on the increase in ticket costs, compared to how much it comes in, to the payoff. All tix can become a bit pricey in the pick 5 or 6.

lamboguy
02-26-2018, 06:39 PM
the only time i have ever saw it worthwhile is when the pool at Palm Beach Jai Alai was over $500,000 before the actual day that it was hit. Jai Alai is impossible to handicap and just as hard to fix. 20 guys kicked in over $25,000 each and bought it out, the final pool was over $900,000. if one other person hit it with them by chance they would have lost. this was a pick 6 pool.

therover
02-26-2018, 10:52 PM
the day I start trying to grind out 5-2 winners will be the day I quit gambling.


Quote of the year.