Kerry's Purple Hearts

[lsbets]

Here is a serious question - what were Kerry's Purple Hearts for? I can only go by what we have heard - an arm bruise and his own grenade fragments in his butt. I know that the grenade fragments do qualify, but I thought you had to actually bleed to get a purple heart. I hate to admit it, but I never looked it up, and now I think I might be able to put most of my soldiers in for the award. I need to have knee surgery from getting bounced around in my humvee, maybe I can qualify for one. I'm serious though, I'm going to look up what qualify's for one, but I would like to know why Kerry got his. I could look it up, but I'm sure that Michael Moore, err Sec, has it ready to go.

P.S. - Has anyone read Unfit for Command yet? I haven't, but from what I understand, the book mentions that there is a picture of Kerry in the Ho Chi Minh Museum in Hanoi meeting with some North Vietnamese while the war was still ongoing. He is also given credit by the North Vietnamese, a nation we were at war with, for helping them to defeat America, the nation he wants to be President of. I think, just as Sec called F911 a must see, this book has become a must read for everyone.

[JustRalph]

I just heard on the news that Kerry's camp is now admitting that the first purple heart may have been awarded

"in error, for a self inflicted wound "

hmmmm...........

I also just heard that his journal reads "we have yet to come under enemy fire" five days after his injury for the first purple heart was supposedly sufferred.


The Plot thickens.............

[Pace Cap'n]

I don't know the regulations that govern the awarding of the Purple Heart, but I will relate a Purple Heart story.

As a USMC radio operator, I was at the time TDY to a Navy Hospital which was quite similar to a MASH unit.

I was on radio watch late one night in the company HQ along with the Officer Of The Day, a Navy Lt. Commander, when the VC started lobbing in 122mm rockets. Those suckers make one hell of a racket.

It was my responsibility to crank the siren, as if it was really necessary. I turned to tell the OOD where I was going, just in time to see him standing next to his desk and turning white as a sheet. Then he fainted. On the way down, he bumped his head on the desk. No blood, just a bump. I called a corpsman (medic) and headed on for the siren.

Well, come to find out, a few days later he put in for the Purple Heart for his head wound (bump). That he got while fainting from fear. Naturally, it was approved.

While all this was going on, the guys down in the hooches were beatin' feet for the bunkers. One dude jumped in a bunker and broke his ankle. After hearing about the Heart the officer got, everyone told him to put in for one too, which he did.

Naturally, he didn't qualify. Must have been too "enlisted".

[Lance]

From slate.com:

How To Earn a Purple Heart
Which injuries are medal-worthy?
By Sam Schechner
Posted Monday, Aug. 23, 2004, at 4:13 PM PT



In honor of war wounds

Yesterday, Bob Dole joined Republican critics who claim that Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry doesn't deserve the Purple Hearts he won in Vietnam. Dole said, "three Purple Hearts and never bled that I know of. I mean, they're all superficial wounds." But is bleeding even necessary? How do you earn a Purple Heart?

A Purple Heart is awarded to any member of the armed forces (including the Coast Guard) who is killed or wounded in action; the severity of the injury isn't really at issue. According to Navy regulations, a worthy wound is merely "an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent, sustained while in action. … A physical lesion is not required, provided the concussion or other form of injury received was a result of the action in which engaged." The other services' regulations include similar language, stipulating, as the Army's does, that "the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record."

In other words, a Band-Aid boo-boo is fair game, so long as enemy action is somewhere obvious in the causal chain. Bruises from bailing out of a plane that's been shot down could count; training injuries could not. (Interestingly, the Army rules that post-traumatic stress disorder doesn't count either.)


Continue Article

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The situations that merit the Purple Heart—which was called the Badge of Military Merit when it was first awarded, during the Revolutionary War—have been tweaked a few times since the award was revived in 1932 (on the 200th birthday of George Washington, whose bust appears in the heart). But the changes wouldn't affect Kerry's eligibility for medals in any way. The most significant modifications in the last 40 years expanded the list of injuries that might warrant a medal, adding wounds sustained during terrorist attacks and peacekeeping missions, and wounds incurred from friendly fire in the heat of battle.

Next question?


Sam Schechner is a freelance writer in New York.

[lsbets]

Thanks Lance, I checked the reg, and you have the meat of it in your post. I would still like to know what Kerry's wounds/injuries were. I always thought, and I should have known better, that you had to get wounded to get the purple heart, I never realized that injuries qualified. I know most soldiers shrug off bumps and bruises and never seek medical attention, thereby missing awards to which they are entitled, but that is the nature of a warrior - to drive on and ignore pain.

[Buckeye]

Watered down to the point of being meaningless. I was gonna vote for him but now I'm not so sure. :cool:

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Buckeye
Watered down to the point of being meaningless. I was gonna vote for him but now I'm not so sure. :cool:

Please ask yourself 3 questions.....

1. Who does Usama Bin Ladin and his like want you to vote for?

2. Who leaves more money in your wallet........

3. Do you want the President of France and Germany to have any say whatsoever in the fate of our nation?

I don't think Bush is the best we have.........but he is the best on the block at this point.............

[betchatoo]

Originally posted by JustRalph
Please ask yourself 3 questions.....

1. Who does Usama Bin Ladin and his like want you to vote for?

2. Who leaves more money in your wallet........

3. Do you want the President of France and Germany to have any say whatsoever in the fate of our nation?

I don't think Bush is the best we have.........but he is the best on the block at this point.............

1. I think Osama Bun ladn is thrilled with Bush as president. He's mostly ignored him and gone after the phantom WMD instead

2. When you don't have a job there's no money in your wallet

2. Huh??

[lsbets]

Kerry's website has his Purple Heart awards on it, but it is only a memo saying he got the award. Today the requirements of proof are much higher. For each Purple Heart, I have had to enclose the medical file, witness statements, and a narrative describing what happenned to the soldier. I was hoping to find that info on Kerry's wounds.

One thing that I did find I am hoping that someone here can resolve. Kerry received his first Purple Heart on Dec 2, 1968, yet in his journal he writes on about Dec 11, 1968 that he and his men had still not been shot at. How could he get the Purple Heart 9 days before he ever saw any action? This is by his own words. Does someone have more info on this?

[so.cal.fan]

curosity of a friend who read your post:

http://swift1.he.net/~swiftvet/index.php?topic=KerryinVietnam

[so.cal.fan]

http://www.swiftvets.com/staticpages/index.php?page=Purple1

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200405041626.asp


lsbets:

The guy that sent these to you, would very much like to buy you a beer (or two) when you get back to Lone Star Park.
Please let us know when you'll be there?

[JustMissed]

Originally posted by JustRalph
I just heard on the news that Kerry's camp is now admitting that the first purple heart may have been awarded

"in error, for a self inflicted wound "

hmmmm...........

I also just heard that his journal reads "we have yet to come under enemy fire" five days after his injury for the first purple heart was supposedly sufferred.


The Plot thickens.............

RALPH, This, if true, is a HUGE story. If Kerry now admits he got one of the PHs in error, it opens the door for his whole military record to be thorougly questioned. There will be no turning back and he will be forced to publically answer all charges.

Please post back as you get more info on this matter.

Thanks,

JM

:)

[delayjf]

Isbet,
I don't have access to the regs, but I recall an enlisted Marine who was denied a purple heart after being shot in the leg while on duty in Somalia. I think he accidently shot himself or was accidently shot by another sentry due to his own neligience. Can you clarifly for me which case would not warrent the award.

[lsbets]

Delay,

If the enemy fire was a major factor in the self inflicted wound, then the PH is awareded - some examples of when and when not

- Someone throws a grenade and is taking cover from enemy fire, so hits an obstruction and is wounded by the shrapnel (ala Bob Dole)

- While clearing their weapon, someone discharges a rond and shoots themself in the leg - no PH

The key is enemy fire and if it contributed to the wound. I someone were exiting a vehicle and shot himself while moving in haste, I would think they are ineligible, but it would depend on the details.

What I am unclear on is the issue of if you drop a grenade into a rice bin to destroy the rice and then do not run fast enough and get rice fragments in your butt if you are eligible for the PH. I have heard that was not a part of the recommendation and I have also heard that it is, and the bruise to the arm certainly warrants a PH provided that he was bruised badly enough to seek medical attention and the bruise was a result of enemy fire. If there were no bruise to the arm, I do not think the rice in the butt would qualify for a PH.

[delayjf]

That makes sence, he was on duty, but there was no enemy fire, so he would not rate.

Thanks

[Secretariat]

You're wrong DJ as usual. There was enemy fire every time.

Here's the history.

"Senator John Kerry joined the Navy after graduating from Yale University. For service in combat during the Vietnam War, Kerry received three awards of the Purple Heart, in addition to the Silver Star and the Bronze Star for his heroic actions. The Purple Heart is given to members of the armed forces who are wounded in action.

Kerry first met intense combat on December 2, 1968, when the small boat he skippered encountered the Viet Cong and engaged in a firefight. Kerry's M-16 jammed, and as he bent down to get another weapon, a hot chunk of shrapnel flew into his arm. The wound didn't cause Kerry to miss any duty, but it did qualify him for his first Purple Heart.

Shrapnel again hit Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry, this time in his left thigh, on February 20, 1969. Kerry's boat spotted enemy combatants on a riverbank and fired. A grenade hit the boat, causing shrapnel to bore into Kerry's leg and earning him another Purple Heart.

His last Purple Heart came from injuries sustained on March 13, 1969. A mine exploded under Kerry's boat and wounded him in the right arm. Despite the injury, Kerry rescued a Green Beret and assisted other damaged boats while braving sniper fire from the riverbanks. This incident earned Kerry a Bronze Star with Combat V for "calmness, professionalism, and great personal courage under fire." This final injury was the most severe and gave Kerry pain for years.

Soon after, Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry requested reassignment. Military policy allowed any serviceman who received three Purple Hearts to ask for assignment away from the combat zone, to be granted at the discretion of the commanding officer. The policy of Coastal Squadron One, the swift boat command, was to send home any individual who is wounded three times in action. After sustaining his third wound from enemy action in Vietnam, Kerry was granted relief under this policy. "

All of Kerry’s wounds (the military decided the definition of wound, I didn’t) occurred during hostile action, and hence qualified for the Purple Heart.

Purple Heart Wound requirement (btw—crewman Sandusky states he witnessed the blood contrary to Dole’s ignorant remarks. I'm a big fan of Bob Dole, but he erred in those remarks.) All wounds occurred during firefights. If the action occurs during combat with the enemy, the individual qualifies for the award. Even in Friendly Fire situation like Pat Tillman, the award is granted.

"(2) A wound is defined as an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent sustained under one or more of the conditions listed above. A physical lesion is not required, however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record. "


There is no mention of how many liters of blood must be lost.

I must again reiterate this is the most disgusting argument you guys have posted here. Personally, I don’t care whether Kerry won one or fifteen purple hearts, or blood was gushing from his neck. HE put his life on the line in the middle of combat which is something our current Commander in Chief lacked the courage to do.

[Tom]

Sec,
While you have been away, the rules around here have changed.
The "new managment" has set the bar higher, and I quote:

"Nonsense. This is not documentation. It is worthless. Give me names, dates, and quotations in context. Then we can discuss Kerry's statements in the context of the times. A clipped quotation loses the context. "


:D

[lsbets]

Sec,

That sounds like the info on Kerry's website - how owuld you respond to Kerry's own words in his journal, written approximatly 9 days after Dec 2, that his men had not yet faced enemy fire? That point needs to be clarified.

At first I had no concerns over Kerry's war record, but now I do. I have not made up my mind at all, but I do question the courage of someone who runs to the medics over a bruise. If one of my soldiers came to me and said "Sir, when the morars went off I fell into my truck, bruised my arm, and now I am entitled to a PH" I would question them and their motives. It appears that what might, and I repeat might have happenned is that Kerry talked up every boo boo to get 3 PHs and a trip home. The reasignment was voluntary, he could have turned it down, and I can tell you a true leader would rather stay with his men then head home. He needs to answer the questions about his record. He is the one who set himself up as the war hero, and that has been brought into question.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Good post all.
Phase 1 vs. Kerry was medal debate; phase 2 is underway with admitted war crimes; phase 3 will be kerry pretending to thriow his medals away, claiming he was ashamed of them.

[lsbets]

BTW - there is nothing disgusting about an American citizen asking tough questions of someone who wants to be commander in chief. He posed as the hero, but he won't answer the questions that have been raised about his heroism. My questions come from the fact that I know quite a bit about the military and the descriptions that I have heard, from both sides, are pretty incomplete. I'd like answers, not your grandtsanding Sec.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Julia Kerry, John's former wife, who was with her husband the entire week, came to the conclusion that the veterans had been in deep depression and denial. "There was so much buried pain," she recalled. "It was numbing to witness." On the last day the veterans also planted a tree, as a symbolic gesture for the preservation of life over death. "The truly impressive thing was that no acts of violence had been committed that entire week," Sen. Kerry recalled. "We had just promised to be nonviolent and we were."

Recent critics of Kerry assert that his Dewey County III ceremony is a metaphor for a lifetime of political flip-flopping. For Kerry, giving up his ribbons -- the objects he had with him in Washington that week -- made perfect sense. To his way of thinking, he was symbolically returning his medals to the U.S. government by tossing his ribbons. Even Sen. Stuart Symington, D-Mo., when preparing to cross-examine Kerry at the Fulbright committee meeting, asked him what the "medals" on his chest represented. They weren't medals, they were ribbons; it was -- and is -- a common mistake. From Kerry's vantage point, there is nothing contradictory about his statement to "Viewpoints" that he had given back "six, seven, eight, nine medals." To have said that he had given back ribbons but that his medals were at home would have simply confused the TV audience.

Still, the persistent resurrection of this issue means Kerry should have been more exact in his language back in 1971. Clarity is usually a virtue in politics. But we should also remember that he earned those medals/ribbons. The shrapnel in his thigh should remind us of that sacrifice. It is a tangible souvenir from Vietnam that is still with him every day.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Thank you for not confusing us. LOL.

[JustMissed]

Originally posted by Secretariat
You're wrong DJ as usual. There was enemy fire every time.


This story is still developing, but here's a snipet from the drudge.report:[Quote]FLASH: 'SWIFT BOAT VETERANS FOR TRUTH' RAISED $1,764,000 IN DONATIONS ON WEBSITE IN PAST 2 WEEKS, SOURCES TELL DRUDGE...

Kerry's campaign now says is possible first Purple Heart was awarded for unintentional self-inflicted wound...


Kerry received Purple Heart for wounds suffered on 12/2/68...


In Kerry's own journal written 9 days later, he writes he and his crew, quote, 'hadn't been shot at yet'... Developing...[EndQuote]

Let's see, was he lying then or is he lying now-hehehe.

You DemLibs are toast. The election for kerry is almost all but lost.

JM
:)

[so.cal.fan]

I'm not so sure they have lost JM.....however several Democrats I know, including myself are very leary of Kerry.
I intuitively didn't like this man the moment I saw him and heard him speak.......didn't know why at the time.
I voted for Joe Leiberman in the California primary.....I wish he was the Democratic candidate. He is straight forward, honest, and I think would be a good president....but he didn't get the support of the Dem. party........
John Kerry will win California, with or without my vote.....I will vote anyway, but not for him.
I don't think I would have voted for him even if this unfortunate information hadn't come out via the swiftboat vets......I don't know if all they say is true....however....where there is smoke their is usually fire......remember when there were all those rumors about Bill Clinton being a womanizer before he was elected, they were downplayed, but of course proved to be true.
Btw, I did vote for Bill Clinton, twice......because I liked him personally, I guess.......

[Secretariat]

Jm,

No one is denying that the first purple heart occurred when his M-16 jammed during a firefight.

"Kerry first met intense combat on December 2, 1968, when the small boat he skippered encountered the Viet Cong and engaged in a firefight. Kerry's M-16 jammed, and as he bent down to get another weapon, a hot chunk of shrapnel flew into his arm. The wound didn't cause Kerry to miss any duty, but it did qualify him for his first Purple Heart."

Isbets,

The info I posted was not from Kerry's website. You asked "how" he got the wounds. I posted it, but of course you chose not to beleive it. The purple heart "wound" defintion is directly from the military's language on the award. Don't trust me, check out out yourself, but I suppose you've already made up your mind.

I found it interesting that no one responded to my last statement -

"I must again reiterate this is the most disgusting argument you guys have posted here. Personally, I don’t care whether Kerry won one or fifteen purple hearts, or blood was gushing from his neck. HE put his life on the line in the middle of combat which is something our current Commander in Chief lacked the courage to do."

I guess if you have no record to run on then you go to this kind of advertising. Bush did it in South Carolina to McCain, why should we expect any less this time. I originally thought the man was just incompetent, and manipulated by the PNAC boys. I now see he'll do anything to win. Was just out at the VA hospital for my father-in-law. Talked to a couple doctors out there. THey said everything is being cut. Now that's the record I'd like to be talking about.

[schweitz]

Originally posted by Secretariat


I guess if you have no record to run on then you go to this kind of advertising. Bush did it in South Carolina to McCain, why should we expect any less this time. I originally thought the man was just incompetent, and manipulated by the PNAC boys. I now see he'll do anything to win.

What I find interesting is that when Clarke , Wilson, moveon.org, and Moore attacked Bush the rightys on this board criticized the sources---not Kerry--but you feel the need to criticize Bush and not the source.

[lsbets]

Sec,

You never answered my question - how do you deal with the discrepancy between Kerry's own journal and his first PH? I've looked up the regs - there has to be enemy fire. Kerry wrote in his journal that he had not been shot at 9 days after the day that he was injured for the first time. Who did he lie to? Himself?

And Sec, I responded to your question. Look again.

[Tom]

Sec wonders:
"I found it interesting that no one responded to my last statement -

"I must again reiterate this is the most disgusting argument you guys have posted here. Personally, I don’t care whether Kerry won one or fifteen purple hearts, or blood was gushing from his neck. HE put his life on the line in the middle of combat which is something our current Commander in Chief lacked the courage to do."

He was in the line of fire, he was shot at, he deserves credit and respect for that. He got out early, met with the ENEMY-VIET CONG- in Paris, then came home and advocated the immediate withdrawl of US troops and the payment of reparations, and then he called those still over there muderers, criminal, etc. For that, he deserves what he is getting today. God Damn this traitor to hell. You think Kerry is better suited to be president than Bush becase he was in Viet Nam? That is just plain stupid thinking. By your logic, the a few hunder thousand people are qualitifed to be president. How did getting shot at qualify him? YOU have ignored my question - if his combat years, er, days, prepared him to leadm then why is he not focusing on his 20 years in the senate, which came later on and should have showcased the skills he developed in the jungles. That is far more relevant to being a president, wouldn't you say?
I hire people in my work life. I look at the candidate's performance in his last job, not the good job he did as a paperboy 30 years ago. Although having a paper route does build character, I have other things Ineed people to be able to do in the real world.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by lsbets
Sec,

You never answered my question - how do you deal with the discrepancy between Kerry's own journal and his first PH? I've looked up the regs - there has to be enemy fire. Kerry wrote in his journal that he had not been shot at 9 days after the day that he was injured for the first time. Who did he lie to? Himself?

And Sec, I responded to your question. Look again.

A. There was enemy fire, however even friendly fire, and explosive devices qualify.

B. Kerr's first PH occured in a combat firefight 15 days after his arrival in Nam.

C. You still did not address my question about Bush's record. Instead you seem pre-occupied with questioning one of Kerry's three Purple Hearts, ignoring his Bronze Star and Silver Star, and the testmimony by his own crewman. Let's hope your men will remember things the same way you and the military did 40 years later.

Isbets, you are the one guy on this board I am surprised would get caught up in this nonsense of "how" bad was the wound, was there fire (It's been attested to by his crewman). This is a man who won the silver Star and Bronze Star for Christ's sake and after 40 years stil lhas the support and memory of his crewmen. Are you that partisan that you beleive the miltary totally screwed up, and that Kerry had some plan to implant shrapnel into leg 40 years ago to win medals, so he could run for President 40 years later, and paid off his crewmen so that they would lie for him, including Republicans such as Rassaman.

Unbeleivable.

Here's the Bush-Kerry record for you to compare:

Here’s Kerry:

February 18, 1966:
A senior at Yale, Kerry commits to enlist in the Navy.

December, 1967:
Kerry is assigned as an Ensign to the guided-missile frigate USS Gridley. After five-months aboard, he returns to San Diego to undergo training to command a Swift boat, used by the Navy for patrols in Vietnam

June, 1968:
Kerry is promoted to Lieutenant.

November 17, 1968:
Kerry arrives in Vietnam, where he is given command of Swift boat No. 44, operating in the Mekong Delta.

December 2, 1968:
Kerry gets his first taste of intense combat, and is wounded in the arm. He is awarded a Purple Heart. (15 days after arriving in Vietnam)

January, 1969:
Kerry takes command of a new Swift boat, completing 18 missions over 48 days, almost all in the Mekong Delta area.

February 20, 1969:
Kerry is wounded again, taking shrapnel in the left thigh, after a gunboat battle. He is awarded a second Purple Heart.

February 28, 1969:
Kerry and his boat crew, coming under attack while patroling in the Mekong Delta, decide to counterattack. In the middle of the ensuing firefight, Kerry leaves his boat, pursues a Viet Cong fighter into a small hut, kills him, and retreives a rocket launcher. He is awarded a Silver Star.

March 13, 1969:
A mine detonates near Kerry's boat, wounding him in the right arm. He is awarded a third Purple Heart. He is also awarded a Bronze Star for pulling a crew member, who had fallen overboard, back on the boat amidst a firefight.

April, 1969:
According to Navy rules, sailors that have been wounded three times in combat are eligible to be transfered to the U.S. for noncombat duty. Kerry is transferred to desk duty in Brooklyn, NY.

Now let’s compare the Bush record below:

May 27, 1968:
Bush enlists in Texas Air National Guard. Aided by Texas House Speaker Ben Barnes, he jumps over waiting list.

June 9, 1968:
Bush's student deferment expires.

September 1968:
After basic training, Bush pulls inactive duty to act as gopher on Florida Senator Edward J. Gurney's campaign.

November 1968:
After Gurney wins, Bush is reactivated and transferred to Georgia.

November 1969:
Bush is flown to the White House by President Nixon for a date with daughter Tricia

December 1969:
Bush transfers to Houston and moves into Chateaux Dijon complex.

June 1970:
Bush joins the Guard's "Champagne Unit," where he flies with sons of Texas' elite.

November 7, 1970:
Bush is promoted to first lieutenant. Rejected by University of Texas School of Law.

January 1971:
The Texas Air National Guard begins testing for drugs during physicals.

May 26, 1972:
Bush transfers to Alabama Guard unit so he can work on Senator William Blount's reelection campaign. According to his commanding officer, Bush never shows up for duty while in Alabama.

August 1972:
Bush is grounded for missing a mandatory physical.

November 1972:
Bush returns to Houston, but never reports for Guard duty.

December 1972:
In D.C. for the holidays, Bush takes 16-year-old brother Marvin drinking and driving. Confronted by father, Bush suggests they settle it "mano a mano."

October 1, 1973:
The Air National Guard relieves Bush from commitment eight months early, allowing him to attend Harvard Business School

2004
Bush states he has released all of his military records. None of the records show the awarding of any medals for service. Gaps in his attendance record remain unanswered.

Frankly, I don't like to deal with this stuff as the issues of today are taking a back seat to Vietnam. We fought that damn war, and it was a mistake. Even Ford and McNamara admitted it afer the fact.

Bit if you rightwingers want to compare the service of Kerry to Bush, bring it on. Get it all out. Because that is one comparision that is almost embarassing for Mr. Bush. (not to mention the honorable service of Mr. Cheney, and of course Mr. Limbaugh, the boil butt deferment). Not sure if Hannity served so I'll reserve my comment on him.

[lsbets]

Sec, you obviously have totally missed everything that I have said. At first I said I don't care about different recollections of Kerry's war record, but then more and more started coming out and it started raising questions. I am basing my questions on KERRY's own words in his journal, not on the swift boat vets. He's the one who said he never came under fire on Dec 2 - John Kerry, he said it in his journal. If that doesn't raise questions for you, than what does?

Bush's record has been looked at and talked about since before he ran for President, but there is a big difference. Bush did not present himself as a war hero. Kerry did, and that opens him up to questioning.

My first post here asked about the cause of his Purple Hearts, and I stated that I always thought you had to get wounded to get one. I never looked up the reg before, I never had someone come to me and say "I got bruised I want a Purple Heart". I looked at the reg, and yes, a bruise would qualify, but your statement that friendly fire qualifies is incorrect. Friendly fire only qualifies if the primary cause of a friendly fire incident was the presence of enemy fire. A negligent discharge of someone's weapon does not qualify. Explosive devices from the enemy are considered enemy fire.

I would think that the discrepencies brought up by Kerry's own words would give you pause. Apparently they do not. What I find disgusting is your total willingness to condemn 250 men who served honorably and with distinction simply because they do not support the man that you do - a man they know a hell of a lot better than you do.

Don't try to get high handed with me about Kerry's military record. There is nothing that I hold more dear than duty, honor, and country, and from what I have heard, I have some serious questions, and as an American, I have the right to ask those questions. That is what I and my comrades are fighting for right now, so if you don't like me asking, than shut the F up and let someone answer who cares about getting answers. And if my soldiers remember things differently than I do when we get home, I could really care less, because the fact that they are alive to have different recollections means that I have done my job.

[lsbets]

And for the record, I am questioning two of his Purple Hearts - the first one and the ticket home. I am questioning whether he was even eligible for the first one, based on his own writings in his journal. I am not disputing his eligibility for the third one, what I am questioning there is, to use today's popular Army term, his warrior ethos. All you have to do is answer the questions - explain how 9 days after his first injury he writes in his journal that he and his men had yet to be shot at, and what was the 3rd PH for? Was he wounded with shrapnel (the rice in the butt doesn't count, there was no fire at the time) or did he bruise his arm when he fell against the ship? What was it for? That is not a partisan question, that is based on my experiences in the military, and the fact that I would not want a sick call ranger leading troops. If it was only for the bruise, I can understand why his peers, those who commanded the other swift boats in his unit, have nothing but disdain for him. If that is not the case, I would like to know. I have been unable to find a definative answer.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by lsbets
And for the record, I am questioning two of his Purple Hearts - the first one and the ticket home. I am questioning whether he was even eligible for the first one, based on his own writings in his journal. I am not disputing his eligibility for the third one, what I am questioning there is, to use today's popular Army term, his warrior ethos. All you have to do is answer the questions - explain how 9 days after his first injury he writes in his journal that he and his men had yet to be shot at, and what was the 3rd PH for? Was he wounded with shrapnel (the rice in the butt doesn't count, there was no fire at the time) or did he bruise his arm when he fell against the ship? What was it for? That is not a partisan question, that is based on my experiences in the military, and the fact that I would not want a sick call ranger leading troops. If it was only for the bruise, I can understand why his peers, those who commanded the other swift boats in his unit, have nothing but disdain for him. If that is not the case, I would like to know. I have been unable to find a definative answer.

Well, I hope you get your men home too. We all do. Not only did John Kerry get his men home, but they also stand by him to this day.

I don't have a copy of John Kerry's Vietnam Journal handy (didn't know it was sold commercially), but have read excerpts posted in the Boston Globe. I didn't know it was in print and you had an actual copy of his Journal. Perhaps you could type in here the entire entry in the journal relating to the incident.

As to answers, why don't you just read factcheck.org. which goes into detail about all these accusations

http://factcheck.org/printerFriendly.aspx?docid=231

They debunk these SBV's completely.

You really do hate John Kerry don't you? Why else would you call him a "sick call ranger" after knowing the bravery demonstrated by him on acheiving the Silver Star or Bronze Star. You state you see why the SWV's have nothing for disdain for him. Obviously his men did not. You view him as some kind of medal grandstander trying to win Purple Hearts. Well, he didn't award himself those medals, someone else did. And his crewmen say it happened. I'm inclined to beleive them, than a group funded by a large Republican party contributor in the heat of an election.

John Kerry is a war hero and his Silver Star and Bronze star attest to it. He was wounded and his blood fell in defense of our country. Question it all you want. It is documented and has been for 40 years.

I don't know about you, but when my crew collectively said something happened we pretty much beleived it.

[lsbets]

Factcheck.prg says they got their information from the Kerry campaign, there is a neutral source.

I don't hate John Kerry, I don't know him. I have some legitimate questions about him. You dismiss questions as hate, thats sad. And John Kerry did not get his men home, he didn't finish his tour. If he were comitted to bringing them home, he would have turned down the reasignment.

You have done nothing to answer legitimate questions, all you have done is attempt to cloud the issue with rhetoric. I am really starting to think that you are Michael Moore.

[PaceAdvantage]

Everything was honky dorey when Kerry supporters were "just asking questions" and exercising "free speech" not too long ago.

Now all of a sudden it isn't cool anymore....


Hmmmmmmmm.......

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by lsbets
Factcheck.prg says they got their information from the Kerry campaign, there is a neutral source.

I don't hate John Kerry, I don't know him. I have some legitimate questions about him. You dismiss questions as hate, thats sad. And John Kerry did not get his men home, he didn't finish his tour. If he were comitted to bringing them home, he would have turned down the reasignment.

You have done nothing to answer legitimate questions, all you have done is attempt to cloud the issue with rhetoric. I am really starting to think that you are Michael Moore.

Oh boy. Now factcheck.org is not good enough. I guess limbaugh.org is the place to go.

Whew...well here's another factcheck.org

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=244

I don't have a problem with legitimate questions. I do have a problem with questions raised 40 years after the fact funded by a Republican supporter of Bush questioning the integrity of his Kerry's crew's observations.

The question on Cambodia is a good question. Personally, I think it a small issue in light of Kerry's service record, perhaps he was in Cambodia in Jan, rather than Christmas, or perhaps he was miles away from the border. Frankly, this stuff being brought out, as well as Bush's service record, is for crude politcal purposes. I do not like it, I'd rather talk about Bush's massive deficits during his watch, or his gung ho invasion of Iraq based on flawed intelligence, or his failure to fund his No Child Left Beind Act, or his cuts to VA hospitals, or his ignoring of the environment, or the rising gas prices since he has taken office, or his alienation of other countries, or his restrictions on our personal liberties via the Patriot Act, or half a dozen other things. I don't like bringing up the AWOL crap, or his frat boy boozing while Nam was ongoing. Frankly, we were all young once, and we screwed up. I don't fault him for that. I do resent that others had to serve while he got a free pass out because of connections. But I think the issue is what is his current record in office, and what policies does he have for a second term. I am dramatically opposed to almost all of them.

I don't want to fight that damn Vietnam argument all over again.

[lsbets]

Sec,

I would love to talk about Kerry's record in the Senate - one of the worst on national defense, but it is Kerry who chose to make Vietnam the centerpiece of his campaign.

To answer your question about his journal, it comes from Tour of Duty, the book by Brinkley. On Dec 11th, Kerry wrote that as his men pulled out on a mission, that"

"A cocky feeling of invincibility accompanied us up the Long Tau shipping channel because we hadn't been shot at yet, and Americans at war who haven't been shot at are allowed to be cocky."

Kerry's own words - now we have 2 incidents. If something is seared in my memory, I have no doubt about when or where it was. And Kerry wrote that as of Dec 11th, his men had yet to be shot at. Either he has a really, really bad memory, or he should hire Aesop to ghost write his autobiography.

[JustRalph]

factcheck.org is owned by a company out of the "Caymen Islands" what is up with that? anybody care to guess........

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Secretariat


I don't have a problem with legitimate questions. I do have a problem with questions raised 40 years after the fact funded by a Republican supporter of Bush questioning the integrity of his Kerry's crew's observations.

The question on Cambodia is a good question. Personally, I think it a small issue in light of Kerry's service record, perhaps he was in Cambodia in Jan, rather than Christmas, or perhaps he was miles away from the border.

I don't want to fight that damn Vietnam argument all over again.


Sec,

I donated a few bones to the SVFT group myself, and I'm not connected to GWB in any way shape or form. You just don't get it. This is not about GWB, it's about an officer named John Kerry who was entrusted as an officer and a gentleman who then abused that trust per his superiors.

Every single officer in Kerry's upward chain of command claim he's Unfit to Command. Every single one.

If Perot had 254 former employees or college classmates step foreward in 1992 and say he was not to be trusted to lead, the networks would have run with that story the day it came out. Contrast that to what's going on today.

Point is, it's fair to challenge Kerry on his words. Already he's been proven to lie about his purple heart #1 (dec 2), and his 3rd purple heart (mar13)seems to be shady as well. His Bronze star (BSM) (mar 13) was given to him even though the facts state he was lying in his account/ AAR's. The Washington Post graphic that so cal fan posted Sunday proved that the Swift's account was correct. Kerry's and Rasssmann's accounts were inaccurate. Here's teh link again, note the bottom of the page.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/graphics/swiftboat_082104.html

Look at the bottom of the page and check the graphic closely. Kerry fled the scene of the explosion, whereas Thurlow and Chenowith sped to the PCF that was mined to help the crew that were blown out of the water and on the damaged craft. The graphic and report is the result of the Post's research of "eyewitness accounts and Naval Records". Unfortunately for Kerry, they didn't take the info off his website.

Don't try to turn this around on GWB, this issue is one Kerry brought on himself. I didn't see GWB ride into the 2000 convention on a baseball bat, nor on a F102. He promised to lead the nation better than his opponent. This particular issue is about John Kerry being UNfit to Command. If he wanted to make his 4 month stint in Vietnam his centerpiece of his candidacy, so be it....Fair game, game on.

[eclecticapper]

Originally posted by JustRalph
factcheck.org is owned by a company out of the "Caymen Islands" what is up with that? anybody care to guess........

Factcheck.org is administered by the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania. It's non-partisan and if you check the recent headlines on the site you'll notice they're not fans of either candidate. In addition to the Vietnam issue, they've recently done articles on Kerry's poor attendance record, his questionable claim about the "new jobs paying $9,000 less than the old jobs" (info which he actually got from an analysis done by the left wing Economic Policy Institute) and so on. I'm wondering if the Cayman Islands registration is for factcheck.com, a completely different web site.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by lsbets
Sec,

I would love to talk about Kerry's record in the Senate - one of the worst on national defense, but it is Kerry who chose to make Vietnam the centerpiece of his campaign.

To answer your question about his journal, it comes from Tour of Duty, the book by Brinkley. On Dec 11th, Kerry wrote that as his men pulled out on a mission, that"

"A cocky feeling of invincibility accompanied us up the Long Tau shipping channel because we hadn't been shot at yet, and Americans at war who haven't been shot at are allowed to be cocky."

Kerry's own words - now we have 2 incidents. If something is seared in my memory, I have no doubt about when or where it was. And Kerry wrote that as of Dec 11th, his men had yet to be shot at. Either he has a really, really bad memory, or he should hire Aesop to ghost write his autobiography.

So you take that Dec. 11th quote from Brinkley's book Tour of Duty, about "not being shot at" to mean, never being shot at since arriving in Nam, rather than not being shot at today on the trip of the channel. Do the other comments by Kery's shipmates mean nothing to you? If this is the quote, I certainly don't interpret it the same as you.

btw..Vietnam is not the centerpeice of Kerrry's command, service is. And you can look for loopholes in a Purple Heart here or there, an obscure statement from a Journal you have apparently never actually read, or some vets who were dismayed by his Senate speech in 1971 where he was reporting on what was said by other vets at the VVAW in Detroit, but it is being done for partisan purposes because some vets , and not because anyone really questions his honorable service in Nam.

As to eclectic's statement about this not having to do with GW. Of course it has to do with GW. The major donor to his party funded these ads. GW has not directly denounced this ad, but instead denounces the process of 527s. Bush's own miltary records are sealed in the Buish library, yet he publicly proclaims he has released all of his records. Kerry has revealed all of his records with the exception of the medical report on PH 1.

I understand a few vets are angry that Kerry revealed some other vets stories in 1971. Factcheck.org reveals the truth of what Kerry spoke in 71. I understand people don't want to beleive bad things happen in the military. They'd like to pretend My Lai didn't occur, or Abu Ghraib didn't occur today, yet the report coming out pf those hearings are showing that good people sometimes do horrible things in times of great stress.

I still will donate money to the SWV's to air ALL of Kerry's 1971 speech in its entirety without trimming ,without cutting out of context and let the American people decide. I have absolutely no problem with that. Even conservative Geroge Will has said the same.

[eclecticapper]

As to eclectic's statement about this not having to do with GW...

What are you talking about? I made no such statement.

[lsbets]

Sec, I gotta tell you, your words about Kerry's own quote remind me of something from a few years ago:

What is the definition of is?

Give me a break, you are stretching big time now. I'll demand that Bush condemn these ads once Kerry condemns F911 - a film the Dems were apparantly so proud of they had MM sit next to Carter in a seat of honor at thier convention. You can say it was a film not a campaign ad, but any intelligent humand being realizes that it was nothing more than anti Bush propoganda. Even the lefties who I know personally and who would never vote for Bush said that the film was laughable in that regard. It was put out for one reason and one reason only, to hurt Bush in the election year. It is a two hour anti Bush political ad.

Here would be an intersting topic. Lets compare MM and his life work to those of the Swift Vets. I can guarantee that the libs would not want to do that, because only a dellusional fool would think MM would come out on top.

Sec, the fact is the swift vets claims have raised some concerns with the American people, and have therefore become a major distraction to the Kerry campaign. He is way off message and barely keeping his head above water. This is hurting him bad, which is why his surrogates are doing everything to distract people from the questions raised rather than answer them head on. Attacking the vets themselves has done nothing to help Kerry, it angered a loit of people, myself included, who gave the issue little attention at first, but then began to look deeper after seeing mass character assasination against 250 men who served honorably and voiced their opinions.

Is this the type of leadership Kerry would bring to the White House? A "how dare you question me" attitude? Personal attacks on anyone who dare speak out against him? Distraction rather than answers? Its scary Sec, truly scary. Who would you expect to give money to the swift vets - George Soros? The issue of who gave them money has nothing to do with the message they have put out there, and is only an attempt to distract the American people from the concerns that they raised. Even your precious Washington Post said that both Kerry and the swift vets have failed to provide accurate accounts of what happenned. All the American people are looking for is answers, and Kerry is not providing them.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Secretariat
So you take that Dec. 11th quote from Brinkley's book Tour of Duty, about "not being shot at" to mean, never being shot at since arriving in Nam, rather than not being shot at today on the trip of the channel. >***Do the other comments by Kery's shipmates mean nothing to you?***<

Sec,

Link me to ANY individual that backed up Kerry's claim of being fired upon for that first purple heart.

I've watched you redirect facts on this issue (swiftvets claims) for weeks. I won't allow you to stray from facts on this, Sec. If you try to tie this into another Kerry lie, I'll redirect you back to the first PH event....Please link, or name an individual that backs Kerry on this first PH.

[Tom]

Funny how what goes around comes around.
The libs can't take what they dish out.
Free speech is ok unless it might make you look bad.
the 527s prohibit involvment by the condidates,but there sat MM as a guest at the DNC convention. Sending out pit bulls to do your dirty work is ok unless they send them after YOU!
Another case of Kerry's cowardice in life.

[chickenhead]

Originally posted by ElKabong
Sec,

Link me to ANY individual that backed up Kerry's claim of being fired upon for that first purple heart.

I've watched you redirect facts on this issue (swiftvets claims) for weeks. I won't allow you to stray from facts on this, Sec. If you try to tie this into another Kerry lie, I'll redirect you back to the first PH event....Please link, or name an individual that backs Kerry on this first PH.

here is some stuff about his third PH...

"Thurlow, the commander of another swift boat who won a Bronze Star for helping the crew of PCF-3, insists there was no enemy gunfire during the incident. The citation and recommendation for Thurlow's Bronze Star, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, also mention enemy fire, however.

Thurlow's medal recommendation, for example, says he helped the PCF-3 crew "under constant enemy small arms fire." That recommendation is signed by George Elliott, another member of the anti-Kerry group. It lists as the only witness for the incident Robert Eugene Lambert, an enlisted man who was not on Kerry's boat who also won the Bronze Star that day."


doesn't sound like Kerry's story has changed as much as these guy's story has over the years....hard to know who's telling the truth.....

[kenwoodallpromos]

"HE put his life on the line in the middle of combat which is something our current Commander in Chief lacked the courage to do."
1 you must be a mind reader.
2- GWB's official record shows no AWOL- and if you ignore official records, Kerry loses bigtime.
3- I flew in many military aircraft, and watched them fly off and on the USS Enterprise- a few crashed- it takes courage to pilot those regardless.
4- 9/11, when Kerry and the other Demo leaders "could not think", Bush was in the air prior to getting air support- endangering his own life, as there were still commercial airliners flying. That and Cheney's staying in DC takes a certain amount of courage and quick unwavering thinking.
Check the number of presidents who had attempts on their life- including both Bushes. When you run for president, you are taking your life in your hands.
Neither I or Bush would claim Kerry lacks courage.
For you to say that you are either extremely naive' or a brainwashed Bush-hater.
I may still write in Nader.

[JustRalph]

Let me ask one question.........

You have a choice of going to Vietnam at the whim of the Army or Navy etc. or joining the guard and learning to fly a fighter jet.

I don't know.........how many 20 something kids would have passed up the Guard and flying the Jet? Not many..........

[JustMissed]

Ken, I enjoyed your post and am not being critical but I wonder if we start defending Presdent Bush's military record are we not starting to play lying john kerry's game.

Bush does not need defending. He did nothing wrong.

Bush never ran on his military record and it does not need defending, after all, he has already been elected on his record.

What we need to do is to always ATTACK,ATTACK ,ATTACK.

Lying john kerry is the challenger and its on him to prove he would be a better Commander In Chief than Bush.

Lying john kerry is the one that decided to run on his war record. By God, let him defend it then.

Remember, ATTACK,ATTACK,ATTACK.

JM:)

[chickenhead]

I just can't beleive that my choices are these two aholes. Is this what politics is? Is this what I'm gonna have to deal with for the next 60 YEARS of my life? You guys can just tell me now...cause if THIS...jerkoffs like these guys, is what I can expect from here to eternity...I'm moving to a cabin in Idaho, buying me some guns....no TV no nothing...and I'm going to shoot anyone that comes near me with a newspaper or news of the day. Just let me humbly till the earth and walk the land...leave me out of it...

people are always griping about how amazing it is that only 60% or whatever of the population votes......I'm amazed it's that high! With these choices!

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by ElKabong
Sec,

Link me to ANY individual that backed up Kerry's claim of being fired upon for that first purple heart.

I've watched you redirect facts on this issue (swiftvets claims) for weeks. I won't allow you to stray from facts on this, Sec. If you try to tie this into another Kerry lie, I'll redirect you back to the first PH event....Please link, or name an individual that backs Kerry on this first PH.


Come on, sec. Waiting for one of you libs to name an individual and link quotes that backs up Kerry *first PH*. I'll bump it till you reply.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by chickenhead
here is some stuff about his third PH...

"Thurlow, the commander of another swift boat who won a Bronze Star for helping the crew of PCF-3, insists there was no enemy gunfire during the incident. The citation and recommendation for Thurlow's Bronze Star, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, also mention enemy fire, however.

Thurlow's medal recommendation, for example, says he helped the PCF-3 crew "under constant enemy small arms fire." That recommendation is signed by George Elliott, another member of the anti-Kerry group. It lists as the only witness for the incident Robert Eugene Lambert, an enlisted man who was not on Kerry's boat who also won the Bronze Star that day."


doesn't sound like Kerry's story has changed as much as these guy's story has over the years....hard to know who's telling the truth.....


Where is Thurlow changing his story, chick? He's always maintained the same account. He and other SVFT officers that were there that day give the exact same account. It's Kerry and Rassmann's versions that change.

Thurlow and Chenowith state flatly that the only rounds fired that day (mar 13) were suppression rounds afte the mine was detonated. No rounds were returned (thus, no "firefight").

On Kerry's (fantasy driven) after action report, he reported a firefight. Kerry was the only OIC of a boat that day that reported taking fire.

Thurlow didn't rec'v his bronze star citation until AFTER he left the Navy. By then he couldn't care less and didn't find out who reported a firefight on his AAR until later...it was Kerry, who was searching for his ticket out of Nam.

Btw, Thurlow was asked to sign a form 180 by the kerry peopel "to prove his story". Thurlow signed the form 180 last Friday. He has nothing to hide......WHY won't Kerry sign a 180 ?

As I stated earlier, Elliott trusted Kerry as an officer and a gentleman. Turns out Kerry couldn't be trusted at all. Elliott is on record as saying Kerry gave him one account on a previous action (feb28), then gave a totally different account in his book Tour of Duty. Obviously Kerry had developed a pattern of reporting one thing in the field, yet another when he got home.

Here's Elliott's quotes in the link provided. It contains TWO notarized statements. Please read them both. Kerry didn't state on his AAR he shot a wounded VC in the back. It stated an altogether different account.

http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net/unfit_aff.html

No one is questioning whether Kerry is in the right to shoot a VC in the back w/ a b40 launcher. They're confronting Kerry's habit of bending the truth to his favor. Thus, Unfit for Command.

Now tell me, WHERE is Thurlow's different account of the story? I can link multiple differences in kerry and rassmann, but you need to be specific, chick.

[chickenhead]

Thurlow accepted a Bronze star based on an account that he knew was not true....that is what you are saying?

To me, accepting a medal for something you did...then saying you never did it....that is changing your story...

what am i missing?

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by chickenhead
Thurlow accepted a Bronze star based on an account that he knew was not true....that is what you are saying?

To me, accepting a medal for something you did...then saying you never did it....that is changing your story...

what am i missing?

Just as I said, Thurlow recv'd his medal AFTER he left the Navy. After released, he *couldn't care less* about collecting citations or medals.

You assume everyone had the spare time (like kerry apparently did) to fight the system to change his records. Once in civilian life, Thurlow probably didn't want to deal with the hassle.

He *does* care about Kerry's abilty to lead. That's the subject.

[chickenhead]

he should have thrown it over a fence then I guess.



Who is this guy Lambert that is listed as the witness on Thurlow's citation?

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by chickenhead
Thurlow accepted a Bronze star based on an account that he knew was not true....that is what you are saying?

To me, accepting a medal for something you did...then saying you never did it....that is changing your story...

what am i missing?


Btw, I asked you to supply a quote where Thurlow changed his story. Give me a quote, a link, an after action report.....anything.

I haven't seen him change his story (listened another interview of his last nite), but if you say his story changed, I want to see some proof.

[chickenhead]

Originally posted by ElKabong
Btw, I asked you to supply a quote where Thurlow changed his story. Give me a quote, a link, an after action report.....anything.


you assume everyone has the spare time, like you, to dig this crap up.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by chickenhead
he should have thrown it over a fence then I guess.



Who is this guy Lambert that is listed as the witness on Thurlow's citation?

Don't know Lambert....why not go to this site linked below and ask for yourself? They'll be happy to inform you. Post your query in the forum "swift boat veterans for truth". Many that served on boats post there.

http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by chickenhead
you assume everyone has the spare time, like you, to dig this crap up.

Actually, I assume people would bother to find out facts on their own before posting up.

Truth isn't "crap". The Very Kerry 1968 Christmas in Cambodia....now there's crap.

[chickenhead]

I will go to that site...thanks for the link...as for the rest of your post...get off your high horse Mr. Kabong....

[chickenhead]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1963&e=1&u=/ap/20040825/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_critic_swift_boats

if anyone sees an actual transcript of this conversation, or a larger exerpt from it, please post a link to it here. I'd like to read it.

[ElKabong]

Chick,

I simply asked you to provide proof to your statement that Thurlow and teh swifts changed their story....Still waiting, in fact.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by chickenhead
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1963&e=1&u=/ap/20040825/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_critic_swift_boats

if anyone sees an actual transcript of this conversation, or a larger exerpt from it, please post a link to it here. I'd like to read it.



Here is something that should be of help on the subject, while I don't have anything further on O'neill's quote.... While Kerry was NOT in cambodia for Xmas 1968, many were performing in this unit linked.

http://www.pcf45.com/sealords/hatien/hatien.html

snippett---On 6 March 1970, while patroling the Giang Thanh in tandem, PCF 9 and PCF 96 were taken under attack by enemy units firing B-40 rockets from concealed positons on the Cambodian side of the river. PCF 9 was hit in the bow, but the Swift was able exit the ambush zone while returning fire, killing several of the attackers and causing the rest to retreat. PCF 96 was not so lucky, receiving three direct hits. Two had entered close together on the starboard bow, and the third blew a hole in the starboard side near the engine room. The blast from this latter hit blew off the life raft from the cabin overhead, and also knocked the crewman stationed in the gun tub down into the pilot house.

[chickenhead]

First...I said "these guys"

Second
"Thurlow's medal recommendation, for example, says he helped the PCF-3 crew "under constant enemy small arms fire." That recommendation is signed by George Elliott, another member of the anti-Kerry group. It lists as the only witness for the incident Robert Eugene Lambert, an enlisted man who was not on Kerry's boat who also won the Bronze Star that day."

So Elliot signed a piece of paper saying this is what happened...based on what Lambert witnessed....then Thurlow accepted an award for what that paper said happened.....now Elliot says he doesn't know what happened...Thurlow says it never happened.....and Lambert...well, who knows what he thinks...he was only THE WITNESS....but he surely said at one point that it happened.

That is a changing story, ElKabong. Now, you can I'm sure make some good arguments as to why their stories have changed.....but the FACT is the story has changed.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by kenwoodallpromos
"HE put his life on the line in the middle of combat which is something our current Commander in Chief lacked the courage to do."
1 you must be a mind reader.
2- GWB's official record shows no AWOL- and if you ignore official records, Kerry loses bigtime.
3- I flew in many military aircraft, and watched them fly off and on the USS Enterprise- a few crashed- it takes courage to pilot those regardless.
4- 9/11, when Kerry and the other Demo leaders "could not think", Bush was in the air prior to getting air support- endangering his own life, as there were still commercial airliners flying. That and Cheney's staying in DC takes a certain amount of courage and quick unwavering thinking.
Check the number of presidents who had attempts on their life- including both Bushes. When you run for president, you are taking your life in your hands.
Neither I or Bush would claim Kerry lacks courage.
For you to say that you are either extremely naive' or a brainwashed Bush-hater.
I may still write in Nader.

1. No mind reader Ken. Kerry voluntarily chose to join up and requested to be sent to Nam where he was shot at and won mulitple medals. GW on the other hand got his Dad to get him in the guard despite a waiting list, and ole GW worked on Senate campaigns during the war. No mind reading. Documented.

As JR said, what 20 year old wouldn't go into the guard back then if he had the chance. Well, kerry didn't, and GW did just in time before his student deferrment ran out.


2. On GW's records. Well, if in fact all of GW's records have been released as he claims, then why no citations listed on any document despite him wearing medals in pictures from the time? Why if all his records are released have GW's military records been sealed by the Bush library? And as far as comparing to Kerry's accomplishments in actual combat compared to GW's miliatry record playing tennis with Will Blount in Alabama over some cocktails, please that's the funniest thing I read here yet. I appreciate the laugh though and realize you were kidding on that.

3. Yes, and ya know, it takes a lot of courage when people are actually shooting at you.

4. lol, lol....Thanks Ken I needed that. Bush was in the air gathering his thoughts. I would have thought his long pondering over the Goat story on 911 would have been enough, but yes, you're right, he went up into an airliner while the nation wondered what the hell was happening all day, and firefighters were losing thier lives, and then when the coast was clear ole GW came down from the skies to say I am in charge. What a leader.

I don't hate GW Ken, just hate his policies that cut VA hospitals, increase the deficit, underfund his own programs, ignore the problems of the environment, gives tax breaks to his rich buddies, wil lget tough by prosecuting older Americans trying to get cheaper vdrugs in Canada, but you're right Ken, GW likes to talk tough. I'm sure he did in the plane flying up on 911 while the rest of us on the ground wondered what was up all day.

[Tom]

"I don't hate GW Ken, just hate his policies that cut VA hospitals, increase the deficit, underfund his own programs, ignore the problems of the environment, gives tax breaks to his rich buddies, wil lget tough by prosecuting older Americans trying to get cheaper vdrugs in Canada, but you're right Ken, GW likes to talk tough. I'm sure he did in the plane flying up on 911 while the rest of us on the ground wondered what was up all day."

What you have had him doing? Standard operating procedure - the President his key staff are not allowed to be in harms way. They have to be kept safe to continue leading. It is that way with every head of state everywhere. And while he was taking off in Air Force One, Kerry, bu his own admission sat unable to think for 40 minutes. Good leadership material, eh? Can't think for 40 minutes is not exactly a resume builder, is it?

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by chickenhead
First...I said "these guys"

Second
"Thurlow's medal recommendation, for example, says he helped the PCF-3 crew "under constant enemy small arms fire." That recommendation is signed by George Elliott, another member of the anti-Kerry group. It lists as the only witness for the incident Robert Eugene Lambert, an enlisted man who was not on Kerry's boat who also won the Bronze Star that day."

So Elliot signed a piece of paper saying this is what happened...based on what Lambert witnessed....then Thurlow accepted an award for what that paper said happened.....now Elliot says he doesn't know what happened...Thurlow says it never happened.....and Lambert...well, who knows what he thinks...he was only THE WITNESS....but he surely said at one point that it happened.

That is a changing story, ElKabong. Now, you can I'm sure make some good arguments as to why their stories have changed.....but the FACT is the story has changed.



Chick, #1...Thurlow and Chenowith are 2 swiftboat commanders that were there along with Kerry (Droz is deceased, don't know about Pees) on 3/13 and have NOT changed their stories. Like I said before, if you can link comments where they did, I'd like to see it.

#2...As for Lambert, I linked you the svft webiste. They can answer your question.....Did you not register and ask?

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by ElKabong
Come on, sec. Waiting for one of you libs to name an individual and link quotes that backs up Kerry *first PH*. I'll bump it till you reply.

Sec,

You've posted on the board since my asking you to respond, yet you've sidestepped the question. Looks like your white flag on purple heart #1 (dec 2) is raised.

This is the one that might bother me most. He was there for mere days, yet he begs his CO for a purple heart, was refused....Then was booted from his first unit to another, then worked a diff chain of command for his 1rst and 3rd purple hearts.

That tells me he had "getting the hell outta here" on his mind when he went in. Now, he's running as a war hero.....He's a f'king disgrace, and proved it in his 1971 speech.

http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4929

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by chickenhead


Who is this guy Lambert that is listed as the witness on Thurlow's citation?


chickenhead,

I believe you could be mistaken. Could you link the Thurlow citation for me?

I looked at Kerry's BSM recommendation on-line. The eyewitness is Del Sandusky, who served on Kerry's boat. Lambert and Thurlow are listed as "others being recommended" in block 25.

Thx for bringing this to my attn, but I'd like to view Thurlow's citation, as you posted above.

[boxcar]

ElKabong wrote:

That tells me he had "getting the hell outta here" on his mind when he went in. Now, he's running as a war hero.....He's a f'king disgrace, and proved it in his 1971 speech.

He proably was depressed as all get out when he was ordered to Vietnam. Don't forget: This guy joined the Naval Reserve. The only dif between him and Bush (who joined the Air National Guard) is that Bush lucked out and didn't get called up to active duty. I believe, as you do, that Kerry, most especially after collecting his first PH medal so early during his active duty, was looking for every and any opportunity to collect but two more in order to get out.

Contrast Kerry's acceptance of the 3rd PH with many other Vets, such as Col. Ollie North, for example, who turned down the 3rd PH in order to continue to serve their country.

This guy Kerry is one kind of lowlife. The Libs really sunk low to get this candidate. He makes Clinton look like an angel.

Boxcar

[Derek2U]

It's a howl that the conservative repuplicans think BUSH has no
real Conservative philosophy just a hodge-podge of ideas that
"often contradict each other." NO SHIT ... Bush memorized only
sound bites ... "Supply side economics" -- "Evildoers" --- on & on
He has zero understanding of any concepts. In that regard, he
is just like most of you here --- Just Ralph & BoxCar & SQ**+
so many other PA infiltraitors--- and that lack of brainpower
shows up in your racing analysis ( as feeble as THAT is) ...
UMMM ... Pace Makes The Race --- like WowWee. Or, "Fellas,
I just Loved Modern Impact Values" like you morons would even
know what ratios & proportions are. (I can see BoxCar typing
into Google now." BTW, BC, I assume your brain transplant
worked out ok? I'm relieved that you don't type 6 pages of
drivel anymore. Just Ralph, who can't compose more than 20
words on his own, must of hired your ex copy & paste tutor.
GO OUT & VOTE YOU OLD BAG OF NON-SEQUITURS. Well, I know
the concept of working is alien to most of you repuplicans who
are on the Dole by I gotta go & get my cab.

[PaceAdvantage]

And now for the humor portion of our show.....Derek2U!!!!!!!

Seriously, you have to just laugh and MOVEon whenever he posts here.....

[chickenhead]

Originally posted by ElKabong
Did you not register and ask?

I am waiting for their admin to activate my account.....

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Derek2U
It's a howl that the conservative repuplicans think BUSH has no
real Conservative philosophy just a hodge-podge of ideas that
"often contradict each other." NO SHIT ... Bush memorized only
sound bites ... "Supply side economics" -- "Evildoers" --- on & on
He has zero understanding of any concepts. In that regard, he
is just like most of you here --- Just Ralph & BoxCar & SQ**+
so many other PA infiltraitors--- and that lack of brainpower
shows up in your racing analysis ( as feeble as THAT is) ...
UMMM ... Pace Makes The Race --- like WowWee. Or, "Fellas,
I just Loved Modern Impact Values" like you morons would even
know what ratios & proportions are. (I can see BoxCar typing
into Google now." BTW, BC, I assume your brain transplant
worked out ok? I'm relieved that you don't type 6 pages of
drivel anymore. Just Ralph, who can't compose more than 20
words on his own, must of hired your ex copy & paste tutor.
GO OUT & VOTE YOU OLD BAG OF NON-SEQUITURS. Well, I know
the concept of working is alien to most of you repuplicans who
are on the Dole by I gotta go & get my cab.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by ElKabong
Sec,

You've posted on the board since my asking you to respond, yet you've sidestepped the question. Looks like your white flag on purple heart #1 (dec 2) is raised.

This is the one that might bother me most. He was there for mere days, yet he begs his CO for a purple heart, was refused....Then was booted from his first unit to another, then worked a diff chain of command for his 1rst and 3rd purple hearts.

That tells me he had "getting the hell outta here" on his mind when he went in. Now, he's running as a war hero.....He's a f'king disgrace, and proved it in his 1971 speech.

http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4929

Elkabong, have many times have you been in combat. How many Sivler Stars and Bronze Stars have you won? How many of you crew would stand up for you? How many medals does it take for you to beleive a man has honored his country?

You prefer a man who never saw combat, whose CO in Alabama never remembers him being there, who lied about serving in the Air Force while running for office, who poses for pictures with medals and yet no record shows he ever was awarded them.

Personally, I don't care a lot about that crap, but I do care about Kerry's heroism which has been well documented whether you want to question his Purple Hearts for partisan purposes because you don't like what he reported to the Senate in 1971 after attending the Detroit wintersoldier meeting. You forget a couple of things. Kerry did not award himself those medals. His CO put him in for them. It was the CO's signature on those papers, not Kerry's. Kerry did not say he did those things in Vietnam (raping, etc...), but was reporting on what "vets" shared with him at the Winter soldier meeting. People like you prefer to to pretend that My Lai, Khe Sanh, and the Abu Gharib's of this world don't happen with american soldiers. I'm sure some German soldiers were ignorant about Auschwitz and Buchenwald. But horrible things happen in war, people do things they are later ashamed of. Vet after vet has documented Kerry's claims of those wintersoldier meeting atrocities but you focus on the severity of one of Kerry's Purple Heart wound.

And I advise you to actually read Kerry's 1971 Senate speech. I've posted it here before. His attacks were on the policies of Robert McNamara and Lyndon Johnson and the continuation of those policies under Richard Nixon. The concept of "creeping communism" , that we better fight tham in Vietnam rather than in California, never emerged ,and Kerry was correct. Additionally, while our soldiers were fighting North Vietnam, Nixon was making trade deals with Red China who was actively supporting the north vietnamese in the war effort.

Now that's what vets should be upset about. So if you want to contest Kerry's speech do so, it is a free counttry, but I take umbrage with your "follow the pack feeding frenzy on a true American hero".

I apologize for getting so emotional about this, but Kerry represents the first Presidential candidate I have ever been excited about it in my voting lifetime - including Bush Jr,. Clinton, Dole, Bush Sr., Dukakis, Gore, Reagan, Mondale, Carter, Ford, and McGovern. Of that group I voted for Dole in 96, Bush Sr in 88., Carter in 76 and 80, and McGovern in 72 so I've crossed party lines. I was excited about Robert Kennedy in 68, but when he got shot Humphrey never did it for me.

John Kerry served with distinction, and has a Senate record that reflects well on the times he voted. His work on veteran affairs throught the years in the Senate has been impeccable including is work on the MIA commission in Nam.

You simply don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

btw..as to Thurlow, read the Chris Matthews transcript to see how many times he changes his mind in one interview.

[lsbets]

Sec, since you are telling ElKabong that he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to military stuff are you telling me the same thing? My questions about Kerry's Purple Hearts are not partisan. They are based on information that I have heard and seen that seem to contradict Kerry's claim that he is a great warrior hero. The inconsitancies cast a lot of doubt on that. I think you are the one motivated by partisan politics, willing to slander anyone who does not bow down before the altar of King Kerry. It is really sad Sec, really sad.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by chickenhead
I am waiting for their admin to activate my account.....

chick,

Interesting you said that, I had the same problem 3 weeks ago when I registered. Took 2 days to clear if I recall. Later today I'll ask around and see what I can find & post back.

I did find Thurlow's BSM citation but not the recommendation form. The citation doesn't list a witness. Per Kerry's latest book, Kerry was the CTE (wrote the spot report) for both the 2/28 and 3/13 events. If Thurlow rec'd a BSM it was from Kerry's report which Thurlow, Chenowith have contradicted. (btw, Pees is still alive, the swift site lists him as kerry being "unfit", but I've never heard him interviewed). I'll keep looking for the recommendation, but if you have access to it, please link.....Much appreciated.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Elkabong, have many times have you been in combat. How many Sivler Stars and Bronze Stars have you won? How many of you crew would stand up for you? How many medals does it take for you to beleive a man has honored his country?

Personally, I don't care a lot about that crap, but I do care about Kerry's heroism which has been well documented

Sec,

As for your comments....I have a medal, ribbon and citation that denotes "heroism". If you wish to see the medal and all accompanying paperwork, you'll have to meet me face to face at my local track. **If you want any further details on the medal, you'll have to see me face to face at my local track.**

I don't consider myself a hero by any stretch. No one else should either. I know Mil documents can be inflated and twisted by either an officer with an agenda, or a CO that wants to make his org look good, or wishes to increase morale.

If you wish to meet me face to face, PM me. I've met people from this board at my local track and one can be present as well at our meeting.

As for Kerry, he's an opportunist and a disgrace to his country. It is obvious his first instinct was to get the hell out of Nam. That in itself isn't a disgrace....The fact he checked out ASAP and now is running as a "war hero" is disgusting.

As John O'Neill says "I dare you". I dare you to meet me. I dare you to prove I'm lying about the medal.....Ball's in your court, sec.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Secretariat


Personally, I don't care a lot about that crap, but I do care about Kerry's heroism which has been well documented whether you want to question his Purple Hearts for partisan purposes because you don't like what he reported to the Senate in 1971 after attending the Detroit wintersoldier meeting. You forget a couple of things. Kerry did not award himself those medals. His CO put him in for them. It was the CO's signature on those papers, not Kerry's. .


Sec,

You're incorrect. Kerry's first CO turned him down for PH #1. That is fact. Also, check his FITREP for the 12/2 time frame. It doesn't even mention being wounded on 12/2. His OIC of that date simply annotated that Kerry was dismissed to another unit. No distinction of service was recorded. He worked an entirely different chain of command to get that PH#1 he coveted.

as for his 2nd unit, and how Kerry was thought of....

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=3539

snippet--Thomas Wright was one of John F. Kerry's fellow Swift boat officers in Vietnam. Since Wright outranked Kerry, he was Kerry's sometime boat group Officer-in-Charge, so Wright had occasion to observe Kerry’s behavior and attitudes, and the circumstances surrounding his early departure from the war zone. The intervening years have not dimmed his memories......

It got to a point where Wright told his divisional commander he no longer wanted Kerry in his boat group, so he was re-assigned to another one. “I had an idea of his actions but didn’t have to be responsible for him.” Then Wright and like-minded boat officers took matters into their own hands. “When he got his third Purple Heart, three of us told him to leave. We knew how the system worked and we didn’t want him in Coastal Division 11. Kerry didn’t manipulate the system, we did.”

This is your self-proclaimed "war hero", Sec...

[kenwoodallpromos]

Kerry, by nature a debater, was the first among his friends to question the war. In June of 1966, he delivered a commencement speech casting doubt on U.S. policy: "What was an excess of isolationism has become an excess of interventionism. . . . We have not really lost the desire to serve. We question the very roots of what we are serving."

Though ambivalent, Kerry that fall entered Navy Officer Candidate School in Rhode Island. "We had the naive reasons college kids would have," said his friend Daniel Barbiero. "We thought, let's go and see what's really happening."

Kerry had read the military adventures of Teddy Roosevelt and Winston Churchill, and he fantasized about becoming a soldier-statesman, said Douglas Brinkley, author of "Tour of Duty," a Kerry biography. In high school, Kerry said in an interview, he had become interested in a career in politics: "Because that was where you made a difference -- whether you go to war, or don't go to war." His positions would be more credible, he reasoned at the time, if he spoke from experience.

____________________
"or don't go to war"; now he's knocking Bush for not going?
He only went to improve his political resume'.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Secretariat

Elkabong, have many times have you been in combat. How many Sivler Stars and Bronze Stars have you won? How many of you crew would stand up for you? How many medals does it take for you to beleive a man has honored his country?

"to the tune of blowing in the wind"
[sing along]How many times must you post, before you go away[/singalong]

Looks like you stepped in it here Sec.........ELKabong says he has the paper to back it up...........

Originally posted by Secretariat
You prefer a man who never saw combat, whose CO in Alabama never remembers him being there, who lied about serving in the Air Force while running for office, who poses for pictures with medals and yet no record shows he ever was awarded them.

I will say it again.......I bet you have read this someplace before:

The one with 4 years experience. The one who has core values and beliefs that he apparently follows no matter who he is speaking to. The one that knows he owns an SUV. The one that doesn't change his mind depending on what state he is standing in. The one who believes in Americans being taxed less. The one who has talked about eliminating the IRS. The one who can look in a camera and tell the terrorists that he will hunt them down, no matter who approves, and the terrorists know he means it. The one that the terrorists don't want elected. The one that has freed millions and put down a ruthless regime. The one that did not incite 250 men who served around him to form an organization to make sure he isn't elected President. The one who graduated 2nd in his class at the USAF fighter pilot school. The one who graduated with an MBA from Harvard (as opposed to the other one who couldn't get into Harvard). How about the one who knows where he was and who was President during Xmas 1968. How about the one who has admitted that he has faults and has never tried to mislead anybody about his past. He freely speaks about his foibles and past mistakes, Instead of blaming his mistakes on others. How about the guy who believes that life begins at conception, and realizes that since he believes that, then abortion must be wrong. Maybe we should vote for the man who can stand up to the U.N. and call them on their corruption and gamesmanship when it has a direct effect on our countries security and well being. Possibly we should vote for the man who recognized the true threats against our nation after 911 and instead of calling for investigations by Lard Ass Ex Politicians he put the country on a War Footing and went to work

Originally posted by Secretariat
I apologize for getting so emotional about this, but Kerry represents the first Presidential candidate I have ever been excited about it in my voting lifetime - including Bush Jr,. Clinton, Dole, Bush Sr., Dukakis, Gore, Reagan, Mondale, Carter, Ford, and McGovern.

You have got to be kidding? You are emotional because he is starting to look like a dunderhead and more importantly the polls are showing that the country is catching on to his idiocy....

Originally posted by Secretariat
You simply don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

somebody hand him a tissue...........hurry!

Oh yeah..........and just for fun.........

Hey Derek.......... do the letters F.O mean anything to you!

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by JustRalph
Originally posted by Secretariat

Elkabong, have many times have you been in combat. How many Sivler Stars and Bronze Stars have you won? How many of you crew would stand up for you? How many medals does it take for you to beleive a man has honored his country?

"to the tune of blowing in the wind"
[sing along]How many times must you post, before you go away[/singalong]

Looks like you stepped in it here Sec.........ELKabong says he has the paper to back it up...........

[/B]


Offer still stands. I dare him to meet me face to face at my local track. If I'm lying, he can come back here and post up. Haven't rec'd a PM nor a reply from Sec. He claims a thing or two I'd like to see him be man enough to do so, face to face.

[Tom]

"Hey Derek.......... do the letters F.O mean anything to you! "

Friend Overboard?

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by ElKabong
Sec,

As for your comments....I have a medal, ribbon and citation that denotes "heroism". If you wish to see the medal and all accompanying paperwork, you'll have to meet me face to face at my local track. **If you want any further details on the medal, you'll have to see me face to face at my local track.**

I don't consider myself a hero by any stretch. No one else should either. I know Mil documents can be inflated and twisted by either an officer with an agenda, or a CO that wants to make his org look good, or wishes to increase morale.

If you wish to meet me face to face, PM me. I've met people from this board at my local track and one can be present as well at our meeting.

As for Kerry, he's an opportunist and a disgrace to his country. It is obvious his first instinct was to get the hell out of Nam. That in itself isn't a disgrace....The fact he checked out ASAP and now is running as a "war hero" is disgusting.

As John O'Neill says "I dare you". I dare you to meet me. I dare you to prove I'm lying about the medal.....Ball's in your court, sec.

Bump, Sec.

[lsbets]

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/27619.htm

Now we have someone on Kerry's boat - not a part of the swift vets group, who says Kerry was never fired upon on Dec 2, and went out of his way to request the Purple Heart.

Kerry's new motto:

John Kerry, reporting for duty, until I figure out a way to get the heck out of here!

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by ElKabong
Sec,

As for your comments....I have a medal, ribbon and citation that denotes "heroism". If you wish to see the medal and all accompanying paperwork, you'll have to meet me face to face at my local track. **If you want any further details on the medal, you'll have to see me face to face at my local track.**

I don't consider myself a hero by any stretch. No one else should either. I know Mil documents can be inflated and twisted by either an officer with an agenda, or a CO that wants to make his org look good, or wishes to increase morale.

If you wish to meet me face to face, PM me. I've met people from this board at my local track and one can be present as well at our meeting.

As for Kerry, he's an opportunist and a disgrace to his country. It is obvious his first instinct was to get the hell out of Nam. That in itself isn't a disgrace....The fact he checked out ASAP and now is running as a "war hero" is disgusting.

As John O'Neill says "I dare you". I dare you to meet me. I dare you to prove I'm lying about the medal.....Ball's in your court, sec.

Well, I honor your service to your country as I hope you do mine. I don't undestand why you can't honor John Kerry's service who has won a Silver Star and Bronze Star. You want to nit pick hearsay reports from a bunch of disgruntled vets with varying accounts from 40 years ago on a couple of PH's. The bottom line is Kerry's CO signed off on those recommendations for medals. If they changed their mind because of something Kerry did AFTER the war then it certainly does not reflect on the action of the time. None of these CO's have said they "inflated or twisted with an agenda or to make their org look good" It is insulting to CO's to say that they would do so. I'm sure Isbets would not put people in for medals or ribbons "to make their org look good", and it is disingenious to make that assertion.

It is interesting to assert Kerry's first instinict was to get out of Nam, when Bush's first instinit was never to go over their in the first place. Yet, you have no problem supporting him and call Kerry a "disgrace" and an "opportunist" while our sitting President is playing tennis with Will Blount and working on Senate campaigns during his time in the National Guard, while Kerry is putting his life on the line in Nam. As far as I'm concerned ANY vet who wins a Silver Star and a Bronze Star is a "war hero" in my book. I could care less about your hearsay nitpicking on PH1 or PH3 or whatever the hell you're trying to do. If you want to spend your life trying to demonize every medal he has won, help yourself. It flies in the face of his crew who was there and witnessed it firsthand. Rassaman's account in particular is enough for me to classify Kerry a "War hero". Saving a man's life while being shot at classifies any soldier to me as a "War hero". I'm not interested in patriots who talk tough but never served like Clinton or our current Prez.

I'm not interested in your medals, or your types of medals. I'm sure you deserve them. I don't question them. I'm sure your CO was not trying to "raise the morale of your org" and that you did not got them under false pretensions.

As to meeting you. Why would I want to take time out of my schedule to meet you when I find your attacks on Kerry partisan, appalling, and representing the lowest level in attacking vets. I have enough time meeting friends.

You need to watch Kerry's actual 71 speech. He was not attacking vets in his speech, but reporting WHAT VETS ACTUALLY SAID at the wintersoldier meeting ,and questioning policy and leadership of the administrations in power at the time. One aspect of Kerry's Senate record which shows particular strength is his support in Veterans Affairs. If you don't beleive me about that, just ask John McCain.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Well, I honor your service to your country as I hope you do mine. I don't undestand why you can't honor John Kerry's service who has won a Silver Star and Bronze Star. You want to nit pick hearsay reports from a bunch of disgruntled vets with varying accounts from 40 years ago on a couple of PH's. The bottom line is Kerry's CO signed off on those recommendations for medals. If they changed their mind because of something Kerry did AFTER the war then it certainly does not reflect on the action of the time. None of these CO's have said they "inflated or twisted with an agenda or to make their org look good" It is insulting to CO's to say that they would do so. I'm sure Isbets would not put people in for medals or ribbons "to make their org look good", and it is disingenious to make that assertion.

It is interesting to assert Kerry's first instinict was to get out of Nam, when Bush's first instinit was never to go over their in the first place. Yet, you have no problem supporting him and call Kerry a "disgrace" and an "opportunist" while our sitting President is playing tennis with Will Blount and working on Senate campaigns during his time in the National Guard, while Kerry is putting his life on the line in Nam. As far as I'm concerned ANY vet who wins a Silver Star and a Bronze Star is a "war hero" in my book. I could care less about your hearsay nitpicking on PH1 or PH3 or whatever the hell you're trying to do. If you want to spend your life trying to demonize every medal he has won, help yourself. It flies in the face of his crew who was there and witnessed it firsthand. Rassaman's account in particular is enough for me to classify Kerry a "War hero". Saving a man's life while being shot at classifies any soldier to me as a "War hero". I'm not interested in patriots who talk tough but never served like Clinton or our current Prez.

I'm not interested in your medals, or your types of medals. I'm sure you deserve them. I don't question them. I'm sure your CO was not trying to "raise the morale of your org" and that you did not got them under false pretensions.

As to meeting you. Why would I want to take time out of my schedule to meet you when I find your attacks on Kerry partisan, appalling, and representing the lowest level in attacking vets. I have enough time meeting friends.

You need to watch Kerry's actual 71 speech. He was not attacking vets in his speech, but reporting WHAT VETS ACTUALLY SAID at the wintersoldier meeting ,and questioning policy and leadership of the administrations in power at the time. One aspect of Kerry's Senate record which shows particular strength is his support in Veterans Affairs. If you don't beleive me about that, just ask John McCain.


Sec,

No one is nitpicking on minutae, this is a man running for office on a stack of lies in a 4 month period of his life..I directly asked you to provide any individual that can back up his claim for his first PH. There has to be enemy fire to qualify for a PH, no one can confirm one took place on 12/2...You (and kerry) have simply not been able to come up with a witness for a firefight that day.

As damning as that is, as much so is the fact Kerry was turned down for a PH on that days event, and then tossed out of his unit...Thus, he did seek that PH #1 thru a different chain of command. Go read Kerry's fitreps on his site...He was tossed from Hibbard's unit about a week after his 12/2 self inflicted wound.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=3539

John Kerry is Unfit to Command. If he had nothing to hide, he'd sign the form 180 and win in a landslide. Instead, he's allowing koolaid drinking kerrybots like yourself to take his flak for him all the way to November.

You seem to think that no medal was ever given out without being deserved...Fact is, it happens. It's rare but it happens. If you don't believe me, ask none other than Max Cleland. He contends one of HIS is not deserved.

Too bad you don't have the guts to meet me face to face and repeat your comments earlier in this thread. The offer is still there.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by lsbets
http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/27619.htm

Now we have someone on Kerry's boat - not a part of the swift vets group, who says Kerry was never fired upon on Dec 2, and went out of his way to request the Purple Heart.

Kerry's new motto:

John Kerry, reporting for duty, until I figure out a way to get the heck out of here!

I wonder if they will go after this guy? He is a retired Admiral That is getting pretty high up the chain of command...........

[NoDayJob]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
And now for the humor portion of our show.....Derek2U!!!!!!!

Seriously, you have to just laugh and MOVEon whenever he posts here.....

:D Kinda reminds me of that anonymous quote about "dummies" and fuel shortages. :D

NDJ

[JustRalph]

This stuff is starting to get deeper......... Kerry started this mess and he is going to end up on the ass end of it........!!!

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips27.html

Plot thickens after checking records

August 27, 2004

BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB Advertisement

In the midst of the controversy between the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and Kerry campaign representatives about Kerry's service in Vietnam, new questions have arisen.

The Kerry campaign has repeatedly stated that the official naval records prove the truth of Kerry's assertions about his service.

But the official records on Kerry's Web site only add to the confusion. The DD214 form, an official Defense Department document summarizing Kerry's military career posted on johnkerry.com, includes a "Silver Star with combat V."

But according to a U.S. Navy spokesman, "Kerry's record is incorrect. The Navy has never issued a 'combat V' to anyone for a Silver Star."

Naval regulations do not allow for the use of a "combat V" for the Silver Star, the third-highest decoration the Navy awards. None of the other services has ever granted a Silver Star "combat V," either.

Fake claims not uncommon

B.G. Burkett, a Vietnam veteran himself, received the highest award the Army gives to a civilian, the Distinguished Civilian Service Award, for his book Stolen Valor. Burkett pored through thousands of military service records, uncovering phony claims of awards and fake claims of military service. "I've run across several claims for Silver Stars with combat V's, but they were all in fake records," he said.

Burkett recently filed a complaint that led last month to the sentencing of Navy Capt. Roger D. Edwards to 115 days in the brig for falsification of his records.

Kerry's Web site also lists two different citations for the Silver Star. One was issued by the commander in chief of the Pacific Command (CINCPAC), Adm. John Hyland. The other, issued by Secretary of the Navy John Lehman during the Reagan administration, contained some revisions and additional language. "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (j.g.) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself... ."

One award, three citations

But a third citation exists that appears to be the earliest. And it is not on the Kerry campaign Web site. It was issued by Vice Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam. This citation lacks the language in the Hyland citation or that added by the Lehman version, but includes another 170 words in a detailed description of Kerry's attack on a Viet Cong ambush, his killing of an enemy soldier carrying a loaded rocket launcher, as well as military equipment captured and a body count of dead enemy.

Maj. Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Vietnam veteran, calls the issuance of three citations for the same medal "bizarre." Milavic hosts Milinet, an Internet forum popular with the military community that is intended "to provide a forum in military/political affairs."

Normally in the case of a lost citation, Milavec points out, the awardee simply asked for a copy to be sent to him from his service personnel records office where it remains on file. "I have never heard of multi-citations from three different people for the same medal award," he said. Nor has Burkett: "It is even stranger to have three different descriptions of the awardee's conduct in the citations for the same award."

So far, there are also two varying citations for Kerry's Bronze Star, one by Zumwalt and the other by Lehman as secretary of the Navy, both posted on johnkerry.com.

Kerry's Web site also carries a DD215 form revising his DD214, issued March 12, 2001, which adds four bronze campaign stars to his Vietnam service medal. The campaign stars are issued for participation in any of the 17 Department of Defense named campaigns that extended from 1962 to the cease-fire in 1973.

However, according to the Navy spokesman, Kerry should only have two campaign stars: one for "Counteroffensive, Phase VI," and one for "Tet69, Counteroffensive."

94 pages of records unreleased?

Reporting by the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs points out that although the Kerry campaign insists that it has released Kerry's full military records, the Post was only able to get six pages of records under its Freedom of Information Act request out of the "at least a hundred pages" a Naval Personnel Office spokesman called the "full file."

What could that more than 100 pages contain? Questions have been raised about President Bush's drill attendance in the reserves, but Bush received his honorable discharge on schedule. Kerry, who should have been discharged from the Navy about the same time -- July 1, 1972 -- wasn't given the discharge he has on his campaign Web site until July 13, 1978. What delayed the discharge for six years? This raises serious questions about Kerry's performance while in the reserves that are far more potentially damaging than those raised against Bush.

Experts point out that even the official military records get screwed up. Milavic is trying to get mistakes in his own DD214 file corrected. In his opinion, "these entries are not prima facie evidence of lying or unethical behavior on the part of Kerry or anyone else with screwed-up DD214s."

Burkett, who has spent years working with the FBI, Department of Justice and all of the military services uncovering fraudulent files in the official records, is less charitable: "The multiple citations and variations in the official record are reason for suspicion in itself, even disregarding the current swift boat veterans' controversy

[ElKabong]

JR,

That's fricken awesome!!

On the way home tonite I heard Tony Snow say that Doug Brinkley (wrote Tour of Duty) has suspended giving interviews for the time being. Seems he's getting bitter about being duped by Kerry on the book's content, the xmas in Cambodia lie in particular. He's apparently off on a search mission of his own after defending the book's content.

Brinkley's integrity is at stake here, and Kerry just flushed him down the toilet. Let's hope Kerry doesn't get the chance to do the same with the country.

[Secretariat]

Elkie,

Go back and read my statment again. lol..You've apparently been watching too much GW puffing lately in his ads or speeches. Meeting you has nothing to do with guts, it has to do with whom I choose to spend my time with, and people who I beleive can engage in intelligent discussions rather than with ones who focus on demonization and trivia hearsay about Kerry's 1st PH 40 years ago. Personally, the thought of wasting time discussing this with you anymore is absurd on my part, and I should know better by know.

Actually, this SWV crap is already starting to sour many other vets, such as myself, as reported in the NY Times today.

"August 26, 2004
Wounds Opened Anew as Vietnam Resurfaces
By TIMOTHY EGAN

Many of them are bent and broken, grayer and wider. Some carry shrapnel from a step too far, an ambush replayed over and over. All carry memories. And now as the debate over service 35 years ago in a war that will not entirely fade roils the presidential campaign, Vietnam veterans wonder if they are doomed to take the arguments that divided a nation to their graves.

"It really upsets me, pitting one Vietnam veteran against another," said Frank Stephens, 55, of Granite Falls, Wash., who received a Purple Heart after being wounded during his Army tour in Vietnam in 1969. "I feel like the politicians are using us. They just won't let that war go."

For the more than 2.5 million veterans who served in Vietnam from 1965 through 1973, the clash over Senator John Kerry's service on a Navy Swift boat moves them into a new phase of their evolving place in the national consciousness. After being called both baby killers and heroes, they now feel like something else: political footballs.

"I thought Vietnam was over a few years ago, but apparently not," said Bruce Iverson, 58, an Air Force veteran of the war, who drives a bus in Portland, Me.

They profess to be brothers, and in veterans halls around the country the men who fought in Vietnam emphasized their common bonds and a view that most of the country may never understand them. But the advertisements by one group of veterans attacking the war record of Mr. Kerry, advertisements that are closely tied to supporters of President Bush, have reopened wounds about class and service and frayed some of the unifying threads.

"We didn't see any rich boys out there, not any at all, and if they were they had cushy jobs," said Ambrose D'Arpino, a 57-year-old former Air Force medic from Arizona who said Mr. Bush should not be criticizing Mr. Kerry because the president did not serve in Vietnam. Mr. D'Arpino was touring the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, which has carved on it the names of the 58,245 Americans who died in the war.

The Swift boat advertisements have infuriated Mr. D'Arpino, who said the candidates should focus on the issues of the day. It is a sentiment expressed by many veterans.

"Kerry earned medals,'' said Curtis Hamilton, an Army veteran from Maine who served in the mid-1980's. "Bush didn't. Who cares?"

....

None of the veterans interviewed said the challenge by the anti-Kerry group, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, had changed their minds on the election. But a handful said the attacks were making them rethink support for Mr. Bush.

"I'm a Republican - I voted for Bush last time - but I may go to Kerry this year," said Ron Ostrander, who served in the Army from 1966 to 1969 and lives in Vancouver, Wash. "To me, it's irrelevant whether Kerry's boat went into international waters or not, or how he got his medals. The fact that he served and did his duty - don't try to take that away from him."

Ralph Bozella, a 55-year-old veteran who lives in Longmont, Colo., said the more he followed the Swift boat controversy, the more he drifted into Mr. Kerry's camp.

"I feel like what they did to attack his record is an affront to all veterans," said Mr. Bozella, who was an infantry soldier in Vietnam in 1971. "When you honor one veteran, you honor all veterans, so when you disgrace one veteran, you disgrace all veterans, especially a Vietnam veteran."

A Navy veteran and Republican who voted for Mr. Bush in 2000, Mike Weiss of Portland, Me., said Mr. Bush should denounce the attack advertisements.

"It's very sad for me," said Mr. Weiss. "I'm not surprised, but I think Bush is playing a dangerous game, and I think he's turning a lot of people off, myself included."

.....

A retired Marine Corps veteran with two Purple Hearts, one for getting shot in the knee, the other for taking a bullet in the shoulder, Mr. Nichols would like to see the campaign focus on other issues.

"I truly think it's a big waste of the public's time," said Mr. Nichols. "They're trying to discredit him, taking our minds off the issues."

Mr. Stephens, the former Army specialist from Granite Falls who was wounded with shrapnel from a land mine, described himself as independent. He had never harbored any bitterness toward his fellow baby boomers who did not serve, but the Swift boat controversy has made him rethink his feelings toward people like Vice President Dick Cheney, who avoided the draft by college deferments, he said.

"The vice president said he had 'other priorities,' " said Mr. Stephens, gesturing toward his war wound. "Didn't we all."

Instead of this nonsense, try explaing why the Census Bureau says we have 1.3 million people more in poverty than when Bush took office, OR why 1.4 million people have lost their health care while Bush lost office. Or the first President since Hoover to have lost jobs on his watch. Or explain his massive deficits while he gives the largest tax cuts to the wealthiest while at the same time Greenspan says Medicare and Soc Security is going to be cut for the boomer generation, the same generation that fought in Nam.

No Elkie, I have no time for this silliness. I'm like "most" of those vets in todays times article. You're on ignore here after this.

[ElKabong]

Sec,

You've been on "inaccurate" mode long before I registered, and you've now waded into "cowardice" territory as well.

*You still can't verify Kerry's PH #1 was legit. Per his book, it's a lie.

*Kerry's xmas in cambodia is a lie. Again, his own book.

You have no leg to stand on.

My hometown has a program called "Vet to Vet". Younger Vets (but everyone's welcome to pitch in) go to VA hospitals to help cheer up older Vets that are in need of moral support. Never met a guy in there say "you know, that John Kerry is a stand up fella".....Have heard it many times about GWB.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Elkie,

Go back and read my statment again. lol..You've apparently been watching too much GW puffing lately in his ads or speeches. Meeting you has nothing to do with guts, it has to do with whom I choose to spend my time with, and people who I beleive can engage in intelligent discussions rather than with ones who focus on demonization and trivia hearsay about Kerry's 1st PH 40 years ago. Personally, the thought of wasting time discussing this with you anymore is absurd on my part, and I should know better by know.



Translated...ElKabong has busted a guitar over my head. I tried to insinuate he knows little of medals that are (usually) bestowed with honor, and even insulted him....He responded by offering a challenge that I backed down from. My name is Sec, and I'm a koolaid drinkin kerrybot that can't defend the lying candidate I have chosen to hitch my wagon to.

[boxcar]

Secretariat seriously but naievly asked:

Instead of this nonsense, try explaing why the Census Bureau says we have 1.3 million people more in poverty than when Bush took office

Er...fer beginners, how 'bout the fact that the U.S. is "under attack" by well over a million illegal aliens every year, and I doubt very many of those invaders are well-heeled when they get, most especially the South of Zeee Border types.

And just who should get the "largest tax cuts"? No doubt your twisted logic would dictate that those cuts should have gone go to the people who pay the least, or even better yet... to those who are so poor, they pay no taxes whatsoever. A lib's idea of "tax cuts" boils down to making welfare payments disguised as tax cuts.

Boxcar

[JustRalph]

They tried to give "child Tax Credits" to people who didn't have kids............. and it almost made it through...........

[JustRalph]

http://www.justralph.com/fish_in_a_barrel.jpg

that is some good photoshop work.......check out those bullets

[Tom]

This is good stuff. If the find out that Kerry did not deserve one of his Purple Hearts, and should not have been sent home, can they come back on him for being AWLO?
That would be hilarious-they keep accusing Bush of that, but no evidence, and then HE ends up in court or it, WITH evidence?
ROTFLMAO!
Sec, BTW, nice try at diversion by bringing up lose of jobs when confronted with facts. You are certainly in the running for Spinner of the Month over at DNC. ;)

[Buckeye]

Originally posted by Secretariat
"Kerry earned medals,'' said Curtis Hamilton, an Army veteran from Maine who served in the mid-1980's. "Bush didn't. Who cares?"

Not so sure about the earned part, but ok, let's talk about "Mr" Kerry's position on the issues. Look's even worse, and sorry I can't award him the Presidency based upon something we shouldn't even care about!

The mid 80s? That's relevant. :rolleyes:

[JustRalph]

Looks like the Kerry Girls Got the Boo at MTV....

They tried to Hush the boo's ........

http://www.justralph.com/hush.jpg

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by boxcar
Secretariat seriously but naievly asked:

Instead of this nonsense, try explaing why the Census Bureau says we have 1.3 million people more in poverty than when Bush took office

Er...fer beginners, how 'bout the fact that the U.S. is "under attack" by well over a million illegal aliens every year, and I doubt very many of those invaders are well-heeled when they get, most especially the South of Zeee Border types.

And just who should get the "largest tax cuts"? No doubt your twisted logic would dictate that those cuts should have gone go to the people who pay the least, or even better yet... to those who are so poor, they pay no taxes whatsoever. A lib's idea of "tax cuts" boils down to making welfare payments disguised as tax cuts.

Boxcar

Uh..Boxcar...your man Bush said let the illegals in...They're cheap labor here, and in fact let them participate...better read the latest from your leader.

As to the tax cut issue...the problem is they're not really tax cuts, but loans from a future generation. THat's one reason we have a deficit. For example, let's assume you owe 2,000 on your credit card, and you decide to take a cash advance for 300.00. wow, feels good, I got 300.00 to do with what I like. Guess what, NOT! Somebody has to pay that bill down the road, and if it ain't you, it's your children. WITH INTEREST!!

Fostering a loan from a future generation as a tax cut is reprehensible. Had we a surplus your argument would at least be worthy of a debate, but not when you're tacking on debt to make rich people richer.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Uh..Boxcar...your man Bush said let the illegals in...They're cheap labor here, and in fact let them participate...better read the latest from your leader.

No...NO...NOOOOOO...........!

Once again you lie like a rug.

The President has proposed a system where Illegals can enter the country only with the sponsorship of an employer here in the states. Any illegal that is here without that sponsorship would be "illegal" and treated as such. The President proposes a period of time for all Illegals to obtain sponsorship and then they can stay if they obtain sponsorship. There are also proposed time limits on these sponsorships. he defferred to congress to decide this time issue. The Dems have called it an Amnesty program.....which it is not! It also calls for more deportations than occur now. It enforces the law........unlike now.

[NoDayJob]

:D Let's dump both candidates and elect the "smartest woman in the world". Yeah, ya'll know who. Da Jr. Senator from New York with Hanoi Jane Fondle as her Secretary of State and Uncle Billie C. as V.P. :D

NDJ

[Tom]

Sec, your credit card example is just not the same thing. Try it this way.....you owe $2000 and make a payment of $100 dollars.
The minimum you owed was only $90 so they send you back $10.
Or let's say that Visa decide to reduce the minimum payment by 5%. therefore, if you paid $100, you get back $5. If you paid $40, you get back $2. Now you will cry that Ii got back $5 and you only got back $2 so the reduction only benifits the rich. That about right?:confused:


BTW, W already knows me and JR and Lefty.....we talk on the phone every day, so your sign would not have fooled him:D

[Equineer]

Tom,

Actually, Secretariat's the credit card analogy rings true.

On an annual basis, we have recently been paying only the interest charges on the national debt. Meanwhile, each annual budget deficit increases the total debt as well as the amount of interest we must pay in succeeding years.

As a businessman, you certainly know where this kind of financial management ultimately winds up... in bankruptcy proceedings.