Breeders' Cup in Mid December?Board set to discuss major event changes

[Andy Asaro]

http://www.drf.com/news/breeders-cup-board-set-discuss-major-event-changes

Excerpt:

“Any kind of ideas or thoughts that we are analyzing or discussing we don’t discuss in public until we have acted on them,” Fravel said. “We’re looking at millions of things all the time.”

According to officials, items up for discussion include potential host sites for the 2019 event and beyond; the possibility of adding a 14th race to the two-day event, restricted to 3-year-olds; the rescheduling of the full two-day event to mid-December; and the rescheduling of the Classic to a date one month later than the two-day event, a radical proposal that is being supported by board member Bobby Flay, the celebrity chef who is a horse owner and breeder.

Though an intermediary, Flay declined to comment on his proposal Wednesday, but three officials confirmed that Flay is leading the effort to promote the idea, despite misgivings from some Breeders’ Cup officials.

[GMB@BP]

I dont think moving to say December is the worst idea...it does get drowned by football in the current slot, heck the dates used to be set around ND football.

[cj]

That pretty much rules out everywhere but California, doesn't it?

[classhandicapper]

That pretty much rules out everywhere but California, doesn't it?

Maybe that's their idea. ;)

[Tom]

Sounds like pretty stupid ideas to me.
Flay been smoking his oregano?

Move the Classic to a whole different weekend?????

I love thinking outside the box, but this is thinking outside the skull!

[Saratoga_Mike]

Sounds like pretty stupid ideas to me.
Flay been smoking his oregano?

Move the Classic to a whole different weekend?????

I love thinking outside the box, but this is thinking outside the skull!

Perfectly said.

[jay68802]

That pretty much rules out everywhere but California, doesn't it?

or Gulfstream.

Oaklawn or Churchill as maybe's.

[GMB@BP]

or Gulfstream.

Oaklawn or Churchill as maybe's.

Thats what I would imagine, but Oaklawn has no turf course and I have no clue about the type of hotel rooms they have.

Churchill in December is just as much a gamble as Churchill in November, at least when I lived there.

[castaway01]

While having the Classic at a separate time makes no sense, moving the whole event a month later is actually a pretty good idea.

[Andy Asaro]

That pretty much rules out everywhere but California, doesn't it?

Think that's part of the idea.

[Quesmark]

With a BC in December,and a new "Derby" race for 3yo only;,wouldn't trainers have to keep horses in training longer,since the next season would be getting underway soon after the previous one ended.Less layoffs,more starts for the top level competition assuming they remain healthy + sound...

[Fager Fan]

The BC proves yet again that they can't stand to leave well enough alone.

They already created a new class of horse called The Who? BC Winner.

Once upon a time the winners of a BC race really accomplished something to be respected. Now 2nd tier horses win so regularly non-championship caliber BC races, we don't even remember who they are.

So not content with having screwed it up bad enough already, they're exploring how to completely total it.

Morons.

[Afleet]

Sounds like pretty stupid ideas to me.
Flay been smoking his oregano?

Move the Classic to a whole different weekend?????

I love thinking outside the box, but this is thinking outside the skull!

maybe they can run the BC classic on the Pegasus' undercard:lol:

[MonmouthParkJoe]

In terms of adding another race, it doesn't bother too much.

The moving of dates I am not sure about. If you split the classic to another day, I am sure they would have some supporting races moved under it to justify it. This would lead me to believe the two day format would be split.

If you ran one day of races on one weekend then the classic a couple others weeks later, it would all but eliminate me from ever attending unless it was local. It is costly enough with airfare and hotel but at least I get two days of racing. Doing the same thing for one day and then possibly a second is just too costly, add to that you run into the holiday season in December.

[Tom]

Hmmmm.......I see the reasoning behind it now.
Flay gets to cook TWO expensive meals!

[depalma113]

Here's a better idea for Breeders Cup Limited. They need to get creative with their wagering options.

My idea is the Pick 6 Plus wager. (Could also be done as a Pick 4, or Pick 3)

It combines fantasy and regular parimutuel wagering.

It would be a $4 minimum bet.

$2 would go into the fantasy pool that pays out to the top 20% of winners and $2 would go into the regular Pick 6 pool.

The player would choose a horse from each race and their final score would be based on the total dollar amount their horses won over those six races.

The player would only get one horse per race, but could enter numerous times to go deeper in individual races.

That ticket would also be live in the Pick 6.

One ticket, two ways to win!

No other sport can offer you a chance to win twice with the same entry!

The fantasy players would flock to it.

Go on Draftkings or Fanduel and you will see people have no problem paying $4 for an entry into a guaranteed prize pool and many would enter up to 500 times if it wasn't capped at 20 - 150 entries per contest.

[Tom]

Most of my horizontal bets already incorporate a good deal of fantasy.:p

[Robert Fischer]

add some chorizo and relish


Why the **** should Bobby Flay be used as an 'appeal to authority' here?

No disrespect to Flay, but he's known as a 'celebrity owner'. It's great that he associates his brand with racing. It does help the sport. He may well be some great thinker and an expert in strategic event planning and horse racing, but we've never had the privilege of seeing that side of him yet.

[depalma113]

Most of my horizontal bets already incorporate a good deal of fantasy.:p

See you are already ahead of the game.

[Thomas Roulston]

With a BC in December,and a new "Derby" race for 3yo only;,wouldn't trainers have to keep horses in training longer,since the next season would be getting underway soon after the previous one ended.Less layoffs,more starts for the top level competition assuming they remain healthy + sound...


And also an "Oaks" race for three-year-old fillies - plus the Fair Grounds and Lone Star Park would also be in the mix.

[jay68802]

The moving of the dates to December does one thing. It makes the host track owned by TSG. A point was made earlier that Oaklawn can't host it, and that leaves the only other possible tack Churchill Downs. And that turf course in December would be a nightmare. Not to mention that attendance would be affected by the weather. Looks like a move by TSG to get the Breeders Cup as one of their events.

[dilanesp]

I think it is nuts.

[Fager Fan]

The moving of the dates to December does one thing. It makes the host track owned by TSG. A point was made earlier that Oaklawn can't host it, and that leaves the only other possible tack Churchill Downs. And that turf course in December would be a nightmare. Not to mention that attendance would be affected by the weather. Looks like a move by TSG to get the Breeders Cup as one of their events.

Some of you must think Stronach lives under your bed.

While what you said is true, this stupid idea would have to go somewhere warm which rules out everywhere but CA basically, there's no indication that anyone but Flay is behind this idea.

[dilanesp]

The thing about the "go somewhere warm" theory is if you wanted to do that, you would simply "go somewhere warm". I think everyone here knows they have flirted with the idea of holding it at Santa Anita every year. They don't do that, but they do hold it at Santa Anita a lot, and one of the reasons is precisely that it is somewhere warm.

But if you move it to December-- guess what, Southern California, like everywhere else, is COLDER in December. Which would defeat the purpose of going somewhere warm.

My guess is that there are some horsemen who grumble about having to run their 3 year olds against older horses, and they are trying to respond to that. At any rate, the idea is nuts.

[Fager Fan]

The thing about the "go somewhere warm" theory is if you wanted to do that, you would simply "go somewhere warm". I think everyone here knows they have flirted with the idea of holding it at Santa Anita every year. They don't do that, but they do hold it at Santa Anita a lot, and one of the reasons is precisely that it is somewhere warm.

But if you move it to December-- guess what, Southern California, like everywhere else, is COLDER in December. Which would defeat the purpose of going somewhere warm.

My guess is that there are some horsemen who grumble about having to run their 3 year olds against older horses, and they are trying to respond to that. At any rate, the idea is nuts.

I'd bet my life savings that this hasn't happened. Trainers all know that 3yos run against older horses at that time of year. Always have and always shall be. Besides, they gave the reason. "Derby envy."

[Redboard]

I'd be OK with a 3yrold turf route, but not a dirt route. The BCC without 3yrolds would suck.

[Fager Fan]

I'd be OK with a 3yrold turf route, but not a dirt route. The BCC without 3yrolds would suck.

Are there really that many G1 turf 3yo routers to need that race? Any evidence that they can't hold their own against older? The open turf races are the only races to have multiple fillies, and 3yo fillies, to win.

[biggestal99]

Breeders cup derby in December? Why?

moving BC to december would make the current preps for the races moot

Laurel? would not mind it for a singleBC Is it big enough?

Allan (who has attend the last 17 straight BCs)

[rastajenk]

I think they should make that month-later race be for all the winners of the previous month's BC races....young and old, gender-mixing, turfs and dirts...at 7 1/2 furlongs on a turf course with a 1/4 mile dirt stretch...:faint:


Swing for the fences, BC. (It would make for some epic handicapping, wouldn't it?) :cool:

[Tom]

Let's put one BC race each Saturday night at Charlestown, that way everyone gets something. :rolleyes:

[Thomas Roulston]

No way in December, but I have never understood why there has never been a Breeders' Cup in Maryland, home of one of the three jewels of the Triple Crown.

Monmouth Park, yes. Lone Star Park, yes. But Laurel or Pimlico, no?

[olddaddy]

Mid December would get more euros to come but as others have said it could only be run at SA, DMR and GP.

[Denny]

I favor the opposite from what they are considering.

Too many horses fall by the wayside during the long campaigns they have.

Good 3-YO's start in Jan or Feb to prepare for the Derby and TC.
Hardly any of them are around by the end of the year.

The Fall meets, like Belmont, have lost much of their glory due to the BC.

If they want a BC DERBY, run it in late SEPTEMBER or the first week of OCTOBER. A horse could still run in the Classic against older in November.

[dilanesp]

No way in December, but I have never understood why there has never been a Breeders' Cup in Maryland, home of one of the three jewels of the Triple Crown.

Monmouth Park, yes. Lone Star Park, yes. But Laurel or Pimlico, no?

Pimlico is a non-starter (people are extremely uncomfortable at the Preakness) and Laurel needs more seats.

There have been at least some discussions about Laurel, but there are also weather issues of course.

[Fager Fan]

I favor the opposite from what they are considering.

Too many horses fall by the wayside during the long campaigns they have.

Good 3-YO's start in Jan or Feb to prepare for the Derby and TC.
Hardly any of them are around by the end of the year.

The Fall meets, like Belmont, have lost much of their glory due to the BC.

If they want a BC DERBY, run it in late SEPTEMBER or the first week of OCTOBER. A horse could still run in the Classic against older in November.

Sure, but that'd just weaken existing top races.

This is pure selfishness on the part of the BC. They don't care which tracks and races they screw with such inane ideas. The top 3yos don't need protection at that time of year, nor do they need more money added to their coffers. The BC doesn't need any more money either to pay their purses.

The BC more and more reminds me of a benefit program for the elite of the sport.

[fiznow]

Not good ideas imo. And honestly I liked the BC best when it was a one day event.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

2 Day Event at Santa Anita every year.

Just get it over with. :headbanger:

[dilanesp]

2 Day Event at Santa Anita every year.

Just get it over with. :headbanger:

That makes the most sense for deciding championships, because there would rarely be an off track.

But they make plenty of money when they go to Churchill (which is local to a lot of industry heavy hitters), and despite the fact they do poorly at Belmont, there's still an argument for going out there occasionally if NYRA ever decides they want to host it again, just because Belmont is such a great track and is a so much easier ship for the Europeans.

I honestly don't see the point of holding it anywhere other than those three tracks, however. (And if they did just hold it at SA, that would be fine.)

[carlonr]

With the amount of money that Del Mar made last year, Del mar will definitely be in any rotation. More money ultimately means larger purses. The interesting thing is that the next BC at Del Mar will make even more money. Last year they only used 3 of the temporary structures instead of 7 like they used at Keeneland. Also, Del Mar could have easily accommodated more people because (they now realize) the crowd is more of a "sit down" crowd instead of a "walk around crowd." Of course this is primarily due to a higher ticket price and most importantly, Del Mar / San Diego is a prime tourist location which means that more people come for 3-5 days instead of just Saturday. the Friday handle at Del Mar was very high, as was the attendance.

[Denny]

With all the money TSG is spending on Laurel, it's a strong possibility it will be there in the next few years.

Del Mar, if they could upgrade the track dimensions, has to be considered again. Wouldn't you think?
The betting was pretty strong.

What about Keeneland? It's the heart of the breeding industry.

The original concept was to move it around. Yes?

[Lemon Drop Husker]

That makes the most sense for deciding championships, because there would rarely be an off track.

But they make plenty of money when they go to Churchill (which is local to a lot of industry heavy hitters), and despite the fact they do poorly at Belmont, there's still an argument for going out there occasionally if NYRA ever decides they want to host it again, just because Belmont is such a great track and is a so much easier ship for the Europeans.

I honestly don't see the point of holding it anywhere other than those three tracks, however. (And if they did just hold it at SA, that would be fine.)

Not going this year.

Churchill sucks. It is cold. It is miserable, and they treat you like shit.

Belmont? I'm from Nebraska and there is no effing way I'll go to a Breeder's Cup at Belmont. While I do need to go to Belmont, it definitely won't be a Breeder's Cup in November.

[dilanesp]

With all the money TSG is spending on Laurel, it's a strong possibility it will be there in the next few years.

Del Mar, if they could upgrade the track dimensions, has to be considered again. Wouldn't you think?
The betting was pretty strong.

What about Keeneland? It's the heart of the breeding industry.

The original concept was to move it around. Yes?

1. I don't think we should assume that the Del Mar BC made money until they award another one there. The place was empty. There's good reason to be skeptical about the press releases. Bear in mind, the BC people know the actual numbers.

2. My guess is Keeneland was a one-off. They got a Triple Crown winner so definitely don't assume their numbers will be as good next time


3. No matter how many times people say this, the idea actually wasn't move it around a lot. It was to hold most of them in California's good weather and move it around occasionally. 3 of the first 4 were in California. They got away from that after management changed, nut that was the original idea.

[Afleet]

2 Day Event at Santa Anita every year.

Just get it over with. :headbanger:

agree unless they put a retractable roof over Churhill:D

[CincyHorseplayer]

Sunny locations in November is fine with me. With Gulfstream raping their turf course year round I say no to that venue though!

[SG4]

So the Breeders' Cup has decided to add a Juvenile Turf Sprint as an official event, and to boost the purse of the dirt sprint. I think whoever is on their board needs to be reevaluated because IMHO, their ideas continue to stink.

Part of the reason they added the turf sprint was because the juvenile turf races routinely oversubscribe. Well yeah, if you're putting up 7 figures for a mediocre race, you're probably going to get a lot of interest. Maybe the BC can sponsor some of those maiden claiming events at 7 1/2 furlongs that Gulfstream seems to use to conclude every day.

The BC people complain handle isn't rising fast enough & they wonder why, and their response is to water down races & introduce the most impossible ones to handicap. My general sense from handicappers is that turf sprints rank #1 in least favorite races to play, so let's start with that, add in a bunch of Europeans with indecipherable form & make it a field of 14 2yo's, just what everyone wants to deal with! They'll probably make it the wraparound race for pick 4's, 5's & 6's since this is clearly the race people are clamoring for. Also they say the distance will be 5 1/2 furlongs, which I believe essentially zero BC host tracks can use as their sprint distance.

Also adding $ to the Sprint purse? The race with the least amount of entrants the last 2 years, despite being the race that apparently all US horses are supposed to be bred to run in, that's the race that deserves the purse boost? You've got to be kidding me with these ideas, not to mention the earlier ones which they considered & shelved.

[Denny]

BC Limited hurt the Sprint when they added the Dirt Mile.
(the DM also hurts the Classic every year)

Boosting the purse might encourage a larger field. At least that's what they're probably thinking.

Having a FM Dirt Sprint hurts too. remember when great female sprinters used to run - and even beat the boys!

It's a shame what's become of one of the original BC races, the Sprint.

[GMB@BP]

BC Limited hurt the Sprint when they added the Dirt Mile.
(the DM also hurts the Classic every year)

Boosting the purse might encourage a larger field. At least that's what they're probably thinking.

Having a FM Dirt Sprint hurts too. remember when great female sprinters used to run - and even beat the boys!

It's a shame what's become of one of the original BC races, the Sprint.

Thats why I told a friend of mine when they went to the two day format the races really lost that lack of quality.

[cj]

Thats why I told a friend of mine when they went to the two day format the races really lost that lack of quality.

The BC is never giving up the second day, it is a cash cow and they charge you almost as much as they do for the Saturday.

It wasn't that long ago turf sprinters had no races at the BC. If you wanted to sprint, you tried dirt. Giving 2yo turf sprinters a BC race is ridiculous.

[Afleet]

So the Breeders' Cup has decided to add a Juvenile Turf Sprint as an official event, and to boost the purse of the dirt sprint. I think whoever is on their board needs to be reevaluated because IMHO, their ideas continue to stink.

Part of the reason they added the turf sprint was because the juvenile turf races routinely oversubscribe. Well yeah, if you're putting up 7 figures for a mediocre race, you're probably going to get a lot of interest. Maybe the BC can sponsor some of those maiden claiming events at 7 1/2 furlongs that Gulfstream seems to use to conclude every day.

The BC people complain handle isn't rising fast enough & they wonder why, and their response is to water down races & introduce the most impossible ones to handicap. My general sense from handicappers is that turf sprints rank #1 in least favorite races to play, so let's start with that, add in a bunch of Europeans with indecipherable form & make it a field of 14 2yo's, just what everyone wants to deal with! They'll probably make it the wraparound race for pick 4's, 5's & 6's since this is clearly the race people are clamoring for. Also they say the distance will be 5 1/2 furlongs, which I believe essentially zero BC host tracks can use as their sprint distance.

Also adding $ to the Sprint purse? The race with the least amount of entrants the last 2 years, despite being the race that apparently all US horses are supposed to be bred to run in, that's the race that deserves the purse boost? You've got to be kidding me with these ideas, not to mention the earlier ones which they considered & shelved.

juvenile turf sprint seems pathetic. I am sure they asked the fans and gamblers about this before being implemented:rolleyes: I agree w/you, I hate turf sprints

[Tom]

The idea behind the BC has been lost.
What' next, the BC Beaten Claimers? The BC Starter Allowance?

Horse used to race all year and then have a championship day.
Now, many just show up late in the year and run the big one.
Might as well rename the Classic the Breeder's Cup Cameo.

[Afleet]

The idea behind the BC has been lost.
What' next, the BC Beaten Claimers? The BC Starter Allowance?

Horse used to race all year and then have a championship day.
Now, many just show up late in the year and run the big one.
Might as well rename the Classic the Breeder's Cup Cameo.

BC starter allowance @6f dirt-I'm in-should be a great trifecta race

[GMB@BP]

The idea behind the BC has been lost.
What' next, the BC Beaten Claimers? The BC Starter Allowance?

Horse used to race all year and then have a championship day.
Now, many just show up late in the year and run the big one.
Might as well rename the Classic the Breeder's Cup Cameo.

dont give them any ideas................please :ThmbDown:

[dilanesp]

I know people here will laugh, but a BC starter allowance- a sort of claiming horse championship- would be a decent idea.

[Denny]

dilanesp,
We already have that - it's called the Claiming Crown.

[dilanesp]

dilanesp,
We already have that - it's called the Claiming Crown.

No, do it as part of the BC with a half mil puse.

[Fager Fan]

The BC is never giving up the second day, it is a cash cow and they charge you almost as much as they do for the Saturday.

It wasn't that long ago turf sprinters had no races at the BC. If you wanted to sprint, you tried dirt. Giving 2yo turf sprinters a BC race is ridiculous.

Their mistake wasn't adding a second day, but making them BC races. They should've made a card of high dollar purse races for all the non-champ divisions they wanted for Friday. Hell, add another day on Thursday too. But they really screwed up making them BC races, and splitting them up over the 2 days, and taking it off network TV.

The BC adds these races (and big purses) when all they had to do was keep the Original 7 (or even the 8th). They claim they're doing all this to earn more money. Earn more money FOR WHO? The elite owners and Breeders? Their own salaries? Who? Why do they need more money when they were making plenty to fund the First 8, even after increasing their purses? Why does no one ask this?

[dilanesp]

Their mistake wasn't adding a second day, but making them BC races. They should've made a card of high dollar purse races for all the non-champ divisions they wanted for Friday. Hell, add another day on Thursday too. But they really screwed up making them BC races, and splitting them up over the 2 days, and taking it off network TV.

The BC adds these races (and big purses) when all they had to do was keep the Original 7 (or even the 8th). They claim they're doing all this to earn more money. Earn more money FOR WHO? The elite owners and Breeders? Their own salaries? Who? Why do they need more money when they were making plenty to fund the First 8, even after increasing their purses? Why does no one ask this?

I think the network TV thing is key.

There is a reason major sports leagues try and get on network television. It means more exposure.

No doubt the second day is a cash cow. But what it cost them was wider promotion of the event. They thought ESPN would promote it, but ESPN has college football and didn't care.

[Denny]

I would put the main focus on a Pick 4 and have it on NBC.

Two Turf races - the Mile & the Turf

Two Dirt - the Sprint & the Classic.

All on the main network in a two hour broadcast.

Everything else goes on the sports network.

You could substitute something else for the Sprint if that race isn't as interesting.

[dilanesp]

I would put the main focus on a Pick 4 and have it on NBC.

Two Turf races - the Mile & the Turf

Two Dirt - the Sprint & the Classic.

All on the main network in a two hour broadcast.

Everything else goes on the sports network.

You could substitute something else for the Sprint if that race isn't as interesting.

I don't think you will ever see more than 1 race on the network again, because for that to happen the BC would have to offer the Distaff, and the Distaff anchors Friday.

[Tom]

No, do it as part of the BC with a half mil puse.


LOL!

6.0 Furlongs, Purse $500,000, non winners twice since July 3,
Claiming price $6250

[dilanesp]

LOL!

6.0 Furlongs, Purse $500,000, non winners twice since July 3,
Claiming price $6250

No a starter allowance.

[Valuist]

Has the Fair Grounds ever been in consideration for the BC?

[cj]

Has the Fair Grounds ever been in consideration for the BC?

I don't know if it was in the past, but it is too small now IMO.

[Tom]

Lots of parking at Finger Lakes.
And we are dropping sod soon! :headbanger:

[BIGTKLO]

New marketing campaign will be THUMBS UP!!!

[Afleet]

No a starter allowance.

for horses who have started for a claiming tag of 50k or less-would be a bang up field

[Afleet]

run all the turf races on Friday at SA and all the dirt races Saturday @OP-now that would be fun

[dilanesp]

for horses who have started for a claiming tag of 50k or less-would be a bang up field

Exactly.

[Tom]

New marketing campaign will be THUMBS UP!!!


:pound::pound::pound: Sharp post!!! :ThmbUp:

You know, we do have the best beef on weck in all of racing!
We wouldn't need Bobby Flay.
Just sayin'

[fiznow]

Why not take the Breeders Cup to Europe for one time? I would love that. :headbanger:

[cj]

Why not take the Breeders Cup to Europe for one time? I would love that. :headbanger:

No dirt, for one. Not real dirt anyway. The fake stuff didn't go over very well here. Lasix, for two.

[dilanesp]

No dirt, for one. Not real dirt anyway. The fake stuff didn't go over very well here. Lasix, for two.

Television, for three. Weather, for four. And actually those two reasons are much bigger.

[rastajenk]

run all the turf races on Friday at SA and all the dirt races Saturday @OP-now that would be funOnce upon a time (probably back when the BC was more actively moving to different venues, and when Ohio's 7/7 still existed), I used to entertain the fanciful notion that Turfway and River Downs could co-host one; River's turf and Turfless' lights, among other things, could have been worthwhile. :p