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View Full Version : DISGRACE AT GULFSTREAM RACE 7


parlay
01-17-2018, 03:55 PM
In any other country they would through all these jocks in jail! Not saying the horse wasn't possible, but he should at least have to run to prove it. These Ortiz guys are importing the same shit that ruined NY. Just disgusting how the stewards can allow this.

cj
01-17-2018, 04:12 PM
Come on, a good rant needs detail!

JustRalph
01-17-2018, 06:46 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ae-Qj7P-xY

tophatmert
01-17-2018, 06:59 PM
Fill me in here was someone supposed to go with the winner early?

parlay
01-17-2018, 08:27 PM
i understand that he projected to be speed, but not lone speed in those kind of fractions. It is incumbent on the other riders to ride a race within reasonable pace parameters. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THIS HORSE WINNING THE RACE, I HAVE A BIG PROBLEM WITH THE MANNER IN WHICH THE RACE WAS RUN. I f this race was run in Hong Kong they would have had all the jocks who had mounts capable of pressing the pace in for a explanation. You must ride your horse in a reasonable facsimile to what he is projected to do, or have a very good explanation for why you didn't. I see these types of races all to often in NY and it STINKS. "We probably can't beat ortiz so we will just saunter around till the 16th pole". Greattt! Please send out the twitter that your all going to watch so we can bet another track. SORRY, THIS HAS STOPPED ME FROM BETTING NYRA AND NOW IT IS INFECTING GP. I'LL STICK TO OAKLAWN THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!

Afleet
01-17-2018, 08:37 PM
I like the 3/4 fraction of 1:16.34-were these $10k MCL's?:puke:

Tom
01-17-2018, 08:53 PM
You can't call it racin' if the ponies aren't pacin'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol0dPJdzm1M

jocko699
01-17-2018, 08:55 PM
I like the 3/4 fraction of 1:16.34-were these $10k MCL's?:puke:

Must have been a tremendous headwind :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Andy Asaro
01-17-2018, 08:57 PM
Jockeys need to be questioned similar to what happens overseas when a really odd race shape develops.

parlay
01-17-2018, 09:00 PM
I like the 3/4 fraction of 1:16.34-were these $10k MCL's?:puke:

Maybe CJ can comment on how slow that number is, i know it may not be a slow as it looks on its face. But how is the :2: 3 back at the 1/4 and 4 at the 1/2 in those fractions? if he challenges in reasonable fractions and gets put away i sleep okay, but if your going to accede you should have to send out a twitter.

magwell
01-17-2018, 09:01 PM
In any other country they would through all these jocks in jail! Not saying the horse wasn't possible, but he should at least have to run to prove it. These Ortiz guys are importing the same shit that ruined NY. Just disgusting how the stewards can allow this.Are you saying the jocks are all stupid
for not pressing a faster pace
or they were in on the outcome ?

Andy Asaro
01-17-2018, 09:03 PM
Are you saying the jocks are all stupid
for not pressing a faster pace
or they were in on the outcome ?

I am very suspicious of the pace in a lot of races. Are two bothers gonna pressure each other? Are two jocks with the same agents gonna duel? It's the easiest way to manipulate a race IMO

RunForTheRoses
01-17-2018, 09:11 PM
http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/instant.cgi?date=2018-01-17&track=GP&country=USA&race=7&type=inc&print=on

ABRAHAM made the lead unchallenged, ambled along through easy fractions, settled into the stretch well in command on the rail, and remained clear under a drive

RunForTheRoses
01-17-2018, 09:19 PM
The horse (in second try) really took to turf and trainer switch (and of course the pace helped). There wasn't too much speed but you would have thought the 2 4and 6 would have shown some. Sinatra is not really a close up horse but he sorta was. Can CJ post the TFUS, at least the pace view?

Via Whobet:

http://www.brisnet.com/php/bw_pdf_viewer.php?track=GP&race=7&param1=1360&param2=560&param3=1002946

oughtoh
01-17-2018, 09:21 PM
You also don't know what the trainers of those other horses told the jockeys

parlay
01-17-2018, 09:21 PM
http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/instant.cgi?date=2018-01-17&track=GP&country=USA&race=7&type=inc&print=on

ABRAHAM made the lead unchallenged, ambled along through easy fractions, settled into the stretch well in command on the rail, and remained clear under a drive
Lets ask Jaramillo to justify that ride. Sorry, but my suspicion is that you dont screw up Ortiz, if your a good boy they will give you something later. You might not be outright fixing races but you are sure not riding them legit! But who cares what the degenerates think anyways:headbanger:

Robert Fischer
01-17-2018, 09:27 PM
Hard for me to tell whether it was just an aggressive jock who went and controlled a paceless race, or anything more. Irad being on the outside of Javier also helped his cause after the break, where he could deny Javier any ideas about going to the lead.

Was a paceless race, and a bad field (a bum like the 2 was 6/5 chalk??)

Who knows...

At the very least, it was a timid/boneheaded race from Emisael Jaramillo
and the other jockeys.


I do know that I've dialed down my post-position bias plays @ 7.5f lately. Most of the jocks fail to adapt situational tactics and just pray for 'decent position' early, thus allowing outside horses to comfortably establish forward inside position half of the time...

RunForTheRoses
01-17-2018, 09:31 PM
I don't think it was that big of a deal, there was not much speed in race, if anything give irad (and that good young rider on the 7) credit for moving early. Jose's horse was not a speed horse.

If there's any conspiracy it would be this:

D'CRAZINESS bumped with MAJOR KEY early, appeared somewhat unsettled under restraint on the rail through the stretch the first time, remained under a firm hold through the backstretch run, continued to save ground and offered no response.

RunForTheRoses
01-17-2018, 09:34 PM
Lets ask Jaramillo to justify that ride. Sorry, but my suspicion is that you dont screw up Ortiz, if your a good boy they will give you something later. You might not be outright fixing races but you are sure not riding them legit! But who cares what the degenerates think anyways:headbanger:

Out of the gate, after the minor bump, the 2 does look like he would have lead...and then not so much.

parlay
01-17-2018, 09:36 PM
I don't think it was that big of a deal, there was not much speed in race, if anything give irad (and that good young rider on the 7) credit for moving early. Jose's horse was not a speed horse.

If there's any conspiracy it would be this:

D'CRAZINESS bumped with MAJOR KEY early, appeared somewhat unsettled under restraint on the rail through the stretch the first time, remained under a firm hold through the backstretch run, continued to save ground and offered no response.

i agree. Jaramillo is the culprit. He dictated the non pace. How often did you see this scenario in NY last year. "Give me this one and i'll return the favour later". UNACCEPTABLE

davew
01-17-2018, 09:37 PM
In any other country they would through all these jocks in jail! Not saying the horse wasn't possible, but he should at least have to run to prove it. These Ortiz guys are importing the same shit that ruined NY. Just disgusting how the stewards can allow this.

Superior jockey strategy and skills should be punished?

parlay
01-17-2018, 09:45 PM
Superior jockey strategy and skills should be punished?

No. That is not what happened here. I DESCRIBED THE RIDE AS "acceded". I would like an explanation from Jaramillo how this might be a winning strategy. It is grossly unfair to the betting public when races are pretended to be run.

Fager Fan
01-17-2018, 10:11 PM
Maybe CJ can comment on how slow that number is, i know it may not be a slow as it looks on its face. But how is the :2: 3 back at the 1/4 and 4 at the 1/2 in those fractions? if he challenges in reasonable fractions and gets put away i sleep okay, but if your going to accede you should have to send out a twitter.

The way the horses were moving, I'd wager that it was as slow as the time indicated.

Tom
01-17-2018, 10:32 PM
You also don't know what the trainers of those other horses told the jockeys

Or who they bet on.

Fred Mertz
01-17-2018, 10:36 PM
I watched the replay on mute one time.

I focused on the jockeys not the slow pace. The jockey on the lead :5: rode high (highest) until the stretch. The others started sitting down after the half mile pole.

I don't see the outrage, but I'm just a novice.

JustRalph
01-17-2018, 10:43 PM
Or who they bet on.

Hmmmmmm..........

davew
01-17-2018, 10:44 PM
I watched the replay on mute one time.

I focused on the jockeys not the slow pace. The jockey on the lead :5: rode high (highest) until the stretch. The others started sitting down after the half mile pole.

I don't see the outrage, but I'm just a novice.

Some feel the :2: should have been on the lead and easy winner.

theiman
01-17-2018, 10:55 PM
The jocks must have learned the pace factor from Eddie Cobb. If you ever went to Freehold back in the 70's you will know what I mean.:pout:

Fred Mertz
01-17-2018, 11:03 PM
Some feel the :2: should have been on the lead and easy winner.

I watched it again, focusing on :2: horse and jock. If I got choked my first half of the race...well, judge for yourself.

Okay, parlay, I see your point of view.

cj
01-17-2018, 11:21 PM
Based on the speed of the track the pace figures weren't all that slow to be honest, but certainly favored the leader. Before applying the track variant, the figures look like this:

1/2 103
3/4 98
Fin 111

The numbers were probably be a few points lower with track variant added, but the relationship between them won't change.

The Pace Projector had the 2 about 1.5 lengths in front of the 5 after the opening half. The charts indicates the 2 had some trouble at the start which may have gifted the 5 the lead, but I don't buy that looking at the replay. It looks like the 2 was consciously rated. Why that would be the case I have no idea. Trainer instruction?

jocko699
01-17-2018, 11:36 PM
Okay,

1) The Ortiz brothers combined to win over 51 million in purses last year.
2) They ride some of the best horses in the world for great trainers and owners.
3) They concocted a scheme to steal a race worth $29,000?
4) The other jockeys were some how involved in a race with mutual WPS of $198,000?

What is the upside of this?

I saw the replay and I saw horses that had nothing today and a jockey go to the lead and control the pace.

arw629
01-17-2018, 11:47 PM
In any other country they would through all these jocks in jail! Not saying the horse wasn't possible, but he should at least have to run to prove it. These Ortiz guys are importing the same shit that ruined NY. Just disgusting how the stewards can allow this.

I didnít have the winner in this race today but I didnít see anything wrong with how it was run.

JustRalph
01-18-2018, 12:39 AM
I didnít have the winner in this race today but I didnít see anything wrong with how it was run.

I didnít see a race

I saw a parade

jay68802
01-18-2018, 02:42 AM
Lets look, the 4 possible pace horses in the race were the :2:,:4:,:5:, and :7:. All of these horses do their best running when 0-2 lengths of the lead.

The :4: has not been near the lead since May, but in the past has ran well with pace figures of 91,99,98, and 92.

The :5: has ran well with pace figures of 94,95,98,103, and 108,

The :2: has ran well with pace figures of 88,94,83,86, and 87.

The :7: has ran well with pace figures of 88,91,90,100, and 80.

I see the leaders as the :4: and 5 with the :2: and :7: right behind them chasing a pace that is out of their comfort zone. when the :4: can't go with the :5: how the race ended up looks right.

parlay
01-18-2018, 08:04 AM
In any other country they would through all these jocks in jail! Not saying the horse wasn't possible, but he should at least have to run to prove it. These Ortiz guys are importing the same shit that ruined NY. Just disgusting how the stewards can allow this.

I am not complaining about the result. There was a lot to like about this horse. i am commenting on the manner in which the race was pretended. THE 2 SAT!!
We can guess at why, but this same scenario was prevalent in NY last year. Races were the leader got away with uncontested leads that were unpredictable. I am not disparaging the abilities of the Ortiz brothers or the tactics employed in this race. But i am suggesting that it is beneficial for guys like Jaramillo to not jeopardize the trip for future considerations.

Inner Dirt
01-18-2018, 09:33 AM
I am very suspicious of the pace in a lot of races. Are two bothers gonna pressure each other? Are two jocks with the same agents gonna duel? It's the easiest way to manipulate a race IMO

I thought an agent can only represent one jockey at a time.

WINMANWIN
01-18-2018, 09:37 AM
i understand that he projected to be speed, but not lone speed in those kind of fractions. It is incumbent on the other riders to ride a race within reasonable pace parameters. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THIS HORSE WINNING THE RACE, I HAVE A BIG PROBLEM WITH THE MANNER IN WHICH THE RACE WAS RUN. I f this race was run in Hong Kong they would have had all the jocks who had mounts capable of pressing the pace in for a explanation. You must ride your horse in a reasonable facsimile to what he is projected to do, or have a very good explanation for why you didn't. I see these types of races all to often in NY and it STINKS. "We probably can't beat ortiz so we will just saunter around till the 16th pole". Greattt! Please send out the twitter that your all going to watch so we can bet another track. SORRY, THIS HAS STOPPED ME FROM BETTING NYRA AND NOW IT IS INFECTING GP. I'LL STICK TO OAKLAWN THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!

Polygraph all of them. Smaller tracks are Worse. :popcorn::sleeping::bang::mad:

WINMANWIN
01-18-2018, 09:40 AM
I thought an agent can only represent one jockey at a time.
:popcorn::lol:
They changed rule in new york and probably in other states also. :jump:

Dave Schwartz
01-18-2018, 10:19 AM
Lets ask Jaramillo to justify that ride. Sorry, but my suspicion is that you dont screw up Ortiz, if your a good boy they will give you something later. You might not be outright fixing races but you are sure not riding them legit! But who cares what the degenerates think anyways:headbanger:

It was either a boat race or it wasn't. There really isn't any in between.

Robert Fischer
01-18-2018, 10:49 AM
quote/justralph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ae-Qj7P-xY


Late money was really sharp here.
Watching the video and referring to the chart...
FAV:2: DROPS from 2-1 to 1.3-1(6/5 video)
leader:5: DROPS from 7-1 to 6.2-1
long shot:7: DROPS from 22-1 to 18.4-1

Not incriminating, but how often do you see both the Favorite and the 6th-Longest-Shot-on-the-board both drop in odds in the last flash? Usually when the favorite gets hammered, the 6th longest stays the same if not INCREASES.

I get that the :3: was an unbettable 'toss' (and that some of the 3's small amount of money went over to the 7).
What makes it even more weird is that as they loaded the eventual 7th-longest-shot was :4: (15-1).
So the :4: went from 15-1 to 20.6-1 , while the :7: went from 22-1 to 18.4-1...

The odds movement on the :8: and :9: was logical, however. The odds for 8 and 9 also did not correlate to their break / turn-position.

Not incriminating, but enough to raise an eyebrow and tip a cap to the sharp late money.




I don't think it was that big of a deal, there was not much speed in race, if anything give irad (and that good young rider on the 7) credit for moving early. Jose's horse was not a speed horse.

If there's any conspiracy it would be this:

D'CRAZINESS bumped with MAJOR KEY early, appeared somewhat unsettled under restraint on the rail through the stretch the first time, remained under a firm hold through the backstretch run, continued to save ground and offered no response.

The young rider has another shot to hit the board today.

onefast99
01-18-2018, 10:51 AM
I like the 3/4 fraction of 1:16.34-were these $10k MCL's?:puke:

The bottom MCL's is 12,500 was that what you meant?

cj
01-18-2018, 10:54 AM
The bottom MCL's is 12,500 was that what you meant?

I'm sure he just threw a random number out there, I doubt he cared about the actual bottom level when trying to make a point.

TheOracle
01-18-2018, 11:03 AM
Lets ask Jaramillo to justify that ride. Sorry, but my suspicion is that you dont screw up Ortiz, if your a good boy they will give you something later. You might not be outright fixing races but you are sure not riding them legit! But who cares what the degenerates think anyways:headbanger:

Let's see what Jaramillo does today at Gulfstream he has these mounts:

Race 2
#3 Gran Lucky Girl

Race 4
#2 Extravagant Kid

Race 5
#1 We Take Checks

Race 7
#11 Hey Howie

onefast99
01-18-2018, 11:04 AM
Let's see what Jaramillo does today at Gulfstream he has these mounts:

Race 2
#3 Gran Lucky Girl

Race 4
#2 Extravagant Kid

Race 5
#1 We Take Checks

Race 7
#11 Hey Howie

One rider I would never use as he runs the jocks room....

parlay
01-18-2018, 02:13 PM
Let's see what Jaramillo does today at Gulfstream he has these mounts:

Race 2
#3 Gran Lucky Girl

Race 4
#2 Extravagant Kid

Race 5
#1 We Take Checks

Race 7
#11 Hey Howie


WOW, LOOK HOW AGGRESSIVE HE CAN RIDE WHEN HE WANTS TO.

Tom
01-18-2018, 02:49 PM
What is the upside of this?

Practice?

cato
01-18-2018, 03:28 PM
The 5 projected to a lead and I'm just mad I didn't bet him. I did not think he would last and or he would get more pressure than he got....and after watchuing the race, I was reminded that we are betting on da hosses and not a robotic representation of what people think should happen in the race based on a few past performances. I also find it challenging to predict with such certainty as the original poster as to what jockeys intended to do vs what the horse would let them do and/or what the trainers wanted the jockeys to do and whether (a) the jockeys heard, understood, agreed with them and then tried to do it (but the horse had other ideas), or (b) the jock did not hear, understand or agree with the advice (and the horse had other ideas anyway).



Cheers, Frank

parlay
01-18-2018, 04:07 PM
The 5 projected to a lead and I'm just mad I didn't bet him. I did not think he would last and or he would get more pressure than he got....and after watchuing the race, I was reminded that we are betting on da hosses and not a robotic representation of what people think should happen in the race based on a few past performances. I also find it challenging to predict with such certainty as the original poster as to what jockeys intended to do vs what the horse would let them do and/or what the trainers wanted the jockeys to do and whether (a) the jockeys heard, understood, agreed with them and then tried to do it (but the horse had other ideas), or (b) the jock did not hear, understand or agree with the advice (and the horse had other ideas anyway).



Cheers, Frank

I think it was the hammerlock he put on the :2: for the first 3 furlongs that had me going HMMMMMMMMMM

TheOracle
01-18-2018, 04:17 PM
Lets ask Jaramillo to justify that ride. Sorry, but my suspicion is that you dont screw up Ortiz, if your a good boy they will give you something later. You might not be outright fixing races but you are sure not riding them legit! But who cares what the degenerates think anyways


Let's see what Jaramillo does today at Gulfstream he has these mounts:

Race 2
#3 Gran Lucky Girl

Race 4
#2 Extravagant Kid

Race 5
#1 We Take Checks

Race 7
#11 Hey Howie


WOW, LOOK HOW AGGRESSIVE HE CAN RIDE WHEN HE WANTS TO.


Hey Parlay,

Thanks for noticing Jaramillo if you played him across the board today he made you $73.60 per $2 win place and show wager due to the $54 number he drove home!!!

I guess he was a good boy yesterday and they gave him something today as you pointed out in your comment

Congratulations to those who saw the play and were able to make a profit!!!

Robert Fischer
01-18-2018, 06:00 PM
...
I do know that I've dialed down my post-position bias plays @ 7.5f lately. Most of the jocks fail to adapt situational tactics and just pray for 'decent position' early, thus allowing outside horses to comfortably establish forward inside position half of the time...


Not sure what happened in the 10th today with the :1:.

The horse may have been empty, but there was no apparent urgency from the gate to secure forward position.

An early pace horse ended up turning down the gift of an inside draw, and instead was in a stalking/closing position.

And this was the jock of the :7: in yesterday's race who we were praising for following Irad.

Maybe the horse was just empty from the gate?

Maybe the trainer mis-read the last two efforts and was scared to go early?

Who knows... /frustrating to think along