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View Full Version : True pioneer in th game Mark Cramer-Great read.


Diagoras
01-09-2018, 06:32 AM
https://t.co/4FkkDSFJIR

Robert Fischer
01-09-2018, 09:36 AM
Thanks that was a good read

Arapola
01-09-2018, 12:21 PM
A "Renaissance Man" indeed!

biggestal99
01-09-2018, 02:00 PM
https://t.co/4FkkDSFJIR

Excellent article.

I am an advocate of Cramer's method about TB Cycles.

Thanks.

Allan

Tom
01-09-2018, 03:41 PM
Good article.
I met Mark one Saturday night in Baltimore, ~1992-93?
At a Sartin seminar that had just wrapped up and we all headed, of course, toward the nearest liquor. Mark is quite the character!
He carried a stack of copies of races with notes marked all over them in his brief case, and was always ready to pull one out and talk about an idea he was working on. He was obsessed with finding the automatic bet.

I got a lot of ideas from him, some that I still use to this day - ie, my betting 1 unit Win and three units place at 9-2 of more, and his "proven loser" horse.

I wish he was writing more.

Racey
01-09-2018, 08:18 PM
is good anybody recommend any other of his books

thaskalos
01-09-2018, 08:45 PM
I've read Cramer's books, and his writing style appeals to me...but I could never implement his handicapping methods in my own play. His methods appear too "systematic" to me...as if his primary concern is to come up with angle-plays which win for the long-term. That notion conflicts with my own personal handicapping "philosophy".

mikekk
01-10-2018, 02:16 AM
I've read Cramer's books, and his writing style appeals to me...but I could never implement his handicapping methods in my own play. His methods appear too "systematic" to me...as if his primary concern is to come up with angle-plays which win for the long-term. That notion conflicts with my own personal handicapping "philosophy".

This is exactly right, and is the theme that runs thru all of Cramer's writing. Tom made the same point above, in his "automatic bet" sentence.

I followed quite a few of Cramer's methods back in the late 90's. Pre-simulcasting days, so the information I saved was specific to one track. I found it very useful, and definitely profitable for the 5 years I collated and used it. My question would be, is it still worthwhile? Times have changed, and so much information is now sitting on the internet and there for anyone willing to look for it.

I can see why he spends his time/efforts in Europe now. Handicapping strikes me as still very much an art over there.

Mike

Diagoras
01-10-2018, 06:27 AM
is good anybody recommend any other of his books

Value Handicapping.

This book helps you with the art of creating your line,passing on underlays,spotting overlays.

Tom
01-10-2018, 09:21 AM
Although Cramer has "rules" to everything, I think he needs to it that way to test, but I just use the spirit of the angles, no the rules. I may call one horse a proven loser and another in the same race and same record a contender, depending on other factors. Kinky Handicapping II is a grat one - lots of really good angles in that one.

Harmonicaslim
01-10-2018, 10:07 AM
This is exactly right, and is the theme that runs thru all of Cramer's writing. Tom made the same point above, in his "automatic bet" sentence.

I followed quite a few of Cramer's methods back in the late 90's. Pre-simulcasting days, so the information I saved was specific to one track. I found it very useful, and definitely profitable for the 5 years I collated and used it. My question would be, is it still worthwhile? Times have changed, and so much information is now sitting on the internet and there for anyone willing to look for it.

I can see why he spends his time/efforts in Europe now. Handicapping strikes me as still very much an art over there.

Mike

Always been a Cramer fan. I used his tote angle as described in "Kinky Handicapping" in the 90s with good, and occasionally great, success. Finished 1996 in the black for the first, and only, time in my life as a result. And, sadly, it just doesn't seem as effective in today's racing world.

andicap
01-10-2018, 11:16 AM
The late Art Kaufman, who is mentioned near the bottom of the article, was a regular on the old Prodigy racing board (and perhaps here, I dont recall). He published popular turf pedigree ratings under the name Lee Tomlinson. PA, myself and a few others from Prodigy enjoyed a nice day at the races with Art back in the early '90s. A very, very nice man.

mountainman
01-10-2018, 11:38 AM
I've read some Cramer, and my best takeaway was his concise criteria for a successful angle. As best I can remember it was: 1) Must show reliable profit...2) must contradict conventional doctrine...3) must have roots in some form of logic.

Simple, but so eloquent and instructive.

AndyC
01-10-2018, 06:15 PM
The late Art Kaufman, who is mentioned near the bottom of the article, was a regular on the old Prodigy racing board (and perhaps here, I dont recall). He published popular turf pedigree ratings under the name Lee Tomlinson. PA, myself and a few others from Prodigy enjoyed a nice day at the races with Art back in the early '90s. A very, very nice man.

I remember Art from the old Prodigy board. His booklets served me well for a number of years.

proximity
01-10-2018, 06:37 PM
frank cotolo still haunts pen sometimes (or maybe it's me that does?) and has a book called PONY PLAYER that's a good read about the California era covered in the article. great racing book IF you can find a copy. :)

castaway01
01-15-2018, 06:50 PM
is good anybody recommend any other of his books

The novel "Scared Money" incorporates some of the same stories mentioned in the article with other Cramer handicapping while telling a decent story. It's somewhat dated but still worth a read.

classhandicapper
01-16-2018, 11:33 AM
Although Cramer has "rules" to everything, I think he needs it that way to test

I agree. I'm not sure how else you can test effectively.

I try to put together rules that mimic my thinking the best I can and test that. The hope of course is that adding in some subjective analysis later will improve the results. But to be honest I'm not sure it always does unless you test every single insight you think you have. My rules spit out a horse over the weekend as a prime play. I didn't play it because there was a lot of speed in the race and this horse looked like he wanted the lead. He won and I didn't collect the $12.40 So who knows for sure if my analysis in this case added value or not.

Denny
01-16-2018, 05:16 PM
Thanks for starting this thread.

Enjoyed reading the article.

Just borrowed a copy of "Value Handicapping" to read.

cnollfan
01-16-2018, 06:21 PM
Mark Cramer was a very influential handicapper for me. Thoroughbred Cycles changed the way I look at a horse's form for good.

reckless
01-17-2018, 09:37 AM
Mark Cramer was a very influential handicapper for me. Thoroughbred Cycles changed the way I look at a horse's form for good.

I always thought Thoroughbred Cycles was the best book on handicapping ever written.

GMB@BP
01-17-2018, 09:51 AM
I always thought Thoroughbred Cycles was the best book on handicapping ever written.

I have all his books and in general thought they were well down with many interesting ideas.

I used to be a bigger proponet of form cycles, also having read stuff from handicappers like Cary Fotias (sp).

Then I started using pace figures and realized what was hard to explain and often attributed to going off form or "bouncing" was in fact easily explained with the pace context.

A recent example was Majestic Heat last weekend, who ran a very weak 4th I believe and never made a closing move but the pace was so abhorrently slow that only horses of great magnitude would have won the race with that setup.

Waquoit
01-17-2018, 09:34 PM
Kinky Handicapping II is a grat one - lots of really good angles in that one.


Is there a Kinky Handicapping II or is that a typo.? I have the original.

ARAZI91
01-19-2018, 07:10 AM
Is there a Kinky Handicapping II or is that a typo.? I have the original.

Think it was Kinkier Handicapping and quite hard to obtain last time i looked.

ARAZI91
01-19-2018, 07:16 AM
I love the Guy - Im in UK and Nick Mordin's Betting For A Living turned a lot of us onto US Handicapping texts - concepts at the time were totally alien to most but through time we adapted. Cramer's been a big influence on how i look at the game and most of my angles are approached via "Spirit Of Cramer"
Still some good stuff on here -
http://markcramercx.blogspot.co.uk/2009_10_24_archive.html

GMB@BP
01-19-2018, 12:50 PM
Didnt realize I had so many of his books, just looked at the shelf

Thoroughbred Cycles
The Odds Must be Crazy
Scared Money
Value Handicapping

thaskalos
01-19-2018, 12:52 PM
Didnt realize I had so many of his books, just looked at the shelf

Thoroughbred Cycles
The Odds Must be Crazy
Scared Money
Value Handicapping

The Odds Must Be Crazy is a Len Ragozin book.

GMB@BP
01-19-2018, 01:27 PM
The Odds Must Be Crazy is a Len Ragozin book.

thanks, ur right

SPEEDHORSE
01-28-2018, 09:38 PM
The book title is ODDS ON YOUR SIDE. I really enjoyed reading this book.

GMB@BP
01-29-2018, 11:54 AM
The book title is ODDS ON YOUR SIDE. I really enjoyed reading this book.

yea, let me see if I can find it.

I am now re-reading his Thoro Cycles book. I want to see how outdated some of the concepts are with the "Sheets" style training that takes place.

I can tell you he does write with style, the preface in that book should be read once a year as a handicapping reminder.