Bit Coin futures

[lamboguy]

when you go long coffee, cotton, cattle, gold, silver or any other commodity that has futures trading, you always have the option to take delivery of that item. with Bit Coin, there is no physical product. how does one take delivery on something that does not exist?

[Ocala Mike]

I guess the same way one takes delivery when they play S&P Futures. In other words, there is no delivery option - you are just making a bet.

[davew]

cash settled

http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/equity-index/us-index/bitcoin_contract_specifications.html

[BaffertsWig]

Futures killed the volatility of BTC. It's been stuck between mid 12s-high 13s for quite some time. Staying long, no more trading for me.

[Fager Fan]

Is there anywhere I can invest by betting this fake product bursts into the thin air that it is?

[BaffertsWig]

Is there anywhere I can invest by betting this fake product bursts into the thin air that it is?

Cryptocurrencies are the monies of the future, they are here to stay. It doesn't surprise me old people don't understand and/or can't grasp the concept.

[Fager Fan]

Cryptocurrencies are the monies of the future, they are here to stay. It doesn't surprise me old people don't understand and/or can't grasp the concept.

First I'm now at nearly as old as you think and spent years writing computer code, so put I sock in it. Second, only fools are trading in imaginary currency. I assume you are one.

[BaffertsWig]

I'd say when Amazon plans on accepting several cryptocurrencies as payment for goods they should no longer be dismissed as "imaginary."

This "fool" has a ROI of nearly 900% for 2017 in cryptos, how'd your investments do?

[Clocker]

Bitcoin is like Tinker Bell. You gotta believe!:p

[Zaf]

It is very hard to cash out any significant amount now. Can you imagine when
the house of cards fall :confused:

Z

[davew]

Cryptocurrencies are the monies of the future, they are here to stay. It doesn't surprise me old people don't understand and/or can't grasp the concept.

So what if they are here to stay? What does that have to do with their value and if they are going to get more expensive or less?

[BaffertsWig]

So what if they are here to stay? What does that have to do with their value and if they are going to get more expensive or less?

I was replying to Fager's comments.

[Jeff P]

First I'm now at nearly as old as you think and spent years writing computer code, so put I sock in it. Second, only fools are trading in imaginary currency. I assume you are one.

Suppose someone had the foresight to purchase (say) $50.00 worth of Bitcoin back in Feb, 2011 or March, 2011...

Fyi, back then a single Bitcoin was selling for approximately one US Dollar.

Right now as I type this, that $50.00 investment would be worth more than $600k.

Would you still characterize that person as a fool?


-jp

.

[PaceAdvantage]

I guess the same way one takes delivery when they play S&P Futures. In other words, there is no delivery option - you are just making a bet.Bingo

[Fager Fan]

Suppose someone had the foresight to purchase (say) $50.00 worth of Bitcoin back in Feb, 2011 or March, 2011...

Fyi, back then a single Bitcoin was selling for approximately one US Dollar.

Right now as I type this, that $50.00 investment would be worth more than $600k.

Would you still characterize that person as a fool?


-jp

.

Yes. Just because there happens to be other fools don't make you less of a fool.

[davew]

Suppose someone had the foresight to purchase (say) $50.00 worth of Bitcoin back in Feb, 2011 or March, 2011...

Fyi, back then a single Bitcoin was selling for approximately one US Dollar.

Right now as I type this, that $50.00 investment would be worth more than $600k.

Would you still characterize that person as a fool?


-jp

.

only if they did not cash some out - and kept it all until it is worth less than $50 again

[AndyC]

Suppose someone had the foresight to purchase (say) $50.00 worth of Bitcoin back in Feb, 2011 or March, 2011...

Fyi, back then a single Bitcoin was selling for approximately one US Dollar.

Right now as I type this, that $50.00 investment would be worth more than $600k.

Would you still characterize that person as a fool?


-jp

.

It might look like an investment now but it looked more like a "bet" back in 2011. Now it looks like a casino where a player needs to step up from the $5 table to the $10,000 table. There are a lot of rich fools in the world along with a lot of broke geniuses.

[Fager Fan]

I'd say when Amazon plans on accepting several cryptocurrencies as payment for goods they should no longer be dismissed as "imaginary."

This "fool" has a ROI of nearly 900% for 2017 in cryptos, how'd your investments do?

Amazon is NOT planning to accept crytocurrencies.

I hope that means you've taken your $900 and gotten out. Not that I feel for all of those who will be left holding the bag.

At least I'm in good company:


Should you buy into bitcoin? Here's what top investors say
Kathleen Elkins | @kathleen_elk
11:24 AM ET Thu, 7 Dec 2017


Bitcoin crossed the $16,000 mark Thursday morning, less than two days after topping $12,000 for the first time. The digital currency now has a market value of more than $272 billion.

Some of the biggest names on Wall Street are embracing the digital currency, including Fundstrat's Tom Lee and value investor Bill Miller, who is running a fund with nearly a third of its assets in bitcoin.

One Dutch family even bet all they have on bitcoin.

Should you be buying into bitcoin too? Here's what top investors have to say:

Jamie Dimon: Bitcoin is a 'fraud'

The cryptocurrency "is a fraud," JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon said at the Delivering Alpha conference presented by CNBC and Institutional Investor. "It's just not a real thing, eventually it will be closed."

He added, at a separate conference organized by Barclay, "It's worse than tulip bulbs. It won't end well."

Michael Novogratz: Cryptocurrencies like bitcoin are 'going to be the biggest bubble of our lifetimes'

"I think this [crypto] is going to be the biggest bubble of our lifetimes by a long shot," the former Fortress hedge fund manager said at a CoinDesk bitcoin conference.

"To be fair, this is a bubble and there's a lot of fraud mixed in. We look at tons of projects. And some get funded, and they literally look like Ponzi's. There's a lot of froth and fraud in something that's exciting as this."

Novogratz's remarks came right after he gave an aggressive projection for bitcoin: It "could be at $40,000 at the end of 2018. It easily could," he said on CNBC's "Fast Money." And he saw big things for other cryptocurrencies too: "Ethereum, which I think just touched $500 or is getting close, could be triple where it is as well."

Mark Cuban: Only invest if you're prepared to lose your money

According to billionaire Mark Cuban, it's OK to invest up to 10 percent of your savings in high-risk investments, including bitcoin and ethereum. You've just "got to pretend you've already lost your money," he told Vanity Fair, adding that it's like throwing "the Hail Mary."

Jim Cramer: Bitcoin is like 'Monopoly money'

Bitcoin is a pure gamble, said CNBC's Jim Cramer on "Squawk Box": "It's kind of like Monopoly money. Obviously, there's people who use it. If you ever say anything bad about it, there's like this bitcoin mafia that comes after you. But it is an oddity that has nothing to do with us" as investors.

"It's just pure gambling at this point," the market expert continued. "I mean, if you want to gamble, go to Vegas. Vegas is fabulous."

Howard Marks: It's a 'pyramid scheme'

"In my view, digital currencies are nothing but an unfounded fad (or perhaps even a pyramid scheme), based on a willingness to ascribe value to something that has little or none beyond what people will pay for it," the respected value investor and co-chairman of Oaktree Capital wrote in an investor letter.

Tony Robbins: Investing in bitcoin is 'like going to Vegas'

The self-made millionaire and best-selling author of "Money: Master the Game" isn't completely sold on the idea yet either.

"I think is very iffy," Robbins told CNBC's "Fast Money. "I don't have a clue. I look at that as it's like going to Vegas." In other words, only bet what you can afford to lose.

Robbins himself directs a certain amount of money to risky ventures and doesn't rely on them to work out. For those investments, his mentality is, "I know it is just for fun I'm investing, I know I could lose, this is Vegas."

[B]Jack Bogle: Avoid it 'like the plague'

Legendary investor and index fund revolutionary Jack Bogle isn't impressed. He weighed in on the subject at a Council on Foreign Relations event.

"Avoid bitcoin like the plague. Did I make myself clear?" said the Vanguard founder in response to an audience question.

"Bitcoin has no underlying rate of return," Bogle continued. "You know bonds have an interest coupon, stocks have earnings and dividends. There is nothing to support bitcoin except the hope that you will sell it to someone for more than you paid for it."

[PaceAdvantage]

Some of the people on that list of yours are complete idiots...successful, yes, but idiots nonetheless.

[Fager Fan]

Some of the people on that list of yours are complete idiots...successful, yes, but idiots nonetheless.

Who? Jim Cramer is a little annoying to listen to, but he's never struck me as an idiot.

[PaceAdvantage]

Who? Jim Cramer is a little annoying to listen to, but he's never struck me as an idiot.That's definitely one of them.

[Jeff P]

only if they did not cash some out - and kept it all until it is worth less than $50 again

I would agree with you. (Especially with something like Bitcoin.)


-jp

.

[Jeff P]

It might look like an investment now but it looked more like a "bet" back in 2011. Now it looks like a casino where a player needs to step up from the $5 table to the $10,000 table. There are a lot of rich fools in the world along with a lot of broke geniuses.

That raises a really interesting fundamental question... at least a question that's really interesting to me:

What's the difference between an "investment" and a "bet?"

(Is there really a difference?)




-jp

.

[Fager Fan]

That raises a really interesting fundamental question... at least a question that's really interesting to me:

What's the difference between an "investment" and a "bet?"

(Is there really a difference?)




-jp

.

To me an investment is something that already has value or worth, and you invest in it either to hold or hopefully increase in value. Rarely would the investment lose all its value. I suppose their are exceptions to this, like investing in new businesses.

A bet to me is usually an all or nothing proposition. A bet to me is also something that can lose all its value in an extremely short time period (as compared to my exception above, which would take months or years likely to lose).

I'd sure never call gambling in Vegas or on the ponies "investing."

[davew]

That raises a really interesting fundamental question... at least a question that's really interesting to me:

What's the difference between an "investment" and a "bet?"

(Is there really a difference?)




-jp

.

If you are going to 'bet' on the futures market, the maintenance margin now is over $30K / contract

[AndyC]

That raises a really interesting fundamental question... at least a question that's really interesting to me:

What's the difference between an "investment" and a "bet?"

(Is there really a difference?)




-jp

.

Good question. Probably no difference. In my view, betting involves far more risk than investing. The term "investing" is used when someone wants to make their use of money sound sensible and "betting" is used when someone wants to make the use of money sound irrational.

[Fager Fan]

Good question. Probably no difference. In my view, betting involves far more risk than investing. The term "investing" is used when someone wants to make their use of money sound sensible and "betting" is used when someone wants to make the use of money sound irrational.

I don't think those who are admitting reality such as the lottery, poker, and slot machines being gambling is doing so to make anyone sound irrational. It is what it is.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's all gambling. Some bets (investments) are sounder (ie. LESS RISKY) than others, but it's all gambling, because there are no guaranteed returns. There are close to guaranteed returns, like a savings account, but you see what those are paying these days. Hardly worth it.

PLENTY of people have lost EVERYTHING investing...there have been TONS of S&P pit traders (when that existed) who have lost it all. There have been TONS of day traders that have lost it all.

There have been people who "invested" in places like Enron who have lost it all...even pension funds and the like, who were supposedly "safe."

MONEY IS AT RISK in all of these situations...that's gambling.

If there were no risk, there would be no return.

[thaskalos]

It's all gambling. Some bets (investments) are sounder (ie. LESS RISKY) than others, but it's all gambling, because there are no guaranteed returns. There are close to guaranteed returns, like a savings account, but you see what those are paying these days. Hardly worth it.

PLENTY of people have lost EVERYTHING investing...there have been TONS of S&P pit traders (when that existed) who have lost it all. There have been TONS of day traders that have lost it all.

There have been people who "invested" in places like Enron who have lost it all...even pension funds and the like, who were supposedly "safe."

MONEY IS AT RISK in all of these situations...that's gambling.

If there were no risk, there would be no return.
:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

A year after I bought my Chicago-area home...I lost the entire 25% down payment that I had submitted, because of the subsequent explosion of the "housing bubble". I kept thinking about how much more fun it would have been to blow that money in Las Vegas.

[Fager Fan]

It's all gambling. Some bets (investments) are sounder (ie. LESS RISKY) than others, but it's all gambling, because there are no guaranteed returns. There are close to guaranteed returns, like a savings account, but you see what those are paying these days. Hardly worth it.

PLENTY of people have lost EVERYTHING investing...there have been TONS of S&P pit traders (when that existed) who have lost it all. There have been TONS of day traders that have lost it all.

There have been people who "invested" in places like Enron who have lost it all...even pension funds and the like, who were supposedly "safe."

MONEY IS AT RISK in all of these situations...that's gambling.

If there were no risk, there would be no return.

Yes and no. One can say that putting their money in anything but the mattress means they're gambling, but they could even lose the money in the mattress if they're robbed.

I guess we're "gambling" every day with our lives as we drive a car or board a plane or cross a street or eat a cheeseburger.

So we can take it all to the extreme, but we generally know what we're talking about when we talk about investing and gambling and the differences between the two.

[_______]

It's all gambling. Some bets (investments) are sounder (ie. LESS RISKY) than others, but it's all gambling, because there are no guaranteed returns. There are close to guaranteed returns, like a savings account, but you see what those are paying these days. Hardly worth it.

PLENTY of people have lost EVERYTHING investing...there have been TONS of S&P pit traders (when that existed) who have lost it all. There have been TONS of day traders that have lost it all.

There have been people who "invested" in places like Enron who have lost it all...even pension funds and the like, who were supposedly "safe."

MONEY IS AT RISK in all of these situations...that's gambling.

If there were no risk, there would be no return.

The difference is that gambling in a casino involves cycling your money through a game that is designed to hold some percentage of that wager for the house. Even if it’s a fraction of 1%, over the long run you should lose money.

Investing involves owning a limited liability interest in a (hopefully) money making enterprise. You can certainly screw that up any number of ways but looking at historical returns on equities, it’s much, much harder for someone who buys and holds through a market cycle to lose money than it is for anyone to win in a casino.

If you want to compare investing to gambling, at least recognize the distinction that it’s gambling in a form that has a positive return for those who play built in. It takes some serious effort to lose everything in the market. The minimal effort of diversifying across just a few holdings mitigates that possibility to near zero.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes and no. One can say that putting their money in anything but the mattress means they're gambling, but they could even lose the money in the mattress if they're robbed.

I guess we're "gambling" every day with our lives as we drive a car or board a plane or cross a street or eat a cheeseburger.

So we can take it all to the extreme, but we generally know what we're talking about when we talk about investing and gambling and the differences between the two.


So would you not call betting on horses gambling? We call playing a slot machine gambling, or blackjack gambling...both games you are guaranteed to lose. Horse racing though, you CAN win at, since you are playing against other players and not the house's built-in edge.

So should we call horse racing betting - investing? To distinguish between horses and craps etc.?

These are the types of lines you're trying to draw.

Anything with risk should be called gambling...:lol:

Life IS a gamble...

[_______]

So would you not call betting on horses gambling? We call playing a slot machine gambling, or blackjack gambling...both games you are guaranteed to lose. Horse racing though, you CAN win at, since you are playing against other players and not the house's built-in edge.

So should we call horse racing betting - investing? To distinguish between horses and craps etc.?

These are the types of lines you're trying to draw.

Anything with risk should be called gambling...:lol:

Life IS a gamble...

Horse Racing you are playing against other players AND the hold. You can be an extraordinarily talented and disciplined player and still not beat the hold.

Investing you can be an extraordinarily untalented investor and so long as you are disciplined, it’s still difficult to lose money.

[Tape Reader]

An investment is a risk in producing a product.

A gamble is a product that is created to produce a gamble.

I checked today and so far, no options on /XBT, to my disappointment.

[AndyC]

:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

A year after I bought my Chicago-area home...I lost the entire 25% down payment that I had submitted, because of the subsequent explosion of the "housing bubble". I kept thinking about how much more fun it would have been to blow that money in Las Vegas.

With most real estate you only "lost" if you sold. People who continued their ownership generally have seen in increase in their investment.

[_______]

With most real estate you only "lost" if you sold. People who continued their ownership generally have seen in increase in their investment.

Not unlike those who held equities and didn’t sell when the world was supposed to be ending.

[davew]

:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

A year after I bought my Chicago-area home...I lost the entire 25% down payment that I had submitted, because of the subsequent explosion of the "housing bubble". I kept thinking about how much more fun it would have been to blow that money in Las Vegas.

Did you miss payments and get foreclosed and kicked to the street, losing all previous payment because you were upside down on the property? If not, how did you lose? In most places, a lower appraisal means lower property taxes - Chicago may be an exception.

[thaskalos]

Did you miss payments and get foreclosed and kicked to the street, losing all previous payment because you were upside down on the property? If not, how did you lose? In most places, a lower appraisal means lower property taxes - Chicago may be an exception.

I lost because my house's value quickly decreased by the exact same 25% that I put as a down-payment...thereby making it seem as if I gave no down-payment at all. It was as if I flushed that 25% down the toilet. And, in the last 12 years, my property taxes for my Chicago-area home have gone UP by 53%...while my house's value now stands at only 79% of what I paid for it. Of course, as AndyC stated, I may still see the house's value climb to its purchase price...if I live long enough. But still...I wish I had taken that 25% down-payment to Las Vegas instead...

[thaskalos]

With most real estate you only "lost" if you sold. People who continued their ownership generally have seen in increase in their investment.

It's odds-on that my home "investment" will never become profitable during my lifetime. However...there is a better-than-average chance that I might recoup my losses by investing in Bitcoin and Ripple.

[biggestal99]

Cryptocurrencies are the monies of the future, they are here to stay. It doesn't surprise me old people don't understand and/or can't grasp the concept.

Yep people are stuck in the 1980's thinking. It is the year 2018.
Betcha Fager fan still makes bets at the track.

Hooray for progress in technology.

Allan

[biggestal99]

Futures killed the volatility of BTC. It's been stuck between mid 12s-high 13s for quite some time. Staying long, no more trading for me.

LOL. UP 8.3% today as typing this at 14700.

Allan

[Fager Fan]

Yep people are stuck in the 1980's thinking. It is the year 2018.
Betcha Fager fan still makes bets at the track.

Hooray for progress in technology.

Allan

Why don't you ask for your next paycheck to be paid in bitcoins? Have fun paying your bills. The only way you'll be able to do so is by finding someone who will exchange it for US dollars. It's not a currency yet, and I predict it never will be. It's just a trading speculation. Not backed by any government or anything. It's a huge Ponzi scheme. All the excitement over this is over speculation or how to use it for illegal purposes. The only way for it to succeed as currency is for there to be no excitement over those two reasons, which would make it no better than the US dollar, so why would I prefer it over the US dollar?

I look forward to the day when all the fools are crying over holding their worthless bitcoins. But congrats on giving millions and millions to the people who first invented the computer play money.

[davew]

LOL. UP 8.3% today as typing this at 14700.

Allan

It is difficult to predict when an investment speculative bubble will burst. It was at 18000 the day trading opened.

[Fager Fan]

It is difficult to predict when an investment speculative bubble will burst. It was at 18000 the day trading opened.

He doesn't even realize the issue with such an increase. Unless it's very stable, it won't be a currency.

As straight currency, would the used car dealer take a $14,700 valued bitcoin over $14,700 in cash? No. It's too volatile. That's in addition to now having to find an auction house to accept bitcoins to buy his next car at auction and utility companies doing the same to pay his bills.

It's playing musical chairs. I'm happy with the fact I won't be left without a chair when the music stops.

[baconswitchfarm]

Why don't you ask for your next paycheck to be paid in bitcoins? Have fun paying your bills. The only way you'll be able to do so is by finding someone who will exchange it for US dollars. It's not a currency yet, and I predict it never will be. It's just a trading speculation. Not backed by any government or anything. It's a huge Ponzi scheme. All the excitement over this is over speculation or how to use it for illegal purposes. The only way for it to succeed as currency is for there to be no excitement over those two reasons, which would make it no better than the US dollar, so why would I prefer it over the US dollar?

I look forward to the day when all the fools are crying over holding their worthless bitcoins. But congrats on giving millions and millions to the people who first invented the computer play money.





I watched the documentary on Netflix which was very detailed about Bitcoin. I can't imagine I would spend a penny on it until its backed by something or more regulated. Its like a fraud wrapped in a con built on a ponzi scheme. It is great for online wagering or drug dealing. Outside that, the only way to make money appears to be buying and hoping hucksters hype it up enough to resell to a bigger sucker. I'll pass for now.

[biggestal99]

Why don't you ask for your next paycheck to be paid in bitcoins? Have fun paying your bills. The only way you'll be able to do so is by finding someone who will exchange it for US dollars. It's not a currency yet, and I predict it never will be. It's just a trading speculation. Not backed by any government or anything. It's a huge Ponzi scheme. All the excitement over this is over speculation or how to use it for illegal purposes. The only way for it to succeed as currency is for there to be no excitement over those two reasons, which would make it no better than the US dollar, so why would I prefer it over the US dollar?

I look forward to the day when all the fools are crying over holding their worthless bitcoins. But congrats on giving millions and millions to the people who first invented the computer play money.

Bitcoins are completely liquid.

Its the same as any other commodity.

supply and demand.

Here is the exchange link.

https://www.gdax.com/trade/BTC-USD

You are welcome.

Allan

[AndyC]

It's odds-on that my home "investment" will never become profitable during my lifetime. However...there is a better-than-average chance that I might recoup my losses by investing in Bitcoin and Ripple.

Perhaps if you studied the PPs for real estate as much as you do for the races then you might not have such a pessimistic viewpoint.

[lamboguy]

with the tax changes, rental property should do very well. its been a good game for the past 8 years. if you live in an are that has travelers, you might want to try short term rentals. i do it with AirBnB that has worked out very well. i started with 1 room in May and i now have 5 that are booked from an April to the end of November 99% of the time. in December i hit 80%, and i hope to get to 60% this month. the rates in the winter time are about 1/3 as much as the peak season.

[PaceAdvantage]

Why don't you ask for your next paycheck to be paid in bitcoins? Have fun paying your bills. The only way you'll be able to do so is by finding someone who will exchange it for US dollars. It's not a currency yet, and I predict it never will be. It's just a trading speculation. Not backed by any government or anything. It's a huge Ponzi scheme. All the excitement over this is over speculation or how to use it for illegal purposes. The only way for it to succeed as currency is for there to be no excitement over those two reasons, which would make it no better than the US dollar, so why would I prefer it over the US dollar?

I look forward to the day when all the fools are crying over holding their worthless bitcoins. But congrats on giving millions and millions to the people who first invented the computer play money.A lot of people think the same of the US dollar...what's it backed by? Faith in the US government to pay up? That's reassuring...

Someone is willing to pay over $15,000 for one bitcoin. Wish I had some...

Same thing.

If/when people LOSE faith in the US Dollar, you'll need a wheelbarrow full of dollars to buy a loaf of bread.

If/when people LOSE faith in bitcoin, it will be worthless...

Yeah, the chances of lost faith a much more likely with bitcoin vs. US Dollar, but you get my point. Neither is backed by anything except FAITH.

[PaceAdvantage]

I watched the documentary on Netflix which was very detailed about Bitcoin. I can't imagine I would spend a penny on it until its backed by something or more regulated. Its like a fraud wrapped in a con built on a ponzi scheme. It is great for online wagering or drug dealing. Outside that, the only way to make money appears to be buying and hoping hucksters hype it up enough to resell to a bigger sucker. I'll pass for now.You could say exactly the same about each and every stock on the NYSE...buying and hoping to resell to a bigger sucker....lol

[Fager Fan]

A lot of people think the same of the US dollar...what's it backed by? Faith in the US government to pay up? That's reassuring...

Someone is willing to pay over $15,000 for one bitcoin. Wish I had some...

Same thing.

If/when people LOSE faith in the US Dollar, you'll need a wheelbarrow full of dollars to buy a loaf of bread.

If/when people LOSE faith in bitcoin, it will be worthless...

Yeah, the chances of lost faith a much more likely with bitcoin vs. US Dollar, but you get my point. Neither is backed by anything except FAITH.

There's actual insurance. In addition, the faith is a long history that when I go anywhere in this country, someone will take US currency for what they're selling. There's also the gold in Fort Knox.

The dollar may trade for less and less in desperate times, but it'll always be tradable.

I don't participate in cons even if it could enrich me, whether it's bitcoins, carbon credits, or Amway. It insults me.

[PaceAdvantage]

There's actual insurance. In addition, the faith is a long history that when I go anywhere in this country, someone will take US currency for what they're selling. There's also the gold in Fort Knox.

The dollar may trade for less and less in desperate times, but it'll always be tradable.

I don't participate in cons even if it could enrich me, whether it's bitcoins, carbon credits, orMore people than you probably realize think fiat currency is the biggest con of all. US Dollar is fiat currency.

[Fager Fan]

More people than you probably realize think fiat currency is the biggest con of all. US Dollar is fiat currency.

I don't, unless you're talking of government printing, but there's consequences. Every society must have a common currency, and this is ours. Why is it a con?

[PaceAdvantage]

I didn't say I believe the US Dollar is a con, now did I?

However, I'm not one to jump and down about bitcoin being a con, because I'm sensible when it comes to these sorts of things.

If you're going to go to the extreme about bitcoin, you must examine the extreme view of other, more "accepted" forms of currency.

They really aren't all that different when you get down to the nitty gritty.

Wasn't there a song...Gotta Have FAITH! lol

[Fager Fan]

I didn't say I believe the US Dollar is a con, now did I?

However, I'm not one to jump and down about bitcoin being a con, because I'm sensible when it comes to these sorts of things.

If you're going to go to the extreme about bitcoin, you must examine the extreme view of other, more "accepted" forms of currency.

They really aren't all that different when you get down to the nitty gritty.

Wasn't there a song...Gotta Have FAITH! lol

No, I didn't say you did, I just thought you could explain to me why some think it's a con.

I have a visceral reaction to crypocurrency, and I don't have that reaction from total ignorance. I've read quite a bit on it. I had the same reaction to the millions Gore made hawking carbon credits. If I end up being wrong, then I'll be wrong, but I wish I could make a bet on betcoins in the opposite direction than those buying them.

[reckless]

More people than you probably realize think fiat currency is the biggest con of all. US Dollar is fiat currency.

Maybe so but the US dollar is still backed by an economy whose GDP is roughly $20 trillion.

A stable democratic-republic form of government, too, which its always and incorrectly hardly ever mentioned in the Bitcoin discussion.

Foreign investments into the USA is roughly $2.5 trillion and US investment world-wide is about $3.5 trillion dollars the other. There's loads of intrinsic value in both the US 'dollar', the US government and the world economy.

Yes, our very own US government debauches the currency with deficit spending and a never-ending printing press but the 'dollar' is far from a near-worthless fiat currency. And those Winklevoss twins usually say Bitcoin is the great new next big thing because the US dollar is 'fiat' currency. A joke and a hustle, imo.

What is backing the Winklevoss twins, Bitcoin, and other similar crypto currency firms exactly?

Is Block Chain technology proprietary? If not, what value is there in the technology besides Wall Street hype?

As to simply imply that Bitcoin, et al, is a needed world-wide payment system .... really? Who should we trust more to handle payment transfers, etc., ... the Winklevoss twins? ... the Google Guys? ... any Soros-backed techfin firm? ... or Visa, American Express, Master Card and the major banking systems of the world which already have the technology, infrastructure, finances, history and acceptance firmly in place?

[PaceAdvantage]

If I end up being wrong, then I'll be wrong, but I wish I could make a bet on betcoins in the opposite direction than those buying them.Luckily for you, you can. Let us know what price you get in short at...

http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/bitcoin-futures.html

[PaceAdvantage]

Maybe so but the US dollar is still backed by an economy whose GDP is roughly $20 trillion.

A stable democratic-republic form of government, too, which its always and incorrectly hardly ever mentioned in the Bitcoin discussion.

Foreign investments into the USA is roughly $2.5 trillion and US investment world-wide is about $3.5 trillion dollars the other. There's loads of intrinsic value in both the US 'dollar', the US government and the world economy.

Yes, our very own US government debauches the currency with deficit spending and a never-ending printing press but the 'dollar' is far from a near-worthless fiat currency. And those Winklevoss twins usually say Bitcoin is the great new next big thing because the US dollar is 'fiat' currency. A joke and a hustle, imo.

What is backing the Winklevoss twins, Bitcoin, and other similar crypto currency firms exactly?

Is Block Chain technology proprietary? If not, what value is there in the technology besides Wall Street hype?

As to simply imply that Bitcoin, et al, is a needed world-wide payment system .... really? Who should we trust more to handle payment transfers, etc., ... the Winklevoss twins? ... the Google Guys? ... any Soros-backed techfin firm? ... or Visa, American Express, Master Card and the major banking systems of the world which already have the technology, infrastructure, finances, history and acceptance firmly in place?Look, once again, someone is taking simple statements and extrapolating them into me saying something like the US dollar is near-worthless. Never said that...never said fiat currency is near-worthless.

All I am saying is, before people damn bitcoin with all these knee-jerk criticisms, take a step back and think about what's really backing the money in your wallet...

[reckless]

Look, once again, someone is taking simple statements and extrapolating them into me saying something like the US dollar is near-worthless. Never said that...never said fiat currency is near-worthless.

All I am saying is, before people damn bitcoin with all these knee-jerk criticisms, take a step back and think about what's really backing the money in your wallet...

Mike, I was making an argument and extrapolated of what the pro-Bitcoin people say when they defend this scam and scheme. I didn't post what I did as a criticism of you or your post.

Anyone who says Bitcoin and those future resultant knock-offs will be the world's currency of choice by claiming the dollar is just worthless fiat scrip should be laughed off the stage, so to speak. Anyone who buys their b-shat and plays these hucksters' games with real money should have their head examined.

I put holes in the Wilklevoss boys Bitcoin argument and not what you were parroting.

[PaceAdvantage]

Understood.

I just think Bitcoin gets damned too much by critics while the US Dollar doesn't get damned enough...:lol:

[thaskalos]

All this negativity towards cryptocurrencies has me a little confused. I've made 70X my money investing in something called Tronix (TRX), in less than a month's time. Did I make a mistake?:confused:

[lamboguy]

you did better than me, i held gold and gold stocks the last 6 years and all they did was go down in value. but it doesn't make any difference to me, i am going to buy gold whether its $1000 or $10,000. i know that is the only way to protect what you have so i am sticking with my plan.

[davew]

All this negativity towards cryptocurrencies has me a little confused. I've made 70X my money investing in something called Tronix (TRX), in less than a month's time. Did I make a mistake?:confused:

market adjusted or cash in hand?

[thaskalos]

market adjusted or cash in hand?

Well...the game goes on. I've got an Ivy-League college tuition to pay for. My point is that even a "scam" can be an effective investment vehicle...if there is a decent "exit strategy" in place. One needn't be left "holding the bag".

[reckless]

I offer nothing but my sincerest best wishes for you on your trade, Thask.

I would never walk down the Bitcoin road for sure, but that's me, and only me. We all dance to the tune of a different drummer yet I see nothing but heart ache at the intersection of Block Chain Technology and Cryptocurrency.

[PaceAdvantage]

If I end up being wrong, then I'll be wrong, but I wish I could make a bet on betcoins in the opposite direction than those buying them.Did you open your futures account yet and short BitCoin?

[Fager Fan]

Did you open your futures account yet and short BitCoin?

No, I haven't. I have no idea when it'll fail, I only feel sure that it will and won't ever be a real currency. I don't believe anywheee takes that kind of bet.

[biggestal99]

No, I haven't. I have no idea when it'll fail, I only feel sure that it will and won't ever be a real currency. I don't believe anywheee takes that kind of bet.

Are you kidding me, you can short bitcoin.

Just google, short bitcoin.

There are plenty of people like yourself who don’t believe in it

Just like shorting horses on betfair exchange.

some horses fail and cha-Ching goes the cash register.

What kind of odds are we talking about the bitcoin fails in 2018.

Even money?

1-10 on?

Allan

[biggestal99]

Are you kidding me, you can short bitcoin.

Just google, short bitcoin.

There are plenty of people like yourself who don’t believe in it

Just like shorting horses on betfair exchange.

some horses fail and cha-Ching goes the cash register.

What kind of odds are we talking about the bitcoin fails in 2018.

Even money?

1-10 on?

Allan

Betfair has it evens that bitcoin will be below 5000 at the stroke of midnight. December 31, 2018.

Allan

[lamboguy]

Betfair has it evens that bitcoin will be below 5000 at the stroke of midnight. December 31, 2018.

Allan
how much can you get down for?

[biggestal99]

how much can you get down for?

Right now at this very second


138 @ 2.16
468 @ 2.14
203 @ 2.10

Allan

[biggestal99]

For a cheaper thrill use ripple (I kid you not)

Allan

[fast4522]

Bit Coin the snowflake money.

[PaceAdvantage]

how much can you get down for?You can get down as much as you want on a regulated US futures market...forget betfair...

DOES ANYONE PAY ATTENTION TO ME?

All you bitcoin bangers can bet your entire RETIREMENTS and FORTUNES on it going down, if you want, right here:

You can even choose the CME or CBOE...you've heard of those, right?

http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/bitcoin-futures.html

http://cfe.cboe.com/cfe-products/xbt-cboe-bitcoin-futures

Come on guys...let us know what price you get short at...

EASY MONEY!

[barahona44]

DOES ANYONE PAY ATTENTION TO ME?



Well, if you have to ask the question...:lol:

[lamboguy]

You can get down as much as you want on a regulated US futures market...forget betfair...

DOES ANYONE PAY ATTENTION TO ME?

All you bitcoin bangers can bet your entire RETIREMENTS and FORTUNES on it going down, if you want, right here:

You can even choose the CME or CBOE...you've heard of those, right?

http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/bitcoin-futures.html

http://cfe.cboe.com/cfe-products/xbt-cboe-bitcoin-futures

Come on guys...let us know what price you get short at...

EASY MONEY! the deal they are giving away on Betfair is a good one, it is binary. you can bet even money that it will be over $5000 by the end of the year. right now its over $15000!

[Tape Reader]

You can get down as much as you want on a regulated US futures market...forget betfair...

DOES ANYONE PAY ATTENTION TO ME?

All you bitcoin bangers can bet your entire RETIREMENTS and FORTUNES on it going down, if you want, right here:

You can even choose the CME or CBOE...you've heard of those, right?

http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/bitcoin-futures.html

http://cfe.cboe.com/cfe-products/xbt-cboe-bitcoin-futures

Come on guys...let us know what price you get short at...

EASY MONEY!

And the chart since it has been trading is oh so ordinary. Just like any other future.

[biggestal99]

You can get down as much as you want on a regulated US futures market...forget betfair...

DOES ANYONE PAY ATTENTION TO ME?

All you bitcoin bangers can bet your entire RETIREMENTS and FORTUNES on it going down, if you want, right here:

You can even choose the CME or CBOE...you've heard of those, right?

http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/bitcoin-futures.html

http://cfe.cboe.com/cfe-products/xbt-cboe-bitcoin-futures

Come on guys...let us know what price you get short at...

EASY MONEY!


Easy money indeed as BC drops 13% in 24 hours.

Allan

[Fager Fan]

You can get down as much as you want on a regulated US futures market...forget betfair...

DOES ANYONE PAY ATTENTION TO ME?

All you bitcoin bangers can bet your entire RETIREMENTS and FORTUNES on it going down, if you want, right here:

You can even choose the CME or CBOE...you've heard of those, right?

http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/bitcoin-futures.html

http://cfe.cboe.com/cfe-products/xbt-cboe-bitcoin-futures

Come on guys...let us know what price you get short at...

EASY MONEY!

Why should anyone bet their retirements on anything? To prove themselves a fool?

I'm not quite sure what your angle is. To mock those who think this is a con or ponzi scheme?

It's going to fail. Some will get rich off the con, and for everyone who got rich off it, there will be the losers whose money they took. There's nothing like investing in nothing!

[biggestal99]

Per IRS regulations, Bitcoin (and other cyptocurrencies) is a piece of property subject to capital gains tax.

Allan

[PaceAdvantage]

Why should anyone bet their retirements on anything? To prove themselves a fool?

I'm not quite sure what your angle is. To mock those who think this is a con or ponzi scheme?

It's going to fail. Some will get rich off the con, and for everyone who got rich off it, there will be the losers whose money they took. There's nothing like investing in nothing!You do know what it means to SHORT something, correct? You make money if it GOES DOWN.

Bitcoin futures are trading on legitimate, regulated FUTURES EXCHANGES here in the USA. Same place I trade S&P futures.

Very safe.

If you are so convinced Bitcoin is a con or a ponzi scheme, you should be putting everything you can into shorting Bitcoin futures. You'd be an idiot not to.

If I was that sure about something, you'd better believe I'd be getting down as much as I could on it...

So, bottom line...you don't seem to be as convinced as you were if you haven't already opened a futures account by now...

I hope I've cleared up what I was trying to tell you earlier. I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with you...just wondering why, if you're so sure about this, you aren't trading against it...it's like walking away from an ATM spitting out free money.

[_______]

You do know what it means to SHORT something, correct? You make money if it GOES DOWN.

Bitcoin futures are trading on legitimate, regulated FUTURES EXCHANGES here in the USA. Same place I trade S&P futures.

Very safe.

If you are so convinced Bitcoin is a con or a ponzi scheme, you should be putting everything you can into shorting Bitcoin futures. You'd be an idiot not to.

If I was that sure about something, you'd better believe I'd be getting down as much as I could on it...

So, bottom line...you don't seem to be as convinced as you were if you haven't already opened a futures account by now...

I hope I've cleared up what I was trying to tell you earlier. I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with you...just wondering why, if you're so sure about this, you aren't trading against it...it's like walking away from an ATM spitting out free money.

Warren Buffett wants to sell a call or buy a put expiring in 5 years. I think Fager is on the same wavelength.

I don’t know why everyone thinks they need to have an opinion. Currencies and commodities aren’t my thing so I don’t own gold, swisss francs, or bitcoin. But if someone is young enough to take a flyer with some small portion of their portfolio, I wish them success.

[PaceAdvantage]

Warren Buffett wants to sell a call or buy a put expiring in 5 years. I think Fager is on the same wavelength.

I don’t know why everyone thinks they need to have an opinion. Currencies and commodities aren’t my thing so I don’t own gold, swisss francs, or bitcoin. But if someone is young enough to take a flyer with some small portion of their portfolio, I wish them success.Fager is as anti-bitcoin as anyone I've seen on here. If I were him, I'd be chomping at the bit to short this thing. On one of the most legitimate and regulated futures markets in the world. (CME / CBOE)

I've pointed him towards those means. What he does is up to him.

As they say, put your money where your mouth is.

[Zaf]

You do know what it means to SHORT something, correct? You make money if it GOES DOWN.

Bitcoin futures are trading on legitimate, regulated FUTURES EXCHANGES here in the USA. Same place I trade S&P futures.

Very safe.

If you are so convinced Bitcoin is a con or a ponzi scheme, you should be putting everything you can into shorting Bitcoin futures. You'd be an idiot not to.

If I was that sure about something, you'd better believe I'd be getting down as much as I could on it...

So, bottom line...you don't seem to be as convinced as you were if you haven't already opened a futures account by now...

I hope I've cleared up what I was trying to tell you earlier. I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with you...just wondering why, if you're so sure about this, you aren't trading against it...it's like walking away from an ATM spitting out free money.

:headbanger::ThmbUp:

[Jeff P]

Here's What Warren Buffett Just Said About Bitcoin:
https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/01/10/heres-what-warren-buffett-just-said-about-bitcoin.aspx

But he's not about to short bitcoin, either
Although Buffett has a negative outlook for cryptocurrencies, you won't see him shorting them anytime soon.

"If I could buy a five-year put on every one of the cryptocurrencies, I'd be glad to do it but I would never short a dime's worth."

The recent introduction of bitcoin futures allows traders to bet against the leading digital currency for the first time, and while it may seem like a no-brainer for a bitcoin bear like Buffett, it's far too dangerous.

Simple put, the reward potential doesn't justify the risk, especially for an asset that is as volatile as bitcoin. For example, let's say that you shorted one bitcoin while it traded for $14,000. If bitcoin fell to zero, the most you can make is $14,000 on your trade. On the other hand, the loss potential is unlimited. I've said that under the right circumstances, bitcoin could get much higher. If bitcoin were to reach $100,000, for example, your short position would result in a loss of $86,000.

I've added red font to the above quote for emphasis.

A five-year put is a very different thing than a short.

A five-year put?... Maybe. (Provided I could find one at a decent price.)

But a short?... No way in hell.

If you were to short Bitcoin in any significant way -- and if the trade went against you:

In all likelihood you would end up losing your entire life savings.

That's not a bet I'd urge anyone to make... not even my worst enemy.


-jp

.

[PaceAdvantage]

Ummm...they do offer a little something called a STOP that will limit your losses on any trade, including futures.

That way, YOU can set your loss limit...what's written above is kind of silly if you actually know something about trading (not saying you don't...just talking in general).

[lamboguy]

there are 3 different phases in equities.

1. accumulation

2. mark up

3. distribution

anytime you short before mark up and distribution, you will be fighting an uphill battle.

knowing which phase the equity is in is the basic key to this.

i went broke shorting Pulte homes at the wrong time. if i had known then what i do now i would have scored big on my short.

[Jeff P]

Ummm...they do offer a little something called a STOP that will limit your losses on any trade, including futures.

That way, YOU can set your loss limit...what's written above is kind of silly if you actually know something about trading (not saying you don't...just talking in general).

I posted what I did because I just about never use a stop or even think about them for the positions I take.

99% of the time that I take a position I'm long (as in years.)

I take positions when I think I see solid fundamentals, and do my best to ignore all the head fakes, ups and downs, noise, sentiment, etc., and hold for the long term.

99% of the time, the only thing that gets me out of a position - is when I think the fundamentals have changed.

If that makes me something other than a trader: so be it.

That said, I stand by what I posted.

You won't catch me shorting Bitcoin. (Nor will you catch me suggesting to anyone who posts here that they should short Bitcoin either.)


-jp

.

[Tape Reader]

Ummm...they do offer a little something called a STOP that will limit your losses on any trade, including futures.


Not if it goes Limit Up/Limit Down. The scariest position ever to be in, in trading futures.

[PaceAdvantage]

Not if it goes Limit Up/Limit Down. The scariest position ever to be in, in trading futures.Well, if you (using the general YOU here, not YOU personally) think Bitcoins are a sham and a ponzi scheme, but you're scared of them going limit up, then I would suggest you really don't think they are such a scam after all.

And let's be realistic here...unless some major country abandons their current currency and declares Bitcoin their currency going forward (chances of that happening are, dare I say, nil), you really don't have that much to worry about in terms of losing your life savings in a lock limit situation.

For the record, I am not going to trade Bitcoin futures...long or short...I'm just asking those who are so bearish on them and call them a scam and a ponzi scheme, why aren't you itching to short at least 1 contract...:lol:

[Fager Fan]

Well, if you (using the general YOU here, not YOU personally) think Bitcoins are a sham and a ponzi scheme, but you're scared of them going limit up, then I would suggest you really don't think they are such a scam after all.

And let's be realistic here...unless some major country abandons their current currency and declares Bitcoin their currency going forward (chances of that happening are, dare I say, nil), you really don't have that much to worry about in terms of losing your life savings in a lock limit situation.

For the record, I am not going to trade Bitcoin futures...long or short...I'm just asking those who are so bearish on them and call them a scam and a ponzi scheme, why aren't you itching to short at least 1 contract...:lol:

Because I don't ever itch to gamble.

I thought about your question after you asked it. Other than my lack of willingness to see gambling as anything more than an entertainment expense, why would I want to bet on something with that risk/reward ratio?

[PaceAdvantage]

Because I don't ever itch to gamble.

I thought about your question after you asked it. Other than my lack of willingness to see gambling as anything more than an entertainment expense, why would I want to bet on something with that risk/reward ratio?Well then, you should reconsider your theory that bitcoin is nothing more than a con and/or a ponzi scheme, which is what you wrote earlier.

Because if in fact you believed this, then shorting bitcoin on the futures market wouldn't be a gamble to you. It would be free money. Because something that has gone sky high recently, but is nothing more than a con and/or a ponzi scheme...WILL come crashing down one day.

See ENRON as an example:

https://www.begintoinvest.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/enron-stock-chart.gif

[Lemon Drop Husker]

If you could sell illegal drugs legally on the stock market, what would you pay for it?

[Fager Fan]

Well then, you should reconsider your theory that bitcoin is nothing more than a con and/or a ponzi scheme, which is what you wrote earlier.

Because if in fact you believed this, then shorting bitcoin on the futures market wouldn't be a gamble to you. It would be free money. Because something that has gone sky high recently, but is nothing more than a con and/or a ponzi scheme...WILL come crashing down one day.

See ENRON as an example:

https://www.begintoinvest.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/enron-stock-chart.gif

It WILL come crashing down one day. It doesn't mean I will be involved in any way.

[davew]

Because if in fact you believed this, then shorting bitcoin on the futures market wouldn't be a gamble to you. It would be free money. Because something that has gone sky high recently, but is nothing more than a con and/or a ponzi scheme...WILL come crashing down one day.


Do they have minis somewhere? other wise with a 30K maintenance, you need a half a million in your account to cover swings.

[reckless]

Needless to say, we've been overwhelmed beyond boredom about Bitcoin, etc. these past many months, especially when that price started racing towards $20,000.

But, one week ago January 7, 2018, the Dow Jones Industrial Averages hit 25,000 ... and just this morning, only one week later, the Dow has crossed 26,000!!

Yet, very little commentary on here about the stock market, especially the Dow ... not just in recent months but since... let's say 11-2-16, 8,000 + points ago! Yet, very little commentary on here about the stock market, especially the Dow ... not just in recent months but since... let's say 11-2-16, 8,000 + points ago!

[Tape Reader]

As I type Bitcoin is trading on the CBOE around 11770. Once trading on an exchange opened a “two-way-street” a more orderly market arrived.

Free market capitalism, the best!

[_______]

Needless to say, we've been overwhelmed beyond boredom about Bitcoin, etc. these past many months, especially when that price started racing towards $20,000.

But, one week ago January 7, 2018, the Dow Jones Industrial Averages hit 25,000 ... and just this morning, only one week later, the Dow has crossed 26,000!!

Yet, very little commentary on here about the stock market, especially the Dow ... not just in recent months but since... let's say 11-2-16, 8,000 + points ago! Yet, very little commentary on here about the stock market, especially the Dow ... not just in recent months but since... let's say 11-2-16, 8,000 + points ago!

It’s not just very little commentary. What little commentary there has been is largely about how overvalued the market has gotten. Not just since 11-2-2016 (or 11-8-2016) though. It’s been true throughout the rally which started in March 2009.

You can own part of a company that generates a profit and shares it with you or you can spend time watching one minute ticks and trying to guess which direction the next one moves. I can’t imagine putting that much effort into something when there is such an easy alternative for generating capital gains and income.

Of course, you might not want to own a portion of the greatest capitalist economy in the world. You could always buy some shiny rocks instead. Plenty of people have made that choice despite the fact those rocks have consistently lost value vs. equities on any long term horizon.

There is just no accounting (I mean that literally) for the choices many make with their money.

[lamboguy]

Bitcoin has fallen from $20,000 down to $10,000 in about a week. i have no idea if Bitcoin will be around or not be around going forward.

the people that i have spoken to that own the Bitcoin say they own it because they don't trust fiat currency. i told them they should sell Bitcoin and buy precious metals with the money they have.. they say its going much higher.

i still say buy insurance, own gold. but in my opinion, one of these crypto's will withstand the test of time, my problem is there are so many of them now and probably more in the future that i don't know which one is the right one. i say gold will be around for about another 5000 years.

[PaceAdvantage]

See how much money you bitcoin-bashers could have made in one week shorting on the futures market?

I gave you the keys to the kingdom that you didn't even know existed, but you refused to run with it...:lol:

[Fager Fan]

See how much money you bitcoin-bashers could have made in one week shorting on the futures market?

I gave you the keys to the kingdom that you didn't even know existed, but you refused to run with it...:lol:

How much Bitcoin do you own?

[PaceAdvantage]

How much Bitcoin do you own?None...I have no opinion on it one way or another...never have.

I view it as a curiosity.

[timmy2toes]

Hi all,

Just throwing my 2 cents worth into this topic.

Personally i really love the idea of having control of my own money and not trusting a 3rd party like a bank. I believe all we do is get either fleeced by the banks or the government.

Your money, your rules!!

Regards timmy2toes.

P>S id love your thoughts on my perspective:ThmbUp:

[davew]

timmy2toes, can you use your cryptos to fill up your car with gasoline or buy a burger at a drive through?

[PICSIX]

Bitcoin is currently priced at $6,750; headed to $5,500 IMO.

[PICSIX]

$5,535 this morning.

[chadk66]

it'll be done by the end of the year I'd guess

[MONEY]

Bit coin hovering around $4,000.00 today.

https://www.ccn.com/bitcoin-price/

[barahona44]

Bitcoin - the S & H green stamps of the 21st century.

[PICSIX]

Bitcoin is now worth less than the cost to mine it according to JP Morgan. If true, and there is no incentive to mine (verify transactions), how does it not go to zero?

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/bitcoin-worth-less-cost-mine-105331363.html

[newtothegame]

Yes and no. One can say that putting their money in anything but the mattress means they're gambling, but they could even lose the money in the mattress if they're robbed.

I guess we're "gambling" every day with our lives as we drive a car or board a plane or cross a street or eat a cheeseburger.

So we can take it all to the extreme, but we generally know what we're talking about when we talk about investing and gambling and the differences between the two.

This is why you may think of cryptos as ridiculous or terrible bets. Maybe its because you know very little about them? It seems a lot of banks are signing on to the block chain technologies .....

[newtothegame]

He doesn't even realize the issue with such an increase. Unless it's very stable, it won't be a currency.

As straight currency, would the used car dealer take a $14,700 valued bitcoin over $14,700 in cash? No. It's too volatile. That's in addition to now having to find an auction house to accept bitcoins to buy his next car at auction and utility companies doing the same to pay his bills.

It's playing musical chairs. I'm happy with the fact I won't be left without a chair when the music stops.

Seems Lamborghini dealer disagrees.....https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/07/bitcoin-millionaires-are-buying-lamborghinis-with-cryptocurrency.html

[Show Me the Wire]

Seems Lamborghini dealer disagrees.....https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/07/bitcoin-millionaires-are-buying-lamborghinis-with-cryptocurrency.html

The only value bitcoin has to the car dealer is the value of the exchange rate.

“We do not really take bitcoin, we do not speculate on [the] exchange rate,” Frigerio says, a point being driven home by bitcoins’ recent plunge. “We just facilitate the owner of bitcoin by running the transaction through a payment service. Similar [to] using Apple Pay or PayPal, or running foreign currency though a foreign exchange financial institution in order to receive U.S. dollars.”
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/07/bitcoin-millionaires-are-buying-lamborghinis-with-cryptocurrency.html

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I'm simply amazed that people invest in BitCoin and Tesla.

[newtothegame]

The only value bitcoin has to the car dealer is the value of the exchange rate.

“We do not really take bitcoin, we do not speculate on [the] exchange rate,” Frigerio says, a point being driven home by bitcoins’ recent plunge. “We just facilitate the owner of bitcoin by running the transaction through a payment service. Similar [to] using Apple Pay or PayPal, or running foreign currency though a foreign exchange financial institution in order to receive U.S. dollars.”
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/07/bitcoin-millionaires-are-buying-lamborghinis-with-cryptocurrency.html

Actually, if you read further, you would see that "Michael’s Auto Plaza in Albany, New York, also began accepting bitcoin payments through BitPay in December".
Either way though, the point is that cryptocurrency is definitely a possibility. Banks are looking at block chains, etc etc. The IMF is even talking about regulations....
So, I do not believe its a Ponzi scheme. Now again, this does not mean that I have went and mortgaged the house or may substantial buys. Its just an opinion.....

[Show Me the Wire]

Actually, if you read further, you would see that "Michael’s Auto Plaza in Albany, New York, also began accepting bitcoin payments through BitPay in December".
Either way though, the point is that cryptocurrency is definitely a possibility. Banks are looking at block chains, etc etc. The IMF is even talking about regulations....
So, I do not believe its a Ponzi scheme. Now again, this does not mean that I have went and mortgaged the house or may substantial buys. Its just an opinion.....

I don't think it is a ponzi scheme. The problem is what is its value. Currency issued by a government is backed by the credit of the government. Whose credit is backing the value of bitcoin?

The true value of currency is what goods can you exchange for the currency. Bitcoin is sort of like the coins issued by the Continental in John Wick movies.

[newtothegame]

I don't think it is a ponzi scheme. The problem is what is its value. Currency issued by a government is backed by the credit of the government. Whose credit is backing the value of bitcoin?

The true value of currency is what goods can you exchange for the currency. Bitcoin is sort of like the coins issued by the Continental in John Wick movies.

You could make the same argument about other investments like (stocks). They have a value that is sometimes insanely low or high. Look at Berkshire Class A....

I do agree that crypto's are a bit more of a long shot and more speculative. Thats why the gains can and have shown to be much greater. Same for Risk.

[Gorrex]

We started accepting Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash for ADW deposits through Bitpay last july. Just in case anyone wants to divest :P

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/228506/amwager-com-to-accept-bitcoin-deposits

[newtothegame]

Interesting article in which major university endowment funds are investing....
https://coincodex.com/article/3418/harvard-endowment-invests-in-blockstack-crypto-related-investments-are-now-common-among-endowments/

[newtothegame]

Hmmm interesting that in the Mueller report, Crypto's and Bit coin were mentioned as being used by the GRU to hack the DNC. My post here is not to rehash the hacking but the fact that crypto's and bitcoin were used kind of debunks the theory of those just being a Ponzi scheme. :popcorn::popcorn: