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View Full Version : Adios to the Yonkers passing lane


cj
12-14-2017, 12:29 PM
https://twitter.com/PTMikeandMike1/status/941340569770643460

titans1127
12-14-2017, 01:26 PM
Hoping this gets approved and the racing gets a little better as a result. The less line ups, the better.

VigorsTheGrey
12-14-2017, 02:32 PM
What is so bad about a passing lane..? Doesn't it make for a more level playing field so that pressers have a chance without being blocked...?
Isn't that why they created it in the first place..?

titans1127
12-14-2017, 07:43 PM
What is so bad about a passing lane..? Doesn't it make for a more level playing field so that pressers have a chance without being blocked...?
Isn't that why they created it in the first place..?Problem at Yonkers is the line up single file for 3/4th of the race. It allows favorites to dominate and front end speed will hold up as no one makes any moves to press the front end. The stretch being 660 feet long before they shortened it over the summer contributed to these issues as well. Everyone would just stay on the pylons and wait for the passing lane to make a move.

Time will tell before knowing if this will work but at least they’re giving it a shot.

VigorsTheGrey
12-14-2017, 08:18 PM
Problem at Yonkers is the line up single file for 3/4th of the race. It allows favorites to dominate and front end speed will hold up as no one makes any moves to press the front end. The stretch being 660 feet long before they shortened it over the summer contributed to these issues as well. Everyone would just stay on the pylons and wait for the passing lane to make a move.

Time will tell before knowing if this will work but at least they’re giving it a shot.
Interesting, thanks for your reply...I understand now.
Would you happen to know on these charts what the payout for exacta, tri, super, p3 p4 are the base wagers...$2...? $1...? Kind of confusing..https://racing.ustrotting.com/chart.aspx

MONEY
12-14-2017, 08:59 PM
Interesting, thanks for your reply...I understand now.
Would you happen to know on these charts what the payout for exacta, tri, super, p3 p4 are the base wagers...$2...? $1...? Kind of confusing..https://racing.ustrotting.com/chart.aspx

The USTA site gives you $2. prices at one track $1. prices at another track and a mix
of 10 cent supers, 50 tris/P3/P4/P5, $1. & $2, payouts at other tracks.

USTA also subtracts a surcharge or something from some of the payouts.
Check today's Monticello, USTA is 30 cents short on most of the payouts.

For Harness prices I use,
http://www.trackinfo.com/tracks-breed-state-results.jsp?breed=g

VigorsTheGrey
12-15-2017, 01:34 AM
The USTA site gives you $2. prices at one track $1. prices at another track and a mix
of 10 cent supers, 50 tris/P3/P4/P5, $1. & $2, payouts at other tracks.

USTA also subtracts a surcharge or something from some of the payouts.
Check today's Monticello, USTA is 30 cents short on most of the payouts.

For Harness prices I use,
http://www.trackinfo.com/tracks-breed-state-results.jsp?breed=g

Thanks Money, no wonder I was confused with the USTA site...I added trackinfo.com to Cool Racing Links:)

chaz63
12-15-2017, 07:14 AM
Yaaaaaaaay! The beginning of the end for an idea that has killed SO MUCH of harness racing! Good riddance!:headbanger:

VigorsTheGrey
12-22-2017, 02:46 AM
https://extra.betamerica.com/post-time-w-mike-and-mike-harness-show-122117/

Passing lane discussions

Ray2000
12-22-2017, 05:56 AM
https://extra.betamerica.com/post-time-w-mike-and-mike-harness-show-122117/

Passing lane discussions

I haven't listened to it yet, so I don't know if they talked about this ...
Another discussion with Director of Racing Cammie Haughton (DRF newsletter) brought up the car speed at the start of the race as an issue. Slowing the car down would allow outside horses more of a chance to accelerate and encourage more horses to leave.

Not sure I buy it.:confused:

wilderness
12-22-2017, 07:14 AM
The USTA site gives you $2. prices at one track $1. prices at another track and a mix
of 10 cent supers, 50 tris/P3/P4/P5, $1. & $2, payouts at other tracks.

USTA also subtracts a surcharge or something from some of the payouts.
Check today's Monticello, USTA is 30 cents short on most of the payouts.

For Harness prices I use,
http://www.trackinfo.com/tracks-breed-state-results.jsp?breed=g

FWIW, the USTA may only use the data (they do not edit and confirm) that is entered into the USTA's data system by the clerk of the track.
Possibly, there is room for standard rules of data entry, however that might require board approval.

HWIG
12-22-2017, 05:07 PM
I was there at Maywood Park when the the open stretch was introduced.
I believe it was the first track to race with the pylons.
It really opened up 1/2 mile racing.
Horses at Maywood would move a lot on the backstretch and horses on
the rail had no chance once locked into the rail.
You are going to find this happening again at Yonkers when your horse is
locked in with nowhere to go.
I am sad to see it removed.

Postime
12-22-2017, 06:31 PM
I agree removing passing lane is a mistake, at least now the horse's locked on the rail by dead horse's 1st and 2nd over can come up the passing lane and have a chance to win. This only favors the lead horse more and a 1st quarter battle that the outside horse's can't win 75% of the time.The best Horse's in the game can't go parked 4 turns on that track and win.:puke::coffee:

pandy
12-23-2017, 12:03 AM
The passing lane is one of those things that sounded like a good idea but the negative far outweighed the positive. We have to remember that the harness tracks in NY used to be big business and during that time they did not have a passing lane.

That being said, removing the passing lane is a baby step. The steel sulkies are the "innovation" that caused the most damage to the movement and product, not the passing lane.

Yonkers is also considering using a slanted starting gate, which does help. So if they have a slanted gate and no passing lane, that should be an improvement, but I still don't see it as being enough. The bottom line is, half mile harness racing going one mile with the steel bikes just isn't very good racing. It's dominated by inside speed horses and favorites win too often (42% at Yonkers). If they want to keep using the steel sulkies, the really should be racing at longer distances than a mile so it's not as easy to go wire to wire.

wilderness
12-23-2017, 05:43 AM
Hey Bob,
You've been on this sulky-bend for some years now.
FWIW, it's totally irrelevant.

The sulkies may have some partial influence, however the wheels and a part of the wheels are the real innovation, and that is never even mentioned by the industry.
There should be a required designation if the PP's.

Many drivers are using race bikes that cost 5-7k or more. The driver that uses a lesser quality bike has no chance of competing, and neither (advantage of disadvantage) is mentioned in the PP's.

We already have piles of useless data in PP's, and where on earth would they add five more lines (or more) for equipment.

I'm an old-timer and grew up being used to seeing 'BE' in the lines, however just recently noticed that it's no longer shown in the race lines, rather off to the right in the comments section. IMO a piss-poor placing of that designation.

pandy
12-23-2017, 07:32 AM
You bring up a good point about handicapping bikes. Everytime a new generation of sulky came in only one or two drivers would have the new bike at first and they therefore had an unfair advantage. Often only professional bettors and sharp handicappers who watched these things closely knew this, and that screwed up handicapping because horses would run surprisingly better than their past performances. This was very obvious at Roosevelt and Yonkers when Joe King's modified sulky came in in 1977. Tom Merriman and Butch Dokey had the bikes and were suddenly beating superstar drivers Herve Filion and Carmine Abbatiello. Bettors were left out in the cold, terrible.

I've mentioned the wheels, in fact, I noted the sulkies and wheels in my letter to Harness Racing Update last Sunday. However I think the bikes add to the speed much more than the wheels. The sulkies that are used now are 10 inch off centered which puts the horse ten inches closer to the pylons, plus the bikes are lighter and more aerodynamic and hitched higher on the horse. From an engineering standpoint, there's a huge difference between the wood bikes and the ones being used now. But there's also math. With some of these bikes, when they first appeared, the races literally went much faster. The modified sulky was easily two seconds faster on a half and three to four seconds faster on a one mile track. In 1978 and 79 all of the track records changed drastically. The horses didn't magically get four seconds faster. Then when the first off set bike came in, The Harmer, in the early '90's, that was also a few seconds faster than the other bikes and once again speed records fell. As a professional handicapper who also bets every day, I followed these things closely. And, of course, I've corresponded with a few professional harness bettors over the years and they were always right on top of it. When these new bikes come in, the pros have their binoculars out and they bet the new bikes.

wilderness
12-23-2017, 08:43 AM
Bob,
You've missed the point!
Although your commentary and analysis is worthwhile.

What reduces friction? That's the real innovation neither published or spoken of.

I'll give you a hint.
In the 1890s when the pneumatic wheel came into being, besides the wheel itself there was another little publicized innovation.

Further hint?
There's a great controversy with an 1890s horse (Nancy Hanks) and to whether or not Nancy Hanks used the un-mentioned innovation in the high-wheel-sulky (pre-pneumatic tire/wheels) to set a then record.

pandy
12-23-2017, 08:47 AM
Bob,
You've missed the point!
Although your commentary and analysis is worthwhile.

What reduces friction? That's the real innovation neither published or spoken of.

I'll give you a hint.
In the 1890s when the pneumatic wheel came into being, besides the wheel itself there was another little publicized innovation.

Further hint?
There's a great controversy with an 1890s horse (Nancy Hanks) and to whether or not Nancy Hanks used the un-mentioned innovation in the high-wheel-sulky (pre-pneumatic tire/wheels) to set a then record.


I do think the wheels are better, and that adds to the speed. But an aerodynamic sulky also reduces friction. Right?

wilderness
12-23-2017, 09:18 AM
Yes, agree.

However there is something making a much more dramatic improvement today's harness racing times, and as it did 1892's harness racing.

Another hint?
Watch an old western with a blacksmith working on a wagon wheel an pay attention to what's missing.

wilderness
12-23-2017, 09:21 AM
I do think the wheels are better, and that adds to the speed. But an aerodynamic sulky also reduces friction. Right?

Bob,
Some years back they began selling and using those wheels that track-straight (reduced slant) at retail of around $1,500 for two wheels.

However innovations have even improved on those.

pandy
12-23-2017, 09:34 AM
All I know is, slow is better. I remember when the Meadowlands interviewed some of the drivers, two of them, one was George Brennan, said that no one wanted to pull first over because the pacesetter was setting such a fast third quarter fraction. That's why no one pulls until late on the third turn at Yonkers, and no one goes three wide down the backstretch like they used to. The result is, most races are won by the horses that are close to the pace, usually the leader or the pocket horse, sometimes the first over horse. No outside posts, no closers.

wilderness
12-23-2017, 09:55 AM
Bob,
The breed itself has changed as well, and continues to change (even since the time of George's statement.)

Time as a handicapping tool is simply not as prevalent as it once was.
'Time' used to dictate 'Class', however that hasn't been so in more than 25-years.

The breed has simply changed and horses race faster and with longer brushes, making speed more dominant.
Attempting to figure the pace of a harness racing (in a T-Bred manner) is impossible, because it's nearly impossible to determine what horse, driver or bike are leaving.

pandy
12-23-2017, 10:14 AM
And that's part of the problem. On half mile and five eighth tracks in particular, you can't look at a race with a lot of front runners and play a closer. No matter how fast the pace is, often the pacesetter can set a brisk pace and hang on, or, the pocket horse gets up. It's hard to rally wide from off the pace. The fact that the drivers lean far back also hurts because the horses sitting in the rear are several lengths farther behind.

In thoroughbred racing, class and pace prevails. If the pace is hot, closer's win. In route races, class shows.

Years ago in harness racing, class handicapping was important. You wanted horses that could grind and finish. Now cheap speed wins much more often.