Norman McKnight

[bushwick]

I started researching the results after claim from McKnight during this Woodbine meet. Not a single person has won a race with claim from McKnight this year at Woodbine I find it hard to believe as many claimers as this guy runs nobody has won with a claim. Not next out mind you but ever! During meet. I have to be missing something.

[P Matties Jr]

I started researching the results after claim from McKnight during this Woodbine meet. Not a single person has won a race with claim from McKnight this year at Woodbine I find it hard to believe as many claimers as this guy runs nobody has won with a claim. Not next out mind you but ever! During meet. I have to be missing something.

Do you have a sample size? If it's significant, that's enough grounds for an investigation, hearing, whatever. Information that goes against common sense should be taken into consideration for cleaning this game up. The current model of testing doesn't work. This should be the path that should be taken....Even if his edge is by legal means, the industry should do everything in its power to stop things like this from happening. You can't have a fair claiming game in an environment like this.

[lamboguy]

some excellent points here and not trying to be specific to McKnight whom i have absolutely no idea about.

owning and training horses should be treated as a privilege and not as a right. limits need to be tested as to amounts of horses a trainer can train and an owner can own. that along with many other things can help to bring many more people into this game.

What Tim Ritvo is doing in Southern Cal is a pretty good first step that i believe in time will have a major bearing on the sport. the game needs more owners, trainers, and bettors. if its to remain a para-mutuel betting sport the tote needs more security and different rules.

[bushwick]

My numbers are based on me digging thru available information through equibase. I looked this up manually so there is room for error I count him running 229 horses available for a tag with 23 being claimed a handful were recently so their unable to run back. I find it odd so few claims off him and so little sucess.

[clicknow]

My numbers are based on me digging thru available information through equibase. I looked this up manually so there is room for error I count him running 229 horses available for a tag with 23 being claimed a handful were recently so their unable to run back. I find it odd so few claims off him and so little sucess.

Well if you want to look these up he won a few today ... all races were claiming except Sunny's Rainbow was an allowance:

Dan the Tin Man
Special Concoction
Reimagined
Sunny's Rainbow
Brews Tooney Toss

5 races out of 10 today at Woodbine

Dunno if any of them got claimed, didn't get that far.

[bushwick]

I am very well aware of the success of Mr. McKnight. It is the lack of success that horses that leave his care attain that is very odd.

[clicknow]

I am very well aware of the success of Mr. McKnight. It is the lack of success that horses that leave his care attain that is very odd.

I was just giving you the names of the horses so you could see if they get or got claimed so you could follow them.

Interesting project!

[Trips]

Well if you want to look these up he won a few today ... all races were claiming except Sunny's Rainbow was an allowance:

Dan the Tin Man
Special Concoction
Reimagined
Sunny's Rainbow
Brews Tooney Toss

5 races out of 10 today at Woodbine

Dunno if any of them got claimed, didn't get that far.

That second name is pretty funny considering the conversation.:lol:

[cj]

By far his most successful year ever, huge increase in number of wins and purse money while also increasing his win percentage from 28 to 32 over the last year. Last year had been his best year ever before this year.

Win percentage:

2006-2010: 16%
2011-2015: 20%
2016-2017: 31%

If someone could tip off the next time he enters a horse I'll look up all the horses claimed from him this year in Formulator.

[VigorsTheGrey]

I am very well aware of the success of Mr. McKnight. It is the lack of success that horses that leave his care attain that is very odd.

Any thoughts on why this may be the case...? That when horses leave his barn, they underperforming, or at least do not win next out, or was it that they quit winning entirely...?

[Racetrack Playa]

I was wondering how many of those claimed horses were maidens?

I think N. McKnight is going to Hot Springs this winter, 1st time Oaklawn
He trains a lot of Bruno Schickedanz horses.:coffee:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALutFpFrr1A

[HoofedInTheChest]

Another Woodbine trainer that i find suspicious is Denyse McClachrie, something smells with that barn, and i’m not referring to the horse poop.

[cj]

Another Woodbine trainer that i find suspicious is Denyse McClachrie, something smells with that barn, and i’m not referring to the horse poop.

2017 22%
2016 17%
2015 15%
2014 11%
2013 7%

Usually the best place to look first is the owners. I haven't checked this one, but many times owners drive the win percentages. The starts and earnings for this one have been trending up too.

[bushwick]

The 23 claimed horses failed to win a race the rest of the meeting.
I also agree about the McClatcherie outfit.
When they drop one it is finished!

[0o0o0]

Hey guys its 2018 the game is soooooo far changed.....

you don't handicap the horses or riders the barn, the track, or the weather, or the sire, or the surface, or rail, or the horoscope and definately don't handicap the tote boards anymore.

You handicap the trainers and only the trainers.

Look up the doping list and fines online.. read the fines they get...
The problem is... the fines and the suspensions are like 1/30th of their earnings per year... so they do it.. and move tracks, then return a year later.

Hate to be the one to tell ya.. but its 2018.. a year later on this thread and the man in question is actually 1% even better than last year.

[BCOURTNEY]

I started researching the results after claim from McKnight during this Woodbine meet. Not a single person has won a race with claim from McKnight this year at Woodbine I find it hard to believe as many claimers as this guy runs nobody has won with a claim. Not next out mind you but ever! During meet. I have to be missing something.

I think you are missing something. I queried all the starters at Woodbine where today's trainer isn't McKnight but McKnight was training the horse in the prior 10 starts (before the day in consideration). I got a count of 253 starters. (35 winners). The query was ran from '2017-06-02' through today.

So these are horses that he had under his care at some point. The win rate, place rate, show rate and associated prices were not interesting when compared with the entire meet totals.

[BCOURTNEY]

I think you are missing something. I queried all the starters at Woodbine where today's trainer isn't McKnight but McKnight was training the horse in the prior 10 starts (before the day in consideration). I got a count of 253 starters. (35 winners). The query was ran from '2017-06-02' through today.

So these are horses that he had under his care at some point. The win rate, place rate, show rate and associated prices were not interesting when compared with the entire meet totals.

Here's some of that data, again horses that have been under his care in the last 10 starts and came back as winners.

date/ race/ horsename/ trainer
09/26/2018 8 CUATTHEFINISHLINE CHARALAMBOUS JOHN
09/21/2018 4 WILLYS CASTLE CHARALAMBOUS JOHN
09/14/2018 8 ESCONDERA ATTARD SID C
08/22/2018 4 SPRINGDETTI RICHARDS LORNE
08/19/2018 2 DAN THE TIN MAN JOHNSTON ROBERT J W
08/06/2018 1 WILLYS CASTLE CHARALAMBOUS JOHN
07/28/2018 1 PURE PURITY BIAMONTE RALPH J
07/04/2018 7 KAPELLMEISTER ARMATA W V
06/15/2018 7 SASSY OMBRE PION SYLVAIN
06/02/2018 6 CONFIDENTIALITY MCCLACHRIE DENYSE
05/27/2018 5 GWENDOLINE H ENSOM JIM
12/10/2017 8 STORM RULER ATTARD SID C
12/03/2017 3 MALIBU WOOD NEUBAUER MICHAELA
12/02/2017 3 INGE RICHARDS LORNE
11/29/2017 6 BEARSWAY BAKER READE
11/25/2017 6 PURE PURITY COTEY DAVID
11/19/2017 9 FAIRY HILL OWENS STEVE
11/17/2017 7 BRIGHTER IDEAS MCCLACHRIE DENYSE
11/08/2017 2 ENCHANTED TALE LADOUCEUR HAROLD
11/04/2017 5 AFTER PARTY BRNJAS ASHLEE
10/22/2017 3 HALO LAELIA CASSE MARK E
10/22/2017 10 CONFIDENTIALITY BLACK IAN
10/20/2017 4 SUPREME COMMANDER ATTARD SID C
10/07/2017 6 BRIGHTER IDEAS MCCLACHRIE DENYSE
10/04/2017 8 STRING BIKINI BIAMONTE RALPH J
07/23/2017 8 GLAMANATION DOYLE MICHAEL J
07/21/2017 4 GOLDEN SPEAR VELLA DANIEL J
07/05/2017 6 REIMAGINED COLLUM NIALL
07/01/2017 3 STORM RULER ATTARD SID C
06/30/2017 1 PENNY STAMP SILVERA LAURIE
06/30/2017 5 GIZMO JONES TILLER ROBERT P
06/21/2017 3 DUBLIN DIVA DOYLE MICHAEL J
06/16/2017 6 FOREST BROTHER REGAN TIMOTHY
06/09/2017 3 CORRYVRECHAN LEBLANC JR JOHN P
06/07/2017 2 DAN THE TIN MAN GRIFFITH RICKY

[BCOURTNEY]

On the thought about super feed trainers at Woodbine, I have 7 identified and Mr. McKnight is not on that list, so there is my nickel (if it's worth that to you) on that topic.

On a side note I just realized this was a revived 2017 thread someone brought back from the dead, how silly of me to respond!

[ultracapper]

14% winners of a 253 piece sample. Seems in line. They're dropping off from his pace, but they're winning at more than an acceptable rate for the new trainers, generally speaking.

[alhattab]

I think you are missing something. I queried all the starters at Woodbine where today's trainer isn't McKnight but McKnight was training the horse in the prior 10 starts (before the day in consideration). I got a count of 253 starters. (35 winners). The query was ran from '2017-06-02' through today.

So these are horses that he had under his care at some point. The win rate, place rate, show rate and associated prices were not interesting when compared with the entire meet totals.

Thanks for the info. How do you get this data?

[WoxFan]

I think you are missing something. I queried all the starters at Woodbine where today's trainer isn't McKnight but McKnight was training the horse in the prior 10 starts (before the day in consideration). I got a count of 253 starters. (35 winners). The query was ran from '2017-06-02' through today.

So these are horses that he had under his care at some point. The win rate, place rate, show rate and associated prices were not interesting when compared with the entire meet totals.

Your query results are incorrect. Pure purity was claimed by mcknight from ralph biamonte on july 28 and is still with mcknight, entered last wed but was a vet scratch. Pure purity won his last start for biamonte but has not won under mcknight.

[ubercapper]

I just ran a quick query using Stats Race Lens:


Last 12 months, horses first after claimed from McKnight

41 Starts - 1-3-3 ROI -86%


Last 12 months, horses second after claimed from McKnight
36 Starts - 8-4-3 +76% ROI

[BCOURTNEY]

Thanks for the info. How do you get this data?

I have a database and ran a SQL query against it.

[BCOURTNEY]

I just ran a quick query using Stats Race Lens:


Last 12 months, horses first after claimed from McKnight

41 Starts - 1-3-3 ROI -86%


Last 12 months, horses second after claimed from McKnight
36 Starts - 8-4-3 +76% ROI

If that query was extended to third state after claim, forth start after claim, fifth after claim.. I went up to 10th after claim, wasn't suggestive of anything untoward.

[bobphilo]

This is all due to the permissive attitude of the racing commissions. I remember when the NYRA people were pondering a suspension against Dick Dutrow he actually made a public statement that if suspended he would take his stable elsewhere to race. Such a threat should have earned him a suspension on its own. Then even when he was suspended he just continued to run his operation through his assistant trainer from his living room phone. He finally got a multi-year suspension he is now serving.
What's just as disturbing is that several prominent trainers (I believe included Romans) testified at a hearing on his behalf to have his suspension shortened.

[jay68802]

I don't know any numbers on this, but it seems to be that winning with a horse after a claim from a few trainers is hard to do. I avoid horses that were previously trained by Broberg and Cox. Makes you wonder how come these trainers can win with the horse but as soon as the horse leaves the barn it is a problem. It couldn't be a change in hay and oats, could it?

[elhelmete]

Race 3 at Woodbine he saddled the winner and claimed 2 from the same race.:headbanger::headbanger::headbanger: