PA was right-the Truth is out there.

[JustMissed]

This snippet is from today's Drudgereport:

[Quote]James Wasser, who accompanied Kerry on that mission aboard patrol boat No. 44 and who supports Kerry's candidacy, said that while he believes they were "very, very close" to Cambodia, he did not think they entered Cambodia on that mission. Yet he added: "It is very hard to tell. There are no signs."

Another crewmate who said he was with Kerry on Christmas Eve, Steven Gardner -- who is a member of the veterans group opposing Kerry's candidacy -- said Kerry was 50 miles from Cambodia at the time. He accused Kerry of lying about being in Cambodia or by the border. "Never happened," Gardner said.

Separately, according to Meehan's statement, Kerry crossed into Cambodia on a covert mission to drop off special operations forces. In an interview, Meehan said there was no paperwork for such missions and he could not supply a date. That makes it hard to ascertain or confirm what happened. Kerry served on two swift boats, the No. 44 in December 1968 and January 1969, and the No. 94, from February to March 1969.

Michael Medeiros, who served aboard the No. 94 with Kerry and appeared with him at the Democratic National Convention, vividly recalled an occasion on which Kerry and the crew chased an enemy to the Cambodian border but did not go beyond the border. Yet Medeiros said he could not recall dropping off special forces in Cambodia or going inside Cambodia with Kerry. [EndQuote]

Even Kerry's own guys are now backing off Kerry's Christmas in Cambodia lie.

It is getting to the point that the best way to tell if John Kerry is lying is to see if his lips are moving.

JM

P.S. Thankfull the Swift Boat Vets came along. Otherwise no telling what kind of lies the DNC would be trying to spin.

[Derek2U]

Guys, A VERY GOOD article is in today's NY TIMES OP-ED page.
"TIME TO QUIT IRAQ (Sort Of)" --- a very interesting idea of
gamemenship. The writer, Edward Luttwak, provides a very
cool idea & reasons for withdrawing. Try to read it.

[ponyplayer]

Aaah yes, THE Times.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by ponyplayer
Aaah yes, THE Times.

Now we know why Derek is so screwed up..........He believes the times.........

[Lance]

Luttwak is a conservative. He has written for the neoconservative magazine "Commentary." I believe he was a defense advisor in the Reagan Administration. To disbelieve everyone who has written something in the NY Times OP/ED section is to disbelieve almost every conservative in the US, since almost all of them want to write there. It is prime real estate. I'm not saying Luttwak is correct. All I'm saying is that he should be judged based on what he wrote, not where he wrote it. Believe it or not, the PA off-topic section has a bad reputation in some quarters.

[schweitz]

Originally posted by Lance
Believe it or not, the PA off-topic section has a bad reputation in some quarters.

Please tell me it's not so---:D

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Lance
Luttwak is a conservative. He has written for the neoconservative magazine "Commentary." I believe he was a defense advisor in the Reagan Administration. To disbelieve everyone who has written something in the NY Times OP/ED section is to disbelieve almost every conservative in the US, since almost all of them want to write there. It is prime real estate. I'm not saying Luttwak is correct. All I'm saying is that he should be judged based on what he wrote, not where he wrote it. Believe it or not, the PA off-topic section has a bad reputation in some quarters.

name me "one quarter" interesting comment........is the pa off topic section being discussed publicly somewhere?

[Lance]

Ralph wrote:

"name me "one quarter" interesting comment........is the pa off topic section being discussed publicly somewhere?"

Yes, and there is no need to travel far. It was discussed in the handicapping or general section here several months ago. Someone started a string blasting it.

[Tom]

Kerry's diary conflicts witht he book he sanctioned on many topics. Yesterday, on his own website, his personal resume listed him as being chairman of some-such senate committe for 8 years. Only problem is that is was BOB Kerry, not JOHN Kerry. The offical Kerry-campaign reply was, "The names are very similar!"
Holy Somoli! Keery can't even rember who he is and what he did?
Man. I want this guy within 6 feet of the "football" at all times!
:eek:

[ponyplayer]

Kerry is just like that other phoney joseph biden who ran for president on plagarized speeches and a trumped up resume. I remember hearing a joke biden resume, I think it was on Letterman, listed him as winning a gold medal in swimming and/or diving in the olympics, being an astronaut, etc, etc...it was funny.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Lance
Yes, and there is no need to travel far. It was discussed in the handicapping or general section here several months ago. Someone started a string blasting it.

Thankfully, I was intelligent enough to segregate off topic from the rest of the board, thus the name...OFF TOPIC.

People who want to avoid it can easily avoid it. Problem solved.


Next.

[Secretariat]

Well, it's off to SAR.

As to the truth being out there. Yes it is JM. Thank goodness for the Freedom of Information Act. These SWV's can't even get their own story straight. It doesn't surprise me though that Bush would refuse to denounce them. He's always had problems geting his own stories straight.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5751284/

[Tom]

Yes, sec, there is a truth out there. And Kerry will go to any lenghts to hide it.
Consider this:
When John Kerry was in Viet Nam, he allegedly witness and took part in war crimes and atrocities. He reported this to Congress after he returned from his brief and relatively embarrassingly short tour of duty.
To date, Kerry has offered only vague innuendos and generalized comments about these crimes against humanity. Why has Kerry refused to offer specific details such as “Who committed these acts, When did they commit them, where did they commit them,

Who else witnessed them?”

The Swift Boat Vets have been consistently against John Kerry since the day he disgraced the uniform by calling their proud ranks murderers. Kerry, on the other hand, has gone from staunch opponent of the war to glorifying it for his current needs. It appears as if sometime between 1970 and 2004, the Viet Nam war gained some kind of legitimacy for JFK.

Now my question is, if John Kerry did indeed witness and partake in the commission of war crimes and atrocities during his excellent adventure in Nam, then who was with him?
If were the Swift boat vets, who were not on his boat, but were in the vicinity, and these are the vets that have, by Kerry’s recent comment, conspired against him and are telling lies, why does Kerry not reveal that it was indeed they who are the criminals and why does he not charge them with the atrocities and end this wrongful attack being made against him?

If it was not the Swift boat troops in the vicinity of Kerry’s boat, then who was it? Was there a rouge battalion in the area, roaming about the countryside committing acts of float-by shootings? Was this the proving grounds for the black helicopters?

Or was it the Swift boat vets that were on Kerry’s own boat?
Hmmm. Interesting thought. If Kerry were to have actually committed the crimes he claims he did, then how could he have done them unless it was from his own boat. And if he did do theses things while still on his own boat, then who but his own band of brothers could the other criminals he witness have been other than his own band of brothers?

And if it were indeed these vets who are the criminals, then would they not now have good reason to conspire with Kerry to cover up their crimes and try to silence the other Swift boat vets, many, many more in number than Kerry’s band, to protect themselves. Would it not behoove them to get Kerry elected at any cost, including lying, so that if or when the real truth is finally revealed about them, Kerry can pardon them?

It would appear to me that there is much more of a likelihood that a conspiracy exists between Kerry and his band than there is that one exists between many other vets who have been consistent in their criticisms of Kerry for 30+ years.
Kerry could end all this by simply telling the facts the he claims exist. But he will not.

Don’t you wonder why?
:confused:

[Secretariat]

Yes, Tom. The record is very well covered. Comments from vets at the Detroit winter soldier meeting to the atrocities at My Lai, My Khe, Son Thang, Task Force Baker, and the Tiger Force of the 1-327th Airborne Infantry.They're in Congressional Records. In testimony and hearings from those times.

It is interesting that even General David Shoup, USMC (Ret), who earned the Medal of Honor in WWII, publicly supported John Kerry in 1971 after that speech.

This doesn't even address Westmoreland's failed strategy of search-and-destroy which resulted in thousands of destroyed villages, tens of thousands of civilian casualties, hundreds of thousands of refugees, and drove the rural population of Vietnam into the arms of the Viet Cong. Kerry was only speaking the truth when he said that "We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them." Or the massive amounts of Agent Orange which killed thousands of people including affecting our own vets.

I suggest reading real books about Nam by Keith W. Nolan author of RIPCORD, OPERATION BUFFALO, SAPPERS IN THE WIRE, and THE MAGNIFICENT BASTARDS.

I'm not going to go into a large discourse of this Not Too Swift Group nonsense because it is funded by a major Bush contributor, Perry, and because some of these SWV's are upset because they think Kerry was impugning all vets. What nonsense. Surely,what happened at Auschwitz was not reflective of every German soldier. I also suggest you read all of Kerry's 1971 speech in whole, and not focus on the Limbaugh tidbits.

The demonzation of John McCain in 2000 to the attempts to do the same to Kerry this year show to what levels Repubs will go to win an election. One wonders what they may have said about George Washington. Probably would have made fun of his wooden teeth.

Again, this is not partisan, just despicable politics which will dramatically hurt Bush in the fall by association.

As to those Vietnam times, Jan Barry, states it succincntly. I just can't beleive that people could still stand to listen to Nixon's boy, O'Neill.

http://www.vvaw.org/commentary/?id=399

As one who lived through those times, I have spoke with many a vet who's none too proud of something he's done over there.

[PaceAdvantage]

Isn't there a way we can blame Bush for our failures in Vietnam?

Anyone? Sec? LJB? Bueller?


BTW Sec, be sure to stop by the PaceAdvantage gathering if you're at the Spa this weekend. We'd love to meet you in person. But no politics! Strictly horses this weekend!

Festival tent....look for the King in his Red Sox garb...

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Well, it's off to SAR.

As to the truth being out there. Yes it is JM. Thank goodness for the Freedom of Information Act. These SWV's can't even get their own story straight. It doesn't surprise me though that Bush would refuse to denounce them. He's always had problems geting his own stories straight.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5751284/

This was sent to me via e-mail:

MSNBC did not check the story out. Thurlow had already released a statement that coincided with what you see here. MSNBC got it wrong. Thurlow recv'd his citation for the medal after he was released from the Navy.

The citation is what details the "who, what, where, why and how" a medal was obtained. Now that Thurlow has signed the 180, the media (and anyone) can ruffle thru his documents....If they don't find a sitrep of Thurlow's that refers to a firefight that day, Kerry's camp is outed on this.


http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3543&sid=fa97f1971945c8c340d460f639ca8c62

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
This was sent to me via e-mail:

MSNBC did not check the story out. Thurlow had already released a statement that coincided with what you see here. MSNBC got it wrong. Thurlow recv'd his citation for the medal after he was released from the Navy.

The citation is what details the "who, what, where, why and how" a medal was obtained. Now that Thurlow has signed the 180, the media (and anyone) can ruffle thru his documents....If they don't find a sitrep of Thurlow's that refers to a firefight that day, Kerry's camp is outed on this.


http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3543&sid=fa97f1971945c8c340d460f639ca8c62

Do you really want to make Thurlow your spokesman? Here's a part of the MSNBC transcript from Chris Matthews (certainly no lib) on Hardball with Thurlow:

Thurlow on Hardball with Chris Mathews:

LARRY THURLOW, ANTI-KERRY SWIFT BOAT VETERAN: Mr. Matthews, the main reason I say that is because it became apparent early on that John Kerry had a master plan that went far beyond the service in the swift boats, and because of the fact that he was trying to engineer a record, so to speak, for himself, he was not a trustworthy member of a very tightly-knit unit that counted on each other at every second. And once it became apparent that he had this plan that kind of excluded what was required of us at certain times, it became apparent to me that you could not count on him.
……………..

MATTHEWS: Can you honestly tell me now, sir, that you could swear in open court that you know that John Kerry, when he was a lieutenant JG in the same theater you were in had some plan for winning medals? Do you know that for a fact?

THURLOW: OK. In other words, present evidence that he had this plan?

MATTHEWS: Yes.

THURLOW: Of course, I couldn‘t.

……………………….

THURLOW: I‘m saying that he had a plan that included not only being a war hero but getting an early out.

MATTHEWS: But you admit you have no tangible evidence.

THURLOW: I have my own personal observations.

MATTHEWS: Of what?

THURLOW: And you‘re right, it is not tangible evidence.

MATTHEWS: OK, so you don‘t.
………………

THURLOW: No, I‘m not—I‘m raising the campaign—the reason I‘ve raised this issue is because I want the American people to hear the truth that I know...

MATTHEWS: Right, but you‘re...

THURLOW: ... and then let them make a decision.

MATTHEWS: But isn‘t it fair to say you‘re doing this because John Kerry is a candidate for president?

THURLOW: Yes.

MATTHEWS: OK.
……………………

MATTHEWS: In other words, it‘s OK, for you, for a guy who didn‘t serve in Vietnam to attack a guy who did? That‘s all I want to know.

THURLOW: Well, I don‘t think a guy that didn‘t serve in Vietnam should attack some guy‘s record that did serve in Vietnam, if he has no personal knowledge of it.
………………….

MATTHEWS: The problem is, you haven‘t produced any personal knowledge about this plan you talked about, Mr. Thurlow, and that‘s the problem tonight.

THURLOW: No, what I—what I...

MATTHEWS: This plan has not been authenticated. That‘s the concern I have. Anyway, thanks for coming on.

[Secretariat]

Here's Max Clelland on Hardball:

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Former Georgia senator Max Cleland is a Vietnam veteran and a supporter of John Kerry for president.

Senator, why do you think John Kerry put up with this—he held fire for what, days now, if not weeks of these attacks on his war record. Why‘d he come back today?

MAX CLELAND (D-GA), FORMER U.S. SENATOR: Well, he came back today because he‘s a real man. He is an authentic American hero. And you can put up with this stuff only for so long, and then you go out there and say, Look, you know, you want to talk about Vietnam? You want to talk about war? You want to talk about injuries? Come on, George Bush. Let‘s duke this out right now.

I mean, George Bush is hiding behind this swift boat fantasy that is funded out of Texas by multi-millionaires that support George Bush. It‘s about George Bush. And he has set Vietnam veteran against Vietnam veteran here.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

CLELAND: That is not fun to watch. Now, our friend, John McCain, fellow Vietnam veteran, has said that this is dishonest and dishonorable and has called upon the president to disavow this ad.

But let‘s go directly to the couple of points just raised. First of all, you don‘t put yourself in for medals. Anywhere—Vietnam, World War II, Korea, whatever. You don‘t put yourself in for medals.

And secondly, it was Jim Rassmann who put John Kerry in for the Silver Star, not the Bronze Star with vida vise (ph). The award was downgraded by someone else. So John Kerry did not put himself in for a medal when he rescued Jim Rassmann. And secondly, the award was actually less than Jim Rassmann recommended.

Third, you don‘t go to war, at least I didn‘t, and I don‘t think John Kerry did or anybody on his crew, saying, Gee, this is a great day to get blown up. This is a terrific plan for my life. I‘m going to get blown up once. Then I‘ll get blown up twice. Then I‘ll get shot three times, and I‘m going to bring that shrapnel home so I can be a war hero. And then, finally, I‘m going to risk my life for some special forces officer in the drink that I don‘t even know.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

CLELAND: But he‘s a fellow American. I‘m going to risk my life for him. And then next, here‘s a B-40 rocket with a—held by a VC, and he‘s going to blow my boat up, and I‘m going to turn in to him and I‘m going to go out and kill him.

MATTHEWS: OK.

CLELAND: Now, that‘s John Kerry at war. And I think that this is incredible, what we‘re seeing here, but it‘s further trash from the George Bush campaign. They tried to trash John McCain, and he knows how that feels.

MATTHEWS: OK. Here‘s, by the way Senator, the new Kerry ad featuring James Rassman, the man the Senator saved.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I‘m John Kerry and I approved this message.

ANNOUNCER: The people attacking John Kerry‘s war record are funded by Bush‘s big money supporters. Listen to someone who was there, the man whose life he saved.

JAMES RASSMAN, VIETNAM VETERAN: It blew me off the boat. All these VietCon were shooting at me. I expected I would be shot. When he pulled me out of the river, he risked his life to save mine.

ANNOUNCER: The Navy documented John Kerry‘s heroism and awarded him the Bronze Star. Today, he still has shrapnel in his leg from his wounds in Vietnam.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well that was pretty powerful.

What do you think is driving these men to come out, like Mr. Thurlow? He seems like a reasonable guy. Why is he so driven to get Kerry out of this race?

CLELAND: I don‘t know. But the American people just saw the truth there. I mean, Jim Rassman was dodging bullets, going under the water, down to the bottom, holding his breath. Coming back up, getting shot at, going back down.

Meanwhile, John Kerry realized he was in the water. Turned the boat around, came back. Rassman tried to climb up the webbing, but he got stuck in it. And that‘s when John Kerry, wounded in the firefight, reached down and pulled him up and saved his life. And Rassman put him in the for the Silver Star. John Kerry won the Bronze Star with (INAUDIBLE) for valor.

And for anybody to try to trash that, or belittle that is beyond me.

MATTHEWS: Why is there so much venom from these 250 guys?

CLELAND: I don‘t know. You know, this is a great country, everybody has got a right to their opinion and to vote the way they want to vote. But why trash somebody‘s record?

MATTHEWS: Because they want to beat him.

CLELAND: Well, yes. But is this what George Bush is all about? That‘s his modus operandi normally. He went after John McCain, challenging his patriotism, me, John Kerry and others came to John McCain‘s defense. And I think there‘s a band of brothers gathering around John Kerry now...

MATTHEWS: Did he go after McCain‘s patriotism?

CLELAND: Yes. He questioned John McCain‘s patriotism in South Carolina. And mine in Georgia. Now that‘s what‘s going on here.

MATTHEWS: Let‘s talk about what‘s really going on right now in this country. We have people fighting in Iraq right now. We‘re going to lose by election day, based upon the way we‘re going, a thousand people will be killed over there. 6,500, a lot of amputees, a lot of really serious woundeds from which they won‘t come back from. They aren‘t just knicks. Why aren‘t we talking about that?

CLELAND: Because it is funded with his Republican cronies out of Texas. This kind of swift boat ad, which puts Vietnam veteran against Vietnam veterans. We ought to be talking about those kids that are losing arms and legs and eyes and full of shrapnel that are coming back from Iraq due to this president‘s failed policies and lack of strategy to win, or strategy to get out.

MATTHEWS: How does John Kerry, you want him to win. I can tell. How does John Kerry avoid this entanglement that these Republicans have got him in to those handlers around Bush, and the president himself, are geniuses in tying him into this little box he‘s been in the last week‘s. Where he‘s fighting about medals or ribbon, or whether it was this medal or that medal, or how deep did that first purple—I mean, he has got him in this defensive mode. I thought incumbents had to play defense?

CLELAND: Well, I think George Bush is putting a lot of flak out there. There that‘s what this is. It all goes back to him, because he cannot stand the real exposition of his record.

MATTHEWS: Why isn‘t the record being the issue?

CLELAND: I think it is. Every night on the evening news, we just saw this, we have turmoil and a mess in Iraq. And that‘s what John Kerry focused on today.

He also said that he won‘t let this distract him from talking about the real issues facing the I country, the lack of jobs in this country. The fact that the president has made abroad more enemies than friends. And we‘re in deep trouble in terms of healthcare. Those are the real issues. And that‘s what John Kerry is going to be talking about.

MATTHEWS: Have you noticed that there‘s a kind of a lingo that these guys, who don‘t like Kerry, keep talking about. They talk about the plan. You dismissed that as pretty ridiculous a minute ago.

CLELAND: My lord!

MATTHEWS: They keep using these terms.

CLELAND: I can‘t believe that anybody would have a plan to get wounded. Why? Especially 1, 2, 3 times. I mean, John Kerry is an authentic American hero, and people in this country know that. And that‘s why George Bush is losing and he never went and he doesn‘t know what it is like the feel the wound. And we need a commander in chief who does.

MATTHEWS: Do you think—I want to ask you the same question, because you‘re a Vietnam veteran, do you think it‘s all right for a president who didn‘t to go war to attack a guy who did on the issue of how he behaved in war?

CLELAND: Not this way. No. There‘s no credibility. If you‘ve not been there, you‘ve not walked in those moccasins, you haven‘t felt a wound in the sting of battle, don‘t criticize somebody who has.

MATTHEWS: Well, how is he doing it? He‘s doing it indirectly, you‘re saying.

CLELAND: Of course he‘s doing it indirectly. He always tries to run a notch above. But this is slime ball politics. And the American people see that.

MATTHEWS: Is this like Willie Horton?

CLELAND: Worse.

MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you very much, Senator Max Cleland. In just a moment. Note, when we requested a representative from the Bush campaign tonight to join us this evening, they did not want to come up against the people on the show.

[Tom]

Reality check here.
Kerry said he torched a village with his lighter. This is a war crime.
Others were with him. They are war criminals.
Who was there...KErry is obligated by law to reveal this.
When did this happen?
Where did this happen?
Do we really want this knd of man as president?
He had no courage to stop what what was happening, no courage to report it. He has ccvered up the truth for decades.

Kerry is a war criminal by his own admission and he must be held accountable. Stop the spin, and answer the questions. Let's try something different and talk about the messagem not the messengers.
Kerry....words mean things. Time to act like a potential leader and face the truth that YOU decided to make the basis of your credibiltiy.

[JustRalph]

Mathews and Max Cleland having a tea party.......... Ten or Twelve people watch that show huh?


Two of the biggest dolts on television that night........... impresses me.......... I think I will change my vote...........

[Tom]

The Kerry Issue Truck......
ALL ROADS HAVE TWO LANES...WHY SHOULDN'T I THEM BOTH?

[hcap]

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/9455159.
by Joe Galloway*

"Kerry released a stack of his military records - including after-action reports, citations for his medals, boat battle damage reports and his officer efficiency reports. These records - and the military records of at least one of his accusers - cast serious doubt on some of the more inflammatory charges raised by the group."


*Joe Galloway is the only reporter to have won a Bronze Star, so he knows what it takes to win one. Galloway was covering the Battle of the Ia Drang Valley, with the command group of 1/7th Cav regiment, with Lt. Col Harold Moore. The story is chronicled in the book and movie We Were Soldiers.

[hcap]

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2004/08/22/big_lies_for_bush?mode=PF

"IMAGINE IF supporters of Bill Clinton had tried in 1996 to besmirch the military record of his opponent, Bob Dole. After all, Dole was given a Purple Heart for a leg scratch probably caused, according to one biographer, when a hand grenade thrown by one of his own men bounced off a tree. And while the serious injuries Dole sustained later surely came from German fire, did the episode demonstrate heroism on Dole's part or a reckless move that ended up killing his radioman and endangering the sergeant who dragged Dole off the field?

The truth, according to many accounts, is that Dole fought with exceptional bravery and deserves the nation's gratitude. No one in 1996 questioned that record. Any such attack on behalf of Clinton, an admitted Vietnam draft dodger, would have been preposterous.

Yet amazingly, something quite similar is happening today as supporters of President Bush attack the Vietnam record of Senator John Kerry.

The situations are not completely parallel. Bush was not a draft dodger, but he certainly was a Vietnam avoider, having joined the Texas Air National Guard rather than serving in the regular military.

Kerry, on the other hand, may have done more than Dole to qualify as a genuine war hero. Although his tour in Vietnam was short, on at least two occasions he acted decisively and with great daring in combat, saving at least one man's life and earning both a Silver Star and a Bronze Star. That's not our account or Kerry's; it is drawn from eyewitnesses and the military citations themselves.

Yet a group of Vietnam veterans is questioning Kerry's record"



......While a few details and dates of Kerry's Vietnam record are open to question, most of the accusations are laughable. Kerry's record of service in Vietnam is clear and, one would think, unassailable. Given the contrast in their Vietnam-era records -- Bush even let his pilot's license lapse while still in the Guard -- Bush might be expected to change the subject."

[Tom]

Hcap wrote:
"...While a few details and dates of Kerry's Vietnam record are open to question, most of the accusations are laughable. Kerry's record of service in Vietnam is clear and, one would think, unassailable...."

....and totally unrelated to being president. Sec keeps sidestepping this so I will ask you...If his Viet Nam record was relevant to his being president, then why is it not relevent to his being a senator? And if it is, why doesn't he focus on his record in the senate?

And still, more Swiftboat vets are siding against KErry than for him. Is this a massive conspircay?

And finally, Kerry admitts to being a war criminal....how can you overlook that? Is that a sing of leadership?

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by hcap
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/9455159.
by Joe Galloway*

"Kerry released a stack of his military records - including after-action reports, citations for his medals, boat battle damage reports and his officer efficiency reports. These records - and the military records of at least one of his accusers - cast serious doubt on some of the more inflammatory charges raised by the group."


*Joe Galloway is the only reporter to have won a Bronze Star, so he knows what it takes to win one. Galloway was covering the Battle of the Ia Drang Valley, with the command group of 1/7th Cav regiment, with Lt. Col Harold Moore. The story is chronicled in the book and movie We Were Soldiers.

HCAP: since you are trying to convince us so much........why don't you tell us "what it takes to win one" do you even know how the medals are awarded?

[JustMissed]

Hey, don't be picking on Bob Dole. He spent almost three year in the damn hospital:

[Quote]Suddenly, while trying to assist the downed radio man, Dole was hit by Nazi machine gun fire in the upper right back and his right arm was so damaged that it was unrecognizable. Dole was immediately given morphine by an Army field medic to alleviate the pain, and his forehead was marked with an "M" in his own blood to alert medics. He was not expected to live.

Dole waited nine long hours on the Italian battlefield before he was finally taken to the Fifteenth Evacuation Hospital. After a brief stay in a field Army hospital in Italy, he was transported back to the United States and to Topeka's Winter General Army Hospital, where he continued his painful recovery and endured a kidney operation. Then, he was transferred to Percy Jones Army Medical Center in Michigan, where he survived his second brush with death -- blood clotting. He was a patient in that hospital along with Phillip A. Hart, whose name graces one of the U.S. Senate office buildings, where Bob Dole occupied an office.

Eventually, he returned to Percy Jones Army Medical Hospital for extensive therapy on his rebuilt arm. It took about three years and nine operations for Bob Dole to rehabilitate. He learned to strengthen his injured arm, and also had to learn how to write with his left hand, as the doctors could not rebuild the excessive damage done by the Nazi machine gun fire.

Bob Dole was twice decorated for heroic achievement, receiving two Purple Hearts for his injuries, and the Bronze Star Medal for his attempt to assist the downed radio man[EndQuote]

Hey, let's get off the Kerry in Vietnam business. You weren't there and neither was I. Let the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and the Band of Brothers sort it out and the truth will come out.

What we do know is that John Kerry by his own admission is a war criminal. He admitted and we have it on film that he was a party to cutting off ears, heads, arms etc. and raping and pilaging innocent people.

War criminal + crappy senate voting record + lies + flip flopping = enough for Bush 33 to kick his ass 11/2/04.

JM

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by JustMissed
He admitted and we have it on film that he was a party to cutting off ears, heads, arms etc. and raping and pilaging innocent people.

JM

Prove it.

The Swft Boat ad omits the first part of Kerry's 71 Senate speech in which he specifically realtes that these were stories told to him by Vietnam Vets at the Detroit Winter Solider Meeting. He has never admitted to what you say above. That is a complete lie, much as Bush did to McCain in SCarolina in 2000.

I wish Kerry's whole speech would be aired so people could hear what he did say, and not truncated phrases pasted together for political purposes.

It's despicable..

[Tom]

I heard tapes, in Kerry's own voice, admitting to commmitting atrocities in Nam. It was played on Hannity this week. He has also admitted to torching a village. Get real. He is a war criminal.
Or a liar.

[hcap]

JustRalph...
HCAP: since you are trying to convince us so much........why don't you tell us "what it takes to win one" do you even know how the medals are awarded?I am defending Kerry particularly within context of our preznits distinguished "service" record. I am not trying to convince all you knee jerking lemmings of anything else. There is enough evidence supporting Kerrys' willingness to personally engage the enemy, versus george w bushs' rather non- challant dismissal of his own record.

George Bush, 1990....

"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes."

The context of this argument was framed by our preznits' self defined moniker--- "war president", and the administrations incessant crowing about how the world is now safer, due to a huge strategic blunder; our invasion of Iraq, when the evidence says otherwise.



The Bronze Star Medal was established by Executive Order 9419, 4 February 1944 (superseded by Executive Order 11046, 24 August 1962).

The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the United States after 6 December 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

Hey Ralph, notice where it says..

distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/08/19/politics/campaign/20040820swift_graph.gif

[JustMissed]

Originally posted by Tom
I heard tapes, in Kerry's own voice, admitting to commmitting atrocities in Nam. It was played on Hannity this week. He has also admitted to torching a village. Get real. He is a war criminal.
Or a liar.

Thanks Tom, I don't have the time nor the patience to respond to Secretary's hysterics.

You hit the nail on the head. John Kerry is either a liar or a war criminal.

Let's see him talk(spin) his way out of this one. Ain't gonna happen.

JM
;)

[hcap]

There is not supposed to be any collusion between the official presidential campaigns and their respective 527's.

1-Former POW resigns from Bush campaign

A former POW resigned as a volunteer to President Bush's re-election campaign Saturday after it was learned that he appeared in an anti-John Kerry ad sponsored by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

The Bush campaign has claimed no connection with the group which has led an attack on Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate, questioning his war record in Vietnam and criticizing his testimony at a congressional hearing in 1971 in which Kerry alleged U.S. troops committed atrocities.

Retired Air Force Col. Ken Cordier, resigned as a member of the Bush campaign's veterans' steering committee after it was learned that he appeared with other former POWs in a 30-second ad, produced by the Swift Boat group, criticizing Kerry's congressional testimony.

"Col. Cordier did not inform the campaign of his involvement in the advertisement," the Bush campaign said in a statement. "Because of his involvement (with the group) Col. Cordier will no longer participate as a volunteer for Bush-Cheney '04."

2-Kerry press release (Excerpt):

Bush Campaign Busted Passing Out “Swift Boat Veterans for Bush” Flyer
Washington, DC - Despite constant denials, the Bush-Cheney campaign today was busted coordinating with the “Swift Boat Veterans for Bush” in their smear campaign against John Kerry. The following press release was issued this afternoon by the Florida Democratic Party. The evidence is attached.

“Bush Campaign Caught Promoting "Swift Boat Vets for Truth"

While National Campaign Denies Coordination, Campaign in Florida Promotes Rally

Tallahassee -- On the same day that the Bush-Cheney campaign repeatedly denied coordinating attacks with the anti-Kerry group "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth," the Bush-Cheney campaign in Florida was caught promoting a rally in Gainesville for the group.

A flyer being distributed at the Alachua County Republican party headquarters, which doubles as the Bush-Cheney campaign headquarters for the county, promotes a weekend rally sponsored by "Swift Boat Vets for Truth, Veterans for Bush, Alachua Bush/Cheney Committee," and others.

[JustRalph]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hcap
Hey Ralph, notice where it says..

[b]distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement

yeah........you understand that John Kerry wrote that right?

That is what is alleged........... let me tell you this one......... I have been told and seen other winners of these medals on TV this last week saying that John Kerry is the only one they ever heard of that helped write his own citation paperwork.........

On the Bush Comments.......... he made an informed choice. He didn't run off to Canada or duck the draft like Clinton. Everything he did out classes Clinton by a mile..........and Clinton is your Demo Hero......

[Pace Cap'n]

In our outfit we had a cook who, back in the world, was an accomplished pastry chef.

Boy, could he make cinnamon rolls.

Got the bronze star for it. For building morale.

[betchatoo]

This is a paper known for being staunchly Republican

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FEB. 28, 1969: ON THE DONG CUNG RIVER



`This is what I saw that day'

By William B. Rood
Chicago Tribune
Published August 22, 2004

There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago--three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.

One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.

For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn't deserve the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions.

Many of us wanted to put it all behind us--the rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry's service--even those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.

But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there.

Even though Kerry's own crew members have backed him, the attacks have continued, and in recent days Kerry has called me and others who were with him in those days, asking that we go public with our accounts.

I can't pretend those calls had no effect on me, but that is not why I am writing this. What matters most to me is that this is hurting crewmen who are not public figures and who deserved to be honored for what they did. My intent is to tell the story here and to never again talk publicly about it.

I was part of the operation that led to Kerry's Silver Star. I have no firsthand knowledge of the events that resulted in his winning the Purple Hearts or the Bronze Star.

But on Feb. 28, 1969, I was officer in charge of PCF-23, one of three swift boats--including Kerry's PCF-94 and Lt. j.g. Donald Droz's PCF-43--that carried Vietnamese regional and Popular Force troops and a Navy demolition team up the Dong Cung, a narrow tributary of the Bay Hap River, to conduct a sweep in the area.

The approach of the noisy 50-foot aluminum boats, each driven by two huge 12-cylinder diesels and loaded down with six crew members, troops and gear, was no secret.

Ambushes were a virtual certainty, and that day was no exception.

Instructions from Kerry

The difference was that Kerry, who had tactical command of that particular operation, had talked to Droz and me beforehand about not responding the way the boats usually did to an ambush.

We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into it, focusing the boats' twin .50-caliber machine guns on the attackers and beaching the boats. We told our crews about the plan.

The Viet Cong in the area had come to expect that the heavily loaded boats would lumber on past an ambush, firing at the entrenched attackers, beaching upstream and putting troops ashore to sweep back down on the ambush site. Often, they were long gone by the time the troops got there.

The first time we took fire--the usual rockets and automatic weapons--Kerry ordered a "turn 90" and the three boats roared in on the ambush. It worked. We routed the ambush, killing three of the attackers. The troops, led by an Army adviser, jumped off the boats and began a sweep, which killed another half dozen VC, wounded or captured others and found weapons, blast masks and other supplies used to stage ambushes.

Meanwhile, Kerry ordered our boat to head upstream with his, leaving Droz's boat at the first site.

It happened again, another ambush. And again, Kerry ordered the turn maneuver, and again it worked. As we headed for the riverbank, I remember seeing a loaded B-40 launcher pointed at the boats. It wasn't fired as two men jumped up from their spider holes.

We called Droz's boat up to assist us, and Kerry, followed by one member of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hooch--a thatched hut--maybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site. Some who were there that day recall the man being wounded as he ran. Neither I nor Jerry Leeds, our boat's leading petty officer with whom I've checked my recollection of all these events, recalls that, which is no surprise. Recollections of those who go through experiences like that frequently differ.

With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.

Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation.

John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry's Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased as a "teenager" in a "loincloth." I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the VC usually wore.

The man Kerry chased was not the "lone" attacker at that site, as O'Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.

Our initial reports of the day's action caused an immediate response from our task force headquarters in Cam Ranh Bay.

Congratulatory message

Known over radio circuits by the call sign "Latch," then-Capt. and now retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the task force commander, fired off a message congratulating the three swift boats, saying at one point that the tactic of charging the ambushes was a "shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy" and that it "may be the most efficacious method of dealing with small numbers of ambushers."

Hoffmann has become a leading critic of Kerry's and now says that what the boats did on that day demonstrated Kerry's inclination to be impulsive to a fault.

Our decision to use that tactic under the right circumstances was not impulsive but was the result of discussions well beforehand and a mutual agreement of all three boat officers.

It was also well within the aggressive tradition that was embraced by the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam. Months before that day in February, a fellow boat officer, Michael Bernique, was summoned to Saigon to explain to top Navy commanders why he had made an unauthorized run up the Giang Thanh River, which runs along the Vietnam-Cambodia border. Bernique, who speaks French fluently, had been told by a source in Ha Tien at the mouth of the river that a VC tax collector was operating upstream.

Ignoring the prohibition against it, Bernique and his crew went upstream and routed the VC, pursuing and killing several.

Instead of facing disciplinary action as he had expected, Bernique was given the Silver Star, and Zumwalt ordered other swifts, which had largely patrolled coastal waters, into the rivers.

The decision sent a clear message, underscored repeatedly by Hoffmann's congratulatory messages, that aggressive patrolling was expected and that well-timed, if unconventional, tactics like Bernique's were encouraged.

What we did on Feb. 28, 1969, was well in line with the tone set by our top commanders.

Zumwalt made that clear when he flew down to our base at An Thoi off the southern tip of Vietnam to pin the Silver Star on Kerry and assorted Bronze Stars and commendation medals on the rest of us.

Error in citation

My Bronze Star citation, signed by Zumwalt, praised the charge tactic we used that day, saying the VC were "caught completely off guard."

There's at least one mistake in that citation. It incorrectly identifies the river where the main action occurred, a reminder that such documents were often done in haste and sometimes authored for their signers by staffers. It's a cautionary note for those trying to piece it all together. There's no final authority on something that happened so long ago--not the documents and not even the strained recollections of those of us who were there.

But I know that what some people are saying now is wrong. While they mean to hurt Kerry, what they're saying impugns others who are not in the public eye.

Men like Larry Lee, who was on our bow with an M-60 machine gun as we charged the riverbank, Kenneth Martin, who was in the .50-caliber gun tub atop our boat, and Benjamin Cueva, our engineman, who was at our aft gun mount suppressing the fire from the opposite bank.

Wayne Langhoffer and the other crewmen on Droz's boat went through even worse on April 12, 1969, when they saw Droz killed in a brutal ambush that left PCF-43 an abandoned pile of wreckage on the banks of the Duong Keo River. That was just a few months after the birth of his only child, Tracy.

The survivors of all these events are scattered across the country now.

Jerry Leeds lives in a tiny Kansas town where he built and sold a successful printing business. He owns a beautiful home with a lawn that sweeps to the edge of a small lake, which he also owns. Every year, flights of purple martins return to the stately birdhouses on the tall poles in his back yard.

Cueva, recently retired, has raised three daughters and is beloved by his neighbors for all the years he spent keeping their cars running. Lee is a senior computer programmer in Kentucky, and Lamberson finished a second military career in the Army.

With the debate over that long-ago day in February, they're all living that war another time.

[hcap]

JustRalph That is what is alleged........... let me tell you this one......... I have been told and seen other winners of these medals on TV this last week saying that John Kerry is the only one they ever heard of that helped write his own citation paperwork...
From New York Daily News -

Sen. John Warner, an ex-Navy secretary under President Richard Nixon, particularly defended the process by which Kerry won his highest honor, the Silver Star.

"I'd stand by the process that awarded that medal, and I think we best acknowledge that his heroism did gain that recognition," Warner (R-Va.) told CNN's "Late Edition."

Kerry was awarded a Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Hearts as a Navy Swift boat commander in the Mekong Delta in February and March 1969.

"We did extraordinary, careful checking on that type of medal [the Silver Star], a very high one, when it goes through the secretary," Warner said. "I feel that he deserved it."

So Ralph, maybe Warner helped Kerry write his citation ?

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by hcap
So Ralph, maybe Warner helped Kerry write his citation ?


The fact that Kerry wrote his own.........was my point. I served with Silver star winners and they were great guys and good soldiers. I admired them. I don't admire John Kerry for reasons long past his Vietnam service. No matter what the facts are. Having 250 guys who served in the same unit come out against you in such a manner says something...........loudly! Take it for what it is worth..............

[hcap]

Ok, not being a fan of The Weakly Standard, I was caught by surprise by Andrew Ferguson who has an essay in the August 30 issue of the Weekly Standard.

".. in 2004, Republicans find themselves supporting a candidate, George W. Bush, with a slender and ambiguous military record against a man whose combat heroism has never (until now) been disputed. Further--and here we'll let slip a thinly disguised secret--Republicans are supporting a candidate that relatively few of them find personally or politically appealing. This is not the choice Republicans are supposed to be faced with. The 1990s were far better. In those days the Democrats did the proper thing, nominating a draft-dodger to run against George H.W. Bush, who was the youngest combat pilot in the Pacific theater in World War II, and then later, in 1996, against Bob Dole, who left a portion of his body on the beach at Anzio.

Republicans have no such luck this time, and so they scramble to reassure themselves that they nevertheless are doing the right thing, voting against a war hero. The simplest way to do this is to convince themselves that the war hero isn't really a war hero. If sufficient doubt about Kerry's record can be raised, we can vote for Bush without remorse. But the calculations are transparently desperate. Reading some of the anti-Kerry attacks over the last several weeks, you might conclude that this is the new conservative position: A veteran who volunteered for combat duty, spent four months under fire in Vietnam, and then exaggerated a bit so he could go home early is the inferior, morally and otherwise, of a man who had his father pull strings so he wouldn't have to go to Vietnam in the first place.

Needless to say, the proposition will be a hard sell in those dim and tiny reaches of the electorate where voters have yet to make up their minds. Indeed, it's far more likely that moderates and fence-sitters will be disgusted by the lengths to which partisans will go to discredit a rival. But this anti-Kerry campaign is not designed to win undecided votes. It's designed to reassure uneasy minds."


I think more and more conservatives are feeling they are "supporting a candidate that relatively few of them find personally or politically appealing".
You guys don't have to admit all at once, but probably it would do your hearts good to fess up.


;) :p

[Tom]

Hcap wrote:
"I think more and more conservatives are feeling they are "supporting a candidate that relatively few of them find personally or politically appealing".
You guys don't have to admit all at once, but probably it would do your hearts good to fess up."

What a joke! If anything, I am gaining respect for Bush. I have not agreed with many things he has done, but you cannot dispute his record-which I have listed many times and will not do so again today- but I think he has conducted himself as classy guy during Kerry's mud bath campaign.
You were a big mouth yuelling about the prison abuses at ABu Grade, or whatever, so let me ask you...is torching a civilian village better or worse that making a naked Iraqi wear panties on his head?
Kerry is a war criminal or a liar....by his own admission.
It has become clear to me that Kerry and all dems must be stopped befroe they destroy our nation. They are more dangerous that Al Qeada.

NBBB

[Secretariat]

Hcap,

I think the Bush worshippers get more and more entrenched as the fabrications are revealed. It doesn't matter to them that the men on Kerry's vote witnessed the event. It doesn't matter that Rasaman, a Republican, is upset that his account is being impugned. It doesn't matter that Warner or McCain denounce the ads. It doesn't matter if connections between the Bush campaign and the SWV's are revealed. It doesn't matter if other SWV's attest to the actions that day, Rood being only the latest to come forward. It doesn't matter that in 1996 Hoffman who wrote the citation for Kerry said he admired his service, just not his action for the VVAW.

All of this is just smoke screen, because their candidate has got nothing. Massive deficits, a quagmire in Iraq, an increase in worldwide terorism, the worst environmental record of any recent Prez. the first President to lose more jobs than created during his watch, a President who failed to fully fund his own No Child Left Behind, a President who resised the formation of a 911 commission, a Presdent who looked the other way while Enron gouged California, a President who pre-emptively went to war leadign to the deaths and wounding of thousands on deceptive intelligence. I watched McLaughlin, the Acting CIA Director testify to Armed Service Comitee on C-Span the other evening on replay. I wish everyone could have seen Levin's questioning. Basically, when asked why information from the CIA saying Hussein was not an imminent threat to the US was classified, he stated the information was presented to the adminstration, and they chose to retain it as claissfied or reveal that information. That the CIA does not declassify without the admisntration's approval.

In other words that CIA information regarding Hussein, not being an imminent threat to the US was withheld from the american Public. McLauglin could not explain why it remained classified and deferred that question to the adminstration.

Hcap, we will not convince these guys to vote for Kerry. Their minds are made up as ours are, but when they get behind biased political motivated speculative statements about a veteran whose crew supports his claims, then it is about as despicable as it gets, and to see that Florida Campaign Flyer by the Bush Campaign in Florida points the Bush complicity in the action. My god, does the man accept any accountability for what happens in his campaign. None. He is the most gutless President we have ever had.

[Tom]

Remember the Muppets TV show?
You two remind me of those two old guys sitting in the balconey, always arguing, never really a part of anything. ;)

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Tom
Remember the Muppets TV show?
You two remind me of those two old guys sitting in the balconey, always arguing, never really a part of anything. ;)

Perfect! Analogy

http://www.posternow.com/imagem/m/m1323.jpg

[BIG RED]

B I N G O Ralph

[hcap]

Sec,

You are absolutely correct. These guys are so locked into the Orwellian dogma that has issued from this administration, that NO, as they say, "fair and balanced" objective review of facts, will ever cause the slightest doubt of their glorious leader--King George.

Funny, but it almost seems that the original fable the "the emperors new clothes", was written yesterday, explicitly to describe modern times in the USA!

As Helen Thomas says, the worst president in recent times. I would add the least psychologicaly stable. I think the battle with alcholism, the probable adventures with cocaine, has left dubya with impaired mental abilities. He is to be congradulated for overcomming his addiction, but not at the countries expense. I suspect that he will be at a disadvantage at the debates and will loose to Kerry big time. Rove is probably prepping him now!! I'm afraid he sees his role as the "war president" as god-given and some element of his meglomania will be evident during the debates.

Oh, I forgot, here is Karen Hughs giving george some pointers to remember as the debates near.

http://www.celebritywonder.com/mp/1999_Muppets_from_Space/miss_piggy_gonzo_muppets_from_space_001.jpg

[hcap]

http://www.juancole.com/

" Bush's Superficial Wounds in the Vietnam Era

The debate that a handful of Texas multi-millionnaires close to the Bush family have cleverly manufactured over John Kerry's war record is absurd in every way. The charges that they have put some vets up to making against Kerry are false and can be demonstrated by the historical record to be false. Most of those making the charges have even flip-flopped, contradicting themselves. Or they weren't eyewitnesses and are just lying.

But to address the substance of this Big Lie is to risk falling into its logic. The true absurdity of the entire situation is easily appreciated when we consider that George W. Bush never showed any bravery at all at any point in his life. He has never lived in a war zone. If some of John Kerry's wounds were superficial, Bush received no wounds. (And, a piece of shrapnel in the forearm that caused only a minor wound would have killed had it hit an eye and gone into the brain; the shrapnel being in your body demonstrates you were in mortal danger and didn't absent yourself from it. That is the logic of the medal). Kerry saved a man's life while under fire. Bush did no such thing.

What was Bush doing with his youth? He was drinking. He was drinking like a fish, every night, into the wee hours. For decades. He gave no service to anyone, risked nothing, and did not even slack off efficiently. At what point he became addicted to cocaine, in addition to demon rum, is unclear.

The history of alcoholism and cocaine use is a key issue because it not only speaks to Bush's character as an addictive personality, but tells us something about his erratic and alarming actions as president. His explosive temper probably provoked the disastrous siege of Fallujah last spring, killing 600 Iraqis, most of them women and children, in revenge for the deaths of 4 civilian mercenaries, one of them a South African. (Newsweek reported that Bush commanded his cabinet, "Let heads roll!") That temper is only one problem. Bush has a sadistic streak. He clearly enjoyed, as governor, watching executions. His delight in killing people became a campaign issue in 2000 when he seemed, in one debate, to enjoy the prospect of executing wrong-doers a little too much. He has clearly gone on enjoying killing people on a large scale in Iraq. Cocaine use permanently affects the ability of the person to feel deep emotions like empathy. Two decades of pickling his nervous system in various highly toxic substances have left Bush damaged goods. That he managed to get on the wagon (though with that pretzel incident, you wonder how firmly) is laudable. But he suffers the severe effects of the aftermath, and we are all suffering along with him now, since he is the most powerful man in the world.

We all know by now that Bush did not even do his full service with the Texas Air National Guard, absenting himself to work on the Alabama senate campaign of Winton "Red" Blount. Whether he was actually AWOL during this stint is unclear. But it is clear that not only did Bush slack off on his National Guard service, but he also slacked off from his campaign work.

This little-noted interview with Blount's nephew Murph Archibald, which appeared on National Public Radio's "All Things Considered on March 30, 2004, gives a devastating insight into what it was like to have to suffer through Bush in that period."

continued....

[hcap]

" "All Things Considered (8:00 PM ET) - NPR

March 30, 2004 Tuesday

This campaign season, there have been questions about whether George W. Bush fulfilled his obligations to the National Guard as a young lieutenant in the early 1970s. For weeks, reporters scoured Alabama in search of pilots or anyone who might have remembered seeing Mr. Bush at the time he was serving in the National Guard there. There is one place in Alabama where Mr. Bush was present nearly every day: the headquarters in Montgomery of US Senate candidate Winton "Red" Blount. President Bush has always said that working for Blount was the reason he transferred to the Alabama Air National Guard. NPR's Wade Goodwyn has this report about Mr. Bush's time on that campaign.

WADE GOODWYN reporting:

In 1972, Baba Groom was a smart, funny young woman smack-dab in the middle of an exciting US Senate campaign. Groom was Republican Red Blount's scheduler, and in that job, she was the hub in the campaign wheel. Ask her about the handsome young man from Texas, and she remembers him 32 years later like it was yesterday.

Ms. BABA GROOM (Former Campaign Worker): He would wear khaki trousers and some old jacket. He was always ready to go out on the road. On the phone, you could hear his accent. It was a Texas accent. But he just melded with everybody.

GOODWYN: The candidate Mr. Bush was working for, Red Blount, had gotten rich in Alabama in the construction business. Prominent Southern Republicans were something of a rare breed in those days. Blount's support of the party led him to be appointed Richard Nixon's postmaster general. In Washington, Blount became friends and tennis partners with Mr. Bush's father, then Congressman Bush. That was how 26-year-old Lieutenant Bush came to Montgomery, at his father's urging . . . It was Mr. Bush's job to organize the Republican county chairpersons in the 67 Alabama counties. Back in 1972 in the Deep South, many rural counties didn't have much in the way of official Republican Party apparatus. But throughout Alabama, there were Republicans and Democrats who wanted to help Red Blount. It was the young Texan's job to find out what each county leader needed in the way of campaign supplies and get those supplies to them. Groom says this job helped Mr. Bush understand how even in a statewide Senate campaign, politics are local.

. . . Murph Archibald is Red Blount's nephew by marriage, and in 1972, he was coming off a 15-month tour in Vietnam in the infantry. Archibald says that in a campaign full of dedicated workers, Mr. Bush was not one of them.

Mr. MURPH ARCHIBALD (Nephew of Red Blount): Well, I was coming in early in the morning and leaving in mid-evenings. Ordinarily, George would come in around noon; he would ordinarily leave around 5:30 or 6:00 in the evening.

GOODWYN: Archibald says that two months before the election, in September of '72, Red Blount's campaign manager came to him and asked that he quietly take over Mr. Bush's job because the campaign materials were not getting out to the counties.

Mr. ARCHIBALD: George certainly didn't seem to have any concerns about my taking over this work with the campaign workers there. My overall impression was that he didn't seem as interested in the campaign as the other people who were working at the state headquarters.

GOODWYN: Murph Archibald says that at first, he didn't know that Mr. Bush was serving in the Air National Guard. After he found out from somebody else, Archibald attempted to talk to Mr. Bush about it. The president was a lieutenant and Archibald had been a lieutenant, too; he figured they had something to talk about.

Mr. ARCHIBALD: George didn't have any interest at all in talking about the military. In fact, when I broached the subject with him, he simply changed the subject. He wasn't unpleasant about it, but he just changed the subject and wouldn't talk about it.

GOODWYN: Far from Texas and Washington, DC, Mr. Bush enjoyed his freedom. He dated a beautiful young woman working on the campaign. He went out in the evenings and had a good time. In fact, he left the house he rented in such disrepair--with damage to the walls and a chandelier destroyed--that the Montgomery family who owned it still grumble about the unpaid repair bill. Archibald says Mr. Bush would come into the office and, in a friendly way, offer up stories about the drinking he'd done the night before, kind of as a conversation starter.

Mr. ARCHIBALD: People have different ways of starting the days in any office. They're going to talk about their kids, they're going to talk about football, they're going to talk about the weather. And this was simply his opening gambit; he would start talking about that he had been out late the night before drinking.

GOODWYN: Archibald says the frequency with which Mr. Bush discussed the subject was off-putting to him.

Mr. ARCHIBALD: I mean, at that time, I was 28; George would have been 25 or 26. And I thought it was really unusual that someone in their mid-20s would initiate conversations, particularly in the context of something as serious as a US senatorial campaign, by talking about their drinking the night before. I thought it unusual and, frankly, inappropriate.

GOODWYN: According to Archibald, Mr. Bush would also sometimes tell stories about his days at Yale in New Haven, and how whenever he got pulled over for erratic driving, he was let go after the officers discovered he was the grandson of a Connecticut US senator. Archibald, a middle-class Alabama boy--who, by the way, is now a registered Democrat--didn't like that story.

Mr. ARCHIBALD: He told us whenever he was stopped, as soon as the law enforcement found out that he was the grandson of Prescott Bush, they would let him go. And he would always laugh about that. "



Goodwyn dutifully notes that Baba Groom didn't remember George telling drunk stories. But that means nothing, since they weren't the sort of things guys like Bush told the "girls". He was trying to buddy with Archibald and impress him.

Again, decades of this sort of behavior do not leave a person untouched. Our world is in crisis and our Republic is in danger. It should not be left in the hands of a man who spent his life like this."

[Secretariat]

Hcap,

I had not heard that info on Bush before. Thanks.

[Tom]

NPR...welfare radio. Can't get enough support on its own to exist.
Needs to have tax dollars to keep the doors open. Good source.
And Miss Piggy? If you are going to use cut n paste instead of your own mind, at least come with something new...muppets was already tapped.
Creative slump?

[hcap]

No contest

Kerry:

Silver Star (Verified via DD214)
Bronze Star (Should have Bronze Combat "V" Device, Verified via DD214)
Purple Heart (Should have two Gold Star devices for subsequent awards, Verified via DD214)
Combat Action Ribbon (Verified via DD214)
Presidential Unit Citation (Verified via DD215, worn above left pocket per Navy regs)
Navy Unit Commendation (Verified via DD215)
National Defense Service Medal (Verified via DD214)
Vietnam Service Medal(Verified via DD214, w/four bronze star devices verified via DD215)
Republic of Vietnam Gallantry Cross Unit Citation (Verified via DD215)
Republic of Vietnam Civil Actions Unit Citation (Verified via DD215)
Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal (Verified via DD215)

Dubya:

Air Force Outstanding Unit Award (verified via photograph only)
Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (verified via photograph only)

Tom,

http://www.celebritywonder.com/mp/1999_Muppets_from_Space/miss_piggy_gonzo_muppets_from_space_001.jpg

Jr brought it up, I put it in context.....

"Oh, I forgot, here is Karen Hughs giving george some pointers to remember as the debates near."

What's' amatter, Gonzo too intelligent looking? Kinda has that deer frozen in the headlights look. Just wait till he debates Kerry.

Btw,

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002013026_webbush23.html

Navy swift boat officers Rich McCann, Jim Russell and Rich Baker said Kerry acted honorably and bravely and was well qualified to be the nation's commander in chief.

"He was the most aggressive officer in charge of swift boats," Baker said.

Additionally, crewmate Del Sandusky said at a news conference in Harrisburg, Pa., that he personally witnessed the battle action for which Kerry received Silver and Bronze stars and two of his three Purple Hearts.

"He deserved every one of his medals," Sandusky, a retired computer repairman who drove Kerry's boat for nearly three months.
Crewmate Sandusky said today, "I was there when he got wounded. I saw the blood. I don't care what Dole said."

[Tom]

Psssst..Hcap....you are cutting and pasting YOURSELF!
Simmer down, fella...you could have a coniption. LOL!
BTW....what medal did he get for torching a civilian village? How come you keep ignoring that fact? By his own admission, he flicked his Bic@.
And besides, also by his own admission, he gave back ALL those medals, so he doesn't really have them any more. Talk about flip flop, how can a guy be ashamed of his medals and give them back, then go around telling everyone what a hero he is for having them? Sickening, John Kerry, sickening .

[Lance]

Tom wrote:

"BTW....what medal did he get for torching a civilian village? How come you keep ignoring that fact? By his own admission, he flicked his Bic@.
And besides, also by his own admission, he gave back ALL those medals,"

Tom: If you document these "facts," you might get a reply.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Lance
Tom wrote:

"BTW....what medal did he get for torching a civilian village? How come you keep ignoring that fact? By his own admission, he flicked his Bic@.
And besides, also by his own admission, he gave back ALL those medals,"

Tom: If you document these "facts," you might get a reply.

Kerry admitted this - it is documented. Look it up yourself.

[Tom]

On second thought, I will do it for you.


http://www.cleveland.indymedia.org/print.php?id=9540

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A766-2004Jan8&notFound=true

[Lance]

I am to take your word for it? You are the man who called President Bush a "POS" and an "idiot."

[Lance]

Tom,

This is not documentation. It is worthless. Give me names, dates, and quotations in context.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Lance
Tom,

This is not documentation. It is worthless. Give me names, dates, and quotations in context.

You sure are lazy-look it up yourself. Kerry himself said it. That is who. You want more, you look for it. Frankly, I could care less what you believe. I will call anyone a POS I damn well please and if you don't like it, tough. Kerry said it. Beleive it or not.

[Tom]

Click on the Audio button for Kerry's own voice admitting to burning villages.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/weekend_sites/080204_080604/content/this_is_no_dirty_trick_2.guest.html


Name - John Kerry
Time -- 1971 MTP
Quotes - the actual audio clip.

This meets your criteria, unless, like Kerry, you are going to flip flop.
HAND

[Lance]

Tom,

Nonsense. This is not documentation. It is worthless. Give me names, dates, and quotations in context. Then we can discuss Kerry's statements in the context of the times. A clipped quotation loses the context. And don't forget to document your statement about Kerry throwing away all his medals.

[hcap]

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/08/images/23bush-medals-64.gif

What goes around comes around

"In this picture, George W. Bush is wearing an Air Force Outstanding Unit Award (AFOUA - the wing) and a Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (SAEMR).

Walt Starr is making a convincing case that Bush had no right to wear the AFOUA wing.

For the past month, the Swift Boat Vets have insisted Kerry did not legitimately earn his medals. Those assertions have all been discredited. Fairness now requires similar scrutiny to Bush's medals.

Wearing an unearned medal is certainly a "character" issue of the highest order.

In 1996, when Admiral Jeremy Boorda, Chief of US Naval Operations, was presented with evidence that he wore medals that he had not earned, he committed suicide in disgrace."

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/08/con04346.html

[hcap]

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-battleground04.html


Kerry pulling ahead in the battleground states

"Mr Kerry holds the top spot in 14 of 16. Up from 13 in the previous poll.

Still close but a definite trend. Maybe the swifties for lies can claim those electoral votes don't count, 'cause they were there and all those electors ain't got no eggchucating an' are dummasses anyway.

Duh!

[cj]

Originally posted by hcap

In 1996, when Admiral Jeremy Boorda, Chief of US Naval Operations, was presented with evidence that he wore medals that he had not earned, he committed suicide in disgrace."



What a despicable person you are! To even insinuate that was THE reason he committed suicide is just plain wrong. The guy had many more problems than wearing some ribbons he didn't earn.

It's like saying Chris Antley committed suicide because he was 2 pounds over his last ride on the track.

[cj]

As for the AFOUA, you know not what you speak of, again. It IS NOT the wing, dumbass. Its the ribbon on the left. Further, having been in 19 years, I can say this is one award that is very difficult to track. Often times it is awarded after you leave a unit and you don't even know about. Other times, it is awarded to a unit only to find out later you weren't there in the required time period. You are barking up the wrong tree on this one.

I would guarentee 50% of the people in the Air Force RIGHT NOW have either too many or not enough AFOUA on their uniform.

The reason, its not a very significant award. Noone really cares, there are far more important things to worry about. That's real world. You haven't seen me make a single bad post about Kerry's military service, so its not like I'm just defending Bush, I think its wrong to attack Kerry as well.

What I would attack are his actions after the war. Another flip flop for Kerry, because it was popular at the time.

[cj]

I have to run hcap,

I'll check back later and see how the DNC tells you to respond. I'm sure you'll have some obscure web site links to post and some taken out of context pasting here when I'm able to check back.

[JustRalph]

hey..... I had the same two "medals" as the President.........

the boorda thing is way out of line. I believe it was determined later that Boorda was entitled to wear those ribbons......... but anybody that kills themselves has more problems than just medals.........

Hcap .......you really are a low life......... guys like boorda have more class in their pinky than you have in your entire geneological existence..........you guys may share a mental defect of sort though.........

[Tom]

Originally posted by Lance
Tom,

Nonsense. This is not documentation. It is worthless. Give me names, dates, and quotations in context. Then we can discuss Kerry's statements in the context of the times. A clipped quotation loses the context. And don't forget to document your statement about Kerry throwing away all his medals.

Your ignorance is astounding. If you had any ambition, which you obviously do not, you could do the same search I did and find the entire transcript. I posted only the audio of Kerry's voice saying the words that are in there because I figured reading comprehenshion was a bit too advanced for you. I assumed even YOU would recognize Kerry's voice. There I go over-estimating people's abilities agian. I will work on that.