Who is this years NL MVP?

[chickenhead]

.

[sq764]

I think Rolen is just having an unbelievable year..

The Cardinals offense should be MVP this year

[cj]

I voted Pujols, but Rolen wouldn't get an argument from me.

Bet Phillies fans are glad they ran him out of town!

[chickenhead]

Originally posted by sq764
I think Rolen is just having an unbelievable year..

The Cardinals offense should be MVP this year

amazing that the Cardinals offense has generated only 6 more runs than the Giants offense.

I guess I must be the biggest homer of all time, but if the Giants make the playoffs I just don't see how it isn't Bonds.

I absolutely agree Rolen is having an unbeleivable year, so is Pujols, but Bonds is having one of the best, arguably the best, year at the plate in the history of the game.

[sq764]

Believe me, Philly fans are thrilled he was run out of town. He was one of the biggest crybabies you will ever see. He couldn't handle getting booed... poor baby..

St Louis is perfect for him, they never boo anyone.

Bonds is in it for the stats, he doesn't help his team win like Rolen or Pujols do.. If Bonds were getting his stats on a last place team, he wouldn't care..

[Valuist]

I voted for Rolen. He's as good defensively as he is w/the bat.

[chickenhead]

I'm not even sure how to respond to that SQ...what would you like to see Bonds do to help his team win that he is not already doing?

Play better defense? The guy is 40 years old for chrisakes. I cringe every time he has to run full speed, hoping he doesn't pull a hammy. He used to win gold gloves, not really reasonable to expect that anymore.

When Bonds retires we'll see how well the Giants fare, and whether he helped them to win or not.

[sq764]

Gee, maybe hustle once this year?

The guy has cost them so many times on defense after loafing after balls, it's a joke.. I have yet to see him ever run a ground ball out.. The lazy ass never hustles, it's sickening..

Watch Rolen play, even though he was a big baby, he hustles every single play, it's a joy to watch..

[chickenhead]

like I said, I don't want the guy running full speed. He can't help them at all sitting on the IR. I guess you can't understand that, but since you most likely root for him to get hurt, I understand your point of view. As for never running out a ground ball, ever? I guess you missed the first part of his career, at lead-off, I imagine he had at least one infield hit. :rolleyes:

I will absolutely grant you that at this point in their respective careers, Rolen is a better all around player than Bonds, that is obvious.

[sq764]

So, in essence, his sheer laziness HELPS the team, since it keeps him off the IR.. wow, interesting..

I didn't realize that hustling all year = disabled list..

Thanks for the news flash

[chickenhead]

intelligent play= over your head.

[sq764]

come on chicken, I have played more baseball games at 30 than you have in 10 lifetimes.. If you haven't played competitive baseball, your opinion on this subject loses a lot of weight..

[chickenhead]

that's like saying you have to be a jockey or trainer to be a good handicapper SQ......if your posts made more sense I would give them some weight, regardless of whether you played or not.

here's an interesting stat for you, runs per 27, it's a stat you may have heard of, the sabermaticians use it to calculate how many runs a whole team full of the same player would score.

Bonds 19.79
Rolen 9.21

now, looking at those numbers, you can't understand why it's best for Bonds to stay in the game at all costs...even if one or two balls drop in every once in a while....even if he doesn't run out a ground ball he has no chance of beating?

[sq764]

Just don't sit there and tell someone they don't understand how to play the game wisely.. The man is lazy, has been for years and year.. And that is precisely why he will never be considered one of the greatest players ever..

He's insanely talented and could have been better.. He would be able to run balls out if he wasn't so juiced up with roids.. You notice why he's hurt all the time with back injuries? wonder why??

I am not comparing Rolen and Bonds here.. If you would want your child to emulate Bonds, feel free, I feel sad for you, but feel free.

Personally, I want my son to emulate someone who busts their ass when they are between the white lines. I have zero respect for lazy players, it's disgusting to me.. Apparently it's acceptable to you.. To each his own.

[keilan]

Sq746 -- Since you have played all this “competitive baseball” can you provide a link where I can view your baseball stats.

It’s time to put-up or shut-up :)

[sq764]

I only played a few weeks in Rookie ball for Texas, so there were no game stats of record.. Only have college stats..

http://www.centennial.org/baseball/archive/1997_BSB_Stats.pdf

[sq764]

Keilan, what do my baseball stats have to do with any of this? My point was that for someone who's probably never played above t-ball to say that lazy play = intelligent play is just stupid.

And it just makes me sick to see people that actually admire sheer laziness.. Maybe I am being naive as to the expectations of some people, but I guess it's lower than I ever imagined for some..

I guess if a guy has talent, it makes up for wasted talent through laziness.. Maybe it's just me that thinks otherwise..

[Valuist]

Re: Bonds, those sabermatician numbers are deceptive, IMO, due to all those walks. There's certain situations when teams aren't going to walk him. But based on the sabermatician's numbers, he's just as likely to get walked with the bases loaded or runners on second and third. The biggest reason he's walked so much is because his supporting cast isn't real strong. If it was a team of 9 Bonds', they wouldn't be walking him all the time.

[chickenhead]

Bonds is as good at what we does..hit the baseball...as anyone I have ever seen at anything else in my life. Other people are on the same level, Lance Armstong on his bike, Carl Lewis on the track....MJ on the court.

What can I say SQ, I appreciate a lot of things about sports....I appreciated Michael Jordan for his absolute determination to WIN, I appreciated David Robinson for his class and dignity, I appreciated Barry Sanders for his absolutely magical abilities, I appreciated Joe Montana for the supreme confidence he engendered in everyone who rooted for him, I appreciated Bird for willing himself to be a great player....

Bonds is a phenomenom at the plate, I watch in awe. Sports is a lot of things, one of them , to me, is just watching in wonderment as someone absolutely perfects their craft. It is a wonderful thing.

Most everything you say about Bonds is true, I sorely wish he was perfect in all things. Michael Jordan was as close to a perfect team athlete as I am likely to see in my lifetime....Bonds is no Michael Jordan to be sure.....but I do take considerable pleasure in watching Bonds stand at the plate....for those few moments are very close to perfect and I appreciate them as such.

As for my kids, when I have them, I certainly hope they can find better role models than Bonds....but I also hope they get the pleasure of watching someone so talented.

[cj]

Originally posted by sq764
... And that is precisely why he will never be considered one of the greatest players ever..


I hate to break it to you, but he already is by nearly everyone but you.

So, Phillies fans, wallowing at 500, are glad Rolen is gone? Says a lot about the mentality of Phillies fans.

[keilan]

Sq – thanks for providing the link, decent enough stats.

Now can someone tell me how far this is away from the SHOW. Is it 10 miles away or about 10,000?

Keilan, what do my baseball stats have to do with any of this? My point was that for someone who's probably never played above t-ball to say that lazy play = intelligent play is just stupid.

Scott – just my observation.

Your comments on baseball sometime come across the Internet as someone who has been there and is speaking from their own personal experience. Not necessarily a bad thing but sometimes you’re a little over the top for me.

I’m also not a fan of Bonds or laziness, but I might hesitate to jump all over a fellow poster because he sees the good parts of someone I dislike.

[cj]

This is not to jump on Scott, but its a long, long, long way from the big show. That is low level college baseball.

[sq764]

Chickenhead, why do you want your kids to find a better role model than Bonds?


CJ, as usual, you have missed the mark with your off the wall comments about the Phillies.. Rolen's stats couldn't prevent 3 starting pitchers, their closer and 3 position players to be out part or most of the year.. But why would you mix facts in with your comments?

CJ, also, no, not everyone but me thinks he;s one of the greatest. (Unless, of course, you have personally spoken with 'everyone'.. And I am sure you have, or you wouldn't have made that statement)

Keilan, no I never made the 'Show'.. Probably could have never made it, but lost interest when I had the chance.. Do I regret it? Sometimes.. But after playing 60 games in college, 70 on a traveling team, then right to baseball from 7 am to 8 pm, I was so damn sick of baseball at that point..


I am not jumping over someone because he finds positives in someone.. The whole discussion was Most Valuable Player, that was all. Bond's laziness costs his teams runs and games at times. That is why someone like Rolen who hustles every play in every game, would be more valuable to their team.. That is all..

[sq764]

CJ, I know you are one of those blowhards that never was that good at any sport (except for ping pong, as you have mentioned), but I guess if the college division I played in had 11 players drafted is low,low,low college ball, who am I to argue with you?

And just because a high school teammate plays for the Texas Rangers right now, that certainly has nothing to do with never seeing what major league talent is..

Go in the playroom and hit some more homeruns on Xbox and try to get some perspective of what in the hell you are talking about.. Until then, you have little to offer in the way of insight..

[cj]

Regardless of injuries and everything else, having the best third baseman in you lineup could never be a bad thing. Moron Phillie fans booed Mike Schmidt!

I'm not sure if they taught reading at your college, but I said NEARLY everyone. Reading is fundamental!

[sq764]

What's with the insults? Moron philly fans? Baltimore fans booed Brooks Robinson, what is your point? They boo Tejada all the time and the dude is having a monster year..

Just cause your hometown team sucks year after year, don't take it out on other fans...

Have you spoken with NEARLY EVERYONE? Or is that just another comment that was based on pure spceculation? Seems to be your M.O....

[Bubbles]

I'm not sure about this, but I don't think CJ was referring to all Phillie fans about Mike Schmidt, just the ones that booed. Every city has them. Some booed Schmidt, some boo Tejada, some booed Jeter during his slump in April and May. Don't think it was as much of an insult as you took it to be.

[sq764]

Well CJ, ironically my wife and I are out the door now to go see the Phils try to beat Mr Clemens tonight.. Hopefully they will not disappoint.. I won't be booing either way...

[cj]

Originally posted by sq764
CJ, I know you are one of those blowhards that never was that good at any sport (except for ping pong, as you have mentioned), but I guess if the college division I played in had 11 players drafted is low,low,low college ball, who am I to argue with you?

And just because a high school teammate plays for the Texas Rangers right now, that certainly has nothing to do with never seeing what major league talent is..

Go in the playroom and hit some more homeruns on Xbox and try to get some perspective of what in the hell you are talking about.. Until then, you have little to offer in the way of insight..

I don't play video games. Playing at a weak college hardly qualifies you as an expert, so spare me. I would have played college ball as well, but my shoulder fell apart on me. I pitched several no hitters in my teen years, but I was overrused and just blew my arm up.

By the way, even giving you baseball, which is questionable, I have no doubt I am better at basketball, any position, football, any position on the field, tennis, golf, bowling and about anything else you could name. Hell, I'll look you up when I'm in the States just to prove it. Say what you want about me, but I am a very good athlete. Even at 37, I am the best player on every team I have played on in the Air Force, with the possible exception of basketball a few times, which I played in D1 college as a freshman. I had no pro aspirations, I wasn't that good, and left school because I was too immature to do the school work. I played against Lawrence Moten of the Bullets at Andrews AFB, head to head, and lit him up giving away four inches. (He did get the best of me the second game!)

You may want to try someone else there buddy. Name the game, I'll be there. You are barking up the wrong tree.

By the way, I've had a few teammates play in MLB and NFL, what the hell does that have to do with anything?

[cj]

The O's fans NEVER booed Brooks Robinson! You were probably in a diaper back then, so you wouldn't have a clue anyway. Baltimore treats its great players trememdously, we don't run them out of town. Ask Brooks, Johhny U, Cal, Boog, Eddie Murray, etc. All Baltimore fans ask for is a hard working, blue collar type of player.

I was of course not referring to all Phillies fans. They do have a higher percentage of idiot fans than your typical city though.

[chickenhead]

Originally posted by sq764
Chickenhead, why do you want your kids to find a better role model than Bonds?

I am not jumping over someone because he finds positives in someone.. The whole discussion was Most Valuable Player, that was all. Bond's laziness costs his teams runs and games at times. That is why someone like Rolen who hustles every play in every game, would be more valuable to their team.. That is all..

In response to your question, first off I guess I would like to be a suitable role model for my son, like my father and grandfather were for me. Second off there is a whole world of incredibly talented and accomplished people out there....while I love to watch sports, I hardly think someone who plays a game for millions of dollars per year exactly moves to the top of the list by that fact alone.

As to your second point about Rolen being more valuable to his team, it is all subjective of course....my belief is the Cardinals still possibly win their division without him, the Giants would be so far back in the rear view you couldn't see them without Bonds. If the Giants do not make the playoffs then no way Bonds should win it, but I am still holding hope they can not only make the playoffs, but run down the Dodgers in the process.

[chickenhead]

Lawrence Moten...he was one of my favorite college ballers.... That's pretty cool CJ.

[cj]

Originally posted by chickenhead
Lawrence Moten...he was one of my favorite college ballers.... That's pretty cool CJ.

Even in the Andrews gym he wore his socks mid thigh :D

[Valuist]

Something about racing must draw in all us frustrated former athletes. It seems especially true w/baseball. We aren't ready to give up competition. Either that or all that high school sports was just practice for the big time (race track betting):D

[betchatoo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cjmilkowski
[B]The O's fans NEVER booed Brooks Robinson! You were probably in a diaper back then, so you wouldn't have a clue anyway. Baltimore treats its great players trememdously, we don't run them out of town. Ask Brooks, Johhny U, Cal, Boog, Eddie Murray, etc. All Baltimore fans ask for is a hard working, blue collar type of player.

I used to say this about Cub fans, too. But this year they are actually booing Sammy Sosa. I'm aware that he has an ego problem and his skills are diminishing (not to mention the corked bat incident), but I never imagined he'd be booed in Wrigley. I guess the high expectations this year have changed the makeup of the fans. Me, I've been bleeding Cubby blue for more than 50 years and unfortunately don't see the bleeding stopping anytime soon. at least they consistently find new ways to frustrate us.

As for MVP either Rolen or Pujols would be a great choice (and, of course I hate the Cards). The way they've led their team, maybe they should be co-MVPs

[chickenhead]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski


You may want to try someone else there buddy. Name the game, I'll be there. You are barking up the wrong tree.



I am undefeated badminton player......I'd thrash you and SQ and both!

No seriously SQ, (well, I was serious, I used to rock at badminton), I wasn't trying to demean you or your college career in any way with my =over the head comment....it was sarcasm at your refusal to see my point...but that's ok. Since you did ask, yes I did play TBall, and little league and babe ruth and one year high school. I stopped because I was very good at basketball and track and field, and really not very good at baseball....anyway, none of that really has anything to do with this discussion, but you called me out.

If there is one thing I know...having grown up with a lot of very talented and accomplished athletes in my family....it is that former athletes are as full of B.S. as everyone else. :D

[sq764]

CJ, you just confirmed my point - you are a blowhard who wasn't good at any organized sports.. It's ok to be frustrated and insult everyone's abilities and accomplishments.. That's the true sign of a wanna be.. It's ok, I still respect you as a handicapper, it's just that your insults to people that have been more successful at some things than you really make you look sad..

That would be great if you looked me up when you get to the states. I am sure you are the very greatest at every sport, as you have told us all, but I guess I'll tempt my humiliation anyway..

[sq764]

CJ, to be more succinct to your vast talent in all the sports you play:

Baseball - please..

basketball - you win, I was never that good.. never cared to be either..

football - this could be fun..

tennis - I thought we were talking about sports

golf - you win, I have golfed once in the past 4 years

bowling - Let's go $100 a game.. I will fly to Belgium if you agree to this one...

[cj]

Next thing you know, your Dad can beat up my Dad, and so on. Its pretty pointless. The main thing is you try come across like some genius who knows more about baseball than anyone else because you played some small college baseball. It just doesn't work that way in real life.

We've had this discussion before, but tennis is more of a sport than baseball ever will be. Guys standing around for 2:58 of every 3:00 doesn't really impress me too much.

As for bowling, we'd probably break even unless you are at least a 215 bowler.

By the way, how is playing D1 b-ball (Loyola College) being a blow hard? Its certainly a higher level than what you were playing, eh?

[kingfin66]

Jeez, you guys are going at it pretty good in here. I vote for Rolen as MVP with Pujols a close second. Bonds is having a great year as well, but I give Rolen the edge because of his defense.

Someone (Bubbles?) mentioned that only some Phillies fans booed Mr. Schmidt. Actually, the fans were merciless to their future Hall of Famer. It got so bad that one time Schmidt came out to take infield wearing a wig and sunglasses (true story). The fans loved it and gave him a (very) brief reprieve.

Scott and CJ,

What can I say? Two guys that like to argue all things sports. It's funny, but I actually umpired three years in the minors and people always think that I'm some kind of expert just because of that. Playing the game at a high level - college baseball is a fairly fast game - gives people a different perspective when watching a game. In any case, keep the banter going as it is pretty entertaining. Maybe someday there can be a Scott v. CJ Super Bow. It might actually make for a unique betting opporunity

[Valuist]

Kingfin is right. They were merciless to Schmidt. They also booed when the Eagles drafted Donovan McNabb instead of Ricky Williams. And they rode Scott Rolen out of town. I don't think they are the smartest sports fans in the country.

[sq764]

CJ, if you ever pitched (which you say you did), you know damn well you do not standng around for 2:58 of 3:00 during a game..

Pitching 9 innings in 95 degree heat is as challenging as most any other feat in sports... Playing centerfield and waiting for a flyball is another story..

[sq764]

And my dad beating up your dad, blah blah?? You were the one who said you were 'the best player on every team I play for in the Air Force'.. Well, congratulations, oh sultan of the intermural teams!!

I am certainly no genius on baseball, as you say, I was simply pointing out that the more you play and the bigger range of talented players you play against, gives you a better persective than someone who has only watched on tv..

I can tell you are a very competitive person and you get mighty testy when someone calls you to the table.. So are a lot of people though, and a lot of people think they are great at sports..

(What I cannot figure out though is if you shoulder blew apart, how did you continue to flourish in football, bowling, tennis and basketball? Let alone pass a military physical??)

[sq764]

Valuist, when Jeter was hitting .171, they were booing him on every at-bat.. This is the same guy who has led them to how many World Series? And he's the 'ultimate gamer'?

How bout them fans :-)

[chickenhead]

Originally posted by Valuist
Something about racing must draw in all us frustrated former athletes. It seems especially true w/baseball. We aren't ready to give up competition. Either that or all that high school sports was just practice for the big time (race track betting):D

I think a pretty healthy ego is required to believe you can beat the races.....could be athletics is where a lot of horseplayers got that confidence, as well as the ability to continue practice of the craft in the face of failure.

Either that, or we're just a bunch of blowhards chasing glory in a new venue..... :D

[sq764]

Quite honestly, I think horseracing is simply another venue where we can drink beer, cuss, hang with the guys and scratch ourselves.. All the while, not having women bug us.. It's like baseball with out the gloves and bats..

[cj]

Originally posted by sq764

(What I cannot figure out though is if you shoulder blew apart, how did you continue to flourish in football, bowling, tennis and basketball? Let alone pass a military physical??)

I had serious surgery a few years ago. I have a nice long 6 inch scar from the front of my shoulder to my back. I had a bunch of bone spurs in my shoulder which ripped a lot stuff up inside. I also had to have a large section of my collar bone removed because it had deteriorated.

It didn't really bother me bowling, occasionally in football, never in basketball, and until lately, I had a below average serve in tennis. I actually never played tennis until I was already in the Air Force, same as bowling, table tennis, raquetball, golf, and many others. Before then I was a city boy who played three things:` baseball, football, and basketball.

Baseball was impossible though. I couldn't last an inning by the time I was 17. Football would hurt if I really tried to crank up a throw, but it was doable when needed. There was no way to do it in baseball.

I'll never know what could have been. At 15, I was 5'4 and 110 pounds and consistently threw in the low 80s. By the time I turned 17, I was 5'11 (now 6'2), but the arm wouldn't cooperate anymore.

My military physical consisted of bench pressing like 100 pounds or something like that and a bunch of lab tests and probably xrays if I remember right. MRIs weren't too common in 1985. I certainly didn't advertise that my shoulder prevented me from pitching, it wasn't very important at the time.

Hope that answers your questions.

[cj]

Originally posted by sq764
CJ, if you ever pitched (which you say you did), you know damn well you do not standng around for 2:58 of 3:00 during a game..

Pitching 9 innings in 95 degree heat is as challenging as most any other feat in sports... Playing centerfield and waiting for a flyball is another story..

No doubt about that. Catching, which I also did, was even tougher, at least for me. Its the other 7 positions I was talking about.

[sq764]

Everytiime I think you and I are on different planets, we end up agreeing on something.. It's funny and frustrating at the same time :-)

(I am still up for the Decathlon we propose, but it will have to be revised for us old timers..)

[Tee]

Where do I sign up for this multi sport challenge?:)

[cj]

When you leave Wyoming :)

[Tee]

You guys don't want any part of me at a lower elevation:D

[sq764]

I think it should include all facets of a true horseplayer/sports/man life..

We should include actual sport, as well as a handicapping tournament, and lastly, a beer drinking contest..

We want a well rounded (excuse the pun) all-sport champion, not just some jock :-)

[chickenhead]

20 games month of august
AB 49
R 22
H 22
2B 5
3B 1
HR 8
RBI 18
BB 29
SO 2
SB 2
AVG 0.449
OBP 0.646
SLG _1.082_


this guy is costing us so many games with his laziness....I really wish they would sit him out down til he learns his lesson....it's just disgusting to watch.
:D

[sq764]

What has laziness got to do with hits or homeruns? That post just makes zero sense.. How surprising..

[chickenhead]

you don't believe hard work translates into success?

No wonder you didn't make it.

[sq764]

Yeah, I didn't make it because I didn't work hard. Not even worth a comment to your idiocy.

[chickenhead]

I'm just trying to figure you out, do you hate these guys for their lack of humility or what?

I know you hate Bonds, you said all kinds of nasty things about Muhammed Ali...I'm just trying to figure out where all this comes from....

do these guys just make it look too easy? they have too much talent for your tastes?

[sq764]

If you're going to comment, pay attention..

First off, I don't hate any of them.. I said Bonds was lazy, he is lazy, there's nothing more to say about it.

I said one thing about Muhammed Ali, ONE.. He was a pussy draft dodger.. He dodged the draft, nothing more to say about it.

I have met hundreds of guys like you, you have never been successful at anything, let alone sports. It makes you feel better to provoke people that have accomplished more than you. If that makes you feel less of a loser, then go nuts my man..

I truly feel sad for you, but someday you may be good at something.. Until then, here we are..

[chickenhead]

your analysis is spot on SQ, for you...not me. I appreciate success, I don't look to tear it down. That is precisely what this whole argument is about.

As for the rest of your post....you really need to get your ego in check.....you have a very warped view of the world and your place in it.

[sq764]

I do appreciate your comments, they do make me laugh, and humor keeps us healthy.. You’re young, you have a lot of ideas about the world, but you have quite a lot to learn.

I have worked hard my whole life, so yes, I do know that working hard does lead to success. If I never worked hard I wouldn’t have a nice job, a wife, a family (well on or around December 12th the child part will come along), a house, almost through my Masters, and fortunate enough to have the time and the disposable income to play horses..

That’s not being egotistical or anything of the sort, it’s probably being thankful more than anything.. Thankful for having the opportunities I have and for working hard to take advantage of them.

[chickenhead]

hey SQ, I think that is great.

[sq764]

Point being that I respect these guys for having tremendous talent (including Bonds).. What makes me sick is when you see some of them wasting it, whether it be through drugs, laziness or just not working hard..

Success to me can be measured many ways.. 700 homeruns is fantastic! But so is raising your child to be successful. A 200 point season in hockey is phenomenal, but so is working hard to get your diploma or degree for those who it does not come easy to.

Hate to sound sentimental, but I guess sometimes I think sports figures are put up WAY too high on a pedestal.. Knowing that, to see them waste talent is very frustrating.. Maybe that is where my disgust for certain athletes comes from..

[chickenhead]

hey, you're not going to get me to disagree with you there...you echo some of the same things I said earlier.

Two things though, one, you've got to give them their just dues....and recognize their achievements. I can appreciate hard work, and I can appreciate off the charts talent.

Second, and this may be the point we disagree upon, but guys like Bonds, as lazy as he might appear to be...I'm sorry, but you don't reach that level without thousands and thousands of hours of hard work....talent is not enough. He wasn't born able to hit the ball like he does...he works at it like everyone else. That's all I'm saying. He has gotten better every year he's been in the league. A lot of guys that rely only on talent, they never get any better....they stay about the same...

[sq764]

There are plenty of professional athletes that have gotten where they are simple on sheer talent.. They certainly don't become superstars, but there are plenty of immensley talented, lazy professionals out there..

(There's another reason why he's gotten better every year, but we won't get into that discussion)