Another photo finish controversy at Del Mar

[cj]

"Horse racing has the best technology in the world".

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

https://twitter.com/TVG/status/929470402031534080

[jay68802]

I think they should increase take out, this has been proven to take care of all problems. They should not invest a little money to accurately time races and improve photo finish technology. That would be a waste of money.:rolleyes:

[jocko699]

"Horse racing has the best technology in the world".

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

https://twitter.com/TVG/status/929470402031534080


CJ,

Completely agree. The best technology? :pound::pound::pound:
I swore the longshot won that race during the actual running BTW.

[picojim]

https://www.dmtc.com/data/racing/photo-finishes/900.jpg

[Dave Schwartz]

A friend of mine, Ken Klein (who passed about 15 months ago), taught me a cool shortcut to telling who the winner is.

He said, "The shadow has no camera angle."

BTW, this works really well when eyeballing a race at the wire.



Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Quesmark]

A friend of mine, Ken Klein (who passed about 15 months ago), taught me a cool shortcut to telling who the winner is.

He said, "The shadow has no camera angle."

BTW, this works really well when eyeballing a race at the wire.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz
Only on a sunny day...

[jocko699]

A friend of mine, Ken Klein (who passed about 15 months ago), taught me a cool shortcut to telling who the winner is.

He said, "The shadow has no camera angle."

BTW, this works really well when eyeballing a race at the wire.



Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Good advice!!!!!

[Augenj]

It looks like a head-bobbing photo with the 8 head "back and up" and the 6 head "down and low". Wouldn't the 8 cast a longer shadow since his head is higher than the 6? Much like a taller building casting a longer shadow than its shorter neighbor? This is assuming that they both are about the same height.

[Franco Santiago]

Honestly.

Shadows????

Come on.

If shadows told the truth, shadows would be used instead of actual images.

A myth.

[Dave Schwartz]

Honestly.

Shadows????

Come on.

If shadows told the truth, shadows would be used instead of actual images.

A myth.

Look at the shadow in the photo.

[TonyK@HSH]

Kudos to Mr Chaney for speaking on the subject. I know that in many jurisdictions stewards refuse to comment on race related items. I do appreciate that the Cal Stewards are accessible.

[JustRalph]

The shadow always has an angle. It’s a different one than the camera, but it has angle, just like everything under the sun. They are all relative to the center point of the Light source, in this case the sun.

The distance between the two horses is another factor, no matter how small a difference, there is a difference. For the "shadow has no angle" theory to be true both noses would have to occupy the exact same space relative to the Light source. This includes distance from the ground too.... They cannot physically do that, so the distance between the horses provides just one factor that changes the angle of the shadow and their height above the ground causes another factor. There are others also.....you could break this down into a million reasons including cloud density. But you don’t......you agree to accept the track camera ......no matter how shitty the equipment is

[AltonKelsey]

The shadows are AHEAD of the horses, so because of the way the photo is taken (slit) , they are shot FIRST. By the time the horses themselves hit the wire , some time has passed and their heads have moved.

[VigorsTheGrey]

In the shadow of the 8 horse in foreground: why is the shadow of the rider's whip curved but straight in the jockeys hand? Also, why are the horses' ears at a lower angle than the horse...compared to the other horses' shadow that shows the ears at the correct angle...?

Also, the snout and the neck of the inside shadow is skinny and dog-like while the outer shadow has a fat neck and weird head...

[RunForTheRoses]

I think the 6 benefited by the bob and well...it is where the turf meets the surf

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/jimmy-durante-us-singer-actor-and-comedian-wearing-a-grey-jacket-picture-id120355334

[illinoisbred]

I wouldn't trust the shadows. This looked like a race between a cow(the #8) and a pit bull terrier (the #6) by the shadows.

[Tom]

Look at the shadow in the photo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMlRpN8ANrU

[rastajenk]

Dead Heat...no controversy. :coffee:

[thaskalos]

Two winners are better than one. :headbanger:

[upthecreek]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/more/la-sp-horse-racing-newsletter-20171112-htmlstory.html?utm_source=Horse+Racing&utm_campaign=8482a58324-HORSE_RACING_NEWSLETTER&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f97a24dcb5-8482a58324-82323621

[dilanesp]

https://www.dmtc.com/data/racing/photo-finishes/900.jpg

Looks like a DH to me.

[Augenj]

Looks like a DH to me.
Yes, but the 8's shadow won. :D

[098poi]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/more/la-sp-horse-racing-newsletter-20171112-htmlstory.html?utm_source=Horse+Racing&utm_campaign=8482a58324-HORSE_RACING_NEWSLETTER&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f97a24dcb5-8482a58324-82323621

Quote from the article. Good one.


Hopefully there was a Walgreens or CVS with express Saturday service nearby to take the film to. You know, right next to the Blockbuster with the newspaper honor boxes in front.

[cj]

Lets go to Trakus for their take on the dead heat.

[ronsmac]

Lets go to Trakus for their take on the dead heat.

I still don't understand how trakus can be the official timer and not just a supplement for additional information.

[cj]

I still don't understand how trakus can be the official timer and not just a supplement for additional information.

Scary, isn't it?

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/929800397702565888

[SkunkApe]

https://ibb.co/jOi5oG

The shadow thing is silly.

In this image, Gunscrubber and Budlight are in a photo finish. Who won?

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/929807453272686592

[Franco Santiago]

https://ibb.co/jOi5oG

The shadow thing is silly.

In this image, Gunscrubber and Budlight are in a photo finish. Who won?

It is, but how about this: we break ties with the shadow!! No more dead heats. :D

[Robert Fischer]

https://ibb.co/jOi5oG

The shadow thing is silly.

In this image, Gunscrubber and Budlight are in a photo finish. Who won?


Gunscrubber is a clear bet-back

[Road Kill]

https://ibb.co/jOi5oG

The shadow thing is silly.

In this image, Gunscrubber and Budlight are in a photo finish. Who won?

:D

[jay68802]

https://ibb.co/jOi5oG

The shadow thing is silly.

In this image, Gunscrubber and Budlight are in a photo finish. Who won?

If the jockey on Bud Bottle would have set a more sensible pace, he would have won.

[SkunkApe]

It looks like a head-bobbing photo with the 8 head "back and up" and the 6 head "down and low". Wouldn't the 8 cast a longer shadow since his head is higher than the 6? Much like a taller building casting a longer shadow than its shorter neighbor? This is assuming that they both are about the same height.

Correct.

The angle of the sun relative to the angle of the finish line also comes into play, I think.

I'll do more experiments once I get more Bud Light cans.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/929835975215165440

[Andy Asaro]

Funny how the Owner can let a poster see his own posts but not the rest of the board.

One more time for the Industry........

https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=yfp-t-s&p=god+damn+the+pusher+man#id=1&vid=260c6d02a48121487039fa59ebf01f3e&action=click

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/929904443037949952

[kingfin66]

What is the controversy? The photo shows a dead heat.

As for Dave Schwartz's "shadow" comment. It seems pretty clear that it was intended to be tongue-in-cheek; it was an old friend's horsey saying concerning dead heats. Dave was not intending shadows to be the industry standard, although it seems like some of you seem to think - again tongue-in-cheek - that it would work better than the current technology.

Is the suggestion that this race was not truly a dead heat? If so, why?

[cj]

What is the controversy? The photo shows a dead heat.

As for Dave Schwartz's "shadow" comment. It seems pretty clear that it was intended to be tongue-in-cheek; it was an old friend's horsey saying concerning dead heats. Dave was not intending shadows to be the industry standard, although it seems like some of you seem to think - again tongue-in-cheek - that it would work better than the current technology.

Is the suggestion that this race was not truly a dead heat? If so, why?

The controversy was it somehow took 12 minutes to declare it a dead heat, and then the silly "explanation" by the steward.

[Dave Schwartz]

As for Dave Schwartz's "shadow" comment. It seems pretty clear that it was intended to be tongue-in-cheek; it was an old friend's horsey saying concerning dead heats. Dave was not intending shadows to be the industry standard, although it seems like some of you seem to think - again tongue-in-cheek - that it would work better than the current technology.


Actually, I was serious.''I have used this for years to win fun bets about photos at the wire. It rarely misses.

As for this photo particular, yes, I was kidding.

I mean, it just sin't THAT accurate.

But, the next time you are watching a duel to the wire in slow motion, look at the shadow. It really DOES pick the winner. Not by an eyelash, LOL.


PS: The Durante photo is the winner in this thread. By a ____. You can fill in the blank.

[dilanesp]

As long as the camera is positioned on the wire, the photo will accurately show the positions of the horse's noses on the wire, which is all that matter. Yes, the REST of the photo may be distorted, but that's because a photo finish camera isn't designed for equine portraiture.

[davew]

It is, but how about this: we break ties with the shadow!! No more dead heats. :D

What do you do with night racing like this race?

http://americanracehorse.com/wp-content/uploads/deadheat2.jpg

[SkunkApe]

What do you do with night racing like this race?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag4NhsfemvE

[castaway01]

What do you do with night racing like this race?



Shine a giant spotlight in everyone's eyes in the stretch. Whatever horse doesn't freak out and end up in the infield lake wins.

[AltonKelsey]

As long as the camera is positioned on the wire, the photo will accurately show the positions of the horse's noses on the wire, which is all that matter. Yes, the REST of the photo may be distorted, but that's because a photo finish camera isn't designed for equine portraiture.


I gave an explanation as to why the shadow could be offset considerably from the actual noses.

Apparently no one was impressed.

[olelucky]

Confused on this photo, when the 8 is at the finish line in slo mo his hind feet are underneath him, but photo shows his hind leg behind him. So the image is that much distorted other than the noses ?

[098poi]

Some interesting videos, probably posted before as this is not a new topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8YJ_YWNR78

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut0nKdLCAEo

[kingfin66]

The controversy was it somehow took 12 minutes to declare it a dead heat, and then the silly "explanation" by the steward.

Oh, okay. Thanks. I did not realize that it took them that long. 12-minutes is an excessive amount of time for placing.

[kingfin66]

What do you do with night racing like this race?

http://americanracehorse.com/wp-content/uploads/deadheat2.jpg

I had that picture blown up to 16" x 20" and have it hanging in my office at work. The colors and subject matter are excellent. It is a great conversation piece.

[JustRalph]

I had that picture blown up to 16" x 20" and have it hanging in my office at work. The colors and subject matter are excellent. It is a great conversation piece.

That’s a great idea..........👍

[kingfin66]

That’s a great idea..........👍

Costco!

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/pick4andwin/status/930475818584702976

[cj]

Well this is interesting...


https://twitter.com/BH_JBalan/status/931248116237418496

In the mean time:

https://www.newtechrecycling.com/computer_recycling_images/CRT-recycling.jpg

https://kids.kiddle.co/images/thumb/4/4d/Epson_MX-80.jpg/797px-Epson_MX-80.jpg

[Psychotic Parakeet]

Well this is interesting...


https://twitter.com/BH_JBalan/status/931248116237418496

In the mean time:

https://www.newtechrecycling.com/computer_recycling_images/CRT-recycling.jpg

https://kids.kiddle.co/images/thumb/4/4d/Epson_MX-80.jpg/797px-Epson_MX-80.jpg

Perfect response. Just perfect.

[Afleet]

I gave an explanation as to why the shadow could be offset considerably from the actual noses.

Apparently no one was impressed.

I was impressed

[PaceAdvantage]

I can't bang my head against the wall enough when people, in this day and age (THE INFORMATION AGE), STILL HAVE NO CLUE HOW A PHOTO FINISH SYSTEM WORKS IN RACING.

Ignorance is never flattering people...

[cj]

I can't bang my head against the wall enough when people, in this day and age (THE INFORMATION AGE), STILL HAVE NO CLUE HOW A PHOTO FINISH SYSTEM WORKS IN RACING.

Ignorance is never flattering people...

That wasn't really the controversy here, but I get your point.

[PaceAdvantage]

That wasn't really the controversy here, but I get your point.When the talk started turning to shadows, it was certainly heading there...

[Tom]

I can't bang my head against the wall enough when people, in this day and age (THE INFORMATION AGE), STILL HAVE NO CLUE HOW A PHOTO FINISH SYSTEM WORKS IN RACING.

Ignorance is never flattering people...

We thought we understood how races are timed, too, but apparently this is NOT the information age.

In racing, it is the whatever that box says we go with age.:bang:

I would not expect photo finishing systems to be any better than the timing systems, which suck.

The root cause is that the systems that are failing are the TRACKS themselves and their inept running of their businesses. They just do not care about their customers. No track appears to be above this.

Statements like this one "is in the works to be fixed and will be fixed shortly." are totally unacceptable. No races should be run at that track UNTIL it is fixed.

That is how REAL world businesses are run.

[PaceAdvantage]

I really haven't seen one instance of a photo finish in the last 5-10 years that I can remember thinking either the stewards or the equipment itself got wrong. I'm sure it happened and I'm just not remembering it, but it has to be extremely, extremely rare...

[AltonKelsey]

PA, guess there aren't enough real issues and problems for folks to dwell on. Inventing phantom insults is a popular meme

[jay68802]

I really haven't seen one instance of a photo finish in the last 5-10 years that I can remember thinking either the stewards or the equipment itself got wrong. I'm sure it happened and I'm just not remembering it, but it has to be extremely, extremely rare...

Check the finish of the 1st race at Parx on 9/3/17.

[Franco Santiago]

Not sure if anyone posted it yet, but this is worth a read on how photo finishes work. Also explains the distortion from in the photo (someone asked why the video shows the horse's leg in a different position in the Del Mar race).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photo_finish

Uhm...no mention of using shadows LOL!!

[davew]

Check the finish of the 1st race at Parx on 9/3/17.

watched a replay - interesting

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/parx-stewards-declare-dead-heat-photo-finish-equipment-malfunction/

[Andy Asaro]

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/chrb-photo-finish-cameras-updated-hd-san-luis-rey-donation-summary/


• Staff presented a report (attached to this news release) on the CHRB review of the photo-finish technology in use at California racetracks. After contacting major racetracks in other states and their vendor, staff determined that the California vendor, Plusmic, uses “state-of-the-art” technology for photo finishes. However, the review determined that the monitors in the stewards' stands at racetracks used by stewards to review photos require updating to high definition (HD). The monitor in the stand at Santa Anita already has been upgraded to HD and similar upgrades at other tracks will become part of the licensing process.

[Racetrack Playa]

2018 and the stewards do not have HD monitors :confused:


Paulick posted this link about PFs @ Woodbine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut0nKdLCAEo

[onefast99]

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/chrb-photo-finish-cameras-updated-hd-san-luis-rey-donation-summary/


• Staff presented a report (attached to this news release) on the CHRB review of the photo-finish technology in use at California racetracks. After contacting major racetracks in other states and their vendor, staff determined that the California vendor, Plusmic, uses “state-of-the-art” technology for photo finishes. However, the review determined that the monitors in the stewards' stands at racetracks used by stewards to review photos require updating to high definition (HD). The monitor in the stand at Santa Anita already has been upgraded to HD and similar upgrades at other tracks will become part of the licensing process.
I still think the NFL holds the record for the time it takes to review a play and based on the BS they feed you on why the play stood or was reversed is another 3 to 4 minutes(and of course 4 commercials in between). Photo finishes are normally pretty quick unless you have a dead heat.
I never knew they didn't have HD at some tracks that is in itself not good!

[Denny]

A friend of mine, Ken Klein (who passed about 15 months ago), taught me a cool shortcut to telling who the winner is.

He said, "The shadow has no camera angle."

BTW, this works really well when eyeballing a race at the wire.



Regards,
Dave Schwartz


That might be the dumbest thing ever.

Look at the shadow on the photo finish picture on comment #4.

Stopped reading the thread after that.

Not only is the angle important of the sun important, so is the height of the object (in this case the horse) making the shadow. Additionally for extra, look at the shadow of the jockeys - you would think that the wrong one was in front if you went by the shadows.

[toddbowker]

I really haven't seen one instance of a photo finish in the last 5-10 years that I can remember thinking either the stewards or the equipment itself got wrong. I'm sure it happened and I'm just not remembering it, but it has to be extremely, extremely rare...Just a clarification, it's never the Stewards making that call, it's the Placing Judges. I never had a Steward attempt to influence or over-rule me on a call ever. In fact, most won't even give you an opinion, although they will take a look at close ones from time to time.

I only had two instances in the thousands of races I judged where there were problems with the photo finish system itself.

1) Had a race at River Downs on Breeders' Cup day where we ran a couple after the Classic. River had no finish line lights. The last race was pretty dark and we were still in the black and white film era. Saddle cloths were still white numbers on black cloths. All you could really see in the negative were the saddle towel and head numbers. Everything else was basically clear. Fortunately the horses were pretty spread out, and the video replay was good enough for us to sort everything out. Also of note, just to be safe, we sent one of the Placing Judges down to the outside rail of the track for better viewing just in case.

2) The other race was at Canterbury, and the photo finish system completely failed. Again lucky the horses were spread out. All of us agreed on the order from our written finish order from watching live, and we watched the video replay which confirmed everything.

I was never part of a hanging of bad numbers, although I did catch one at another track. While working at Beulah during a 7/7 card with Thistledown, I caught the Thistledown judges hanging bad numbers in one of their races. We had an open call to the Steward's stand up there, and I screamed out "Stop" before they were going to go official and told them to look at their toteboard (which I could see on TV). Got a big thank you on that one ... :)

[Andy Asaro]

Just a clarification, it's never the Stewards making that call, it's the Placing Judges. I never had a Steward attempt to influence or over-rule me on a call ever. In fact, most won't even give you an opinion, although they will take a look at close ones from time to time.

I only had two instances in the thousands of races I judged where there were problems with the photo finish system itself.

1) Had a race at River Downs on Breeders' Cup day where we ran a couple after the Classic. River had no finish line lights. The last race was pretty dark and we were still in the black and white film era. Saddle cloths were still white numbers on black cloths. All you could really see in the negative were the saddle towel and head numbers. Everything else was basically clear. Fortunately the horses were pretty spread out, and the video replay was good enough for us to sort everything out. Also of note, just to be safe, we sent one of the Placing Judges down to the outside rail of the track for better viewing just in case.

2) The other race was at Canterbury, and the photo finish system completely failed. Again lucky the horses were spread out. All of us agreed on the order from our written finish order from watching live, and we watched the video replay which confirmed everything.

I was never part of a hanging of bad numbers, although I did catch one at another track. While working at Beulah during a 7/7 card with Thistledown, I caught the Thistledown judges hanging bad numbers in one of their races. We had an open call to the Steward's stand up there, and I screamed out "Stop" before they were going to go official and told them to look at their toteboard (which I could see on TV). Got a big thank you on that one ... :)

In Ca the Stewards make the final call using antiquated equipment. This is one of the most embarrassing episodes ever for California Racing and it took Commissioner Auerbach asking Scott Chaney a simple question to expose the truth. Amazing.

[PaceAdvantage]

That might be the dumbest thing ever.Not even close.

[ultracapper]

When they're running head and head down the stretch, the shadows are always what I look at to determine which horse has the edge. Obviously, different times of the day are better than others, but it's still a very good barometer of positioning.

[mountainman]

In Ca the Stewards make the final call using antiquated equipment. This is one of the most embarrassing episodes ever for California Racing and it took Commissioner Auerbach asking Scott Chaney a simple question to expose the truth. Amazing.

STEWARDS have final say -if they so choose-when placing malfunctions or snafus occur-but usually prefer to remain safely unaccountable.

[Andy Asaro]

STEWARDS have final say -if they so choose-when placing malfunctions or snafus occur-but usually prefer to remain safely unaccountable.

We have activist Stewards in California who don't tell the truth on a regular basis. Scott Chaney's performance on TVG should have caused him to be terminated IMO.

[toddbowker]

In Ca the Stewards make the final call using antiquated equipment. Have been out of the placing stand for a long time, but Plusmic was always considered to be the best system out there, and the comments from the CHRB meeting on 1/25/18 seems to confirm it still is. All the CHRB asked for was a better monitor in the Placing Judge's stand. Interesting that the CHRB rules allow for the Stewards to make a final determination, although it appears it's only supposed to be for dead heats or when the placing judges don't agree.

STEWARDS have final say -if they so choose-when placing malfunctions or snafus occur-but usually prefer to remain safely unaccountable.I have never experienced that. Even offered a few times to let them give an opinion on particularly difficult decisions. Was always told it was on the Placing Judges to make the call, even if they did take a look. Rules in Ohio and Minnesota (where I spent most of my time) specifically state the placing judge's decision is final.

[dilanesp]

Yes, the actual equipment used in California for reading a photo finish is super-high resolution. Having said that, it is silly that the placing judges don't have an HD monitor up there to view the video of the races.

It doesn't surprise me, though, because there's still TONS of "low def" equipment at Santa Anita. As you all know, I was recently back at Aqueduct, and the monitors were all pretty new and beautiful and hi def-- perfect for watching the races inside.

In contrast, Santa Anita, especially on the second floor of the grandstand, still has a ton of monitors that were first installed in the 1980's. Not only are they super low def, but plenty of them either have a loose cable producing snow in the picture or have the "tint" control set all the way to "magenta". Combine this with the speakers turned down way too low to hear Michael Wrona, and what we are left with is a situation where the poor bettors up there really have no idea who is winning the race.

[elhelmete]

Yes, the actual equipment used in California for reading a photo finish is super-high resolution. Having said that, it is silly that the placing judges don't have an HD monitor up there to view the video of the races.

It doesn't surprise me, though, because there's still TONS of "low def" equipment at Santa Anita. As you all know, I was recently back at Aqueduct, and the monitors were all pretty new and beautiful and hi def-- perfect for watching the races inside.

In contrast, Santa Anita, especially on the second floor of the grandstand, still has a ton of monitors that were first installed in the 1980's. Not only are they super low def, but plenty of them either have a loose cable producing snow in the picture or have the "tint" control set all the way to "magenta". Combine this with the speakers turned down way too low to hear Michael Wrona, and what we are left with is a situation where the poor bettors up there really have no idea who is winning the race.

I'll go one step further.

I'd say 67.09912% of all remaining standard-def CRT 27" TVs are located at racetracks and OTBs.

[jay68802]

I'll go one step further.

I'd say 67.09912% of all remaining standard-def CRT 27" TVs are located at racetracks and OTBs.

That makes Fonner Park a high class track, we have about 60% HD monitors.:headbanger: