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Afleet
11-06-2017, 09:31 PM
I run up to the track to cash my tri on the Bar of Gold race. I run it through the machines just to see what happens (would have been a signer earlier in the year and computer would not have paid it) it pays and I print the voucher and bring it to a teller. A manager comes up and says they need to see my social security card. I ask why-its not a signer(spent $72 on the tri wheel). They said the feds REQUIRE they record my SSN.

The manager takes a photocopy of my SSN, I complain again (identity theft, so forth and so on) and I'm starting to lose my temper. I get my cash and am leaving the window, the manager stops me and asks to see my player card and shows me the names of two people who won a handicapping contest over the past weekend. I didn't even know there was a handicapping contest. I came in 2nd even though the winners I bet straight up on Saturday where made threw a different outlet. A players appreciation employee, young woman, comes up and states we have to go downstairs to get the money and fill out a W-9. I said fine and collected another $500 for coming in 2nd place in the contest. I tried to tip her a c-note and she stated she couldn't take it. They knew I was from out of town and comped me lunch for my long drive home.

That was the first time I ever went to a racetrack and never made a bet-saved money ;)

Interesting day to say the least

Franco Santiago
11-06-2017, 10:08 PM
A manager comes up and says they need to see my social security card. I ask why-its not a signer(spent $72 on the tri wheel). They said the feds REQUIRE they record my SSN.


It is disconcerting that the federal government requires your social security number. Why? Is that requirement in the bill that was passed? So, even though you no longer have to get handed a W-2G, they in effect, are keeping track of the bets you cash that hit at 300-1 or greater? For audit purposes?

I think it stinks.

VigorsTheGrey
11-06-2017, 10:31 PM
I don't know for sure, but if it is a transaction over 10K, the Feds may require some documentation, like at the banks....was your trifecta hit for a buck or more base wager, and therefore over 10K payoff in this case...?

RunForTheRoses
11-07-2017, 08:10 AM
Does anyone know what to do with signers from earlier in the year? That is, will the filing of my taxes be seamless, I have my doubts with the IRS.

Afleet
11-07-2017, 05:53 PM
I don't know for sure, but if it is a transaction over 10K, the Feds may require some documentation, like at the banks....was your trifecta hit for a buck or more base wager, and therefore over 10K payoff in this case...?

it was less than $10k

toddbowker
11-07-2017, 06:06 PM
Does anyone know what to do with signers from earlier in the year? That is, will the filing of my taxes be seamless, I have my doubts with the IRS.The new rules didn't change anything as far as previous signers or filing of taxes.

LemonSoupKid
11-08-2017, 02:54 PM
The new rules didn't change anything as far as previous signers or filing of taxes.

Let's ask the most important question:

What does it take to cash and not have to do anything but take the cash and walk away? A bet lower than 10k return?

If so, it still makes sense to do small tickets, when taking the big picture into account.

dilanesp
11-08-2017, 03:05 PM
Let's ask the most important question:

What does it take to cash and not have to do anything but take the cash and walk away? A bet lower than 10k return?

If so, it still makes sense to do small tickets, when taking the big picture into account.

Be careful. Engaging in a series of similar cash transactions to avoid the $10k reporting requirement is "structuring", a felony. It is what they went after Dennis Hastert for when he was paying his accuser.

chiguy
11-08-2017, 07:08 PM
I am wondering if the request for the SS card was for the contest win. I know that a local casino here does these drawings at different times during the evenings and I was surprised to find out that if your name is drawn for a 1k drawing you had to sign and show your SSN. If you won $1199.99 on a machine you could just cash it out no questions asked.

Afleet
11-08-2017, 08:08 PM
I am wondering if the request for the SS card was for the contest win. I know that a local casino here does these drawings at different times during the evenings and I was surprised to find out that if your name is drawn for a 1k drawing you had to sign and show your SSN. If you won $1199.99 on a machine you could just cash it out no questions asked.

nope; they caught me as i was leaving and advised about the contest win, after the other incident

Franco Santiago
11-08-2017, 08:19 PM
Be careful. Engaging in a series of similar cash transactions to avoid the $10k reporting requirement is "structuring", a felony. It is what they went after Dennis Hastert for when he was paying his accuser.

Is it still structuring if you don't hit the bet?

I'll bet there isn't a Pick-4 player alive that has not "structured" a bet.

Imagine going to the window and betting $2.00 base bets instead of 50 cent base bets because you didn't want to be accused of structuring! Laughable, IMO.

dilanesp
11-08-2017, 08:58 PM
Is it still structuring if you don't hit the bet?

I'll bet there isn't a Pick-4 player alive that has not "structured" a bet.

Imagine going to the window and betting $2.00 base bets instead of 50 cent base bets because you didn't want to be accused of structuring! Laughable, IMO.

You aren't thinking about this right.

The bet isn't a $10k cash transaction. Cashing them is.

Cashing $10k of tickets on the same combination or horse separately to avoid reporting it is structuring. If you cash the separate tickets together and they are reported there is no structuring.

LemonSoupKid
11-09-2017, 01:19 PM
You aren't thinking about this right.

The bet isn't a $10k cash transaction. Cashing them is.

Cashing $10k of tickets on the same combination or horse separately to avoid reporting it is structuring. If you cash the separate tickets together and they are reported there is no structuring.

Back to the main question, do you believe that the SSN was requested because it was a $10k payout? I buy that. So in a sense (as in a casino) they have a least some track on you if you cash a $10k+ wager, regardless.

What's funnier, if I'm getting your gist, is that you would cash two $8k tickets in a row if you had 2 identical winners (who would be stupid enough to do that); even if they were $12k each, you wouldn't just have someone else also cash it, while you cash ticket 2?

If I have this right, there is NO withholding, but they ARE withholding your SSN for payouts above $10k. Correct?

dilanesp
11-09-2017, 02:43 PM
Back to the main question, do you believe that the SSN was requested because it was a $10k payout? I buy that. So in a sense (as in a casino) they have a least some track on you if you cash a $10k+ wager, regardless.

What's funnier, if I'm getting your gist, is that you would cash two $8k tickets in a row if you had 2 identical winners (who would be stupid enough to do that); even if they were $12k each, you wouldn't just have someone else also cash it, while you cash ticket 2?

If I have this right, there is NO withholding, but they ARE withholding your SSN for payouts above $10k. Correct?

It's two separate laws. One is tax withholding which has been discussed to death here. The other is federal reporting of any cash transaction of over $10k, taxable or not, which is really as much about money laundering as taxation.

And structuring occurs whenever you intentionally structure your transactions to ensure that each transaction is less than 10k to avoid reporting.

LemonSoupKid
11-09-2017, 05:37 PM
It's two separate laws. One is tax withholding which has been discussed to death here. The other is federal reporting of any cash transaction of over $10k, taxable or not, which is really as much about money laundering as taxation.

And structuring occurs whenever you intentionally structure your transactions to ensure that each transaction is less than 10k to avoid reporting.

Currency Transaction Report (CTR) are the issue here. Thousands of these are filed every day. It seems that only if you have that happening a lot or are a shady person, will it elicit by definition a look in. Best to keep your tickets and losses in case, anyway. I wonder what would be more "suspicious", reporting a $10k win with losses of $10k as well, or just not reporting it if you hit for $12k and it's only a CTR.

dilanesp
11-09-2017, 09:41 PM
Currency Transaction Report (CTR) are the issue here. Thousands of these are filed every day. It seems that only if you have that happening a lot or are a shady person, will it elicit by definition a look in. Best to keep your tickets and losses in case, anyway. I wonder what would be more "suspicious", reporting a $10k win with losses of $10k as well, or just not reporting it if you hit for $12k and it's only a CTR.

I would assume the IRS has access to both CTR's and SAR's (which can be filed by the merchant if a transaction is suspicipus even if it is less than $10k). I don't know of the IRS routinely reviews them or only when there is some cause.

LemonSoupKid
11-09-2017, 10:17 PM
Nor do I

It is funny (stupid) how they've never moved any of these numbers due to inflation, either.

dilanesp
11-09-2017, 11:42 PM
Nor do I

It is funny (stupid) how they've never moved any of these numbers due to inflation, either.

Don't get me started on that. They also don't increase currency denominations with inflation either.

It is clearly the unadvertised goal of the federal bureaucracy to create a cashless society where all but the smallest exchanges of money are tracked. It is equally clear that they don't say this publicly, because they are aware there would be popular resistance if they did.

LemonSoupKid
11-10-2017, 10:32 AM
Don't get me started on that. They also don't increase currency denominations with inflation either.

It is clearly the unadvertised goal of the federal bureaucracy to create a cashless society where all but the smallest exchanges of money are tracked. It is equally clear that they don't say this publicly, because they are aware there would be popular resistance if they did.

I agree with you that it is indeed the slow progression. I say slow because it is definitely the method utilized, like so many other central/marxist infiltrations, where it can be most easily and effectively accomplished. Our saying it allows for others to call us conspiracy theorists or some sort of ad hominem, but an objective look at it shows you all you need to know. We couldn't even get withholding changes in 40+ years and the dollar value since the 70s has inflated over 6-fold. Buying power in 2017, of $1 value in 1970, took $6.40.

I'm very careful of outright conspiracies, since I truly don't think anyone actually meets and discusses such things specifically. A couple guys here and there involved in the "system" may mention that what they are already doing to maintain power and money also has X side effects (this is one), because they also see the big picture like we do --- but I believe most things that hurt the populace like this are just residual or downstream effects of larger problems created by the bureaucracies.

I find this topic fascinating, since most people have very little awareness of what is going on, and the facts we state are easily verified anywhere. I prescribe most problems in life to slow, generational forgetting which is just a specific spin on lack of knowledge of history, something that the 60s children not only promoted as they infiltrated academia in this country, they went beyond it and outright lied to the populace to maintain the agenda. It's really sad and is maybe the main factor of why we are where we are today: in decline.

ultracapper
11-10-2017, 12:47 PM
If I've read the OPs posts correctly, he cashed out for less than $10K, and had to release his SSN at cash-in. $10k doesn't seem to be the issue here in his need to show his SS card.

ultracapper
11-10-2017, 12:50 PM
I'd guess the track is just playing it careful, and probably will relax as time goes on and they become more familiar with the new laws. I can't see any reason why OP needed to show his SS card.