Nevada resident (lives part time in Minnesota)

[One Eye]

Greetings,

I live in Nevada and we are unable to get rebates on horse racing wagers. You can place wagers through a smart phone app, but you will not receive cash back at any tracks.

At first, when I moved, I talked to a representative of an ADW who said I could keep my account open since I lived in two states. Furthermore, my information was still linked to my original account. Unfortunately, that was 3 years ago. Also, I noticed the rules of the original site now exclude my home state.

It seems ironic that I live in Nevada, yet have such difficulty obtaining comps (i.e. rebates) on horse racing bets. This has depressed my wagering activity in a very significant manner. Does anybody have any creative ideas on how I could get back in the game, with at least moderate rebates? As it stands, I restrict my wagers to lower takeout wagers at California tracks (15.43% WPS and 14% pick 5) or Woodbine (14.95% WPS). However, many tracks are simply unplayable due to laughable takeout.

[ReplayRandall]

If you live in Vegas, go to the Wynn Las Vegas race and sports book, and ask to talk to director John Avello. The Wynn is currently remodeling its book and will hit the ground running when complete. This is the perfect time to talk to John, tell him exactly what you've said via your post, just be honest about your handle and ask what options are available to you.....John is simply one the best there is, you'll get a straight forward and honest answer to your questions.....Good luck.

[One Eye]

Greetings ReplayRandall,

I appreciate your willingness to share this information. I am a resident of Las Vegas (i.e. Spring Valley) and live 5 miles from the Las Vegas Strip. Later this week, I am going to stop by and see if I can start a dialogue.



If you live in Vegas, go to the Wynn Las Vegas race and sports book, and ask to talk to director John Avello. The Wynn is currently remodeling its book and will hit the ground running when complete. This is the perfect time to talk to John, tell him exactly what you've said via your post, just be honest about your handle and ask what options are available to you.....John is simply one the best there is, you'll get a straight forward and honest answer to your questions.....Good luck.

[SandyW]

If you live in Vegas, go to the Wynn Las Vegas race and sports book, and ask to talk to director John Avello. The Wynn is currently remodeling its book and will hit the ground running when complete. This is the perfect time to talk to John, tell him exactly what you've said via your post, just be honest about your handle and ask what options are available to you.....John is simply one the best there is, you'll get a straight forward and honest answer to your questions.....Good luck.

Nevada state law prevents cash rebates on any pari-mutual wagers placed at race and sports books in Nevada.
John Avello was the main man behind getting the state law passed preventing cash rebates in the state of Nevada.

[SandyW]

Here is the section of Regulation 22 that prevents cash rebates on any pari-mutual wager in the state of Nevada.

22.125 Wagers; terms and conditions. 1. No book shall: (a) Accept from a patron, directly or indirectly, less than the full face value of an off-track pari-mutuel wager; (b) Agree to refund or rebate to a patron any portion or percentage of the full face value of an off-track pari-mutuel wager; or (c) Increase the payoff of, or pay a bonus on, a winning off-track pari-mutuel wager.

[ReplayRandall]

Nevada state law prevents cash rebates on any pari-mutual wagers placed at race and sports books in Nevada.
John Avello was the main man behind getting the state law passed preventing cash rebates in the state of Nevada.

In the ultra competitive "rewards club" era that exists in Vegas, The Wynn knows how to retain valued customers, be it through slot play, pit play or race and sports book play. The valued player is "uniquely compensated" for various levels of play/handle......Enough said.

[SandyW]

Uniquely compensated, food, drinks, shows, rooms, free racing forms, but NO CASH AT ALL UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.
You can bet a $100,000 a day or $10 a day same rules, NO CASH REBATES, PERIOD.
SORRY, TAKE IT FROM ME A PERSON THAT WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST REBATE PLAYERS IN LAS VEGAS BEFORE REG-22 WENT INTO EFFECT.

[Dave Schwartz]

Uniquely compensated, food, drinks, shows, rooms, free racing forms, but NO CASH AT ALL UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.
You can bet a $100,000 a day or $10 a day same rules, NO CASH REBATES, PERIOD.
SORRY, TAKE IT FROM ME A PERSON THAT WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST REBATE PLAYERS IN LAS VEGAS BEFORE REG-22 WENT INTO EFFECT.


Sandy is exactly right.

Cash is different.

[ReplayRandall]

Sandy is exactly right.

Cash is different.

And so are vouchers and script....Next.

[ReplayRandall]

Uniquely compensated, food, drinks, shows, rooms, free racing forms, but NO CASH AT ALL UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.
You can bet a $100,000 a day or $10 a day same rules, NO CASH REBATES, PERIOD.
SORRY, TAKE IT FROM ME A PERSON THAT WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST REBATE PLAYERS IN LAS VEGAS BEFORE REG-22 WENT INTO EFFECT.


It's obvious you haven't played in Vegas since.....Playing vouchers and script are the preferred method, but what do I know.....BTW, quit yelling in your posts, as if that means your right, as your conviction means nothing.

[SandyW]

And so are vouchers and script....Next.

Anything that can be turned into cash is a violation of REG-22.


Here is the section of Regulation 22 that prevents cash rebates on any pari-mutual wager in the state of Nevada.

22.125 Wagers; terms and conditions. 1. No book shall: (a) Accept from a patron, directly or indirectly, less than the full face value of an off-track pari-mutuel wager; (b) Agree to refund or rebate to a patron any portion or percentage of the full face value of an off-track pari-mutuel wager; or (c) Increase the payoff of, or pay a bonus on, a winning off-track pari-mutuel wager

[ReplayRandall]

Anything that can be turned into cash is a violation of REG-22.


Here is the section of Regulation 22 that prevents cash rebates on any pari-mutual wager in the state of Nevada.

22.125 Wagers; terms and conditions. 1. No book shall: (a) Accept from a patron, directly or indirectly, less than the full face value of an off-track pari-mutuel wager; (b) Agree to refund or rebate to a patron any portion or percentage of the full face value of an off-track pari-mutuel wager; or (c) Increase the payoff of, or pay a bonus on, a winning off-track pari-mutuel wager

Dude, you think slot and pit players have a different compensation system, but those who bet in the race and sports book are shut down by the reg you just quoted?.:pound:You're a funny guy:pound:....Our conversation is over.

[SandyW]

It's obvious you haven't played in Vegas since.....Playing vouchers and script are the preferred method, but what do I know.....BTW, quit yelling in your posts, as if that means your right, as your conviction means nothing.

I live in Las Vegas and play here all the time, no such thing as vouchers and script for your handle that can be used as cash.
If there was it would be a violatiuon of REG-22.

[SandyW]

Dude, you think slot and pit players have a different compensation system, but those who bet in the race and sports book are shut down by the reg you just quoted?.:pound:You're a funny guy:pound:....Our conversation is over.

You answered your own question, slot and pit players absolutely have a different compensation system, then those who bet pari-mutual wagers in the race book.
My wife of 46 years still thinks I'm a funny guy so that is all that matters.

[ReplayRandall]

I live in Las Vegas and play here all the time, no such thing as vouchers and script for your handle that can be used as cash.
If there was it would be a violatiuon of REG-22.

Last word here: For example, If slot/pit players are given $100 free-play vouchers, meaning once that voucher has been played through $100 worth, the remainder can be cashed out. Depending on ANY casino play, points are accumulated at various percentages, which triggers free-play vouchers of various denominations, depending on level/handle of play. Do you think that just maybe these free-play slot/pit vouchers are also given to race and sports book players at a higher denominational rate, based on their play which is given a higher percentage than slot/pit play? Yes, nothing directly can be bet back into the race and sports book, they must bet these vouchers/script back through the slots or the pit, but can you see what the final end result is?......The race and sports book player IS being compensated monetarily, in a roundabout way, AND just maybe on a larger scale.....I'm done.

[SandyW]

Last word here: For example, If slot/pit players are given $100 free-play vouchers, meaning once that voucher has been played through $100 worth, the remainder can be cashed out. Depending on ANY casino play, points are accumulated at various percentages, which triggers free-play vouchers of various denominations, depending on level/handle of play. Do you think that just maybe these free-play slot/pit vouchers are also given to race and sports book players at a higher denominational rate, based on their play which is a higher percentage than slot/pit play? Yes, nothing directly can be bet back into the race and sports book, they must bet these vouchers/script back through the slots or the pit, but can you see what the final end result is?......The race and sports book player IS being compensated AND just maybe on a larger scale.....I'm done.

Do you think that just maybe these free-play slot/pit vouchers are also given to race and sports book players at a higher denominational rate, based on their play which is a higher percentage than slot/pit play?

The answer to this question is no, it would be a violation of REG-22.
What you say sounds good and I wish it was true, but it just is not true. No casino will risk a fine from the Gaming Control Board. No exceptions.

[ReplayRandall]

Do you think that just maybe these free-play slot/pit vouchers are also given to race and sports book players at a higher denominational rate, based on their play which is a higher percentage than slot/pit play?

The answer to this question is no, it would be a violation of REG-22.
What you say sounds good and I wish it was true, but it just is not true. No casino will risk a fine from the Gaming Control Board.

Go up to any race and sports book and give them your rewards/player card when wagering, and some will give you 10% towards reward points per dollar wagered, versus a video poker player who gets maybe 1% of money wagered toward rewards points.

Example:

Video poker player on a $1 machine wagers $5 a play, at 600 hands an hour, has wagered $3000 x 3 hours of play=$9000. Player receives 1% of rewards points, which is 90 points.

Race and sports book player gives $900 worth of play in his 3 hours of play, he receives 10% of rewards points, which is 90 points.

Bottom-line, Reg-22 that you keep quoting is for DIRECT reimbursement, which can't be given, but said player is still being given rewards points at a higher % rate than the video poker player, who churns 10 times the amount but receives the same rewards point compensation as the example I've given above.....If you doubt what I say is true, go ask any race and sports book manager, and they'll tell you what your %'s are on money wagered towards reward points.

[Dave Schwartz]

You answered your own question, slot and pit players absolutely have a different compensation system, then those who bet pari-mutual wagers in the race book.
My wife of 46 years still thinks I'm a funny guy so that is all that matters.

Again, Sandy speaks from a factual POV.

I actually asked a racebook manager if my partner and I could get a rebate if we gave them $200k per week in handle.

He said that all they could give was room, food and show comps.

PS: Those bonus points are marked as "not redeemable for cash" if they are earned in the racebook.

[ReplayRandall]

Again, Sandy speaks from a factual POV.

I actually asked a racebook manager if my partner and I could get a rebate if we gave them $200k per week in handle.

He said that all they could give was room, food and show comps.

PS: Those bonus points are marked as "not redeemable for cash" if they are earned in the racebook.

You need to go back and re-read posts 15 and 17.......Race and sports book players will receive rewards points on their cards AND as long as they've given some type of slot/pit play, the "total rewards points" are aggregated(no separation) and will trigger Free-play vouchers through slots/pit as the end result, which circumnavigates around your "not redeemable for cash" stumbling block. After these denominational vouchers/script have been played through ONCE in let's say video poker, the remainder can be cashed out......I didn't realize I'd have to spell this all out, in retrospect, maybe I shouldn't have.

[Dave Schwartz]

I do not know that this is legal, but even if it is, the circumvention of the law this way would be a joke.

So, a guy who bets (say) $100,000 and gets a whopping 4% rebate has to go play a video poker machine to actually get to keep his rebate? Less his losses, of course.

[ReplayRandall]

I do not know that this is legal, but even if it is, the circumvention of the law this way would be a joke.

So, a guy who bets (say) $100,000 and gets a whopping 4% rebate has to go play a video poker machine to actually get to keep his rebate? Less his losses, of course.

Pretty funny, isn't it?.....What lengths the casinos will go through to retain ANY valued players is a work of art, all unto itself.

[Franco Santiago]

Sandy is exactly right.

Cash is different.

Dave, are slot credits considered "cash"?

For example, let's say I bet $100,000 in a month. I get comped 10K in slot credits and play the 10K and get back 7K after the slots take 30%. I take my 7K credit slip and cash it in for 7K in cash.

I don't suppose this is possible, but thought I'd ask anyway.

[SandyW]

Dave, are slot credits considered "cash"?

For example, let's say I bet $100,000 in a month. I get comped 10K in slot credits and play the 10K and get back 7K after the slots take 30%. I take my 7K credit slip and cash it in for 7K in cash.

I don't suppose this is possible, but thought I'd ask anyway.

Not possible, you will never be comped slot credits for any pari-mutual wagering. You can only use the pari-mutual credits for food, rooms, shows, racing forms or other hotel armenities, but no converting to cash or slot play in any way, form or manner.

Here is the Regulation pertaining to rebates and what can be given for pari-mutual play.

22.125 Wagers; terms and conditions. 1. No book shall: (a) Accept from a patron, directly or indirectly, less than the full face value of an off-track pari-mutuel wager; (b) Agree to refund or rebate to a patron any portion or percentage of the full face value of an off-track pari-mutuel wager; or (c) Increase the payoff of, or pay a bonus on, a winning off-track pari-mutuel wager. 2. The provisions of this subsection do not prohibit the granting of the following by a book, including a satellite book, or a licensed gaming establishment where a book is located, or an affiliate of one or more of those entities that holds a nonrestricted gaming license: (a) Room, food, beverage, racing data subscriptions or services, including but not limited to broadcasts, periodicals and electronic publications or services, that are available to the public from other sources, tobacco, or other services, including spa services, movies, bowling and entertainment admission; (b) Limousine or other car service transportation to and from the gaming establishment where the book is located; or (c) Merchandise or other non-cash equivalents not exceeding $100 per patron per week with the value of such $100 determined by the book’s or the licensed gaming establishment’s cost. 3. A book, including a satellite book, or a licensed gaming establishment where a book is located, or an affiliate of one or more of those entities that holds a nonrestricted gaming license, may award player loyalty program points based on pari-mutuel wagers placed by a patron, however, such points may only be redeemed in accordance with the rules of the program, provided that points earned based on pari-mutuel wagers may not be redeemed for cash, items or services that the book intends to or does redeem for cash, or free-play on any gaming device or gambling game, or for items or services that do not fall under one of the exceptions listed under subsection 2. 4. A book shall not, in an attempt to provide a benefit to the patron in violation of subsection 1, offer a wagering proposition, or set or move its wagering odds, lines or limits. 5. The chairman may require a book to: (a) Disclose its betting limits in its house rules and obtain approval from the chairman before changing those limits or modifying its house rules; and (b) Document and report, in such manner as the chairman may approve or require, wagering limits, temporary changes to such limits, or the acceptance of a wager or series of wagers from the same patron that exceeds such limits. The report may include, but is not limited to: (1) Recording the name of the patron for which betting limits are changed or exceeded; (2) Recording the name of the employee approving the acceptance of a wager that exceeds betting limits or causes a change in betting limits; (3) Describing the nature of the temporary change and any related wagers; and (4) Describing how the temporary change in limit will benefit the licensee.  The chairman shall notify the book, in writing, of the decision to impose such requirements and such decision shall be considered an administrative decision and, therefore, reviewable pursuant to the procedures set forth in Regulations 4.185, 4.190 and 4.195. 6. A book shall not set lines or odds, or offer wagering propositions, designed for the purposes of ensuring that a patron will win a wager or series of wagers

[Dave Schwartz]

Dave, are slot credits considered "cash"?

For example, let's say I bet $100,000 in a month. I get comped 10K in slot credits and play the 10K and get back 7K after the slots take 30%. I take my 7K credit slip and cash it in for 7K in cash.

I don't suppose this is possible, but thought I'd ask anyway.

According to the research I did when I was having a difficult time with an account from NV, there are special rules for horse racing. That is, it is treated differently than video poker, slots, etc.

I do not pretend to be an expert on NV gaming law, but I know what I was told from several racebook managers. This was before William Hill took over most of NV.

BTW, I saw a TV ad that said they had 350 locations in NV now where you can make a bet with Wm Hill, including many 7-11s!

[SandyW]

You need to go back and re-read posts 15 and 17.......Race and sports book players will receive rewards points on their cards AND as long as they've given some type of slot/pit play, the "total rewards points" are aggregated(no separation) and will trigger Free-play vouchers through slots/pit as the end result, which circumnavigates around your "not redeemable for cash" stumbling block. After these denominational vouchers/script have been played through ONCE in let's say video poker, the remainder can be cashed out......I didn't realize I'd have to spell this all out, in retrospect, maybe I shouldn't have.

100% wrong, there is no free slot play for pari-mutual play. If you don't believe me:

Call the Gaming And Control Board and I am sure you will get the very same answer that I gave you.
Main Gaming Control Board phone number: 775-684-7700

[Dave Schwartz]

Not possible, you will never be comped slot credits for any pari-mutual wagering. You can only use the pari-mutual credits for food, rooms, shows, racing forms or other hotel armenities, but no converting to cash or slot play in any way, form or manner.

Here is the Regulation pertaining to rebates and what can be given for pari-mutual play.

22.125 Wagers; terms and conditions. 1. No book shall: (a) Accept from a patron, directly or indirectly, less than the full face value of an off-track pari-mutuel wager; (b) Agree to refund or rebate to a patron any portion or percentage of the full face value of an off-track pari-mutuel wager; or (c) Increase the payoff of, or pay a bonus on, a winning off-track pari-mutuel wager. 2. The provisions of this subsection do not prohibit the granting of the following by a book, including a satellite book, or a licensed gaming establishment where a book is located, or an affiliate of one or more of those entities that holds a nonrestricted gaming license: (a) Room, food, beverage, racing data subscriptions or services, including but not limited to broadcasts, periodicals and electronic publications or services, that are available to the public from other sources, tobacco, or other services, including spa services, movies, bowling and entertainment admission; (b) Limousine or other car service transportation to and from the gaming establishment where the book is located; or (c) Merchandise or other non-cash equivalents not exceeding $100 per patron per week with the value of such $100 determined by the book’s or the licensed gaming establishment’s cost. 3. A book, including a satellite book, or a licensed gaming establishment where a book is located, or an affiliate of one or more of those entities that holds a nonrestricted gaming license, may award player loyalty program points based on pari-mutuel wagers placed by a patron, however, such points may only be redeemed in accordance with the rules of the program, provided that points earned based on pari-mutuel wagers may not be redeemed for cash, items or services that the book intends to or does redeem for cash, or free-play on any gaming device or gambling game, or for items or services that do not fall under one of the exceptions listed under subsection 2. 4. A book shall not, in an attempt to provide a benefit to the patron in violation of subsection 1, offer a wagering proposition, or set or move its wagering odds, lines or limits. 5. The chairman may require a book to: (a) Disclose its betting limits in its house rules and obtain approval from the chairman before changing those limits or modifying its house rules; and (b) Document and report, in such manner as the chairman may approve or require, wagering limits, temporary changes to such limits, or the acceptance of a wager or series of wagers from the same patron that exceeds such limits. The report may include, but is not limited to: (1) Recording the name of the patron for which betting limits are changed or exceeded; (2) Recording the name of the employee approving the acceptance of a wager that exceeds betting limits or causes a change in betting limits; (3) Describing the nature of the temporary change and any related wagers; and (4) Describing how the temporary change in limit will benefit the licensee.  The chairman shall notify the book, in writing, of the decision to impose such requirements and such decision shall be considered an administrative decision and, therefore, reviewable pursuant to the procedures set forth in Regulations 4.185, 4.190 and 4.195. 6. A book shall not set lines or odds, or offer wagering propositions, designed for the purposes of ensuring that a patron will win a wager or series of wagers

Sandy,

You seem to have this nailed down pretty tight. :ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

While it is conceivably possible that some casino might break the rules for a very serious player, it would probably need to be a multi-million dollar a week player to get them to take such risk.


Best Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[ReplayRandall]

100% wrong, there is no free slot play for pari-mutual play.

OK Sandy, I give up to your wisdom of 78 years.....I don't know a thing, you got me, I'm just full of it.... Goodnight and farewell.

[toddbowker]

Greetings,

I live in Nevada and we are unable to get rebates on horse racing wagers. You can place wagers through a smart phone app, but you will not receive cash back at any tracks.

At first, when I moved, I talked to a representative of an ADW who said I could keep my account open since I lived in two states. Furthermore, my information was still linked to my original account. Unfortunately, that was 3 years ago. Also, I noticed the rules of the original site now exclude my home state.

It seems ironic that I live in Nevada, yet have such difficulty obtaining comps (i.e. rebates) on horse racing bets. This has depressed my wagering activity in a very significant manner. Does anybody have any creative ideas on how I could get back in the game, with at least moderate rebates? As it stands, I restrict my wagers to lower takeout wagers at California tracks (15.43% WPS and 14% pick 5) or Woodbine (14.95% WPS). However, many tracks are simply unplayable due to laughable takeout.Disclaimer --- PTC isn't licensed in Minnesota or Nevada, so we can't help you either way.

Any ADW that is operating above board will have to verify your residential address when you open the account. It's typically done electronically with what's known as a "top level screen" through a credit bureau. If the check doesn't confirm you live at the address you claim, you will be asked to provide supporting documentation (like a utility bill or lease).

Also, if you live in a good State and move to a bad one, if the ADW knows, they would have to close the account. That's probably why you got the initial response from the ADW representative.

On to the rebates question. Assuming you can establish a residence in Minnesota, you're not going to get a rebate there either. With the new ADW rules in place in the State, there is a mandatory source market fee that has to be paid to the tracks. This will pretty much kill any hope for a rebate, especially when you are playing the low takeout bets you mention at the tracks that traditionally have higher host fees. The bottom line is that to maximize your rebate potential, you would need to live in an area that doesn't have source market fees associated with it.