How can racing compete?

[Jeff P]

There is a very interesting question posted at the top of another thread:

Q. "How can horse racing take advantage of the chaos in team sports?"

A. By competing.

Imo, competing means making an effort to transform racing into a superior gambling product.

Sadly, track management, horsemen, state regulators, and politicians have shown very little interest in doing that.

A few minutes ago, in R1 at Charles Town, the #10 horse Love Totem, who was the second choice at 2-1 while standing in the gate, stumbled coming out of the gate and lost the rider.

During the running of the race I glanced at the current odds on my ADW interface: #10 Love Totem was 5-2.

A glance at the final odds on my ADW interface revealed that: #10 Love Totem was 7-2.

If this were an isolated incident I wouldn't be writing about it.

But this is not an isolated incident.

Over the years this is about the eleven hundredth time I've seen the odds go up on a horse that got a compromised start.

It's painfully obvious to me that somebody somewhere is cancelling significant money on horses that get compromised starts.

Like an idiot - I'm going to contact the TRA 20/20 committee one more time.

I used the words "like an idiot" because, by now, I should know better.

You see I've contacted them several times before. And each time I've mentioned abuse of the cancel delay they've told me "that's impossible."

And even though "that's impossible" I just watched it happen again:

Charles Town R1 Fri Sept 29, 2017 horse #10 Love Totem.

2-1 second choice standing in the gate.

Came out of the gate, stumbled, lost rider.

5-2 shortly after losing the rider.

Final odds 7-2.



-jp

.

[thaskalos]

There is a very interesting question posted at the top of another thread:

Q. "How can horse racing take advantage of the chaos in team sports?"

A. By competing.

Imo, competing means making an effort to transform racing into a superior gambling product.

Sadly, track management, horsemen, state regulators, and politicians have shown very little interest in doing that.

A few minutes ago, in R1 at Charles Town, the #10 horse Love Totem, who was the second choice at 2-1 while standing in the gate, stumbled coming out of the gate and lost the rider.

During the running of the race I glanced at the current odds on my ADW interface: #10 Love Totem was 5-2.

A glance at the final odds on my ADW interface revealed that: #10 Love Totem was 7-2.

If this were an isolated incident I wouldn't be writing about it.

But this is not an isolated incident.

Over the years this is about the eleven hundredth time I've seen the odds go up on a horse that got a compromised start.

It's painfully obvious to me that somebody somewhere is cancelling significant money on horses that get compromised starts.

Like an idiot - I'm going to contact the TRA 20/20 committee one more time.

I used the words "like an idiot" because, by now, I should know better.

You see I've contacted them several times before. And each time I've mentioned abuse of the cancel delay they've told me "that's impossible."

And even though "that's impossible" I just watched it happen again:

Charles Town R1 Fri Sept 29, 2017 horse #10 Love Totem.

2-1 second choice standing in the gate.

Came out of the gate, stumbled, lost rider.

5-2 shortly after losing the rider.

Final odds 7-2.



-jp

.

If this were a court of law...I'd think we have enough evidence here for a CONVICTION! In the REAL world, that is. But in the racetrack world...it's like knocking on a deaf man's door. Good detective-work nonetheless, Jeff. :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

I've never had a "behind-the scenes" look at the world of bet-taking at the racetrack...and a thought keeps on bothering me. The horseracing industry tells us that it is necessary for the track to maintain an "after-the-bell" canceling option...in case an "erroneous" late wager needs to get canceled by a teller. We are also assured that only the CANCELING option is available after the start of the race...and in no case could a bet be made at this late time. Has it been independently investigated that this is indeed the case?

I ask because our game is encountering great economic difficulties...and great effort is made to increase the mutuel handle in our game. If a "Whale" were to appear in these troubled times, who agreed to pump a few billion dollars annually into the game's mutuel pools if only he were allowed to place his wagers a few seconds AFTER the start of the race...would the racetracks find the "integrity" to refuse his proposal?

[VigorsTheGrey]

I've never had a "behind-the scenes" look at the world of bet-taking at the racetrack...and a thought keeps on bothering me. The horseracing industry tells us that it is necessary for the track to maintain an "after-the-bell" canceling option...in case an "erroneous" late wager needs to get canceled by a teller. We are also assured that only the CANCELING option is available after the start of the race...and in no case could a bet be made at this late time. Has it been independently investigated that this is indeed the case?

I ask because our game is encountering great economic difficulties...and great effort is made to increase the mutuel handle in our game. If a "Whale" were to appear in these troubled times, who agreed to pump a few billion dollars annually into the game's mutuel pools if only he were allowed to place his wagers a few seconds AFTER the start of the race...would the racetracks find the "integrity" to refuse his proposal?

No reason why they couldn't, although I doubt they do, But this technology/ capability is ALREADY online and available now in New Jersey through BetFair...bet DURING the race...so it is no stretch at all.

[Clocker]

A few minutes ago, in R1 at Charles Town, the #10 horse Love Totem, who was the second choice at 2-1 while standing in the gate, stumbled coming out of the gate and lost the rider.

During the running of the race I glanced at the current odds on my ADW interface: #10 Love Totem was 5-2.

A glance at the final odds on my ADW interface revealed that: #10 Love Totem was 7-2.
.

I am not making any judgement one way or the other, but an example like this is not conclusive for me. Often I have had the track web site and my ADW (Xpressbet) opened on my computer at the same time. I often see clear lags where an odds change on the track feed is followed after a short but noticeable delay until the ADW makes the same odds change.

There also has to be some delay between the time an ADW locks the betting on a race and when the last money bet is reported to the track and reflected in final odds. I can't image even the track odds board instantly changes odds as last minute money comes in.

[jay68802]

At my track here in Nebraska they have 3 terminals sort of stuck in the back and on days we do not have live racing are not used much. I tried for two days to get a bet in late. I would watch the start of the race and if the horse I selected broke to the front I would try to enter the bet. I was able to get 1 bet in in about 25 attempts.

[jay68802]

Horse racing has a perception problem that without changes will prevent it from competing in the gambling industry in the near future. Just reading on this forum points out the most common problems. Horse racing has a long history of owners, trainers, and jockeys cheating to "get one over" on the other bettors. It is almost as if they believe it is their "right" to do this. The fact that the public has no recourse in these situations is just 1 problem that has to be addressed. If a horse fails a drug test after winning, the purse money from the cheated public is redistributed to the connections, but the public that has been cheated is not reimbursed. If the connections were made to repay the tracks for the bets that were made but lost because of a drug violation, + the current fines and suspensions, I think a lot of the drug violations would stop.

[ultracapper]

Only a naive fool would think that the "after the bell" cancellation ability is not abused. This is gambling, for crying out loud. Gambling is all about getting an edge. If an erroneous bet is placed, the bettor should be responsible to point it out immediately, and the track eat it. Leaving the pools open for any kind of "adjustments" after the start of the race will, and is, being abused.

Again, close betting a minute or 2 before post, leaving only the cancellation ability open until the first horse enters the gate. If a bettor doesn't realize s/he has an erroneous bet in that 90 seconds, then the bettor eats it. There is no downside to closing the betting 2 minutes before post. The only downside is that those that take advantage of a system that is ripe for abuse would no longer have that edge.

It's as if the horse racing industry rationalizes a lack of integrity as fairness to the bettors. It's ridiculous, and defies common sense.

[ultracapper]

An aside. Is it just me, but at first glance, I thought the handle at Santa Anita today, the opening of the fall meet, and a Friday afternoon, looked VERY light. I think the 2nd race had just a blip over $100,000 in the win pool. And it couldn't be blamed on the start of the early P4 as the pool for that wasn't even $125,000.

[porchy44]

There is a very interesting question posted at the top of another thread:

Q. "How can horse racing take advantage of the chaos in team sports?"

A. By competing.

Imo, competing means making an effort to transform racing into a superior gambling product.

Sadly, track management, horsemen, state regulators, and politicians have shown very little interest in doing that.

A few minutes ago, in R1 at Charles Town, the #10 horse Love Totem, who was the second choice at 2-1 while standing in the gate, stumbled coming out of the gate and lost the rider.

During the running of the race I glanced at the current odds on my ADW interface: #10 Love Totem was 5-2.

A glance at the final odds on my ADW interface revealed that: #10 Love Totem was 7-2.

If this were an isolated incident I wouldn't be writing about it.

But this is not an isolated incident.

Over the years this is about the eleven hundredth time I've seen the odds go up on a horse that got a compromised start.

It's painfully obvious to me that somebody somewhere is cancelling significant money on horses that get compromised starts.

Like an idiot - I'm going to contact the TRA 20/20 committee one more time.

I used the words "like an idiot" because, by now, I should know better.

You see I've contacted them several times before. And each time I've mentioned abuse of the cancel delay they've told me "that's impossible."

And even though "that's impossible" I just watched it happen again:

Charles Town R1 Fri Sept 29, 2017 horse #10 Love Totem.

2-1 second choice standing in the gate.

Came out of the gate, stumbled, lost rider.

5-2 shortly after losing the rider.

Final odds 7-2.



-jp

.

I have noticed this also. Without a doubt, bets are being cancelled. The horses always goes up after being compromised early. You would think some would go down in odds occasionally. Too bad there is no "complaint department".

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Makes you question how effective the "stop betting" button the stewards press when the race starts, or if they are a couple seconds slow to press it.

[AlsoEligible]

I've never had a "behind-the scenes" look at the world of bet-taking at the racetrack...and a thought keeps on bothering me. The horseracing industry tells us that it is necessary for the track to maintain an "after-the-bell" canceling option...in case an "erroneous" late wager needs to get canceled by a teller. We are also assured that only the CANCELING option is available after the start of the race...and in no case could a bet be made at this late time. Has it been independently investigated that this is indeed the case?

I ask because our game is encountering great economic difficulties...and great effort is made to increase the mutuel handle in our game. If a "Whale" were to appear in these troubled times, who agreed to pump a few billion dollars annually into the game's mutuel pools if only he were allowed to place his wagers a few seconds AFTER the start of the race...would the racetracks find the "integrity" to refuse his proposal?

Couple of miscellaneous thoughts, as someone who has spent several years behind those scenes.

- The delayed cancel option is pretty much a relic at this point. Oaklawn is the only track where I know it's still used, maybe a handful of others around the country. And while I'm sure there are shady clerks abusing it, I doubt it's as rampant as some people think, or enough to drop a horse from 2-1 to 7-2 that quickly.

- What would account for such a steep change in a short time is whales pumping in tens (in some cases hundreds) of thousands in the final seconds. By the time those wagers are processed by their tote....sent the host tote...factored into the last calculation of final odds...odds are sent to the tote board and ADWs....ADW pages and tote board refresh...then yeah, the race will be well underway by then.

- The industry has and continues to take steps to mitigate those late odds shifts. But as long as you allow betting up to the second gates open, and as long as you're allowing whales to pump in a huge chunk of the pool in the final few seconds...then it's physically impossible to get instantaneous final odds. You'd literally have to figure out a way to circumvent the speed of light. Considering it took decades to fix IRS rules, I doubt the NTRA is up to this task. ;)

- Whales do not have access to wager into pools after the race starts. What is more common is tracks holding up their post time to allow all of the whales to get their bets in. This is why Gulfstream never goes off on time...they're watching the handle come in, and if the pot "feels light", they'll wait for the stragglers to get their action in.

- Whales also don't have the ability to cancel their bets (at least not with the totes I've dealt with). When you're placing a thousand individual wagers at the last possible second, there's no need (or time) to cancel those bets, so totes have never bothered even providing that functionality.

- jay68802's post about testing this on terminals and getting one late bet in about 25 attempts sounds about right. I'd also wager than the one case was a judge/steward being asleep at the wheel and late hitting the button, rather than malevolent negligence.

Again, I've spent a long time "behind the scenes". This industry is terribly corrupt, and incompetent, and I have no love for it. If these kinds of abuses were going on, I would be whistle blowing from the roof-tops. But it's not happening..at least not to the extent that we're talking about in this thread. Shady tellers cancelling bets late? Sure. A vast conspiracy between whales, totes, and tracks? No.

[Cholly]

Couple of miscellaneous thoughts, as someone who has spent several years behind those scenes.


I don’t for a second doubt the sincerity of your post. But it just sounds exactly like the line we were given about tote security before the Drexel fraternity demonstrated there was no tote security. Here are three facts:
A significant portion of the betting public (majority, maybe?) believe past-posting by whales is occurring.
The industry could solve this by closing the betting in time to have odds fixed before the horses leave the gate.
The industry chooses to do nothing.

[thaskalos]

Couple of miscellaneous thoughts, as someone who has spent several years behind those scenes.

- The delayed cancel option is pretty much a relic at this point. Oaklawn is the only track where I know it's still used, maybe a handful of others around the country. And while I'm sure there are shady clerks abusing it, I doubt it's as rampant as some people think, or enough to drop a horse from 2-1 to 7-2 that quickly.

- What would account for such a steep change in a short time is whales pumping in tens (in some cases hundreds) of thousands in the final seconds. By the time those wagers are processed by their tote....sent the host tote...factored into the last calculation of final odds...odds are sent to the tote board and ADWs....ADW pages and tote board refresh...then yeah, the race will be well underway by then.

- The industry has and continues to take steps to mitigate those late odds shifts. But as long as you allow betting up to the second gates open, and as long as you're allowing whales to pump in a huge chunk of the pool in the final few seconds...then it's physically impossible to get instantaneous final odds. You'd literally have to figure out a way to circumvent the speed of light. Considering it took decades to fix IRS rules, I doubt the NTRA is up to this task. ;)

- Whales do not have access to wager into pools after the race starts. What is more common is tracks holding up their post time to allow all of the whales to get their bets in. This is why Gulfstream never goes off on time...they're watching the handle come in, and if the pot "feels light", they'll wait for the stragglers to get their action in.

- Whales also don't have the ability to cancel their bets (at least not with the totes I've dealt with). When you're placing a thousand individual wagers at the last possible second, there's no need (or time) to cancel those bets, so totes have never bothered even providing that functionality.

- jay68802's post about testing this on terminals and getting one late bet in about 25 attempts sounds about right. I'd also wager than the one case was a judge/steward being asleep at the wheel and late hitting the button, rather than malevolent negligence.

Again, I've spent a long time "behind the scenes". This industry is terribly corrupt, and incompetent, and I have no love for it. If these kinds of abuses were going on, I would be whistle blowing from the roof-tops. But it's not happening..at least not to the extent that we're talking about in this thread. Shady tellers cancelling bets late? Sure. A vast conspiracy between whales, totes, and tracks? No.

I appreciate your informed opinion on this issue...and I am comforted by the fact that no "vast conspiracy" exists between the Whales and the tracks. But I am still outraged when I see that this "terribly corrupt and incompetent" industry is still allowing these shady tellers to abuse a canceling option which shouldn't exist in the first place.

In a heavily-taxed gambling game where chaos already reigns supreme...there is no room left for shady tellers to continue with these kinds of shenanigans. It further tarnishes an already ruined reputation...IMO.

[Secondbest]

I've never had a "behind-the scenes" look at the world of bet-taking at the racetrack...and a thought keeps on bothering me. The horseracing industry tells us that it is necessary for the track to maintain an "after-the-bell" canceling option...in case an "erroneous" late wager needs to get canceled by a teller. We are also assured that only the CANCELING option is available after the start of the race...and in no case could a bet be made at this late time. Has it been independently investigated that this is indeed the case?

I ask because our game is encountering great economic difficulties...and great effort is made to increase the mutuel handle in our game. If a "Whale" were to appear in these troubled times, who agreed to pump a few billion dollars annually into the game's mutuel pools if only he were allowed to place his wagers a few seconds AFTER the start of the race...would the racetracks find the "integrity" to refuse his proposal?

No

[AstrosFan]

In a heavily-taxed gambling game where chaos already reigns supreme...there is no room left for shady tellers to continue with these kinds of shenanigans. It further tarnishes an already ruined reputation...IMO.

The tellers keep dying off, staffing levels on track are at an all time low and on the rare day new tellers are coming in i.e. a big ontrack day, then they are too young to understand the game to be "creative" like this, especially with video surveillance systems and tote system printouts from each window if need be.

Shit, most tellers have their heads down in their iPhone or in a book/newspaper etc. and most don't have any clue about the next race that's about to happen.

Last night on a trip to Mountaineer, I saw 2 tellers on the main floor and one on the second. Last week on a Thursday at Dump National in Grantville PA the teller count was 5 spanning three different levels. Do the math for that avg. :D

Anyday of the week I would rather gamble on a horse race, than visit a smoke filled casino, which give out free soft drinks to gaze over the depressed faces, playing a fixed slot machine, hoping for that desperate payout.

At least in racing I can press the ALL button and get something back or holy hell, even pass on betting a race b/c I don't like it. I couldn't sit out different hands of blackjack without getting a dirty look from fellow players or pit bosses thinking "what the hell!?"

Everyone in the casino wants that instant gratification and that's something racing will never provide.

[chiguy]

My own personal experience is that I have only seen it one time in 25+ years of working behind a window. Just last night I got stuck with a $2 ticket when I fat fingered a bet at the bell. I tried to cancel it because the patron didn't want it. I hit cancel and put it into the machine as the gates opened and got the message that the race was closed. Good news was that my mistake saved the customer $2 bucks, unfortunately my fat finger exacta was a loser as well. My honest opinion is that all this odds going down and odds going up after the race starts is all related to the computerized nature of the game now. I really believe in a day and age where the Russians can influence Americans through Social Media, then any kid can probably figure out a way to get into the system and mess around. It seems to me like we didn't see this when you had to be on track to place a wager.

[Poindexter]

Couple of miscellaneous thoughts, as someone who has spent several years behind those scenes.

- The delayed cancel option is pretty much a relic at this point. Oaklawn is the only track where I know it's still used, maybe a handful of others around the country. And while I'm sure there are shady clerks abusing it, I doubt it's as rampant as some people think, or enough to drop a horse from 2-1 to 7-2 that quickly.

- What would account for such a steep change in a short time is whales pumping in tens (in some cases hundreds) of thousands in the final seconds. By the time those wagers are processed by their tote....sent the host tote...factored into the last calculation of final odds...odds are sent to the tote board and ADWs....ADW pages and tote board refresh...then yeah, the race will be well underway by then.

- The industry has and continues to take steps to mitigate those late odds shifts. But as long as you allow betting up to the second gates open, and as long as you're allowing whales to pump in a huge chunk of the pool in the final few seconds...then it's physically impossible to get instantaneous final odds. You'd literally have to figure out a way to circumvent the speed of light. Considering it took decades to fix IRS rules, I doubt the NTRA is up to this task. ;)

- Whales do not have access to wager into pools after the race starts. What is more common is tracks holding up their post time to allow all of the whales to get their bets in. This is why Gulfstream never goes off on time...they're watching the handle come in, and if the pot "feels light", they'll wait for the stragglers to get their action in.

- Whales also don't have the ability to cancel their bets (at least not with the totes I've dealt with). When you're placing a thousand individual wagers at the last possible second, there's no need (or time) to cancel those bets, so totes have never bothered even providing that functionality.

- jay68802's post about testing this on terminals and getting one late bet in about 25 attempts sounds about right. I'd also wager than the one case was a judge/steward being asleep at the wheel and late hitting the button, rather than malevolent negligence.

Again, I've spent a long time "behind the scenes". This industry is terribly corrupt, and incompetent, and I have no love for it. If these kinds of abuses were going on, I would be whistle blowing from the roof-tops. But it's not happening..at least not to the extent that we're talking about in this thread. Shady tellers cancelling bets late? Sure. A vast conspiracy between whales, totes, and tracks? No.

The highlighted portion is all we need to know, the rest is up to the bettor's imagination. Once corrupt, always corrupt an no limits to the unscrupulous lengths one will go to seek profit. Bottom line is you unknowingly cemented why the windows need to close and final odds posted prior to off. The fact that Jeff P has noticed this phenomenon as often as he has me thinking this is likely a very serious problem. As mentioned perception is reality. Nothing you have posted convinces me that past post wagering and cancelling is not going on. You have to come up with something a lot more concrete than you have.

[AlsoEligible]

The fact that Jeff P has noticed this phenomenon as often as he has me thinking this is likely a very serious problem.

Or it's a by-product of wagering up to the bell, including large amounts of money at the last second, which result in late odds shifts on almost every single race that goes off every single day. It's really easy to cherry-pick the instances where it hurts your bet and cry foul, but anyone paying attention will see it happen on a constant basis.

Bottom line is you unknowingly cemented why the windows need to close and final odds posted prior to off.

On this we agree. The best solution is to lock betting at 0 MTP, which will mean final odds are posted well before the horses break. However, even then you would still have odds changing after the betting stops, for the reasons I already laid out. So it's not a perfect solution, and the perception of foul play will still linger. But at least it looks better than having the odds change while the horses are running.

Nothing you have posted convinces me that past post wagering and cancelling is not going on. You have to come up with something a lot more concrete than you have.

I didn't come into this thread to convince anyone, and I'm under no obligation to try and prove that something isn't happening. Maybe the industry as a whole should try to fix its perception problem, but that's not my cross to bear. Besides, the burden of proof is on the person making the accusation, and I think you need a lot more than anecdotal observations of odds shifts.

I'm just trying to lend some insider knowledge and experience to a thread that seems to be dominated by speculation. Do with it what you want, or let your imagination run wild.

[Afleet]

At my track here in Nebraska they have 3 terminals sort of stuck in the back and on days we do not have live racing are not used much. I tried for two days to get a bet in late. I would watch the start of the race and if the horse I selected broke to the front I would try to enter the bet. I was able to get 1 bet in in about 25 attempts.

you go to Horsemans? I have been there many times-its my closest OTB, except for the new one at Council Bluffs

[AltonKelsey]

Considered the limited amount of brain power and emotional energy available to the average horseplayer, I'd put this after the bell thing pretty far down on the list of things to worry about.

Then again, it's fun for some to fantasize.


Doesn't mean some INSIDER can't hack the machine as was done at Breeders Cup, but to think there's some widespread edge enjoyed by mysterious whales is just sillyness.

[jay68802]

you go to Horsemans? I have been there many times-its my closest OTB, except for the new one at Council Bluffs

If i go anymore it is to Fonner, its the nearest to my home. Once or twice a year i will go to Columbus or Lincoln.

[Ruffian1]

Considered the limited amount of brain power and emotional energy available to the average horseplayer, I'd put this after the bell thing pretty far down on the list of things to worry about.

Then again, it's fun for some to fantasize.


Doesn't mean some INSIDER can't hack the machine as was done at Breeders Cup, but to think there's some widespread edge enjoyed by mysterious whales is just sillyness.


In the Pimlico grandstand, second floor, about 4 or 5 windows down from left to right, or about 50 feet from the escalator down towards the paddock for those familiar with the track, after the break but before the bell buying and or selling took place daily for at least my last 10 years. Plain as day to see and nobody gave a damn.
There was about 3-7 seconds after the gate sprang before the bell closed the machines.

These past post games were almost exclusively done in distances races, where the break was especially important to some horses.

Also saw it happening at Charles Town when I happened to be there.

In both cases it was almost impossible NOT to see .