The Vietnam War

[Clocker]

Part 1 of "The Vietnam War", the new Ken Burns documentary, was shown on PBS last night (Sunday). It is must see TV. Part 2 tonight.

George Will's review is here, one of many raves about the show:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/will091817.php3

Many reviews in the media are by critics who have seen the full 18 hours. In addition to the historic value, I can see that it is relevant to what is going on today, especially with regard to North Korea.

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

What was Burns take on the Gulf Of Tonkin incident?

[jay68802]

What was Burns take on the Gulf Of Tonkin incident?

Watched this last night and it was a very good program. will watch tonight. They did not get to the Gulf Of Tonkin incident (or non-incident) yet. Look forward to that.

[Racetrack Playa]

PBS -episodes 1-5 available free and now @
http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam-war/watch/

[Clocker]

Nick Gillespie at reason.com has an in-depth interview with the filmmakers, Ken Burns and Lynn Novick.

Progressives are forewarned that there are things at reason.com that can make your brain hurt.

One point that Burns and Novick make in the interview is that what most Americans have learned about Vietnam is from the perspective of Americans. It is clear from the first episode that they are making a big effort to show things from the perspective of Americans and of North and South Vietnamese.


http://reason.com/reasontv/2017/09/13/vietnam-ken-burns-lynn-novick

[RunForTheRoses]

Thanks for the heads up Clocker, it was off my radar. Will most likely download and binge watch.

Very interesting history, did they start with the French and Dien Bien Phu? It has been a difficult land to control, like Afghanistan. The Chinese didn't fair well there either, remember the 1979 Sino-Viet conflict?

[Tom]

It was really god last night.
We sure screwed that one up royally.

[Clocker]

Very interesting history, did they start with the French and Dien Bien Phu? It has been a difficult land to control, like Afghanistan. The Chinese didn't fair well there either, remember the 1979 Sino-Viet conflict?

Vietnam was a French colony before it was occupied by the Japanese in WWII. A resistance group called the Viet Minh, led by Ho Chi Minh, opposed the French, and then the Japanese. The US and China supported the Viet Minh against Japan during the war.

The Viet Minh, backed by China, stepped up their fight against the French after the war, and eventually won a huge battle at Dien Bien Phu. The French decided to pull out, and peace accords "temporarily" split the country, with the Viet Minh running the north and a French supported puppet government running the south.

[Clocker]

We sure screwed that one up royally.

Shows what bipartisanship can accomplish. It took the efforts of governments under the leadership of Truman, Ike, JFK, LBJ, and Nixon to accomplish a cluster-fluck that big.

[Tom]

The only smart decision we made over there was to get out.
Funny how the first thing France did after we liberated them was to run off to deny others their liberty. We could have saved hundreds of thousands of lives if we had let the nazis keep control of France.

[ElKabong]

Episodes one thru three have been good so far. I had my doubts going in, burns first documentary that I knew of was Baseball. Awesome stuff. Everything that followed from him really sucked and in most cases were slanted politically.

He's done a good job of getting all three sides' views. US, north and south Vietnam. Going back in Vietnam history for 100 years was necessary and was well pieced together.

[Ocala Mike]

What was Burns take on the Gulf Of Tonkin incident?

Last night's episode pointed out that the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was in the mill months before the Gulf of Tonkin "incident." It was policy waiting for an excuse to put it into effect.

I was in the AF, 1964-1968, but never got to Nam. Did serve in SAC stateside, 1967-1968, and we sent our B-52's over from Pease AFB, NH to bomb North Viet Nam during Operation Arc Light.

[FantasticDan]

Episodes one thru three have been good so far. I had my doubts going in, burns first documentary that I knew of was Baseball. Awesome stuff. Everything that followed from him really sucked and in most cases were slanted politically.

Wow, you've watched "everything" he's produced since 1994 and it all "really sucked", huh? :lol: :bang:

Give us an example or two of the suckage.. :blush:

[ElKabong]

Wow, you've watched "everything" he's produced since 1994 and it all "really sucked", huh? :lol: :bang:

Give us an example or two of the suckage.. :blush:

the civil war
baseball, the second documentary. i think it was named the tenth inning.

mystery solved, off you go.

[FantasticDan]

the civil war

Ken Burns' The Civil War sucked???????

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

"Off you go" is right :blush: :D

[Clocker]

the civil war
baseball, the second documentary. i think it was named the tenth inning.

mystery solved, off you go.

That's why there are different flavors of ice cream.

I watched The Civil War twice on PBS and then bought the DVDs (as part of a PBS fund raiser).

I never watched his baseball stuff. Baseball itself is too boring to watch, let alone a documentary about baseball.
Even though I lived and breathed baseball when I was a kid.

[ElKabong]

the civil war just moved too slowly for me. like you said, different strokes for different folks.

the tenth inning was maybe too quick moving. seemed disjointed

[Tom]

So far, this series as been truly well done.

[kingfin66]

I haven't had a chance to watch it yet as I do not appear to get PBS. Is it available for viewing on the PBS website?

[Clocker]

I haven't had a chance to watch it yet as I do not appear to get PBS. Is it available for viewing on the PBS website?

The link is in post #4 in this thread.

[fast4522]

Last night's episode pointed out that the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was in the mill months before the Gulf of Tonkin "incident." It was policy waiting for an excuse to put it into effect.

I was in the AF, 1964-1968, but never got to Nam. Did serve in SAC stateside, 1967-1968, and we sent our B-52's over from Pease AFB, NH to bomb North Viet Nam during Operation Arc Light.

Thank you for your service.

[highnote]

I haven't had a chance to watch it yet as I do not appear to get PBS. Is it available for viewing on the PBS website?

pbs.org

[Clocker]

Today, Sunday, the PBS station here is running episodes end to end from mid-morning to 10PM local time.

[ElKabong]

Today, Sunday, the PBS station here is running episodes end to end from mid-morning to 10PM local time.

In addition, episode six runs tonight at 7ct.

[jms62]

the civil war
baseball, the second documentary. i think it was named the tenth inning.

mystery solved, off you go.

Meow. Meow. Here kiddy kiddy

[ElKabong]

Meow. Meow. Here kiddy kiddy

:sleeping:

Loser

[Fager Fan]

:sleeping:

Loser

:ThmbUp:

[Ocala Mike]

Final episode aired last night; very moving and poignant, especially the part about the wall. This series deserves every award and accolade going. The way it followed the dozen or so people on all sides through the years and where they are now was genius.


:ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[jimmyb]

Final episode aired last night; very moving and poignant, especially the part about the wall. This series deserves every award and accolade going. The way it followed the dozen or so people on all sides through the years and where they are now was genius.


:ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

Well said Mike.

[Tom]

Very well done series.
Seems to have pretty well covered the realities of those years.

[Greyfox]

The series exposes that the Government continually lied to the American public.
It's no wonder so many people don't trust whoever is in power in Washington today. The seeds of distrust were sewn deep in those Vietnam years.

[Clocker]

The series exposes that the Government continually lied to the American public.


One reason for that exposure at the time was that the media in Vietnam were virtually unrestrained. They went wherever they wanted, and they saw and reported a lot of things that contradicted The Narrative. The government, and especially the military, learned their lesson and didn't let that happen again.

[ElKabong]

Episode one reruns tonight

I watched the final episode this weekend, completed the entire documentary. One of the best pieces of work I've seen. Fair and balanced.

[kingfin66]

It is interesting how much people are divided in their opinions about this documentary series. I am yet to watch so I do not yet have an opinion. My father really enjoyed it, but I know other people that were less than impressed. I am looking forward to checking it out.

[ElKabong]

It is interesting how much people are divided in their opinions about this documentary series. I am yet to watch so I do not yet have an opinion. My father really enjoyed it, but I know other people that were less than impressed. I am looking forward to checking it out.

So much to like and learn from the documentary. JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Jane Fonda, John Kerry weren't slanted one way or another by the production. People interviewed that had unique opinions (and facts) were allowed to contribute and provide their perspective.

It was well done. I think you'll enjoy it. People that didnt hold your particular view on any one segment of the war or period, you come to respect their views a bit more. The documentary did a great job of letting raw honesty and emotion meet without becoming a slanted piece. That's very hard to do

[johnhannibalsmith]

Episode one reruns tonight

...

Damn, I missed this until now - naturally I think that's the only one that I missed the first time through with the DVR.

[Clocker]

The documentary did a great job of letting raw honesty and emotion meet without becoming a slanted piece. That's very hard to do

I have only seen a couple of episodes, but based on what I saw, I have to question the statement that it was not slanted. All of those who served in the military in Nam that I saw interviewed were totally opposed to the war and highly critical of our government. While that is largely justified in retrospect, many who served were, at the time, proud of their service and of doing what they saw as their patriotic duty.

Also, the portrayal of Ho Chi Minh as a kindly old grandfather figure was far from accurate. "Uncle Ho" led the Viet Minh in the war against the French during which thousands of civilians were murdered. Burns portrays him as a revolutionary nationalist, but ignores the fact that he was an avowed communist with little respect for liberty or human rights.

[ElKabong]

I have only seen a couple of episodes, but based on what I saw, I have to question the statement that it was not slanted. All of those who served in the military in Nam that I saw interviewed were totally opposed to the war and highly critical of our government. While that is largely justified in retrospect, many who served were, at the time, proud of their service and of doing what they saw as their patriotic duty.

Also, the portrayal of Ho Chi Minh as a kindly old grandfather figure was far from accurate. "Uncle Ho" led the Viet Minh in the war against the French during which thousands of civilians were murdered. Burns portrays him as a revolutionary nationalist, but ignores the fact that he was an avowed communist with little respect for liberty or human rights.

Duly noted, but please see the entire series. Things begin to shift and change, more hawk types appear and their views and angles are heard more. Like any eighteen hour or so documentary, it has to flow. Both sides get their views across.

Remember my first post in the thread, I was reserving judgement. Mainly because it seemed to have a liberal slant early on. As time went by Ho Chi Minh was properly exposed for the person he really was, as was Jane Fonda and others I'd mentioned above. And, as a good documentary does, you hear from some people that were Pro Jane, Pro Ho Chi Minh, Pro Kerry, Pro Jfk, LBJ, Nixon. The facts were laid out, it was for the viewer to decide. You also hear from people with opposing views...And I really appreciated that.

Others may have a different take, but I thought the facts, presidential tapes, and first hand accounts were well laid out.

[ElKabong]

Clocker,

Didn't want to type a mostpost length book in the post above, but I wanted to address your comment about 'all those interviewed who served in Vietnam were anti govt'.

In the next to last episode, or Maybe it was the last episode, you'll hear Nixon in a taped conversation with Kissinger basically saying 'we are handing this over to the south Vietnamese, I'm washing my hands of this mess. I have no faith in them holding off the viet cong, but that's their problem '

The next day he addresses the nation saying all is well, our initiatives in Vietnam will be successfully accomplished. The republic of the south was going to continue, no problems

Two things...
One, he knew Vietnam was a lost cause, said so himself on tape. He lied to the American people, no way to sugar coat it

Two, his tone in the tape would forever be taken as 'ah screw the fifty eight thousand plus that died in this war. They mean nothing, I'm handing it to the communists in the north

I served shortly after Vietnam, the above sentiment was universal among the still active personnel that fought in that war. What you saw in the first two episodes were real emotions from vets. Most were proud to serve, proud of their country, but knew they were betrayed and lied to every step of the way dating back to the early sixties

Enjoy the documentary, if your take on it is different from mine it's natural. Different people will have different takes.

[Clocker]

Duly noted, but please see the entire series. Things begin to shift and change, more hawk types appear and their views and angles are heard more. Like any eighteen hour or so documentary, it has to flow. Both sides get their views across.


Perhaps I will give it another shot some time. But I did watch the first three episodes, and I found it to be slanted and lost interest. If it is indeed more balanced later, that is a big film-making flaw on Burns' part to have some people lose interest early.

[ElKabong]

I know what you mean. There was a former reporter named Galloway that was one of the interviewed guys that was overly negative in his opinions concerning the war. I'd seen him on another documentary, I thought 'oh shit, not him again. He's already been on other documentaries on Vietnam, his delivery is emotional and soap opera,style. Screw this, couldn't Burns find new Vets to interview?

Galloway thankfully fades away after episode five or so. Other views are exposed and offered.

Jane Fonda was not handled with care thankfully, other documentaries I've seen pass over her calling for our POWs to be tried as war criminals. This documentary highlights that fact. She doesn't come across well, neither does John Kerry for his look at me speeches while we had POWs held captive and were being tortured daily.

[Tom]

I just heard Jane is still alive.

Too bad.