2004 DFR Expo On DVD

[IRISHLADSTABLE]

FEATURING
Ed Bain
Andrew Beyer
Caton Bredar
Tom Brohamer
Jerry Brown
Joe Cardello
Mark Cramer
Steven Crist
Steve Davidowitz
Bruno De Julio
Cary Fotias
Brad Free
Len Friedman
Ross Gallo
Dan Illman
Ken Kirchner
Steve Klein
Mike Labriola
Dave Litfin
Frank Lyons
Jim Mazur
Barry Meadow
Noel Michaels
Harvey Pack
Jerry Porcelli
Jim Quinn
Tim Smith
Lauren Stich
Lee Tomlinson
Mike Watchmaker
Mike Welsch
Maury Wolff

2004 HORSEPLAYERS EXPO COLLECTOR'S EDITION DVD SET - Over 15 hours of strategies and insights from the biggest names in the game are now available in one package for the first time. These DVD's feature a wealth of information on the hottest topics in Thoroughbred handicapping, presented by some of the most respected names in the sport. Preview video clips and purchase online today. [Click Here]

D I S C 1
The Supertrainers (51:31)
Track Bias: Myths vs. Reality (95:00)
NTRA Players Panel (73:00)

D I S C 2
Exotic Wagering Strategies Roundtable (74:00)
Contemporary Pedigree Plays (61:00)
Making Your Own Pace Figures and Profiting From Them (84:00)

D I S C 3
Speed Figure Methodologies (74:49)
Trip Handicapping (57:42)
Tournament Do's and Don'ts (51:31)
Reliable Methods for Identifying Live Long Shots (60:00)

D I S C 4
Nuances of Grass Racing (59:58)
Form Cycle Analysis (61:49)
Trainer Patterns and Profit (56:30)
Understanding Workouts: Visual Impressions and Trainer Intent (62:00)

PREVIEW HORSPLAYERS EXPO DVD SET TODAY - View a clip from each Horseplayers Expo DVD before purchasing. [Click Here]

Jimmy

[TravisVOX]

Awfully expensive.

[sjk]

Doesn't seem like much to me. I invested the time and money in attending the Expo last February and I thought it was well worth it.

Even if you don't agree with what you hear or if you consider some presentations restatements of the obvious it can give you an opportunity to rethink your own process.

I made a few changes after the trip; it doesn't take much of an increase in your ROI to recoup the cost.

[Speed Figure]

That's not a lot of money for 4 handicapping dvds. Looks like a great buy.

[cj]

What's the price?

[kitts]

I already bought Disc 2-seems like a good deal. Just did not desire the other stuff but I think it is a resonable price.

[Speed Figure]

$75 bucks.

[BillW]

Originally posted by Speed Figure
$75 bucks.

Is that the price for the set?

[Speed Figure]

$75 for the set or $25 each.

[BillW]

Quite a few years ago they were selling audio tapes for $300 for the set. Certainly the trand is positive. $75 is not a bad price and a good alternative to attending.

Bill

[JimG]

Originally posted by BillW
Quite a few years ago they were selling audio tapes for $300 for the set. Certainly the trand is positive. $75 is not a bad price and a good alternative to attending.

Bill

I told my wife the set would make a nice birthday present or XMAS stocking stuffer for me. Hopefully, she will agree :)

Jim

[Speed Figure]

Originally posted by JimG
I told my wife the set would make a nice birthday present or XMAS stocking stuffer for me. Hopefully, she will agree :)

Jim I did the same thing jim! :cool:

[Tom]

Got my set this weekend. $75 was too low to ignore.
Got the full set and am starting to watch tonight.
Will post some reviews this weekend.:p

[Niko]

I was going to buy this week, let us know what the reviews are. I thought $80 was very reasonable.

[Tom]

Quinn's presentation on turf ratings is excellent-I have used this method for years wtih good success-especially at Saratoga.

[andicap]

Is Mike Labriola the guy from A+ who's on this board?
If not, who is he?

[Fastracehorse]

Thanx,

fffastt

[Speed Figure]

http://users.rcn.com/aplus/indext.htm

Fast,

Here's the link. I don't know if the program is any good.

[Dan Montilion]

I intend to purchase the Expo DVD's. However, I am curious if there are any of the hand outs that usually accompany the live presentations supplied with the DVD's.

Dan Montilion

[empire]

dvd package you receive the 4 dvd's with no documents included - watched the first dvd last night and it's ok.

[Tom]

Check DRF website-I downloaded a bunch of presentaion materials a while ago-might still be available there.

[thelyingthief]

first off, the sound quality is badly compromised; much of the information is entirely opinion, and/or so general as to be only moderately of use, and that to those newly attracted to handicapping. i have not viewed them all, so i am not implying that none of the material lacks interest, since i don't know. however, of the two discs i have thus far viewed, let me warn you that the discussions are wholly vapid; both the bias discussion, and the seminar on exotic wagering are, at least to any developed player, insipid--in fact, one attendee arises and expresses his frustration with the impertinence of it all. beyer's discussion on trainers reduces to whining about the dominance of certain trainers, and insinuating the influence of drugs in the racing markets. well, duh, andy, ya think? and exactly what an hour long presentation by the NTRA president and crew has to do with assisting one's handicapping sure's a mystery to me.

worse and still worse follows: the brohammer/fotias pace discussion is banal. i remain completely bemused by brohammer's adoption of the quirin pace/speed numbers as a valid vehicle for betting decisions. anybody here enlightened to learn that a horse forced to over run early decelerates rapidly at the end, this discussion is for you. some science, huh? fotias, beyond being quite secretive about HIS numbers as you probably already know, is gratingly nasal in his presentation, and tiring.


in sum--again, i havent completed viewing the material--but given the rather lackluster audio recording and the sophomoric retread of well traveled handicapping paths prevalent in the material i have watched, i'd have to give this stuff a resounding thumb's down.

i hope this helps.

[sjk]

tlt,

I hope you weren't expecting the keys to the mint for $75. Since I spend 98% of my time on autopilot, I found the rehashing well worth while. If you are expecting breakthrough thinking you probably won't find it in the public domain.

[Fastracehorse]

Thank you.



fffastt

[cj]

This from Jerry Brown at the Thorograph site, apparently we aren't getting the whole seminar.

Watched it, and found that I remembered about half of what happened on the panel. They edited it heavily, and took out a lot of the conflict between Len and me-- including the whole "Changing Track Speeds" presentation, which can be found on this website. I'll be interested in hearing the reaction of others.

[Lance]

Any editing of Jerry Brown is the very best addition by subtraction.

[takeout]

Thanks for the heads up, CJ. I saw them “flaking” the track once and didn’t know what it was. First time I ever noticed them sealing and harrowing at the same time.

Can’t figure why they would edit ANYTHING. Difference of opinion is what makes the world go ‘round and the odds go up and down. I thought hearing knowledgeable people speak to all sides of an issue was what it was all about. Guess not.

They had some lively discussion the first year Ragozin attended and didn’t edit anything. I know it wasn’t run by DRF then but I wonder why they feel the need to edit stuff now? :confused:

Lance - Why do you say that?

[Fastracehorse]

I appreciate your candid synopsis.

Sounds like expensive drivel.

fffastt

[Lance]

takeout,

He is obsessed with Ragozin, and he has been consumed by hatred. There were days when he made 20 or 30 unwelcome posts a day on the Rags website, which is why Ragozin changed the format.

[ceejay]

Originally posted by takeout
Thanks for the heads up, CJ. I saw them “flaking” the track once and didn’t know what it was. First time I ever noticed them sealing and harrowing at the same time.

Can’t figure why they would edit ANYTHING. Difference of opinion is what makes the world go ‘round and the odds go up and down. I thought hearing knowledgeable people speak to all sides of an issue was what it was all about. Guess not.

They had some lively discussion the first year Ragozin attended and didn’t edit anything. I know it wasn’t run by DRF then but I wonder why they feel the need to edit stuff now? :confused:

Lance - Why do you say that?

I was there (but havn't seen the video yet). I take no sides in the discusson but I can understand why they would edit out part of the Brown/Ragozin exchange. I thought that it really digressed into a "pissing contest."

The presentation on "changing track speeds" should have been left in. It was interesting, informative, and, IMO on point.

[takeout]

Lance,

Interesting. Didn’t I read somewhere that they were partners at one time? If so, any idea what caused the split?

[Lance]

Brown used to work for Ragozin, but he did not make figures for him. The split was supposedly due to a financial dispute over a stable Brown was managing. Brown was using Ragozin's figures to manage his horses, and Brown and Ragozin could not agree on how to divvy up the money. Brown then decided to go out on his own and market his own figures to horsemen he had taught to use Ragozin's figures. From there he started marketing far and wide, as did Ragozin at about the same time. Before that the Sheets were largely for private use: betting and managing horses. I should add that the above is Brown's version of the story. I have not heard Ragozin's.

[takeout]

Originally posted by Lance
I should add that the above is Brown's version of the story. I have not heard Ragozin's.
Thanks. I’m surprised Ragozin didn’t touch on it somewhere in his book.

[Lance]

Ragozin's strategy has been to ignore Brown as much as possible. Brown's strategy has been to make that impossible by making as much noise as possible.

[Derek2U]

Honestly, they both stink. Predictably, of course. What happens
when you act like you know everything? You keep on pretending
that you did well when in fact you LOST big dollars. I went to
a great business school & was taught to revere science --- only
because IT can best answer MOST questions, but NOT every 1.
But to have ZERO science & no art --well thats way too steep.

[Marc At DRF]

Thelyingthief wrote:

"first off, the sound quality is badly compromised;"

We've heard this complaint from exactly no one, except for Thelyingthief. I just checked the DVDs out in my office; sound levels were perfect.

Thelyingthief sure reads like a guy with an axe to grind, but hey, I'm on the DRF payroll, so certainly I should be taken with a grain of salt.

If Thelyingthief or anyone else is having problems with sound levels, please e-mail me at mattenb@drf.com and I'll arrange for you to send me your sound-deficient DVDs back, and I'll get you a new one.

[thelyingthief]

in the past month i have purchased from the DRF

a. fotias' book, Blinkers Off,

b. cardello's Speed to Spare

c. the DVD set i have reviewed

and, last but not least,

i am an ongoing subscriber to unlimited downloads of the form.


in some sense, mark, you might say i pay for your spaghetti. so, being a loyal customer and all, i do not think i overstep my bounds when i complain about some product or another that fails to measure up to my hopefully rational standards. now, should i become irrational, and wonder why the DRF marshalls together the same lusterful band of authors and pundits, and markets for the public's edification handicapping methodologies and strategies that fail to make any substantial money; or should i muse on the DRF's unwillingness to provide historical data, block the hard copy of alternative views of the charts, provide csv files that end in .somethingoranother rather than .txt for dbase migration--maybe you could say i have an axe to grind, as you do.

however, i don't make those complaints. i don't complain when virtually every single concept mainstreamed in racing's journalism, e.g. track profiles, energy, sustained pace, and velocity, are pirated without so much as a reference to their creator. no, sir, i stifle my gorge, let the DRF glorify the pirates who do it, line them up on a podium as if they were gods, i say, let me worship these moral pygmies, i say. i do, and will continue to mute my distaste when men, paid to provide information and insight in such situ's as the EXPO, refer flippantly to their published works if questioned for meatier fare than the marzapan of their opinion. i dutifully promise to stifle my dyspepsia, because i expect nothing more nor less than hypocrisy when dealing with my fellow man, and particularly with those who search so unflinchingly for the limelight--and those who direct the lights their way.

because i realize i am a lying thief, and really have no right to the exceptions i take. let them take my cash, hurray for pretensive advertising and the marketing ploy. a lying thief deserves the snide, so snide me please: but i tell you, and i advise prospective buyers, there is nothing new, absolutely nothing new, in those dvids worth the 80 dollars you must pay.

now if mark's got a problem with that, too damned bad. i paid the money, and i'll express my judgment with or without your insinuations, thank you very much.

take your money, folks, the eighty dollars burning a hole in your pocket, and wager it. at least you'll have some oppurtunity for profit; buying these dvds offers you none at all.

caveat emptor.

[Marc At DRF]

"so, being a loyal customer and all, i do not think i overstep my bounds when i complain about some product or another that fails to measure up to my hopefully rational standards."

regarding rational standards, you've complained about the sound quality of the DVDs. I soon expect to receive a private e-mail from you, as I have not so far, so we can arrange to exchange this poor DVD for a better-sounding DVD, or even a refund, once we of course confirm the audio issues you write of. Given your rationality, we look forward to clearing that up right away.

"now, should i become irrational, and wonder why the DRF marshalls together the same lusterful band of authors and pundits, and markets for the public's edification handicapping methodologies and strategies that fail to make any substantial money;"

Regarding the Expo speakers, it sounds like they weren't for you. With this in mind, I'm a bit confused-- upon receipt of the DVD, was that the first time you saw any of these people speak, or read any of their work? In other words, you bought Fotias's book (which we did not put out, but are one of a few distributors of). Presumably, you did not like it, based on what you've said about him in this thread. You then went out and bought the DVD set? I'm just trying to figure out why you bought the DVDs at all. It would seem incredibly obvious to you-- in advance of purchase-- that there would be little to nothing there for you... despite the others in this thread who have praised its content.

"or should i muse on the DRF's unwillingness to provide historical data,"

?


"block the hard copy of alternative views of the charts,"
?

"provide csv files that end in .somethingoranother rather than .txt for dbase migration--"

A bit over my head, but my impression is more sophisticated customers of our CSV files have no problem with this. That said, as we're looking to launch various Formulator upgrades in the next year, we discussed multiple formats for the CSV files yesterday, so this is something that will be addressed.

"maybe you could say i have an axe to grind,"

Rather blatantly, yes.

"however, i don't make those complaints."

You just did.


"line them up on a podium as if they were gods, i say, let me worship these moral pygmies, i say."

Wow, this is pretty over-the-top, no? We're talking about a bunch of guys sitting on panels in a hotel conference room. We're talking about a pretty well-received event, in which the vast majority of those who attended seemed to appreciate it.

"but i tell you, and i advise prospective buyers, there is nothing new, absolutely nothing new, in those dvids worth the 80 dollars you must pay."


Maybe not for you, but you seem to lack the context to say: Not for me, but others here clearly like it, so maybe you will benefit from it.

"and i'll express my judgment with or without your insinuations, thank you very much."

No insinuations necessary. It's clear where you stand.

[Tom]

I'm haveing a good time watching these DVDs on my computer at night while I am capping tomorrow's races. Learned a few things I suspect will help me get that extra winner or two a week.
Found CAry Foitas/Tom Brohamer session very good and added to my form cycle methods. Did anyone think for a minute Cary was going to reveal his method of making his pace figures for $80? But he did give some insights into how he goes about it, which is a different way from Brohammer and Quinn. After paying hundreds of dollars for sets of tapes in previous years, I was very happy with the DVD package prices so low.
Tip of the ole straw hat to DRF on this product.

[kingfin66]

Originally posted by Marc At DRF
"so, being a loyal customer and all, i do not think i overstep my bounds when i complain about some product or another that fails to measure up to my hopefully rational standards."

regarding rational standards, you've complained about the sound quality of the DVDs. I soon expect to receive a private e-mail from you, as I have not so far, so we can arrange to exchange this poor DVD for a better-sounding DVD, or even a refund, once we of course confirm the audio issues you write of. Given your rationality, we look forward to clearing that up right away.

"now, should i become irrational, and wonder why the DRF marshalls together the same lusterful band of authors and pundits, and markets for the public's edification handicapping methodologies and strategies that fail to make any substantial money;"

Regarding the Expo speakers, it sounds like they weren't for you. With this in mind, I'm a bit confused-- upon receipt of the DVD, was that the first time you saw any of these people speak, or read any of their work? In other words, you bought Fotias's book (which we did not put out, but are one of a few distributors of). Presumably, you did not like it, based on what you've said about him in this thread. You then went out and bought the DVD set? I'm just trying to figure out why you bought the DVDs at all. It would seem incredibly obvious to you-- in advance of purchase-- that there would be little to nothing there for you... despite the others in this thread who have praised its content.

"or should i muse on the DRF's unwillingness to provide historical data,"

?


"block the hard copy of alternative views of the charts,"
?

"provide csv files that end in .somethingoranother rather than .txt for dbase migration--"

A bit over my head, but my impression is more sophisticated customers of our CSV files have no problem with this. That said, as we're looking to launch various Formulator upgrades in the next year, we discussed multiple formats for the CSV files yesterday, so this is something that will be addressed.

"maybe you could say i have an axe to grind,"

Rather blatantly, yes.

"however, i don't make those complaints."

You just did.


"line them up on a podium as if they were gods, i say, let me worship these moral pygmies, i say."

Wow, this is pretty over-the-top, no? We're talking about a bunch of guys sitting on panels in a hotel conference room. We're talking about a pretty well-received event, in which the vast majority of those who attended seemed to appreciate it.

"but i tell you, and i advise prospective buyers, there is nothing new, absolutely nothing new, in those dvids worth the 80 dollars you must pay."


Maybe not for you, but you seem to lack the context to say: Not for me, but others here clearly like it, so maybe you will benefit from it.

"and i'll express my judgment with or without your insinuations, thank you very much."

No insinuations necessary. It's clear where you stand.

A fairly solid example of how the DRF treats its customers. The 'Thief gives his honest opinion of the DRF product at a forum in no way associated with DRF. But here comes DRF to attack their customer in public and snidely state that they must have an axe to grind. Rather than simply stopping at the offer to exchange or refund the product (I didn't see where The 'thief asked for either) they elect to issue a diatribe against their own customer. For those of you who are DRF customers, I really don't know how you put up with it. I sure hope Marc is just a rogue, arrogant employee of the DRF and not their marketing/customer service rep. Marc, does your employer know that you come into public forums and malign their supposedly valued customers?

By the way The Lying Thief, if you would add capital letters to your otherwise excellent posts, I would put you right up their with Andicap with regard to writing skills. I don't always agree with you, but will always take the time to read your stuff. That response rant was Dennis Miller-esque in its biting tone. Are you Dennis?

[PaceAdvantage]

Lyingthief, what about those who are relatively new to the game? Would the DVDs be appropriate for those just starting out?

Maybe it's old news to you, but perhaps there are others in this world who will find them useful.

I didn't buy the DVDs, because I am very familiar with many of the names featured on the DVDs. I knew that for me, it wouldn't be worth the money.

However, rewind about 17 years ago (of course they didn't have DVDs back then...lol), and I would have eagerly purchased them.

I'm curious to know, lyingthief, what exactly it is you expected from the DVDs? You seem like a pretty savvy guy. You've been around the block. You've read the books, you know the authors. What were you looking for?

Usually, when people give a speech, or a lecture, they talk about that with which they have expert knowledge. If you are already familiar with the speaker, then you must realize you will have a pretty good idea what they are going to lecture about....and what will wind up on the DVDs.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

PA,

I think it is a bad idea to learn the basics/fundamentals of the game from mainly people with agendas/trying to sell something/themselves, or writers/authors who rely on that income to pay the bills instead of being able to suffice by actually winning. While it may be a time saving short-cut early on, it probably will lead to misconceptions and the reliance upon their lack of imaginaton that can take a lifetime to overcome.

Also, IMO, I think that DRF Marc was out of line. TLT gave his opinion of the DVD set and I can't understand why Marc had to include the statement below in his reply.
Thelyingthief sure reads like a guy with an axe to grind, but hey, I'm on the DRF payroll, so certainly I should be taken with a grain of salt.

[thelyingthief]

First, i thank insidethepylons, kingfin, (who, being a degenerate's degenerate, is my kinda guy), and the moderator for their kind words.

As to the questions posed in PA's post, I don't believe I could state an answer any better or more succinct than insidethepylons':

"While it may be a time saving short-cut early on, it probably will lead to misconceptions and the reliance upon their lack of imaginaton that can take a lifetime to overcome."

There's an odd dichotomy here. On the one hand, I don't WANT the public any better educated than they are; on the other, I am exasperated by the education they receive. My reaction to the Expo discs belongs in this latter category. I don't see how these highly abbreviated introductions to the authors' methods and instruction can be of the remotest assist to a new handicapper: does Beyer's warnings about the use of performance enhancing drugs and the impact of the super trainers (as he calls them), assist the struggling handicapper? I know by way of experience that we players all too often and all too readily have recourse to frustrated allegations of "illegal" manipulation of one kind or another when our handicapping goes to pot. So, when one of the most respected of our authors underscores one of these habitual denials with his insinuations, I think he may well add legitimacy to an otherwise hardly conscionable excuse for failure. Will the neophyte be served by this, or disserved?

Likewise, of what use is an emotionally laden exchange between speed figure mandarins (which occured at the Expo, and which has been spoken of in other posts), when it introduces doubt about which is the real and proper method to pursue--and if the student fails in one or the other, which he will most likely do, is his failure himself or his method? Will he become an addict of the almighty "number", like the alchemists of old, who spent entire lifetimes in search of the one true stone that would transform lead to gold? Derek2U's comment about "no Science and no Art" tells here: the untutored have neither, and after a season or two spent calculating variants, he will wonder if anyone has.

The introduction to these dvd's runs remotely like this: dedicated to bringing you the knowledge and power to succeed as a handicapper. After this fine preamble, the narrator says "Good Luck!". But if I bring you knowledge and power what need have you of "luck'? And this is the theme of these dvds, it seems to me, lots of opinions, little to no substantiation, and all of it somehow imparting in a most subtle, but to an alert intelligence, most emphatic doubt about an auditor's ability to succeed.

Now, I recall meeting Barry Meadow at a race book a number of years ago. We exchanged pleasantries, and as afficianodoes of this game do, turned to discussion of our methods, and our performance. When I quoted my ROI, percentage wins, and various other similar factoidial foofa, he gazed at me with disbelief and distrust, because my figures were so outlandishly exceptional. His comments began and ended with the habitual so and so many favorites, second favorites, etc. so well known to us all. However, those statistics were and are derived from categories too universal to be of use to a player. How many know the statistics for maidens? For maidens in January at SAx vs. maidens in June at HOL? For maidens with such and such profile of horses, e.g. 4 y.o.s and up, the majority coming off layoffs, etc.? What is the proper handicapping attack on those races? How will the ongoing erosion in the horse population affect one's attacks? These are things to which the statistician is oblivious--and accounts for his very poor efforts at the windows.

What I think, to sum it all up, is that these authors, participants, and talk/expo circuit luminaries are teaching you to lose. That winning is a lonely business. When I hear mention of the willingness to share so touted in the experienced by the uninitiated and the confused, I remember the secrecy of the winners I know. I remember that fellow in Hong Kong who makes 25% ROI, and will not divulge a shred of his game. And what I mostly think is, it is far more important to believe in one's capacity to succeed than any other attribute that a horseplayer may possess--and which is the most unerring target of these scholars of the game, it seems to me.

P.S. My critique of these dvds was for the participants of this bbs, who are a generally experienced and well schooled bunch. It was not intended for flegling ears in any fashion.

[kingfin66]

TheLyingThief,

Damn, your posts keep getting better and better. Thanks for the caps too.

"And what I mostly think is, it is far more important to believe in one's capacity to succeed than any other attribute that a horseplayer may possess--and which is the most unerring target of these scholars of the game, it seems to me."

Now having some type of edge is also important, but the above statement is very poignant.

[Fastracehorse]

...........And I'm not jumping on any bandwagon:

I whole-heartedly concur with thelyingthief.

I literally, and I mean literally, get sick to my stomach when DRF touts their own handicappers in the manner in which they do.

Please. Enough already. The form is a good product.

Did you know that at one time: DRF handicappers like Brad Free were doing a top-pick ROI on their selections - in the form??

They quicky put that too bed.

fffastt

[JustMissed]

Hey, maybe you guys need a faster "Time Machine" so you can be at all the races at one time and make exact trip notes and "your own" charts.

Give us a break dudes, if your loosing, your loosing, don't blame it on someone else or something else.

If you don't like DRF, or Bris or TSN or whatever else is out there, then make your own trip notes.

The same info is available to all of us.

JM