Smarty Bashers Arriving Daily

[KingChas]

Here we go.After the Derby I posted a thread "Smarty Worthy".It was about certain big name "horse people"who didn't feel Smarty was that great.I recieved a verbal tirade-Who said that-yor full of BS-you are a gossip columnist-1 guy even wanted all the names of these "horse people".Well now that all the Smarty Bashers are coming out of the closet,I see how true this thread was.Except now its not the media,trainers or jocks that actually raced against Smarty,they know better, it is the public.Look at the current(as I write) PA poll.17and1/2=(figures) of 100 feel Smarty was most overated 3 yr old ever.Be real-Empire Maker and Fusaichi Pegasus were predicted to win the TC(DUDS), before the Derby.Smarty wasn't until after the Preakness.As for Arazi 1 big race as a 2yr old.What a joke.Smarty lost 1 race in his life by a half a length.I wish the trainer would have said "he stepped on a needle-he threw a shoe-he had an abcess-he bled through lasix- he swallowed his tongue-didn't take to the track, after the Belmont.But he didn't,he had as much class as Smarty Jones. Perhaps then Smarty wouldn't have been labled a overrated-over hyped- average-who'd he beat??-not so great 3 year old.

[peakpros]

I think the backlash against Smarty has nothing to do with the horse. It has to do with the BS the owners threw around.



I happen to agree with Bill Handleman who writes a few lines about the "ham and eggers" today in his APP column:

http://www.app.com/app/story/0,21625,1022531,00.html

[RXB]

So I guess you are a Smarty-basher basher.

I don't vote in these polls. If I did, obviously Arazi did less as a 3YO than the other nominees.

What gets me, though, is how anything less than "Smarty is the greatest horse that ever lived" is construed by his backers as Smarty-bashing.

He won two Grade 1 3YO races, and against rather modest opposition even by early season 3YO standards. Pardon me if I don't compare this achievement to Affirmed and Spectacular Bid combining for 27 Grade 1 wins against more formidable competition.

My 'overhyped' comment has to do with the ridiculous nature of the racing industry and the way it subverts the long-term health of the sport (and the horses) by making younger, inferior animals the stars instead of the more mature (read: superior) older horses. Invariably, it seems, some early maturing horse is hyped as the next great thing, and invariably the horse is finished after a brief career.

Fusaichi Pegasus, then Point Given, then Empire Maker, and now Smarty. All hyped to the moon. Only Point Given won more than three Grade 1's. And between them, they ran a total of six post-TC races. Do you think that this is good for the game?

[TOOZ]

Let's be logical.

1. There is no altruism in racing.
2. Servis and the Chapman's owe nothing to nobody.
3. If the deal wasn't signed, the story would be different.
4. The only "public horse" would be one owned by the public.
5. We all would have taken the money and run, probably sooner.
6. In a few months, having the BC at Lone Star will be a bigger
story than not having SJ in the BC.
7. Just because he took the Ark. route, doesn't mean he wasn't a
special animal. Purge isn't doing that bad.
8. Next year it will be some other horse.

[KingChas]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RXB


What gets me, though, is how anything less than "Smarty is the greatest horse that ever lived" is construed by his backers as Smarty-bashing.

He won two Grade 1 3YO races, and against rather modest opposition even by early season 3YO standards. Pardon me if I don't compare this achievement to Affirmed and Spectacular Bid combining for 27 Grade 1 wins against more formidable competition.(EOQ).

RXB,
I don't understand this constant by his backers-"Smarty is the greatest horse that ever lived".I follow horseracing everyday.I haven't heard anyone say this.I'm a Smarty fan,I'm not saying it.??????-As for the competiton he faced isn't it a little early to pass judgement on these 3 yr olds?I really think you just dislike this horse(Smarty), for whatever your reasons.

[RXB]

No, Chas, I didn't dislike the horse. In fact, I rarely bet Triple Crown races, and this year was no exception, so I was free to be sentimental and cheer for a horse without any self-interest. Guess who was my pick.

I wanted Smarty to win the Derby because it would be a great win for the underdogs. He did. I wanted him to win the Preakness. He did. But the weakness of the opposition in those races was so apparent that I just couldn't get as enthused about his victories as many other people were.

[KingChas]

RXB,My point is any 3 yr old horse undefeated through the Preakness deserves to be hyped.As fo over-hyped I agree this is spurred on by the media-Ala- assinine comments "I expect Smarty to win by 20 lenghts".As for Smarty we do not know if he would have gone on to be (???1???) of the greatest ever.1 of the greatest not greatest.We will never know.

[kenwoodallpromos]

My poll pick was FP, because he just darted in the spotlight and out very fast; not a lot of great offspring yet.
At least since the TC began as a a series there has never beewn a level playing field to judghe by because of asll the various training patterns, maturity rates, track profiles, and competition. So I do not believe excessive bashing is ever called for.
I also believe that if the Belmont was shorter or farther along in the year many years' results would be different, especially with a 50% reduction in the average number of races a horse runs in a year since the 1960's.
The only reason I see for less races is harder tracks therefore more styraiun on the legs.
It is possible that a deeper track in Fl may be the main reason Tom Schell's claims can do great with his great training of older horses.

[cj]

ken,

The tracks are not harder. They actually have much more cushion now than they did in the 1970s. This is one reason track records stand for so long sometimes. The top 3 reasons for less starts per horse:

drugs
drugs
drugs

[RXB]

Yes, it's the droogs.

[CryingForTheHorses]

If I had a horse that made what Smarty did, I would FOREVER be grateful.
Wouldnt matter if he couldnt run or breed. Id have him stuffed like TRIGGER running on his own track in my living room

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
ken,

The tracks are not harder. They actually have much more cushion now than they did in the 1970s. This is one reason track records stand for so long sometimes. The top 3 reasons for less starts per horse:

drugs
drugs
drugs


CJ..Please back up these words,DRUGS DRUGS DRUGS.. I find this interesting that you say this.WOULD love to hear your thoughts on how you think this?..Thanks

[cj]

I think we are breeding more and more unsound horses due to the proliferation of race day medication. Horses who never would have been allowed to race 30 years ago turn into to stars today and pass these traits on through the breeding shed. Thus, horses are not as sound and not able to run as many times per year.

We are not breeding sound animals like we did in the past.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
I think we are breeding more and more unsound horses due to the proliferation of race day medication. Horses who never would have been allowed to race 30 years ago turn into to stars today and pass these traits on through the breeding shed. Thus, horses are not as sound and not able to run as many times per year.

We are not breeding sound animals like we did in the past.

This STILL hasnt got any merit with me CJ..PLEASE explain to me WHAT drugs you are talking about?....Horses arent bred unsound!!..ITS todays trainer that are breaking these horses down..Gone is the OLD school training methods.Its VERY easy to sit back and be a armchair trainer blaming loss's on dumb crap like drugs

[cj]

I'm talking about Lasix and Bute and whatever other "legal" drugs are out there. They allow horses to run through pain and injury.

Who said anything about "blaming losses" on drugs. I'm talking about why horses don't start as often today as they did in the old days. Most of today's star sires and broodmares raced on raceday medications. Without these drugs, many horse's would never have become stars and would never have been bred. Today's horses don't run nearly as often and are far less durable. To me, the connection seems obvious. Where am I wrong?

[cj]

Just to get this off my chest, you try to come across as some genuine expert trainer. I'm sure you do a good job, but lets not get carried away. You don't even get your name listed as the trainer in the track program.

[KingChas]

Woulda.Coulda,Shoulda?---read http://espn.go.com/horse/columns/misc/1850946.html

It's up to history now to judge Smarty Jones the race horse. Anyone taking a closer look at his career will need to evaluate not only the hype he created but his record. It was good, but hardly worthy of placement alongside the all-time greats of this game. After all, he won all of two Grade I stakes races, even if they were the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness, and just three graded races over all. He clearly didn't accomplish nearly enough on the racetrack to merit inclusion alongside some of the greatest horse the sport has ever known.

That doesn't mean it couldn't have happened.

"I look at pictures of him and see how he was still immature and still putting it all together," trainer John Servis said. "He might have turned out to be one of the best of all time. Unfortunately, people will never be able to see that."

No, they won't. A star flashed before our eyes, dazzled us and said goodbye, leaving us wanting much, much more. It's a shame. It's horse racing

[TOOZ]

Talk about having a Smarty Jones jones!

[KingChas]

That story sums up my thread.As a Smarty fan I can't predict what the future held either way.But the Smarty bashers can.Some person claimed Smarty was retired before he was exposed as a phony,(I kinda think he was exposed -like-world wide-duh), he also claimed Smarty would be a guaranteed dud in the breeding shed.The Smarty bashers must be related to Nostradomus .Perhaps they can give me the winners of all the upcoming races for the rest of this year at Saratoga too?

[TOOZ]

"to all those people who discovered horse racing because they liked the story of the little chestnut from the small-time track who had so much heart and ability". Man, am I sick of that cliche for the last 4 months. People don't live in caves. The only people that don't know what horse racing is haven't been born yet.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
Just to get this off my chest, you try to come across as some genuine expert trainer. I'm sure you do a good job, but lets not get carried away. You don't even get your name listed as the trainer in the track program.

MY MY CJ arent We touchy..If you RESEARCH ALL my posts YOU WILL see why I am NOT listed as TRAINER..I asked you WHY you said drugs..I didnt INSULT you!!!...I am NOT going to pay 12k a year for workmans comp ..JUST for my wife and I..I am a SMALL guy and stalls are hard to get at CALDER..That was in my earler posts..Just for your info CJ..I HAVE HAD my trainers licence since 1981 AND have ALWAYS held close to a 40% average.NO I am NOT a SUPER trainer with horses that make millions of dollars, Im one of them guys that has to take the best I can for the money I spend.When I hear guys talking how corrupt owners are and when I hear drugs have ruined racing, I dont think thats a fair statment..BUTE has been around for YEARS..ie Dancer's Images Derby..Also Lasix.Seems to me lots of the guys on these posts GET MAD when I try to explain things.NO I dont GET my name listed in the program..THAT doesnt bother me..Your original post is WHAT bothered me..From a guy who ALWAYS tries to do right by the horse

[cj]

I understand Tom, sometimes your posts are a little condescending, that's all. I never, ever implied that you don't treat your horses great. You have nothing to do with the regulations the sport. I never said a word about illegal drugs.

If it isn't drugs, why is the breed so much weaker today? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[sq764]

I do find it interesting that when the word 'drug' is thrown around when referencing horseracing, it is so quick to assume illegal drugs..

Almost makes me think that we all accept it as part of the 'game' and that we are all aware that it goes on every day at every track..

[Observer]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
I think we are breeding more and more unsound horses due to the proliferation of race day medication. Horses who never would have been allowed to race 30 years ago turn into to stars today and pass these traits on through the breeding shed. Thus, horses are not as sound and not able to run as many times per year.

We are not breeding sound animals like we did in the past.

I agree about the breeding aspect, and also think the rules regarding race-day medication need to be examined .. but I wonder .. back in "the days" .. what testing was like. People are quick to call trainers cheats now, but what about back then? Of course, I also don't think medications were what they are today, either.

One other practice I find troubling, is the surgeries some babies are put through to give their legs a more correct look, which in the end is to help their sale value.

[Observer]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
If it isn't drugs, why is the breed so much weaker today?

Hope you don't mind my thoughts .. but how about over-breeding? Some stallions are covering over 200 mares! How much scrutinizing can be going on with numbers like that?

I also think there is too much breeding for speed, and for "win-early" results. In general, how many horses can be ready for results at age 2, and go on to have successful campaigns at 3, never mind beyond that. Of course, there are rare exceptions, but they are becoming harder to find, it seems.

Another factor, when you have a "hot" horse, it seems too many breeders want to jump on the bandwagon. I find it absolutley astonishing how much people are willing to spend on an unproven stallion when there are proven alternatives out there.

I remember when Serena's Song was retired. They considered sending her to Cigar, but opted for Mr. Prospector, because he was proven. Good choice on their part, as we all know Cigar turned out to be a dud .. and a very costly one, indeed!

[TOOZ]

Maybe FP being hyped to the moon wasn't bad hype after all:

"Fusaichi Pegasus on Thursday took his record to 8 winners, 1 second- and 1 third-placegetter from his first 10 starters in Europe and America this season".

There's one for sale at the Fasig-Tipton at Saratoga which starts
tonight. Any ventures he'll be the highest priced?

[Observer]

Yes, Fusaichi Pegasus babies are off to a good start on the track, and at the sales they have gerated some excitement.

But in general, when a horse is retired for big money and with big hype behind him, it's a risky proposition shelling out that kind of money, especially before any babies have hit the ground.

I find the Bloodhorse listing of 1st Crop Sires pretty interesting. You have a horse whose 2004 fee was a mere $6,000 on top. If I recall correctly, though, Successful Appeal is moving from Florida to Kentucky, or already has. I'm sure that will mean an increase in his fee for next year.

Very interesting also, is that Giant's Causeway has 124 2yos!!

1st Crop Sires (http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/sirelists/national04/first_crop.asp)

[azibuck]

Horses who never would have been allowed to race 30 years ago turn into to stars today and pass these traits on through the breeding shed.

CJ, I don't understand the connection you make. Can you rephrase or expound?

I hope this doesn't raise the meter on what's become a contentious thread, but I think the onus is on you to prove (or back up) your statement, not for others to disprove it. You may have a point, but I don't think you've made it.

And I barely care, really. My thought is that horses are trained for speed too much, especially as juveniles. They should gallop more and become fit before racing. I think there's a connection between unfit and unsound, but I'm just a <strikethrough>hack</strikethrough> handicapper.

[cj]

I'm not sure how I could prove such a thing, other than to say bleeders couldn't race because they couldn't get Lasix. Horses who had physical problems raced because of Bute. Some of these same horses became champions and passed on their traits. These same horses could not run in England.

I certainly don't think its the only factor, but it HAS to be one.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Horses have BLED since the beginning of time! In all reality LASIX was USED to MASK other drugs in the day when prerace drugs wernt allowed..This is WHAT I think is KILLING the horses..You go to the sales and you see Babies looking for that 10 sec 1/8 so they will sell good..I was brought up to keep a 2yo slow until the fall of his 2yo year.You may think its breeding, BUT these FAst works on them SOFT legs hurts them..BUTE isnt really a painkiller like you all think!!..ITS more of a anti inflamatory.So if you give a horse Bute 24hours out and LASIX BEFORE his race..The LASIX rids the body of it before post time..I also think BUTE is WAY overhyped.The horses lasted longer before because WE had HORSEMAN training them.NOW we have a lot of men with horses.The good horseman are few and far between.WHEN millions are involved..You have all kinds of guys with their fingers in the pie.I dont think the breeding has ANYTHING to do with it..ITS MAN that is OVERTRAINING the horse

[cj]

This is the stuff I don't get Mc,

You know how to train better than the guys with millions of dollars of stock in the barn? I know horses have bled forever, but the difference is, those horses didn't become the champions and breed. Today, they do.

[Tee]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
BUTE isnt really a painkiller like you all think!!..ITS more of a anti inflamatory.

Phenylbutazone is a non sterooidal anti - inflammatory drug. NSAID's are medicines that relieve pain, swelling, stiffness, and inflammation.

Inflammation causes redness, swelling, heat, loss of function & pain!! The pain is perhaps the most significant result of inflammation.

So saying Bute isn't really a painkiller is not entirely wrong, but also not entirely correct. It works to help conditions that cause pain such as bursitis, arthritis, tendinitis, strains etc.

[CryingForTheHorses]

You are so correct on your post..IF I were to say that..DONT want anyone to THINK Im MR Knowitall..Thanks for informing Them and ME

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
This is the stuff I don't get Mc,

You know how to train better than the guys with millions of dollars of stock in the barn? I know horses have bled forever, but the difference is, those horses didn't become the champions and breed. Today, they do.

CJ!!!
ITS my DREAM to be ABLE to get a NICE horse!!.IF YOU have SAW some of the horse that I have had!!...DO you think them 10yo cripples just sit in a stall and eat...IF you ONLY KNEW what WORK had to BE done just for LISA RAE for her race yesterday..She couldnt WALK the day AFTER I claimed her!!!!(Thats another story!) TALK about POOR HORSEMAN..Trainng a GOOD horse is easy..HE does it ALL..ITs the greed that ruins them..ie not placing them properly!!.LOTS of these horses come out of their barn sore for the race and the trainer doesnt even know it,A sharp trainer can SPOT a BAD step as soon as the horse moves.Im SURE I would be a TOP trainer IF I were to EVER GET a chance.I can also say I have worked for the best!..LEARNED from OLD TIME horseman..To name a few..Frank Whitley,Horatio Luro,Walter Kelly, FS Schulhofer,JJ Sarner,Andy Smithers,Harry Trotsek,ALL of these GREAT horseman told me..I would be a GREAT trainer..

[cj]

I have no doubt you do a good job, your win % speaks for itself.

We've gotten off track I think. I just think there is more to horses being so fragile these days than bad training.

[CryingForTheHorses]

:)

[Observer]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
...I dont think the breeding has ANYTHING to do with it..

Too say breeding has nothing to do with it is narrow-minded. It may not have everything to do with it, but it certainly can be considered in part to have an effect. If horses can pick up traits from their parents like surface preferences, personality, distance limitations, speed or lack of speed, it could be considered that health and/or soundness could also be an inherited trait, to various degrees depending on the individual.

And CJ brings up good points. Think about horses that leave Europe or other parts of the world to come here and race on Lasix. And how is it that horses running where Bute is banned, will all of a sudden pick up Bute in places where it is allowed?!

You also have U.S. horses going over to Dubai, and losing their Lasix for those major races, and many of our horses have done just fine. Examples of this include Cigar, Silver Charm, Captain Steve, Pleasant Perfect, Medaglia d'Oro, Caller One, Echo Eddie, Xtra Heat .. and of these runners, only Xtra Heat went her whole career without ever having raced on Bute, but I don't believe she ever raced where it was permitted.

This going on and off medications is troubling and confusing.

As for what times where like pre-Lasix, I once read somewhere how horses who were bleeders were handled differently with their hay and water ... think it may have been Allen Jerkens making the comments .. but I'm not sure .. it was quite a while back.

Anyway .. breeding definitely plays a part .. as the saying goes .. only the strong survive .. and if weak horses are breeding to weak horses, than it will be the strongest of the weak.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Observer
Too say breeding has nothing to do with it is narrow-minded. It may not have everything to do with it, but it certainly can be considered in part to have an effect. If horses can pick up traits from their parents like surface preferences, personality, distance limitations, speed or lack of speed, it could be considered that health and/or soundness could also be an inherited trait, to various degrees depending on the individual.

And CJ brings up good points. Think about horses that leave Europe or other parts of the world to come here and race on Lasix. And how is it that horses running where Bute is banned, will all of a sudden pick up Bute in places where it is allowed?!

You also have U.S. horses going over to Dubai, and losing their Lasix for those major races, and many of our horses have done just fine. Examples of this include Cigar, Silver Charm, Captain Steve, Pleasant Perfect, Medaglia d'Oro, Caller One, Echo Eddie, Xtra Heat .. and of these runners, only Xtra Heat went her whole career without ever having raced on Bute, but I don't believe she ever raced where it was permitted.

This going on and off medications is troubling and confusing.

As for what times where like pre-Lasix, I once read somewhere how horses who were bleeders were handled differently with their hay and water ... think it may have been Allen Jerkens making the comments .. but I'm not sure .. it was quite a while back.

Anyway .. breeding definitely plays a part .. as the saying goes .. only the strong survive .. and if weak horses are breeding to weak horses, than it will be the strongest of the weak.

For a trainer to THINK BUTE will WIN him races..I feel sorry for th OWNERS.
You DID bring up a VALID point concerning HAY and WAter.YOU are correct in that!..I wont go into it.

[Turf2Dirt]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
This STILL hasnt got any merit with me CJ..PLEASE explain to me WHAT drugs you are talking about?....Horses arent bred unsound!!..ITS todays trainer that are breaking these horses down..Gone is the OLD school training methods.Its VERY easy to sit back and be a armchair trainer blaming loss's on dumb crap like drugs

I agree with you, poor horsemanship is a big cause for the amount of unsound horses racing nowadays. Trainers just send them as fast as they can go everyday and hope the drugs take care of the soreness.

Especially with these Mega-Stables(Asmussen, Pletcher, etc etc) not that they are terrible trainers, but the horses are put on a "program" instead of recieving individual care. There is no more old established farm trainers that raced mostly homebreds, and could turn a horse out for as long as needed if something was wrong.

Plus the profileration of mexican immigrants workers, who are for the most part laborers and not horseman, it takes a foreman to come down the shedrow and check for heat in the legs, they wont do it. In the old day thats the first thing a groom did everyday.

[Tom]

When lasix became legal,. Ihard warnings that the breed would be diminished becasue horses that were to "fragile" and not ussed for breeding would now find thier way to the breeding sheds. I agree it has happened. Toda'ys increased number of races every year requires more horses than ever before so lesser horses are now being bred, and their weak genes are now being passed on. The champions of today would, IMHO be no match forthe champions of 30 years ago. What would Forego, Seattle Slew, Honest Pleasure, Slew o' Gold do to the last 5 BC winners?
Couple that with the need for quicker cash return on horses and the tendency to race rather than let them mature and the whole damn breed is going down hill.
JMO

[TOOZ]

Speed is killing the breed. Years ago milers and sprinters were
not considered stallion prospects as they are today. If there was
no such thing as a 5F or 6F race, horses would remain sounder.
Why can't two year olds run a mile? Why not, less stress on the
body, slower fractions. Europeans run on grass, longer distances,
slower fractions = less stress.

[RXB]

When lasix became legal,. Ihard warnings that the breed would be diminished becasue horses that were to "fragile" and not ussed for breeding would now find thier way to the breeding sheds. I agree it has happened. Toda'ys increased number of races every year requires more horses than ever before so lesser horses are now being bred, and their weak genes are now being passed on. The champions of today would, IMHO be no match forthe champions of 30 years ago. What would Forego, Seattle Slew, Honest Pleasure, Slew o' Gold do to the last 5 BC winners?

Bingo.

[azibuck]

Ihard warnings that the breed would be diminished becasue horses that were to "fragile" and not ussed for breeding would now find thier way to the breeding sheds.

Shouldn't sound horses still be used for breeding, *along with* the unsound, Lasix-masked ones? If the statement above is true, then we should simply have more unsound horses, but as many sound ones.

If all horses are unsound, drugs cannot be blamed. We'd apparently have a lot of sound, and slow, horses. Actually, I should say we'd have a few sound and slow horses, and a hundred closed tracks.