what everyone is missing

[jimmyb]

"This all began because someone decided, as other elected officials have across the country, to cave in to partisan political pressures and seek to erase American history. History is not there for us to love or hate, but for us to learn from and seek to not repeat its mistakes.

If there are those who truly believe we protect ourselves by trying to revise history due to false emotions, then we miss out on who we are as a nation, and our evolution. The statues of long since deceased leaders of the Confederate Army do not stand to remind anyone of oppression. And if a statue can oppress you, then I submit that you have greater issues."


https://www.allenbwest.com/2017/08/13/ok-folks-heres-really-happened-charlottesville-everyone-missing/

[davew]

only half the people in the country are missing that, they have some sort of liberal spread disease

[tucker6]

Toppling statues is no different than burning books. Both lead to a decline in the understanding of history and our doom to repeat it.

[MutuelClerk]

Common sense and respect for one another.

[MONEY]

Losers shouldn't get trophies or statues.

[classhandicapper]

I find myself more aligned with the left on this.

I don't want statues toppled or destroyed. Destroying them is one notch above the Taliban. However, statues are generally put up as a symbol of admiration. That's why we've built status of Secretariat and Zenyatta, but not a statue of a $1500 claimer from Finger Lakes. A better place for them is a museum where we would not lose the history, but not make them symbols of admiration.

I have similar but not exactly the same feelings about the confederate flag.

For people in the south, the confederate flag evolved from a symbol of the confederacy, civil war, slavery etc... into a symbol of modern southern pride. There is nothing wrong with southerners feeling pride in their current values and lifestyle. That's something that northern liberals could never quite grasp or purposely refused to acknowledge.

The problem was two fold

1. Modern racists also adopted it as their symbol.

2. When you know some people are misunderstanding what you are saying and that some bad people are adopting your symbol, maybe it's just easier and better for everyone to pick another symbol to express your pride.

[FantasticDan]

https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/897262508821565440

[Ocala Mike]

Most of the statues in question were put up as a reaction to what was viewed at the time (early and mid-20th century) as encroachments on the south's prevailing racist attitudes, i.e., the advancement of civil rights.

Anyway, if you think the underlying protest was about removal of statues and not about neo-Nazism, anti-semitism, and white supremacy, you need to watch the Vice video shot Friday night.

[Show Me the Wire]

https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/897262508821565440

I can agree with the above sentiment. However, mob rule is absolutely a grievous mechanism to use to the above stated ends. Also, you cannot not convince me the true motivation by these vandals is to preserve history in a museum. You do not vandalize, destroy, spit and stomp on a statue you want to preserve in a museum.

The alt-left needs to be called out for what they are. They are anarchists with an agenda of violence. The left, especially the media, needs to stop trying to justify the violence committed by these anarchists by assigning some noble motive to their violent mob actions.

[Show Me the Wire]

"This all began because someone decided, as other elected officials have across the country, to cave in to partisan political pressures and seek to erase American history. History is not there for us to love or hate, but for us to learn from and seek to not repeat its mistakes.

If there are those who truly believe we protect ourselves by trying to revise history due to false emotions, then we miss out on who we are as a nation, and our evolution. The statues of long since deceased leaders of the Confederate Army do not stand to remind anyone of oppression. And if a statue can oppress you, then I submit that you have greater issues."


https://www.allenbwest.com/2017/08/13/ok-folks-heres-really-happened-charlottesville-everyone-missing/

Everyone is missing the objective standard for the exercise of a constitutional right, which is exercising the right responsibly.

[woodtoo]

I can agree with the above sentiment. However, mob rule is absolutely a grievous mechanism to use to the above stated ends. Also, you cannot not convince me the true motivation by these vandals is to preserve history in a museum. You do not vandalize, destroy, spit and stomp on a statue you want to preserve in a museum.

The alt-left needs to be called out for what they are. They are anarchists with an agenda of violence. The left, especially the media, needs to stop trying to justify the violence committed by these anarchists by assigning some noble motive to their violent mob actions.

So true.

[olddaddy]

And another issue is unearthed to divide the masses so power wont be held by the masses. Divide and conquer once again.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm for getting rid of the public statues commemorating the south's civil war "heroes" but I'm also for arresting all those who participated in the unlawful toppling of the statues.

[classhandicapper]

I'm for getting rid of the public statues commemorating the south's civil war "heroes" but I'm also for arresting all those who participated in the unlawful toppling of the statues.

+1

[Parkview_Pirate]

Most of the statues in question were put up as a reaction to what was viewed at the time (early and mid-20th century) as encroachments on the south's prevailing racist attitudes, i.e., the advancement of civil rights.

Anyway, if you think the underlying protest was about removal of statues and not about neo-Nazism, anti-semitism, and white supremacy, you need to watch the Vice video shot Friday night.

If one considers a statue as a form of speech, then they should be protected by the 1st Amendment. Which, of course, does not guarantee that the statue or speech might not be offensive to someone.

What everyone is missing here is that we're seeing violence usurp the 1st Amendment (and there's a reason it's number 1) and undermine the rule of law. A very dangerous thing indeed - much more dangerous than the incoherent, unorganized and ineffective activities of a very small group of racists. Made even more dangerous by the Antifa pawns being funded by the alt-left.

The push back from the larger group of "deplorables" won't be based on race - it'll be based on having to become more extreme just to survive.

[JustRalph]

Losers shouldn't get trophies or statues.

Come on. Just because you were a loser in one portion of your life, doesn't mean you shouldn't be honored for another. Especially on a local level.

If we stuck with your post then we would tear down the Vietnam War Memorial. Statues and other honors are the province of the local governments. If they want to honor someone, who cares.

Thomas Edison electrocuted an elephant as a public stunt to further his ambitions. He stuck an electric probe up the poor animals ass, but there are statues dedicated to him.

Fighting on the perceived wrong side of a war........when examined 150 yrs later........doesn't trump the locals who decided to put the statues up. If you want to tear it down, do it the right way.

[MargieRose]

Why were the white supremacists given a permit to rally, in the first place? Were those who did issue the permit that stupid not to know that they were opening a Pandora's box?

The city officials of Charlottesville should be sued for malpractice! "They drew first blood!"

[Show Me the Wire]

Why were the white supremacists given a permit to rally, in the first place? Were those who did issue the permit that stupid not to know that they were opening a Pandora's box?

The city officials of Charlottesville should be sued for malpractice! "They drew first blood!"

They have a Constitutional right to hold a rally. And yes the city officials are guilty of not being prepared to protect their citizens.

[PaceAdvantage]

Why were the white supremacists given a permit to rally, in the first place? Were those who did issue the permit that stupid not to know that they were opening a Pandora's box?

The city officials of Charlottesville should be sued for malpractice! "They drew first blood!"They've been holding rallies and marches for decades.

But usually, people and the media did the right thing...they didn't look to PROMOTE THE HELL OUT OF IT TO TRY AND GET SOMETHING TO HAPPEN THAT THEY CAN THEN USE TO FURTHER DAMAGE THE PRESIDENT.

That's the ONLY reason this particular rally turned out the way it did...because of the current atmosphere of "GET TRUMP AT ANY COST."

Nobody seemed to care much when these racist assholes were marching during the Clinton, Bush or Obama administrations. These presidents weren't asked daily to denounce these marches that happened, I would assume, at least multiple times per year across the country during all of their administrations.

The far-left never promoted these hate gatherings with the hopes of getting armed opposition to appear and cause a serious incident. The media never covered them, and the presidents were never asked to denounce them.

All that has changed...and all these hate groups are LOVING the spotlight that the LEFT has shined on them.

The funny thing is, the far left is FAR MORE dangerous than these piss-ant groups of racists will EVER be to the USA....

[MargieRose]

They've been holding rallies and marches for decades.

But usually, people and the media did the right thing...they didn't look to PROMOTE THE HELL OUT OF IT TO TRY AND GET SOMETHING TO HAPPEN THAT THEY CAN THEN USE TO FURTHER DAMAGE THE PRESIDENT.

That's the ONLY reason this particular rally turned out the way it did...because of the current atmosphere of "GET TRUMP AT ANY COST."

Nobody seemed to care much when these racist assholes were marching during the Clinton, Bush or Obama administrations. These presidents weren't asked daily to denounce these marches that happened, I would assume, at least multiple times per year across the country during all of their administrations.

The far-left never promoted these hate gatherings with the hopes of getting armed opposition to appear and cause a serious incident. The media never covered them, and the presidents were never asked to denounce them.

All that has changed...and all these hate groups are LOVING the spotlight that the LEFT has shined on them.

The funny thing is, the far left is FAR MORE dangerous than these piss-ant groups of racists will EVER be to the USA....
Thank you. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[classhandicapper]

There is absolutely no doubt at all the mainstream media is a HUGE villain in all the social strife in this country. 90% (give or take) of the mainstream media is a flat out extension of democrat party and liberal causes. In many cases, we are talking about far left causes. The punishment for disagreement is the destruction of your political life, job, or whatever else it takes to castrate you.

That extreme bias is infuriating to many (I'm among them). The only thing that prevents me from rioting is human decency and the ability to rise above them.

Political debates in this country should be resolved on the merits of the intellectual arguments made by both sides. They should not be resolved with spin, lies, misinformation, and the destruction of the opposition by the media.

The NY Times wrote a puff piece about Stalin. Stalin!

The WPO is defending BLM/Antifa. That's preposterous. There are members of those groups that have killed innocent cops (while the media made excuses and in some cases inflamed the tensions with lies and premature proclamations), suppressed reasonable free speech at universities, beat innocent bystanders, destroyed public and private property, rioted, looted, shot at congressman, instigated fights, dragged innocent people out of cars and beat them because they were white etc...

The media should be doing everything in its power to reduce tensions and not defending violent scumbags because they want to prove their scumbags aren't as bad as the other side's scumbags. I can only hope they are all marginalized further and eventually go out of business. They are legitimately and truly the enemy of moderate Americans of good will that want the best for the country based on the merits of debate.

[Parkview_Pirate]

...The funny thing is, the far left is FAR MORE dangerous than these piss-ant groups of racists will EVER be to the USA....

I see the Deep State as the root cause and the real threat. The far left and the far right have been infiltrated by their operatives, and the other members of the extremist groups are just pawns.

And the rest of us, well, we're just fodder.

[delayjf]

That extreme bias is infuriating to many (I'm among them). The only thing that prevents me from rioting is human decency and the ability to rise above them.

So much so, that many of my friends were so sick of watching the Alt Left and its riots, that they took delight in watching anyone, even the white hate groups stand up to them. Sad.

[PaceAdvantage]

There are going to be a lot of unintended consequences of what is going on out there right now. We are in no-man's land in terms of politics in this country.

But then again, the left, with its supposed "good intentions," always runs afoul of "unintended consequences." Just look at Obamacare...

[MONEY]

Come on. Just because you were a loser in one portion of your life, doesn't mean you shouldn't be honored for another. Especially on a local level.

If we stuck with your post then we would tear down the Vietnam War Memorial. Statues and other honors are the province of the local governments. If they want to honor someone, who cares.

Thomas Edison electrocuted an elephant as a public stunt to further his ambitions. He stuck an electric probe up the poor animals ass, but there are statues dedicated to him.

Fighting on the perceived wrong side of a war........when examined 150 yrs later........doesn't trump the locals who decided to put the statues up. If you want to tear it down, do it the right way.

Vietnam Veterans are American Heroes, NOT LOSERS.
They fought for the U.S.A. in Vietnam not against us.

Conferates were traitors that tried to break up the United States & thankfully lost.
They were responsible for the deaths of more than 600,000 Americans.
The leaders should have been hung, not honored with Statues.

I will not dignify your personal attack against me with a response.

[PaceAdvantage]

I will not dignify your personal attack against me with a response.For the record, I don't see any personal attack in there...his use of "because you were a loser in one portion of your life" wasn't meant for you, but the people they made statutes for...unless someone has made a statue of you that we don't know about...which would be pretty cool.

[Marshall Bennett]

Statues are just a beginning. A number of schools across the nation (dozens in Houston alone) are in the process of having their names changed that are considered offensive to those upset by the confederacy. Street names are also being considered. I wouldn't be surprised if eventually entire towns and cities experience the same. Jefferson owned slaves, as well as countless other prominent historical figures. So they can't escape the wrecking ball either.
Drawing a line at any given stage would of course constitute racism, just as leaving the statues standing would be. Does anyone with half a mind need look any further to fully understand why white people are becoming more and more racist towards blacks?
Flags and statues aren't symbols of racism. The people that relate them with racism are. The statue and flags have been there for centuries. It's the recent diversion from historic value to hate and symbolic recreation that has taken over. Once again, thank liberals. They've made it all possible.

[MONEY]

For the record, I don't see any personal attack in there...his use of "because you were a loser in one portion of your life" wasn't meant for you, but the people they made statutes for...unless someone has made a statue of you that we don't know about...which would be pretty cool.
After reading it again, I can see that you are right and I was wrong.
My sincere APOLOGIES to Ralph.

[FantasticDan]

There are going to be a lot of unintended consequences of what is going on out there right now.
Such as?

[PaceAdvantage]

Does anyone with half a mind need look any further to fully understand why white people are becoming more and more racist towards blacks?They are? You are a one trick pony.

[Marshall Bennett]

They are? You are a one trick pony.
I'm surprised my post is still even standing. My post of a similar nature in another thread came down. Was probably even less suggestive and much less than others posted there.
It's not what I write, Mike, its a personal issue you have with me.
You know it, and I know it. :)

[ReplayRandall]

Thomas Edison electrocuted an elephant as a public stunt to further his ambitions. He stuck an electric probe up the poor animals ass, but there are statues dedicated to him.

Topsy the elephant, was sentenced to death by Luna Park officials after she had killed three men over a three-month period.* Edison himself had nothing to do with the death of Topsy:

http://edison.rutgers.edu/topsy.htm

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm surprised my post is still even standing. My post of a similar nature in another thread came down. Was probably even less suggestive and much less than others posted there.
It's not what I write, Mike, its a personal issue you have with me.
You know it, and I know it. :)When you write stupid stuff like "Blacks are 50% of the problem," yeah, I'm gonna delete it...

[ElKabong]

Does anyone with half a mind need look any further to fully understand why white people are becoming more and more racist towards blacks?
.

Only for the ignorant, and the ones that had a racist bent to begin with.

And FWIW, I see this coming out from blacks as well. Some people (of color) I know are becoming more open about their bigotry towards whites recently. People I know that are in upper management positions have very recently made comments I'd not heard before from them, nor was a part of their makeup that I knew of.

Longer story here, but group-think is becoming an issue in America. No one seems to think for themselves anymore....Just the "us vs them" mentality

[jimmyb]

Statues are just a beginning. A number of schools across the nation (dozens in Houston alone) are in the process of having their names changed that are considered offensive to those upset by the confederacy. Street names are also being considered. I wouldn't be surprised if eventually entire towns and cities experience the same. Jefferson owned slaves, as well as countless other prominent historical figures. So they can't escape the wrecking ball either.
Drawing a line at any given stage would of course constitute racism, just as leaving the statues standing would be. Does anyone with half a mind need look any further to fully understand why white people are becoming more and more racist towards blacks?
Flags and statues aren't symbols of racism. The people that relate them with racism are. The statue and flags have been there for centuries. It's the recent diversion from historic value to hate and symbolic recreation that has taken over. Once again, thank liberals. They've made it all possible.

I guess this is the end for George Washington. All photos and references to one of the founding fathers is out. We could put George Washington Carver in his stead. Maybe a statue of Louis Farrakhan instead of Robert E Lee would appease. The Jesse Jackson school of ebonics for the hypocritically challenged... The Al Sharpton anti-semetic school for the blind ... The Barry Obama school of Medical Billing and coding ... The Ice Tea school of law enforcement ... To heck with Kennedy, Jefferson, and any thing to do with the name Helms or Wallace. Wide reciever of the Baltimore Ravens, Mike Wallace, would have to change his name. The Colin Kapernick school of knee replacement sounds good, and why not erect a kneeling statue while we are at it ... I'd include Tim Tebow but he wouldn't qualify. Thank you liberals, you've made it all possible!!!

[fast4522]

I am not from the south but understand some of the non raciest positions about the civil war, like the amount of deaths involved on both sides. War is ugly, many a park or statue for sons of the south who served for the south. Sure there are many repugnant people who hold views not healthy to which these things represent, what about the people who do not share those views that are repugnant but have some connection or feelings about the civil war. Opposing people always clash or go looking for trouble. Certainly this thread can offer better than what is the story on the television.

[_______]

Statues are just a beginning. A number of schools across the nation (dozens in Houston alone) are in the process of having their names changed that are considered offensive to those upset by the confederacy. Street names are also being considered. I wouldn't be surprised if eventually entire towns and cities experience the same. Jefferson owned slaves, as well as countless other prominent historical figures. So they can't escape the wrecking ball either.
Drawing a line at any given stage would of course constitute racism, just as leaving the statues standing would be. Does anyone with half a mind need look any further to fully understand why white people are becoming more and more racist towards blacks?
Flags and statues aren't symbols of racism. The people that relate them with racism are. The statue and flags have been there for centuries. It's the recent diversion from historic value to hate and symbolic recreation that has taken over. Once again, thank liberals. They've made it all possible.

What is up with the easy conflation of our founding fathers and those who took up arms against the country they founded so they could continue enslaving other humans?

They aren't equivalent. They have never been equivilant.

Anymore than those supporting civil rights are exactly the same as neo-nazi's and white supremacists.

And regardless of our tin eared President's assertions otherwise, there is no slippery slope from removing Confederate statutes to renouncing Thomas Jefferson. Only complete idiots would be unable to understand the differences.

[FantasticDan]

Only complete idiots would be unable to understand the differences.
You're in the right place. :ThmbUp:

[Show Me the Wire]

Quote:
Originally Posted by _______ View Post
Only complete idiots would be unable to understand the differences.You're in the right place. :ThmbUp:



Petitioning University of Missouri and 1 other
Remove the Statue of Thomas Jefferson from Campus

A welcoming environment is also determined by its physical environment e.g., the use of artifacts in designated spaces. Some individuals may not see Thomas Jefferson’s statue in the quad as a form of oppression, but in higher education settings where highly conscious students are present, it is relatively easy to see and read such nonverbal messages.......................................... .....

The Jefferson statue on campus sends two signals: the first coding nonverbal element is that the University of Missouri belongs to a specific class structure, those who are great land-holders, wealthy and white. Secondly, it represents the discrimination of immigrant poor and landless whites, maltreatment of the Indigenous American and the dehumanization of black individuals who Jefferson himself viewed as inferior, owning over 200 slaves while believing that blacks were unintelligent and never could be equal to whites (Benson, 1971)...

https://www.change.org/p/the-university-of-missouri-remove-the-statue-of-thomas-jefferson-from-campus

Seems the President has a better understanding than you two.

[classhandicapper]

Can we please get rid of Franklin's face on the dime?

I find it repulsive for a variety of reasons, but Japanese internment camps seems like a good enough reason.

While we are at it, here's a list of places named after Robert Byrd. I've also seen picture of a statue, but I don't know where it's located. Time to melt that sucker down too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_named_after_Robert_Byrd

[_______]

Petitioning University of Missouri and 1 other
Remove the Statue of Thomas Jefferson from Campus



https://www.change.org/p/the-university-of-missouri-remove-the-statue-of-thomas-jefferson-from-campus

Seems the President has a better understanding than you two.

And now we are conflating change.org petitions which ANYONE with an internet connection can file with the actual removal?

No. I'm still pretty sure Jefferson is safe and you are still wrong.

[newtothegame]

Considering Lincoln himself did NOT see blacks and whites as being equals, he surely must of been a racist....His monuments MUST GO surely!

" “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites"

http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation

Now the story does go on to say his positions "changed" over time.....I'm sure he was just trying to cover his political proverbial ass.....:faint:

How about our beloved first president....I'm pretty sure I read somewhere he OWNED slaves. That in itself shows his racism. I mean how else could anyone enslave another man if he felt they were equals???

Jefferson, there are stories of his affairs with his slaves. Need I go further...??

Lets just pretend that those times and those people from that time never existed! Surely that will solve all of our nations woes. I mean the statues here in New Orleans are gone for months now. That was supposed to cure everything in societies woes. Ummm sorry to report back, crime is as high as ever, the city cant even protect its citizens from recent flooding rains, but the statues are gone!!! :headbanger:

[Show Me the Wire]

And now we are conflating change.org petitions which ANYONE with an internet connection can file with the actual removal?

No. I'm still pretty sure Jefferson is safe and you are still wrong.

No conflation. It is a demonstration about complete idiots not understanding the difference. In other words you are wrong.

[classhandicapper]

Only complete idiots would be unable to understand the differences.

Wait a minute.

You were making a good case for why these kinds of actions would never extend to people like Washington, Jefferson and other slave owners, then you went and blew it by describing the extremist left. :-)

[Show Me the Wire]

Considering Lincoln himself did NOT see blacks and whites as being equals, he surely must of been a racist....His monuments MUST GO surely!

" “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites"

http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation

Now the story does go on to say his positions "changed" over time.....I'm sure he was just trying to cover his political proverbial ass.....:faint:

How about our beloved first president....I'm pretty sure I read somewhere he OWNED slaves. That in itself shows his racism. I mean how else could anyone enslave another man if he felt they were equals???

Jefferson, there are stories of his affairs with his slaves. Need I go further...??

Lets just pretend that those times and those people from that time never existed! Surely that will solve all of our nations woes. I mean the statues here in New Orleans are gone for months now. That was supposed to cure everything in societies woes. Ummm sorry to report back, crime is as high as ever, the city cant even protect its citizens from recent flooding rains, but the statues are gone!!! :headbanger:

Not only did he own slaves, he ordered the return of slaves to the Colonies, freed by the British and being transported to Canada, as part of the British surrender. Shame, shame, shame.

[_______]

No conflation. It is a demonstration about complete idiots not understanding the difference. In other words you are wrong.

I've re-read this a few times. Maybe it's me. But I can't really draw your point out of it. Outside of me being wrong and all.

[_______]

Wait a minute.

You were making a good case for why these kinds of actions would never extend to people like Washington, Jefferson and other slave owners, then you went and blew it by describing the extremist left. :-)

I laughed.

[Show Me the Wire]

I've re-read this a few times. Maybe it's me. But I can't really draw your point out of it. Outside of me being wrong and all.

It is me.

[classhandicapper]

I laughed.

I'm glad. That was the intent.

In one of the threads I mentioned that I think civil war statues belong in museums, but I'm not as confident as you regarding statues of Washington, Jefferson etc... and street names & buildings being safe. There's a lot of animosity against the founders for being slave owners. There may never be a mainstream push to have them removed, but that won't stop anarchists from vandalizing & destroying them or the Washington Post from defending the vandals.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/11/museum-natural-history-theodore-roosevelt-statue-protest

[Show Me the Wire]

It is me.

I meant my poorly worded response, as an example of a supposedly educated person not understanding the difference. Not understanding the difference between slave-owning founding fathers and civil war participants is not the sole province of complete idiots.

[Marshall Bennett]

When you write stupid stuff like "Blacks are 50% of the problem," yeah, I'm gonna delete it...
Its stupid stuff if you don't agree is what you really mean. Its not stupid at all and I'd bet my life an overwhelming majority of white people in the country would agree. I was applying the blame equally between whites and blacks. Since you believe that to be "stupid" then I assume you see it as a white problem.
You may not like my opinions, but that was all it was intended to be. You're the boss however and you censor what you wish. At the end of the day it really matters jack-shit to me. I live with what rights you give me here or walk.
Frankly, I believe what you posted as a reply to mine was "stupid".
I'm sure you're right though and I'm wrong. Its always been that way.
Have a nice evening, Mike. :)

[_______]

I'm glad. That was the intent.

In one of the threads I mentioned that I think civil war statues belong in museums, but I'm not as confident as you regarding statues of Washington, Jefferson etc... and street names & buildings being safe. There's a lot of animosity against the founders for being slave owners. There may never be a mainstream push to have them removed, but that won't stop anarchists from vandalizing & destroying them or the Washington Post from defending the vandals.

I'm a big civil war history buff. I don't think anyone actually thinks history is being erased by the removal of statutes honoring leaders of secession from public places. Many of them were erected in the 40's and after as signals during the civil rights movement. That part of history does get regularly ignored.

I draw the line of stupidity at the point where monuments to common soldiers are controversial. The Los Angeles VA cemetery just removed a monument to the 30 confederate veterans buried there after protests. That, to me, was a sad and stupid decision.

But the hands in the air, running in circles, crying over history because someone wants to put Nathan Bedford Forrest in a war museum instead of a public square is a farce.

And no, it isn't leading to America renouncing all of it's flawed, all too human founders.

[Show Me the Wire]

Op-ed in the NY Times from 2012

The Monster of Monticello, Thomas Jefferson

Destroying families didn’t bother Jefferson, because he believed blacks lacked basic human emotions. “Their griefs are transient,” he wrote, and their love lacked “a tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation.”

Jefferson claimed he had “never seen an elementary trait of painting or sculpture” or poetry among blacks and argued that blacks’ ability to “reason” was “much inferior” to whites’, while “in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous.” He conceded that blacks were brave, but this was because of “a want of fore-thought, which prevents their seeing a danger till it be present.”

A scientist, Jefferson nevertheless speculated that blackness might come “from the color of the blood” and concluded that blacks were “inferior to the whites in the endowments of body and mind.”............................................ ..................

If there was “treason against the hopes of the world,” it was perpetrated by the founding generation, which failed to place the nation on the road to liberty for all. No one bore a greater responsibility for that failure than the master of Monticello. [emphasis added]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/01/opinion/the-real-thomas-jefferson.html

Paul Finkelman, a visiting professor in legal history at Duke Law School, is a professor at Albany Law School and the author of “Slavery and the Founders: Race and Liberty in the Age of Jefferson.”

Do you think Mr. Finkelman and others of his ilk would support the removal of a Thomas Jefferson statue or a statue of any of the slave holding founding fathers? After all they committed treason against the hopes of the world. Or is he a complete idiot that can't distinguish between the founders of a country and people who fought, in the Civil War, to protect the treason Jefferson and the other founding fathers committed?

[dartman51]

Vietnam Veterans are American Heroes, NOT LOSERS.
They fought for the U.S.A. in Vietnam not against us.



You are correct, Money. And I sure hope you were treated as one. Some of us, were not.

[Show Me the Wire]

You are correct, Money. And I sure hope you were treated as one. Some of us, were not.

I agree Vietnam vets are heroes.

[_______]

Op-ed in the NY Times from 2012

The Monster of Monticello, Thomas Jefferson

[emphasis added]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/01/opinion/the-real-thomas-jefferson.html

Paul Finkelman, a visiting professor in legal history at Duke Law School, is a professor at Albany Law School and the author of “Slavery and the Founders: Race and Liberty in the Age of Jefferson.”

Do you think Mr. Finkelman and others of his ilk would support the removal of a Thomas Jefferson statue or a statue of any of the slave holding founding fathers? After all they committed treason against the hopes of the world. Or is he a complete idiot that can't distinguish between the founders of a country and people who fought, in the Civil War, to protect the treason Jefferson and the other founding fathers committed?

Get back to me with an actual removal or renaming and I'll join you in lighting my hair on fire. Actually, get back to me with dozens. I'm sure there has probably been some idiot somewhere and since we are looking for a movement, I don't want to waste this beautiful hairline to make a rhetorical point.

The "op" part of op-ed refers to "opinion" in case you weren't aware. Those are protected speech and come in many colors. Kind of like your ridiculous on line petition example.

I'm in favor of the them in general though not this one specifically.

[elysiantraveller]

They aren't equivalent. They have never been equivilant.

Anymore than those supporting civil rights are exactly the same as neo-nazi's and white supremacists.

I find it amazing people are even attempting to make that stretch.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/60/56/87/60568790376013af842ef214fcfd8a59--marvel-jokes-marvel-vs.jpg

[Show Me the Wire]

Get back to me with an actual removal or renaming and I'll join you in lighting my hair on fire. Actually, get back to me with dozens. I'm sure there has probably been some idiot somewhere and since we are looking for a movement, I don't want to waste this beautiful hairline to make a rhetorical point.

The "op" part of op-ed refers to "opinion" in case you weren't aware. Those are protected speech and come in many colors. Kind of like your ridiculous on line petition example.

I'm in favor of the them in general though not this one specifically.


My hair is not on fire. Point is the President is not too far off in his assessment about the slippery slope. And your Only complete idiots would be unable to understand the differences
assertion is deeply flawed as a rebuttal to the President's statement.

[Show Me the Wire]

I'm a big civil war history buff. I don't think anyone actually thinks history is being erased by the removal of statutes honoring leaders of secession from public places. Many of them were erected in the 40's and after as signals during the civil rights movement. That part of history does get regularly ignored.

I draw the line of stupidity at the point where monuments to common soldiers are controversial. The Los Angeles VA cemetery just removed a monument to the 30 confederate veterans buried there after protests. That, to me, was a sad and stupid decision.

But the hands in the air, running in circles, crying over history because someone wants to put Nathan Bedford Forrest in a war museum instead of a public square is a farce.

And no, it isn't leading to America renouncing all of it's flawed, all too human founders.


Why? They supported the leaders and actually fought for secession. The common soldiers are just as guilty, or more so, as the leaders.

[_______]

Why? They supported the leaders and actually fought for secession. The common soldiers are just as guilty, or more so, as the leaders.

I know this was just a troll but I'll pretend you aren't trying to make a ridiculous point about how removing statutes mostly erected in the South during the civil rights movement is exactly like pissing on George Washington's grave.

Most confederate soldiers weren't slaveholders. In fact, most weren't landholders. They were poor whites little better off than the slaves their leaders wanted to sacrifice their lives to keep. I'm sure a modern mind would find their attitudes archaic, in the same way we can look back and see flaws in Thomas Jefferson and other founders.

But, on balance, I have far more sympathy for a common soldier who fought for a cause which didn't also assure their countinied wealth on the back of slave labor.

[Show Me the Wire]

I know this was just a troll but I'll pretend you aren't trying to make a ridiculous point about how removing statutes mostly erected in the South during the civil rights movement is exactly like pissing on George Washington's grave.

Most confederate soldiers weren't slaveholders. In fact, most weren't landholders. They were poor whites little better off than the slaves their leaders wanted to sacrifice their lives to keep. I'm sure a modern mind would find their attitudes archaic, in the same way we can look back and see flaws in Thomas Jefferson and other founders.

But, on balance, I have far more sympathy for a common soldier who fought for a cause which didn't also assure their countinied wealth on the back of slave labor.

Why are you conflating? I asked why the delineation, by you, regarding statues erected to honor leaders versus soldiers. The mere fact the majority of soldiers were not slave owners, makes them more culpable. The leaders had economic reasons to support the institution of slavery, while the common soldier fought because of his racism.

The common soldier, having no economic interests, fought based solely on the moral grounds that black people were inferior and to keep them in their subjected place. The common soldier's racist reason for fighting is more reprehensible.

[_______]

Why are you conflating? I asked why the delineation by you regarding statues erected to honor leaders versus soldiers. The mere fact the majority of soldiers were not slave owners, makes them more culpable. The leaders had economic reasons to support the institution of slavery, while the common soldier fought because of his racism.

The common soldier, having no economic interests, fought based solely on the moral grounds that black people were inferior and to keep them in their subjected place. The common soldier's racist reason for fighting is more reprehensible.

You've convinced me with your logic and repetitious use of the word conflating.

You actually believe this nonsense and I pissed you off by inadvertaly using a trigger word.

[Show Me the Wire]

You've convinced me with your logic and repetitious use of the word conflating.

You actually believe this nonsense and I pissed you off by inadvertaly using a trigger word.

I am far from pissed off. I actually agree with your following point:

I don't think anyone actually thinks history is being erased by the removal of statutes honoring leaders of secession from public places. Many of them were erected in the 40's and after as signals during the civil rights movement. That part of history does get regularly ignored.

I agree the statues were used as signals during the civil rights movement. If you read the entire thread I also agreed with the sentiment that it is history which belongs in a museum.

If you read the whole thread you would understand my objection was about mob action making the decision. In light of mob action there is a slippery slope about which statues (founding fathers) would be violently removed or removed by some authorities to prevent mob violence.

[Nutz and Boltz]

The Confederate Civil War generals should have never been "honored" in any way in the first place . The Civil War was a shameful part of American history, turning fellow countrymen against each other. That war should have quickly been forgotten, not celebrated in any manner.

[Clocker]

The leaders had economic reasons to support the institution of slavery, while the common soldier fought because of his racism.

The common soldier, having no economic interests, fought based solely on the moral grounds that black people were inferior and to keep them in their subjected place. The common soldier's racist reason for fighting is more reprehensible.

The common solider fought because he was defending his home against what he considered to be an invasion. People at that time, especially in the south, considered themselves to be citizens of their state first, and of a country second. Yes, the majority of them were racists, but that is not why they fought. They fought to defend their homeland against a foreign invader.

[classhandicapper]

I'm going to keep calling out people defending BLM and Antifa again and again.

The BLM movement and Antifa have been directly responsible or influenced people that have rioted, looted, suppressed reasonable speech at universities, destroyed public and private properly, killed innocent cops, beaten innocent bystanders, shot a congressman, and typically show up armed to their protests.

Exactly what does that have in common with civil rights?

Just because there are still skinheads and nazis in the world does not mean you have a right run amok killing people and destroying things.

That anyone is trying to defend these scumbags (especially the left wing media) because they are in opposition to another bigger set of scumbags is reprehensible. They ARE BOTH scumbags and this country has no use for either of them.

[Tom]

You're in the right place. :ThmbUp:

He sure is. Right here with you.

Do you know what these stinking racists did over the years?
They voted Robert Byrd into office multiple times.
the named road, building, bridges after him, to glorify the KKK, a racist organization THEY themselves founded to deny Blacks their rights.

We have to do all we can do to stamp out what is left of this racist, murdering group.....democrats.

Deny that, Sparky.

btw, when do you guys start renaming the Byrd stuff?

This has nothing to do with racism or neo-nazis of the KKK and only an outright idiot believes it is.

I got two of them on my list so far.....

[elysiantraveller]

I'm going to keep calling out people defending BLM and Antifa again and again.

And that's totally your prerogative.

However, I'm going to disagree with any attempt at equivalence. I know there are bad apples in every bunch but I think a lot of people who showed up at black rights rallies across the country are not violent. I would venture to say the majority, or at least a large percentage, of them are "dreamers" in the MLK ilk. People who show up at white supremacist rallies... heh... well they are white supremacists. Again I'm not a fan of BLM either but you're comparing someone like Colin Kaepernik to a Nazi.

[elysiantraveller]

He sure is. Right here with you.

Do you know what these stinking racists did over the years?
They voted Robert Byrd into office multiple times.
the named road, building, bridges after him, to glorify the KKK, a racist organization THEY themselves founded to deny Blacks their rights.

We have to do all we can do to stamp out what is left of this racist, murdering group.....democrats.

Deny that, Sparky.

btw, when do you guys start renaming the Byrd stuff?

This has nothing to do with racism or neo-nazis of the KKK and only an outright idiot believes it is.

I got two of them on my list so far.....

Did you have a point? Did Dan vote for Byrd?

I'm pretty sure it has to do with Nazis and the KKK. At my last tally score was Nazis - 1 Counterprotesters - 0

[ReplayRandall]

And that's totally your prerogative.

However, I'm going to disagree with any attempt at equivalence. I know there are bad apples in every bunch but I think a lot of people who showed up at black rights rallies across the country are not violent. I would venture to say the majority, or at least a large percentage, of them are "dreamers" in the MLK ilk. People who show up at white supremacist rallies... heh... well they are white supremacists. Again I'm not a fan of BLM either but you're comparing someone like Colin Kaepernik to a Nazi.

Whatever you say, E-traveller....BTW, from right where I live in Charlotte:

https://youtu.be/PJm4Bor-kYc

Here's another peaceful THUG:

https://youtu.be/pOdXXVhY_Nk

[Tom]

I'm pretty sure it has to do with Nazis and the KKK.

And you would be wrong.
Not for the first time.

[classhandicapper]

And that's totally your prerogative.

However, I'm going to disagree with any attempt at equivalence. I know there are bad apples in every bunch but I think a lot of people who showed up at black rights rallies across the country are not violent. I would venture to say the majority, or at least a large percentage, of them are "dreamers" in the MLK ilk. People who show up at white supremacist rallies... heh... well they are white supremacists. Again I'm not a fan of BLM either but you're comparing someone like Colin Kaepernik to a Nazi.

Exactly where did I compare Colin Kaepernick to a Nazi?

He's just a mediocre quarterback with a flawed understanding of reality.

Of course there are decent people protesting against police brutality, neo nazis etc.. in the same way there are decent people against wide open borders for economic and other legitimate reasons. They aren't all Nazis either.

If it makes some people feel better to think that there are degrees of scumbag, they are certainly entitled to that view. I think once you are a scumbag, it's pretty irrelevant just how scummy you are. Trouble has specifically followed both BLM and Antifa because they are NOT the good guys. They are the flip side of a deranged coin.

[elysiantraveller]

Whatever you say, E-traveller....BTW, from right where I live in Charlotte:

https://youtu.be/PJm4Bor-kYc

Here's another peaceful THUG:

https://youtu.be/pOdXXVhY_Nk

Apparently comprehension isn't your strong suit. I literally said there are bad apples in the black rights movement... however... I refuse to believe those images represent the majority of black rights protestors. The photos of saod evemts would back me up on this. You're looking only for things that fit your narrative.

[elysiantraveller]

Exactly where did I compare Colin Kaepernick to a Nazi?

He's just a mediocre quarterback with a flawed understanding of reality.

Of course there are decent people protesting against police brutality, neo nazis etc.. in the same way there are decent people against wide open borders for economic and other legitimate reasons. They aren't all Nazis either.

If it makes some people feel better to think that there are degrees of scumbag, they are certainly entitled to that view. I think once you are a scumbag, it's pretty irrelevant just how scummy you are. Trouble has specifically followed both BLM and Antifa because they are NOT the good guys.

By your estimation are there "decent people" attending white supremacist rallies?

[ReplayRandall]

Apparently comprehension isn't your strong suit. I literally said there are bad apples in the black rights movement... however... I refuse to believe those images represent the majority of black rights protestors. The photos of saod evemts would back me up on this. You're looking only for things that fit your narrative.

Again, whatever you say E-traveller......You're fooling no one but yourself, the evidence speaks for itself, whether it's CNN or Fox News, the events and images in MY city don't lie.....

[dkithore]

"This all began because someone decided, as other elected officials have across the country, to cave in to partisan political pressures and seek to erase American history. History is not there for us to love or hate, but for us to learn from and seek to not repeat its mistakes.

If there are those who truly believe we protect ourselves by trying to revise history due to false emotions, then we miss out on who we are as a nation, and our evolution. The statues of long since deceased leaders of the Confederate Army do not stand to remind anyone of oppression. And if a statue can oppress you, then I submit that you have greater issues."


https://www.allenbwest.com/2017/08/13/ok-folks-heres-really-happened-charlottesville-everyone-missing/
:ThmbUp:

[classhandicapper]

By your estimation are there "decent people" attending white supremacist rallies?

I am 100% certain there are decent people that can make an intellectually honest case for not removing statues of Lee, renaming buildings and streets etc... I just had a conversation with a Jewish friend of mine with an education in history that made that case to me. I suggested all the confederate statues should be moved to a museum so we don't lose the history and education aspect of them but also don't celebrate them. He thought that was a reasonable compromise, but still thought they should remain.

I don't know for sure because I wasn't there, but I strongly suspect that at least some of the people that were at that rally were more interested in the statue remaining than any hate filled feelings towards minorities.

Then there were white nationalist scumbags there using the statue issue as a rallying point for their racism. They came armed and ready for confrontation because they knew there would be leftist scumbags there that think the way to address bigotry, racism etc.. is to beat people up, destroy property, riot, loot, shoot cops etc...

They both came looking for a fight and they got one. Some innocent people got killed and hurt as a result.

IMO we need to start calling both sides out for their violence and arresting as many of them as we can when they break the law. In the mean time we also have to deal with people like those at the Washington Post that are coming dangerously close to inciting more violence. That's not a solution.

[ElKabong]

I am 100% certain there are decent people that can make an intellectually honest case for not removing statues of Lee, renaming buildings and streets etc... I just had a conversation with a Jewish friend of mine with an education in history that made that case to me. I suggested all the confederate statues should be moved to a museum so we don't lose the history and education aspect of them but also don't celebrate them. He thought that was a reasonable compromise, but still thought they should remain.

I don't know for sure because I wasn't there, but I strongly suspect that at least some of the people that were at that rally were more interested in the statue remaining than any hate filled feelings towards minorities.

Then there were white nationalist scumbags there using the statue issue as a rallying point for their racism. They came armed and ready for confrontation because they knew there would be leftist scumbags there that think the way to address bigotry, racism etc.. is to beat people up, destroy property, riot, loot, shoot cops etc...

They both came looking for a fight and they got one. Some innocent people got killed and hurt as a result.

IMO we need to start calling both sides out for their violence and arresting as many of them as we can when they break the law. In the mean time we also have to deal with people like those at the Washington Post that are coming dangerously close to inciting more violence. That's not a solution.

Your second paragraph is spot on, at least from original reports. Since then it's become "neo nazis vs the good guys" by CNN and elsewhere, describing each individual that was there.. The demonstration was to keep the statues in place, not to promote violence. Mix in the fringe right wing element, the fringe left wing element, results are what they are

Still, that isn't a demonstration I'd be onboard with joining. But they did have their right to assemble and have their voices heard, Imo.

Great post, class handicapper. I agree all around.

[Show Me the Wire]

Add Al Sharpton along with Angela Rye to the list of complete idiots who don't know the difference between racist Civil War leaders and the founding fathers. Most know who the rev is. For those who don't know Rye, she is the former executive director of the Congressional Black Caucus.

According to them George Washington is a slave owner and his statue/memorial along with Thomas Jefferson's and General Lee's must come down.

The left does not disappoint.

[Show Me the Wire]

.................................................. ...................

And regardless of our tin eared President's assertions otherwise, there is no slippery slope from removing Confederate statutes to renouncing Thomas Jefferson. Only complete idiots would be unable to understand the differences. [emphasis added]

You severely underestimate the amount of idiocy in the left wing of the dem party.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

By your estimation are there "decent people" attending white supremacist rallies?

100% sure nobody has said that.

Not even our current President; regardless of what our media tries to tell you.

In the end, THEY have a voice. Regardless of whether you support that voice or not, it is called the 1st Amendment. They even went about doing it the right way in securing their place.

Now why people with bats and clubs showed up to "oppose" their voice? I'd sure like to hear that superb reasoning.

[Show Me the Wire]

100% sure nobody has said that.

Not even our current President; regardless of what our media tries to tell you.

In the end, THEY have a voice. Regardless of whether you support that voice or not, it is called the 1st Amendment. They even went about doing it the right way in securing their place.

Now why people with bats and clubs showed up to "oppose" their voice? I'd sure like to hear that superb reasoning.

The Chair of the RNC denounced the white nationalists. Does anyone know, has the vulgarity spewing Chair of the DNC denounced the alt-left anarchists for their violence?

[Lemon Drop Husker]

The Chair of the RNC denounced the white nationalists. Does anyone know, has the vulgarity spewing Chair of the DNC denounced the alt-left anarchists for their violence?

No. Too busy "resisting", loving Hillary, and being a complete lefty loser.

Tom Perez. :pound:

[jimmyb]

Found this.



Actors and Photographers Wanted in Charlotte

Crowds on Demand, a Los Angeles-based Public Relations firm specializing in innovative events, is looking for enthusiastic actors and photographers in the Charlotte, NC area to participate in our events. Our events include everything from rallies to protests to corporate PR stunts to celebrity scenes. The biggest qualification is enthusiasm, a "can-do" spirit. Pay will vary by event but typically is $25+ per hour plus reimbursements for gas/parking/Uber/public transit.

For more information about us, please visit www.crowdsondemand.com (http://www.crowdsondemand.com)

If you're interested in working with us, please reply to this posting with the following info:


Full Name
Prior relevant experience (as an actor/performer, photographer, brand ambassador, political activist, etc)
When are you usually available for work?
Resume (optional)
If you're a photographer, what equipment do you use?
Are you ok with participating in peaceful protests (optional)?



So what is "Crowds on Demand?" According to their own website, they're in the business of sourcing large crowds of people to "provide clients with protests, rallies, [and] flash-mobs" all over the country. They even have an entire page on their website dedicated to "Protests and Rallies."

[Tom]

Does anyone know, has the vulgarity spewing Chair of the DNC denounced the alt-left anarchists for their violence?
.:pound::pound::pound:

No, but he has funded them!

:lol::lol::lol:

[JustRalph]

Vietnam Veterans are American Heroes, NOT LOSERS.
They fought for the U.S.A. in Vietnam not against us.

Conferates were traitors that tried to break up the United States & thankfully lost.
They were responsible for the deaths of more than 600,000 Americans.
The leaders should have been hung, not honored with Statues.

I will not dignify your personal attack against me with a response.

Umm......just saw this. I in no way was making a personal attack on you. I guess that you took it as I was calling "Vietnam vets" losers. And now I guess I can draw from your comments that you served in Vietnam.

I was speaking much more broadly. I was addressing your original, short post, that losers don't deserve statues. I stretched the thinking to say that if you stuck with that short definition that you could stretch that definition to Vietnam vets and the memorial. Which in my mind is up next on the agenda of these wacky leftist.

Maybe I could have worded it better. But please, in no way take offense. I wasn't speaking of anyone personally.

[rastajenk]

What should be the fate of the Phil Sheridan statue in Chicago, I think it is? He was on the good side, the winning side, the side that deserves monuments to eternal recognition.

He is also credited with the saying, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."

[Mulerider]

What should be the fate of the Phil Sheridan statue in Chicago, I think it is? He was on the good side, the winning side, the side that deserves monuments to eternal recognition.

He is also credited with the saying, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."

After the war Sheridan was appointed Military Governor of the Fifth Military District (Texas and Louisiana). While in that position, he is also credited with saying, "If I owned Texas and Hell, I would rent out Texas and live in Hell."

So, yeah, take his statue down. :D

Mule

[DSB]

After the war Sheridan was appointed Military Governor of the Fifth Military District (Texas and Louisiana). While in that position, he is also credited with saying, "If I owned Texas and Hell, I would rent out Texas and live in Hell."

So, yeah, take his statue down. :D

Mule
I've been to Texas.

Given the choice, I'd probably flip a coin. :)

[davew]

The Chair of the RNC denounced the white nationalists. Does anyone know, has the vulgarity spewing Chair of the DNC denounced the alt-left anarchists for their violence?

the last president brought them to the white house for strategy sessions

and money extorted from corporations in 'fines'

[Clocker]

You severely underestimate the amount of idiocy in the left wing of the dem party.

The Democrats have a long tradition of a big annual fund raising event called Jefferson-Jackson Day in honor of the two founders of the modern Democratic Party. State parties are starting to drop that name as the those past presidents become more and more politically incorrect. New Hampshire now calls their get-together Kennedy-Clinton Day.

[Tom]

But the party itself should be disbanded, as it is a statue of the core principle of the left - racism.

[Marshall Bennett]

The Jefferson nickle is no doubt a symbol of racism. Jefferson City Missouri is symbolic of racism also. Anyone who's surname is Jefferson or Lee is racist.
Seriously, where is the line drawn? The far left has no fear of using ignorance to motivate an agenda, so I see no lines.

[PaceAdvantage]

And regardless of our tin eared President's assertions otherwise, there is no slippery slope from removing Confederate statutes to renouncing Thomas Jefferson.You are dead wrong on that one, and my saying so has nothing to do with Trump.

I said not too long that the US FLAG would soon be in jeopardy (this was during the confederate flag hysteria Part ??) a few years back...I stand by that, and by soon, I mean within my lifetime, and I'm 48.

Jefferson is a slam dunk compared to the FLAG, and you find Jefferson nonsense? :lol:

Whatever...if we keep going down this path, Jefferson will without a doubt be the next "public enemy" if he isn't already.

[johnhannibalsmith]

You are dead wrong on that one, and my saying so has nothing to do with Trump.

I said not too long that the US FLAG would soon be in jeopardy (this was during the confederate flag hysteria Part ??) a few years back...I stand by that, and by soon, I mean within my lifetime, and I'm 48.

Jefferson is a slam dunk compared to the FLAG, and you find Jefferson nonsense? :lol:

Whatever...if we keep going down this path, Jefferson will without a doubt be the next "public enemy" if he isn't already.

The local political roundtable after Meet The Press featured some college-plus aged twit declaring Jefferson and Washington white supremacists that we needed to stop paying tribute to. And of three other people, nobody would refute or shut her silly ass up. They just sat there and listened. And that's the problem.

[Tom]

Those statues have stood for decades.
The problem is not them, but the mindless, useless, idiot running around out there.

We need fire hoses on these crowds.

[Tom]

The local political roundtable after Meet The Press featured some college-plus aged twit declaring Jefferson and Washington white supremacists that we needed to stop paying tribute to. And of three other people, nobody would refute or shut her silly ass up. They just sat there and listened. And that's the problem.

Have me as a guest next week.
I promise to make it BEAT the Press.

Washington and Jefferson did more for this nation than ALL of the democrats alive today. And more than all the future democrats will EVER do for it.

A college education is becoming more of a disease than anything.
A liberal arts degree is a joke.

[Mulerider]

Jefferson is a slam dunk compared to the FLAG, and you find Jefferson nonsense? :lol:

Whatever...if we keep going down this path, Jefferson will without a doubt be the next "public enemy" if he isn't already.

Students protest Thomas Jefferson statue, call for its removal (https://www.columbiamissourian.com/news/local/students-protest-thomas-jefferson-statue-call-for-its-removal/article_8c1d6bb2-6d57-11e5-9051-17eb054002a6.html)

Columbia University: Thomas Jefferson statue at Columbia protested as 'symbol of violence against black and brown bodies' (https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/32226/)

And why stop at Thomas Jefferson?

Chicago: Pastor wants presidents' names removed from Washington, Jackson Parks over ties to slavery
(https://www.columbiamissourian.com/news/local/students-protest-thomas-jefferson-statue-call-for-its-removal/article_8c1d6bb2-6d57-11e5-9051-17eb054002a6.html)
George Washington will really be in trouble when the American Taliban hears about his great-granddaughter marrying Robert E. Lee.

Mule

[Fager Fan]

Vietnam Veterans are American Heroes, NOT LOSERS.
They fought for the U.S.A. in Vietnam not against us.

Conferates were traitors that tried to break up the United States & thankfully lost.
They were responsible for the deaths of more than 600,000 Americans.
The leaders should have been hung, not honored with Statues.

I will not dignify your personal attack against me with a response.

That's such BS. They weren't traitors. There was legitimate disagreement between some states and the fed gov in the early evolution of this country. There was disagreement over states rights, which yes, included the fed gov deciding for the states if slavery was allowed. There was disagreement over taxation as well.

Years of indoctrination that this war was only about slavery and that the South was evil has worked, but it's an incorrect version of history. Instead we should understand why the agricultural South felt war was necessary against the industrialized North. We should realize that slavery was a fact of its time, in the world, not just the US, and blacks also participated in slavery, both selling blacks to slavery and owning slaves themselves. Some blacks in the US were large slave owners.

If the war was just about slavery, then it'd have not seen so many who didn't own slaves fight for the cause.

Those people deserve to be remembered not as evil but instead as fighting bravely for self-determination. Soldiers gave their lives, and relatives gave loved ones. It serves no purpose to demonize a section of our country. One can be glad that the result was the end of slavery without demonizing.

As for the confederate flag, to anyone 60 and under, it stood for being a proud Southerner and nothing racist. It stood for Lynyrd Skynyrd and Southern rock, for being country instead of urban. It's sad to see such symbols used for bad purposes. Give up the symbol or refuse to give it up as a good symbol?

So maybe people need to step back and study the civil war and symbols like the confederate flag and see all the shades of gray. It wasn't black and white until political correctness made it so.

[Fager Fan]

The common solider fought because he was defending his home against what he considered to be an invasion. People at that time, especially in the south, considered themselves to be citizens of their state first, and of a country second. Yes, the majority of them were racists, but that is not why they fought. They fought to defend their homeland against a foreign invader.

The majority of Northerners were racist as well.

[Fager Fan]

Apparently comprehension isn't your strong suit. I literally said there are bad apples in the black rights movement... however... I refuse to believe those images represent the majority of black rights protestors. The photos of saod evemts would back me up on this. You're looking only for things that fit your narrative.

There are about 6 skinheads who caused zero real trouble until Charlottesville, while there are thousands of BLM and similar who have caused the deaths of an untold number of police and commit larceny, arson and vandalism on a regular basis.

Who here believes they'd be 100% safe, as safe as going to your neighborhood park, at a BLM rally? Based on all the news I've seen, I'd feel safer and far less likely to be personally attacked at a skinhead rally.

So don't defend BLM and their ilk. They're far, far from MLK-like.

[jms62]

That's such BS. They weren't traitors. There was legitimate disagreement between some states and the fed gov in the early evolution of this country. There was disagreement over states rights, which yes, included the fed gov deciding for the states if slavery was allowed. There was disagreement over taxation as well.

Years of indoctrination that this war was only about slavery and that the South was evil has worked, but it's an incorrect version of history. Instead we should understand why the agricultural South felt war was necessary against the industrialized North. We should realize that slavery was a fact of its time, in the world, not just the US, and blacks also participated in slavery, both selling blacks to slavery and owning slaves themselves. Some blacks in the US were large slave owners.

If the war was just about slavery, then it'd have not seen so many who didn't own slaves fight for the cause.

Those people deserve to be remembered not as evil but instead as fighting bravely for self-determination. Soldiers gave their lives, and relatives gave loved ones. It serves no purpose to demonize a section of our country. One can be glad that the result was the end of slavery without demonizing.

As for the confederate flag, to anyone 60 and under, it stood for being a proud Southerner and nothing racist. It stood for Lynyrd Skynyrd and Southern rock, for being country instead of urban. It's sad to see such symbols used for bad purposes. Give up the symbol or refuse to give it up as a good symbol?

So maybe people need to step back and study the civil war and symbols like the confederate flag and see all the shades of gray. It wasn't black and white until political correctness made it so.

:puke:

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by MONEY http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/buttons/green/viewpost.gif (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2208190#post2208190)


Conferates were traitors that tried to break up the United States & thankfully lost.

They were responsible for the deaths of more than 600,000 Americans.

The American colonists tried to break up the British Empire and thankfully won.

Why is it noble for a colony like Virginia to seek to secede from the British Empire, but not so to seek to secede from the Union? In the words of the founders, the government of the United States did not have "the consent of the governed" in the southern states.

From the Declaration of Independence:



We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

[Clocker]

The majority of Northerners were racist as well.

They weren't fighting to free the slaves, they were fighting to put down what they saw as an armed rebellion against their country.

Lincoln was very careful with the wording and the timing and the interpretation of the Emancipation Proclamation to avoid Northerners, especially those in the military, taking it as a statement that the war was being fought to free the slaves. He presented it as a tactic to weaken the Southern army and economy.

[Fager Fan]

:puke:

Great response. I guess I should count you in as one of the indoctrinated? That needs to do a lot of study on the civil war?

[Mulerider]

From the Declaration of Independence:

And from an unexpected source:

"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right -- a right which, we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit." -- Congressman Abraham Lincoln, July 12, 1848 (excerpt from speech on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives)

[jms62]

Great response. I guess I should count you in as one of the indoctrinated? That needs to do a lot of study on the civil war?

Your original post didn't warrant one.

[Dahoss9698]

As for the confederate flag, to anyone 60 and under, it stood for being a proud Southerner and nothing racist. It stood for Lynyrd Skynyrd and Southern rock, for being country instead of urban. It's sad to see such symbols used for bad purposes. Give up the symbol or refuse to give it up as a good symbol?

So maybe people need to step back and study the civil war and symbols like the confederate flag and see all the shades of gray. It wasn't black and white until political correctness made it so.

I love the broad brush that you paint with. Anyone under 60? Seriously?

Of course some people view it and use it like that, but many do not. It absolutely has stood for being racist for some people.

Maybe if you took sometime out from being Mr Internet you'd know a little about how the real world is.

[Dahoss9698]

There are about 6 skinheads who caused zero real trouble until Charlottesville, while there are thousands of BLM and similar who have caused the deaths of an untold number of police and commit larceny, arson and vandalism on a regular basis.

Who here believes they'd be 100% safe, as safe as going to your neighborhood park, at a BLM rally? Based on all the news I've seen, I'd feel safer and far less likely to be personally attacked at a skinhead rally.

So don't defend BLM and their ilk. They're far, far from MLK-like.

6?

:lol::lol::lol:

This was quite a post. I can't stop laughing. Telling someone to stop defending BLM (who I am no fan of), while you defend skinheads.

No wonder you didn't want to name a horse you owned. :lol:

[fast4522]

what everyone is missing, and is the best part. . . . . . . . .

[Fager Fan]

6?

:lol::lol::lol:

This was quite a post. I can't stop laughing. Telling someone to stop defending BLM (who I am no fan of), while you defend skinheads.

No wonder you didn't want to name a horse you owned. :lol:

It's not surprising that sarcasm is lost on you. It takes some intelligence.

[Dahoss9698]

It's not surprising that sarcasm is lost on you. It takes some intelligence.

How was your swim?

[Tom]

The American colonists tried to break up the British Empire and thankfully won.

Why is it noble for a colony like Virginia to seek to secede from the British Empire, but not so to seek to secede from the Union? In the words of the founders, the government of the United States did not have "the consent of the governed" in the southern states.

From the Declaration of Independence:

Excellent post which will be lost on the pea brains.
They did what they thought was in their best interests, they lost, and they came back to the union.

How many other countries have fought a civil war an reunited with the success we did.

BOTH sides, the North and the South are OUR history, our heritage.
Too bad as we grew as a nation, our citizens regressed backwards to the point that many today are not capable of cognitive thought or even taking care of themselves.
Can we send the snowflakes back to England?
They serve no purpose around here.