How to start a new racetrack

[highnote]

There are posts in this topic in the keeneland thread and in off-topic. It seems better to have thread here instead.

[highnote]

If you have not been following here is a summary.

We are calling this new track Bush League Downs.

It will be operated on a shoestring budget but the signal will be distributed worldwide.

This will be a horseplayer friendly track. No rebates, but lowest takeout on the planet, but still high enough that ADW's can profit from handling the signal.

I have been looking for a location and might have found suitable land. Pictures to follow later.

We will raise money for the track through equity crowd funding. That means small investors can own shares in the track.

Lots of small details to workout. But I may have cracked the code for the most important one -- getting enough horses. Details later. Need to talk to some horsemen first to be sure it would work.

Please feel free to comment -- positive and negative welcome. Negative are better because it keeps the project grounded in reality.

[Lafecs]

Can I have some of what you're smoking? Bush League Downs? :pound:

[AlsoEligible]

Fine, I'll play along. But first, where is the land located? Jurisdiction will make a world of difference in how many "small details" you have to work out here.

[porchy44]

Lets call it "Pinnacle Race Course".

[jimmyb]

Here is a place with 100 plus acres for 3.5 mil complete with a 3/4 mile track and 102 stalls to house the vanned in stock. A place to reside completes this.

https://www.ocalahorseproperties.com/property-details/1373-350091-ocala-farm-for-sale/

[Fager Fan]

If you have not been following here is a summary.

We are calling this new track Bush League Downs.

It will be operated on a shoestring budget but the signal will be distributed worldwide.

This will be a horseplayer friendly track. No rebates, but lowest takeout on the planet, but still high enough that ADW's can profit from handling the signal.

I have been looking for a location and might have found suitable land. Pictures to follow later.

We will raise money for the track through equity crowd funding. That means small investors can own shares in the track.

Lots of small details to workout. But I may have cracked the code for the most important one -- getting enough horses. Details later. Need to talk to some horsemen first to be sure it would work.

Please feel free to comment -- positive and negative welcome. Negative are better because it keeps the project grounded in reality.

I assume you're serious.

I'd advise you to get the financials from an existing track so you have some clue about the costs for running a track.

Here's an article for you to read:

https://www.theracingbiz.com/2017/03/16/effort-build-track-morven-park-virginia-racing-interests-regroup/

You'll glean from the article that it costs $30-$40 million to build a track, and costs $2 million or so to just maintain it yearly. Every time you have to replace the track surface, it's about $5 million a pop. And we haven't even gotten into staff salary.

I'm real interested in hearing how you think you'll get the horses and horsemen to your new track.

I'd look at leasing an existing plant, not building a new one, by the way. Even that is no easy task, as I know of several entities who have tried to lease facilities over the past years to no avail.

[highnote]

I assume you're serious.

I'd advise you to get the financials from an existing track so you have some clue about the costs for running a track.

Here's an article for you to read:

https://www.theracingbiz.com/2017/03/16/effort-build-track-morven-park-virginia-racing-interests-regroup/

You'll glean from the article that it costs $30-$40 million to build a track, and costs $2 million or so to just maintain it yearly. Every time you have to replace the track surface, it's about $5 million a pop. And we haven't even gotten into staff salary.

I'm real interested in hearing how you think you'll get the horses and horsemen to your new track.

I'd look at leasing an existing plant, not building a new one, by the way. Even that is no easy task, as I know of several entities who have tried to lease facilities over the past years to no avail.

Interesting, but if Bush League Downs (BLD) tries to be like the other tracks it will get the same results.

To be successful a completely different approach is needed.

[sour grapes]

this is complete fantasy,tracks are losing tons of money and you think you can change the economics of this game,Reality check is that only the strong will survive,in fact their is a long thread on how contraction is needed for the game to survive so more horses filter to the better tracks with bigger fields.Good luck though.

[jimmyb]

A better starting point may be to find what the Tracks do well and work it from there. Also, some new ideas may be good in theory, but not in practical use.

Some things they do well are, the wagering menus, frequent odds updates, replay monitors, simulcast up the ying-yang, instant access to cash.

Feel free to add.

[elhelmete]

No business model/operational details, no specified location/jurisdiction, no details about your secret idea to attract a horde of horses. But please comment...???????

[Parkview_Pirate]

In theory, BLD could make a splash with low takeouts, high quality racing - especially if the horseplayer felt he/she was getting a more fair shake in terms of monitoring the game (no race day meds, penalize jocks for boat rides, ban for life when using buzzers, secure tote controls, etc.)

In reality, like any other business today, BLD would have to overcome the governmental regulations, made even worse by the fact that racing is "evil" gambling. The sport has a long history of politicians wanting their grease to allow it. It would be difficult to overcome the existing power structure, including the horsemen's groups, in states where racing is active.

And most importantly, the economy and people with discretionary income to wager on the races and own horses is continuing to shrink. Short of support of a member or two of the .001% like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett (after first talking them off their "charitable" interests), BLD is a non-starter....

[ultracapper]

In theory, BLD could make a splash with low takeouts, high quality racing - especially if the horseplayer felt he/she was getting a more fair shake in terms of monitoring the game (no race day meds, penalize jocks for boat rides, ban for life when using buzzers, secure tote controls, etc.)

In reality, like any other business today, BLD would have to overcome the governmental regulations, made even worse by the fact that racing is "evil" gambling. The sport has a long history of politicians wanting their grease to allow it. It would be difficult to overcome the existing power structure, including the horsemen's groups, in states where racing is active.

And most importantly, the economy and people with discretionary income to wager on the races and own horses is continuing to shrink. Short of support of a member or two of the .001% like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett (after first talking them off their "charitable" interests), BLD is a non-starter....

Anyone that doesn't see the significance of these highlighted statements will never successfully change this game to any degree.

[highnote]

Some racing takes place in jurisdictions that do not allow pari-mutuel racing. Is there anything to stop those tracks from selling their signal to ADWs even though on-track betting not allowed?

[highnote]

No business model/operational details, no specified location/jurisdiction, no details about your secret idea to attract a horde of horses. But please comment...???????

I only started posting about this a few days ago in response to the uproar about Keeneland. And you want to see a location and business plan! :D

I said that the track would need to be located near a population center. It probably doesn't make sense to have it in northwest North Dakota. But it makes sense to have it somewhere in the Midwest where land prices are reasonable.

It might be possible to lease land. It makes sense to have a grass course because it is practically already built by nature.

Whoever said anything about attracting a horde of horses?

[AlsoEligible]

I have been looking for a location and might have found suitable land. Pictures to follow later.


I only started posting about this a few days ago in response to the uproar about Keeneland. And you want to see a location and business plan!

So do you have a location or not? Yesterday you did, today you apparently don't.

I actually was going to take this seriously (or at least as seriously as possible), but now I'll agree with the first guy who responded...can we have some of what you're smoking?

[chenoa]

Leave lots of room for the SLOTS~~:lol::lol:

[highnote]

So do you have a location or not? Yesterday you did, today you apparently don't.

I actually was going to take this seriously (or at least as seriously as possible), but now I'll agree with the first guy who responded...can we have some of what you're smoking?

So I am supposed to lock down a location in a couple of days?

I wish it worked that way.

First you have to identify locations and then you have to have cash for the transaction.

Have you ever tried to do anything of this magnitude before? Rome wasn't built in a day as you have probably heard before.

Keep the comments coming. These all need to be addressed at some point.

[highnote]

Leave lots of room for the SLOTS~~:lol::lol:

Bush League Downs will not need slots. But if they do get them takeouts will be decreased even more.

Maybe the name of the track should be Horseplayer Downs. :ThmbUp:

[elhelmete]

So I am supposed to lock down a location in a couple of days?

I wish it worked that way.

First you have to identify locations and then you have to have cash for the transaction.

Have you ever tried to do anything of this magnitude before? Rome wasn't built in a day as you have probably heard before.

Keep the comments coming. These all need to be addressed at some point.

You initially made it sound like you had a model and a plan for operation. I guess I was wrong.

Good luck.

I'm reminded of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM

[Fager Fan]

So I am supposed to lock down a location in a couple of days?

I wish it worked that way.

First you have to identify locations and then you have to have cash for the transaction.

Have you ever tried to do anything of this magnitude before? Rome wasn't built in a day as you have probably heard before.

Keep the comments coming. These all need to be addressed at some point.

If you want to have this hypothetical discussion, then you need to supply a reasonably well thought out plan for us to then point to its problems.

In another post, you said something about a turf course would be great as it's already built by nature. I really don't wish to be insulting, but between this statement and the crowd-funding and knowing how you're going to get this great population of horses, without even a location in mind, it's striking me that you're totally ignorant about what running a racetrack would cost and entail and about business in general.

This whole thread is just pissing in the wind.

[highnote]

If you want to have this hypothetical discussion, then you need to supply a reasonably well thought out plan for us to then point to its problems.

In another post, you said something about a turf course would be great as it's already built by nature. I really don't wish to be insulting, but between this statement and the crowd-funding and knowing how you're going to get this great population of horses, without even a location in mind, it's striking me that you're totally ignorant about what running a racetrack would cost and entail and about business in general.

This whole thread is just pissing in the wind.

I won't argue that I am ignorant if a lot of things. If perfect knowledge was a prerequisite no business would ever get off the ground.

The whole idea behind this thread is to get ideas on how to help horseplayers. I hear a lot of bitching about takeouts, but no solutions.

I hear a lot of criticism about BLD but not many ideas on how to make a horseplayer owned track a reality.

That's ok. Not everyone is a visionary and an entrepreneur.

[highnote]

You initially made it sound like you had a model and a plan for operation. I guess I was wrong.

Good luck.

I don't recall saying I had, as you seem to be implying, a concrete model and a plan.

I have rough idea on how to go about building a horseplayer owned track. It is a large undertaking. I have only been thinking semi-deeply about it for a few days.

I think it is doable. But I would like to get as much feedback as possible -- both positive and negative. The negative comments are as welcomed as the positive ones because a lot can be learned by thinking about them.

I have identified one specific possible location, but I need to find out who owns the land. I have also searched the surrounding county and identified several farms with suitable land.

Could any of these properties be rented or purchased? I don't know. I have to talk to the owners.

If the land could be obtained it will then need to be cleared to make the track.

Cutting down trees and mowing the brush will take time.

Since the meeting will be of limited length a large population of horses won't be needed.

Perhaps the track can own the horses and hire trainers? What would that entail? I don't know. It is just one possibility of the multitude of different scenarios.

I figure I can either sit around and bitch about the state of the industry and how high takeouts, rebates, or completion from other forms of gambling are killing the game or I can try to find solutions.

The fact that people are reading this thread and making positive or negative posts is a good sign. They comment because they care.

[AlsoEligible]

I have identified one specific possible location, but I need to find out who owns the land. I have also searched the surrounding county and identified several farms with suitable land.

Again, what state is this county in? If you want us to play along with your hypothetical race track, we need to know the jurisdiction, even if it's not a confirmed location yet.

Like if you're trying to buy land and open another track in California or Florida, don't waste your time. If it's in Montana or Kansas (just throwing out state names), that's a very different story.

[Fager Fan]

I don't recall saying I had, as you seem to be implying, a concrete model and a plan.

I have rough idea on how to go about building a horseplayer owned track. It is a large undertaking. I have only been thinking semi-deeply about it for a few days.

I think it is doable. But I would like to get as much feedback as possible -- both positive and negative. The negative comments are as welcomed as the positive ones because a lot can be learned by thinking about them.

I have identified one specific possible location, but I need to find out who owns the land. I have also searched the surrounding county and identified several farms with suitable land.

Could any of these properties be rented or purchased? I don't know. I have to talk to the owners.

If the land could be obtained it will then need to be cleared to make the track.

Cutting down trees and mowing the brush will take time.

Since the meeting will be of limited length a large population of horses won't be needed.

Perhaps the track can own the horses and hire trainers? What would that entail? I don't know. It is just one possibility of the multitude of different scenarios.

I figure I can either sit around and bitch about the state of the industry and how high takeouts, rebates, or completion from other forms of gambling are killing the game or I can try to find solutions.

The fact that people are reading this thread and making positive or negative posts is a good sign. They comment because they care.

You can't just buy some land and build a track, you know, unless you plan on racing Breyer horses that no one gambles on.

How are you going to get the tens of millions needed to buy the land and build the complex and track surfaces?

Own the horses and hire the trainers? Gosh, let's say it's 1500 horses at $10,000 each, so that's $15m. You won't find any sane trainers who will train said horses, so let's assume you find about 30 insane trainers at $60/day, so you'll be paying them $90,000 a day to train those 1500 horses, or $2.7m a month (and $32,400,000 a year). You also have to pay for all the equipment and employees to tend to the surface, man the starting gates, outride, security, and all the track facility staff, so add a few more million.

How's this for a start?

[1GCFAN]

Hey, thinking outside the box is good. :headbanger:There are some locations/jurisdictions that have seen their revenue dwindle. You might be able to convince a racing commission that your plan would work (produce more revenue).

[highnote]

Again, what state is this county in? If you want us to play along with your hypothetical race track, we need to know the jurisdiction, even if it's not a confirmed location yet.

Like if you're trying to buy land and open another track in California or Florida, don't waste your time. If it's in Montana or Kansas (just throwing out state names), that's a very different story.

I'm thinking maybe someplace in Ohio or Indiana because I am relatively familiar with those states. Farm land in IN is probably more expensive than in OH.

I have a relative who owns a ranch in OK where he raises buffalo. He's trains horses to rope steers for rodeos and practices on the buffalo. He's also a blacksmith. He owns excavating equipment. Hell, he could build the track, shoe the horses, and provide the land now that I think about it! I'll have to ask him what land prices are like there. Lots of horse farms near where he lives. It kind of reminded me of Lexington and Paris, KY, although not as green.

If you could draw a big square with the cities of Pittsburgh in the east, to Omaha in the west, to St. Paul, MN in the north and Memphis or Oklahoma City to the south lying on the edges of the square you should be able to find something.

I have not looked at land prices in all these states, so I don't know which has the least expensive.

Detroit is a mess. You'd think you could get a hold of some industrial land and redevelop it for cheap.

Perhaps old strip mined land or other industrial land that is not suitable for growing crops due to contamination could be reclaimed. It is probably save to walk on -- as long as the horses don't eat the grass that grows there!

Hmmm -- how do you keep a horse from eating grass?

[highnote]

You can't just buy some land and build a track, you know, unless you plan on racing Breyer horses that no one gambles on.

People will gamble where they can find an edge. Arabian races are fairly popular. It's all a matter of how you structure the racing. If every race was a a true handicap that gave each horse a good chance of winning, handicapping would be important. Too many short fields with low priced winners in the U.S. make for an unpopular product, even though I have argued low priced winners are exciting if you bet enough money on them.

How are you going to get the tens of millions needed to buy the land and build the complex and track surfaces?

No way it would take tens of millions. In fact, the budget is going to be $1 million. This is going to be a country track with no grandstand. Look at those jump courses down south. I doubt they cost tens of millions to cut a track through a field and put up some timber jumps and railings.

Own the horses and hire the trainers? Gosh, let's say it's 1500 horses at $10,000 each, so that's $15m.

1500 horses would be unrealistic at first because there is no place to keep them. It doesn't make sense to build a 1500 horse stable. This ain't going to be the Hong Kong Jockey Club. :D Remember this is Bush League Downs and it will be a short meet. If it looks promising then more dates can be added.

In order to be a going concern, BLD might have to return to the roots of racing -- heat racing rather than dash racing. In heat racing, the horses ran 4 miles heats. The first one to win two heats was declared the winner. Nowadays, heat races are far more popular and the winner of one heat (a dash) wins the race.

The breed has tilted toward speed and away from stamina. I would love to see stamina become more highly valued like in early colonial days of American racing. Back then heat races were popular. I'm sure they could still be exciting and popular

I have thought of some interesting twists on heat racing that do not require a large population of horses. The heats would be handicap races. So it would be more like betting on NFL football than a match race between Secretariat and Onion where Secretariat would be 1/20 and Onion would be 20/1. Sometimes Onion would win, but most of the time it would not be a great betting event. But what if Secretariat carried 168 points to Onion's 125? Which horse would be the first to win two four mile heats? Now it starts to get interesting.

Granted, the cheap claimers at BLD would not be anywhere in the same league with Big Red, but that's not the goal. The goal is to make interesting and novel betting events. Handicapped heat racing can accomplish that.

It might be possible for, say, a field of 14 horses to run six 6 furlong heats -- that's a total 4.5 miles. The winner of each heat would win a small purse. Knowing that they have to race 6 heats, I would expect the jockeys to rate their horses for the first 4 furlongs and then sprint to the wire. At the end of the day, the horses would have sprinted only 8 furlongs over about an 8 hour period. The winner of the most heats or perhaps the winner of the final heat would get the largest share of the purse.

With this method, only a small group of horses are needed to run a full day of races. Plus they would be handicap races which would help even out the odds.

This is the first iteration of the idea. Its a start. It might have some potential. If not, then maybe I will think of something else.

You won't find any sane trainers who will train said horses, so let's assume you find about 30 insane trainers at $60/day, so you'll be paying them $90,000 a day to train those 1500 horses, or $2.7m a month (and $32,400,000 a year).

I have seen healthy young thoroughbreds for sale for $500. I know this for a fact because my trainer bought one for the syndicate I started several years ago. He broke his maiden after about 5 races at Mountaineer Park. We made a little money and then sold him privately and he became a jumper in Georgia.

You also have to pay for all the equipment and employees to tend to the surface, man the starting gates, outride, security, and all the track facility staff, so add a few more million.

Good points. Very little equipment will be needed. This is Bush League Downs. A tractor to keep the track mowed will be needed, but if we lease land from a farmer, he probably has a tractor and would be happy to earn extra money to keep the course mowed.

No starting gates needed. We'll do a flag drop -- just like in the old, old days.

Many countries don't use outriders because their horses are well trained, but you'll probably need a few people on horseback in case a horse breaks loose.

Security -- local police can be hired or a security firm. There won't be any crowd. So crowd control won't be an issue.

Staff? You mean investors. BLD will be financed by Equity Crowd Funding. We can get a few investors to help out with growing their company. Afterall, the more successful the track becomes the more the investors make.

Other staff could be 4H volunteers. We'll be in farm country so there is bound to be a 4H club around. Internship opportunities will abound.

The goal is not to recreate Belmont Park. The goal is to create a horseplayer owned and operated track that is horseplayer friendly.

How's this for a start?

TERRIFIC! Keep 'em coming!

I fully expect a lot of criticism and perhaps some name calling. But what the heck. Just like a politician, you have to have a thick skin. Elon Musk actually managed to building electric cars and send rockets into space and he still gets criticized! :faint:

[elhelmete]

Had to check my calendar to make sure it's not 4/1...

[onefast99]

Leave lots of room for the SLOTS~~:lol::lol:
You will need slots to fuel the purses, take the slots away from NYRA and you are running for peanuts. Unless you have a Saratoga type setting you are better off investing in land and building homes.

[highnote]

Had to check my calendar to make sure it's not 4/1...

4/20 more like it. :jump:

But seriously... the max budget is $1 million -- probably 5% less.

I believe a company is only allowed to raise $1 million from Equity Crowd Funding. Fees have to be taken out of that. The crowd funding site probably takes 5-7%?

Lawyer fees, accounting fees, etc.

Then you also have to set aside money to leave yourself some runway to get off the ground.

So maybe you have a budget of $500,000 to start and set aside another $250-350 thousand to make it through a year.

Midwestern farm land prices are on the decline. Ohio and Illinois lead the list. Wealthy people are leaving Illinois due to the high taxes. It's going to get worse there because the state has enormous pension problems. That means higher taxes. When states are hungry for revenue that opens the door for innovative businesses that can startup for low cost.

It would be great to be an auto parts magnate and have hundreds of millions to throw at racetracks, lobbyists, and expensive horses.

In order for BLD to get up and running a lot of outside the box thinking is needed.

Investors need to know there is a big risk that the track won't make it through a year -- maybe won't even make it to opening day.

But if it does get off the ground, it could become a nice little revenue generator and the stock could become worth substantially more than it was bought for.

The same principles apply to investing in startups as in betting on horses -- is there an edge, what are the odds, how large is your bankroll, is it scalable, how much can you afford to lose?

You can either be part of a revolution or sit on the sidelines. As Andy Beyer said, people who don't bet on horse races do not understand the deliciousness of uncertainty. Same with investing in startups.

There are samurai and there are rice pickers and there are a lot fewer samurai. It's dangerous and it's lonely. But the rewards can be huge.

Profit is the reward for taking risk.

:cool: :ThmbUp:

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Rolling pick4s and 5s and find a new pair of Beulah Park twins. Boom successful race track :D

[highnote]

Rolling pick4s and 5s and find a new pair of Beulah Park twins. Boom successful race track :D

I like it! There are plenty of commentators and analysts who would love to have a shot at getting some on-air experience. They'll have to do it for free, though. No money in the budget.

With 6 races per day, every card will have rolling bets as well as pick6 and pick5.

10% takeouts across the board on all bets -- lower, if possible.

What is the lowest viable amount a signal can be sold for?

I assume popular tracks like Belmont or Santa Anita can charge a premium while less popular tracks like Canterbury must sell at a discount?

BLD must have the lowest cost signal in the industry, but will still need to generate money from betting handle to cover some expenses and subsidize purses.

Sponsorship is another source of revenue.

BLD will encourage jockeys to wear silks with corporate sponsors and trainers to put sponsors' names on the horses -- like NASCAR.

The goal is for the track to at least breakeven in year 1. We want the jockeys and trainers to feel racing at BLD is worth their while. We want horseplayers to enjoy the lowest takeouts in the world.

If this happens in year 1 then shareholders equity will increase.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I like it! There are plenty of commentators and analysts who would love to have a shot at getting some on-air experience. They'll have to do it for free, though. No money in the budget.

With 6 races per day, every card will have rolling bets as well as pick6 and pick5.

10% takeouts across the board on all bets -- lower, if possible.

What is the lowest viable amount a signal can be sold for?

I assume popular tracks like Belmont or Santa Anita can charge a premium while less popular tracks like Canterbury must sell at a discount?

BLD must have the lowest cost signal in the industry, but will still need to generate money from betting handle to cover some expenses and subsidize purses.

Sponsorship is another source of revenue.

BLD will encourage jockeys to wear silks with corporate sponsors and trainers to put sponsors' names on the horses -- like NASCAR.

The goal is for the track to at least breakeven in year 1. We want the jockeys and trainers to feel racing at BLD is worth their while. We want horseplayers to enjoy the lowest takeouts in the world.

If this happens in year 1 then shareholders equity will increase.

You can sell your signal for whatever you want, but keep in mind you would need ALOT of handle to make up for the difference. In todays market we live in a simulcast/export world. Wagering is trending towards online platforms so expect your on/off handle split to be something like 15/85. Could be worse depending on location.

Outlets love high takeout and most ADWs kick back rebates and whatever else to their players. Say you charged 4% for your signal, takeout is 10% on all wagers. Guest earns the takeout, we get 4% and they have 6% to work with to make stat payments/horsemen before they even get to a figure they earn. With $1 in every $5 wagered from CRWs that operate just to earn a rebate, you can expect that handle to disappear. Add to that, your 4% earned in a host fee usually gets split 50/50 with horsemen, then your stat payments.

I am all for lower takeout, just a fine line to walk when you line up all the pieces and where the money goes. You can see why racing trends towards big days. If the track has luxury amenities, that is where the money/margins are.

[highnote]

You can sell your signal for whatever you want, but keep in mind you would need ALOT of handle to make up for the difference. In todays market we live in a simulcast/export world. Wagering is trending towards online platforms so expect your on/off handle split to be something like 15/85. Could be worse depending on location.

Outlets love high takeout and most ADWs kick back rebates and whatever else to their players. Say you charged 4% for your signal, takeout is 10% on all wagers. Guest earns the takeout, we get 4% and they have 6% to work with to make stat payments/horsemen before they even get to a figure they earn. With $1 in every $5 wagered from CRWs that operate just to earn a rebate, you can expect that handle to disappear. Add to that, your 4% earned in a host fee usually gets split 50/50 with horsemen, then your stat payments.

I am all for lower takeout, just a fine line to walk when you line up all the pieces and where the money goes. You can see why racing trends towards big days. If the track has luxury amenities, that is where the money/margins are.

Excellent info. This is exactly the kind info that is needed to build a plan around. There are a lot of constraints. The tough questions to answer are how to optimize (maximize/minimize) all the different objective functions.

[AlsoEligible]

So just to recap, we're talking about leasing farm land in a rural area, and paying for that farmer to maintain the track with his own tractor. There will be no grandstand, no starting gate, no crowds, and presumably little to no amenities.

Are you budgeting money for a totalizator company? You can sell the signal to ADWs, but you still need a conduit for ADW money to get into your pools. You also need a totalizator to be able to calculate odds leading up to the race, lock betting on time, and calculate prices after each race finishes.

For the people who do show up, how will they bet? Will you lease terminals from the tote company to have on-track? If so you probably need some sort of structure to put them in (you can't leave them out in the elements, unless you want to pay for new equipment every time it rains). Plus you'll need electricity and internet access.

If you are going to have betting machines on-track, will you have tellers as well, or only self service?

If you're going to export your signal to ADWs, people need to be able to watch the race online. How are you broadcasting a video signal? Again you're talking about a decent amount of equipment, electricity, networking, etc. Or will someone with a GoPro just stream the races for free online?

After a day of racing with $2.5k in handle from TVG, and $4k from XpressBet, $3k from TwinSpires, etc...you need to be able to settle up with all of these entities. Are you hiring accountants for this, or paying for a third party service that specializes in pari-mutuel accounting? Neither option is cheap.

Even if you were able to address all of the items we're talking about, and even if this bastardized track met all of the requirements to be granted a racing license from a state commission...which are both long shots....you still need people to bet on it.

I can't speak for everyone here, but my bankroll is only so big, and even if the takeout was 0%, I can't see myself spending any of it on flag-drop heat races between $500 horses on a shoddy track in the middle of a farm. You're cutting way too many corners for this to be an appealing product to players - which is the entire point.

[castaway01]

People will gamble where they can find an edge. Arabian races are fairly popular. It's all a matter of how you structure the racing. If every race was a a true handicap that gave each horse a good chance of winning, handicapping would be important. Too many short fields with low priced winners in the U.S. make for an unpopular product, even though I have argued low priced winners are exciting if you bet enough money on them.



No way it would take tens of millions. In fact, the budget is going to be $1 million. This is going to be a country track with no grandstand. Look at those jump courses down south. I doubt they cost tens of millions to cut a track through a field and put up some timber jumps and railings.



1500 horses would be unrealistic at first because there is no place to keep them. It doesn't make sense to build a 1500 horse stable. This ain't going to be the Hong Kong Jockey Club. :D Remember this is Bush League Downs and it will be a short meet. If it looks promising then more dates can be added.

In order to be a going concern, BLD might have to return to the roots of racing -- heat racing rather than dash racing. In heat racing, the horses ran 4 miles heats. The first one to win two heats was declared the winner. Nowadays, heat races are far more popular and the winner of one heat (a dash) wins the race.

The breed has tilted toward speed and away from stamina. I would love to see stamina become more highly valued like in early colonial days of American racing. Back then heat races were popular. I'm sure they could still be exciting and popular

I have thought of some interesting twists on heat racing that do not require a large population of horses. The heats would be handicap races. So it would be more like betting on NFL football than a match race between Secretariat and Onion where Secretariat would be 1/20 and Onion would be 20/1. Sometimes Onion would win, but most of the time it would not be a great betting event. But what if Secretariat carried 168 points to Onion's 125? Which horse would be the first to win two four mile heats? Now it starts to get interesting.

Granted, the cheap claimers at BLD would not be anywhere in the same league with Big Red, but that's not the goal. The goal is to make interesting and novel betting events. Handicapped heat racing can accomplish that.

It might be possible for, say, a field of 14 horses to run six 6 furlong heats -- that's a total 4.5 miles. The winner of each heat would win a small purse. Knowing that they have to race 6 heats, I would expect the jockeys to rate their horses for the first 4 furlongs and then sprint to the wire. At the end of the day, the horses would have sprinted only 8 furlongs over about an 8 hour period. The winner of the most heats or perhaps the winner of the final heat would get the largest share of the purse.

With this method, only a small group of horses are needed to run a full day of races. Plus they would be handicap races which would help even out the odds.

This is the first iteration of the idea. Its a start. It might have some potential. If not, then maybe I will think of something else.


So you're going to get $500 horses that are probably broken down (I deleted that part to shorten it) AND make them run 4.5 miles a day for "a small purse" AND make them carry heavy handicap weights AND want jockeys to basically risk their lives for free AND you also claim this racing is somehow horseplayer-friendly?

I admit that I want some of whatever you're smoking, but if you actually read what you wrote it's not only stupid but cruel to people and animals alike.

[highnote]

So you're going to get $500 horses that are probably broken down (I deleted that part to shorten it) AND make them run 4.5 miles a day for "a small purse" AND make them carry heavy handicap weights AND want jockeys to basically risk their lives for free AND you also claim this racing is somehow horseplayer-friendly?

I admit that I want some of whatever you're smoking, but if you actually read what you wrote it's not only stupid but cruel to people and animals alike.

Our $500 horse had never raced. It was as healthy as a newborn.

Horses can run a hundred miles a day. A typical horse can sustain a gallop of two miles. Running 4.5 miles spread out over the course of a day is nothing for horses that have been properly conditioned.

Most American horseplayers seem to think that horses can only run a maximum of 12 furlongs in the Belmont Stakes once in a lifetime.

As far as being dangerous. Anytime you get on the back of a horse there is some danger -- even if you're taking a trail ride. Have you seen the steeplechase races in England? Now some of those amateur rides do risk their lives for small purses.

Galloping at a steady pace on a wide open turf course, but not flat out sprinting, is not nearly as dangerous as riding in the KY Derby. Hell, I've galloped on horseback plenty of times and I'm not even a jockey and I weigh a helluva lot more than jockey. Have you ever seen some of the weights steeplechase horses carry? It's more than a 150 pounds sometimes. It's way more than a dash horse would carry.

Further to your point about being dangerous, in the old days of flat heat races jockey skill wasn't even a big factor because the horses basically galloped at a steady pace and perhaps sprinted near the wire. The horse did all the work. The jock was just along for the ride and to encourage the horse to keep up the pace and stay inside the boundries.

If you really think racing is cruel then you should join PETA. They would love to take up your cause. In fact, I told one guy in the Keeneland thread who was upset by the takeout increase he should call PETA and have them protest at the entrance to Keeneland. That would help kill handle.

Horses are a lot tougher than you think. Lewis and Clark reported one of their horses falling over a ledge and tumbling (hundreds?) of feet head over heels. They couldn't believe it got up and walked away uninjured. They also reported riding their horses over 100 miles in one night to escape a band of Indians after they killed one of the Indians.

I saw a deer run into the side of a car the day before yesterday. The car was traveling at highway speed. The deer couldn't stop and slid head first into the rear quarter panel. It spun around and got knocked to the ground. But it jumped up and ran away up a hill. It was scary and weird. But it didn't get killed.

To reiterate, if you condition the horses properly distance won't be dangerous.

http://www.horseracing.com/types-of-horse-racing/endurance/

I appreciate you taking time to post a response to my post. It shows you care. I welcome your criticism, but if you are just here to do name calling then it's not that helpful. What solutions are you doing to try to improve racing for horseplayers? Maybe I can borrow some of your ideas for BLD?!

[highnote]

So just to recap, we're talking about leasing farm land in a rural area, and paying for that farmer to maintain the track with his own tractor. There will be no grandstand, no starting gate, no crowds, and presumably little to no amenities.

I think you've got that just about correct.


Are you budgeting money for a totalizator company?

Not yet. Needs to be studied more to see what all the options are. This is a big job for one person. If someone is crazy enough to offer to jump in and help then maybe things will move along as fast as the negative posters in this thread would like to see them move.

I wonder if the negative posters are racetrack shills or just sourpusses.

You can sell the signal to ADWs, but you still need a conduit for ADW money to get into your pools. You also need a totalizator to be able to calculate odds leading up to the race, lock betting on time, and calculate prices after each race finishes.

Right. The pool will be needed to be aggregated somewhere.

I used to bet an OTB that took the NYRA signal but the OTB pools and NYRA pools were not co-mingled. There were a lot of mispricings to exploit. I had some nice scores back then.

For the people who do show up, how will they bet?

By cell phone I presume. We will not have on-track betting.

Plus you'll need electricity and internet access.

Not much problem there. Electricity infrastructure is just about everywhere a track would be built. Cell phone service is available most places.

If you are going to have betting machines on-track, will you have tellers as well, or only self service?

No on-track betting. Moot.

If you're going to export your signal to ADWs, people need to be able to watch the race online. How are you broadcasting a video signal? Again you're talking about a decent amount of equipment, electricity, networking, etc. Or will someone with a GoPro just stream the races for free online?

It might only be audio at first. I used to bet English racing and could only hear the call over the internet. At the OTB I used to go to there was no video -- only the live call.



After a day of racing with $2.5k in handle from TVG, and $4k from XpressBet, $3k from TwinSpires, etc...you need to be able to settle up with all of these entities. Are you hiring accountants for this, or paying for a third party service that specializes in pari-mutuel accounting? Neither option is cheap.

I doubt those entities would be interested. All I know is that it's a big world out there.

Even if you were able to address all of the items we're talking about, and even if this bastardized track met all of the requirements to be granted a racing license from a state commission...which are both long shots....you still need people to bet on it.

Definitely a long shot. It might be too daunting of a task. That's ok. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I can't speak for everyone here, but my bankroll is only so big, and even if the takeout was 0%, I can't see myself spending any of it on flag-drop heat races between $500 horses on a shoddy track in the middle of a farm. You're cutting way too many corners for this to be an appealing product to players - which is the entire point.


I can see why you wouldn't bet on races over a shoddy track, but this track would not be shoddy. Making a good quality turf track is probably the easiest part of the process.

If the races are competitive, with large fields who cares how cheap the horses are.

I'll paraphrase Steve Roman -- cheap speed is a valid expression of a horse's genetics. A slower horse is just as worthy of an animal as an expensive horse.

People need to expand their awareness of what is a "horse race" and realize that just because a race is not held at a multi-million dollar racing palace does not mean it has to be less interesting or that slower animals are less worthy.

[elhelmete]

Our $500 horse had never raced. It was as healthy as a newborn.

Horses can run a hundred miles a day. A typical horse can sustain a gallop of two miles. Running 4.5 miles spread out over the course of a day is nothing for horses that have been properly conditioned.

So you need to have enough of these horses conditioned in under a year to support enough racing and gambling on such horses to break even year 1.

I wouldn't bet on these sorts of races if the takeout was 0%.

Further to your point about being dangerous, in the old days of flat heat races jockey skill wasn't even a big factor because the horses basically galloped at a steady pace and perhaps sprinted near the wire. The horse did all the work. The jock was just along for the ride and to encourage the horse to keep up the pace and stay inside the boundries.

this = unbettable races.

Horses are a lot tougher than you think. Lewis and Clark reported one of their horses falling over a ledge and tumbling (hundreds?) of feet head over heels. They couldn't believe it got up and walked away uninjured. They also reported riding their horses over 100 miles in one night to escape a band of Indians after they killed one of the Indians.

I'm certain L&C rode Thoroughbreds. And even if they did...watching horses gallop and trot around = unbettable races.

I saw a deer run into the side of a car the day before yesterday. The car was traveling at highway speed. The deer couldn't stop and slid head first into the rear quarter panel. It spun around and got knocked to the ground. But it jumped up and ran away up a hill. It was scary and weird. But it didn't get killed.

How is this relevant?

I appreciate you taking time to post a response to my post. It shows you care. I welcome your criticism, but if you are just here to do name calling then it's not that helpful. What solutions are you doing to try to improve racing for horseplayers? Maybe I can borrow some of your ideas for BLD?!

IMHO it's sort of crass to suggest you have a new idea for a new racetrack and then basically ask everyone to do your research for you, while simultaneously making nonsensical suggestions...and at the same time suggesting that people who point out obvious, fatal flaws are nothing but shills and naysayers.

But, if you prefer...I'll sign off as Shill & Naysayer.

[AlsoEligible]

After a day of racing with $2.5k in handle from TVG, and $4k from XpressBet, $3k from TwinSpires, etc...you need to be able to settle up with all of these entities. Are you hiring accountants for this, or paying for a third party service that specializes in pari-mutuel accounting? Neither option is cheap.

I doubt those entities would be interested. All I know is that it's a big world out there.

That is a nonsense answer. Did you read the entire question, or just type out the first few words that came to mind and move on?

Doesn't matter who the exact ADWs are, someone is going to be betting on your product, and you're going to have to settle with them.

This was fun for a while, but it's pretty apparent that you're delusional, or intentionally jerking our chains.

BLD will be financed by Equity Crowd Funding. We can get a few investors

http://jtdebolt.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/58506752-300x187.jpg

[highnote]

So you need to have enough of these horses conditioned in under a year to support enough racing and gambling on such horses to break even year 1.

This would be a short meeting. So not a lot of horses would be needed. BLD could not race 5 days per week year round.


I wouldn't bet on these sorts of races if the takeout was 0%.

That's OK. Maybe you're not the target demographic? I wouldn't bet Keeneland if they lowered takeout to 15%. I'm not right demographic for them. You will never get everyone to bet your product. You only need enough. Right now, from what I read on PA all tracks are struggling to generate revenue and horseplayers aren't happy. So I'm suggesting an alternative. Maybe this will never get off the ground. That's OK, too.



I'm certain L&C rode Thoroughbreds. And even if they did...watching horses gallop and trot around = unbettable races.

Match races in 4 mile heats was very popular at one time. There might be a small segment of the betting market that would find this unique races to be of interest. The only way to know is to try.

I'd love to see a contemporary racetrack give it a shot. This would also be an incentive for breeders to put stamina and stoutness back into the breed. That would be beneficial to the breed as a whole.




I saw a deer run into the side of a car the day before yesterday. The car was traveling at highway speed. The deer couldn't stop and slid head first into the rear quarter panel. It spun around and got knocked to the ground. But it jumped up and ran away up a hill. It was scary and weird. But it didn't get killed.
How is this relevant?

Four legged animals like horses are a hell of a lot more durable than you think.



IMHO it's sort of crass to suggest you have a new idea for a new racetrack and then basically ask everyone to do your research for you, while simultaneously making nonsensical suggestions...and at the same time suggesting that people who point out obvious, fatal flaws are nothing but shills and naysayers.

It's called market research. But you're right it's not necessarily good politics to question people's motivations, but I'm only human and trying to do something to help horsesplayers. I apologize. I do appreciate the comments.

But, if you prefer...I'll sign off as Shill & Naysayer.

I was the driving force behind HANA. I kept hearing from so many horseplayers about the problems in the industry and how horseplayers had no voice. When I tried to start HANA many people right here said it would be impossible or a waste of time to start a horseplayers' association. Yet, here were are 5 or 10 years later and HANA is still going strong and still getting criticism the same way it was since its inception.

Starting a racetrack is a lot harder than starting HANA, but not as hard as sending a rocket into space. Now, I'm no Elon Musk, but I know building a horseplayer friendly racetrack is not impossible. It's just a matter of finding the right set of solutions.

Maybe I don't have them, yet, but that's not stopping me from looking for them.

[PoloUK6108]

It would appear that he's getting bored with his own trolljob. :coffee:

[highnote]

That is a nonsense answer. Did you read the entire question, or just type out the first few words that came to mind and move on?

Probably both.

Doesn't matter who the exact ADWs are, someone is going to be betting on your product, and you're going to have to settle with them.

That's true. I am not as familiar with this part of the product chain. I need to get out and talk to owners and managers of ADWs to find out if they are willing to take the signal and walk me through the process. Or else, a partner is needed who has experience on that end of the business. It's rare that a person knows everything about everything. Although, here on PA there are more of them than in the general population. :D

This was fun for a while, but it's pretty apparent that you're delusional, or intentionally jerking our chains.

I'm serious, but I'm not going to throw away money if there is no interest in the product. I have to be convinced it is going to work before I can convince horseplayer investors to invest their hard earned dollars.

All I can do at this point is imagine scenarios, try them out, get feedback from horseplayers, and then iterate on the idea or pivot in a different direction.

Startup businesses are not the same as General Electric building a new factory to make washers and dryers. They have a supply chain and marketing chain in place so they can make pretty good predictions about sales.

With a startup there is no roadmap. You can have a concept and a general direction, but that's about it.

And if it was easy it would have been done by now.

[highnote]

I found another option:

It might be possible to raise money by simultaneously using Reg CF / Reg D (560c) securities that would allow both accredited and non-accredited investors to participate in a racetrack investment. This would allow more than $1 million to be raised.

It's hard to say if the risk of loss is greater by raising more money or if there is less risk.

With less money raised there is less to lose, but you have to make every penny count.

By raising a lot of money it is easy to overspend on the wrong things. The first law of economics is the more you make the more you spend.

https://www.sec.gov/rules/final/2015/33-9974.pdf

http://www.pr.com/press-release/671436

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I found another option:

It might be possible to raise money by simultaneously using Reg CF / Reg D (560c) securities that would allow both accredited and non-accredited investors to participate in a racetrack investment. This would allow more than $1 million to be raised.

It's hard to say if the risk of loss is greater by raising more money or if there is less risk.

With less money raised there is less to lose, but you have to make every penny count.

By raising a lot of money it is easy to overspend on the wrong things. The first law of economics is the more you make the more you spend.

https://www.sec.gov/rules/final/2015/33-9974.pdf

http://www.pr.com/press-release/671436


Lincoln, NE is ready (again) for another racetrack.

Lack some funding, but have the site to make a beautiful 1 mile track.

If you want to bring it. Bring it.

[baconswitchfarm]

[QUOTE=highnote;2208881

It's hard to say if the risk of loss is greater by raising more money or if there is less risk.[/QUOTE]



The risk of loss is the same . 100%

[Fager Fan]

Ok, let's go over your plan to this stage:

You want to find some cheap land in the middle of nowhere, build no barns or grandstand, build no track surfaces but have the horses run over the natural terrain, buy a bunch of $500 horses, make them run 4 mile heats, and pay about 10 trainers to train them who'll maybe take $1000 a month for their efforts, and find some combo jockeys/exercise riders/grooms who'll maybe take $500 a month for theirs, and then you expect that you'll open your gate and find a hungry mob of bettors throwing money your way because you've got low takeout.

Is this about right?

[elhelmete]

There have recently been a couple of crowdfunded horse ownership groups. I don't think they raised more than $200k.

Elon Musk, not crowdfunded, has burned through how many hundreds of millions of $ and is yet to make a profit?

[highnote]

The risk of loss is the same . 100%

Yes. That's correct on a probability basis. On a monetary basis, you can only lose $1 million if you raise a million. Or you can lose $2 million if you raise $2 million.

[highnote]

Ok, let's go over your plan to this stage:

You want to find some cheap land in the middle of nowhere, build no barns or grandstand, build no track surfaces but have the horses run over the natural terrain, buy a bunch of $500 horses, make them run 4 mile heats, and pay about 10 trainers to train them who'll maybe take $1000 a month for their efforts, and find some combo jockeys/exercise riders/grooms who'll maybe take $500 a month for theirs, and then you expect that you'll open your gate and find a hungry mob of bettors throwing money your way because you've got low takeout.

Is this about right?

First of all, I appreciate your comments. But you'd be a horrible salesperson for this track! :D

"cheap land", "middle of nowhere", "build no barns", "build no track surfaces", "hungry mob of bettors". That is a very half glass full way of looking at things.

I would spin it like this:

"A fair priced piece of land (bought or leased) would be needed to be found near a population center. The track would be built in the tradition of English country racecourses. The racing would return bettors to days of old where heats of four mile races were run by horses that were cherished for carrying their speed over a distance of ground."

The signal would be distributed for bettors worldwide to enjoy. The attraction would be the uniqueness and novelty of the racing. Not everyone enjoys a steady diet of 5 horse fields running 6 furlong dirt races.

I, for one, would love to bet on horses running, say, a mile and five eighths over an undulating turf course that might have a left and right hand turn. Hell, maybe we will even have them run clockwise. :)

The nature of the racing would depend on how much can be raised.

Some English racecourses hold racing one or two days per year once or twice per year. Remember, we're not trying to compete with NYRA. We're challenging ourselves to create a racetrack that is built, owned, and operated by and for horseplayers.

If racing is held just a couple of days per year twice per year then it should be possible to get more horses to ship in for a festival type of racing. Barns would not be needed as the horses will be housed in the owners' trailers. This is the way it's down at the big annual horse show in my town.

If a million dollars can be raised then that is one constraint.

If more than a million can be raised then of course there are more options.

The hardest part will be to raise the money. But even if a million can be raised it will still be a challenge to create a viable product.

If anyone has a better idea, besides not doing it at all, then have at it!

[highnote]

Lincoln, NE is ready (again) for another racetrack.

Lack some funding, but have the site to make a beautiful 1 mile track.

If you want to bring it. Bring it.

I love Nebraska. One of my favorites states!

One thing NE has is plenty of land. I would think the land is fairly pricey unless you go farther west beyond Omaha and near the sand hills where it is not as productive for growing crops.

What are land prices like around Lincoln? Off the top of my head I don't know how many acres you'd need for a 1 mile track. Any idea?

[highnote]

There have recently been a couple of crowdfunded horse ownership groups. I don't think they raised more than $200k.

Elon Musk, not crowdfunded, has burned through how many hundreds of millions of $ and is yet to make a profit?

I started a horse ownership syndicate several years ago. As I said earlier, our first winner was purchased privately for $500. We only had 6 members.

It would probably require a 1,000 members to raise $1 million. Some might put up $10,000 each while others would put up $100.

There is no guarantee a horseplayer owned track would turn a profit right away. Like any business it takes time to build it up.

How long did it take Amazon to make a profit? Has Bezos ever turned a profit?

[AlsoEligible]

Has Bezos ever turned a profit?

You mean the guy who held the title of richest man in the world last month, with a net worth of $90 billion?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes, he's turned a profit.

[highnote]

You mean the guy who held the title of richest man in the world last month, with a net worth of $90 billion?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes, he's turned a profit.

Turns out Amazon has 8 straight quarters of profit.

How many years did it go before turning a profit?

This article might be a little dated, but it says 20 years had already passed and Amazon hadn't turned a profit:

http://www.ibtimes.com/amazon-nearly-20-years-business-it-still-doesnt-make-money-investors-dont-seem-care-1513368

I imagine Bezos took a lot more flack from naysayers than I ever will, but who is getting the last laugh now -- one of the richest men in the world.

[toddbowker]

First of all, I appreciate your comments. But you'd be a horrible salesperson for this track! :D

"cheap land", "middle of nowhere", "build no barns", "build no track surfaces", "hungry mob of bettors". That is a very half glass full way of looking at things.

I would spin it like this:

"A fair priced piece of land (bought or leased) would be needed to be found near a population center. The track would be built in the tradition of English country racecourses. The racing would return bettors to days of old where heats of four mile races were run by horses that were cherished for carrying their speed over a distance of ground."

The signal would be distributed for bettors worldwide to enjoy. The attraction would be the uniqueness and novelty of the racing. Not everyone enjoys a steady diet of 5 horse fields running 6 furlong dirt races.

I, for one, would love to bet on horses running, say, a mile and five eighths over an undulating turf course that might have a left and right hand turn. Hell, maybe we will even have them run clockwise. :)

The nature of the racing would depend on how much can be raised.

Some English racecourses hold racing one or two days per year once or twice per year. Remember, we're not trying to compete with NYRA. We're challenging ourselves to create a racetrack that is built, owned, and operated by and for horseplayers.

If racing is held just a couple of days per year twice per year then it should be possible to get more horses to ship in for a festival type of racing. Barns would not be needed as the horses will be housed in the owners' trailers. This is the way it's down at the big annual horse show in my town.

If a million dollars can be raised then that is one constraint.

If more than a million can be raised then of course there are more options.

The hardest part will be to raise the money. But even if a million can be raised it will still be a challenge to create a viable product.

If anyone has a better idea, besides not doing it at all, then have at it!

That track is already built (well other than the 4 mile races). It's called Kentucky Downs.

[highnote]

That track is already built (well other than the 4 mile races). It's called Kentucky Downs.

And isnt it the number one rated track by HANA?

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I love Nebraska. One of my favorites states!

One thing NE has is plenty of land. I would think the land is fairly pricey unless you go farther west beyond Omaha and near the sand hills where it is not as productive for growing crops.

What are land prices like around Lincoln? Off the top of my head I don't know how many acres you'd need for a 1 mile track. Any idea?

Land is already there.

When they tore down the eyesore that was State Fair Park, they built a new venue (per say) in Southwest Lincoln. It is a great simulcasting spot, with intentions to be a full racetrack.

Just lack funding right now, but they have the map ready for a 1 mile racetrack ready to go. And as I said, the land is already there.

It really is a great site.

[jimmyb]

Land is already there.

When they tore down the eyesore that was State Fair Park, they built a new venue (per say) in Southwest Lincoln. It is a great simulcasting spot, with intentions to be a full racetrack.

Just lack funding right now, but they have the map ready for a 1 mile racetrack ready to go. And as I said, the land is already there.

It really is a great site.

What would be the cost to partner in, in an already functioning simulcast venue? Does the state own the property? Are they leasing it out or is it privatly owned?

[Lemon Drop Husker]

What would be the cost to partner in, in an already functioning simulcast venue? Does the state own the property? Are they leasing it out or is it privatly owned?

Excellent questions.

Venue/property is no longer state owned. Investments thus far own the current place. Thus, privately owned, per say.

I'm not rich enough to look into it much further, but I would if I could.

I can certainly hook you up with people if you are truly interested.

[FakeNameChanged]

I love Nebraska. One of my favorites states!

One thing NE has is plenty of land. I would think the land is fairly pricey unless you go farther west beyond Omaha and near the sand hills where it is not as productive for growing crops.

What are land prices like around Lincoln? Off the top of my head I don't know how many acres you'd need for a 1 mile track. Any idea?
For a one mile oval track, with 40 foot width, you'd need 47.3 acres just for the track alone. That's assuming you'd get a rectangular piece of land that measures 2240' x 920' or 2,060,800 sq. feet. Of course, positioning, easement to boundaries, best spot for drainage, double that number at a minimum. Quadrupling it to 200 acres is probably more likely. I seem to remember that 400 acres for some of the existing tracks.

[highnote]

Excellent questions.

Venue/property is no longer state owned. Investments thus far own the current place. Thus, privately owned, per say.

I'm not rich enough to look into it much further, but I would if I could.

I can certainly hook you up with people if you are truly interested.

It couldn't hurt to talk to them. I am certain a lot could be learned even if a deal was not struck. Then again until you talk to them you don't know their motivations and how eager they are or are not to strike a deal.

Can you connect me with them? Send me a private message with their contact info? In the meantime I will look for the place online. I am traveling today but will look when I get home.

[highnote]

For a one mile oval track, with 40 foot width, you'd need 47.3 acres just for the track alone. That's assuming you'd get a rectangular piece of land that measures 2240' x 920' or 2,060,800 sq. feet. Of course, positioning, easement to boundaries, best spot for drainage, double that number at a minimum. Quadrupling it to 200 acres is probably more likely. I seem to remember that 400 acres for some of the existing tracks.

I figured 40-50 acres is probably the minimum. I know people who race at mountaineer who bought a beautiful horse farm for $500 per acre at a bankruptcy auction. $2,000 per acre for undeveloped land might be possible. That's only $100,000 for 50 acres. $5,000 per acre is still only a quarter acre.

[highnote]

Also, if the track owned 50 or 100 acres there might be ways to generate revenue when the track is not conducting races.

[redlandb]

I think you can lease Les Bois in Boise, Idaho for $1. There are TONS of fair ground tracks that meet your needs, for free.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I figured 40-50 acres is probably the minimum. I know people who race at mountaineer who bought a beautiful horse farm for $500 per acre at a bankruptcy auction. $2,000 per acre for undeveloped land might be possible. That's only $100,000 for 50 acres. $5,000 per acre is still only a quarter acre.

1/4 mile lot at minimum. More than sure there is 300 acres of land to work with including an already established, clean and functioning simulcasting unit.

If "need" be, you could 'buy' some more land to make it a square mile .

Hell. I'm working on it. I'll get the right people your way if you are truly interested, and I'll get out there tomorrow to send you some pics. :ThmbUp:

[jimmyb]

1/4 mile lot at minimum. More than sure there is 300 acres of land to work with including an already established, clean and functioning simulcasting unit.

If "need" be, you could 'buy' some more land to make it a square mile .

Hell. I'm working on it. I'll get the right people your way if you are truly interested, and I'll get out there tomorrow to send you some pics. :ThmbUp:

I can see issues. From what I've read, the Winnebago Tribe of Nebraska also wants to build a track?

http://journalstar.com/news/state-and-regional/nebraska/ho-chunk-modeling-new-horse-track-after-lincoln-race-course/article_efa4995d-2595-5834-8726-2fa48e4db835.html

[highnote]

1/4 mile lot at minimum. More than sure there is 300 acres of land to work with including an already established, clean and functioning simulcasting unit.

If "need" be, you could 'buy' some more land to make it a square mile .

Hell. I'm working on it. I'll get the right people your way if you are truly interested, and I'll get out there tomorrow to send you some pics. :ThmbUp:

Pics would be great. Big concern is trying to run the same kind of meet as every other track. Other tracks have 50 years experience and can't make it without slots. The edge BLD would have is uniqueness.

Do the Indians have deep pockets from casino revenue?

[jimmyb]

Pics would be great. Big concern is trying to run the same kind of meet as every other track. Other tracks have 50 years experience and can't make it without slots. The edge BLD would have is uniqueness.

Do the Indians have deep pockets from casino revenue?


It;s my understanding unless it's tribal land they are subjesct to the same business rules and tax structure as anyone.



Federal income taxes are not levied on income from trust lands held for them by the U.S.
State income taxes are not paid on income earned on a federal Indian reservation.
State sales taxes are not paid by Indians on transactions made on a federal Indian reservation.
Local property taxes are not paid on reservation or trust land
Native Americans are not usually inclined to include non-Natives in business endeavors

[highnote]

I can see issues. From what I've read, the Winnebago Tribe of Nebraska also wants to build a track?

http://journalstar.com/news/state-and-regional/nebraska/ho-chunk-modeling-new-horse-track-after-lincoln-race-course/article_efa4995d-2595-5834-8726-2fa48e4db835.html

Interesting article. Also interesting are the headlines for the other gambling related articles. Lots of opposition to the expansion of gambling, tribal members are calling for an indictment of some tribal leaders, and a high number of race horses are testing positive for illegal drugs.

You gotta love the gambling business. :bang:

By NOT allowing on-track gambling on the BLD races it should be easier to get the track up and running.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Follow the current Florida model. Find the land, partner with one of the quasi horsemens groups and run two horse match races. I think you need five to be entered, but they always scratch.

Open up a casino. Short term you rake in the dough, then can fund a full scale operation. Call it "Upsand Downs" :pound:

Forgot what book I saw that in haha

[RunForTheRoses]

You initially made it sound like you had a model and a plan for operation. I guess I was wrong.

Good luck.

I'm reminded of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM

I just posted that, will delete, it is what I thought of too LOL

[highnote]

Follow the current Florida model. Find the land, partner with one of the quasi horsemens groups and run two horse match races. I think you need five to be entered, but they always scratch.

Open up a casino. Short term you rake in the dough, then can fund a full scale operation. Call it "Upsand Downs" :pound:

Forgot what book I saw that in haha

"Upside Downs" :pound: That's good!

I read that article about the Florida group trying to build a short track for racing and then build the casino around it. I hope it works out for them. Who loses money owning a casino?

NYC OTB was criticized by Mayor Bloomberg for the being the only bookie in the history of the world that couldn't make money, but that's a different story. :D

[toddbowker]

Excellent questions.

Venue/property is no longer state owned. Investments thus far own the current place. Thus, privately owned, per say.

I'm not rich enough to look into it much further, but I would if I could.

I can certainly hook you up with people if you are truly interested.Would be a great way to throw away your money if you had it. Racing licenses in Nebraska have to be held by agricultural societies or not-for-profit entities that promote livestock or horse breeding.

2-1204.
Horseracing; licenses; applications.

The Nebraska State Fair Board, a county fair board, a county agricultural society for the improvement of agriculture organized under the County Agricultural Society Act, or a corporation or association of persons organized and carried on for civic purposes or which conducts a livestock exposition for the promotion of the livestock or horse-breeding industries of the state and which does not permit its members to derive personal profit from its activities by way of dividends or otherwise may apply to the State Racing Commission for a license to conduct horseracing at a designated place within the state.

The simulcast venue in Lincoln is owned by the Nebraska HBPA, which also owns Horsemen's Park.

[highnote]

Would be a great way to throw away your money if you had it. Racing licenses in Nebraska have to be held by agricultural societies or not-for-profit entities that promote livestock or horse breeding.



Like most government agencies there are good and bad attributes.

It's really, really, really, hard to do anything innovative or even outside-the-box in racing because the organizations that run it are so deeply set in their ways. Too often, 19th century rules are being applied in the 21st century.

Rules can be changed and exceptions can be made. How much can get done depends on how much money is at stake and whose feathers get ruffled and whose get shined? How many court battles do you want to fight?

Building and running a new racetrack is not easy. If it was, there would be a new one up and running by now.

It helps to have boots on the ground in the location of the track. It's hard to live 1,000 miles away and try to make things happen. You could work 16 hours per day for the next two years and still might not get a track up and running. And then, even if you did, it could fail. This is why all the big startups happen in Silicon Valley and not in the Midwest. Silicon Valley thrives on innovation and disruption and eventually those companies gain great power and influence over the rest of the population -- apple, uber, and facebook come to mind.

I love Nebraska and I love the idea of racing in the state, but when the deck are so stacked against the small racetrack operator, why bother? The racing commission has created such a high barrier to entry that the failure for a small racetrack operator is virtually guaranteed. Hell, it's almost impossible to a new track off the ground! Who benefits from this? Follow the money, I always say.

Starting a new racetrack is kind of like betting races with high takeouts and then the track raises them even higher. It gets to the point where you ask, why bother betting? If you can't get a big rebate there is no point in trying to compete. You spin your wheels at best or knock your head against a brick wall at worst. :bang:

I don't blame the commission and those with vested interests from keeping startups out of the game. There are only so many pieces of pie to go around and the pie keeps shrinking. Eventually, it will be gone and even the racing commission won't be needed. It might be a while, but unless there are changes, I don't see a bright future. Sad.

[toddbowker]

State Law, not Racing Commission Rule.

Nebraska is a very conservative State as far as gambling goes. They have shot down Instant Racing, and ADWs. I was shocked they allowed Keno at the tracks, but that's about as far as they are going to let it get I'm afraid. Meanwhile all the gambling money goes to the casino in Council Bluffs.

I have been a part of the startup of Canterbury Park (twice), Prairie Meadows, Will Rogers Downs, and Colonial Downs. Have also worked on license applications for others. I did the start-up of AmericaTab from just a phone room, to making it one of the largest ADWs by the time I left, and consulted with Churchill on the startup of TwinSpires.

I have a lot of experience in start-ups. :bang:

Best advice I have for you after going through all of those. Don't do it.

Well, unless Georgia finally passes parimutuel. Atlanta would be the only market I would even attempt to build a new racetrack in now.

[highnote]

State Law, not Racing Commission Rule.

Nebraska is a very conservative State as far as gambling goes. They have shot down Instant Racing, and ADWs. I was shocked they allowed Keno at the tracks, but that's about as far as they are going to let it get I'm afraid. Meanwhile all the gambling money goes to the casino in Council Bluffs.

I have been a part of the startup of Canterbury Park (twice), Prairie Meadows, Will Rogers Downs, and Colonial Downs. Have also worked on license applications for others. I did the start-up of AmericaTab from just a phone room, to making it one of the largest ADWs by the time I left, and consulted with Churchill on the startup of TwinSpires.

I have a lot of experience in start-ups. :bang:

Best advice I have for you after going through all of those. Don't do it.

Well, unless Georgia finally passes parimutuel. Atlanta would be the only market I would even attempt to build a new racetrack in now.

I have never done a racing startup -- unless you call the horse racing syndicate I started a startup. That was small potatoes.

I tried to raise money for a betting exchange back in 1998 after I got the idea at the Churchill Down Breeders' Cup, but the idea was at least 10 years ahead of what the U.S. market was ready for. There was no way any racing jurisdiction was going to allow exchange betting in the year 2000.

The only way a small time racetrack can be done profitably in my estimation is to find a jurisdiction that really wants to work with the track founders to make it happen. There is no point in fighting with established players. That's too much of a waste of time. Too often state commissions are a buffer between the established players and the newcomers. The barrier to entry is too difficult. Let's face it, innovation is a problem in racing. 5 and 6 horse fields racing 6 furlongs is not interesting racing.

The other problem with starting a racetrack is that there is not much money in it. The business is not scalable. How many billionaires are there than made their billions by building racetracks?

There are so many great opportunities in the world. Why reinvent the player piano? :D

[jimmyb]

State Law, not Racing Commission Rule.

Nebraska is a very conservative State as far as gambling goes. They have shot down Instant Racing, and ADWs. I was shocked they allowed Keno at the tracks, but that's about as far as they are going to let it get I'm afraid. Meanwhile all the gambling money goes to the casino in Council Bluffs.

I have been a part of the startup of Canterbury Park (twice), Prairie Meadows, Will Rogers Downs, and Colonial Downs. Have also worked on license applications for others. I did the start-up of AmericaTab from just a phone room, to making it one of the largest ADWs by the time I left, and consulted with Churchill on the startup of TwinSpires.

I have a lot of experience in start-ups. :bang:
Best advice I have for you after going through all of those. Don't do it.

Well, unless Georgia finally passes parimutuel. Atlanta would be the only market I would even attempt to build a new racetrack in now.

Best advice of the thread from the voice of experience.

[highnote]

I found out that in Ohio they can hold barrel races without a permit.

It looks like permits are only needed if pari-mutuel racing is staged, but I am not certain.

It makes sense that if there is no on-track betting on the races then the races might not be governed by the pari-mutuel racetrack laws. If there is no betting then it's just a private event.

If BLD was to sell its signal to someone out of the country who wanted to buy it then the money from the sale of the signal could be used to fund the operations of the track.

I understand why the Ohio Racing Commission and other racing commissions in other states exist. There is a lot that can go wrong and there are a lot of cheaters and unscrupulous people in the world.

[JerryBoyle]

Best advice of the thread from the voice of experience.

It's amazing to me that, given all the complaining I see throughout PA about the current state of the sport, someone proposes a thought experiment on creating a better track for horse players, and 80% of responses are immediately negative/skeptical/screaming "don't do this, idiot!". So we simultaneously think the sport is in rapid decline, but there's no way to improve?

[highnote]

It's amazing to me that, given all the complaining I see throughout PA about the current state of the sport, someone proposes a thought experiment on creating a better track for horse players, and 80% of responses are immediately negative/skeptical/screaming "don't do this, idiot!". So we simultaneously think the sport is in rapid decline, but there's no way to improve?

There are samurai and there are rice pickers. The world needs both. It is dangerous and lonely being a samurai.